PDA

View Full Version : The Dagger FAQ v2.0 (effective DPS versus melee/bow weapons)



shaktiboi
05-04-2006, 21:09
(Part 1 of 2)

================================================
Introduction
==================================================

Before the introduction of the Assassin class in GW:Prophecies, comparing the base damage per second (DPS) of the available melee and bow weapons was fairly straightforward. With the introduction of daggers and the Assassin class, however, comparing base weapon DPS becomes much less intuitive because of the following factors:


Base weapon DPS depends on the weapon speed, the weapon’s listed damage range, inherent EAL adjustments such as the 10% base AP for horn bows, the percent chance of crits, and the -20 AL GSM for crits.
Daggers, unlike other weapons, do not have one single speed. Instead, the speed varies depending on your ranks in Dagger Master, ranging from 1.33 seconds per attack at 0 ranks to 1.00 seconds per attack at 16 ranks in Dagger Mastery.
If you are an Assassin primary, the percentage chance of a critical hit (a “crit”) for all weapons is no longer dependent solely on your ranks in the corresponding weapon skill. It is now also affected by your ranks in Critical Strikes, and also by the “Critical Eye” skill.


This FAQ contains the following sections:

A concise summary of the relative base DPS of all weapons in the post-Factions game, factoring in the effect of the -20 AL GSM for crits, the 10% base AP value of a horn bow or of 10 ranks in strength for a Warrior primary, and weapon speeds.
An explanation of how dagger speed changes with each rank of Dagger Mastery
An explanation of how the Critical Strikes attribute and the Critical Eye skill affects your energy regen rate.
Basic conclusions we can draw from all this information.
Some personal observations from playing a level 20 Assassin in the Factions Preview Event.
The basic facts, formulas, and derivations that were used in producing this FAQ.


The facts and derivations used in this FAQ are based on the following sources:


SonOfRah’s excellent Damage Article: http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=157#TDE
Deford’s post in the GWOnline Community forum that explains some inaccuracies in SonOfRah’s essay: http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?p=4004064#post4004064


Also, I want to give thanks to Arredondo and zampani for their comments and explanations on my original Dagger FAQ. In particular, zampani pointed out the need to factor in the base AP% for Strength and horn bows and the need to factor in the -20 AL GSM for crits for a better understanding of how Assassin primaries get a significantly larger proportional benefit from critical damage on melee weapons, which makes the true DPS of daggers wielded by an Assassin primary actually very close to the DPS of axes or swords wielded by a Warrior, which wasn’t at all obvious from the numbers in my original FAQ.

================================================
The Relative DPS Tables
==================================================

The following tables are focused on the weapon-specific factors in the total Damage Formula, which looks like this (I’m using Deford’s corrected version of SonOfRah’s formula):

Received Damage = (Victim’s Damage Enhancement) x [[(Attacker’s Damage Enhancement) x (Base Damage) x (Armor Modifier)] + (Bonus Damage)]

By weapon-specific factors, I mean the (Base Damage) portion of the formula, coupled with part of the (Armor Modifier) part of the formula. In particular, the (Armor Modifier) contains bits that relate to the -20 AL GSM modifier for critical hits, and also contains bits that relate to the effect of base AP% from Strength and for horn bows.

The following DPS values are based on these assumptions:

12 ranks in the corresponding weapon skill. This is the optimum value, because at 13 ranks and higher, the improvements to the Baseline portion of the (Armor Modifier) are only 2 per rank instead of 5 per rank). You always have to ask whether the huge number of skill points you spend to get 13 – 16 ranks wouldn’t be more worthwhile elsewhere, considering the improvement past rank 12 is so much less.
13 ranks in Critical Strikes (for Assassin primaries). This is the optimum value due both to maximizing crit potential, but also to getting +3 energy back per crit because Assassin is an energy-hungry class.
10 ranks in Strength for the Warrior primary table (the 4th table). For a Warrior primary that doesn’t use any Strength, see the non-Assassin primary table (the 3rd table). Note that for Warriors with 10 Strength, the base AP% for Strength does not stack with the base AP% for a horn bow. Also note that 10 Strength isn’t necessarily an optimum value; it just makes the AP% a nice, even 10% which makes it easy to compare with Horn Bows.


Base Weapon DPS for Assassin primaries, WITH Critical Eye running full-time (35% crit chance)


Hammer Base DPS: 19.8
Axe Base DPS: 18.8
Sword Base DPS: 17.2
Dagger Base DPS: 15.1
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 14.0
Horn Bow Base DPS: 11.5
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 11.2


Base Weapon DPS for Assassin primaries, WITHOUT Critical Eye (29% crit chance)


Hammer Base DPS: 19.1
Axe Base DPS: 17.8
Sword Base DPS: 16.6
Dagger Base DPS: 14.5
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 13.4
Horn Bow Base DPS: 11.0
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 10.7


Base Weapon DPS for non-Assassin primaries with NO Strength attribute (16% crit chance)


Hammer Base DPS: 17.4
Axe Base DPS: 15.5
Sword Base DPS: 15.4
Dagger Base DPS: 13.0
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 12.2
Horn Bow Base DPS: 10.1
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 9.8


Base Weapon DPS for Warrior primaries with 10 ranks in Strength (16% crit chance)


Hammer Base DPS: 19.4
Axe Base DPS: 17.3
Sword Base DPS: 17.5
Dagger Base DPS: 14.2
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 13.6
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 10.9
Horn Bow Base DPS: 10.1



================================================
Understanding Dagger Mastery and Dagger Speed
==================================================

The Dagger Mastery attribute works like all other weapon mastery attributes in that it affects your Baseline portion of the Armor Modifier:

12 ranks gives you a Baseline of 60. This is optimal.
For each rank below 12, subtract 5 from the Baseline.
For each rank above 12, add 2 to the Baseline.


Dagger Mastery also works like all other weapon masteries in that it partiallyaffects your base chance to score a critical hit, to the tune of 1 + (1.25 x Attribute). Some examples:

16% at 12 ranks (1+[1.25 x 12] = 16)
12% at 9 ranks (1+[1.25 x 9] = 12.25)
21% at 16 ranks (1+[1.25 x 16] = 21)


The other factor to consider with crit chance % is the relative level of you versus your opponent. If you are exactly the same level, the preceding numbers apply, but if you above or below your opponent’s level, the preceding numbers double or halve every 5 levels in difference, as follows:

For every 5 levels you are above your opponent, your crit chance doubles. For example, if you are level 20, with 12 ranks in your weapon mastery, and your opponent is level 15, your base crit chance is 32%. If your opponent is level 10, your base crit chance is 64%, etc.
For every 5 levels you are below your opponent, your crit chance halves. For example, if you are level 15, with 12 ranks in weapon mastery, and your opponent is 20, your crit chance is 8%.


Where Dagger Mastery does not work like the other weapon masteries is that it also affects the overall speed of your Daggers. The base Dagger speed is the same as swords and axes (1.33 seconds per attack). But for each rank of Dagger Mastery, you also get a 2% chance to strike twice in one attack. If you have 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery, you have a 24% chance on any given attack to strike twice. On average, then, every 100 attacks will yield 124 strikes, which equates to a 24% increase in overall weapon speed.

So a simple formula for determining your effective dagger speed is this:

Dagger Speed = 1.33 / [1 + (Attribute x .02)]

Some examples:

9 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.13 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.18)
12 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.07 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.24)
16 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.00 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.32)


Why is knowing the speed of your dagger important? One obvious reason is that it affects your overall DPS, with faster speeds meaning more DPS than slower speeds. A less obvious reason is that it also affects the rate at which you regen energy from your Critical Strikes attribute and from your Critical Eye skill. Which leads us to the next section…

================================================
Understanding the Energy Regen Rate for Assassins
==================================================

Assassins are a very energy-hungry class. Our armor has the same base physical AL as Ranger armor (70 AL), but we get two pieces that provide +1 energy regen, for a total of 4 pips of energy regen, just like casters get. (On the downside, we don’t get the 30AL of elemental armor that Rangers get.)

