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View Full Version : Unnatural signet, end of Spiritualist?



Deadly Hawkeye
28-03-2006, 23:59
I personally think Unnatural signet is really powerful against spirits and it costs no energy at all!

Please post what you think of it!

ccrazool
29-03-2006, 00:13
I grouped with a kid who was very proud of his Unnatural Signet. We came upon a few spirits and he said "OK guys, let me kill the spirits, I've got Unnatural Signet!"

We stood there and watched him shoot a spirit four times with it before the spirit died. Oooooh scary. Four Flares would have accomplished the same thing faster than Unnatural Signet.

Unnatural Signet is no more of a concern to your spirits than any other weapon, in my opinion. It'll give its wielder a warm fuzzy "I r teh pwnar of spirits!" feeling and make him dedicate a skillslot to a skill that really isn't as effective as any other skill when it comes to killing spirits.

At least that's how I read it.

moonos
29-03-2006, 00:16
I think that would be a waste of a skill slot, like you said 4 flares would do the same, or even 5 wands. Except, does the unnatural signet need a line of sight? or is it like an ob flame?

ccrazool
29-03-2006, 00:23
I think that would be a waste of a skill slot, like you said 4 flares would do the same, or even 5 wands. Except, does the unnatural signet need a line of sight? or is it like an ob flame?

No line of sight is needed; it's just like Bane Signet or Signet of Judgement.

So rather than comparing it to Flares, compare it to Dark Pacts perhaps.

Deadly Hawkeye
29-03-2006, 00:26
I grouped with a kid who was very proud of his Unnatural Signet. We came upon a few spirits and he said "OK guys, let me kill the spirits, I've got Unnatural Signet!"

We stood there and watched him shoot a spirit four times with it before the spirit died. Oooooh scary. Four Flares would have accomplished the same thing faster than Unnatural Signet.

Unnatural Signet is no more of a concern to your spirits than any other weapon, in my opinion. It'll give its wielder a warm fuzzy "I r teh pwnar of spirits!" feeling and make him dedicate a skillslot to a skill that really isn't as effective as any other skill when it comes to killing spirits.

At least that's how I read it.
Flares requires energy, unnatural signet doesn't...so some advantage of the signet.

Doyle
29-03-2006, 00:26
For those who aren't familiar with it:

Target foe takes 15..63 damage. If that foe was a Spirit, this Signet recharges instantly. (Attrib: Domination Magic)
Energy: 0 Activation time: 1 Recharge: 40

Fairly fast, no recharge when you hit a spirit, and decent damage. With such a ready counter, it seems to indicate that there won't ever be any FOTM PVP builds using spirits. Wish I'd tried it in the FPE against the spirit spamming mobs. Since mobs aren't usually going to pack counters specific to one thing, I doubt it will effect the PvE spiritualist that much.

Artemis Shadowhawk
29-03-2006, 00:31
I don't see the big deal. It's like saying that Needling Shot is the end of anyone below 50% Health, just because it recharges instantly. I'm more worried about AoE spells and warriors.

Deadly Hawkeye
29-03-2006, 00:41
For those who aren't familiar with it:

Target foe takes 15..63 damage. If that foe was a Spirit, this Signet recharges instantly. (Attrib: Domination Magic)
Energy: 0 Activation time: 1 Recharge: 40

Fairly fast, no recharge when you hit a spirit, and decent damage. With such a ready counter, it seems to indicate that there won't ever be any FOTM PVP builds using spirits. Wish I'd tried it in the FPE against the spirit spamming mobs. Since mobs aren't usually going to pack counters specific to one thing, I doubt it will effect the PvE spiritualist that much.
PvP wise, it is quite deadly (what I think)!

Gangrel
30-03-2006, 00:56
If you want a skill that is dedicated to killing spirits (40 sec recharge?? Would you bring this skill for anything else than killing spirits??) then by all means take the signet. As ccrazool said, any other damage dealing spell would do the same, except you would lose some energy.. I'd rather lose some energy and have a skill that is usefull for something else than killing spirits..

Mraezk
30-03-2006, 01:35
Its not Meteor Storm.

I think its a pretty crummy skill, one that will need to be buffed a bit if ANet believes it to be an anti-spirit spam skill. The only way you could have killed a spirit with it under the old spam teams would be if every one on the team used it at the same time on a single spirit.

Doyle
30-03-2006, 02:24
If you want a skill that is dedicated to killing spirits (40 sec recharge?? Would you bring this skill for anything else than killing spirits??) then by all means take the signet.

You did notice that there's no recharge if you target a spirit, right?

AirwenLaurre
30-03-2006, 02:29
You did notice that there's no recharge if you target a spirit, right?

