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arredondo
08-04-2006, 07:30
The response to my "Ultimate Critical Assasin" build was pretty solid:

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=392929

In it I tried to make the most out of the Assassin's awesome critical hit rate, reaching up to a 73% chance of hitting a crit. Here, I am going to try to do the same for another special ability in the Assassin's skill set: double strikes.

With double strikes, you can hit an enemy twice with one melee attack attempt. Unfortunately, this does not seem to include attacks from skills at this time (i.e. Fox Fang will never DS for you). So with that in mind, I want to use double strikes to try to maximize the damage-per-second (DPS) possible from basic Knife melee attacks. I combined this idea with what I think is a viable build that accomplishes a few other things as well.

The end results of what I came up with look so good (in theory), that again I ask that if anyone comes up with an Assassin primary build with higher melee DPS than this one, please share it. :smiley:

=========================================
Ultimate DPS Assassin

Dagger Mastery: 16
Deadly Arts: 11
Critical Strikes: 8

Black Mantis Thrust: -21 damage (Lead), Cripples a Hexed foe for 17s
Jungle Strike: -21 damage (Off-Hand), an additional -33 on a Crippled foe
Twisted Fangs: -12 damage (Dual Attack), Bleeds and Deep Wounds for 21s

Shadowy Burden or Rez: Hexes with a -25% speed snare for 8 seconds along with -20 AL (15s recharge)
Locusts' Fury {Elite}: An extra +20% chance to double strike for 25s (30s recharge)
Frenzy: +33% attack speed for 8s, but all incoming damage is doubled.

Critical Defenses: A 40% chance to block for 4 secs., it refreshes itself with every critical hit.
Shadow Refuge: Take -50% damage for four secs., then heal for 96 (8 sec. recharge).

100% +energy armor and Zealous mods until I can test it. I also have a +20% damage customization mod, and +15% damage mod when health is >50%.
=========================================

OK, we're almost set now, but let me point out one thing. Notice I have the Rez in as optional... I'll do that from now on since 12v12 has added another legit PvP option that doesn't require a Rez, along with the option of not having one in organized HA and GvG teams. Still, in RA and TA... ALWAYS BRING A REZ!

Back to the build, keep in mind a lot is just theory until I can actually play test it. The basic idea though is pretty straight forward however (assume a 60AL opponent). I have the basic BMT->JS->TF combo in there for its dependable meaty damage, but this is a build that should get a high DPS rate from spamming normal attacks as well. BTW, use Leaping Mantis Strike to Cripple a runner instead of BMT if you choose a Rez over the single Hex in the build.

My Critical Strike % rate is decent. I get an +8% chance at a crit (-33 damage with my mods) from my Critical Strikes line, and +21% chance from the Dagger Mastery bonuses for a +29% total chance. With L16 in Dagger Mastery, I get a +32% chance at hitting a double strike (+2% x16), making my 1.33 attack speed come down to the equivalent of making contact at least once every second on average.

Locusts' Fury is my elite, giving me an additional +20% chance at double striking with each attack. Together I now get a double strike from 52% of all my basic melee attempts. What was the equivalent of getting one hit every 1.01 second before, LF takes that down to one attack every 0.81 seconds.

So when I factor in my Crit rate and its damage, my adjusted attack speed, and all my mod bonuses, I am doing about 29 DPS from basic melee attacks. Compared to the fierce Warriors, that's pretty good for an Assassin with a couple of dinner knives for weapons. :laugh:

But we can squeeze out a little more in the quest for the highest DPS rates from melee attacks. Go into Frenzy stance's +33% speed increase and the attack rate zips up even higher. Now the build makes contact once every 0.48 seconds, which is just over two hits per second! That is basically the equivalent DPS of connecting a double strike every single time you try a basic melee attack. Too cool! So adding it all together, you are now dishing out 49 DPS to your unfortunate target (48.69).

But wait... there's more! With the Hex spell Shadowy Burden cast just before you go into melee spam mode, your enemy is -25% slower and also loses -20 AL for 8 seconds (15s recharge). This gives you a +25% damage increase for all of your melee attacks while everything is up and running (works with attack skills too, unlike double strikes). If my calculations for everything is correct, the final damage output from regular attacks is a staggering 61 DPS! :shocked:

So make the use of that 8 seconds before it settles back down a bit. Thankfully the recharge time is low on SB, so it won't be too uncommon for you to get that high. Keep in mind, that's the average DPS... you will sometimes spike even higher (or lower).

Some of you may be cringing right now about my use of Frenzy. What good is all this damage going out when weak Assassin armor is giving up 2x damage for 8 seconds coming in? That's where my last two skills come in. Shadow Refuge is a semi-spammable skill that cuts all damage in half for four seconds and then gives me +96 HP with my stats (recharges in 8s). Before BWE it was a 50% evade for four seconds, but this is better because it reduces the damage of un-evadable skills like Irrisitable Blow, and it also works against most caster damage too (unlike evades). So if Frenzy gives up 2x damage for 8 seconds, I take that penalty away with SR's half-damage ability. Whatever hurts me is repaired up to 96 HP.

Still I'm vulnerable for 2x damage during Frenzy's last four seconds until SR is ready again. With Assassin armor, you don't want to leave too many holes so I'm also bringing in Critical Defenses. With my stats, I block 40% of all melee and arrows coming in every four seconds, and it renews every time I hit a critical. I have a 29% chance of getting a crit, and my hit rate is now at about two per second. I get eight hits connecting during CD's active time, so I'll be getting comfortably 2-3 crits as long as I don't stop attacking. It doesn't totally remove the danger of getting hit under Frenzy, but it certainly helps a lot.

While under both Shadow Refuge and Critical Defenses, you have essentially reduced damage by 70% every other four seconds before you count the +96 HP bonus (melee and arrows... spell damage is -50%). With the four seconds that SR is off, you still are shaking off 40% of the melee and arrow damage on average. Degen, blood life steals, etc. are exempt from any of these adjustments unfortunately, but the +96 HP every eight seconds helps even in that area until you can get to your Monk or heal naturally.

Finally, I should address the energy needed to fuel this build. It takes 25E for the BMT combo, the elite costs 10E and so does Shadowy Burden. Crit defenses is 10E, but it stays on indefinitely as long as you connect your Crits, so only use it when you are trying to stay on target to save energy. Shadow Refuge is only 5E every 8 secs., but no amount is small if your mana is low. Frenzy is 5E for 8s as well.

I am getting +2E per Crit (29% chance), which means a max +1.2E a second with my setup (factor in double strikes and Frenzy). Also I have Zealous knives connecting for +2E every second (+1E x0.48) at my optimum attack speed. With +1E per second from natural regen, I'm getting +4.2E a second at max (or earning almost 13 pips) as long as Locusts' Fury and Frenzy are up and I'm hitting them. Even if it comes to 8-10 pips in reality, that's still pretty good. Cripple and -25% speed from SB will help keep my offense going however, so I'm not overly worried... yet.

If you can, run LF, SB and Frenzy on an enemy to get the max DPS going while simultaneously recharging your mana quickly. You need 25E at least to get the BMT combo to fully work, so have at least 20E in the bank before you pull the first trigger.

Since LF runs out in 25s, that's as good a time as any to use BMT since double strikes don't work with attack skills, but you have a lot of time to do it once beforeLF ends just to maximize a spike kill if he's at 40% health or less. If you do it after LF runs out, by the time that mini combo is done, your next LF is ready to be put back on (30s recharge).

Or, use up 25E early with the BMT combo first, then while he's still crippled you can then start using gained energy for LF first, followed by the snare of SB and then Frenzy him for your 61 DPS+ max energy regen. Again, I'll need to test to find the best strats.

This write-up took longer than I thought. Hopefully I haven't made any major mistakes, but I'll correct it and update the build if there are. I can eke out a bit more short term DPS if I raise CS up to 13 and SA down to 4, but it won't be worth it... Shadowy Burden would last too short for any long term benefits, and my HP bonus from SR is gutted. Still, it's an option for those who want to maximize their total damage and gain +3E per critical in the process instead of +2E.

In theory this DPS build can kill an enemy in 8-10 seconds from melee attacks alone. Add to that the spike damage of the BMT combo and this can potentially be one of the most dangerous Assassin builds possible in the game. :cool:

Input
08-04-2006, 08:31
wow.....this build is just....wow

this seems very powerful if played right.

nothing else to say.

the title of this thread is just self-explanatory.

wow.

arredondo
08-04-2006, 09:22
Yeah, I'm eager to test this puppy out. :grin:

However there is one error... the final BWE stats on Critical Defenses has it refreshing every six seconds instead of every four if I nail a Critical. That's great news because my setup gets a crit far too often for this skill to go to waste, and now there's more time allowed to get it to work.

Nanashi
08-04-2006, 11:39
The only thing I kind of question is Critical Defenses, unless if I'm mistaken, isn't this an elite skill? I thought I saw this being mentioned in the Assassin Elite skills list. It was pointed out that the really good thing about this was it recharged during each critical hit which could almost be spontanous.

So is CD an elite or was I just reading something from some other threat?

Kjentei
08-04-2006, 12:18
I like this better than the "Ultimate Critical Assassin", I don't know why. This seems very, very versatile. It's defensive enough in my opinion, and the extreme DPS makes up for the offense.

Certain enchantments would work wonders if cast on this assassin:
Vigorous Spirit [Unfortunately, Prophecies only]
Live Vicariously [Again, Prophecies only :sad: ]

But then theres the hexes that'll screw the build up:
Spirit Shackles [It will be in Factions, watch out!]
Empathy (2 attacks per second will see an Assassin within 7-8 seconds) [This'll also be in Factions]

Nanashi
08-04-2006, 12:47
It's safe to say all skills will be seen with Factions since I have found a roomer in the site's FAQ that we will, starting out in Cantha, be able to participate in the prophecies quest. They did say we could ascend our Assassins and Ritualists via the ascenson and if we do meet up in LA (my Factions char with your proph. char) it would make sense; LA is right before you meet the WM.

But back to the OP, it's a nice build and I think this'll be amongst the rest of them that I will try out. So far I'm leaning more towards the 7second killer one but who knows, we'll see. :)

Viri
08-04-2006, 13:15
First thing - Deadly Arts: 11 ? I think Shadow arts. I advice you to use Way of Perfection instead of critical defenses. From my experience its not really good. It usually ends after 4 seconds when it's needed for more (defensive stances, aegis, ward, guardian last longer than 4 seconds).

MaximumSquid
08-04-2006, 13:17
Locusts' Fury {Elite}: . . .
Frenzy: . . . Ow!

Comments:

This is vs. a single target though right?

I was fairly under the impression that Deadly Blossom / Mobius Strike was the highest DPS you could get on an Assassin. :sealed:

For NPC Ganking in 12v12 that's what I saw people running anyway.

Typo:

Critical Defenses lasts 6 seconds so you can give your post a buff!

Additional Leverage:

All you need know is a smiter to hand you a +10 to +12 strength of honor and you'll be a like the Hurricane!

http://www.thecolumnists.com/isaacs/isaacs18art1.jpg

Other Mods:

Stand Alone:
+3/-1 Life Leech Daggers

Team:
Orders
Winnowing
Guided Weapon

Gimmick:

Mark of Pain! :shocked:
Electric Daggers and Iron Mist!
Be a A/Mo and take Contemplation of Purity!