On top of the 4 pips of energy regen provided by our armor, we also get an energy bonus per crit from the effect of our Critical Strikes attribute and from the use of the Critical Eye skill. Note that only Assassin primaries can reap these bonuses:

Critical Eye gives us +1 energy bonus per crit
13 ranks in Critical Strikes gives us +3 energy bonus per crit
at 7 or 8 or 9 ranks in Critical Strikes (I can’t remember which), you get +2 energy bonus per crit
Below 7 or 8 or 9 ranks in Critical Strikes, you get +1 energy bonus per crit
Critical Eye stacks with Critical Strikes, so at 13 ranks in Critical Strikes and with Critical Eye running, you get a total energy bonus of +4 energy per crit


The formula to figure your additional energy regen rate from crits is this, and again, this formula applies only to Assassin primaries:

Pips = (Crit Chance % x Energy Bonus) / Dagger Speed

Where:

Pips (also called “ticks”) is the average amount of energy regained each second
Crit Chance is the decimal value of your total percentage crit chance
Energy Bonus is the total stacked energy bonus per crit from Critical Strikes and Critical Eye


Some examples:

1.3 Pips for 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery, 13 ranks in Critical Strikes and Critical Eye running full time during battle ([0.35 x 4] / 1.07). The 12 ranks of Dagger Mastery gives you 1.07 dagger speed and a 16% base crit chance. The 13 ranks in Critical Strikes gives you 3 energy bonus and another 13% crit chance. The Critical Eye gives you 1 energy bonus (stackable), plus another 6% crit chance (stackable). Your total crit chance is therefore 35% and your total energy bonus is therefore 4.
0.8 Pips for the same stats as above, only with no Critical Eye running ([0.29 x 3] / 1.07). This drops your crit chance by 6% and your energy bonus by 1.
1.1 Pips for 12 ranks in Axe Mastery, 13 ranks in Critical Strikes and Critical Eye running full time during battle ([0.35 x 4] / 1.33). The 12 ranks of Axe Mastery gives you 1.33 weapon speed and a 16% base crit chance. The 13 ranks in Critical Strikes gives you 3 energy bonus and another 13% crit chance. The Critical Eye gives you 1 energy bonus (stackable), plus another 6% crit chance (stackable). Your total crit chance is therefore 35% and your total energy bonus is therefore 4.
0.4 Pips for 9 ranks in Dagger Mastery, 12 ranks in Critical Strikes, and no Critical Eye running ([0.24 x 2] / 1.13). The 9 ranks of Dagger Mastery gives you 1.13 dagger speed and a 12% base crit chance. The 12 ranks in Critical Strikes gives you 2 energy bonus and another 12% crit chance. Your total crit chance is therefore 24% and your total energy bonus is therefore 2.


As you can see from the examples, the total energy regen rate provided by your critical strikes can vary quite widely depending on your Weapon Mastery (and speed) and Critical Strikes attributes, and depending on whether or not you can fit Critical Eye into your build. Hitting rank 13 in Critical Strikes is an especially important “sweet spot” that significantly affects your regen rate, and Critical Eye also has a dramatic effect. Also, the comparison between Daggers and Axes highlights the effect of daggers’ faster weapon speed on your total energy regen rate.


================================================
Comparing Assassin Spike Damage Versus Other Classes
==================================================

There has been much argument over whether Assassins can equal the damage output of Rangers or Warriors, especially in terms of “spike” damage. I have even argued in the past that dagger spike output is probably considerably less than for other weapons. This might not actually be the case, however.

Spike damage output has two components:


How much damage you can pile on in one combo skill chain
How rapidly the combo chain recharges so that you can apply it again


People look at the big damage bonuses on some Axe and Hammer skills, for example, which are literally twice the amount of most Dagger skills, and they conclude that obviously, Dagger spike damage output is inferior to what you can achieve with Warrior weapons. What is less obvious is that the three different types of dagger attacks can be very rapidly spammed, compared to most non-dagger skills which require rage to regenerate after each attack in the combo chain.

I don’t have the stamina to perform an exhaustive analysis of dagger spike combos versus non-dagger spike combos, but I will point out the simple fact that you can instantly chain-cast a Lead attack and an Off-Hand attack as fast as you can press your hotkeys, and if you add up the damage bonus on most Lead and Off-Hand attacks, the cumulative damage bonus is roughly equal to the big damage bonuses you see on a single axe or hammer attack.

I’ll also point out the fact that a Dual attack strikes twice. That doesn’t mean the damage bonus is applied twice (I think – I didn’t get a chance to test this during FPE), but underneath the listed damage bonus is the damage from two normal attacks, so that’s a type of “hidden” damage bonus in every dual attack.

My hunch, therefore, is that Assassin primaries can devise damage combos that can come very close to dealing the single-instance spike damage equivalent to that of Warrior or Ranger primaries.

My other hunch is that Assassin primaries can NOT equal the sustained spike output of Warriors or Rangers unless the Assassin invests heavily in Critical Strikes and tries to fit Critical Eye into their build, in order to maximize their total energy regen rate to 5 pips or better. The reason I suspect this requirement is necessary for sustained spike output is because all the Assassin skills are very energy-hungry. To repeat your spike combos as often as they recharge requires a lot of energy.

I would love it somebody could post a comprehensive analysis of spike damage, both in one instance and sustained over time, between Assassins and other classes. This is an area that still needs investigation.


================================================
Conclusions
==================================================

Some interesting conclusions can be drawn from the information in the preceding sections. Some of these conclusions are simple facts, while others are subjective interpretations of my own. Your interpretations might be different, or you might reach some useful conclusions that I didn’t think of. Please share your interpretations in replies to this thread for everyone’s benefit.

Note: Where I mention “DPS” in the following list, I’m talking only about the base DPS provided by your normal weapon attacks. Total DPS is dependent on the other skills you use in combat.


An A/W or A/Ra build can do more DPS with MOST weapons than any W/x or Ra/x primary, even more than a W/x build with 10 ranks in Strength! The only exception is for swords (for a W/x build with 10 Strength), but even here the DPS is very close.

Dagger DPS for an Assassin primary is almost equal with Axe and Sword DPS for a Warrior primary if that Warrior is not using their Strength attribute (many warriors don’t put points into Strength).

Dagger DPS beats Bow DPS (all types) across the board in every possible primary/secondary combination.

Players considering an A/W build that does *not* use Dagger weapons should ask themselves whether giving up high physical AL (from Warrior armor and Shield) is worth the access to higher weapon DPS, tactical teleport and shutdown skills, and +2 to +3.3 pips of additional energy regen. If the energy regen rate is an important factor, you can get 4 pips of regen “for free” just by dint of having Assassin armor, but to get 5.3 total pips of regen, you’ll need to put a lot of points into Critical Strikes and plan to use Critical Eye in your build. Note that I don’t even consider the loss of Strength a factor in the decision, because the relative damage tables show that the gain in crit chance more than offsets the loss of base AP% from strength. (How many warriors invest more than 10 ranks in Strength, if even that much?)

Players considering an A/Ra build should ask themselves whether giving up 30 elemental AL (from Ranger Armor) and giving up the energy-efficiency of Expertise is worth the access to higher weapon DPS, tactical teleport and shutdown skills, and +1 to +2.3 pips of additional energy regen. Many high-Expertise Ranger primary builds that rely on skills that benefit from Expertise are probably more energy-efficient than anything you could do with an A/Ra build. IMO if you like the combination of Ranger and Assassin, I’d look carefully at Ra/A builds first.