His point was.. 40 sec recharge is only good for spirits but sucks for everything else.

Straccan
30-03-2006, 03:33
According to ccrazcools observations, this signet is a waste of a skillslot.

I do not need to kill a spirit with a signet, using it 4 times for that is useless if you can simply wand the spirit with 5-6 shots.

You can bet on it that spirit that have some considerable effect on gameplay will get quickly removed in PvP. I wonder when we will see the first guilds use Ritualists and how they will use them.

Personally, I see no future for spirit spammer ritualists in PvP.

1.) Interrupted.
2. Spirit gets destroyed.
3.) Why did you actually bring that spirits???
4.) Wait for recharge...

Artemis Shadowhawk
30-03-2006, 04:00
I do. And it is a bright and glorious future.

BooteLuv
30-03-2006, 04:42
I used unnatural signet quite a lot during FPE partly because it was already on my skill bar when I started. It's pretty useful cleaning up the spirits lying around after a battle. It's really fast if you use it with lots of points in fast casting. Mesmers don't get too many nuke spells so it's kinda fun to have even against non-spirits.

Random Scrubinator
30-03-2006, 08:09
Doesn't fast cast only work for spells? I don't believe that it speeds up casting of unnatural signet
funny how this skill was removed for being so awful (didn't it disable all your skills for up to 40 seconds back then?), and now that it was reintroduced, it still seems to be considered awful (although certainly less so)

Phoenixtech
30-03-2006, 08:27
I used it, and even though there is no recharge and a 1 sec cast time, there's a 1-1.5 second's worth of aftercast time. Like other people have said here, you're better off bringing flare.

jciardha
30-03-2006, 08:44
Having played a mesmer during the FPE, I have to conclude that, as is, Unnatural Signet is fairly worthless. At least at 12 Domination. I didn't bother buying a Superior Domination rune and seeing what my DPS output would have been at 15 or higher. Regardless, it seems more efficient to drop an ele AOE nuke on it, and be done with it. It's not as if the spirit is going to move anywhere, eh? :rolleyes: A mesmer shouldn't be wasting all his efforts on a single target, and multiple spams of Unnatural Signet at a spirit or two is an inefficient use of combat time. At least, in my opinion. I expect other, more knowledgeable, mesmers to totally disagree. :smiley:

Now, if Anet had been so kind as to give mesmers a Power Block-like elite against spirit summonings ... well, I think I'd be hearing screams for a nerf. :rolleyes:

arredondo
30-03-2006, 10:26
At L16 Dom, a Mesmer does 79 damage with this skill with every use. That's as damaging as a single max Shatter Delusions almost every second... all armor ignoring damage. If the health and armor of a Rit spirit is the same as a Ra spirit, then this signet hurts them a lot more than simple wand spam. Use flare? I guess, but armor affects its damage and it uses energy. Unnatural Signet does not.

Darakus
30-03-2006, 12:01
The armor of a spirit is quite low in effect your flare at 12 in its attribute will most likely do 1.5 to 2 times its indicated damage to the spirit making it more damage than the signet. AoE will probably be the way to deal with ritualist spirits or even better bow attacks from out of range.

My point of view is that where most ranger spirits were ignored in favor of the opponent it will not be the case for ritualist ones I wonder if someone will use edge of extinction in a spirit removing tactic :grin:

Longasc
30-03-2006, 12:10
Simply whack the spirit. You have a wand, warriors a weapon. 1 focused strike of a few team members can bring the spirit down faster without needing a slot for a special anti-spirit signet with questionable use.

Gangrel
30-03-2006, 12:29
The skill is only good for killing spirits (and it being better than any other damage spell for that purpuse is weak..). 40 sec recharge on a spell that does 80 damage at 16 dom? Not worth the skil slot. Unless you are paranoid of Rit spirits, I wouldn't bring that skill.

Serendipity
30-03-2006, 12:35
While the recharge time is quite long, it can also be used as a good finishing skills on another player.

73 armor ignoring damage unconditionnaly isn't that bad. Add a mantra of inscriptions. You can use it about every 20 sec.

BostonVaulter
30-03-2006, 12:45
plus its another signet to use with keystone signet builds, not like it's used very often. Hopefully, it will get to see some use now with all the new signets in factions.

Xunlai Agent
30-03-2006, 12:57
It is just a check to Spirit spamming if that ever emerges, I don't think it has that much utility other than killing Spirits with 40 secs worth of recharge. We used Spirits to build adrenaline off of in PvP to fuel our spike and that worked too...