/all i got

Rastapopolous
08-04-2006, 13:55
Im a little confused... did you work the 1 second cast times for shadow refuge and critical defense into your math?

but even if you did not, pretty impressive on paper :)

JodoKast
08-04-2006, 14:59
=========================================
Ultimate DPS Assassin

Dagger Mastery: 16
Deadly Arts: 11
Critical Strikes: 8

Black Mantis Thrust: -21 damage (Lead), Cripples a Hexed foe for 17s
Jungle Strike: -21 damage (Off-Hand), an additional -33 on a Crippled foe
Twisted Fangs: -12 damage (Dual Attack), Bleeds and Deep Wounds for 21s

Shadowy Burden or Rez: Hexes with a -25% speed snare for 8 seconds along with -20 AL (15s recharge)
Locusts' Fury {Elite}: An extra +20% chance to double strike for 25s (30s recharge)
Frenzy: +33% attack speed for 8s, but all incoming damage is doubled.

Critical Defenses: A 40% chance to block for 4 secs., it refreshes itself with every critical hit.
Shadow Refuge: Take -50% damage for four secs., then heal for 96 (8 sec. recharge).

100% +energy armor and Zealous mods until I can test it. I also have a +20% damage customization mod, and +15% damage mod when health is >50%.
=========================================


Unless i missed something, how will you apply the conditions for your dagger combo chain without an hex as an opener ? You included one but only as optional.

shaktiboi
08-04-2006, 16:32
The response to my "Ultimate Critical Assasin" build was pretty solid:

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=392929

In it I tried to make the most out of the Assassin's awesome critical hit rate, reaching up to a 73% chance of hitting a crit. Here, I am going to try to do the same for another special ability in the Assassin's skill set: double strikes.

With double strikes, you can hit an enemy twice with one melee attack attempt. Unfortunately, this does not seem to include attacks from skills at this time (i.e. Fox Fang will never DS for you). So with that in mind, I want to use double strikes to try to maximize the damage-per-second (DPS) possible from basic Knife melee attacks. I combined this idea with what I think is a viable build that accomplishes a few other things as well.

The end results of what I came up with look so good (in theory), that again I ask that if anyone comes up with an Assassin primary build with higher melee DPS than this one, please share it. :smiley:

=========================================
Ultimate DPS Assassin

Dagger Mastery: 16
Deadly Arts: 11
Critical Strikes: 8

Black Mantis Thrust: -21 damage (Lead), Cripples a Hexed foe for 17s
Jungle Strike: -21 damage (Off-Hand), an additional -33 on a Crippled foe
Twisted Fangs: -12 damage (Dual Attack), Bleeds and Deep Wounds for 21s

Shadowy Burden or Rez: Hexes with a -25% speed snare for 8 seconds along with -20 AL (15s recharge)
Locusts' Fury {Elite}: An extra +20% chance to double strike for 25s (30s recharge)
Frenzy: +33% attack speed for 8s, but all incoming damage is doubled.

Critical Defenses: A 40% chance to block for 4 secs., it refreshes itself with every critical hit.
Shadow Refuge: Take -50% damage for four secs., then heal for 96 (8 sec. recharge).

100% +energy armor and Zealous mods until I can test it. I also have a +20% damage customization mod, and +15% damage mod when health is >50%.
=========================================

OK, we're almost set now, but let me point out one thing. Notice I have the Rez in as optional... I'll do that from now on since 12v12 has added another legit PvP option that doesn't require a Rez, along with the option of not having one in organized HA and GvG teams. Still, in RA and TA... ALWAYS BRING A REZ!

Back to the build, keep in mind a lot is just theory until I can actually play test it. The basic idea though is pretty straight forward however (assume a 60AL opponent). I have the basic BMT->JS->TF combo in there for its dependable meaty damage, but this is a build that should get a high DPS rate from spamming normal attacks as well. BTW, use Leaping Mantis Strike to Cripple a runner instead of BMT if you choose a Rez over the single Hex in the build.

My Critical Strike % rate is decent. I get an +8% chance at a crit (-33 damage with my mods) from my Critical Strikes line, and +21% chance from the Dagger Mastery bonuses for a +29% total chance. With L16 in Dagger Mastery, I get a +32% chance at hitting a double strike (+2% x16), making my 1.33 attack speed come down to the equivalent of making contact at least once every second on average.

Locusts' Fury is my elite, giving me an additional +20% chance at double striking with each attack. Together I now get a double strike from 52% of all my basic melee attempts. What was the equivalent of getting one hit every 1.01 second before, LF takes that down to one attack every 0.81 seconds.

So when I factor in my Crit rate and its damage, my adjusted attack speed, and all my mod bonuses, I am doing about 29 DPS from basic melee attacks. Compared to the fierce Warriors, that's pretty good for an Assassin with a couple of dinner knives for weapons. :laugh:

But we can squeeze out a little more in the quest for the highest DPS rates from melee attacks. Go into Frenzy stance's +33% speed increase and the attack rate zips up even higher. Now the build makes contact once every 0.48 seconds, which is just over two hits per second! That is basically the equivalent DPS of connecting a double strike every single time you try a basic melee attack. Too cool! So adding it all together, you are now dishing out 49 DPS to your unfortunate target (48.69).

But wait... there's more! With the Hex spell Shadowy Burden cast just before you go into melee spam mode, your enemy is -25% slower and also loses -20 AL for 8 seconds (15s recharge). This gives you a +25% damage increase for all of your melee attacks while everything is up and running (works with attack skills too, unlike double strikes). If my calculations for everything is correct, the final damage output from regular attacks is a staggering 61 DPS! :shocked:

So make the use of that 8 seconds before it settles back down a bit. Thankfully the recharge time is low on SB, so it won't be too uncommon for you to get that high. Keep in mind, that's the average DPS... you will sometimes spike even higher (or lower).

Some of you may be cringing right now about my use of Frenzy. What good is all this damage going out when weak Assassin armor is giving up 2x damage for 8 seconds coming in? That's where my last two skills come in. Shadow Refuge is a semi-spammable skill that cuts all damage in half for four seconds and then gives me +96 HP with my stats (recharges in 8s). Before BWE it was a 50% evade for four seconds, but this is better because it reduces the damage of un-evadable skills like Irrisitable Blow, and it also works against most caster damage too (unlike evades). So if Frenzy gives up 2x damage for 8 seconds, I take that penalty away with SR's half-damage ability. Whatever hurts me is repaired up to 96 HP.

Still I'm vulnerable for 2x damage during Frenzy's last four seconds until SR is ready again. With Assassin armor, you don't want to leave too many holes so I'm also bringing in Critical Defenses. With my stats, I block 40% of all melee and arrows coming in every four seconds, and it renews every time I hit a critical. I have a 29% chance of getting a crit, and my hit rate is now at about two per second. I get eight hits connecting during CD's active time, so I'll be getting comfortably 2-3 crits as long as I don't stop attacking. It doesn't totally remove the danger of getting hit under Frenzy, but it certainly helps a lot.

While under both Shadow Refuge and Critical Defenses, you have essentially reduced damage by 70% every other four seconds before you count the +96 HP bonus (melee and arrows... spell damage is -50%). With the four seconds that SR is off, you still are shaking off 40% of the melee and arrow damage on average. Degen, blood life steals, etc. are exempt from any of these adjustments unfortunately, but the +96 HP every eight seconds helps even in that area until you can get to your Monk or heal naturally.

Finally, I should address the energy needed to fuel this build. It takes 25E for the BMT combo, the elite costs 10E and so does Shadowy Burden. Crit defenses is 10E, but it stays on indefinitely as long as you connect your Crits, so only use it when you are trying to stay on target to save energy. Shadow Refuge is only 5E every 8 secs., but no amount is small if your mana is low. Frenzy is 5E for 8s as well.

I am getting +2E per Crit (29% chance), which means a max +1.2E a second with my setup (factor in double strikes and Frenzy). Also I have Zealous knives connecting for +2E every second (+1E x0.48) at my optimum attack speed. With +1E per second from natural regen, I'm getting +4.2E a second at max (or earning almost 13 pips) as long as Locusts' Fury and Frenzy are up and I'm hitting them. Even if it comes to 8-10 pips in reality, that's still pretty good. Cripple and -25% speed from SB will help keep my offense going however, so I'm not overly worried... yet.

If you can, run LF, SB and Frenzy on an enemy to get the max DPS going while simultaneously recharging your mana quickly. You need 25E at least to get the BMT combo to fully work, so have at least 20E in the bank before you pull the first trigger.

Since LF runs out in 25s, that's as good a time as any to use BMT since double strikes don't work with attack skills, but you have a lot of time to do it once beforeLF ends just to maximize a spike kill if he's at 40% health or less. If you do it after LF runs out, by the time that mini combo is done, your next LF is ready to be put back on (30s recharge).

Or, use up 25E early with the BMT combo first, then while he's still crippled you can then start using gained energy for LF first, followed by the snare of SB and then Frenzy him for your 61 DPS+ max energy regen. Again, I'll need to test to find the best strats.

This write-up took longer than I thought. Hopefully I haven't made any major mistakes, but I'll correct it and update the build if there are. I can eke out a bit more short term DPS if I raise CS up to 13 and SA down to 4, but it won't be worth it... Shadowy Burden would last too short for any long term benefits, and my HP bonus from SR is gutted. Still, it's an option for those who want to maximize their total damage and gain +3E per critical in the process instead of +2E.

In theory this DPS build can kill an enemy in 8-10 seconds from melee attacks alone. Add to that the spike damage of the BMT combo and this can potentially be one of the most dangerous Assassin builds possible in the game. :cool:

You have some very solid ideas in here. Good work. Although I'm not sure that you're calculating your effective Attack speed and DPS correctly. (I could be wrong - it's early Saturday morning and my head is a bit fuzzy.)

Remember that the true *attack speed* value is capped at 1 second, I think, but that's okay because technically speaking, even with Frenzy running, your dagger attack speed is 1.00 (1.33 / 1.33). The beauty of the getting two strikes in one attack is that it increases your *effective* attack speed, getting around the hard-coded limit of 1.00.

With DM 16 and Locust's Fury, you have a 52% chance of double-strikes. this means your effective attack speed with all your stuff running is 0.66 seconds per attack (1.00 / 1.52). Apply this to the DPS formula for a 29% crit rate and you get 23.4 DPS:

Dagger DPS (29% crit): 23.4 ( [[12 * .71] + [24 * .29]] / 0.66 )

Now, while Shadowy Burden is still running, you get aother 41.42% DPS on top of that basic 23.4 DPS, because of the -20 AL GSM shift from Shadowy Burden: (23.4 * 1.4142) = 33.1 DPS

With your +20% and +15% Damage mods, you get up to 44.7 DPS (33.1 x 1.35) DPS when everything is running, but personally I don't like to take those damage mods into account because everyone has them. I prefer to focus on the damage from your attributes and skills and base weapon range.

So with your build as-is, I see a constant 23.4 DPS, with 8 out of every 30 seconds yeilding 33.1 DPS.

However, a few other comments:


You listed 11 Deadly Arts, but I think you meant 11 Shadow Arts.
I think that Siphon Speed (from Deadly Arts) is a much better hex to apply as a precondition for your dagger combo. The effective speed increase for you is 30%, it takes only 1 second to cast and costs only 5 energy, and best of all, it lasts much longer and it refreshes long before it runs out, so you can constantly reapply it to keep your target from getting away and you'll always have the hex precondition needed to make your combo deal the most damage.
At a 29% crit rate, Critical Defenses should keep refreshing constantly because on average 1 out of every 3 hits (almost) will be a crit. But if you have to stop attacking to give chase, then you're screwed until that long 30 second recharge is finished. I'd consider replacing Critical Defenses with Way of Perfection instead, which at SA 11 is like having 4.6 pips of health regen.
For lasting only 8 seconds (and locking you into a Warrior secondary), I'm not sure that Frenzy is really buying you that much. I'd consider just replacing Frenzy with a Rez, so that you can keep your hex, which is critically important to this build, IMO.
I'd suggest reworking things to drop the points for Shadow Arts and put some points into Deadly Arts to see whether you can get Siphon Speed to work for you as your hex.