Players who are concerned about spike damage should remember that they need to look at how fast they can pull off and repeat a 2- to 5-part dagger combo, and how often they can repeat it, versus pulling off their favorite non-dagger combo. Remember to add up all the seemingly small damage bonuses on those dagger attacks, and remember that dual attacks always strike twice, which adds a “hidden” damage bonus to the listed damage bonus of a dual attack. IMO the spike output of a dagger-based Assassin primary can at least equal, if not exceed, most Warrior or Ranger primary classes. There’s a reason we’re more squishy than both warriors and rangers.

shaktiboi
05-04-2006, 21:11
(Part 2 of 2)

================================================
My Personal Observations From The Factions Preview Event
==================================================

During FPE, I mostly played an A/Mo that had no points in Monk attributes, and only one Monk skill on the toolbar (Rebirth). I did this because I wanted to see how a mostly “pure” Assassin would perform.

Even though I was at level 20, I had only 9 ranks in Dagger Mastery for most of my builds, which provided a less-than-optimal Base Value for my overall DPS, not to mention a less-than-optimal dagger speed and crit chance. I did this because I was heavily testing higher values in Shadow Arts and Deadly Arts and didn’t want to take away from my Critical Strikes value of 12 ranks. (And note that with CS of 12, I was getting an energy bonus of only 2 per crit).

Despite my low baseline and my lower-than-optimal energy bonus from crits, I STILL tore up foes and performed very well as a tank in PvE quests with a mostly-henchman party (and my wife as the only other PC). I would usually charge in first, not even bothering to send my henchmen in first to take the heat. I did all the target calling, and I certainly took a lot of the initial “alpha” onslaught from each new group of foes.

I rarely died, even when performing this role that an Assassin was not designed for. And even with mostly dim-witted henchmen in the party.

What I found is that you can be QUITE survivable as a pure Assassin even when charging in first, because you have so many nice self-healing, damage mitigation, and teleport tactics available to you. So my advice regarding your secondary class if you want to play an assassin primary is:

A. If you solo or duo with one partner (with the rest of the group composed of henchment) and your focus is mostly PvE exploration and questing, then go with a Monk or Ritualist secondary, don't waste any attribute points on Monk or Ritualist attributes, and just keep one reusable rez (Rebirth or Flesh of My Flesh) on your toolbar. You'll still rock as a meleer, but you'll be able to recover the team from the many deaths than tend to occur during PvE missions.

B. If your focus is mostly PvE but you regularly team with large groups of real players so you don't need a repeatable rez, then go with an A/W build if you enjoy having many options for tactical melee fighting. You'll be able to use every melee weapon and its associated skills as suits your mood. Some people might think that an A/Ra or an Ra/A is fun and useful, but IMO, the main strength (and fun!) of an Assassin is tactical mobility to get in and out on certain targets, and Rangers don't need that ability.

C. If your focus is mostly PvP, look for any secondary that gives you nice spike combos and still leaves room for some shadow-stepping tactical skills. For example, A/Me is particularly nice with Mantra of Signets > Palm Strike > Blinding Powder > Signet of Shadows > Signet of Shadows for a 200-point opening damage spike, which you can follow 12 seconds later with Palm Strike > Repeated Strike and just keep spamming Repeated Strike till you run out of energy or Repeated Strike finally misses. This leaves you two slots for nice Assassin utility skills.

================================================
OTHER USEFUL INFO AND DERIVATIONS ==================================================


Axes, Swords, and Daggers all have a base weapon speed of 1.33 seconds per strike. (But Dagger Mastery effectively increases the weapon speed of daggers as described in a preceding section.)
Hammers have a weapon speed of 1.75 seconds per strike.
Bows have a weapon speed of 2.0 (short/flat), 2.5 (long/comp), and 2.7 (horn) seconds per strike.
Horn bows have a base armor penetration (AP) of 10%.
Strength confers a base AP of 1% per rank in Strength.
Base damage per strike for all weapon types is calculated the same way.
The base weapon damage number used in damage calculations is ALWAYS a random value from the weapon's listed damage range. (You do not use higher values from the range as your corresponding weapon skill increases; instead, your damage is greater because of the relative level of your weapon skill versus the target's AL and other defensive attributes.)
Critical hits always use the maximum value of the weapon's damage range and the target's EAL value is reduced by -20 AL GSM; other than those two exceptions, critical damage is calculated like normal damage. (So crits do not ignore armor or do double-damage or ignore relative attack/defense levels, etc. as they do in other MMOGs.)
SonOfRah’s explanation of positional damage and shield positional defense is no longer correct. Shield AL is applied from all sides when attacked. The same damage is incurred no matter what positional facing you use during attacks. (This info isn’t directly relevant to this Dagger FAQ, but it’s good info discovered by Deford that I want to make sure gets passed around.


Using all the facts from this and preceding sections, we can make the following derivations, based on SonOfRah’s damage formulas:



Critical Damage Modifier (-20 AL): 2^[(60-40)/40] = 1.4142
Horn Bow Median Damage Modifier (10% AP): 2^[[60-(60x0.9)]/40] = 1.1096
Horn Bow Crit Dam Modifier (10% AP, -20 AL): 2^[[60-[(60x0.9)-20]]/40] = 1.5692
Str 10 Median Dam Modifier (10% AP): 2^[[60-(60x0.9)]/40] = 1.1096
Str 10 Crit Dam Modifier (10% AP, -20 AL): 2^[[60-[(60x0.9)-20]]/40] = 1.5692

** Note: Str 10 and Horn Bow AP mods are both BASE AP% and will not stack
** Note: Only Warrior primaries can have Str 10 mods, which means
only 16% crit chance at 12 ranks in weapon mastery

Hammer Damage Range: 19-35
Hammer Median Damage: 27 ( 19 + [[35 - 19] / 2] )
10 Str Hammer Median Dam: 30 ( 27 * 1.1096 ) ! 10% base AP
Hammer Critical Damage: 49 ( 35 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
10 Str Hammer Crit Dam: 55 ( 35 * 1.5692 ) ! -20 AL and 10% base AP
Hammer DPS (35% crit): 19.8 ( [[27 * .65] + [49 * .35]] / 1.75 )
10 Str Hammer DPS: 19.4 ( [[30 * .84] + [55 * .16]] / 1.75 )
Hammer DPS (29% crit): 19.1 ( [[27 * .71] + [49 * .29]] / 1.75 )
Hammer DPS (16% crit): 17.4 ( [[27 * .84] + [49 * .16]] / 1.75 )


Axe Damage Range: 6-28
Axe Median Damage: 17 ( 6 + [[28 - 6] / 2] )
10 Str Axe Median Dam: 19 ( 17 * 1.1096 ) ! 10% base AP
Axe Critical Damage: 40 ( 28 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
10 Str Axe Crit Dam: 44 ( 28 * 1.5692 ) ! -20 AL and 10% base AP
Axe DPS (35% crit): 18.8 ( [[17 * .65] + [40 * .35]] / 1.33 )
Axe DPS (29% crit): 17.8 ( [[17 * .71] + [40 * .29]] / 1.33 )
10 Str Axe DPS: 17.3 ( [[19 * .84] + [44 * .16]] / 1.33 )
Axe DPS (16% crit): 15.5 ( [[17 * .84] + [40 * .16]] / 1.33 )

