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ritualistftw
27-03-2006, 13:44
Hi

Great factions weekend where i took a Rt/Mo and a Rt/R on a test drive

This class rocks but does have a couple of annoying points that i think could easily be improved upon

1) The cast time of spirits is very long and leaves you very open to interrupts with no obvious counter i could se than a Rt/Me with mantra of resolve but thats heavy on energy drain when interrupted and needs quite a bit in inspiration magic .

2) the recharge time is a little unfair as once 4 or 5 spirits are set this leaves you running around like a headless chicken for 40/50 secs until skills recharge sometimes

3) There are some GREAT skills that rely on you banishing your own target spirit for bonuses but i did find that in the heat of battle getting a target on the right spirit fast enough was difficult and the spirit was destroyed by warriors etc before i had chance to target and destroy it ,, Surely a better way to manage spirits in this way would to have the spirits show above the skillbar like an enchantment so they could just be selected in this way (maybe even with a number showing health as well so it could be banished at last possible moment ?) this would make skills like this more useful for sure imho of course ;)

the grieving terror
27-03-2006, 14:16
Wow, I also have problems targeting the right spirit promptly in a congested battlefield, and never thought about number 3. This would be an amazing implementation, and not too difficult to do, because, let's face it, you'll never have more than 8 spirits, so it won't take up too much space.

powercozmic
27-03-2006, 14:24
I agree with OP on casting times. Too long. It's more like cast spirits before you aggro a group. And if your sprits die, then you're no good unless u have some good non-spirit spells with you. 5 secs casting time to get another sprit up is troubling cos there are eles who can kill you in 5 secs. lol.

Would be better if all or most spirits have a 2 sec casting time instead of 5 secs. I wouln't think that would unbalance it but would make a lot of ritualists happier.

Alaric Surion
27-03-2006, 14:25
I agree with the spirit problems, where as they cant move and its a big part of the ritualist set. An elle boss or player can easily wipe out a set of spirits with just 1 spell from a long list, plus with the huge recharge time it becomes pretty difficult.

I deff like the idea of number 3

Hun Hawk
27-03-2006, 14:29
I agree. Too long cast times ... although there are counters. (for me optimal would be 2-3sec)

Loquetus
27-03-2006, 14:31
recharge is needed imho
stops them from being spammed

5 sec cast is a bit annoying 3 secs would be better imho
2 being a bit short

GlendaLock
27-03-2006, 14:37
I think the long cast times balance a very potent set of skills. If you want to cast faster try making a secondary Rit to a primary Mesmer with points in fast casting.

Alaric Surion
27-03-2006, 14:38
Im not so much worried about casting time as i am recharge 45-60 seconds hurts when u consider how fast they die

Necromas
27-03-2006, 14:47
Please note that spawning rituals (the spirit summon abilities) are NOT spells, which means that many interrupts will simply not work against them.

Darakus
27-03-2006, 14:47
if spirits could be made slightly less powerful with a bit less life, faster casting and recharge time, and stackable then it would perfect.

Nothing bothers me more than seeing my ally cast a spirit of pain only to see my own crumble because only one spirit of one type is allowed in the area, yes that system fixed the ranger's spirit walls but in the case of the ritualist spirits are unavoidable and as such the system should take it into account and treat them a bit like traps.

ritualistftw
27-03-2006, 15:14
Nothing bothers me more than seeing my ally cast a spirit of pain only to see my own crumble because only one spirit of one type is allowed in the area, yes that system fixed the ranger's spirit walls but in the case of the ritualist spirits are unavoidable and as such the system should take it into account and treat them a bit like traps.

I agree totally spirit of pain is only 19 damage for instance and is very easily destroyed by nukers , even with that spirit stacking its not major nuking

The point about fast casting i already thought of but wouldnt want to lose skillpoints in communing or spawning

to be honest the recharge time is the biggest issue and of course no natural Rt counter to interrupts/esurgers

maybe another idea would be to make spirits slightly stronger to stop such easy wipeout this would justify the huge recharge time somewhat

MixedVariety
27-03-2006, 15:42
Moving this to the Ritualist forum.

Artemis Shadowhawk
27-03-2006, 16:31
You need the long recharge, the long cast, the low damage, and the non-stacking to balance them. Spirits are good.

Darakus
27-03-2006, 19:09
Spirits are enjoyable to play, not good, there are way too many spirits or spirits related skills in the ritualist's bag for him to ignore them and he can't use them without extensive talking to the other ritualist members of his team to check that no they didn't bring the same spirit he did, this will be really easy to do in the beginning of the pve game when you'll only have a few skills to make up your bar :grin:

Add to that the fact that spirits are way too easily disposed of in the current conditions and most ritualist will be looking for skills that do not use them or are unrelated to them to compose their bar before soon (I know I was already looking for alternatives when I thought I might have another ritualist on my team).

