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View Full Version : A/X vs R/A... what do assassins have over rangers?



Reikai
01-04-2006, 14:13
Well, I'm definitally going to make a PvE Assassin. I don't know, they just attract me. However... I'm not sure if I want to use my current Ranger, and put the secondary assassin on him... or make a totally new assassin.

I've been thinking... seriously, what do assassin primarys, mainly, Critical Strikes, have over the ranger's expertise?

Damgae wise, Critical Strikes would probably be better in the short run... but overall Expertise allows you to spam assassin skills like no tomorrow... (think Zealous + Repeating Strike spam... +3X every attack... can critical strikes compare to this?)

Energy Control wise, expertise Definitally get it, as well... the energy gained via critical strikes is nowhere near the energy conserved with expertise.

so... what makes the assassin really great? what does a A/X (or pure assassin) have over a R/A (also pure assassin skills)?

Master Divine
01-04-2006, 16:27
Their ciritcle strike you will learn is how they do most their dmg and if they are without their chi (spirit force) then its like a martail artist in the black belt test....Hes going to get trampled

Criticles gives tons of extra dmg hits i understand about the expertise but really its not that good. This is becuse you might be able to keep attacking but do almost no dmg

I didnt find the ranger assasin to be better then a regular assasin but that might just be my playing style. Well there is all the information i have.

Siru
01-04-2006, 17:37
I have one really good reason to NOT turn in to a R/A: you can chose other secondary to compliment your builds :thubsup:

..And of course when thinking about what you are saying about the differences of R/A and A/x here's how I would compare 'em:

R/A

Can keep preasure on the target for long times (can do 4+ combos with an ease [=expertise])
Not as high damage output on short period of time (runes, critical hits vs. expertise in damage)
Longer time to recover from attacks (energy regeneration)

A/x

All the opposite :tongue:
Other secondary to use
Fragile - not elemental resistance (rangers +30AL)

Sadow
01-04-2006, 19:45
The slower rate of regeneration of a Ranger's energy can easily be remedied with a set of zealous daggers. When combined with Tiger's Fury, I have found that I have pretty much limitless eenrgy.

MaximumSquid
01-04-2006, 20:31
I could go into a Long LONG debate over this, but here's the breakdown.

One word: Positive
Assassins are relentless
Rangers are survivors

One word: Negative
Assassins are reckless
Rangers are cowards

With increased personal skill
A skilled ranger can more relentless than an assassin
A skilled assassin can survive longer than a ranger

Within a Team
Assassins don't stack, but are extremely effective as a single entity
Rangers stack, and become increasingly deadly in numbers

Energy Management
Expertise is greater than critical energy for skill use.
Critical energy is greater than expertise for spell use.

Anomalious Utility
Rangers recieve bonus damage from pet use
Assassin's recieve bonus damage from double strikes

I could go on .. .but this should get you started. . .or at least headed in the right direction.

Bobross
02-04-2006, 07:44
I could go into a Long LONG debate over this, but here's the breakdown.

One word: Positive
Assassins are relentless
Rangers are survivors

One word: Negative
Assassins are reckless
Rangers are cowards

With increased personal skill
A skilled ranger can more relentless than an assassin
A skilled assassin can survive longer than a ranger

Within a Team
Assassins don't stack, but are extremely effective as a single entity
Rangers stack, and become increasingly deadly in numbers

Energy Management
Expertise is greater than critical energy for skill use.
Critical energy is greater than expertise for spell use.

Anomalious Utility
Rangers recieve bonus damage from pet use
Assassin's recieve bonus damage from double strikes

I could go on .. .but this should get you started. . .or at least headed in the right direction.

I disagree with the comment about assassins not stacking. With teleportation, you can have one assassin calling targets and numerous assists, targets drop quick to 2 or 3 assassins. Ideally you want a balance, enough assassins to kill the targets but taking long enough so they get through combos...if there's 5 assassins in a group, you'd need to have two people calling. I will agree that rangers are probably the best class for "stacking" but I think that assassins can be contenders, if they're coordinated...which applies to rangers as well...if every ranger in a group brought poison arrow, you wouldn't be very efficient. but there are ways to balance a group to solve those problems.