Free Adrenaline and Dead Spirits

Phoenixtech
30-03-2006, 20:08
At L16 Dom, a Mesmer does 79 damage with this skill with every use. That's as damaging as a single max Shatter Delusions almost every second... all armor ignoring damage. If the health and armor of a Rit spirit is the same as a Ra spirit, then this signet hurts them a lot more than simple wand spam. Use flare? I guess, but armor affects its damage and it uses energy. Unnatural Signet does not.

It recharges in a WHOPPING 40/45 seconds if you use it on anything but a spirit. Armor ignoring damage vs a sprit is a BAD thing since they are lvl 8 or 9 and have low armor anyways. You can use flare on spirit and if you run into a team that doesn't spirit spam you wouldn't have wasted a slot on unnatural signet.

arredondo
30-03-2006, 20:30
If you run into a team with no _________, you've wasted a slot for a lot of things. No melee (Blood spike)? You wasted Distortion, Clumsiness, and Ineptitude. No casters (IWAY)? You wasted your Spell interruptions. If spirits are not used by Rangers or Ritualists in Factions, then obviously the skill will not be used. If they are using them enough, then this skill gets the job done well.

Armor ignoring damage is never "bad" regardless of the point you're trying to make... I've wand spammed my share of Ranger spirits and they can take awhile to go down with the wand doing barely -8 to -12 damage if the Spirit is pumped up enough.

If a Rit is laying spirits, why in the world would you expect them to be low level? They will be top notch most times, and they will have good armor. 79 armor ignoring damage almost every second then is significant should Rit spirit spam become a common issue.

Finally, Unnatural Signet on a signet spam build is not ridiculous to use on opponents if you want it. You can get up to four uses of any non-elite signet in the game with some of the Sig spam builds I've made - that's almost 320 Unnatural Signet damage alone. And with Keystone Signet, you can spam any amount of signets on your bar three times each:

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=358219

You are placing restrictions in areas where there are none.

Zero RoGuE
30-03-2006, 21:08
They just need an Etherial converstion skill

E:5
C:1
R:20
For 5-20 seconds target creature type becomes spirit.

:grin:

Falrow
30-03-2006, 21:13
At 16 dom, the signet will take 6 activations to kill most spirits, they have around 450 hp taking spawning power into account.

Thus it will take around 10 seconds to kill a spirit once you target it and are in casting range.

With ritual lord your spirits are recharging in 10 seconds at 16 spawn, for 13 seconds at the more common 15 spawn. With a 5 second casting time, you can put the spirits on the ground every 18~ seconds.

Do that with 2 spirits (shelter and union) and the unnatural signet mesmer basicly spends the whole time killing spirits, and probably just managing to kill them before they go back up.

Thus, unless you can interupt the ritual lord, which will be difficult to say the least because he's far behind the monks, shelter and union will be up continously on your monks. Throw Soothing into the mix, and any enemy GvG team is in trouble that uses either warriors or spikes or assasins. Which is basicly every build I know.

Blood spike might only be marginally effected by this, only shadow strike doing 15 less damage per person.

Gangrel
30-03-2006, 23:25
At 16 dom, the signet will take 6 activations to kill most spirits, they have around 450 hp taking spawning power into account.

Thus it will take around 10 seconds to kill a spirit once you target it and are in casting range.

With ritual lord your spirits are recharging in 10 seconds at 16 spawn, for 13 seconds at the more common 15 spawn. With a 5 second casting time, you can put the spirits on the ground every 18~ seconds.

Do that with 2 spirits (shelter and union) and the unnatural signet mesmer basicly spends the whole time killing spirits, and probably just managing to kill them before they go back up.

Thus, unless you can interupt the ritual lord, which will be difficult to say the least because he's far behind the monks, shelter and union will be up continously on your monks. Throw Soothing into the mix, and any enemy GvG team is in trouble that uses either warriors or spikes or assasins. Which is basicly every build I know.

Blood spike might only be marginally effected by this, only shadow strike doing 15 less damage per person.


And you'll need a battery necro or 2 to support that kind of spirit spamming. And if the mezmer can hit the spirits with the signet he can also hit the ritualist with an interupt. Or even better - drain him.

CKaz
30-03-2006, 23:33
Regardless, it seems more efficient to drop an ele AOE nuke on it, and be done with it. It's not as if the spirit is going to move anywhere, eh?

Yes and no - there is Draw Spirit (I believe that's the name) that lets a Ritualist bring 'em along in tow. Maybe ANet listened to all those poor ritualists worrying about the Ele having a use for repeat AoE... :tongue:

(or if it was out before the complaints they didn't look too hard)

Was kinda funny in the FPE... you'd see groups dragging their spirits along...