Sword Damage Range: 15-22
Sword Median Damage: 18.5 ( 15 + [[22 - 15] / 2] )
10 Str Sword Median Dam: 21 ( 18.5 * 1.1096 ) ! 10% base AP
Sword Critical Damage: 31 ( 22 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
10 Str Sword Crit Dam: 35 ( 22 * 1.5692 ) ! -20 AL and 10% base AP
10 Str Sword DPS: 17.5 ( [[21 * .84] + [35 * .16]] / 1.33 )
Sword DPS (35% crit): 17.2 ( [[18.5 * .65] + [31 * .35]] / 1.33 )
Sword DPS (29% crit): 16.6 ( [[18.5 * .71] + [31 * .29]] / 1.33 )
Sword DPS (16% crit): 15.4 ( [[18.5 * .84] + [31 * .16]] / 1.33 )

Dagger Damage Range: 7-17
Dagger Median Damage: 12 ( 7 + [[17 - 7] / 2] )
10 Str Dagger Median Dam: 13 ( 12 * 1.1096 ) ! 10% base AP
Dagger Critical Damage: 24 ( 17 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
10 Str Dagger Crit Dam: 27 ( 17 * 1.5692 ) ! -20 AL and 10% base AP
Dagger DPS (35% crit): 15.1 ( [[12 * .65] + [24 * .35]] / 1.07 )
Dagger DPS (29% crit): 14.5 ( [[12 * .71] + [24 * .29]] / 1.07 )
10 Str Dagger DPS: 14.2 ( [[13 * .84] + [27 * .16]] / 1.07 )
Dagger DPS (16% crit): 13.0 ( [[12 * .84] + [24 * .16]] / 1.07 )

Bow Damage Range: 15-28
Bow Median Damage: 21.5 ( 15 + [[28 - 15] / 2] )
10 Str Bow Median Damage: 24 ( 21.5 * 1.1096 ) ! 10% AP
Bow Critical Damage: 40 ( 28 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
10 Str Bow Critical Damage: 44 ( 28 * 1.5692 ) ! -20 AL and 10% AP
Horn Bow Median Damage: 24 ( 21.5 * 1.1096 ) ! 10% AP
Horn Bow Critical Damage: 44 ( 28 * 1.5692 ) ! -20 AL and 10% AP

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (35% crit): 14.0 ( [[21.5 * .65] + [40 * .35]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (35% crit): 11.5 ( [[24 * .65] + [44 * .35]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (35% crit): 11.2 ( [[21.5 * .65] + [40 * .35]] / 2.5 )

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (29% crit): 13.4 ( [[21.5 * .71] + [40 * .29]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (29% crit): 11.0 ( [[24 * .71] + [44 * .29]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (29% crit): 10.7 ( [[21.5 * .71] + [40 * .29]] / 2.5 )

10 Str Sht/Flt Bow DPS: 13.6 ( [[24 * .84] + [44 * .16]] / 2.0 )
Sht/Flt Bow DPS (16% crit): 12.2 ( [[21.5 * .84] + [40 * .16]] / 2.0 )
10 Str Lng/Cmp Bow DPS: 10.9 ( [[24 * .84] + [44 * .16]] / 2.5 )
Horn Bow DPS (16% crit): 10.1 ( [[24 * .84] + [44 * .16]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (16% crit): 9.8 ( [[21.5 * .84] + [40 * .16]] / 2.5 )

CyanBoy
05-04-2006, 22:22
Woah! That is a VERY nice guide! I didn't read all of it, but i can say GREAT JOB!
It is abit confusing, but i guess that if you really want to be a good Assassin, you should read this guide.

Must have taken a long time - How long did it take?

shaktiboi
05-04-2006, 23:04
Must have taken a long time - How long did it take?

The revision for v2 took about 8 hours. 'Sokay, it's a labor of love because I really really REALLY liked the way an Assassin primary felt and played during FPE, and I really wanted to have definitive answers to the questions and (often erroneous, but well-intentioned) arguments about this and that regarding Daggers and the Assassin's damage potential.

ArichValtrahn
05-04-2006, 23:24
Just awesome. Great work.

Bobross
05-04-2006, 23:39
Other things to consider with Ranger and Warrior secondaries/primaries when making those choices are the relevant skills. Both have a few speed buffs, and aoe attacks. Barrage spamming and cyclone axe will do aoe damage and cause more crits if you're an assassin primary, which means sick energy and lots of damage. Likewise, tiger's fury will up a ranger's DPS (as it'll do for a ranger secondary *hint*). Not worth analyzing here as its a lot of variables, but when you're considering which build to get, keep those things in mind...

arredondo
05-04-2006, 23:39
Nice work once again. I'll read it in more detail later, but a few interesting things caught my eye...

- I can confirm that at CS L8 is where you begin to earn +2E per crit strike. I specifically tested this when playing with my builds at BWE.

- I'm almost positive that you get the skill damage twice from every double strike. I feel 95% sure on that, but would need to play again to confirm.

- I'm a power build user myself - I go all out to get max results from my numbers when at all possible. With that in mind, here are some extra examples of how builds can be affected above the +1.3E pip example with some extra tweaking if they don't mind using a Sup. Rune (I always use one myself on all my builds). Assume you are using Critical Eye:

If you go with L16 Critical Strikes (12+3+1) and L13 Dagger Mastery, your chance of hitting a Crit shoots from 35% to 40%, and your pip rate goes up a total of 1.53 more than your base 4 pips ([0.40 x 4] / 1.06).

If you go with L16 Dagger Mastery (12+3+1) and L13 Critical Strikes, your chance of hitting a Crit shoots from 35% to 40%, your improved chance to hit twice (32%) makes your "virtual" Dagger speed is now about one hit per second, and your pip rate goes up a total of 1.60 more than your base 4 pips ([0.40 x 4] / 1.00).

Obviously this helps your all around attack game in many ways as an Assassin primary. Just keep in mind that you use the normal 1.33 speed rate without the Double Strike % modifier when you are using Assassin attack skills since they never Double Strike.

For my own reference since I'll use modifiers in my builds:

- L16 DM and L13 CS with CE enabled gives you 17 DPS, which goes up to 23 DPS with +20% customization damage bonus and a +15% damage when >50% health mod, along with an extra +1.6E pip.

- L16 DM and L13 CS withOUT CE enabled gives you 16 DPS, which goes up to 22 DPS with +20% customization damage bonus and a +15% damage when >50% health mod, along with an extra +1.0E pip.

Syes
06-04-2006, 01:08
On the issue of double striking skills, I can't say I tested them all, but from my experience a double strike whilst using a skill is as if the skill was used twice. The below screenshot, for example, shows the to adjacent damage of Death Blossom hitting twice.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/myodato/DeathBlossom1.jpg

A few other things that you can gain from this screenie are that one of the double-strike is a critical, one isn't, so they are treated as separate 'attack rolls' and that only the attack on the main target activated my Vampiric Daggers, so the AoE damage of Death Blossom does not count as hits in the same way as Cyclone Axe or Hundred Blades would. Minor details compared to the great work above, but worth considering none the less.

This was at Dagger Mastery 14 and Crit 8 or 9 btw.

I'd also like to say that I'm very much looking forward to people translating the (excellent) maths from Shaktiboi into practical and condensed advice. For example, I'd still very much like to here a good argument for ever lowering your Daggery Mastery to increase your Critical Stikes (with the possible exception of hitting the 8/13 sweet spots of course).

Once again, very good work.

zampani
06-04-2006, 02:48
Awesome update shaktiboi! This is definetly going to help with decision making time when it comes to building my Assassin. I know it struck a couple quesion in my mind, a couple of which were pointed out by arredondo and at least one that was answered by Syes. One more I'm curious to find an answer to:

Does a skill like Barrage, or Cyclone Axe roll for each target when looking for a crit? And if so, could an A/W or A/Ra get multiple energy bonuses for these? Or is damage rolled once and applied to each effective AL?


Also I found a couple of things I noted that could be clarified. Clarifications are minor at worst, but in case someone is nitpicking (like me! :wink: ) here they are.