I was trying to run an A/R with a bow over the beta weekend...seemed to work alright, although I didn't have the right skills to work it properly. I'd like to test that though, and see what differences in damage output would be...lower marksmanship, but high critical strike probability...I think it'd work well in an interrupt build, as the critical strikes would keep energy flowing, while waiting for spells to be cast/skills to recharge. I think I'd use shadow arts for survivability too...although wilderness survival works well too.
-Emile

Deus Invictus
02-04-2006, 08:01
I was a hardcore ranger... but after learning how to use the assassin over the weekend i love the assassin... look at it this way an assassin is a melee form of a ranger thats why i used an A/R build

Longasc
02-04-2006, 11:22
The Ranger Assassin will probably never run into energy troubles.

Expertise at 8 or better 13 will reduce energy needs for 5/10 energy skill to 2/5 energy only!

Add in zealous daggers, and here you go.


The problem is, your max in Dagger Mastery will be 12. You will not have Critical Strikes, so you will do less max damage with your skills and have less chance to have a critical hit AND less double attack chance because you are limited to 12 dagger mastery.

The point is, as A/R or R/A you do the damage with your daggers. The energy benefit pales if your combos are not damaging. You would benefit more from Assassin runes than from ranger runes.


How about a A/R using a bow? 12 Marksmanship with high critical strikes and spamming barrage for a crit-heavy bombardier in PvE?

Lone Wolf
02-04-2006, 12:05
If u want to use the skills in the Dagger Mastery line, I would have to say go with a A/x over a R/A. The assassin can have a higher dagger mastery level and a higher chance of critical hits. This is much better than the frequent weak attacks that the ranger can do damage wise. Even if assassins have more energy management problems than the ranger, u can just stick a Zealous mod on ur daggers. With the fast attack rate of daggers, the Zealous mod should keep ur energy lvl high. There's also the energy that u get from critical strike.

-Lone Wolf

Rhayve
02-04-2006, 16:15
A/R can pretty evil, Attribute points in Critical Strikes and Dagger Mastery + some in Beast Mastery, Enchant yourself with Locusts Fury and activate Tiger's Fury + Deadly Arts' Impale or Shadow Arts' Shadowy Burden and you're bound to wreck havoc upon your enemies

Shadow Dancer
02-04-2006, 17:58
Also Ranger mains will never get any Assassin attributes over 12.

And Assassins stack just fine IMO.

I think R/A is a decent combo though.

Lefaras
02-04-2006, 21:52
A R/a is petty much limited to the assasin skills tree. They will have problem to incorporate the spells in the deadly and shadows art due to their low enegy regen.

An A/R can manage their energy pool rather effectively with a zealous dagger, CS attribute and 4 pips of energy regen.Assasin also have some energy management skills. so they can use both the assasin spells and skills and the ranger skills.

Just my two cents

akarias
02-04-2006, 22:33
However, the main point of the assassin in high lvl pvp will probably not be so much damage, since in raw damage it might be hard to match wars (not saying they can't, just harder and more conditional). The main use of the assassin will probably be conditions, if one was using the dagger line up. And thus the r/a can spam more of those condition-dealing attacks and cover them much more easily with apply poison, which is hard to use as an assassin efficiently. Think about it: the crippling strike, temple, twisting, apply poison, that's 6 conditions right in one go under TF, and can be spread through fevered dreams. A/R simply cannot spam that with both TF and apply poison. Maybe without apply poison and TF, but then it's a much slower spike overall

Siru
02-04-2006, 22:37
There's still this one little thing what I can't understand what you are trying to say:

The slower rate of regeneration of a Ranger's energy can easily be remedied with a set of zealous daggers. When combined with Tiger's Fury, I have found that I have pretty much limitless eenrgy.
So I'll put a zealous mod on R/A's daggers = 2 energy regeneration.

Longer time to recover from attacks
As this means - when you are not attacking. When playing a melee fighter you know you can't just hit everything all the time so the TF+zealous mod can't be counted in these situations - it counts in here:

Can keep preasure on the target for long times (can do 4+ combos with an ease [=expertise])
See my point?