Almas Darksoul
08-04-2006, 17:47
Thought i'd run the numbers for this build considering my love of them and the previous post.
The damage enhancement is 1.38, not 1.35, as the bonuses are multiplied together according to SonOfRah's text. The base damage is 12.

The Armor Modifier is 2^((68-40)/40) for basic attacks (the armor debuff is applied to the EAL, not the GSM). This comes to 26.9 DPS.

A Critical Hit will deal ~53.9 damage according to these calculations, and with a 29% chance of one happening, this brings the DPS up to around 34.7 on average.

Finally, factoring in the increased attack speed (one attack every .48 seconds), I get a final dps of 72.35 DPS while all the debuffs are on.
I think I must have calculated something poorly ><. One reason why I think I might have a different result to arrendondo is that -20 armor does not equal +25% damage, gives a result closer to √2*100 % damage, or +41.42%. This brings the average up a little, but I can't figure out any other reasons why the difference might be there, other than miscalculation of the bonus from crits.

Patccmoi
08-04-2006, 17:59
You got it wrong on the attack speed shaktiboi.

It's not really your fault, ANet wrote a kinda stupid description, but 33% increased attack speed isn't in fact 33% IAS, it's 33% reduced cooldown on attack.

So really, it's a 50% IAS, or if you want 50% DPS increase. In Frenzy, a 1.33 sec weapon hits every 0.87 seconds (which is the cap you can get without factoring double strikes).

If you go for DPS, not using an IAS would simply be stupid, since it's a +50% DPS right there.

I would personally NEVER use Frenzy without a cancelling stance tough. Against any good group this means you're dead. Maybe you got Shadowy Burden, but it's not gonna be funny when they decide that they want to use a Shatter Enchant on it and you take 200 damage and you're stuck for 7 more seconds taking 2 x damage. Or if you're hit by something like Lightning Orb-Lightning Strike when you don't have your Shadowy Burden on, which can very well hit you for something like 350 damage in 2 sec, and that's from 1 guy only (anyone else deciding to focus you and you're dead).

Ask any good warrior currently if they would think of bringing frenzy without a cancelling stance and none ever would. You see warriors that have Charge! and add Rush on top just to be able to cancel Frenzy at will. And most warriors never turn on Frenzy when their cancelling stance isn't ready.

So really i think i'd drop Critical Defense for Rush. It will always be ready, being your only adrenal skill, it can be useful to be able to move faster to catch a target OR retreat, and it gives you a chance to use Frenzy much more safely.

Trust me, any good team seeing someone with Frenzy that doesn't cancel it will just clear the guy right away the next time he turns on Frenzy, and a single, non-covered enchant isn't what will save you especially since it's on only half the time.

And from my experience, Critical Defense is horrible in PvP. It might look good on paper to have it refresh every 4 sec, but really in any game there is so many times you won't meet the requirement that it keeps dropping. A blinding Flash ele deciding to get you, someone deciding to kite you (you realize you are VERY weak to kiting with a build like that with no move speed buff and a crippling attack that requires a hex on target, the hex in question taking 2 sec to cast so the guy can already be too far out of range for you to catch up after casting it), throwing a defensive stance up, etc.

You have very high DPS against a 60AL target that isn't moving and will just take your damage without reacting, but you have no way to handle stances/defensive enchants, no way to handle kiting target, and you leave yourself fully open to enemy damage with an uncancellable Frenzy. It seems that you're hoping too much on perfect fighting situations that work on paper but that are nearly never met vs any half-decent team. Might as well use a W/R Axe with Tiger's Fury, who actually has as much DPS on a static target (around 80 for a TF-Evis-Exec-Penetrating-Rake-Sprint-Endure Pain/Heal Sig-Rez build) but can spike more reliably, can handle kiting, and doesn't make himself vulnerable.

arredondo
08-04-2006, 18:40
Again thanks for the input everyone...

- Yes I meant Shadow Arts, thanks for the correction

- If one brings a Rez over SB, I mentioned somewhere in the text that you may want to bring Leaping Mantis Strike for your Lead Cripple starter instead. It requires a runner to snare, but if you start hitting them with your high melee DPS, they will eventually take a step or two away from you and then you have them.:smiley:

Otherwise, snare an enemy running past you. I used this skill a lot in BWE and it has some decent range on it so you don't need to be literally on top of them as they move.

- shaktiboi, I'll always include +20% customized damage and +15% damage >50% health mods because I will always have them up when I attack and many other melee players will as well. If someone wants to calculate the figures with out them, they then need to sdo it on their own. With that said, your numbers aren't quite on point even though I can't immediately see where. For instance, 1.33- Frenzy's .33 is 1.00 second attack speed, but my DS rate is 52%, meaning my effective attack rate one hit every 0.48 seconds, not 0.66.

- Almas, thanks for the recalulation. I actually used 1.4142 instead of 1.25 to calculate the -20 AL from Shadowy Burden, but wrongly convinced myself that the first figure was exclusively for critical hits. I switched out the numbers before publication... your figure of 72 DPS is around what I had (almost 70 DPS calculated in a different order though) and is closer to the truth no doubt. The bottom line is that the DPS is more than I thought.

**** BONUS DPS MODIFIER ****
I will also test this setup with my second set of Daggers, this time using the Vampiric mod. If it's -1 degen/-3 HP per hit like for everyone else, then that comes to -6 HP every second or 78 DPS during the most optimal moments! Of course it may turn out that I need Zealous up since I'll lose 4E pips without them (1.3E less per second), but if it works well even for spurts of 8 seconds during Frenzy and SB, it'll be awesome to see. I'll bring both sets during early analysis. Testing, testing, testing...
**************************

- Pat, thanks for the stance cancel suggestion. It really makes sense and I'll keep working on the idea to see if I can handle this situation better. However, with 40%-70% protection from damage during Frenzy mode (and smart use of not starting the stance when being pounded on all sides) really does minimize the damage impact.

If I do choose to take out CD for a stance, it can't be for Rush. That's in the Strength line so I can't raise the stats even if I wanted to. It needs adrenaline so I can only use it during constant offense, but not re-use it for defense. Dash is better since it runs twice as fast (+50% speed) and is reuseable. I may instead pick another Shadow Arts skill:


Viper's Defense (Stance)
For 30 seconds, the next time you are struck, you teleport to a random location nearby. The foe who struck you is Poisoned for 16 seconds. 5E, 0 Cast, 10 sec. recharge

Still, unless the melee target (me) is zapped by multiple enchant removers (rather than a caster or Monk) during this primary eight second assault period, it won't be a monumental concern during general play as long as I'm smart (theory mode I admit). I am only using Frenzy when I am not being targeted or I have my all my protection on. WaMos seem to do well with enchants on them currently, seeing as how they CoP Spiteful/SoF/Blindness, etc. Enchant use in melee is not an odd concept, especially those with low recharges.

Any build that's targeted to be attacked by the entire team is in trouble unless your team is prepared to aide in protect/heal or debuff the enemy. Again, I'll see for myself what limitations come up defensively before I see what adjustments are best. Also, Critical Defenses is now a 6 second enchant. This was probably done to deal with the issue you raise.

Moving on, Shatter Enchant spikes, etc. is a danger to any caster build that uses enchants. Someone shatters my Shadow Refuge and I get 96 HP back - no loss. They can also shatter RoF placed on me, or Healing Breeze if someone has them... does that mean they should never be cast? Clumsiness spikes are the same in causing damage to your 80 DPS Warrior who tries to attack... should he be a caster instead to avoid the possibility?

All these possibilities (and hundreds more) are obvious. I guess I don't see the point of bringing up general counters since every single build has plenty to look out for, and no build can prevent the impact of all of them without help... you only get 8 slots, and in this scenario raised it's my 8 slots vs. the power of 32 to 48 slots focused on me. Maybe my team is involved as well.

If Critical Defenses is on top of Shadow Refuge, then a single enchant dispell still keep SR up. SR will directly protect me from Frenzy's 2x damage penalty since I now take half damage. The +96 health (and maybe kiting if under heavy fire) makes up for some the four seconds I am vulnerable in this one specifically designed scenario. Combined with a decent Monk, it's not as if I have Frenzy on with absolutely no way of mitigating damage.

Wise use of Frenzy combined with 40%-70% protection at the same time isn't going to be the guaranteed frag you're making it out to be. For instance, if I use Frenzy with helpful Rit spirits surrounding me then that's an added counter-scenario right there to one where most of the team focuses all their firepower on me (which is a danger to any build, and I do have my protection built in). I will test it with your comments in mind however and make adjustments as needed.

As to damage output.... at minimum, if the calculations are correct, I can get the 78 DPS (assuming Vampiric mods are viable) by going in with one enchant away from battle (LF) casting one Hex (SB) and then going into a stance (Frenzy). He's snared and I can get 624 damage from melee swings alone during that 8 seconds.

You are comparing this to a full Warrior spike combo. Well in my version, once he's halfway gone (3-4 swings?) I can go into the BMS->JS-TF combo and without protection/healing, he's dead. If he lives I can continue swinging on the crippled enemy and Bleeding is now adding to overall DPS. Your comparison is unven since I was only highlighting what my melee does alone and your 80 DPS used your attack skills. Without even calculating it (yet) I can easily sail over 80 DPS with this once I turn on my attack skills. What is a Warrior's max output using melee alone for a true comparison anyway? Use any enhancement skills he has in his tool chest to show what it goes up to.

And no, of course I'm not trying to say 98% of the kills will be that simple, but you WILL take out some that fast. I've gotten kills with plenty of builds at that speed or slower to know that even if it isn't 100% perfect, you don't assume it would be so to begin with.

You look at optimal results as you scale down to individual situation, and going in with 627 damage in 8 seconds from melee swings, especially if two of these builds were working on one target, is pretty awesome. Add one dose of the BMS combo and the the impact will indeed be felt. Hard.

shaktiboi
08-04-2006, 21:00
your numbers aren't quite on point even though I can't immediately see where. For instance, 1.33- Frenzy's .33 is 1.00 second attack speed, but my DS rate is 52%, meaning my effective attack rate one hit every 0.48 seconds, not 0.66.


I'm going to bring this up again because having the correct weapon speed is crucial to having accurate numbers for your calculated DPS.

You're not calculating attack the effective weapon speed the proper way. The formula is ( base speed / [1 + %DS]).

Even though Pattccmoi pointed out that my interpretation of Frenzy is wrong, let's stick with a base weapon speed of 1.00 swings per second, just because it helps to keep a descriptive example easy to understand.

If you normally make 100 swings in 100 seconds (with a base speed of 1.00), then with a 52% double-strike chance, that means 52 of those 100 will be double strikes. The other 48 of those hundred will be single strikes. So, over 100 seconds, you've made 48 + (52 x 2) strikes. Which equals 152 strikes. Now if you make 152 strikes in 100 seconds, that means your effective weapon speed is 100 / 152, which equals .66 seconds per swing. Multiply .66 x 152 and you get 100 seconds.

So my formula is the way to go for calcuating your effective weapon speed, which you must then factor into the formula for averaging the crits and the non-crits to get your actual effective DPS.

So, using Patcc's corrected interpretation of Frenzy, we *start* wth a base weapon speed of 0.87. With your 52% chance of double strikes, we end up with an effective weapon speed of 0.57 (0.87 / 1.52)

Now plug that adjusted weapon speed into the DPS formula for a 29% crit chance:

([12 * .71] + [24 * .29]) / 0.57 )

This yields an effective DPS of 42.1, excluding all other modifiers such as the +20% and +15% weapon mods. Tack on the +35% mods and you're up to 56.8 DPS.

Anyway you slice it, this is great DPS. It's just that you're not hitting a 70 DPS number.

arredondo
08-04-2006, 21:40
OK, so the attack rate was in between both mine and your number... so yes it's still great. You explained it perfectly.