On the term "pip"



Pips (also called “ticks”) is the average amount of energy regained each second


While the use of "Pips" is fairly constant throughout the document, it can easily be confused with the definition that is popular throughout the GW community. Generally the term "pip" is used to indicate a single arrow of health or energy regeneration. We are specifically analyzing energy here, and so in that context a single arrow of energy regen is equal to .33 regen / second. So to truely represent energy pips as opposed to just energy / second (which is also helpful) the equation might be changed to this:

Pips = (Crit Chance % x Energy Bonus) / Dagger Speed / .33

This should result in the approximate number of energy pips (small arrows) that your energy gain is equivilent to.

On Warriors Strength bonus and DPS



Strength confers a base AP of 1% per rank in Strength.


This is true, and nowhere does shaktiboi incorrectly use this. It is important to note for those who don't already know that this bonus is only applied when a Warrior uses an attack skill, not during regular attacks. So what that means is on your Cleave, Power Attack, Wild Blow, etc. you'll get penetration due to your Strength, you will see no effect on normal swings of your weapon.

Once again, awesome job! This just makes me that much more excited to give the Assassin a spin in a few weeks. :grin:

Bobross
06-04-2006, 03:22
Found the same thing true for critical strike, it hit twice for the same damage both times...also as both hits were criticals...it cost a whopping 10 energy and returned 6 (I didn't have any runes at the time, with Crit 13 and critical eye, it'd return 8). 2 energy for 80-90 damage sounds good to me:).

I was ruminating on the energy regain, I thought about flurry, lasts 5 seconds and boosts attack speed but drops damage. I was really hoping that this could be used to recharge energy after a combo.

Using that very helpful analysis, I ran some numbers.


So it costs 5 energy,
12 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.07 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.24) x .67 = .7169

13 ranks in Critical Strikes and critical eye so 35% crit chance.

1.395 attacks/second (inverse of above) x 35% crit chance x 4 energy = 1.95 energy/second. x 5 seconds = 9.76, so after 5 seconds you will be ahead...but sadly, the difference isn't that great compared to without flurry (6.5 energy in 5 seconds). So it doesn't actually make up for the cost of the skill...ah well..The nice thing, however is that with this build, you'd only be losing a net of 1.74 for the increased attack speed...maybe I'll figure out what the difference is in DPS.

Bestial fury shows promise too, but alas, it requires points in beast mastery to use, costs 10 and lasts 10 seconds at most...so you'd wind up losing energy also on that. At least in that case you're doing much more DPS though and most of the energy is recovered.

shaktiboi
06-04-2006, 05:18
Great comments/additions by everyone so far. Zampani comes through again with two really excellent clarifications, though...



Also I found a couple of things I noted that could be clarified. Clarifications are minor at worst, but in case someone is nitpicking (like me! :wink: ) here they are.

On the term "pip"

While the use of "Pips" is fairly constant throughout the document, it can easily be confused with the definition that is popular throughout the GW community. Generally the term "pip" is used to indicate a single arrow of health or energy regeneration. We are specifically analyzing energy here, and so in that context a single arrow of energy regen is equal to .33 regen / second. So to truely represent energy pips as opposed to just energy / second (which is also helpful) the equation might be changed to this:

Pips = (Crit Chance % x Energy Bonus) / Dagger Speed / .33

This should result in the approximate number of energy pips (small arrows) that your energy gain is equivilent to.

On Warriors Strength bonus and DPS

This is true, and nowhere does shaktiboi incorrectly use this. It is important to note for those who don't already know that this bonus is only applied when a Warrior uses an attack skill, not during regular attacks. So what that means is on your Cleave, Power Attack, Wild Blow, etc. you'll get penetration due to your Strength, you will see no effect on normal swings of your weapon.

I honestly didn't know that energy regen pips equaled only .33 energy per second (I did look around for the value, really!). This is actually quite good news, IMO, because it means that a 35% crit Assassin primary actually gains the equivalent of + 4 entire pips on the energy bar, just from their crit-based energy regen!

Zaxares
06-04-2006, 06:39
Wow! Superb guide, shaktiboi. :smiley: This is definitely going to help me plan my assassin builds. It's good to know that a pure Assassin build (which is what I'm aiming for) is still a lethal weapon (and capable of pumping out endless damage combos if you use 16 DM and 13 CS).

arredondo
06-04-2006, 06:54
That means my stats give me exactly 9 pips total (5 extra than base). That sounds REALLY good. That translates into an average of +3.0E a second, or per attack with DM at L16.

Heh, I'm off to plot strats with my new toy.

shaktiboi
06-04-2006, 20:25
Yep, looks like you can get a whopping 9 effective pips with 16 DM and 13 CS. And the highest possible crit chance and the fastest dagger speed. Definitely seems like a much better use of points than 16 CS and 13 DM, which gives you the same 40% crit chance, but a slower weapon speed and less energy regen.

Although, if you want to spread points into useful levels of Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts, it's not feasible to do this. You'll only be able to get one of the two up to 4 points, or both of the two up to 3 points.

Note that if you stick with 12 DM total, your DPS will drop a bit, but you'll still get 8 effective pips of energy regen, and still have a very good crit chance (35%), and you'll now have enough leftover points to do useful things with Shadow Arts and Deadly Arts.

arredondo
06-04-2006, 20:38
Heh, I actually show that in action with my newest build... two versions of the "Ultimate Critical Assassin":

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=392929

I get up to a 73% chance at hitting a Crit with the setup I put together. I also tweaked the stats a bit to allow for more Shadow Damage points (taking me to max 69% Crit chance) in an alternate version. I think it is comng along well for a theory build (I can't wait for Factions to come out).

kate sullivan
07-04-2006, 00:38
ton make things clear the dmg from bonus attacks is applied to both attacks in a duel hit
meaning dual hit saying +18 dmg is actually +36 dmg in a dual attack

arredondo
08-04-2006, 10:07
OK, my next project is done. My "Ultimate DPS Assassin" might get up to 61 DPS from melee spam alone. Check it out:

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?p=4011947#post4011947

I think that double strikes are a very significant advantage that Assassin primaries can exploit over the Ra/As class combo. I show in my thread that with a max 56% chance at achieving a double strike, you take your hit-per-second rate down from 1 per 1.33 normally, down to 1 per 1.01 seconds at L16 DM and then down to 1 hit per .81 seconds. You can even go 1 per .48 seconds with further adjustments. An Ra/As can only take it down to 1 hit per 1.0s, so this is something to keep in mind when comparing the two setups.

IWantMORIDIN
08-04-2006, 23:39
================================================
The Relative DPS Tables
==================================================
The following DPS values are based on these assumptions:

16 ranks in the corresponding weapon skill (when possible). This is currently the best values for warriors because it is the best way to increase damage.
13 ranks in Critical Strikes (for Assassin primaries).
+38% damage from customization and 15^50


Base Weapon DPS for Assassin primaries, without Critical Eye (33% crit chance on daggers, 29% on everything else)


Hammer Base DPS: 26.44
Axe Base DPS: 24.44
Sword Base DPS: 22.99
Dagger Base DPS: 19.04
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 18.46
Horn Bow Base DPS: 15.17
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 14.77


Base Weapon DPS for Warrior primaries with NO Strength attribute (20% crit chance)


Hammer Base DPS: 28.53
Axe Base DPS: 25.65
Sword Base DPS: 25.06


Base Weapon DPS for Warrior primaries with 10 ranks in Strength (20% crit chance)


Hammer Base DPS: 28.53
Axe Base DPS: 25.65
Sword Base DPS: 25.06


================================================
Comparing Assassin Spike Damage Versus Other Classes
==================================================

There has been much argument over whether Assassins can equal the damage output of Rangers or Warriors, especially in terms of “spike” damage. I have even argued in the past that dagger spike output is probably considerably less than for other weapons. This is probably the case.