XeonVIII
27-03-2006, 19:12
To the poster above the one above mine, I think spirits need a lot of tweaking.

At the start of this weekend I started with as many spirits on my bar as possible. At the end of the weekend I only had 1, for many reasons.

1. They die way too easily for me to waste time with them at all. I can't count all the times that an AoE nuke [maelstrom(sp?) swiriling earth(i think thats the name)] was cast on me right before my spirit was up and annihilated it right after it was done casting. Bye Bye spirit, hello 45 second recharge.

2. Pain doing only 17 damage(11 or 12 into communing I think) thats like someone just doing a default attack with a wand.... kind of a joke if you ask me if you can only have 1 up at a time.

3. Shadowsong only blinding the person it is attacking is alright if you could somehow tell it which person to attack. If it starts attacking an ele that could care less if they are blind or not is just a waste.

4. Union is nice, but if you are under heavy attack its gone almost instantly.

I think that if they are going to keep recharge and cast times the same that they need to have their health and armor increased dramatically.

At the end of the weekend I was all into Channeling and Restoration and Earth magic in my secondary prof for ward against melee. I can do tons of damage with Lightning dmg, but that also got me to thinking why not just go E/Mo. If not only for having that much more energy.

Don't get me wrong here, I like a lot about ritualist(espesially restoration) I had tons of fun with Lively was Naomei. I also know that their are a lot more skills that I have not used or seen, but just from this weekend I'm a little bit dissappointed.

my 2 cents

Necromas
28-03-2006, 03:52
Suggestiong:

For some spirits, have it so if they die shortly after they were spawned, the recharge time is reduced by a certain amount, but obviously this wouldnt effect spirits like union that hurt themselves.

Artemis Shadowhawk
28-03-2006, 05:26
Alright let's take a look at this:
Offensive Spirits
Shadowsong: You have a spirit capable of constantly and indefinately blinding a warrior. Furthermore, it's going to be reapplying blind every 2 seconds so Condition removal isn't as much of a concern.
Dissonance: You can interrupt every 2 seconds. Need I say more?
Disenchantment: You can strip enchantments every 2 seconds. I don't know of any better way to strip enchantments.

These are just some offensive spirits. Saying you can aim these spirits by spamming wand attacks, you can easily choose to disenchant and interrupt monks or blind warriors. Also, if you have Pain and Bloodsong you can add on a good amount of damage. Sure 20 damage on a spirit attack isn't much. Add on Painful Bond for another 18 damage and then multiply it by 4 offensive spirits. 152 armor ignoring damage every 2 seconds including condition effects, interrupts, and enchantment removal. Also, in addition to all that, you still have any actions you want to take. Your spirits are fully independant and this allows you to spam attacks or move around, anything you want.

Yeah, now try to imagine if you could have more than one of each spirit. Double, triple, quadruple that damage output. That doesn't seem overpowered to anyone?

As far as the defensive spirits are concerned. Are you proposing that you should be able to keep Union, Shelter, and Displacement alive endlessly? That means everyone on your team takes 10% damage, 15 less damage, and cannot be hit? That doesn't seem a little overpowered either?

The long durations on casting and recharging are needed. Spirits are far too powerful to have them continuously active or more than one.

Now for some suggestions on lowering recharge times, use Ritual Lord or Serpent's Quickness or both. As far as AoE is concerned, you're thinking of a firestorm or meteor shower or maelstrom cast on your spirits? Look at those skills. Try spreading your spirits out and using that just meh spirit, Dissonance, on some of those eles saying they also have 5 second casts and 30 second recharges.

Finally on the topic of having other players use the same spirits, just ask what they are using and work together to split the load. It'll take just as long as Rangers deciding on spirits before a tombs run. Also, I think after a while we'll start seeing offensive and defensive ritualists builds being asked for in PuGs. You don't neccesarily need 5 spiritualists in one group just as you don't want more than one MM in a group.

I don't think you guys are really using Spirits to their full potential and thus asking for changes that would allow anyone who is actually capable of using spirits to completely break the game and make the most uber-god character ever.

Viti Ligo
28-03-2006, 06:53
I used spirits a lot when I played in the event... I can live with long casting times and long recharge time but what really bothers me is that I found every skill requiring that you select an allied spirit for some purpose almost useless because you really can't select the right one in the heat of the battle. Or if you manage to do so it takes all too long... I could live with solution in the original post or maybe those allied spirits would be in same list as other allies and could be selected from there... anyway this needs some improvment.