In your subsequent calculations you leave out the -20 AL bonus from Shadowy Burden. That would pump up the damage for all hits another 41.42% according to what's been said, correct? Then add my after thought of Vampiric mod hits which is itself another 3.42 DPS using your adjusted speed stats. Altogether it takes us back up to 70+ DPS I believe.

I'm getting 84.3 DPS strictly using your calculated figure, factoring in Vamp's 3.42 after everything else since I doubt blood steals can be enhanced in anyway.

IWantMORIDIN
08-04-2006, 21:52
Customized daggers at 16 dagger mastery that meet the +15% damage have a range of 11.0952-26.9514 damage. That is a dps of 18.32 with a crit rate of 28%. With frenzy, that is a dps of 27.35. Multiple that by 1.52 (double strikes) to get 41.572 dps. With the 20 reduced armor, that is 58.79 dps.

Without frenzy (2/3 the damage) that is 27.892 dps and 39.45 with -20 AL.

You seem to be underestimating frenzy- random spamming of Shadow Refuge totally kills your dps, and assassins under frenzy can easily be spiked in under the 1 second cast. You really need a cancel stance. Shadowy Burden and Black Mantis Thrust seem kind of iffy for anti-kite, since a quick removal of Burden totally kills your dps for 15 seconds.

Also, did you check that Critical Strikes when changed from “crits this way” to just “crits”? I didn’t play an assassin over the weekend.

Please point out any flaws in my math. You guys seem to be making the attack rate too hard on yourself- 50% double strikes=50% more dps.

Overall, I think that warriors are harder to counter and have a scarier spike.

arredondo
08-04-2006, 22:19
Heh, this calculation of the final hit rate has me going back and forth. I think the calculation for reduction is current rate-(current /added rate). Here that means 1-(1*.52)= .48 swings per second.

If we are looking at a base number 4 and wanted 25% more then 4x1.25 gives us 5. If we start with 4 and want to give 25% away, then it's 4-(4x.25)= 3. Using 80 and figuring in +/- 10%, you get 80x1.1= 88, and 80-(80x.1)= 72... both are correct.

So it seems every .48 seconds, I can get the damage of one attack connecting.

shaktiboi
08-04-2006, 22:54
Heh, this calculation of the final hit rate has me going back and forth. I think the calculation for reduction is current rate-(current /added rate). Here that means 1-(1*.52)= .48 swings per second.

If we are looking at a base number 4 and wanted 25% more then 4x1.25 gives us 5. If we start with 4 and want to give 25% away, then it's 4-(4x.25)= 3. Using 80 and figuring in +/- 10%, you get 80x1.1= 88, and 80-(80x.1)= 72... both are correct.

So it seems every .48 seconds, I can get the damage of one attack connecting.


I'm 100% confident in my formula for calculating effective weapon speed. My descriptive walkthru a few posts up describes what is happening. Trust me, it's [base weapon speed / ( 1 + %chance to double hit)] You're approaching the math the wrong way, which is one of the things that makes Assassins hard to intuitively figure.

Also note that you have to figure out the base weapon speed *before* you start factoring in the % chance to double hit. In other words, you have to apply the speed increase from Frenzy first to the 1.33 base dagger speed. then and only then do you divide the result by the % chance to double hit (plus 1). If you do things in any other order, you're getting it wrong.

IWantMORIDIN
08-04-2006, 22:56
Heh, this calculation of the final hit rate has me going back and forth. I think the calculation for reduction is current rate-(current /added rate). Here that means 1-(1*.52)= .48 swings per second.

If we are looking at a base number 4 and wanted 25% more then 4x1.25 gives us 5. If we start with 4 and want to give 25% away, then it's 4-(4x.25)= 3. Using 80 and figuring in +/- 10%, you get 80x1.1= 88, and 80-(80x.1)= 72... both are correct.

So it seems every .48 seconds, I can get the damage of one attack connecting.

Lets simplify this. Anet introduces a new weapon, the baby rattles. 1-1 damage, 0% crit chance, 1 attack every second. When the Baby goes into a rage, she attacks 50% faster, thus getting 1.5 dps. To get 1.5 dps with 1 damage attacks, the baby has to attack once every 2/3s of a second. So lets analize- 3/2 the damage= one attack every 2/3 the time. Thus, 11/10 the damage= one attack every 10/11 the time (10% of double strike).

Thus, at 52% (152/100) you attack once every (100/152) times your normal attack speed. 100/152*1.33=.875. Add frenzy (+50%=150/100=3/2, reciprocal= 2/3) and you hit one attack every .583333333 (etc) (7/12) second.

Using my original figure of 24.37 average dph, 24.37/(7/12)= 41.77714286, which is what I got before.

shaktiboi
08-04-2006, 22:58
Lets simply this. Anet introduces a new weapon, the baby rattles. 1-1 damage, 0% crit chance, 1 attack every second. When the Baby goes into a rage, she attacks 50% faster, thus getting 1.5 dps. To get 1.5 dps with 1 damage attacks, the baby has to attack once every 2/3s of a second. So lets analize- 3/2 the damage= one attack every 2/3 the time. Thus, 11/10 the damage= one attack every 10/11 the time (10% of double strike).

Thus, at 52% (152/100) you attack once every (100/152) times your normal attack speed. 100/152*1.33=.875. Add frenzy (+50%=150/100=3/2, reciprocal= 2/3) and you hit one attack every .583333333 (etc) (7/12) second.

Using my original figure of 18.32 dps, 18.32/(7/12)= 31.405716, which is totally different from what I got before, leaving me totally confused.

Have you looked at my description of weapon speed in the Dagger FAQ? That's where you start. If you can refute that math, please do.

IWantMORIDIN
08-04-2006, 23:03
Have you looked at my description of weapon speed in the Dagger FAQ? That's where you start. If you can refute that math, please do.

I'm fairly sure that I was agreeing with you, but trying to explain it differently.

In your first post where you computed the DPS, you used one attack per 1 second (instead of the correct one attack every 8/9 of a second due to messed up skill descriptions) and I think you used 12 dagger mastery instead of 16, which is where our difference in damage came up.

In your second post, our numbers are quite similiar, so I don't see where the disagreement is. I was disagreeing with Arredondo, not you.

shaktiboi
08-04-2006, 23:37
I'm fairly sure that I was agreeing with you, but trying to explain it differently.

In your first post where you computed the DPS, you used one attack per 1 second (instead of the correct one attack every 8/9 of a second due to messed up skill descriptions) and I think you used 12 dagger mastery instead of 16, which is where our difference in damage came up.

In your second post, our numbers are quite similiar, so I don't see where the disagreement is. I was disagreeing with Arredondo, not you.

Ah, sorry then, I didn't quite grasp your intent. Please accept apologies for my being contentious. :)

arredondo
09-04-2006, 01:39
OK, while I was out feeding the ducks with my lil' one, I manually did the math on paper without any Excel or calculator to feed any laziness :tongue:

Going from 1 swing per 1.00 second to one swing every other second plus 2 swings every other second does calculate to one swing every .66 seconds. Sorry for doubting you. The way I had it was close to getting a full two swings (or a double strike) every second which is obviously not correct. I agree with everyone on the speed issue then; I get 1.5 swings a second IF we start at 1 swing = 1 second. Of course with the corrected Frenzy calculation (i.e. 1.33-{1.33x.33}), we get to 0.57 total for a swing, which comes to a total of 1.75 swings per second (1/.57).

So shaktiboi: I used your calculations and got over 80 once SB's 41.42 is factored in (and then add Vamp which gives 5.26 damage per second, correcting myself from before). Does that look correct to you? Let me manually do it:

- Base damage = 12 (7 to 17 possible)

- 38% dual mod total = 16.56 average damage every 1.33s without factoring in Crits, DPS, or double strikes

-Critical damage is 17x.1.4142 = 24 damage

- The adjusted speed is .57 and the chance at a Crit is 29%:
([16.56x .71] + [24x .29]) / 0.57 )=
(11.76+6.96)/.57= 32.84 per .57 seconds.
That becomes 57.61 DPS (32.84/.57)

- Shadowy Burden penalty adds 41.42% damage
57.61x 1.4142= 81.47

- Add Vamp's 5.26 per second to get....

86.73 max DPS

Have I gotten any step wrong?

Zaxares
09-04-2006, 02:16
Off the cuff question. What happens if you double strike with a dual attack? Do you get 4 times the normal skill damage? If you were using a Zealous or Vampiric weapon at the time, the payoff would be tremendous. :shocked:

arredondo
09-04-2006, 02:29
I mentioned it a few times I think... double strikes don't work on skills, just basic melee.

shaktiboi
09-04-2006, 03:49
I mentioned it a few times I think... double strikes don't work on skills, just basic melee.

Double strikes do work on skills. :smiley: Syes has a screen shot on page 1 of the Dagger FAQ v2 that proves it. One other poster also corroborated the behavior on the thread.

MaximumSquid
09-04-2006, 04:33
Have I gotten any step wrong?

Additional effects like deep wounds and bleed will increase your DPS further.

Time needed to casting spells like shadowy burden and locusts fury will lower it.



I really have to hand it to you though man. . .

You're taking the pen and paper builds to the extreme! :brainiac:

arredondo
09-04-2006, 04:48
Double strikes do work on skills. :smiley: Syes has a screen shot on page 1 of the Dagger FAQ v2 that proves it. One other poster also corroborated the behavior on the thread.

I'm off for a re-read... thanks!

MaximumSquid... You cast LF on yourself away from battle. Cast Shadowy Burden and then vegin to calculate DPS with your first strike. Frenzy stance comes on during attack animation.... voila! Super crazy damage-per-second numbers! You're not gutting DPS this way at all.

BTW, all this attention to detail is paying off. I think I stumbled on to some melee facts that I haven't seen posted anywhere yet. I'm verifying what I found and will post it in the main thread for discussion and further input.

arredondo
09-04-2006, 06:39
OK kids, it seems we were not generous enough with our Critical hit calculations. Instead of merely moving numbers around, I actually conducted an experiment...

- Build a WaNe for Nameless Isle dummy practice
- All you need with you is Wild Blow (100% chance of Critical hit), Weaken Armor (-20% armor to melee), one Axe w/+15% damage >50% health, and one Axe w/+20% damage <50% health.
-Put 12 in Curses, put Axe Mastery on your helmet with Sup. Axe rune (+3+1)
- Set your Axe points at the lowest.

- Go to the 60 AL dummy
- Take off the helmet to be at Axe Mastery=0 (or take my word for it's damage value)
- Use Wild Blow for 3 damage
- You can increase your Atts by one step (put helmet back on) to learn the exact Critical amount for each attack level.
- All maxed PvP weapons increase damage dramatically at L9. Here are the values I recorded for different weapons levels 9-16:


Axe..... : 42, 46, 50, 55, 57, 59, 61, 63
Hammer: 53, 57, 63, 68, 71, 73, 76, 78
Sword..: 33, 36, 39, 43, 44, 46, 48, 49

I also used the storage bin to test my plain old 10-18 L6 sword that was NOT customized or had any other bonus mods:


L6 Sword, starting at L12: 25, 26, 27, 28, 29

As you can see, the scaling is different before 12 and slows down after. Playing with the numbers I can see that L12 Critical hit amount is indeed the max weapon damage x1.4142 for all of them. This however is not enough to find out how much a Critical does at L16. It looks as if multiplying L12's value by 1.14 will give you a close idea about how much the highest Critical damage is for a weapon (barring +1 Attribute 20% mod or similar spells for Necro and Ele).

As an aside, when I cast Necro's Weaken armor on an enemy, it did tremendous damage as expected. A L16 Hammer getting a Critical from Wild Blow vs. a WA hexed target (60 AL) did 111 damage. :tongue:. For comparison, the damage is 78 without the hex, or roughly 41% less as exepected.

