View Full Version : Sai daggers should be Blunt Damage
RangerRob
28-03-2006, 10:25
Ok I'm not sure if any of the devs are reading this but I've noticed during the event that Sai daggers have been given Piercing Damage. This is incorrect since Sai are generally not all that sharp, they are not really offensive weapons and were traditionally made for defensive purposes against Sword and Stave.
You are more likely to beat somebody to death with a Sai than stab at them and thus I would suggest they be changed to Blunt Damage.
I was pleased to see that the Jitte sword was correctly given Blunt Damage status, so it would be nice to see the Sai fixed too.
http://forums.gwonline.net/showpost.php?p=3984085&postcount=19
Alaric Surion
28-03-2006, 10:29
Sais could potentially be used as either..while generally not sharp at the tip, they do have a point on them.
Often a warrior would carry several on him, and use them not only to block incomming weapons, but also to pin down his opponents body, using the design of it to either pierce and pin down an oponents foot to the ground, or drive it through their rib cage and into a wall, using it to pin them to it.
Hurray for what fighting must have been like back then.
RangerRob
28-03-2006, 10:31
Yes I know what you mean generally the two prongs by the handle can be sharp(ish) and used to "pin" or other offensive-type moves but I would say their more common use involved defence and bludgeoning people to death.
Hurray for what fighting must have been like back then.
Back then was real fighting, guns are for cowards!! :grin:
Sais should deal poke damage.
MasterServant
28-03-2006, 17:06
Ok I'm not sure if any of the devs are reading this but I've noticed during the event that Sai daggers have been given Piercing Damage. This is incorrect since Sai are generally not all that sharp, they are not really offensive weapons and were traditionally made for defensive purposes against Sword and Stave.
You are more likely to beat somebody to death with a Sai than stab at them and thus I would suggest they be changed to Blunt Damage.
I was pleased to see that the Jitte sword was correctly given Blunt Damage status, so it would be nice to see the Sai fixed too.
http://forums.gwonline.net/showpost.php?p=3984085&postcount=19
Sais are definitely piercing damage. Never watched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Or Daredevil's Electra? Or the lady-fight in The Mummy Returns?
They're the same category as daggers, kunais, kris, and khukris in my book.
amcoolio
28-03-2006, 17:13
I'm not sure making daggers piercing damage is a good idea. Maybe they should have their own class. Otherwise taking "Shields Up!" will pretty much own the entire assassin class.
Sister Tuck
28-03-2006, 17:18
Sais could potentially be used as either..while generally not sharp at the tip, they do have a point on them.
Often a warrior would carry several on him, and use them not only to block incomming weapons, but also to pin down his opponents body, using the design of it to either pierce and pin down an oponents foot to the ground, or drive it through their rib cage and into a wall, using it to pin them to it.
Hurray for what fighting must have been like back then.
As one who has trained in the use of them, sias could be blunt, piercing or slashing damage depending on the type of sia used. Most often they are blunt damage or no damage as they are a deffensive weapon used to block swords or even break them.
This brings me to another point (pardon the pun :happy: ). Why must an assasin have the same weapon in each hand? I was hoping that a dual wield character could have differant weapons in each hand.
azuresun
28-03-2006, 17:18
I agree, sai's should be bludgeoning damage.
Sai are blunt now for training but that doesn't mean they were blunt when they were first being used.
Straying slightly from the topic does it really matter whether something is piercing instead of blunt?
Xie Pei Jie
28-03-2006, 17:29
I agree that duel weilding can be tricky since you don't want someone equiping the best sword and best ax in the game to get the best of everything, but it would be cool if there was some variety in what the offhand weapon was
amcoolio
28-03-2006, 17:31
Yes. Shields Up adds 50 armor vs. Piercing for you and allies in the area.
RangerRob
28-03-2006, 17:31
Sais are definitely piercing damage. Never watched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Or Daredevil's Electra? Or the lady-fight in The Mummy Returns?
You do realise that all those are Western media adaptations of the weapon's traditional use? Believe me, I have two sat here on my shelf, real Sai daggers are usually blunt (or fairly blunt) defensive weapons and any history lesson on Asian warfare (outside of Hollywood fantasy) will support that fact.
Alaric Surion and Sister Tuck are both right in that the weapon could be used to poke or pin depending upon the type of Sai, however all forms of traditional martial arts teach the use of the most common Sai as a defensive weapon with some bashing/poking ability.
Straying slightly from the topic does it really matter whether something is piercing instead of blunt?
Some monsters and armor having different protection against different kinds of damage. One of the necro armors gives +armor against piercing (don't recall which offhand). I've done a little testing and I know that Hydras have a weakness against piercing damage. Rockshot devourers are weak against blunt. You get more damage per hit when a foe has a particular damage weakness.
Sais are definitely piercing damage. Never watched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Or Daredevil's Electra? Or the lady-fight in The Mummy Returns?
Your entire arguement is now, Null and Void. T.V. And movies, and stage fighting are not real, and are very far from truth.
Sai's are Bludgeoning weapons, I have a set, and before anyone tries to cry 'Waaah, Thos eare NEW" No, they really aren't. They're part of an 'antique' weapon's collections.
Keep in mind, Swords, daggers, sai, etc were all still used within the 1900's in Japan.
That is all. I'm leaving before this becomes about who's seen more T.V. than the next guy.
p.s. I'm extactic to find ANet got the Jitte right, and made it blunt weapon.