Spike damage output has two components:


How much damage you can pile on in one combo skill chain
How rapidly the combo chain recharges so that you can apply it again
How fast the combo is made


People look at the big damage bonuses on some Axe and Hammer skills, for example, which are literally twice the amount of most Dagger skills, and they conclude that obviously, Dagger spike damage output is inferior to what you can achieve with Warrior weapons. What is less obvious is that dagger attacks are more frontloaded, and get totally decimated by missing your target.

I don’t have the stamina to perform an exhaustive analysis of dagger spike combos versus non-dagger spike combos, but I will point out the simple fact that you can instantly chain-cast a Lead attack and an Off-Hand attack as fast as you can press your hotkeys (just like warriors and rangers), and if you add up the damage bonus on most Lead and Off-Hand attacks, the cumulative damage bonus can be equal or greater than other attacks but is usually heavily conditional.

I’ll also point out the fact that a Dual attack strikes twice. That doesn’t mean the damage bonus is applied twice (I think – I didn’t get a chance to test this during FPE), but underneath the listed damage bonus is the damage from two normal attacks, so that’s a type of “hidden” damage bonus in every dual attack.

My hunch, therefore, is that most Assassin spikes are worse than warrior/ranger spikes because they take longer and are totally destroyed by blocks.

================================================
Conclusions
==================================================

Some interesting conclusions can be drawn from the information in the preceding sections. Some of these conclusions are simple facts, while others are subjective interpretations of my own. Your interpretations might be different, or you might reach some useful conclusions that I didn’t think of. Please share your interpretations in replies to this thread for everyone’s benefit.

Note: Where I mention “DPS” in the following list, I’m talking only about the base DPS provided by you auto attacking one of the 60 AL dummies. Total DPS is dependent on the other skills you use in combat.


With damage buffs a dagger user might be able to get better DPS than warriors.
Dagger DPS for an Assassin primary is pretty bad compared to warriors.

Dagger DPS beats Bow DPS (all types) across the board in every possible primary/secondary combination, because rangers are heavily dependant on preparations for damage (and even then, they aren't that great).

Players considering an A/W build that does *not* use Dagger weapons should ask themselves whether giving up high physical AL (from Warrior armor and Shield) is worth the access to lower weapon DPS and spike, tactical teleport and shutdown skills, and more energy regen.

Players considering an A/Ra build should stop considering an A/Ra and go roll a Ra/A

Players who are concerned about spike damage should run damage analysis on their spike vs Eviscerate+executioners


These are some things that I view differently. Me editing your post was in no way meant to be <insertive negative adjectives here>.

zampani
09-04-2006, 20:52
These are some things that I view differently. Me editing your post was in no way meant to be <insertive negative adjectives here>.
My goodness... where to start.

First: This post is very unhelpful in many ways. As a math teach might say, "Please show your work". It's very difficult to identify your changes from shaktiboi's neatly done work. You've also not shown much support to prove your points. And some of your points seem blatantly wrong.

Second: You have a very good and valid point on including the customization and inherent weapon dmg mods -- most players will be using a weapon with a mod, and many will be using a weapon that is customized (particularly those in PvP). This extra damage does separate the DPS somewhat between weapons; effectively a 5 DPS difference between a Axe and Dagger wielded by an Assassin with this change. But your calculations are off. Customization and inherent mods are "stacking":

Total Dmg = Base Dmg * 1.15 * 1.20

I don't know why this is, but it's there and we have to live with it. So in effect, the addition of customization and mod are closer to 40%.

Third: Your numbers for Warrior w/o Strength bonus and Warrior w/ Strength bonus are identical. I assume this is a copy/paste error, and from what I can tell both sets are based on a Warrior w/ 10 Strength. Even so, as I've stated before it must be realized that a Warrior only includes the Strength bonus when using attack skills, not on normal swings. In most cases this usually equates to somewhere between 40-90% of the hits depending on the build.

Fourth: Your slams against Assassin spike damage using skills combos are without any proven merit. You have shown no evidence to support your claims.


...Dagger spike damage output is inferior to what you can achieve with Warrior weapons...

...is usually heavily conditional...

...most Assassin spikes are worse than warrior/ranger spikes because they take longer and are totally destroyed by blocks.

You have no numbers to support that Dagger spike damage is inferior. Attacks by all classes are conditions; there are counters to nearly every attack in the game. Assassin spike damage seems to me no more conditional than Warrior damage unless you have some proof you'd like to share. Blocks/evades affect Warriors and Rangers similar to Assassins -- no damage taken -- so there doesn't seem to be any merit to this claim either. And once again, you give no evidence showing that Assassin spikes take longer than any other damage class.

Fifth: Many of your "conclusions" are baseless.


Dagger DPS for an Assassin primary is pretty bad compared to warriors.

An Assassin using an optimum dagger damage build as stated by shaktiboi (13 CS, 12 DM) and Critical Eye vs. a Warrior using hammer, axe, or sword is less. Your "pretty bad" is a bit misleading -- without the strength bonus (for reasons I stated above) and using your suggested maximum weapon skill numbers you end up with the following:

Dagger: 21 DPS
Hammer: 25 DPS
Axe: 23 DPS
Sword: 22 DPS

Hardly the "pretty bad" you suggest.



...because rangers are heavily dependant on preparations for damage (and even then, they aren't that great).

Actually most rangers depend more heavily on skills along with the preparations for damage, which by using they gain significant DPS gains over other classes. Reference the long standing success of Ranger spike teams for details. Or for and easier example, a Ranger who constantly spams Barrage (easy to do) along with an Elementalist buff of one of the "Conjure" skills adds a noteworthy ~6 DPS. Combine this with other common buffs like a RtW spirit or the Elementalist's "Conjure" skills and you easily see Rangers with a ~15 bonus DPS.



Players considering an A/W build that does *not* use Dagger weapons should ask themselves whether giving up high physical AL (from Warrior armor and Shield) is worth the access to lower weapon DPS and spike

Completely wrong. All things equal (customizations, inherent mods) an Assassin using Hammer/Axe/Sword can have a higher DPS than a Warrior using the same. Even when you use the flawed Strength based numbers you have provided the difference is very small.



Players considering an A/Ra build should stop considering an A/Ra and go roll a Ra/A

Why? There seem to be good reasons both for and against, and you provide none.



Players who are concerned about spike damage should run damage analysis on their spike vs Eviscerate+executioners

I'll give you credit, this is definitely needed. But it is no different then the similar suggestion by shaktiboi that a spike damage comparison needs done.

While I enjoy reading alternate ideas and interpretations, I hate to read blatant falsehoods and misguiding statements. You have a couple valid ideas that could/should be taken into account, and many that should be explained before they're given a second thought.

arredondo
10-04-2006, 01:01
One bit of useful info that I put into my DPS Assassin thread is that it appears Critical hits are closely connected to your weapon's Attribute points. We can only use 1.4142 as a multiplier of a weapon's max damage if trying to find the Critical damage when its attribute is L12. If you have L16 stats, you need to add an additional 14%, or multiply another 1.14. I checked all three Warrior weapons on this (results in my thread) and used an additional weak sword with damage stats as close to the Dagger as possible to figure out Assassin critical damage (37.82 at L16).

shaktiboi
10-04-2006, 17:23
One bit of useful info that I put into my DPS Assassin thread is that it appears Critical hits are closely connected to your weapon's Attribute points. We can only use 1.4142 as a multiplier of a weapon's max damage if trying to find the Critical damage when its attribute is L12. If you have L16 stats, you need to add an additional 14%, or multiply another 1.14. I checked all three Warrior weapons on this (results in my thread) and used an additional weak sword with damage stats as close to the Dagger as possible to figure out Assassin critical damage (37.82 at L16).