Phoenixtech
31-03-2006, 00:35
If a Rit is laying spirits, why in the world would you expect them to be low level? They will be top notch most times, and they will have good armor. 79 armor ignoring damage almost every second then is significant should Rit spirit spam become a common issue.

Finally, Unnatural Signet on a signet spam build is not ridiculous to use on opponents if you want it. You can get up to four uses of any non-elite signet in the game with some of the Sig spam builds I've made - that's almost 320 Unnatural Signet damage alone. And with Keystone Signet, you can spam any amount of signets on your bar three times each:



At lvl 16 spamming power I think most spirits are lvl 10 max with around 400 or so life. It will take you prob 5 unnatural signets to take it down. I've played with it extensively during the FPE and I can tell you that there's an aftercast effect after unnatural signet. So we're talking about prob 10 second's worth of you doing nothing but casting a signet to take down 1 spirit. Where as flare would be taking advantage of the lower lvl and get around 120 damage per hit.

With ritual lord, the ritualist can SPAM spirits like CRAZY. Consider this, while you are taking 10 seconds to kill 1 spirit, he can prob put another one back up, WHILE these spirits are attacking your teammates, or worse, YOU. Most of the offensive Ritualists I ran during FPE used pain, bloodsong, shadowsong, and sometimes dissonance/wonderlust. 10 seconds of standing still casting a signet nonstop usually means getting hit by dissonance or wonderlust, both of which is going to be very unpleasant.

Personally, I think it's more efficient to bring consume soul for spirit control even though it's an elite spell, but hey, if you want to use unnatural signet go for it. Everyone plays with a different style. I can tell you that signet based stuff got alot more interesting with all of the new signets and complicate, which is one of the best new mesmer interupts.

Phoenixtech
31-03-2006, 00:37
And you'll need a battery necro or 2 to support that kind of spirit spamming. And if the mezmer can hit the spirits with the signet he can also hit the ritualist with an interupt. Or even better - drain him.

Boon of creation helps with mana ALOT. Yes, it is an enchantment and can be stripped, but then again, you could have cover enchants on top. I played alot with a ritualist during FPE and I've rarely had any mana problems. Also, ritualists have a great mana hiding mechanism to ward off heavy e-denial, holding an ashpot = automatic mana hiding.

Falrow
31-03-2006, 00:51
And you'll need a battery necro or 2 to support that kind of spirit spamming. And if the mezmer can hit the spirits with the signet he can also hit the ritualist with an interupt. Or even better - drain him.
Why would you EVER need more then one person with BR or, god forbid, BiP???

And with boon of creation, Shelter costs a total of 2 mana, with a cast time of 5 seconds, you easily regen the nrg in the cast. One consideration is Ritual Lord, which if your going to maintain it, costs 10 nrg every 30 seconds, which is basicly 1 pip of regen. Also, it's a skill not an enchantment, thus not removable.

And as to reach, it's a simple matter to make the Rt operate just barely in casting range of the monks, or even further. If the mesmers on the other team are extended THAT far, either they will be rapidly be taken out by fire and snares without monk support, OR the monks will have to move FAR forward, making them very vulnerable to your offense. And while they are vulnerable, their team is focusing on killing the spirits in the far back and no doing damage to them.

And as for dealing with interupts, you can either make sure you are far back, or baring that bring a mantra of resolve or mantra of concentration.

Would Glyph of Concentration work not a ritual?

Oh and as for the drain, a simple weapon switch solves that.

arredondo
31-03-2006, 00:54
At lvl 16 spamming power I think most spirits are lvl 10 max with around 400 or so life. It will take you prob 5 unnatural signets to take it down. I've played with it extensively during the FPE and I can tell you that there's an aftercast effect after unnatural signet. So we're talking about prob 10 second's worth of you doing nothing but casting a signet to take down 1 spirit. Where as flare would be taking advantage of the lower lvl and get around 120 damage per hit.

With ritual lord, the ritualist can SPAM spirits like CRAZY. Consider this, while you are taking 10 seconds to kill 1 spirit, he can prob put another one back up, WHILE these spirits are attacking your teammates, or worse, YOU. Most of the offensive Ritualists I ran during FPE used pain, bloodsong, shadowsong, and sometimes dissonance/wonderlust. 10 seconds of standing still casting a signet nonstop usually means getting hit by dissonance or wonderlust, both of which is going to be very unpleasant.

Personally, I think it's more efficient to bring consume soul for spirit control even though it's an elite spell, but hey, if you want to use unnatural signet go for it. Everyone plays with a different style. I can tell you that signet based stuff got alot more interesting with all of the new signets and complicate, which is one of the best new mesmer interupts.