Sister Tuck
28-03-2006, 18:03
You do realise that all those are Western media adaptations of the weapon's traditional use?
I love how people believe what thet see in movies. I nearly laughed MAO when Electra said her sia's were offensive weapons in the movie. Now to be fair HER sias were somewhat offensive as they had a bladed center spike but......
Movies and shows are just a way of telling a Fictitious story and they will use any means to get that done. Even if they are false.
Kudos to RangerBob for helping to point this out
Malhavoc Adhamar
28-03-2006, 18:13
While yes its basic form is that of a blunt dagger with a crossguard it could be used to stab, defend and throw.
With the central prong shaped as it is, even if if the end was flat, the amount of pressure from a thrust on that one point should be enough to pierce through skin as well as armour.
This being the case the Sai in game should remain piercing.
Why people even care about this is beyond me...
Ok I'm not sure if any of the devs are reading this but I've noticed during the event that Sai daggers have been given Piercing Damage. This is incorrect since Sai are generally not all that sharp, they are not really offensive weapons and were traditionally made for defensive purposes against Sword and Stave.
You are more likely to beat somebody to death with a Sai than stab at them and thus I would suggest they be changed to Blunt Damage.
I was pleased to see that the Jitte sword was correctly given Blunt Damage status, so it would be nice to see the Sai fixed too.
http://forums.gwonline.net/showpost.php?p=3984085&postcount=19
In an RPG isn't blunt the equivilent to a smash attack? Sais are a form quick strike offensive weapons and they are pierceing damage. You don't smack or smash people around, you cut and peirce vital areas with a pair of sais. Blunt would be an attack given to a stick or some heavy weapon that bruises or creates gashes on the body rather than penetrate the skin like one would do with a stabbing motion.
I could take a broom stick, shove it hard enough to peirce a person's body. It doesn't mean it's more of a peircing weapon, than a bludgeoning.
[edit]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v339/Coles/jitte.jpg
This is a Jitte. It's the thing that been mentioned, and it's very much a longer version of the Sai. It is Bludgeon damage(And yes, bludgeon IN GAME). Think of it as a metal stick. You can stab with it yes, but the main and most efficient usage is beating someone, much like modern day police 'extendo's. A sai is a shorter version, designed to be even more defensive.
I could take a broom stick, shove it hard enough to peirce a person's body. It doesn't mean it's more of a peircing weapon, than a bludgeoning.
Nobody would be dumb enough to do that unless if you were fireing it out of some kind of super canon. Sais however are pointed at the tip and to peirce is to penetrate deep over a small area while blunting is to smash or crush.
Sai are NOT pointed at the tip. Theyre Rounded to be Blunt.
Sai are NOT pointed at the tip. Theyre Rounded to be Blunt.
Yeah, if you don't sharpen it. But in a case of thrusting a small projectile that can penetrate directly into a target, it counts as a pierce which has been stated they can fit into both catagories. But I don't see how you smack somebody around just by pokeing them... Sorry but I don't see Sais as being a blunt weapon because blunt is to smack or crush, cause bruises on skin and shatter bones, etc.
While Sais can be defensive and offensive, real assassins used them for close quarters combat which usually involved them sneaking up and performing a back stab of some sort. If things got harry they'd simply wave the weapons around to deflect and continue with the stabbage.
As one who has trained in the use of them, sias could be blunt, piercing or slashing damage depending on the type of sia used. Most often they are blunt damage or no damage as they are a deffensive weapon used to block swords or even break them.
This brings me to another point (pardon the pun :happy: ). Why must an assasin have the same weapon in each hand? I was hoping that a dual wield character could have differant weapons in each hand.
I agree...I suppose they didn't want people getting multiple weapon bonuses, but this could be fixed by making an "offhand dagger" and a normal dagger, so the offhand dagger always has stats like a focus...then again, having a zealous dagger in the offhand wouldn't help that much if you only gain energy in offhand attacks, so it probably wouldn't mess up the balance at all (it may actually work out to be worse for assassins, as two zealous weapons would mean more energy degen, no? And trying to track down 2 separate good daggers that work with a given build may be hard. I think the dev's must've had that in mind when designing them as one weapon.
The nice thing would be that with 2 separate daggers with different mods, you could really tailor your character. With an ice and fire pair for example, you could do ice damage with lead attacks, and then use repeating strike to deal more fire damage...or somesuch. May make for interesting strategies...and flexibility for the class. or think zealous and vampiric...same thing, I need energy I attack normally, I need health, I hit the locusts fury, and spam repeating strike.
You're making unfounded assumptions, and letting your imagination cloud the truth. Because apparently you know what 'real assassins' use Sai for, contradictory to actual weapons training.
Training... usually training doesn't involve killing your master. It's like useing a kindo stick, that has no sharp edges so it is a blunt weapon. Sais, in actual combat have sharp edges just like katanas... makeing it into a slash/pierceing weapon. I may not know personally but just by observation of the weapons themselves and history class, to me it's pretty much self explanitory.
Don't speak in too big of words, you make my head hurt since I haven't had sleep for the past... 15hours. Well I'm just going to agree to disagree. I don't see these weapons in real life nor within game qualifeing as a blunt.
RangerRob
28-03-2006, 21:57
Yeah, if you don't sharpen it. But in a case of thrusting a small projectile that can penetrate directly into a target, it counts as a pierce which has been stated they can fit into both catagories. But I don't see how you smack somebody around just by pokeing them...