Perhaps I can figure out what you're saying by looking at your Ultimate DPS Assassin thread, but based on your statement here...

The 1.4142 is a factor that equates to the -20 AL GSM of critical damage. Nothing more.

Remember, all that differentiates a crit from a normal hit are two things:


The weapon "roll" is the highest number of your weapon's listed damage range. You don't factor in other weapon bonuses here yet. If it's an axe weapon, for example, the number you "roll" on a crit is always 26.
The calculated weapon damage for that critical hit includes a GSM value of 1.4142 (which is equivalent to -20 AL). Remember, this is applied in the GSM portion of SonOfRah's damage formula.


These are the only two factors that make a critical hit any different from a regular hit. The only effect that a weapon's relevant Mastery attribute has on crits is the increased percent chance to crit.

Now that said, the relevant Mastery attribute *does* indeed affect the total damage. Masteries higher than 12 ranks do indeed cause more damage across the board, not just on crits. But the extra damage from Masteries is factored in using the Baseline portion of the total damage equation.

It's very important to figure out where in the total damage equation the various bits come into play. Applying the inherent weapon bonuses in the wrong place, for example, or in the wrong order (they stack in order of n x 1.15 x 1.20 as Zampani points out) can sigificantly change your calculated value.

arredondo
10-04-2006, 17:35
Remember, all that differentiates a crit from a normal hit are two things:

The weapon "roll" is the highest number of your weapon's listed damage range. You don't factor in other weapon bonuses here yet. If it's an axe weapon, for example, the number you "roll" on a crit is always 26.
The calculated weapon damage for that critical hit includes a GSM value of 1.4142 (which is equivalent to -20 AL). Remember, this is applied in the GSM portion of SonOfRah's damage formula.

Hmmm, I'm using Wild Blow which has no bonus weapon damage. Strictly criticals. I mean an L16 axe strike without a Critical can't go above the weapon's max damage can it (bonuses excluded)? I dunno, so I'm asking. If it can, then I understand. If not, then the bonus damage would be applied to the critical, not the baseline right?

The equations for the Critical damage of an L16 Dagger has been incorrect without this consideration I think. For instance, use your current method to calculate an Axe's L16 Crit with both mods on (+38%). Does it match my answer (which I know is correct from tests)?:

Weapon listed max damage x 1.4142 x 1.38 x 1.14

If your answer differs it's because somewhere that +14% isn't being factored in. At L16, this equation produces the correct answer for a critical on the four weapons I tested.

arredondo
10-04-2006, 20:28
OK, I've got the answer. You're correct that the baseline damage includes the Att. level adjustment. It turns out that at L16 Dagger Mastery, the weapon's damage range changes from 7-17 to 8.04-19.53. This allows one to then apply the 1.38 for the mods and 1.4142 for critical chance to get the true damage for achieving crits. For an L16 Dagger Mastery build, the Critical damage is 38.11 I believe, or close to what I posted last. The value is 27.62 without the mods.

This also means our average damage for normal hits must change as well. We've used 12.0 as the middle Dagger damage value all this time... this works for DM L12 only. With no mods at higher levels it becomes:

- 13.79 at L16
- 13.32 at L15
- 12.86 at L14
- 12.43 at L13

By making these two adjustments, Dagger damage calculations increase a bit more than was thought before.

shaktiboi
10-04-2006, 21:05
Hmmm, I'm using Wild Blow which has no bonus weapon damage. Strictly criticals. I mean an L16 axe strike without a Critical can't go above the weapon's max damage can it (bonuses excluded)? I dunno, so I'm asking. If it can, then I understand. If not, then the bonus damage would be applied to the critical, not the baseline right?

Yes, an L16 axe strike without a critical can go above the weapon's listed max damage. Perhaps you're forgetting the effect of a higher than 12 weapon mastery on the baseline value in the total damage equation?


f you have L16 stats, you need to add an additional 14%, or multiply another 1.14.

Yes, sorta, but not exactly. The L16 stats cannot be applied as a straight 1.14 on top of things. You need to apply the extra damage (of 16 ranks versus 12 ranks) in the baseline portion of the total damage equation. This changes the Armor Modifer used in the equation in a way that equates to your "missing" 14%.

Armor Modifier = ( 2^{ [ (Baseline) - [(EAL) + GSM] ] / 40 } )

Armor Modifier at 12 ranks = 1.0 ( 2^{ [ (60) - [(60) + 0] ] / 40 } )
Armor Modifier at 16 ranks = 1.1486 ( 2^{ [ (68) - [(60) + 0] ] / 40 } )

The reason I'm making a big deal about applying those extra 4 ranks to the baseline instead of just saying, "sure go ahead and use that 1.14 modifier for rank 16" is because there are several other factors that affect the total armor modifier. Namely, the modifiers that go into the EAL (armor buffs/debuffs/AP/AP%) and into the GSM (usually the -20 for crit damage, but other things can go here too).

--------------

So Let's break down a single critical hit with an axe, and also one hit based off of a "roll" of 27 for the base damage value of the axe. (max - 1). This is the train of thought you should use when calculating your actual damage...

I'll assume you're beating on the AL 60 target dummy. Right?

You've got an Axe with the +15% and +20 damage mods.

You've got 16 ranks in Axe Mastery, which is affecting both your baseline value and your crit percent chance.

Let's break it down from the top. We're not looking at DPS here, just the value of a single critical hit against an AL 60 target dummy. We're also not looking at just the weapon-specific factors, but the total damage equation, which looking at your baseline versus the EAL of the target.

16 Axe Mastery = 68 Baseline (([75/15]*16) – (3*[16 – 12]) = 68)
Total damage enhancement from axe's inherent damage mods = 38% (1.15 * 1.20)
Axe Damage Range: 6-28
"Roll" for a crit: 28
EAL = 60 (no buffs, no debuffs, no AP or AP% in effect)
GSM = -20


Plug this into the Damage Formula (Deford's modified SonOfRah):

Received Damage = (Victim’s Damage Enhancement) x [[(Attacker’s Damage Enhancement) x (Base Damage) x (Armor Modifier)] + (Bonus Damage)]

Victim's Damage Enhancement = 1 (no enhancement)
Attacker's Damage Enhancement = 1.38
Base Damage = 28
Armor Modifier = .8122 ( 2^{ [ (Baseline) - [(EAL) + GSM] ] / 40 } )
Bonus Damage = 0

Received Damage = 62.8 (1 x [[1.38 x 28 x 1.6245] + 0])

So, when you use Wild Blow against an AL 60 target dummy, you should crit for exactly 62 or 63 (depending on how the game rounds decimal damage values) damage with a +15% and customized axe.

Now, let's see what a hit with a non-critical "roll" of 27 should hit for. Remember, since it's a non-crit we're also going to remove the GSM value of -20 from the Armor Modifier portion of the equation.

Base Damage = 27
Armor Modifier = 1.1486 ( 2^{ [ (Baseline) - (EAL) + GSM ] / 40 } )

Received Damage = 42.7 (1 x [[1.38 x 27 x 1.1486] + 0])

So, when you use Wild Blow against an AL 60 target dummy, your highest non-crit damage should hit for 42 or 43 (depending on how the game rounds decimal damage values) damage with a +15% and customized axe.

shaktiboi
10-04-2006, 21:08
OK, I've got the answer. You're correct that the baseline damage includes the Att. level adjustment. It turns out that at L16 Dagger Mastery, the weapon's damage range changes from 7-17 to 8.04-19.53. This allows one to then apply the 1.38 for the mods and 1.4142 for critical chance to get the true damage for achieving crits. For an L16 Dagger Mastery build, the Critical damage is 38.11 I believe, or close to what I posted last. The value is 27.62 without the mods.