Darakus
28-03-2006, 09:35
Alright let's take a look at this:
Offensive Spirits
Shadowsong: You have a spirit capable of constantly and indefinately blinding a warrior. Furthermore, it's going to be reapplying blind every 2 seconds so Condition removal isn't as much of a concern.
Dissonance: You can interrupt every 2 seconds. Need I say more?
Disenchantment: You can strip enchantments every 2 seconds. I don't know of any better way to strip enchantments.

These are just some offensive spirits. Saying you can aim these spirits by spamming wand attacks, you can easily choose to disenchant and interrupt monks or blind warriors. Also, if you have Pain and Bloodsong you can add on a good amount of damage. Sure 20 damage on a spirit attack isn't much. Add on Painful Bond for another 18 damage and then multiply it by 4 offensive spirits. 152 armor ignoring damage every 2 seconds including condition effects, interrupts, and enchantment removal. Also, in addition to all that, you still have any actions you want to take. Your spirits are fully independant and this allows you to spam attacks or move around, anything you want.

Yeah, now try to imagine if you could have more than one of each spirit. Double, triple, quadruple that damage output. That doesn't seem overpowered to anyone?

As far as the defensive spirits are concerned. Are you proposing that you should be able to keep Union, Shelter, and Displacement alive endlessly? That means everyone on your team takes 10% damage, 15 less damage, and cannot be hit? That doesn't seem a little overpowered either?

The long durations on casting and recharging are needed. Spirits are far too powerful to have them continuously active or more than one.

Now for some suggestions on lowering recharge times, use Ritual Lord or Serpent's Quickness or both. As far as AoE is concerned, you're thinking of a firestorm or meteor shower or maelstrom cast on your spirits? Look at those skills. Try spreading your spirits out and using that just meh spirit, Dissonance, on some of those eles saying they also have 5 second casts and 30 second recharges.

Finally on the topic of having other players use the same spirits, just ask what they are using and work together to split the load. It'll take just as long as Rangers deciding on spirits before a tombs run. Also, I think after a while we'll start seeing offensive and defensive ritualists builds being asked for in PuGs. You don't neccesarily need 5 spiritualists in one group just as you don't want more than one MM in a group.

I don't think you guys are really using Spirits to their full potential and thus asking for changes that would allow anyone who is actually capable of using spirits to completely break the game and make the most uber-god character ever.

1) I don't know how it worked for you but spirits were definitely not following my target calls.

2) I'm not saying I should be able to stack my spirits but that allies should be able to cast a spirit of the same type in the same area without mine disappearing and if you read my post completely you would also see that at the same time i recommended to downgrade the spirit's life and overall resistance (although it is alrady quite low since a single elementalist spell will get rid of most spirits in one fell swoop)

3) No we don't want to keep defensive spirits endlessly we just would like to not see them disappear with the use of a single barrage arrow from the opposite team, their cost is 15 mana their invocation is 5 seconds their duration should be slightly bigger than the quarter second they stay into play, you see them as overpowered I see them as worth a lot less than any monk protection spell or any elementalist ward (and you can make the calculation if you like they are)

4) Where load split is concerned you work from the assumption that players have the needed skills to make it, this isn't the case in the beginning of the game nor is it the case for most players who won't bother to acquire the totality of the skills available.

5) you don't need 5 spiritualist in a group but any 8 player group should be able to accomodate 3 players of the same class playing in the same register without too many of an adverse effect this is not the case with spiritualists at the moment

6) we are not asking for changes to make the ritualist uber, if we were we would ask for lowered casting time, cost and recharge time with higher resistance which is not the case, our propositions are base on a re-balance so that multiple ritualists can work together not a powering up skills without discrimination.

I used spirits during the whole FPE and went through the complete content available to me using npcs the fact is that the computer was as efficient with or without me when i relied on spirits because my defensive spirits didn't last at all and my offensive spirits didn't follow calls at all, add to that that even spread about none of them resisted for more than 2 seconds when an ennemy targeted him and you have the reason why i made a few comments on how to improve them. In fact I used the weekend to make a test by casting a ranger spirit and ritualist spirit side by side in front of an ennemy then withdrawing, the ranger spirit for the same cost and same casting time held longer under fire than the ritualist spirit with one difference, the ranger spirit I could cast in the backlines, the ritualist ones i had to cast in the frontlines.

scamPOR
28-03-2006, 11:24
If you change the cast time or recharge spirits will ruin pvp. So stop being so ADD and accept it as it will not change.