Because you are assuming the proper use of Sai when attacking is with the point facing the opponent. Usually the three-pronged (blunt dagger) end of the Sai is purely used for trapping Swords, Staves and other general defensive moves. You attack with the much heavier hilt of the Sai, not stab using the point.
If you have been trained in their use or seen them used by the masters you would see that they will hold the Sai by the handle to defend, then usually spin the Sai in their hands so the "point" is behind their lower arm and the hilt is facing the opponent, their fingers are usually split over and under the cross-bar. It's a quick singular motion which involved spinning the Sai into a reverse position then returning it to it's standard position as you withdraw from the blow.
RangerRob
28-03-2006, 22:16
Ok just to help, here is a link...
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/002/index.html
Notice the positions of the Sai master in the photos. The left image is one of the standard defence postures, the right image is a traditional striking posture.
There is a video of a Sai demonstration on this page, please note the demo is a Kata (set of moves to learn fluidity with the weapon) and thus shows slightly more "piercing" attacks than would normaly happen during a fight. Notice how most of the strikes are hilt-based whilst the defense uses the "blades".
Deus Invictus
28-03-2006, 22:16
Because you are assuming the proper use of Sai when attacking is with the point facing the opponent. Usually the three-pronged (blunt dagger) end of the Sai is purely used for trapping Swords, Staves and other general defensive moves. You attack with the much heavier hilt of the Sai, not stab using the point.
If you have been trained in their use or seen them used by the masters you would see that they will hold the Sai by the handle to defend, then usually spin the Sai in their hands so the "point" is behind their lower arm and the hilt is facing the opponent, their fingers are usually split over and under the cross-bar. It's a quick singular motion which involved spinning the Sai into a reverse position then returning it to it's standard position as you withdraw from the blow.
guys hes correct there is no sence to fight him on it... u do attack with the handle... its not like a-net didn't do their home work... :wink:
Caelus The Fallen
29-03-2006, 00:20
Yeah, if you don't sharpen it. But in a case of thrusting a small projectile that can penetrate directly into a target, it counts as a pierce which has been stated they can fit into both catagories. But I don't see how you smack somebody around just by pokeing them... Sorry but I don't see Sais as being a blunt weapon because blunt is to smack or crush, cause bruises on skin and shatter bones, etc.
While Sais can be defensive and offensive, real assassins used them for close quarters combat which usually involved them sneaking up and performing a back stab of some sort. If things got harry they'd simply wave the weapons around to deflect and continue with the stabbage.
That like saying "hammers are sharp!"
"No they're not"
Yeah, if you don't sharpen them...
The sai's in GuildWars are piercing damage. They are meant to hurt enemies and slay them.
The sai's you practice with at home (or dojo) are probably blunt to avoid injuries.
RangerRob
29-03-2006, 02:30
The sai's in GuildWars are piercing damage. They are meant to hurt enemies and slay them. The sai's you practice with at home (or dojo) are probably blunt to avoid injuries.
Sai are have always been blunt, it's not for practice, that is how they are used in combat and were always used throughout history.
The only stabbing done with Sai was to the eyes for blinding and for body irritation and distraction whilst setting the opponent up for the knockout blows from the hilt. Whilst some warriors did carry sharpened Sai they were generally a slightly different shape and weren't commonly used in that form. If you actually look at the fighting style then you would understand why.
I honestly can't believe what a fantastic job Western cinema and Hollywood has done of distorting historical fact with this weapon. The amount of people I speak with about it who actually believe Sai were used like a standard dagger is astonishing. Those Turtles have got a lot to answer for!! :grin:
Thank you Rob, I gave up trying to convince, when too many anime cliche's were brought in as proof. <3
[edit] Its not even the Original Ninja Turtles! Raphael NEVER used to stab **** with it, he was just always deflecting swords and stuff. And MAYBE once in a while he's stab a -Peice of cloth- to pin someone down.
nightrunner
29-03-2006, 03:57
It's a fantasy game. There's also a hammer skin whose head consists entirely of spikes, but it still deals blunt damage.
I guess it depends mainly on your preference. Any weapon can be used to attack via the hilt as a blunt in this case. But the Sai do have a point to them makeing them capable of finishing stabs or what not.
I'm not baseing this entirely off of western crud, I'm just looking at the daggers and chooseing a form of combat that would utulise that tip of the weapon. The blades are usually long enough to pierce deep and cause eternal bleeding to the point where one, back then, couldn't get proper help. Thus dieing from the strike. Again, I think it falls under the preference table as I would use them mainly for pierceing... maybe the offhand used to defend but my primary hand would definetly be used to pierce for precise strikes.
Thank you Rob, I gave up trying to convince, when too many anime cliche's were brought in as proof. <3
[edit] Its not even the Original Ninja Turtles! Raphael NEVER used to stab **** with it, he was just always deflecting swords and stuff. And MAYBE once in a while he's stab a -Peice of cloth- to pin someone down.
Wait, you have said that we're all baseing this off of movies and cartoons. Ninja Turtles was a cartoon, a child cartoon at that. I highly doubt they would show Raphael stabbing one of the bad dudes right in the heart. So you're acting sort of like those who you mentioned had no clue what they were talking about.
Actually I was defending the old school ninja turtles for not even being that in-accurate. I wasn't using it as proof. There's a difference.
Kagemaru
29-03-2006, 07:53
Sais are definitely piercing damage. Never watched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Or Daredevil's Electra? Or the lady-fight in The Mummy Returns?