So I tested this as a way of comparing numbers for L16 Criticals... it looks to hold up:

Weapon's max damage x (20% custom damage and 15% mod damage) x -20 AL x L16 bonus damage

*** in number form for Daggers ***

17 x 1.38 x 1.4142 x 1.14= 37.82 per Critical hit in my build.

I can now recalculate, but I discovered that my last equations incorrectly double counted the .57 rate. That caused a huge jump in the totals, which I also fix here:

++++++++

- Base damage = 12 (7 to 17 possible)

- 38% dual mod total = 16.56 average damage every 1.33s without factoring in Crits, DPS, or double strikes

- Critical damage is 17x. 1.4142x 1.38x 1.14 = 37.82 damage each crit

- The adjusted speed under Locuts' Fury, Frenzy, and L16 Dagger Mastery is .57 and the chance at a Crit is 29%. So...

([16.56x .71] + [37.82x .29]) / 0.57 )=
(11.76+10.97)= 22.73 per .57 seconds.
That becomes 39.87 DPS (22.73/.57)

- Shadowy Burden penalty adds 41.42% damage
39.87x 1.4142= 56.39 dps

- Add Vamp's 5.26 per second to get....

61.65 max DPS

That's the same DPS from the first post! :laugh: It was done a different way and without the Vamp mod, so it's only a coincidence. So it isn't as high as I thought it'd be, but it is still very good. 8 seconds of attacking them under SB will still get a kill before you factor in the BMS combo. And now it seems that you can get double strikes from skills as well.

LF->SB->Frenzy->2-4 melee attacks->BMS combo--> clean up the mess on your way out. I'm pleased with the results.

Nightfall Crescent
09-04-2006, 11:12
what about using Impale? since you have a nice chance to dual attack, wouldn't that be a very good damage output?

arredondo
09-04-2006, 18:33
Sadly, Impale only works on "Dual Attacks". What I am spamming here are "double strikes". Dual Attacks are the last, two-hitting special skill that is done only after an Off-Hand, like Twisted Fangs. Double strikes are just the act of any attack hitting twice, which can happen at any time with normal or special attacks. The frequency of double strikes increases with high Dagger Mastery points and adding the elite Locuts' Fury (max +52% chance).

Since I was shown it works on skills, it would appear that the two attack types I'm describing here can combine for many hits on an enemy simultaneusly from one button click. I think the picture in the Dagger Faq shows that one enemy was hit by a Dual Attack which branched into double strikes. This seems to be able to produce

- Two separate special hits combined with the base damage value added to each
- Both of those hits themselves may be able to double strike, adding four more hits from a single skill attack
- The base value damage from double strikes AND the special attack skill itself can produce critical hits to add to the damage

So this type of damage from one attack MAY be possible if I am understanding this correctly. It'll be easy to test with Critical Strike BTW:


Critical Strike (Dual Attack)
Must follow and off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +(1..8 [11]) damage and results in a Critical Hit.

So L13 in CS gives us +10 damage with the guaranteed Crit hit using this skill. For test purposes when calculating the crit of other attacks, we see in my Ultimate Critical Assassin thread that we can hit 73% chance of a critical for other attacks. My test would be:

- (Lead, Off-hand),
- Critical Strike dual attack. This should hit twice with each doing damage of 2(10+38)= 48x2 = 96.
- If each of these two Dual Attack hits produces it's own double strikes (two more hits each) that themsleves are all criticals from the 73% chance, you have 38x4= 152.
- Total max damage from one Dual Attack (Critical Strike) activation: 248

I know for a fact that skill damage is added to Critical damage when they occur together because I tested it with a Warrior right now (Seeking Blade +21 damage and L16 Critical hit of +49 damage = 70 damage). It's been confirmed that skills produce double strikes. The attacks of double strikes can register as critical hits. What I'm not 100% on is if each attack from a Dual Attack can individually trigger a double strike, or if only one double strike occurs from one attack input. That'll be easy to test with Locusts' Fury, and if so then the last example becomes:

2(10+38)+(38x2)= (48x2)+76= 96+76= 172 damage from one Dual Attack activation.

jamesmackswell
09-04-2006, 18:59
What if you are blinded/crippled/etc? What about stance spammers?

You could take monk as a secondary for purge conditions, or use expose defenses vs. stances.

Gangrel
09-04-2006, 21:10
Arredondo you are the king of paper combat. The only problem is taht your target won't be a practice dumy that will just stand there and take it. You will need to ecast your spells, you will need to chase down your target. You will miss/be blocked/evaded. You will be knockdown... This build can't spike. There are no stationary 60AL targets without any protection.

Casters will use enchants, stances and will kite.. That DPS look great on paper, but is really poor when you actually try to play that build.

And frenzy.. In GvG and HoH teams are just looking for opportunitys like that. And no cancel stance is just suicide.

A simple prot spirit stops your uber DPS. As I said, that build looks great on paper but has almost no practical use.

arredondo
09-04-2006, 23:45
Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn. I already acknowledged Pat's insistence on including a stance cancel for Frenzy (I even chose Viper's Defense for possibly Critical Defense) if it turns out that I needed it, but all the other stuff being brought up are typical counters to nearly any build that uses these type of skills (enchant, melee, etc.).

I just want to run tests first before making any more switches, which is why this is on "paper" instead of me reporting from experience like I've done with many, many successful Necro and Mesmer builds I've made. If you have a pre-release copy of Factions you can loan me boy-genius, I'll be happy to test it right now about what works well and what doesn't.

Tell you what... instead of once again trying to debate the ridiculous theme of your point, I'll ask you to PLEASE post one of YOUR original builds that has NO counters to look out for. Will the King of Armchair Quaterbacks respond to the King of Paper Combat? I'll wait and see. Don't bother responding until you post one of these uber-unstoppable builds that I somehow can't seem to create.

The lamest forum troll job in the world is sitting back until its time to point out the obvious counters to something someone comes up with. Yes, we all KNOW that enchants exist, that people will kite (despite my TWO snares), but thanks for the heads up.:rolleyes:

Patccmoi
10-04-2006, 00:45
Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn. I already acknowledged Pat's insistence on including a stance cancel for Frenzy (I even chose Viper's Defense for possibly Critical Defense) if it turns out that I needed it, but all the other stuff being brought up are typical counters to nearly any build that uses these type of skills (enchant, melee, etc.).

I just want to run tests first before making any more switches, which is why this is on "paper" instead of me reporting from experience like I've done with many, many successful Necro and Mesmer builds I've made. If you have a pre-release copy of Factions you can loan me boy-genius, I'll be happy to test it right now about what works well and what doesn't.

Tell you what... instead of once again trying to debate the ridiculous theme of your point, I'll ask you to PLEASE post one of YOUR original builds that has NO counters to look out for. Will the King of Armchair Quaterbacks respond to the King of Paper Combat? I'll wait and see. Don't bother responding until you post one of these uber-unstoppable builds that I somehow can't seem to create.

The lamest forum troll job in the world is sitting back until its time to point out the obvious counters to something someone comes up with. Yes, we all KNOW that enchants exist, that people will kite (despite my TWO snares), but thanks for the heads up.:rolleyes:

The thing tough is how vulnerable your build is to these counters which are overall frequent.

Like when i said Shatter Enchant on your Shadow Refuge, you answer with something like 'yes, we know that enchant removal and they are counters to any build yet builds still use enchants', seeming to entirely miss the point of why i was saying it, which was that your Shadow Refuge is the only thing that was protecting you while in Frenzy from being utterly destroyed in a few seconds. So Shatter Enchant becomes more than a little counter, it strikes you for 200 damage (well, let's say 100 damage after heal from enchant ending) while leaving you open for 4-8 seconds to 2 x damage. That is EXTREMELY dangerous. Much more than if other enchants are removed depending on the build. Will you ignore the fact that enchant removal exist too when making an IW build and use no cover enchant and just say 'bla bla, enchant removal exist that doesn't mean you can't make a build based on enchant'? I mean, if your build revolves around IW and it's stripped, you're useless (or nearly). So enchant controls becomes MUCH MORE important for yourself. Just like for this build, since Shadow Refuge was more or less your only real way to survive while in Frenzy and you couldn't cancel frenzy, enchant removal was much more threatening for your build than most.

And when your build focuses on DPS and not spike damage, kiting and block/evade stance/enchants are much much more of a trouble since you're useless if kited. Take an adrenal spiking warrior, it's not so bad if he's kited a bit (still most carry things like Bull's Strike + Shock + Rush/Sprint which makes them able to handle kiting very well), because his main goal isn't just to DPS. It's to switch on a target and do an Evis-Exec spike to try to kill him. So he can just build his adrenal on whoever. If casters are kiting, build on the other team's warriors, who cares.

But your build is based on DPS. Not spiking. And in order to do your only really spiking damage, Twisted Fangs, you need 2 successful hits first, making block/evade that much more of a trouble for you.

You can't dismiss counters that are truly detrimental to your build and very common either. Because then all it does is a paper build, that might work well in RA, sometimes in TA vs less organized team, but can't really go anywhere competitive.

If your strength relies on DPS, your DPS must be extremely reliable. If your strength relies on spiking, your spiking must be reliable, but you can afford to be kited a bit, etc as long as you can spike your target. If an enchant is key to your survival, then enchant control (cover enchant, or alternative to using this enchant) is crucial for you. If it's an enchant that only helps, enchant removal isn't the same kind of trouble. I know for instance that now you said you'll include another stance to cancel frenzy, see this makes Shadow Refuge becomes a useful enchant, but not crucial, so now Shatter Enchant is not what i would call a counter to your build.

If your build's efficiency is reduced heavily easily by commonly used skills (and the general skills accessed by the keys W A S D), then there is a problem. Currently the problem i'd see is going for high DPS without taking into account that your opponent can block/evade. So a stance-breaker, enchant breaker or 'can't be blocked/evaded' skill would greatly help you. Wild Blow for example, which also gives you a sure crit reducing its energy cost. To get to your spike more easily, you could remove Black Mantis Trust then and instead use Golden Phoenix Strike, which is a straight off-hand if enchanted (you can use Shadow Refuge for that), or Black Lotus which is a straight off-hand on an enchanted foe.

There is also the very useful Expose Defense that you could use with an increased move speed stance instead of Shadowy Burden, etc. Or a blinding attack combined with Unseen Fury, etc.

These modifications might lower your DPS a bit on paper, but that will make you much harder to counter in the end. If you just dismiss the times when an opponent will kite and block/evade you forever but be satisfied that sometimes it works on a fire ele in RA, fine. But if you want a build that can be used reliably at a good level of play in many situations and that doesn't rely on your opponent being stupid, it's important sometimes to slightly lower the efficiency of your build in optimal cases but make it solid even when this optimality isn't met. And it just seems to me that your build relied a damn lot on not being countered.

arredondo
10-04-2006, 03:11
The thing tough is how vulnerable your build is to these counters which are overall frequent.


I ask the exact same question please... show me a build that doesn't have general counters. Your great Crippling Mesmer from way back when went through various changes/adjustments, but the central idea was very solid and was enjoyable to play (your last revisement I believe):


Crippling Anguish
Phantasm
Arcane Conundrum
Faintheartedness
Drain Enchant
Power Drain
Mantra of Persistence
Rez Sig

10 + 3 Illu
10 + 2 Inspiration (minor mask)
9 Curses
rest Fast Cast (really don't need much, all but 1 spells are 1 sec cast time and the other is 2 sec)


Sure, hex removal, hex breaker, interrupts, e-drain, Diversion, etc. etc. could snuff a user using that type of build, but it certainly worked when it worked. Did you have self heals? No. Something to mitigate elemental damage? No. Shadow Refuge provides both. Anti-melee besides the single snare? I have two snare and two skills that mitigate melee damage, as well as Critical Defenses (currently). You didn't use a Hex protector or Condition remover. Yes, the build had vulnerabilities, but that didn't diminsh the build's integrity when you accounted for those issues with your team's setup. As a smart player with decent teammates, you obviously were effective with it.