We can agree that there are several ways to take out a key Spirit... but wand spam is not one of them is my main point. Flare should work well, even with the AL adjustments, but it still costs 5E a shot. Four or five flares is 20E-25E gone besides the 10 seconds. With US, you haven't used any energy at all. For mass Spirit decimation, I agree that the Spirit-hate spells look the best.

Falrow
31-03-2006, 01:01
US is by far the best way to kill spirits, nothing else even comes close, except maybe firestorm against a stupid spirit spammer.

But Ritual Lord will keep the US guy casting continiously and never keeping stuff down, basicly taking out one guy on there team for free, while still giving your team the added protection.

Phoenixtech
31-03-2006, 01:09
Naw, consume soul is the best spirit killer, it has added bonus of healing AOE, well worth the elite slot.


Anyhow, I posed a few questions b4, just wondering if anyone noticed during their play.

1) Can you distracting shot a binding ritual? I'd love to distract shot a shadowsong and make it do nothing for 20 seconds?

2) Can spirit attacks be blocked or evaded?

Doyle
31-03-2006, 02:17
1) Can you distracting shot a binding ritual? I'd love to distract shot a shadowsong and make it do nothing for 20 seconds?

2) Can spirit attacks be blocked or evaded?

1) You can ds the spell itself and prevent the spirit from being summoned, but once the the binding ritual is complete, its just a spirit. The same way you ds animate bone fiend to stop a mm, but you can't ds the minion.

2) I don't see why not, but I haven't
tested it. Ofc, even if it does, this would only work on spirit attacks not effects. So you could stop the damage from Pain and Bloodsong, and avoid the blinding from Shadowsong, but you can't evade Destruction's effect.

Phoenixtech
31-03-2006, 02:59
1) You can ds the spell itself and prevent the spirit from being summoned, but once the the binding ritual is complete, its just a spirit. The same way you ds animate bone fiend to stop a mm, but you can't ds the minion.

2) I don't see why not, but I haven't
tested it. Ofc, even if it does, this would only work on spirit attacks not effects. So you could stop the damage from Pain and Bloodsong, and avoid the blinding from Shadowsong, but you can't evade Destruction's effect.


Awe that's disappointing, I figured a spirit is similar to say a seige worm where you can distract shot it and make it not do it's attack for a while. There's even a bar on the spirit's attacks just like a seige worm so it lends me to believe that you can distract shot it.

Doyle
31-03-2006, 08:01
Awe that's disappointing, I figured a spirit is similar to say a seige worm where you can distract shot it and make it not do it's attack for a while. There's even a bar on the spirit's attacks just like a seige worm so it lends me to believe that you can distract shot it.

Oh, I see what you're saying now --I thought you meant just shooting it would stop it from attacking. Actually, I've never tried that, so I don't know for sure if it would work or not, but it seems like it would.

I really hope not, though, because it would certainly suck for Ritualists.

Goldfish God
31-03-2006, 12:00
yea, I'm pretty sure "activating" spirits, like Pain or that "heal one person once per 4 seconds" elite spirit (recuperation?) use skills to function. e.g. Pain uses "Pain" attack skill.

However passive spirits like Destruction or Union just "work".

Viti Ligo
31-03-2006, 12:48
yea, I'm pretty sure "activating" spirits, like Pain or that "heal one person once per 4 seconds" elite spirit (recuperation?) use skills to function. e.g. Pain uses "Pain" attack skill.

However passive spirits like Destruction or Union just "work".

I don't think that for example spirit of pain uses a skill "pain"... it just attacks with its weapon "pain"... I believe this because you can use weapon spells to the spirits.. so I think that "pain" is more like a weapon than skill ?

Gangrel
31-03-2006, 12:50
Why would you EVER need more then one person with BR or, god forbid, BiP???

And with boon of creation, Shelter costs a total of 2 mana, with a cast time of 5 seconds, you easily regen the nrg in the cast. One consideration is Ritual Lord, which if your going to maintain it, costs 10 nrg every 30 seconds, which is basicly 1 pip of regen. Also, it's a skill not an enchantment, thus not removable.

And as to reach, it's a simple matter to make the Rt operate just barely in casting range of the monks, or even further. If the mesmers on the other team are extended THAT far, either they will be rapidly be taken out by fire and snares without monk support, OR the monks will have to move FAR forward, making them very vulnerable to your offense. And while they are vulnerable, their team is focusing on killing the spirits in the far back and no doing damage to them.

And as for dealing with interupts, you can either make sure you are far back, or baring that bring a mantra of resolve or mantra of concentration.

Would Glyph of Concentration work not a ritual?

Oh and as for the drain, a simple weapon switch solves that.