They're the same category as daggers, kunais, kris, and khukris in my book.
As a former ninjitsu student, i dont agree that sai are piercing damage. First of all as someone already said in here, sai were used mainly for defense purposes against katanas. The sai where actually hooks, and their actual handle was the the tip, so this clarifies the point that they never ever were sharp. Another fact to prove that they were never sharp is that in all the katas with sai, there you either stab, block or rotate to hit in the face with them but never cut(those who train with them know wat i mean).
So in my opinion yes they can be changed to blunt damage.
Another thing i want to say is that...Anet did very good to make you wield dual sai, and dual kukris. Doesnt make sense in reality to wield one of each:azn:
Ubermancer
29-03-2006, 08:15
I'm not sure making daggers piercing damage is a good idea. Maybe they should have their own class. Otherwise taking "Shields Up!" will pretty much own the entire assassin class.
Err. The vast majority of a Sin's damage is from spells and skills, ie, not pierce. The base pierce damage is minute in comparison.
Err. The vast majority of a Sin's damage is from spells and skills, ie, not pierce. The base pierce damage is minute in comparison.
But doesn't the additional Damage from combo's and the like count as Peircing damage aswell, because the weapon's damage is considered peircing?
RangerRob
29-03-2006, 09:42
But doesn't the additional Damage from combo's and the like count as Peircing damage aswell, because the weapon's damage is considered peircing?
Yes unless the skill changes that damage to a different type deliberately (for example one of the Ele Conjures) then the damage from all the skills will mimic that of the base weapon. Thus it would be piercing still.
Actually Calis, although it's beside the point of our arguement you are right about Raphael when I think about it, he did use his Sai correctly in most episodes, I think in the first movie too?? Bruce Lee also used them correctly in some of his 1970's films. When I used Turtles as an example of Western cinema it was more in jest... the way they used their weapons was actually more realistic than things like Daredevil which are just a complete abhorration of the truth.
Malhavoc Adhamar
29-03-2006, 09:48
Question is: Does this actually matter?
While Cantha is based on Asian culture, who's to say that their verson of the sai isn't sharp and pointy and designed to be used as a piercing weapon rather than a bludgeoning weapon?
If someone asked, it obviously matters to someone doesn't it?
And if Canthan's don't have Sai as we know them, then are they really Sai? Theyre obviously supposed to be based off Real life weapons. When things change about a weapon, what they are changes. Look at swords.. A Katana isn't like a Fiery Dragon sword. They may both be swords, but they're varied, and different in design. And they're acknowledged as such.
RangerRob
29-03-2006, 10:48
Personally it matters to me since I hate seeing inaccuracies in the portrayal of what has always been my favorite weapon since I studied martial arts as a child, but that is a personal thing more than anything else.
In regards to the game, it only matters because people often take armor that is + vs Piercing, it would force people into considering different armor types if Assassin's were able to deal blunt damage too.
GrimShade
29-03-2006, 23:21
The butt of the Sai is blunt damage the front end is piercing damage (while holding with the ‘pointy’ end up). This is the same for many ‘strait’ swords, the butt is for bashing but you don’t see a sword getting anything but slashing damage, when a Gladius is more of a thrusting sword. I didn’t get to see how they are wielded in the game, but in my cynicism I would be the animation included slashing with them which utterly ridiculous.
Other things that are going to upset me: I am also fully expecting to see a thrusting animation on the Katana, as well as it being wielded with a shield. Ever try holding a Shield with a 2 handed sword? I will also bet there is a thrusting animation with the blunt sword as well.
I sympathize with you on this thing, I am still not happy that the long sword skin is used as a 1 handed sword. You should have a second hand above the hilt of that sword. But I don’t expect them to properly animate the different techniques used for each different weapon. If they did I would love this game even more, but it doesn’t seem too realistic of an expectation.
Lastly a thing to think about. When the US was deciding between a curved saber and a strait saber for the cavalry, they chose the strait because it was more effective when thrust. Apparently the curved saber wasn’t as effective when thrust (duh), and they weren’t getting enough damage out of it when slashed. Apparently they forgot to sharpen the edge of the saber (ya try slashing with a wallhanger). A katana is a prime example of what a slashing sword is capable of when sharpened.
Now if you have 2 business ends of a weapon (sai) why would you neglect to make one end as effective as it could be? I imagine the Sai that were really used had a nice point to thrust with as well as the butt end to bash with.
Artemis Shadowhawk
30-03-2006, 03:42
How does the assassin use the sai in-game?
They actually slash like any other weapon they use XD
A katana is a prime example of what a slashing sword is capable of when sharpened.
Great Sword > Katana FTW. Ohhh man the memories of school when I argued this matter with some dude. Him being a hardcore Martial Artist he was, he was so clueless most of the time about what he spoke about. Kept saying that a Katana could slash through iron like it was paper and saying that Knights were slow. Of corse I always favored the ideal honorable Knight over the samurai any day.
Not flameing you, just that comment reminded me of those arguements.
My opinion still stands though. It really does depend on your preference. Me seeing the Sai as a long, pointy, and durable stick it is, I would probably use one as defensive and the other as a pierceing weapon. That's just the way I am, if they change the weapon to blunt... ehhh it'll bother me but I'll live with it after a while.
Even comparing Medieval knights, to Feudal era Samurai is clueless....