This also means our average damage for normal hits must change as well. We've used 12.0 as the middle Dagger damage value all this time... this works for DM L12 only. With no mods at higher levels it becomes:

- 13.79 at L16
- 13.32 at L15
- 12.86 at L14
- 12.43 at L13

By making these two adjustments, Dagger damage calculations increase a bit more than was thought before.


A weapon's listed damage range never changes. Never.

All the listed damage range provides in the total damage equation is a "roll" value that is used for the Base Damage portion of the damage equation. No matter what, that Base Damage number will always be an integer value from 7 to 17 for a dagger hit. Never anything different. Ever.

See my previous post for an explanation of where your extra damage from ranks 13-16 is really coming into play.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think you're attempting to oversimplify the total damage equation in ways that are yeilding too-high results.

arredondo
10-04-2006, 22:20
No, not oversimplifying and my results are no longer too high. We're on the same page it seems with this issue now. I also got 63 damage for Wild Blow with the adjusted Axe in-game and with my version of the calculations on paper. Either I missed it or it hasn't been used, but I hadn't seen the bonus damage modifier for >L12 weapon stats and that's what I've been missing all of this time. SonOfRah's article doesn't clearly express this I don't think unless I looked in the wrong spot. At L16, if the 14.86 modifier isn't used the estimates are too low for figuring critical and (average) non-critical damage. For each rank 13-15, a different modifier must be used.

I now understand that weapon base damage doesn't change (thanks for pointing that out), but regardless of where I've placed x1.14 so far, the answer has been correct. The important thing is I must include it.

shaktiboi
10-04-2006, 22:31
No, not oversimplifying and my results are no longer too high. We're on the same page it seems with this issue now. I also got 63 damage for Wild Blow with the adjusted Axe in-game and with my version of the calculations on paper. Either I missed it or it hasn't been used, but I hadn't seen the bonus damage modifier for >L12 weapon stats and that's what I've been missing all of this time. SonOfRah's article doesn't clearly express this I don't think unless I looked in the wrong spot. At L16, if the 14.86 modifier isn't used the estimates are too low for figuring critical and (average) non-critical damage. For each rank 13-15, a different modifier must be used.

I now understand that weapon base damage doesn't change (thanks for pointing that out), but regardless of where I've placed x1.14 so far, the answer has been correct. The important thing is I must include it.


Okay let me try explaining it this way. Your 1.14 modifier is coming from the Armor Modifier portion of the damage equation. At rank 16 mastery, with no mods in the EAL portion of the Armor modifer, and no mods in the GSM portion of the armor modifier, then yes, the Armor Modifier comes out to 1.14.

However, if you start throwing AP% (from strength, for example) or armor buffs or debuffs or other changes to the target's AL into the mix, then your 1.14 becomes something else. That's why I'm stressing not to just assume that 16 ranks in mastery = a simple 1.14 modifier.

IWantMORIDIN
10-04-2006, 23:07
Second: You have a very good and valid point on including the customization and inherent weapon dmg mods -- most players will be using a weapon with a mod, and many will be using a weapon that is customized (particularly those in PvP). This extra damage does separate the DPS somewhat between weapons; effectively a 5 DPS difference between a Axe and Dagger wielded by an Assassin with this change. But your calculations are off. Customization and inherent mods are "stacking":

Total Dmg = Base Dmg * 1.15 * 1.20

I don't know why this is, but it's there and we have to live with it. So in effect, the addition of customization and mod are closer to 40%.

I already included the +38% damage- its at the top where it says +38% from customization and 15^50.


Third: Your numbers for Warrior w/o Strength bonus and Warrior w/ Strength bonus are identical. I assume this is a copy/paste error, and from what I can tell both sets are based on a Warrior w/ 10 Strength. Even so, as I've stated before it must be realized that a Warrior only includes the Strength bonus when using attack skills, not on normal swings. In most cases this usually equates to somewhere between 40-90% of the hits depending on the build.

I did that on purpose, and you already stated the reason. A warrior auto attacking a 60 AL dummy never gets a bonus from strength- so someone with 0 strength or 5,000 strength does the same damage. None of my calculations included skills.

I would agree that the rest of my post is pretty bad. I would edit it, but I no longer can.

arredondo
10-04-2006, 23:37
Okay let me try explaining it this way...

OK, I got it. We don't want +14% added to everything in the calculations. Apply it as early as possible (to the base damage for normal hits at L16, to max weapon damage for criticals at L16). Thanks.

Bilateralrope
11-04-2006, 09:25
Where Dagger Mastery does not work like the other weapon masteries is that it also affects the overall speed of your Daggers. The base Dagger speed is the same as swords and axes (1.33 seconds per attack). But for each rank of Dagger Mastery, you also get a 2% chance to strike twice in one attack. If you have 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery, you have a 24% chance on any given attack to strike twice. On average, then, every 100 attacks will yield 124 strikes, which equates to a 24% increase in overall weapon speed.

So a simple formula for determining your effective dagger speed is this:

Dagger Speed = 1.33 / [1 + (Attribute x .02)]

Some examples:

* 9 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.13 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.18)
* 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.07 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.24)
* 16 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.00 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.32)


Why is knowing the speed of your dagger important? One obvious reason is that it affects your overall DPS, with faster speeds meaning more DPS than slower speeds. A less obvious reason is that it also affects the rate at which you regen energy from your Critical Strikes attribute and from your Critical Eye skill. Which leads us to the next section…

So a higher dagger mastery also means a higher rate of damage from Empathy and SS ?

My mesmer is pleased

Also, how would high dagger mastery effect Illusionary weaponary ?

arredondo
11-04-2006, 10:07
IW should work the same as long as you use daggers.

L16 Illu, L12 DM (24% attack speed buff)= 41 DPS
L12 Illu, L16 DM (32% attack speed buff)= 34 DPS

Rustin
11-04-2006, 14:43
I dont know if somebody already pointed this out, but a warriar's strength attribute only applies to attack skills, and not normal attacks. So points in strength would only increase one's dps if they were using attack skills.

shaktiboi
11-04-2006, 16:13
I dont know if somebody already pointed this out, but a warriar's strength attribute only applies to attack skills, and not normal attacks. So points in strength would only increase one's dps if they were using attack skills.

It has been pointed out, but thanks for the effort to make constructive feedback. I will address this fact in version 3 of the FAQ.

arredondo
11-04-2006, 19:04
One thing I'm not clear on.... does the game limit the net effect of attack speed buffs on a player? I thought I read somewhere that you can not swing faster than one attack per second. I mean, technically speaking isn't Frenzy/Flurry/T.Fury on a Sword, Axe or Dagger supposed to give you 1.12 attacks per second instead of 1.00 per second?

shaktiboi
11-04-2006, 23:00
One thing I'm not clear on.... does the game limit the net effect of attack speed buffs on a player? I thought I read somewhere that you can not swing faster than one attack per second. I mean, technically speaking isn't Frenzy/Flurry/T.Fury on a Sword, Axe or Dagger supposed to give you 1.12 attacks per second instead of 1.00 per second?

Yes there is a limit on actual swing speed but its 0.85 or 0.87 or something like that. Daggers are always 1.33 just like swords and axes. If you put Frenzy on while swinging a dagger/axe/sword, your swing speed indeed becomes faster than 1.00 seconds.

Remember that the effective swing speed confered by Dagger Mastery's chance to double-strike is not a real value limited by the system. You start with the actual value (1.33, or 0.87, or what-have-you) and then you factor in the effect of Dagger Mastery to get to the effective speed.

shaktiboi
11-04-2006, 23:01
This version of the Dagger FAQ is now dead. Kill it, chop it up, bury it in the Shiverpeaks, and forget about it.

Instead, please see version 3 of this FAQ at http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=393624

Meanwhile, I'll work on getting a forum moderator to un-sticky this one and sticky version 3 instead.