If you are going to spam spirits every 13 seconds, and recast all the enchantmens/skills AND try to hide your energy with ashes... You will need a battery..

If the mezmer is close enough to use the signet he is close enough to do something to the ritualist. Let's not talk about being in the backline or whatever, cause that doesn't make sense. When have you seen 2 parties fighting it off in the middle while monks on both sides are casting without any harrasment???


And a simple weapon switch won't help you.I'm not talking about all the stupid hexes that end when energy = 0. I'm talking about burn, surge sig of weariness.. And a mindwrack to add some damage. You can't change out of that. And since the mezmer can see you holding the ashes, he will just wait for you to drop them.

Those kind of calculation look great on paper, but seriously.... Not enough energy to sustain that kind of spaming, and the mezmer would be a really stupid one, if he went after the ever respawning spirits instead of the spirit spammer...

Viti Ligo
31-03-2006, 13:49
Forget to say this earlier... I don't think that simple spirit spamming is going to work. Spirits are too slow to summon, and even with Ritual Lord their recharge times are too long and there can be only 1 spirit of a kind at time in battlefield per side, spirits don't do damage enough nor most of them can't protect you long enough as everytime they do something most of them lose health... and with intense fight they will take that damage very quick. Spirits are also very easy to wipe out with various ways...

I like spirits very much but as now they are very hard to utilize... I wouldn't rely any build that just uses spirits they can support or boost something but the main weapon of any build should be something else.

Goldfish God
31-03-2006, 16:00
I don't think that for example spirit of pain uses a skill "pain"... it just attacks with its weapon "pain"... I believe this because you can use weapon spells to the spirits.. so I think that "pain" is more like a weapon than skill ?
Pain does use "pain" attack skill. You can see it being used when u've selected the spirit in the same way that you can see other players and mobs using skills by selecting them.

It looks a bit like:

Attack. This attack deals X damage.

or something. Having a weapon seems to not be a requirement for weapon spells, in the circumstances of NPCs you can get minotaurs using hammer attacks while not actually having hammers, and being able to put weapon spells on turtles, while it's also possible to put a weapon spell on a player who's carrying an item (e.g. ash-pots) which means they're not outwardly equipped with a weapon.

Falrow
31-03-2006, 19:09
The only way to make Consume Soul work is with Spirit Walk, a Asn skill.

So now your stuck with a Rt/A without an elite slot and down one other slot, or a A/Rt.

Can't be a healer, best I can come up with is a channeling spiker, which actually seems like a good idea in HA. Would really take out the Oath Shot ranger, and make spike teams quite useable.

But without the Shadow Step skill, it's really a ***** to make it to touch range of the spirits. Trust me I tried it. Won't work on a healer cause it takes like 5 seconds to kill one spirit.

Falrow
31-03-2006, 19:25
If you are going to spam spirits every 13 seconds, and recast all the enchantmens/skills AND try to hide your energy with ashes... You will need a battery..

If the mezmer is close enough to use the signet he is close enough to do something to the ritualist. Let's not talk about being in the backline or whatever, cause that doesn't make sense. When have you seen 2 parties fighting it off in the middle while monks on both sides are casting without any harrasment???


And a simple weapon switch won't help you.I'm not talking about all the stupid hexes that end when energy = 0. I'm talking about burn, surge sig of weariness.. And a mindwrack to add some damage. You can't change out of that. And since the mezmer can see you holding the ashes, he will just wait for you to drop them.

Those kind of calculation look great on paper, but seriously.... Not enough energy to sustain that kind of spaming, and the mezmer would be a really stupid one, if he went after the ever respawning spirits instead of the spirit spammer...

Have you EVER played a monk against eDenial? It's really easy to cast around denial, against any kind of a organised team with monks that know what they are doing, simply hide their energy by putting away their +15 weapon while not casting. I never said anything about ashes, they are useless for hiding energy.

And for energy, Boon of Creation gives you 50 hp and 8 mana everytime you create a creature. Namely a spirit. So I cast a spirit that takes 10 mana, takes me 5 seconds. In that 5 seconds I've regened ~7mana, when I'm done casting I gain 8 mana. For casting that spirit I've gained a total of 15 mana, costing 10 mana. Not that expensive you see? And for Union, which is 15 mana and 3 sec cast, you won't break even, but it's still not anywhere near as expensive as a monk casting.

Now for positionning. All you have to be is close enoght to the battle to have your spirits each your casters, so you can be FAR behind your monk line. To get to the spammer, you have to run through the teams monk line.
Then your really extended, and in alot of trouble. If you send a warrior to attack the spammer, he can either go against the spammer and do ~20 dmg a hit maxium, with soothing up so he's adrenaline is really slow.