Lefaras
02-04-2006, 22:41
However, the main point of the assassin in high lvl pvp will probably not be so much damage, since in raw damage it might be hard to match wars (not saying they can't, just harder and more conditional). The main use of the assassin will probably be conditions, if one was using the dagger line up. And thus the r/a can spam more of those condition-dealing attacks and cover them much more easily with apply poison, which is hard to use as an assassin efficiently. Think about it: the crippling strike, temple, twisting, apply poison, that's 6 conditions right in one go under TF, and can be spread through fevered dreams. A/R simply cannot spam that with both TF and apply poison. Maybe without apply poison and TF, but then it's a much slower spike overall

Erm.... why do assasin have problem spaming with apply poison, other than that assasin will have a shorter duration and use more energy than ranger? Since assasin have 4 energy regen and apply posion is a prep which u can cast beforehand so energy shouldn't be a prob and the extra points in Wilderness Survival granted by the runes only give a few sec which is no biggi......

Reikai
03-04-2006, 03:34
However, the main point of the assassin in high lvl pvp will probably not be so much damage, since in raw damage it might be hard to match wars (not saying they can't, just harder and more conditional). The main use of the assassin will probably be conditions, if one was using the dagger line up. And thus the r/a can spam more of those condition-dealing attacks and cover them much more easily with apply poison, which is hard to use as an assassin efficiently. Think about it: the crippling strike, temple, twisting, apply poison, that's 6 conditions right in one go under TF, and can be spread through fevered dreams. A/R simply cannot spam that with both TF and apply poison. Maybe without apply poison and TF, but then it's a much slower spike overall

I was actually thinking about something similar. As I PvP often, I usually think from a PvP point of view... even in PvE. Because Assassin's "spike" can easily be infused, I doubt that they will be actually used for "spiking" in PvP... instead more of conditions, or just rendering key targets useless.

a R/A with expertise wouldu easily be able to keep this up for a much longer period of time, whilst a sin primary wouldnt... Although +1/3 energy per second might be useful, being able to cut energy costs by up to even 60%+ would be much better :/

Nanashi
03-04-2006, 04:23
Damgae wise, Critical Strikes would probably be better in the short run... but overall Expertise allows you to spam assassin skills like no tomorrow... (think Zealous + Repeating Strike spam... +3X every attack... can critical strikes compare to this?)

Expertise doesn't allow you to spam anything, it just decreases the ammount of energy cost per skill. Spammage is based on speed, how fast you shoot arrows, and such. If you're attacks all cost 5 energy, which I managed to pull off, energy shouldn't be too much of a problem as an assassin primary if you have zealious weapons.

MaximumSquid
03-04-2006, 05:18
look at it this way an assassin is a melee form of a ranger word. . .

and hey!

If you can get them to stack. . .like a death blossom spike or something. . .more power to you.

The majority of their skills don't overlap at all though =-/

Masoj Hunett
03-04-2006, 23:00
energy management isn't hard for assassins fyi. There is critical strikes giving you some damage, zealous daggers help, and most importantly, there are a couple skills giving you energy, one being an enchantment, one being an off-hand, and one being a lead.

jibikao
05-04-2006, 23:31
Interesting debate.

I do feel kinda weird that A.Net created a new profession that Ranger can use so efficiently.

Haven't really tried Assassin in Preview but R/A seems like a great combo.

Other issues that need to be covered is the skills under Expertise. Escape is one great skill for melee. You can retrieve with it or attack with it. There is a reason why they put Escape in that pre-made build. +30 elememtal resistance really puts Ele in disadvantage.

Can't wait to try out Asn primary and see how they compare.

Sadow
05-04-2006, 23:39
As this means - when you are not attacking. When playing a melee fighter you know you can't just hit everything all the time so the TF+zealous mod can't be counted in these situations - it counts in here:


When I tested out the R/A, there were very few times were I was not actively involved in a fight. An Assassin, after all, is merely baggage if they are not actively involved in a fight.

There are some situations where it is impossible to hit someone, such as an Aegis/Ward Against Melee Monk, but additional energy recovery will not assist in helping you to hit them (unless you bring skills specifically designed to counteract evading/blocking).

I can see your point, however. There are many non-attack skills in the Assassin's repertoire, which is where the additional energy recovery can come in handy. I consider Ranger/Assassins to be the more "melee-based" of the two, due to their ability to knock off large amounts of combos and increased survivability against heavy elemental spiking.

Obviously, it will be impossible to tell without extensive testing. I suppose the old adage is to simply play what you enjoy. My only hope is that guilds will begin to come up with ways to incorporate Assassins into team play.