Deadly Hawkeye
28-03-2006, 15:16
I think spirits deserve a slightly boost as the new mesmer skill - Unnatural Signet will wipe these spirits out extremely quickly!

Necromas
28-03-2006, 16:04
And think of the pains of going into any of the new random PvP maps with a spirit using build, if just one other person on your team uses the same spirits as you, you will have your build crippled.

Spoil of War
28-03-2006, 16:45
I think the cast and recharge are spot on. However, I think that they should at least let some spirits stack. I mean Pain for example just does direct damage.

They should make it so the same Rt can't cast multiple copies of the same spirit, but if there's 2 I can't see the problem of them casting multiple offensive spirits of the same type. They're having to use up skillbar space like everyone else.

The problem I can see with this, especially early on is that there will be more than one Rt in a party, and a lot of the times they will have to argue/debate/RPS to decide who's going to have to compromise and change the build they like playing with. In PUGs this is going to be especially bad.

Artemis Shadowhawk
28-03-2006, 17:21
1) I don't know how it worked for you but spirits were definitely not following my target calls.They were attacking my targets, if not immediately, they still would.

2) I'm not saying I should be able to stack my spirits but that allies should be able to cast a spirit of the same type in the same area without mine disappearing and if you read my post completely you would also see that at the same time i recommended to downgrade the spirit's life and overall resistance (although it is alrady quite low since a single elementalist spell will get rid of most spirits in one fell swoop)Alright by allowing stacked spirits, you're allowing that 152 damage to multiply by 4 or 5. 608 to 760 damage every 2 seconds? Yeah they only deal 17 damage, but it's 17 additional damage to yourself and you can boon that damage to over 30 with painful bond and multiply it with more spirits. 760 damage every 2 seconds while you can still take your own actions. That doesn't sounds overpowered? I mean it's well and good if you lower their life but nothing will be able to hit them because once they step within spell-range, they get nuked for massive loads of damage including interrupts.

3) No we don't want to keep defensive spirits endlessly we just would like to not see them disappear with the use of a single barrage arrow from the opposite team, their cost is 15 mana their invocation is 5 seconds their duration should be slightly bigger than the quarter second they stay into play, you see them as overpowered I see them as worth a lot less than any monk protection spell or any elementalist ward (and you can make the calculation if you like they are)Let's take Union for example. A level 8 Union spirit with 11 Spawning will have 374 life. That means that it can prevent up to 374 damage for the entire team. If you add something like Signet of Creation and Weapon of Warding or Recuperation to add health regen you get even more out of that. Or just try Soul Twisting Unions to get 374 damage negated every 10 seconds. Sometimes you have to use the synergetic skills too.

4) Where load split is concerned you work from the assumption that players have the needed skills to make it, this isn't the case in the beginning of the game nor is it the case for most players who won't bother to acquire the totality of the skills available.In the FPE it was hard to get skills. In an actual game I usually have 30 or more skill points lying around. It's not hard to get all the spirits or at lease an offensive and defensive build. And in the beginning of the game, how are you going to fit 3-5 ritualists in a 4 man group?

5) you don't need 5 spiritualist in a group but any 8 player group should be able to accomodate 3 players of the same class playing in the same register without too many of an adverse effect this is not the case with spiritualists at the momentSo you think that three MMs in a group is a good idea? But then Necromancers have to get blood skills or curses and play different builds! And that means they have to get other skills, and what if they cant like you stated in (4). You shouldnt have too many class specific characters in anything. Just work through it, it won't be that bad.

6) we are not asking for changes to make the ritualist uber, if we were we would ask for lowered casting time, cost and recharge time with higher resistance which is not the case, our propositions are base on a re-balance so that multiple ritualists can work together not a powering up skills without discrimination.Yes you are. Spirit stacking is well. . . uber.

XeonVIII
28-03-2006, 18:27
What your talking about is the perfect world where we are actually able to get all of our spirits cast without getting interupted, then no one attacks them so they all stay alive for their durations, and are all attacking the same person which I wasn't able to get to work. AND be able to put painful bond on which has a 30 second recharge.

By the time I get 1 or 2 spirits off my spirits and I are under so much attack that I can't do anyting to save them, and they die QUICK

Your perfect world is not what will happen in the game.

mr godspeed
29-03-2006, 07:39
recharge is needed imho
stops them from being spammed

5 sec cast is a bit annoying 3 secs would be better imho
2 being a bit short

you cant spam spirits. I found out that only 1 of the same named spirits may be out at a time. Which sucks cause if you have 2 Rits out there with shadowsong (or whatever) and i cast it first and the other rit doesnt know and cast thiers it kills mine and pops up theirs, it can really mess up your statagey. Henches are worse.