Starting to get the picture? Union and Shelter are going to be covering my monks and casters at all times. And there's nothing you can do about it.

Gangrel
31-03-2006, 20:40
I have played a monk against edeny, I have played an edeny mezmer, and I have played a ritualist spirit spammer. I'm not saying I'm am great at those builds, but I know my stuff. That +15 switch WON'T help you.. Why?? because if you are a monk you usually need to be spamming spells... And a mezmer that is trying to edeny you will see you cast a spell, and fire off one of his burn/surges.

And you need a lot more than 15 energy to operate that ritualist, even with boon of creation. And with 5 sec cast times - yes you will be interupted.

And while playing the ritualist, my spirits (union shelter and so on)died in less than 15 seconds. Because they take damage each time they prevent it. So the only way of keeping them up is really spaming them the second they recharge. Boon of creation is an ench, spirits take 5 seconds to cast, you need 15 energy alone to cast a spirit, and you need more energy if you want to cast anything else. Mezmer will either eat up your energy (ok so you will save 15 energy because the mezmer is stupid and doesn't know when to burn it, like in the 5 seconds you are casting the spirit...), shatter your boon of creation, or interupt your spirit.. And if you plan on reducing your energy even further (droping to 2 pips of regen), your energy won't recharge fast enough and you are still open to burning when you cast...

And please, monks and other kind of casters are primary targets. Do you think wariors (the only close range spikers) are scared to go behind the monk line?? Do you think the rest of the team will be waaay in the back?? Oh come on you know better than that.. Rangers will just own with longbows (5 second cast is enough for the arrows to hit even without speeding them up), assasins will just teleport in, casters are casters and they will be far enough to cast without going too close.

It's like saying a bonder or a E/Mo heal party spammer is safe, because he can stay in the back and cast.. Warriors these days work in pairs and usually carry a self heal an attack stance, some adrenal spike skills, and some hex removal (yes the top guilds start to use W/Me).

you will NOT be safe because you stay in the back.. You will not hide your energy, because you need to unhide it wehn you cast, and while you are casting you can't hide it again.. 5 seconds is ALOT OF TIME to drain AND interupt..

But this topc really isn't about that, it's about 1 signet...

Falrow
31-03-2006, 23:42
Boon of creation has a 60 second + 20% duration.

You obviously don't understand how to hide your energy, and this isn't the place for someone to teach you. Go look it up.

The Mesmer will have to over extend himself to each the Rt in the first place. The Warriors, and maybe Asn, will have the choice between going for the spirits or the Rt. If they go for the spirits, they just get recast. If they go for the Rt, they won't be able to kill him because the spirits are up and the monks are healing him. They couldn't spend much time in there anyways, because the team will be beating on them and they have no monks.

About US, the topic, I just don't think it's effective enoght to counter the power of Ritual Lord. But it's very interesting in HA...

Gangrel
31-03-2006, 23:58
Boon of creation has a 60 second + 20% duration.


So? That means you won't have to recast it? Or does it mean I won't be able to shatter it/ench drain it from you?



You obviously don't understand how to hide your energy, and this isn't the place for someone to teach you. Go look it up.


Yes that is a very valid answer to the fact that you cant hide your energy during the 5 sec casting time of the spirit, and also me being able to just interupt the cast -> boon won't give you energy back. Thank you, you just proved that I am a total noob.




The Mesmer will have to over extend himself to each the Rt in the first place. The Warriors, and maybe Asn, will have the choice between going for the spirits or the Rt. If they go for the spirits, they just get recast. If they go for the Rt, they won't be able to kill him because the spirits are up and the monks are healing him. They couldn't spend much time in there anyways, because the team will be beating on them and they have no monks.



Over extend?? No monks?? Do you really think monks are afraid of going in with the rest of the team?? Do you really think the warriors will just charge in blindly and the rest of the team will stay waaaay in the back doing.. I have no idea what. I always thought the rest of the team is also attacking some target, which usually isn't the front line warior. But I guess I am wrong again and everyone just stands still and the mooment they try to attack someone in the back they just get pwnd... Getting out of the monks reach isn't the same as going in after the target..

I have no idea what kind of a game you are playing, but when I play, the teams are all over each other and the front/middle/back lines get mixed up alot.. monks and casters kite, and ranger and warriors chase the target..




About US, the topic, I just don't think it's effective enoght to counter the power of Ritual Lord. But it's very interesting in HA...


Finally some logic.. The signet sucks. Thank you for this discusion..

ijack
01-04-2006, 05:49
I don't understand why people these days would still compare 1 skill (unnatural signet) with a whole build.....or at least 2 skills with an elite (ritual lord and a natural's ritual.......and also boon?) and say the skill is useless.