It's like Apples, oranges, and which one is the better vegetable. It just doesn't make sense.
And no, it really doesn't stand. A Sai is a Sai, is a Sai, and still is a Sai. Otherwise it isn't a Sai. When you change a weapon to be something entirely different than what it was, it's not longer what it originally was.
The Fact is, thinking from a weapon design stand point. A Sai is uneffective as a stabbing weapon, compared to other stabbing weapons of the era and level of technology.
GrimShade
30-03-2006, 19:14
They actually slash like any other weapon they use XD
Great Sword > Katana FTW. Ohhh man the memories of school when I argued this matter with some dude. Him being a hardcore Martial Artist he was, he was so clueless most of the time about what he spoke about. Kept saying that a Katana could slash through iron like it was paper and saying that Knights were slow. Of corse I always favored the ideal honorable Knight over the samurai any day.
Actually I fully agree with you, give me plate and a Bastard Sword over any Katana and Japanese armor. I was trying to say that a saber should be sharp, and hoping to show what it would be capable by bringing up what a different cavalry sword with the same curved blade was capable of. Guess I didn’t do a very good job.
Divorcing myself from reality, I have given up on if things should be wielded one way or the other. This is a game, and the prime example is I will be having an Assassin with Sai come up and try to hurt my Warrior in his full plate. I really hope he got the points on his Sai small enough to make it through the holes, bashing me with those is only going to make a bit of noise.
My Sweet Revenga
30-03-2006, 19:41
Pretty sure the originals were sharp on the tip. You should be able to hold them on the hilt and stab somebody by punching them, and they would get impaled with the main shaft and the prongs sticking out of the hilt/handles. Having the tip blunt would only make this process more painful..... and quite inefficient as you'd have to be pretty freakin strong to drive a blunt sai into somebody. At least there aren't any sais in Oblivion. They'd get placed in the "blunt" catagory along with axes :shocked:
Zorro QFT: The pointy end.... goes in the other man!
Caelus The Fallen
31-03-2006, 01:05
Sai were never sharp, the reason being that they werent officially weapons. Peasants were not allowed to be armed, yet they naturally wanted to be able to protect themselves, thus many Japanese weapons developed from inoccuous tools and every-day objects. Think nunchaku, tonfa, kama etc.
RangerRob
31-03-2006, 09:52
Sai were never sharp, the reason being that they werent officially weapons. Peasants were not allowed to be armed, yet they naturally wanted to be able to protect themselves, thus many Japanese weapons developed from inoccuous tools and every-day objects. Think nunchaku, tonfa, kama etc.
QFT. Question to all these people who sit here arguing about 'sharp' Sai... have you ever actually seen one outside of Hollywood??
Some Sai have been sharpened in the past and it is true that the Sai has been made 'duller' for training purposes in the modern era, however 'sharpened' Sai were not the norm, they were a niche and it was very rare that people were actually allowed to carry them sharp.
Sai are often called "pronged trungeon" because one of their primary users was the Okinawan police force (and for those who don't know, unmodified trungeons are always blunt, just like Sai). It is widely believed that Sai originated as an agricultural instrument and people were able to carry it for defence in an era where they weren't allowed weapons. They were allowed to carry it because it could not be classed as a weapon due to it's blunt state.
If you are looking at history you will find that there is something like a 1000-1 ratio of Sai that have been found blunt in comparison to those found sharpened (yes the ratio is a guess, but there are many many more blunt antique Sai than sharpened ones). I am not saying that no Sai are never sharp, I am saying that in their unmodified state Sai are not particularly sharp, which is the truth.
I have posted both video and photographic evidence of how Sai were used earlier in this thread and yet people still argue they are the same as daggers...
Even comparing Medieval knights, to Feudal era Samurai is clueless....
It's like Apples, oranges, and which one is the better vegetable. It just doesn't make sense.
And no, it really doesn't stand. A Sai is a Sai, is a Sai, and still is a Sai. Otherwise it isn't a Sai. When you change a weapon to be something entirely different than what it was, it's not longer what it originally was.
The Fact is, thinking from a weapon design stand point. A Sai is uneffective as a stabbing weapon, compared to other stabbing weapons of the era and level of technology.
Uneffective? Come on, the blades were long enough to pierce into fatal areas. Stab in the heart and they would bleed to death. Stab them in the lungs and they would not only drowned in their own blood but probably have a very hard time breathing.
Again, my opinion still stands tall and strong. It depends on your preference. If you like to pierce then obviously you're going to use these weapons for a pierceing technique. Nobody says, YOU HAVE TO use them in the way that you see in those videos. They are just techniques, you can mod or make up your own technique. Weither what you do is affective or inaffective depends truely on yourself if it falls into that matter.
QFT. Question to all these people who sit here arguing about 'sharp' Sai... have you ever actually seen one outside of Hollywood??
Some Sai have been sharpened in the past and it is true that the Sai has been made 'duller' for training purposes in the modern era, however 'sharpened' Sai were not the norm, they were a niche and it was very rare that people were actually allowed to carry them sharp.
Sai are often called "pronged trungeon" because one of their primary users was the Okinawan police force (and for those who don't know, unmodified trungeons are always blunt, just like Sai). It is widely believed that Sai originated as an agricultural instrument and people were able to carry it for defence in an era where they weren't allowed weapons. They were allowed to carry it because it could not be classed as a weapon due to it's blunt state.
