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View Full Version : White Mantle Religion........so sure are you?



Dunnoir
21-03-2006, 23:34
After the completion of the Gates of Kryta mission earlier today, one person in the group decided to watch the entire cutscene. I toyed with the idea of using this time to go and get a drink, but decided i couldnt be bothered, and im rather glad i didnt. During the cutscene, we see 3 White Mantle people outside a tomb or building of some sort (i forget the name). One feels the need to announce that the artifact she holds is indeed the Scepter of Orr, and one of her guards is apparently quite grateful, as he exclaims "Thank Dwayna". Not Thank the Unseen Ones, or Thank Saul or anything else related to the White Mantle religion, but he instead showed his thanks to one of the Old Gods.

Maybe Im reading too much into this, but I only just realised what it was he said after the 7th or so time of watching that scene, and it just made me realise what you can miss.

Quintus Antonius
21-03-2006, 23:48
Have you ever heard an atheist say "Oh my God" or "Thank God"? I have, that doesn't mean they worship the suggested deity, it is just a common phrase. In Tyria, the concept of the Christian God does not exist, and thus, they would not say "Thank God". Perhaps "Thank gods" would be appropiate, but Dwayna is the goddess of serenity and such, probably a favorite when looking for mercy, and thus, they say "Thank Dwayna".

It's also important to note that the White Mantle has been around for less than a decade, publically around for less than three years. If a saying such as "Thank Dwayna" was used for hundreds of years, and became part of the vernacular, then it will be used, regardless of one's religious persuasion. Also, not everyone in Kryta worships the White Mantle, and since the White Mantle outlawed the Old Gods, and pretty much oppress anyone who doesn't worship the Unseen Ones, it makes sense a few people who still believe in the Old Gods would pay lip service to the new Unseen Ones just to feed their families.

Another possibility is that the person in question was a member of the Shining Blade. We know they have people imbedded in the White Mantle. Maybe he let his cover slip, but I think thats unlikely.

Perhaps that was a round about way of saying this, but what I'm trying to say is, yes, I am absolutely certain of the White Mantle's religion.

Dunnoir
22-03-2006, 00:16
while i am aware that atheists (including myself) say things like "oh my god", but i have never heard, for example, a muslim say "thank god", as they tend to thank their own god.

To be fair, it didnt occur to me that the Shining Blade could have moles within the Mantle, but then again I cant remember such people being mentioned, and the Blade dont appear to be too large of an organisation, so I guess the thought never occured to me. However, while I agree that someone who didnt believe in the Unseen Ones may pretend to do so so they can get the privilages that come with it, I doubt there would be many people who would have the nerve to do so. I think this because of what we see during some quests, it appears to me that the Mantle are forcing their rule on the people of Kryta, and they seem to have adopted a sort of "Our way. Full Stop" approach to the running of the country, so I find it hard to believe that they would accept someone into their military without being 100% they are loyal to the Unseen Ones, let alone send them on such important missions as finding the Scepter of Orr.

and on a final note, I realise now that the title of the thread may be misleading, as Im not questioning the religion of the Mantle on the whole, but I couldnt think of a title that could sum up the topic I was bringing forward.

Zaxares
22-03-2006, 00:45
Considering that Justiciar Hablion calls the old gods "False Gods" in the Bloodstone Fen cutscene, I think that calling upon the old gods as a member of the White Mantle would be regarded as heresy. Lucky for that zealot that no justiciars were around to hear him. :tongue:

In the cutscene at the end of the Divinity Coast mission, one of the Chosen also cries out "Dwayna protect us!". I suppose that, not being a member of the White Mantle, he could be given a bit more leeway. I do find it odd that a supporter of the Mantle would still call upon the old gods for aid when he ostensibly worships the Unseen Gods now.

Quintus Antonius
22-03-2006, 00:54
while i am aware that atheists (including myself) say things like "oh my god", but i have never heard, for example, a muslim say "thank god", as they tend to thank their own god.

Do you speak Arabic? Islam is one of the Abrahamic religions, meaning that, in essence YHWH is their god, as well as the god of the Jews, and Christians. Their word for YHWH (God) is al-laah. A common Muslim expression is "Thanks be to God", shuk-ran al-laah. They also use the phrase "Honest to God/Oh my God", wal-laah-hee, and "God willing", 'in shaa' al-laah. Even if you hear a Muslim saying "Thank Allah", it is still the same as saying "Thank God" in English. As I explained before, it's the same God, just a different name. Considering God has so many names anyway (God, YHWH, Jehovah, Iehovah, Elohim, Allah), it should come to much of a shock that "Oh my God" is universal. I've even heard Buddists say it, in English, and I don't really feel like Latinizing the Chinese and Japanese translations of that right now...

I'm sorry for the funky bold and italics there, believe me, it was a headache writing all that out in Latin letters, but I don't think the forum supports sandscript, and even if it did, I couldn't make my point if no one could read my writing...


To be fair, it didnt occur to me that the Shining Blade could have moles within the Mantle, but then again I cant remember such people being mentioned, and the Blade dont appear to be too large of an organisation, so I guess the thought never occured to me. However, while I agree that someone who didnt believe in the Unseen Ones may pretend to do so so they can get the privilages that come with it, I doubt there would be many people who would have the nerve to do so. I think this because of what we see during some quests, it appears to me that the Mantle are forcing their rule on the people of Kryta, and they seem to have adopted a sort of "Our way. Full Stop" approach to the running of the country, so I find it hard to believe that they would accept someone into their military without being 100% they are loyal to the Unseen Ones, let alone send them on such important missions as finding the Scepter of Orr.

and on a final note, I realise now that the title of the thread may be misleading, as Im not questioning the religion of the Mantle on the whole, but I couldnt think of a title that could sum up the topic I was bringing forward.

Did you play the story missions in the game? If you did, remember back to how the Shining Blade got the Scepter of Orr: a mole was put in charge of it, and gave it to us at the Temple of the Unseen. So, your assumptions are wrong on two accounts there. 1) the Shining Blade do have spies, and they are mentioned, 2) these spies are put in charge of high level missions. Come on, a good spy won't get caught, and could probably fake his or her way through a few rounds of "Name that Unseen One" enough to prove their "loyality" to the Mantle. But granted, ANet doesn't make the storyline that memorable, due to all the plot twists and unconnected developments, so I definetly understand how, if you played the story missions, you might have missed that. Even the most dedicated researcher has one or two things slip through the cracks sometimes.

Ad Nauseum
22-03-2006, 07:21
Lol... Name the Unseen One.

Perhaps the White Mantle Knight said it out of old habits. A new recruit possibly.
Although it begs the question what is a new recruit doing on something like retrieval of a powerful artifact?

Dunnoir: That is indeed how they run their country. The manuscripts say that only the people that followed the ways of the Unseen ones were granted certain privileges, such as better food and water and such. The ones that followed the "Old ways" weren't allowed such liberties.

ShadowSword
22-03-2006, 08:27
I suspect the White Mantle were pretty stretched. Even in their Temple we see no more than about five and no doubt anyone available was sent out to retrieve such an important artifact. I doubt that there's any heresy in the White Mantle but I'm pretty sure a new recruit, or indeed a spy could slip up and say the wrong thing. Soldiers tend to be pretty informal anyway and without a Justiciar or other official it's not too odd the wrong word would have been said. However I bet if there was an official or he was a senior knight he wouldn't have said that!

Ad Nauseum
22-03-2006, 11:06
And I don't suppose it would be too far of a reach to suggest that some people join the White Mantle under the guide of believing in the Unseen Ones, but really just in it for the fringe benefits (mentioned before).