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View Full Version : Zealous vs all other mods



Longasc
07-04-2006, 13:51
Assassins are energy hungry when they start their combo chain.

They can churn through 20-30 energy within seconds, having a pool of 25 energy that can be extended up to 32 (+7 energy armor, FPE data).


Now they have various skills to regain energy quickly and their primary attribute Critical Strikes gives them 1,2 or 3 Energy back per critical hit (3 at 13 Critical Strikes). Critical Eye adds +1 energy to that.


But there is also the Zealous Dagger mod, which gives -1 reg but +1 per hit.

The energy gain outweighs -1 degen by far, especially if you take in account that dual attacks strike twice. Also think of Death Blossom in PvE, this could yield you more energy than the whole attack cost you!



So why would one NOT want to use a zealous dagger upgrade?


To add a 10% Sundering Mod (if they exist at all)? I do not really think so, as Sundering does add minimum extra damage with a 10% chance. 7-17 base damage does not make this advantage too sexy.

Vs an AL 60 target you do at 16 Dagger Mastery (115% damage), +15%>50 and customized (20%) this damage:

25.5 (25 or 26, does it round up?) without sundering, 28.29 with Sundering.
(2-3 more damage max!)

Vs AL 80:
18.03 vs 20.71

Vs AL 100:
12.75 vs 15.16


Using an elemental (Fiery, Shocking, Icy, Ebon) upgrade would boost the damage vs warrior mobs, assume they have the usual x+20phys armor:

Compare to 80 AL vs 100 AL, 5-6 more damage. If the target mob is weak (PvE only) vs a special kind of damage, e.g. fire, you can expect better results.

Also, some skills like Blinding Flash and Thunderclap require lightning damage, while Mark of Rodgort requires Fire. Similar, Mark of Pain and the Necro Order spells require physical damage.


But how do assassins deal damage? Their combos are their killers, and while the dagger base damage factors in, can some 6 more damage vs specific mobs really outweigh the energy generation of zealous?

Feel free to add your thoughts.
I already think we must pity PvE Assassins that do not have the luck to get a zealous drop, prices will for sure be high. PvP players will for sure want to unlock zealous as one of their first skills/upgrades for the assassin class.

arredondo
07-04-2006, 16:56
Yep, it was the first thing I unlocked for the class at BWE. At L16 Dagger Mastery, the loss of -1 pip of energy (-.3333) is offset by the +3 pips you get in return as long as you are attacking (net +.6666 total gain). Once you stop attacking, switch to another set of non-Zealous daggers for +4 pip energy regen once again.

Xunlai Agent
07-04-2006, 17:01
Like Arredondo I unlocked this first and combined with an IAS. It is amazingly good and when you combine it with high Critical Strikes and Critical Eye all your energy needs should be covered. It also frees the Assassin a bit vs EDenial...

shaktiboi
07-04-2006, 17:09
One way to look at the energy regen of a zealous weapon is this:

-1 pip = -0.33 energy per second regen rate.

At the optimum 16/13 stats of 16 Dagger Mastery and 13 Critical Strikes, your dagger speed is effectively 1.00 second per attack.

If you connect with every attack, your zealous mod is netting you 1 energy per second at that weapon speed. Subtract the -0.33 and you're left with 0.67 energy net gain per second. That's equal to 2 more pips on your energy bar.

Of course, you won't connect with *every* attack, so your actuall regen with a zealous mod will be less than 2 pips during battle, but it will certainly fall somewhere between 1 and 2 pips, on average (unless you're blinded or somesuch).

So it's a no-brainer that Assassins *will* want a zealous mod if they can get their greedy little death-dealing hands on one.

Bobross
07-04-2006, 18:05
Like Arredondo I unlocked this first and combined with an IAS. It is amazingly good and when you combine it with high Critical Strikes and Critical Eye all your energy needs should be covered. It also frees the Assassin a bit vs EDenial...

I think Assassins are already one of the most resistant classes to e-denial...aside from most warriors. This helps a bit more, but I really don't think mesmers will be trying too hard to drain an assassin...especially when one empathy will easily ruin our day.

ArichValtrahn
07-04-2006, 18:08
Is Vampiric an option for Assassins? Seems like that would be a good option, if its available.

Longasc
07-04-2006, 19:34
I forget about vampiric.

I will just assume it is 3/-1 like Swords and Axes.


Unfortunately I am too lazy to do the math now, but I cannot help, zealous again still looks sooo much sexier!!!

protozero
08-04-2006, 00:25
i think it will be 5/-1 dont forget these are 2 handed weaps

Bows 2handed :5/-1 vamp

hammers 2 handed : 5/-1 vamp

sword&axe 1 handed :3/-1 vamp

Syes
08-04-2006, 01:19
It's 3/-1.