I do agree about the whole selecting spirits thing.

Darakus
29-03-2006, 09:12
Ok I tallied the total damage with 12 in communing and 12 in channeling we get to :


Painful Bond : duration 18 seconds damage 18 for each spirit attack cast 1 second cost 15 recharge 20 (hex)
Bloodsong : duration 126 seconds damage 17 per attack cast 5 seconds cost 15 recharge 60 (spirit)
Dissonance : duration 22 seconds damage 13 per attack cast 5 seconds cost 25 recharge 60(spirit)
Pain : duration 126 seconds damage 17 cast 3 seconds cost 5 recharge 45 (spirit)
Shadowsong : damage - duration 30 seconds cast 5 cost 10 recharge 45 seconds (spirit)

This tallies up for 17 + 13 + 17 + 18*4 = 119 damage every 2 seconds or almost a repetitive spike for 22 seconds so I have to agree with Artemis that if we want the reduced casting time and stacking (which would diminish our shot at being interrupted and would make spirits nice during combat because i'm still of the opinion that it won't be easy to place one at that time) we have to agree on a reduced damage output from those spirits as well as a reduced effectiveness of painful bond moreso than a reduced life for the spirits in question.

Considering stacking in the equation and the fact that this particular combination occupies 5 slots in the skill bar as well as the ease with which spirits can be destroyed I believe that the total damage output of such a combination should turn around 75-80 with 12 in communing and channeling what's your take on it?

On union the sprit reduces the damage by 15 and takes 15 damage whatever the inititial damage is so with a 0 damage hit the spirit still takes 15 damage if he was actually preventing 374 damage I wouldn't be complaining :grin: (in short union is reducing damage by 15 for the next 25 attacks which is equal to 5 seconds top in 8 vs 8)

Considering Shelter there's a skill at least where you have to admit the spirit is underpowered as is, in normal conditions that spirit will prevent up to 12 hits from dealing more than 10 % damage in a fight this will mean about 2 seconds ?

I'm still for a rebalance of spirits to allow stacking but you are right we need a reduced damage output of spirits to allow for the stacking even though they probably won't target the same opponent which means you cannot really count on that spike :D

Nanashi
29-03-2006, 09:14
It's not like rangers don't deal with the same stuff. You can't have a pair of winno or FWs on one side. I'm with Artemis on this, them spirts of pain annoyed the crap out of me as it was in FPE and still haveing three pets all up at once and doing crap that woops the crap out of you.... sorry but I hope they do not stack in the future.

Darakus
29-03-2006, 09:29
It's not like rangers don't deal with the same stuff. You can't have a pair of winno or FWs on one side. I'm with Artemis on this, them spirts of pain annoyed the crap out of me as it was in FPE and still haveing three pets all up at once and doing crap that woops the crap out of you.... sorry but I hope they do not stack in the future.

Its not exactly the same, while usefull in a ranger build spirits are not one of his main weapons, if you want to compare you should look more at traps and imagine that as a trapper your traps where 3 times as powerful as they are now but that to compensate you couldn't stack them they had longer casting times and recharge times. Would you still take traps with you in those conditions? And still the comparison is bad because there are only 4 traps in the ranger's bar.

Goldfish God
29-03-2006, 09:56
This is just a mild idea, instead of directly altering spirits, increase the bonus to health provided by Spawning, or maybe provide an armour bonus too.

The non-stack is just fine for me, it's reasonably easy to do a quick scan of the area to see what allied spirits are present and to not cast them yourself (or stop casting them). Non-stacking would be a bit like allowing multiple hexes of the same spell on a single target.

Having multiple players with the same spirit is an advantage in that it counteracts some of the long reload times since you have two source to produce it. This mainly helps on short duration spirits like Dissonance (around 20 seconds with high att, compared to 60 second reload), or when a binding ritual is interrupted or the spirit killed early.

Pain is one of a few spirits that can actually last longer than their own reload time.

Artemis Shadowhawk
29-03-2006, 15:37
Its not exactly the same, while usefull in a ranger build spirits are not one of his main weapons, if you want to compare you should look more at traps and imagine that as a trapper your traps where 3 times as powerful as they are now but that to compensate you couldn't stack them they had longer casting times and recharge times. Would you still take traps with you in those conditions? And still the comparison is bad because there are only 4 traps in the ranger's bar.Traps are not spirits. It's apples and oranges. Sure you could compare them, but it won't get you anywhere.