If you are looking at history you will find that there is something like a 1000-1 ratio of Sai that have been found blunt in comparison to those found sharpened (yes the ratio is a guess, but there are many many more blunt antique Sai than sharpened ones). I am not saying that no Sai are never sharp, I am saying that in their unmodified state Sai are not particularly sharp, which is the truth.
I have posted both video and photographic evidence of how Sai were used earlier in this thread and yet people still argue they are the same as daggers...
Grant it, you have supplied decent ammount of true data and I'm not saying THEY ARE daggers. Not anymore atleast. But I am stressing that it depends on your preference for if you like to just daze people with a simple smack then obviously you're going to keep your sais dull. So it falls under who likes doing what more. You have also said that some were modified for pierceing purposes and if I was given sais. This means that while the norm defensive techniques were basic amongst peasents, there would probably be a few out there outside of large communities that would sharpen them. I would be of the odds that would sharpen them so I could backstab my foes, because I would use the Sais more offensively.
I'm not an expert on sai-based defense techniques, but from what I *have* seen, conventional sais are not meant to be used as stabbing weapons. They were used as defensive weapons by trapping (and even breaking) the swords of an enemy. (In fact, sais are sometimes called 'swordbreakers' for this exact reason) Strikes with the prongs or hilt of the sai were used to deal damage against unarmed foes.
That said, it wouldn't surprise me if some variants of the sai with a sharpened tip appeared throughout history and various techniques developed to make use of it. Sais were sometimes used by Japanese ninja, and were I a ninja, I'd sharpen the ends of my sai to a point so I could use them as a nasty surprise against somebody experienced in fighting against sai-wielders. Jabs with the sharp tip could unsettle and confuse a foe, not to mention a poke in the eye or throat can prove a devastating wound.
However, I find it unlikely that the edges of the central prong would have been sharpened to resemble a blade (much like the sai daggers that Raphael the ninja turtle wields). The main reason for this stems from the way that sais are used to break swords. The sai-wielder typically uses the sai to parry a sword blow, then slides the sai upwards while twisting the sai so that the blade of the sword is trapped between the central and side prongs of the sai. A particularly hard twist against poor quality blades (and let's face it, not every sword your enemies use against you will be top quality) will easily shatter the blade, leaving your enemy weaponless and less able to defend himself.
If the central prong of the sai was a blade, this would weaken the structural integrity of the prong and make it almost as likely that you would break your own sai as the enemy's sword when attempting such a maneuver.
<snip> Come on, the blades were long enough to pierce into fatal areas. Stab in the heart and they would bleed to death. Stab them in the lungs and they would not only drowned in their own blood but probably have a very hard time breathing.
Firstly, Sais dont have 'Blades' Theyre Cylindrical. There arent Any edges on a Sai, and very basis of their design Makes it impossible. (See Person above)
Secondly, I'm gonna go cut a baseball bat in half, Sharpen the edges, and then hit a few home runs with it. Because it's a baseball bat, and that's my preference right? Insert eye roll here.
I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond but, Nanashi, please please please try not to come into this with the aforethought 'I am right and I will try to justify it in any way' because it really hinders your arguements. If you want to speak of preference then I think a sword should be blunt damage because I am scared of sharp edges and I will grind the blade of a sword down to a stick. Or I think a bo should be piercing damage because I will sharpen the ends and pierce people with them because that's 'the most effective way of wielding a bo'. Personal preference justifies everything locally, but it still is not a valid arguement against historical facts.
goatsong
31-03-2006, 12:51
Are sai even weapons? From what I've read in the posted links, they sound more like the tools of guards or policemen, used to disarm or incapacitate opponents without serious injury. More similar to a nightstick than a dagger, really.
I agree that they ought to be blunt damage, but even that change would be pointless since the animations have the assassins stabbing away with them, which, as has been repeated over and over in this thread, is not what the "weapon" was designed for. ANet definitely didn't do their homework on this one.
Cheese Holder
31-03-2006, 13:57
I guess that were added because they looked Ninja-like.
Anyway, it was a preview of an unfinished game. They probably didn't have time to classify everything so dumped some weapons into a general slot.
The Experimentor
31-03-2006, 14:34
Um... A sharpened Sai is technically a Stiletto. :huh:
A Sai is meant to poke, twist, disarm, confuse and control.
A Stiletto was designed to go through armor.
The function differentiates them from each other. And part of the difference is that one is blunt, the other is not.
GrimShade
31-03-2006, 18:51
Um... A sharpened Sai is technically a Stiletto. :huh:
A Sai is meant to poke, twist, disarm, confuse and control.
A Stiletto was designed to go through armor.
The function differentiates them from each other. And part of the difference is that one is blunt, the other is not.
Very correct, something I alluded to in my last post. But then again Katana means sword, and the western name for that design is a saber. The Japanese aren’t going to take western names for ancient weapons. Also you seem to be describing a Maine Gaunch, again a name the Japanese wouldn't take.
In Nanashi’s defense, when you say ‘blade’ of the weapon it is commonly understood that you mean the long pointy part. A fencing foil still will have a ‘blade’ when it is commonly understood that the sides are not sharp. If you do not know the official word for the long pointy part of the weapon, ‘blade’ will work fine. BTW anyone know the official word for the long pointy part of the Sai, or a Foil?
Frankly I would be much happier if they just made her be able to hold different weapons ‘backwards.’ They obviously understand that daggers are commonly held that way as is apparent in the animation and trailers with the Assassin. The cover art shows her holding the dagger that way.