That's all I'm saying here... if it works, great... look what it does at peak efficiency. If you're stopped, use the defenses I put in, add your own, or look to your team for help since 1v8 is the ultimate in forum counter-strategy I see in various builds people post. As if one player has to deal with the entire team himself for every possibility. Impossible - unless one of these type of builds exist. So show me an example of one that covers all these bases.


Like when i said Shatter Enchant on your Shadow Refuge, you answer with something like 'yes, we know that enchant removal and they are counters to any build yet builds still use enchants', seeming to entirely miss the point of why i was saying it, which was that your Shadow Refuge is the only thing that was protecting you while in Frenzy from being utterly destroyed in a few seconds. So Shatter Enchant becomes more than a little counter, it strikes you for 200 damage (well, let's say 100 damage after heal from enchant ending) while leaving you open for 4-8 seconds to 2 x damage. That is EXTREMELY dangerous.

C'mon man. I was very specific in my answer to you there. I had an idea of what I would test against SE, and the fact that I did put something up (untested admittedly) shows I didn't blow the point off. If they shattered Critical Defenses instead, I'd take half damage and get +96 health in a few seconds. If I have Frenzy on, that zips back up to full damage... -100 SE damage+50 SR protection SE-50 Frenzy penalty+96 SR bonus= a net-4 HP loss. How is that so ridiculous to at least test?

If that's the trade off, -4 HP, I can live with that. And that's not counting the Ritualist and Monk support from an organized team. It may not be the final answer, it may not be a build in the GW World Championships but show me how many "general builds" are? This one is decent for what it does, despite obvious weaknesses.

Will you go on record to say all the Assassin teleports are useless since they can be Shattered by a spell that takes 25s to recharge? Is the moral of the story only Monk enchants have worth since they can heal through shatter so well? I mean a bunch of WaMos running around with enchants to dispell with CoP seem to be doing fine despite this specific threat, so I scratch my head wondering how it is a dominate issue here to worry about.

If I get team spiked by 3-4 Shatter Enchants, ok, my healer/protectors have to help or I type 'gg'... I can't stop everything. But even the pre-built R/A setup that was working nicely during BWE didn't have the defensive attention I've put here so far. A bigger deal is being made of this, especially after I tried to address it before I test, than needs to be. And if they use Drain Enchant or the like, I still get +96 and it's recharged in less than 8 seconds. I do not need to address SR anymore.


Much more than if other enchants are removed depending on the build. Will you ignore the fact that enchant removal exist too when making an IW build and use no cover enchant and just say 'bla bla, enchant removal exist that doesn't mean you can't make a build based on enchant'? I mean, if your build revolves around IW and it's stripped, you're useless (or nearly). So enchant controls becomes MUCH MORE important for yourself. Just like for this build, since Shadow Refuge was more or less your only real way to survive while in Frenzy and you couldn't cancel frenzy, enchant removal was much more threatening for your build than most.

I've ackowledged that enchant removal issues that exist for every enchant user in Guild Wars. But obvious counters are just that... obvious. I wish there was a Assassin skill called "Uber Enchant Protector" but there isn't. Any use of enchant is subject to removal, and sometimes you can't do much about it. I'm trying to get some self healing in and focus on mitigating damage from other sources. I can't do it all because when I adjust to protect vulnerable areas, no doubt there are some I leave open.

With that said, in its current form my main enchant (Locusts' Fury) is protected by two covers now, and at least one if I switch in Viper's defense. And what if it is stripped? Unlike most IW builds, I still have my powerful combo in BWS->JS->TF. I can team up on an enemy with a partner and inflict a quick 50% damaging sting on who he's attacking, combining for a good amount of damage altogether. What do you do when you're e-drained? When Diversion spam is placed on you? Sometimes you deal with it.


And when your build focuses on DPS and not spike damage, kiting and block/evade stance/enchants are much much more of a trouble since you're useless if kited. Take an adrenal spiking warrior, it's not so bad if he's kited a bit (still most carry things like Bull's Strike + Shock + Rush/Sprint which makes them able to handle kiting very well), because his main goal isn't just to DPS. It's to switch on a target and do an Evis-Exec spike to try to kill him. So he can just build his adrenal on whoever. If casters are kiting, build on the other team's warriors, who cares.

Again I have the same response... where are we? In GW kindergarten? Why so much energy put into stating the obvious? EVERYONE knows that when you use melee or arrows to attack that xyz can mitigate its effectiveness. Does every singele Assassin build require expose defenses? Even Warriors and Rangers (before Factions using this skill) didn't have a way to guarantee their full attack strings to connect, so why require it of this build. Yes, I know that people can have ways to block/dodge the attacks.

I distort Warriors for a living and still the match somehow goes on and I can be beat. Bull Rush is nearly worthless against my Mesmer builds, so now should it should be tossed aside for "fear" of Distortion? No, and neither will I ignore 90% of the Assassin builds people post here because of the possibility of it not connecting 100% of the time.

And the "kiting" concern is what amazes me the most... I have TWO snares! One a Hex, the other a Condition! Lol, how many melee builds have access to both in one setup? Absolutely amazing. Again I'll ask until one of you answer - SHOW ME the builds that you make where these counters (or others) is NOT a concern? I learn by example sometime. Whatever uber-abilites those builds have where they don't have a care in the world, I'll gladly try and squeeze them into my eight slots.

Finally, why can't this build do a similar Evis-Exec spike on a dying enemy with the BMS combo? This is flexibility that most builds without dual offensive abilities can't produce. All my eggs aren't in one basket (besides the need to melee attack like almost all Assassin builds). I can melee spam with a high DPS rate or spike, plus I have room for some decent defense.


But your build is based on DPS. Not spiking. And in order to do your only really spiking damage, Twisted Fangs, you need 2 successful hits first, making block/evade that much more of a trouble for you.

You can't dismiss counters that are truly detrimental to your build and very common either. Because then all it does is a paper build, that might work well in RA, sometimes in TA vs less organized team, but can't really go anywhere competitive.

I'm NOT dismissing it. I'm saying that yes its an issue as it is for thousands of other melee/arrow builds. Now what do you propose? Unless 90% of the Assassin skills are ignored (or you bring Expose Defenses EVERY time - a Hex that can be removed BTW), you will HAVE to deal with this issue. So since this is clearly understood by anyone who played a melee build more than once, what's the point? It exists as much as interrupts exist to stop casters from casting. Do you bring Mantra of Concentration everywhere you go or deal with the circumstances as they happen? Here, I'll choose the latter since I can not stop everything.


If your strength relies on DPS, your DPS must be extremely reliable. If your strength relies on spiking, your spiking must be reliable, but you can afford to be kited a bit, etc as long as you can spike your target. If an enchant is key to your survival, then enchant control (cover enchant, or alternative to using this enchant) is crucial for you. If it's an enchant that only helps, enchant removal isn't the same kind of trouble. I know for instance that now you said you'll include another stance to cancel frenzy, see this makes Shadow Refuge becomes a useful enchant, but not crucial, so now Shatter Enchant is not what i would call a counter to your build.

No DPS build is 100% reliable. Again, my Distortion has kept me alive vs. many Warrior/Ranger of all skill levels. I get killed of course, but never due to straight, unmitigated DPS spikes. Yes, the more that surround me while Distorting, the more chance I'll meet an early end... unless I have help from my team. Then we get into debates over this team combo ganks that team combo, etc. I'm not trying to build the ultimate 8-man team that has an answer to every strategy in the book in one thread here.

I put up a single build that uses melee attacks, like the vast majority of Assassins will do, to maximize damage-per-second from basic attacking while providing for an additional spike combo AND dual defenses. I reduce attack damage 50%-70%, and even if I choose not to use Frenzy every single moment I'm attacking, I still look to get some decent damage with all the double strikes and SB's -20 AL penalty. It doesn't save the world, cure cancer, deliver babies, but if the numbers are correct there will be plenty of opportunities to do some solid spike damage while not being an easy takedown in the process. If something out there does more by running at peak offensive/defensive efficiency at all times... show me.


If your build's efficiency is reduced heavily easily by commonly used skills (and the general skills accessed by the keys W A S D), then there is a problem. Currently the problem i'd see is going for high DPS without taking into account that your opponent can block/evade. So a stance-breaker, enchant breaker or 'can't be blocked/evaded' skill would greatly help you. Wild Blow for example, which also gives you a sure crit reducing its energy cost. To get to your spike more easily, you could remove Black Mantis Trust then and instead use Golden Phoenix Strike, which is a straight off-hand if enchanted (you can use Shadow Refuge for that), or Black Lotus which is a straight off-hand on an enchanted foe.

There is also the very useful Expose Defense that you could use with an increased move speed stance instead of Shadowy Burden, etc. Or a blinding attack combined with Unseen Fury, etc.

OK, I'll respond more specifically to the build from this point on. I still am interested in making any changes that very obviously improve what I have so far. The BMS combo isn't untouchable, and I have thought about offering all "non-blockable/evadable" skills a few days ago as an alternate, but I don't see any Dual Attack skills that do this. Still, only after tests can I determine how necessary the spike damage is that I have now, and I highly doubt I prefer tossing out my Cripple.

Expose Defense is a removable Hex.... so while I don't see how it is any more "safe" from mitigation than other skills I have here (like Shadowy Burden), I honestly do like it a lot, but I don't expect perfection in a skill so even when I add it I'll be mindful of its weaknesses. Either way, if the Hex is removed then I lose efficiency, and without SB I lose an extra snare.

So the question is, if it isn't removed do I want more DPS or increase the likelyhood of connecting. It'll depend on the target but for general use, I'll stick with the +41% damage and additional snare that SB gives me. That is a huge bonus if the goal is trying to take a target down fast, especially if double or triple teaming aids in making it happen. If I want guaranteed hits, I'll likely make a different build for that task.


These modifications might lower your DPS a bit on paper, but that will make you much harder to counter in the end. If you just dismiss the times when an opponent will kite and block/evade you forever but be satisfied that sometimes it works on a fire ele in RA, fine. But if you want a build that can be used reliably at a good level of play in many situations and that doesn't rely on your opponent being stupid, it's important sometimes to slightly lower the efficiency of your build in optimal cases but make it solid even when this optimality isn't met. And it just seems to me that your build relied a damn lot on not being countered.

Spiking for less damage (41% less without SB) allows the enemy teeam to respond that much quicker to a teammate in trouble. Neither versions guarantee kills, but for this build I am valuing high damage. Most of the skills last long or recharge fast enough to repeat use as needed. If anti-Hex/anti-Enchant/anti-melee/Heals become issues, which they will, I'll deal with them each within the limits of the build and the team.

I don't know of any setups that don't have to have the same general concerns, but I do have healing, double protection, and two snares available to at least address some of the common issues out there while I maintain the high DPS and spike combo. If I need more after tests, I'll admit it and make the changes (starting with a stance cancel most likely).

Nanashi
10-04-2006, 03:56
Arredondo you are the king of paper combat. The only problem is taht your target won't be a practice dumy that will just stand there and take it. You will need to ecast your spells, you will need to chase down your target. You will miss/be blocked/evaded. You will be knockdown... This build can't spike. There are no stationary 60AL targets without any protection.

Casters will use enchants, stances and will kite.. That DPS look great on paper, but is really poor when you actually try to play that build.

And frenzy.. In GvG and HoH teams are just looking for opportunitys like that. And no cancel stance is just suicide.

A simple prot spirit stops your uber DPS. As I said, that build looks great on paper but has almost no practical use.