When you compare the best elite for ritualist with a normal skill it's just insulting to yourself. I don't need to write an essay to tell you that. Are you saying all skills are useless because Psychic distraction can interrupt any skills every 2 seconds.

Say if you are using Wandalust or Preservation, the ability to kill the elite spirit 3 second cast 45 second recharge in 10 second faster with no energy cost I would consider a normal skill worthwhile, afterall all skills are situational.

Falrow
01-04-2006, 09:04
I did get side tracked there and I appoligise (hey, we all do it!)

But defensive spirts are what's going to be the most common, and what this signet is going to find most of it's use for.

Saying that, comparing it on how effective it's going to be against what it will be used against is a reasonable way to size up a skill. (Look at "Shields Up!" against ranger spike)

In the end, this skill is the second best way to kill spirits in the game, FAR behind Spirit Walk + Consume Soul. But that combo has alot of problems with it. It's much better then Consume Soul alone, considering it's not an elite.

Sherlock
01-04-2006, 09:44
Hello, this is my first posting here since I was mainly on D2.net :smiley: !

Well if I can add my oppinion after the Factions and this topic, I can say it will just support use and creation of Anti-signets builds (especialy with signets for other proffesions as well). For example, in this case, Ritualist can defend himself (depend on second proffesion) either with :

1. RA/RT or RT/RA :

Primal Echoes - Beast Mastery, Energy: 5 cast time: 5 recharge time: 60

Nature Ritual. Create a level 2..9
Spirit. For creatures within its range, "Signet" rings cost 10 Energy to use. This spirit dies after 38..134 seconds.

Just heal the sipirt and defend it from constant spaming, 10 Energy is a lot for someone who counted it will not cost him anything !


2. RT/ME - this is much more expensive build as you are using Elite skill slot and not in your primary :

Panic - Domination Magic Energy: 25 cast time: 2 recharge time: 10

Elite Hex Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are hexed with Panic for 8..19
seconds. While hexed, they suffer Energy degeneration of 2 and take 10..68
damage whenever they use a "Signet" ring.

However, it is a Hex and therefore can be easily removed. But still it should put some pressure and give you time until Enemy Monk un-hex all the team, as its AoE.


Not thaught of combinatin of the two above skills, like Me/Ra or Ra/Me with Primal Echoes and Panic. This can be new build designed to be a "Spirit Spammer Bodyguard" !

Well I hope I havent embarresed myself as this is my first post here :))) , Cheers and I would like to hear other oppinions on this !

Falrow
02-04-2006, 19:56
Hmm, I never thought of primal echos...

Looks like the meta game is heating up even before the game itself is released! Now thats something new.

Thanks for the suggestion and counter. Primal will really shut down US..

Phoenixtech
02-04-2006, 20:55
as I stated earlier, complicate is what's going to be shutting down signets. I can see alot of mesmers packing that skill.

Nozzie
23-04-2006, 20:44
No doubt mesmers will be bringing this skill but who knows how it will actually play out. If you bring this skill and wait for a ritualist to bring spirits out and he doesn't you have wasted a skill slot.

Lady Lozza
24-04-2006, 11:12
Hmm, my take its that it is only useful against spirits, but I don't think that it is as bad as others make it out to be.

1) It is a skill so not all interrupts will interrupt it, and
2) It is a sig that recharges nice a quick (when used appropriately).

Nonetheless, I think I would be more inclined to use ele AoEs to take out opposing spirits mainly because I've noticed that most players tend to clump spirits and a well placed AoE will take care of several spirits at the one time.

Falrow
24-04-2006, 15:01
But all the spirits worth killing have high armor, thus reducing the damage of the AoE, but not US's dmg.

Also any Ritual Lord worth his salt will keep the spirits out of nearby range of each other.

Ifer
24-04-2006, 15:16
This skill is very useful against spirits, and combined with mantra of Signets and Keystone Signet it is also quite a potent damage dealer in spiritless combat.

I have actually designed a GvG build wherein this is one of the featured skills.

Sherlock
25-04-2006, 16:01
Except mentioned Complicate, Mesmers have good old Ignorance :

Ignorance - For 8...18 seconds, target foe cannot use Signet rings. (15-1-10, Domination Hex Spell) !

antonz
30-04-2006, 06:20
the basic problem is that it is a SIGNET. a little water elementalist skill you know too well ( got it pisses me off in UW) makes it recharge 3 times slower. now while you take your 15 or so secs to kill my spirit, i can summon let say 2 or 3 of them. i may also kill you with my wand during this time :D

one meteor shower (or even 2 fireball) and your spirits are doomed !!! thus discussion closed