Sai not being a battlefield weapon, surviving ones would not be sharp. Now if it were a battlefield weapon, say that was used by light infantry, do you still think they would not have a better point? Historically we show no eveidence of them haveing a finer point, but you also don't see them going against any armor designes. A little liberty might have been taken, but that is how it goes.
RangerRob
31-03-2006, 19:03
BTW anyone know the official word for the long pointy part of the Sai, or a Foil?
I don't know about the Foil, I'm a Sai man myself (if you hadn't guessed so far, lol) but here goes... the 'Point' or 'Tip' of the Sai is called 'Saki' (yes like the rice drink), whilst the 'Blade' or 'Shaft' of the long middle prong is called 'Monouchi'.
My Sweet Revenga
31-03-2006, 19:56
/me scratches head :huh:
I dunno what to believe anymore. Those damn turtles have warped my fragile little miiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnddddddd
Sai are have always been blunt
Not in GuildWars they are.
The sai's in GuildWars have piercing damage. They are meant to hurt enemies and slay them.
The sai's you practice with at home (or dojo) are probably blunt.
Not in GuildWars they are.
The sai's in GuildWars have piercing damage. They are meant to hurt enemies and slay them.
The sai's you practice with at home (or dojo) are probably blunt.
That is true and a very good point. We're not just disorienting our foes we're slaying them so this would support the fact that they are pierceing. :)
I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond but, Nanashi, please please please try not to come into this with the aforethought 'I am right and I will try to justify it in any way' because it really hinders your arguements. If you want to speak of preference then I think a sword should be blunt damage because I am scared of sharp edges and I will grind the blade of a sword down to a stick. Or I think a bo should be piercing damage because I will sharpen the ends and pierce people with them because that's 'the most effective way of wielding a bo'. Personal preference justifies everything locally, but it still is not a valid arguement against historical facts.
Wait, I did not say my opinions on these weapons was right and you are all wrong. The dude who supplied the information, who claimed he knew more about this than anybody else (which he could, I don't know him in person) even said that some sais were used to pierce. Even if it was 1 out of a million, some one out there has a likeing to the weapon but enjoys going offensive in a pierceing style. I was simply stateing my opinion that if I wanted a sai mine would be sharp for offensive to rival the defensive fighting style many use and approve of.
If you wanted to dull your sword to turn it into a blunt object, then by all means, more power to you. While I would agree that sharpening a bow would be dumb, hey, everybody is weird. I can't say they're wrong. Even if I stand for the right to only shoot with a bow rather than stab with it. Personall preference is what counts.
Firstly, Sais dont have 'Blades' Theyre Cylindrical. There arent Any edges on a Sai, and very basis of their design Makes it impossible. (See Person above)
Secondly, I'm gonna go cut a baseball bat in half, Sharpen the edges, and then hit a few home runs with it. Because it's a baseball bat, and that's my preference right? Insert eye roll here.
You seem to forget that our ninjitsu wiz has said that some did actually sharpen these weapons to stab. And you also forget that in GW:F, the assassins are not peasents. They weild sharp edged weapons all the time in this game, but did you see guards arresting them in the Market Place?
They would call that bat a spear then wouldn't they? After all, there's only a few slight differences between a bat and a spear, it would make sense if you wanted to impale people.
O.o
Another thing, in the fantasy world assassins were made as offensive key characters. The only time they would defend against themselves were if they were being hunted by other assassins or some other form of hunter. I'm not going to say that we're wrong at argueing simply because this is a fantasy game and it doesn't exactly follow real life, but I also based my opinions on preferencial history (basicly what I saw fit). But the only people who seemed to weild sais, according to those who know the historical documents of these weapons, were peasents who weren't alloud to weild any deadly weapons. Assassins weren't peasents and their purpose was to kill their target quick and then flee the scene to keep from getting cought.
RangerRob
01-04-2006, 15:04
Not in GuildWars they are.
Exactly my point. Which is wrong IMO and exactly what this thread is about.
The sai's you practice with at home (or dojo) are probably blunt.
Yes they are but the point is that the Sai people used to fight with historically on a daily basis were also blunt.
The dude who supplied the information, who claimed he knew more about this than anybody else (which he could, I don't know him in person) even said that some sais were used to pierce.
For what it's worth I never said I knew more than anybody else there are many people who know more about ancient weapons than I could ever hope to know. I just stated my case and provided evidence to support it but I'm certainly no Ninjitsu whizz (or whatever you said).
But the only people who seemed to weild sais, according to those who know the historical documents of these weapons, were peasents who weren't alloud to weild any deadly weapons. Assassins weren't peasents and their purpose was to kill their target quick and then flee the scene to keep from getting cought.
No lots of people carried these weapons including Police, Samurai and Assassins, however they would usually also carry other more offensive weapons like Katana or Shuriken (or even daggers).
My point is that 'yes' occasionally Sai were sharpened at the tip by their owners in order to stab people, however Sai were not generally manufactured with sharp tips and surely this game should be basing it's design of weapons on the most commonly recognised one?
The Sai isn't the only weapons mis-represented in this game, it's just the one I am most interested in. Actually speaking of Shuriken... does anybody know if they are going to be part of the Assassin weapons arsenal in Factions??
Yes they are but the point is that the Sai people used to fight with historically on a daily basis were also blunt.
Unless you are wielding the Sais that are used in GW.