Any build in this game has that same problem. You just don't know weither you'll have the upper hand or not. Arren is just takeing the chance that this build could be king over many or not work at all. Besides we don't know the capability of his builds just yet until the launch day of Factions.

You take the risk at running any build because it's impossible to know who you're fighting until you fight them. Arren could fight a stance spammer or fight some completely ignorant warrior. Eles may blind or they may not, they may cast empathy or they may not.

So the problem you point out is the problem any build has. degen could shut down a spike team, EoE can shut down a spike team if not used correctly, anything can and will happen. You just don't know.

Gangrel
10-04-2006, 10:27
Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn. I already acknowledged Pat's insistence on including a stance cancel for Frenzy (I even chose Viper's Defense for possibly Critical Defense) if it turns out that I needed it, but all the other stuff being brought up are typical counters to nearly any build that uses these type of skills (enchant, melee, etc.).

I just want to run tests first before making any more switches, which is why this is on "paper" instead of me reporting from experience like I've done with many, many successful Necro and Mesmer builds I've made. If you have a pre-release copy of Factions you can loan me boy-genius, I'll be happy to test it right now about what works well and what doesn't.

Tell you what... instead of once again trying to debate the ridiculous theme of your point, I'll ask you to PLEASE post one of YOUR original builds that has NO counters to look out for. Will the King of Armchair Quaterbacks respond to the King of Paper Combat? I'll wait and see. Don't bother responding until you post one of these uber-unstoppable builds that I somehow can't seem to create.

The lamest forum troll job in the world is sitting back until its time to point out the obvious counters to something someone comes up with. Yes, we all KNOW that enchants exist, that people will kite (despite my TWO snares), but thanks for the heads up.:rolleyes:


It's not about posting a build that has no coutners to it, because that build does not exist. This game is well balanced an every build has a counter. But that doesn't mean you can just make any build that can beat a dummy to a pulp in 6 seconds.. Evasion, blocking, kiting will be used against you. Try putting into your build something that ignores armour, goes through blocking/evasion, can negate hexes/conditions. Your build has decent DPS on paper, but needs help with almost any kind of defense.

You want a build? Ok.

War/Mo (laugh all you can)

Strengh
smiting
axes

Primal rage*
Signet of strengh
Strengh of honor
Warriors cunning
Purge signet
Judges Insight
IWAY (yup laugh it up again)
Rez sig.

Build has around 40 aromur penetration, a very high crit chance, +13 damage per hit, can't be blocked/evaded, purge signet takes care of hexes/conditions, iway is for the attack speed buff, very situational, but In a 8v8 might be usefull. You can either use the monk skills by yurself, or take a monk with gihg smiting, and have him cast it on you. This build has the same weakness that yours has, but can go around hexes/conditions and can't be blocked/evaded. You still need some kind of help to stop kiters.

You can count the DPS on papre and see how well it goes. It's not perfect but at least it can handle stances/enchants/conditions/hexes. Instead of makeing uber builds with major DPS for braging rights, try makeing builds with buert DPS that can actually get those DPS off.

I Haven't thought about this build much and it still needs tweaking. It's not perfect and you will have energy problems (purge signet) but if you have a competent monk (the smiter one, can bring hex/condition removal) you don't have to worry about that.

And next time don't get mad when someone points out that your build looks great on paper but just gets squashed in a real battle.

Nanashi
10-04-2006, 12:26
It's not about posting a build that has no coutners to it, because that build does not exist. This game is well balanced an every build has a counter. But that doesn't mean you can just make any build that can beat a dummy to a pulp in 6 seconds.. Evasion, blocking, kiting will be used against you. Try putting into your build something that ignores armour, goes through blocking/evasion, can negate hexes/conditions. Your build has decent DPS on paper, but needs help with almost any kind of defense.

Again, you miss the point. First of all, by switching out skills like you request in order to better his survival then it's not really his build anymore. Nor is it the build he intended it to be. That's like a revamp. He is takeing the risk, anybody can tell just by the skills he uses, that he could easily be overwelmed in pvp. I can't imagine any person in the entire game that creates a build, thinks other wise. There is a possibility that any build can be taken advantage of.


It's not about posting a build that has no coutners to it, because that build does not exist. This game is well balanced an every build has a counter.

Then why are you being so hard pressed about his build? Surely spikers of all sorts have the same issue - no stances. Do you bother them about it as well?


But that doesn't mean you can just make any build that can beat a dummy to a pulp in 6 seconds

There are no rules that state that Arren MUST follow a balanced build for all his character. Thus, he has every right to not only present his build but use it in combat. Reguardless if you or anybody else dislikes it or finds it easily exploitable. I mean, lets be honest. For any meleer the best way to frustrate and take them down is to blind. Simple as that. Ele comes by, blinds an assassin, and nukes. What will the assassin do? Well if he happens to have warrior's cunning or some other form of it, then perhaps he can get close. If he doesn't, then he's just going to run away.

The problem you present to the table is no different than a problem anybody else has when they make a build and post it. You're preaching to the quire in this sense and thus your ideas are irrelevent. If Arren wants to take the chance that he could easily be taken out in PVP, that's his choice and anybody else's who follows it.

After all, these skills you speak of that threaten his build... how are you exactly sure that you will see these skills in pvp when useing this particular build? I rarely see any IWAYs in GVG so I don't see eviscerate being a big problem... hmmm.


Evasion, blocking, kiting will be used against you.

You contradict yourself. You already mentioned it's impossible to have the perfect build. Mainly because you truely do not know what build your opponent is running until you face off with them. So tell me, what build does not have to fear from these common skills in certain PVP instances?


Instead of makeing uber builds with major DPS for braging rights, try makeing builds with buert DPS that can actually get those DPS off.

What I see here is a guy is trying to have fun with creating a build to try out. He knows the risk involved because he has little to no experience with useing it in actual PVP combat. Either way, the person I see here complaining (you) is perhaps a jealous person who is either afraid that Arren's build may be popular or you're just mad because you don't like seeing others be happy with haveing fun. Whatever your reason is, you're not doing to well.

Yes, a balanced build is nice. You will last longer with it. The problem is, an assassin is not a warrior which you compare it with. So, turning your assassin into a warrior/monk is impossible. Not to mention that their armor is not equal to that of a warrior. Infact, assassins are rangers only in a melee sense that can deal hexes. So staying alive with a balanced build, alone can be a problem if you encounter an ele.


And next time don't get mad when someone points out that your build looks great on paper but just gets squashed in a real battle.

Again, name a build that doesn't have the same problem. There is no such thing as the "perfect" build. Thus, one build is always going to have this problem with another. You contradict yourself, yet again.

Maximus Bellator
10-04-2006, 14:42
Blind = 0 dps

Gangrel
10-04-2006, 15:05
Again, you miss the point. First of all, by switching out skills like you request in order to better his survival then it's not really his build anymore. Nor is it the build he intended it to be. That's like a revamp. He is takeing the risk, anybody can tell just by the skills he uses, that he could easily be overwelmed in pvp. I can't imagine any person in the entire game that creates a build, thinks other wise. There is a possibility that any build can be taken advantage of.


He likes the build, ok no problem. He wants to play that way, no problem. But that's not an ultimate DPS Assasin build.. He is either makeing an Ultimate DPS assasin build, or a build he likes playing just for fun.




Then why are you being so hard pressed about his build? Surely spikers of all sorts have the same issue - no stances. Do you bother them about it as well?


What?? Necro spikers don't give a dman about spikers. 4 spikers can easily take a gouy out even when he uses a stance. And if the orders necro (or mezmer) uses a finishing shadow strike or something like that, then stances don't make any difference. But that's a different story, since we are not talking about spikers, but about Ultimate DPS assasins.





There are no rules that state that Arren MUST follow a balanced build for all his character. Thus, he has every right to not only present his build but use it in combat. Reguardless if you or anybody else dislikes it or finds it easily exploitable. I mean, lets be honest. For any meleer the best way to frustrate and take them down is to blind. Simple as that. Ele comes by, blinds an assassin, and nukes. What will the assassin do? Well if he happens to have warrior's cunning or some other form of it, then perhaps he can get close. If he doesn't, then he's just going to run away.


The problem you present to the table is no different than a problem anybody else has when they make a build and post it. You're preaching to the quire in this sense and thus your ideas are irrelevent. If Arren wants to take the chance that he could easily be taken out in PVP, that's his choice and anybody else's who follows it.


Sure he has a right to come here, post the build and say it wons. He can even play it when factions comes out and noone has the right to tell him not to. But I also have a right to come here, read his thread and say that his build isn't good. Negative opiions also can be presented on this forum. I don't like it and I have a right not to. Being blinded isn't the problem of this build. Thats a problem for all melle classes + rangers.




After all, these skills you speak of that threaten his build... how are you exactly sure that you will see these skills in pvp when useing this particular build? I rarely see any IWAYs in GVG so I don't see eviscerate being a big problem... hmmm.


What? Sorry but that didn't, make sense.. You don't see too much iway so evis isn't a problem?? What does that have to do with blocking/evasion?? You don't see too many wards in PvP or monks using aegis/guardian?? Nope sorry i didn't get that one.



You contradict yourself. You already mentioned it's impossible to have the perfect build. Mainly because you truely do not know what build your opponent is running until you face off with them. So tell me, what build does not have to fear from these common skills in certain PVP instances?


Yup you can't put into 1 build skills that will go through evasion/blocking, blindness and hexes. But that doesn't mean you can't try... You know what makes a good build? The abbility to go through the opposite defenses. 8 eles can just wand the target to death if he doesn't do anything to stop them. But that doesn't make wanding a solid tactic, does it?? A good build should have some way of asuring that it will do it's job. Like AP, to prevent stacking armour spells, something to go thorugh evasion/blocking and so on.




What I see here is a guy is trying to have fun with creating a build to try out. He knows the risk involved because he has little to no experience with useing it in actual PVP combat. Either way, the person I see here complaining (you) is perhaps a jealous person who is either afraid that Arren's build may be popular or you're just mad because you don't like seeing others be happy with haveing fun. Whatever your reason is, you're not doing to well.


Umm yeah... You really want mo to respond to this kind of stupid comment?? I don't want him to feel happy, you got me there.... LOL...



Yes, a balanced build is nice. You will last longer with it. The problem is, an assassin is not a warrior which you compare it with. So, turning your assassin into a warrior/monk is impossible. Not to mention that their armor is not equal to that of a warrior. Infact, assassins are rangers only in a melee sense that can deal hexes. So staying alive with a balanced build, alone can be a problem if you encounter an ele.


He said i shouldn't come back without posting a build. Well i posted one. I don't care if anyone thinks that build is good. My build shows that you can combine DPS and soem form od going through armour, evasion, blocking and hexes/conditions. It's not perfect, it has it's problems, and would work better if some skills were used my anothr teammate. But we are talking about an Ultimate DPS assasin here.



Again, name a build that doesn't have the same problem. There is no such thing as the "perfect" build. Thus, one build is always going to have this problem with another. You contradict yourself, yet again.


As I said, you can't make a perfect build, but you sure can try. That build was supposed to be a build that can dish out the most DPS. It does - to a target dummy or someone who is AFK... He used all that math and showed us a number that will never exist. If he snares the target, he will still have to chase him, and that will negate the bonus he gets from Frenzy. He will attack (the animation of attack starts) but before the attack hits, the target will move away. So after the attack he will have to run up to him (stop attackin), and start the attack once more.

He is adding number with fractions to each other and showing how well they look. The game doesn't use fractions when doing damage. So a hit for 35,37 will be a hit for 37 or for 38 (depends how the game uses those values). So if you try to sum up 35,37 + 23,45 +12,81 you will not get 71,63. You will get either 70, 71 or even 73... Sure it doesn't look like much, but that is hit per second. If he will be hitting for 10 seconds, the difference will add up.