And it's still fantastic. I had an A/R with Gold 3/-1 Vampiric Dragon Scythes of Dagger Mastery(oh, how I miss you) running Beastial Fury and Locusts Fury. It was absolutely fantastic, best fun I'd had in ages in this game. And attacking that fast, I didn't need Zealous, as I was getting enough crits anyway.

GrimShade
08-04-2006, 01:41
I was thinking along the same lines. I know I will have pleanty of time to try out the girl before I find my Zelous daggers, but they are the ones I plan to use.

The way I look at it is, the majority of the time I will be expending energy will be when I run in to do a chain of attacks. This is when my energy demands are the greatest, and as such when I want the most energy coming in. Zelous is a perfect trade off since when I am not chaining the attacks I am happy to let it recharge slower. When I am chaining, I’ll be getting more than that 1 pip cost me.

I do wonder how bad it will be for an Assassin with Spirit shackles and Mind Wrack is. It may not be an issue.

halfthought
08-04-2006, 04:37
hey, I just thought of somthing, thing could finally make flurry useful

Reikai
08-04-2006, 06:07
assassin + empathy/Spiteful Spirit/Spirit Shackles = dead :D

Nanashi
08-04-2006, 06:19
The only other mod for a dagger I see being useful would be the vampric mod. During the FPE I managed to get four skills that only costed me 5 energy, so with Critical Strikes energy wasn't so much a problem. It was rare to get below 10 energy and even more so to be OOE; either the player would die or run up until their health was high enough at which point my energy was recharged. This was without the use of zealous modded daggers mind you so with the proper set up they aren't too energy hungry but the zealous mod is definetly recomended especially with energy denial mesmers. They were the bane of my ranger in pvp during some HoH runs.

Otherwise, the second set of daggers should be modded for vampiric. With the output of damage they do alone with just the daggers and high dagger mastery, they could regen health in no time.

Patccmoi
08-04-2006, 18:32
I think that Assassins, just like most warriors currently, will simply carry 1 Zealous + 1 Vampiric set, if you're on PvE char you can add 1 Elemental set (sometimes useful, it does remove 20 armor from most warriors currently)

If you go energy heavy and need to recharge your energy fast, Zealous is just extremely good. For energy intensive chains, assassins will definitely want a Zealous mod.

As for Vampiric, it DOES add a LOT of damage overall. It's +6 clean damage on your dual attacks. Against high armored targets like warriors, nothing beats a Vampiric mod, it usually adds more damage than a sundering does and sundering is just 10% chances. If you use an IAS stance, it's also a decent self-heal.

I don't know if the mod exists either (i know it does for bows), but Silencing (Daze duration + 33%) would definitely be useful too if you go for a Temple Strike build. Raising Daze duration to 9 sec is worth it. Just use it for your TS, then switch back to vampiric/zealous.

But Zealous will obviously be in the hands of assassins most of the time. You're fine with 3 pips of regen, and the rate at which you'll get your energy back with Critical Strikes + zealous is really nice

arredondo
08-04-2006, 20:47
Heh, I thought of Vampiric while I was in bed last night and added the option to my DPS Assassin thread. It will definitely be helpful to add armor ignoring damage to Dual Strike attacks as you mention, but it is even more amazing if you have it on double strike attacks since they can occur more frequently in battle (like the 52% DS possibility in my build).

MaximumSquid
08-04-2006, 21:45
I really like how zealous and leech daggers opperate on an assassin, but I plan to running an E/A with conjure Element.

That pretty well speaks for itself what mods i'm going to be using.

I'd recommend though that you take +5 armor for the dagger hilt.

scorche
09-04-2006, 06:05
Zealous definitely looks like one of the best upgrades, along with silencing(increases dazed duration) and vampiric.


Also think of Death Blossom in PvE, this could yield you more energy than the whole attack cost you!

Death Blossom:Dual Attack. Must follow an Off-hand Attack. If it hits Death blossom strikes for+15-35 damage against target foe and all adjacent foes take 15-35 damage.

This skill only states that adjacent foes take damage. not that you attack them like cyclone axe and crude swing do. So the energy gain from this skill is the same as any other dual attack skill

Longasc
09-04-2006, 13:06
Yeah, I was not sure about this. This is why I wrote "could".

I am not sure how Death Blossom works. Someone posted a screenshot where the extra damage of adjacent foes sometimes was 35+critical hit damage or less. They counted as ATTACKS, not a fixed adjacent foe damage like Mark of Pain does e.g..

I had no zealous dagger, pity me, otherwise I could have checked if you get energy from the "adjacent" hits, too. This is not impossible, we have already seen that they are handled as normal dagger attacks plus bonus.

Syes
09-04-2006, 16:15
Yeah, I was not sure about this. This is why I wrote "could".

I am not sure how Death Blossom works. Someone posted a screenshot where the extra damage of adjacent foes sometimes was 35+critical hit damage or less. They counted as ATTACKS, not a fixed adjacent foe damage like Mark of Pain does e.g..