The point is, that if the developers of Guildwars [Anet] wanted to, Sais could be flaming daggers that did cold, sleaze and spooky damage while zapping [transforming] the enemy to chickens.
A rhinocerous may be a quadruped in africa, but in a computer game, it can be a flaming monstrosity with 6+ legs if the designers wanted to.
Swords doing fire damage is not unheard of in some video/computer-games.
ContactCombat
02-04-2006, 01:37
Just curious, but where do you get your "Ninjitsu" information from, RangerBob?
There is conflicting reports regarding the development of the Sai in history. It is well known that they were developed from the Jutte, which is Chinese in origin.
http://www.bugei.com/images_products/826_big.jpg
There are some conflicting reports that state the Sai were originally used to dig furrow for planting seeds...but this has never been confirmed.
The bottom line is pretty simple, though. Sharpened Sai look cool, and daggers are supposed to be piercing. As far as I know, there never existed entire cities of Necromancers, Faith Healers, Fire Blasters, Illusionists, and Eastern Assassins living in harmony...so the entire premise of this game is based upon an image that will appeal to the popular majority.
Factual history doesn't really factor in...and using factual history would be quite boring in relation to the assassin role. Historically, hashashyyin (middle eastern suicide fanatics from the crusades) were drugged up, taken to a hidden room with lots of luxury and women, then told by a dressed up and drug amplified "God Figure" that dying after performing their mission would result in a luxurious afterlife.
That is actually where the term "Assassin" comes from...Hashashyyin. The term "Hashashyyin" comes from the use of "Hash", a drug that produces euphoria and mild hallucinations.
So does this mean that GW "Assassins" should be drug addicted middle eastern fanatics that die (and are thereafter unuseable) after successfully killing their victim? That wouldn't be a lot of fun.
Have I made my point?
Shadow Dancer
02-04-2006, 02:04
To be more realistic they could make them blunt damage and with a chance to block incoming attacks. but I'm guessing the main reason they were included in the dagger line at all is because the skin looks cool.
Ninja Turtles was a cartoon, a child cartoon at that. I highly doubt they would show Raphael stabbing one of the bad dudes right in the heart.
They probably would in one of the early Japanese mangas. I've only seen a few pages, but before they got popular, those turtles were damn violent! :)
Actually speaking of Shuriken... does anybody know if they are going to be part of the Assassin weapons arsenal in Factions??
Well they appear on the belt of the starter armor, it's just a shame we can't use them. We have throwing daggers though. If they just changed the description to say shuriken, that'd do for me. :D
They probably would in one of the early Japanese mangas. I've only seen a few pages, but before they got popular, those turtles were damn violent! :)
Dark Horse Comics version of the Ninja Turtles FTW. :grin:
Shadow Dancer
02-04-2006, 05:09
I was wrong in thinking they were Japanese (There was a manga adaptation, but I actually mean the Mirage run)
To attempt to link this into the thread at hand, here's some Turtle Sai action :)
http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg05.htm
Pay attention to the bottom frame. The original Raphael did not have sharp Sai.
With all the evidence for both sides taken into consideration, the blunt side say that it was blunt to be a defensive weapon. Well just by looking at the assassins one could tell that they are less than defensive. Anet is aiming for a fantasy based assassin, one that strikes heavily and then moves quickly out of combat. By jumping into combat and going into defensive stance, well in a RP aspect, I don't see it as being affective.
That being said, I could deal with it if they changed it but I approve more of the pierceing damage than blunt.
For what it's worth I never said I knew more than anybody else there are many people who know more about ancient weapons than I could ever hope to know. I just stated my case and provided evidence to support it but I'm certainly no Ninjitsu whizz (or whatever you said).
I did not mean to offend if I did. I was just thinking you were more experienced than most of us in this forum. But even you yourself said that some were modded to be pierceing. So perhaps Anet aimed for that particular odd percent and ment for their sais to be pierceing besides the obvious evidential.
RangerRob
02-04-2006, 15:11
Just curious, but where do you get your "Ninjitsu" information from, RangerBob?
There is conflicting reports regarding the development of the Sai in history. It is well known that they were developed from the Jutte, which is Chinese in origin.
Hi ContactCombat, I never said anything about Ninjitsu if you read back through all my posts (which you probably don't want to do since I have been going on and on about this for days now, lol). I said I wasn't a Ninjitsu whizz, not that the Sai was Japanese. I actually learnt basic Sai techniques when I studied the Lau Gar style of Kung Fu, which is Chinese, but again that was basic I'm no expert.
The origins of the Sai is actually fairly debatable, whilst it is definitely not Japanese, both China and Korea have been accredited with it's creation. As you have also mentioned there are many sources of information actually say it was developed from an agricultural tool, rather than the Jutte which was an existing blunt weapon, but I'm sure that many of the ideas for it's fighting style and usage were Jutte-inspired regardless (though I don't really know enough about the Jutte to do anything other than speculate on that).
I did not mean to offend if I did. I was just thinking you were more experienced than most of us in this forum. But even you yourself said that some were modded to be pierceing.
Sorry if I misunderstood Nanashi. To be honest I'm not sure I'm even all that more experienced than others in the forum, I have just done my homework on it that's all, I'm sure there are many who have much more experience actually using Sai than I have.
But yes I agree that some were piercing. I guess I was just hoping to see Sai represented in the form I would consider to be standard, but like ContactCombat says, it's a game and who ever saw a Firey Dragon Sword...
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