I had no zealous dagger, pity me, otherwise I could have checked if you get energy from the "adjacent" hits, too. This is not impossible, we have already seen that they are handled as normal dagger attacks plus bonus.
You mean this screenie ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/myodato/DeathBlossom1.jpg

This shows a double striking Death Blossom on the main target plus 3 adjacent targets. You may notice that I'm using 3/-1 Vampiric daggers, which only activate twice, i.e only the main target is attacked, the damage to adjacent targets is just damage, NOT attacks, and indeed works just like Mark of Pain, even to the extent that if the first of the two double strikes kills your main target, you lose the second AoE. :(

You'll also notice from the +2 energy that one of the strikes was a critical, the other wasn't. (And that I had between 8 and 12 CS and didn't have Critical Eye running.)

Longasc
09-04-2006, 18:18
Exactly, this was the screenie.

Seems as if you would have gotten only 2 energy then.

arredondo
09-04-2006, 20:41
You mean this screenie ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/myodato/DeathBlossom1.jpg

This shows a double striking Death Blossom on the main target plus 3 adjacent targets. You may notice that I'm using 3/-1 Vampiric daggers, which only activate twice, i.e only the main target is attacked, the damage to adjacent targets is just damage, NOT attacks, and indeed works just like Mark of Pain, even to the extent that if the first of the two double strikes kills your main target, you lose the second AoE. :(

You'll also notice from the +2 energy that one of the strikes was a critical, the other wasn't. (And that I had between 8 and 12 CS and didn't have Critical Eye running.)

Thanks for confirming the number of enemies there (tough to tell). So it's three enemies, all hit twice by Death Blossom's AoE, and you got one extra double strike to come out or two? Can you explain what the damage numbers are for if you can? I'll start:

Enemy #1: -38, -3, -38, -3... any double strikes on him? If so, which numbers? Was the critical on him or one of the others?
Enemy #2: etc.
Enemy #3: etc.

The -10 and -47 are the ones I am trying to label the most. Thanks!

Bravo
10-04-2006, 00:23
-38, -38 death blossom damages.
-52 (critical), -3, -47, -3 damages against target foe.
-10 unaccounted for? (Likely a follow on attack after the dual attack - but why no vampiric, did the screen shot take place before the vampiric resolved?)

arredondo
10-04-2006, 01:34
I guess I meant literally assign the damages to each enemy 1,2 and 3.

Syes
10-04-2006, 20:18
Four enemies total.

Main target: -52 (-3 vampiric, +2 energy for crit), -47 (-3 vampiric)
- Note how small the extra damage from a critical is compared to the overall damage of +damage attack skill. This is Death Blossom landing as a double strike on my target.

Adjacent 1: -38, -38
Adjacent 2: -38, -38
Adjacent 3: -38, -38

The double strike on the main target activates the to adjacent damage to each target twice (one for each double strike that lands).

-10 = pet damage. If you look very closely you can just about make out a Black Moa wing, who insisted on doing his bit, even if it didn't really match up to Death Blossom :p

arredondo
10-04-2006, 20:56
OK, then we're back at square one. :tongue:

What you have there are Dual Attacks, not double strikes. Eight total hits on four enemies is a result of the Dual Attack connecting twice on the target (as it is designed to do) and then AoE the Dual Attack's skill damage to everyone else (38+38). Dual Attacks are skills that hit twice. Double strikes are bonuses to attacking (I believe it still may not trigger on Dual Attacks).

If it were a double strike, the main target would be hit by a minimum -52,-3, -47,-3, -20. Maybe even 52,-3, -47,-3, -20,-3, -20,-3.

The last two values are speculative because I just plugged in an avg 20 damage basic hit as well as another Vamp bonus, but at least the basic extra melee hit would trigger. So we don't know definitively that double strikes work off of skills.

shaktiboi
10-04-2006, 21:36
OK, then we're back at square one. :tongue:

What you have there are Dual Attacks, not double strikes. Eight total hits on four enemies is a result of the Dual Attack connecting twice on the target (as it is designed to do) and then AoE the Dual Attack's skill damage to everyone else (38+38). Dual Attacks are skills that hit twice. Double strikes are bonuses to attacking (I believe it still may not trigger on Dual Attacks).

If it were a double strike, the main target would be hit by a minimum -52,-3, -47,-3, -20. Maybe even 52,-3, -47,-3, -20,-3, -20,-3.

The last two values are speculative because I just plugged in an avg 20 damage basic hit as well as another Vamp bonus, but at least the basic extra melee hit would trigger. So we don't know definitively that double strikes work off of skills.

Yep, it seems like there is still no definitive answer to whether non-dual attack can actually fire off twice from a double strike. I'm guessing we won't know for sure until after April 27 and some folks can spend time firing off non-duals at target dummies.

arredondo
10-04-2006, 22:32
I'll modify my DPS build to include Repeating Strikes under a 52% chance to double strike the wooden dummy. If that doesn't get it to work, I doubt anything can.