Any form of defense will just change his DPS and it will no longer look so nice. You just can't calculate such things on paper and expect it to work the same wway in game. Unless you are hitting a practice dummy... Sure you can argue all day how this build is good and what uber DPS it has, but you will never see them ingame.

Another reason why is that a 75% chance doesn't mean you will hit someone 3 times out of 4. It means, than on every idividual hit you have a 75% chance of hitting. The game doesn't check if you missed last time, and won't give you 100% chance on the next swing.. If the RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR has a bad day you can be missing 10 times in a row with a 75% chance to hit.. You just can't calculate such things..

The ultimate DPS number he came up with DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING!!! And if you expect to be hitting for that much each second ( yeah I know those are summed up hits, and not single hits doing that much) you are seriously wrong.

On paper it looks great, he is right and his calculations are correct. But you just can't put those calculations into the game and expect to get the same results..

ContactCombat
10-04-2006, 16:18
Hmmm...I want to make sure I'm reading this right.

There exists a forum that caters to a community that enjoys discussing the theoretical possibilities of the yet unreleased Assassin Profession. This forum is for Assassins, about Assassins, and populated by those that appreciated Assassins.

Someone posts a very sound theoretical build (which is all we have, since Factions isn't released)...and in walks in a critic.

This critic has no interest in contributing constructive criticism, adding positive commentary, or even suggesting possible modification.

Oh no...this critic comes to the Assassin Forum, which is populated by Assassin fans that enjoy creating theoretical Assassin Builds...and backs up his arguments by posting a Warrior/Monk Build.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

"Your pencil is obsolete! To back up my claim, I present my banana to prove how ineffective your pencil is!"

Dude, you are in the Assassin Forum. Why don't you participate in some theory craft to back up your criticisms and post an ASSASSIN build that covers the territory you see missed?

Otherwise, how are we supposed to take your criticisms seriously?

Gangrel
10-04-2006, 16:47
Have you really not understood a word of what is going on for a couple of posts? Comprehension FTW?

Arredondo posted a build. I said that the build isn't effective and that he will never get the DPS he aimed for. He then took an insult and told me to post a build that would get the DPS through, or not come back to this forum. I did so and later produced some arguments why his calculation, although correct, will never get the desired effect.

It doesn't matter if this is the assasin forum or ritualist or any other class. We are not playint theory wars. Sure you can't test the builds yet, and some skills aren't in their final version but that doesn't matter. Everyone that comes to this forum, reads his calculations and goes "Wow now that's a build that can do ~80 damage per second!!" is tottaly wrong.

Why try to add modifications if his calculations are correct? He is right - on paper. But wehn he tries to do the same thing in the game, it just won't work that way.

And how am I suppose to take your criticism? Anything constructive in it?? Why don't you try to prove me wrong instead of arguing about irrelevant points?

ContactCombat
10-04-2006, 19:24
Read:

http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm

Pay particular note to this section:


The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves:

What really prompted you to come to this forum, read a popular thread, then say, "You build is terrible and will never work"?

Lots of people picked apart the math and added corrections, others pointed out potential weaknesses...but no one else came in with the same harsh, offensive tone that you did.


– Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.

You didn't simply say, "Wow, that build looks great. I wonder how well it would do in real combat. In what ways would you counter <insert scenario> with your build? How could we minimize this type of threat?"

Your tone was degrading and offensive, and now you wonder why we are giving you a hard time?


– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers

Mind this one in particular.

You would have to be EXTREMELY daft to not realize the inherent flaws in ANY build.

Duh.

We get it.

You basically pointed out the obvious, a basic flaw in EVERY theoretical build that hasn't been playtested...yet you wanted to flaunt it as if you had suddenly broken the Da Vinci Code.

We get it.


– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. Pursued by Troll Bashers (see Natural Predators below), the Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice – all the while continuing to respond to them.

I would apologize if I had made a comment that, after further reading, seemed a bit harsh and unnecessary...ESPECIALLY if a number of forum posters felt the need to respond to the "offensive" post that I made.

This shows a genuine interest in what is going on. Getting defensive and snippy really doesn't accomplish anything other than...well...causing people to get defensive and snippy.

Finally,


– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Six: One distinctive mark of Contrarian Trolls is that every thread in which they dissent quickly devolves into a debate about who is trolling whom. In the course of such a debate the Contrarian will display many of the other Warning Signs mentioned above.

Already a page has been devoted to arguing with you.

Can the madness stop already?

In order to keep things on track, why don't you make some suggestions?

Maybe dump Twisting Fangs to add a stance breaker...or suggest taking a Necro secondary to add Plague Touch for all those nasty conditions that can upset this build.

Gangrel
10-04-2006, 21:15
So you took a thread out of another forum to prove I am a troll.. Wow now thats a constructive post to add to this thread. I won't try to prove you wrong because I really don't care... You think I am a troll? Ok be that way. but posting such a long post in which only 2 lines are kinda constructive isn't better.

And still you do not understand what Iam saying. What part of "Those calculations DON'T WORK IN GAME" don't you udnerstand??

he laready added a stance breaker, and plague touch would be some wway of getting rid of conditions. But blind will get you any way, and the main concerne is evasion blocking.

But again that is not the main problem. Those calculated DPS need the target to be stationary (if he starts running, even with cripple on him, the DPS will sink..), and no kind ofe defensive action may be taken. And again he needs to be lucky, or in other words, those calculated % need to hit the exact amount of times (if its 75% that means he needs to hit 75 times out of 100). And that is just not possible in game. Noone will be just standing there and takeing hits, unless he is AFK..

You want a sudgestion? Don't waste time calculating things that have no real use. The number of DPS says nothing. Now you understand what I am saying?? The caluclated DPS is correct on paper but has no relation to the ingame mechanics..

shaktiboi
10-04-2006, 21:44
But again that is not the main problem. Those calculated DPS need the target to be stationary (if he starts running, even with cripple on him, the DPS will sink..), and no kind ofe defensive action may be taken. And again he needs to be lucky, or in other words, those calculated % need to hit the exact amount of times (if its 75% that means he needs to hit 75 times out of 100). And that is just not possible in game. Noone will be just standing there and takeing hits, unless he is AFK..

You want a sudgestion? Don't waste time calculating things that have no real use. The number of DPS says nothing. Now you understand what I am saying?? The caluclated DPS is correct on paper but has no relation to the ingame mechanics..

So this is the crux of your argument againt the poster's theoretical build? Then your logic is flawed. Applying correct logic:

If (A) all builds are composed of ideal attack chains and X amount of anticipated DPS when the ideal attack chain can be delivered, and if (B) No build ever performs perfectly in PvP because all manner of counter-tactics can prevent you from getting off your ideal attack chain with perfect execution, then (C) the only basis on which to compare two builds is by comparing the DPS and/or spike potential of the ideal attack chain, assuming perfect conditions.

Which is exactly what everyone was doing before you came along. If you want to argue whether or not the OP's build has merit or flaws in his assumptions/calculations, at least try to ensure that you are doing so with logic, if not some courtesy as well.

shaktiboi
10-04-2006, 21:55
OK kids, it seems we were not generous enough with our Critical hit calculations. Instead of merely moving numbers around, I actually conducted an experiment...

- Build a WaNe for Nameless Isle dummy practice
- All you need with you is Wild Blow (100% chance of Critical hit), Weaken Armor (-20% armor to melee), one Axe w/+15% damage >50% health, and one Axe w/+20% damage <50% health.
-Put 12 in Curses, put Axe Mastery on your helmet with Sup. Axe rune (+3+1)
- Set your Axe points at the lowest.

- Go to the 60 AL dummy
- Take off the helmet to be at Axe Mastery=0 (or take my word for it's damage value)
- Use Wild Blow for 3 damage
- You can increase your Atts by one step (put helmet back on) to learn the exact Critical amount for each attack level.
- All maxed PvP weapons increase damage dramatically at L9. Here are the values I recorded for different weapons levels 9-16:



I also used the storage bin to test my plain old 10-18 L6 sword that was NOT customized or had any other bonus mods:



As you can see, the scaling is different before 12 and slows down after. Playing with the numbers I can see that L12 Critical hit amount is indeed the max weapon damage x1.4142 for all of them. This however is not enough to find out how much a Critical does at L16. It looks as if multiplying L12's value by 1.14 will give you a close idea about how much the highest Critical damage is for a weapon (barring +1 Attribute 20% mod or similar spells for Necro and Ele).

As an aside, when I cast Necro's Weaken armor on an enemy, it did tremendous damage as expected. A L16 Hammer getting a Critical from Wild Blow vs. a WA hexed target (60 AL) did 111 damage. :tongue:. For comparison, the damage is 78 without the hex, or roughly 41% less as exepected.

So I tested this as a way of comparing numbers for L16 Criticals... it looks to hold up:

Weapon's max damage x (20% custom damage and 15% mod damage) x -20 AL x L16 bonus damage

*** in number form for Daggers ***

17 x 1.38 x 1.4142 x 1.14= 37.82 per Critical hit in my build.

I can now recalculate, but I discovered that my last equations incorrectly double counted the .57 rate. That caused a huge jump in the totals, which I also fix here:

++++++++

- Base damage = 12 (7 to 17 possible)

- 38% dual mod total = 16.56 average damage every 1.33s without factoring in Crits, DPS, or double strikes

- Critical damage is 17x. 1.4142x 1.38x 1.14 = 37.82 damage each crit

- The adjusted speed under Locuts' Fury, Frenzy, and L16 Dagger Mastery is .57 and the chance at a Crit is 29%. So...

([16.56x .71] + [37.82x .29]) / 0.57 )=
(11.76+10.97)= 22.73 per .57 seconds.
That becomes 39.87 DPS (22.73/.57)

- Shadowy Burden penalty adds 41.42% damage
39.87x 1.4142= 56.39 dps

- Add Vamp's 5.26 per second to get....

61.65 max DPS

That's the same DPS from the first post! :laugh: It was done a different way and without the Vamp mod, so it's only a coincidence. So it isn't as high as I thought it'd be, but it is still very good. 8 seconds of attacking them under SB will still get a kill before you factor in the BMS combo. And now it seems that you can get double strikes from skills as well.

LF->SB->Frenzy->2-4 melee attacks->BMS combo--> clean up the mess on your way out. I'm pleased with the results.


For any who hasn't been following the outcome of these observed numbers by Arredondo over on the Dagger FAQ v2 thread, I'd like to recap here that the numbers Arredondo posted here as a result of his tests are all supported by SonOfRah's total damage formula.

The much lower value of crits below rank 9 in mastery is due to not meeting the level 9 reqs of the weapon you're using. This is described fully in SonOfRah's damage essay.

The additional 1.14 increase in damage at rank 16 (compared to rank 12) is simply a result of the increased Baseline value of 68 at rank 16 (versus 60 at rank 12). This effect is also fully described in SonOfRah's damage essay.

arredondo
10-04-2006, 22:12
Ahhh. then I merely misunderstood what that L68 number represented. I had to come up with 1.14 on my own since I couldn't find it, but I guess I needed to translate that extra +2 per rank text into decimals to get the final answer. Thanks.

BTW, there is still one last error in my last calculation:
[16.56x .71] should read [18.87x.71] to account for the 14% damage increase from L16 DM stats on normal blows with my modded Knives.

The equations thereafter change a bit for this result:

FINAL BASIC MELEE DPS AVERAGE: 65.73

This does NOT include the big combo damage from BMS->JS->TF; just basic melee swinging with all the key skills in place (LF, SB, and Frenzy).

Also keep in mind that this is simply the max average output in ideal circumstances. No one can possibly believe that this figure is what a player will get for every second of every fight. If a player you've hexed with SB is KD'd by a teammate and you are there with your enchant and stance on, you are getting max output. If an enemy is in the middle of a 3 second cast (i.e. Rez) when you hit the Frenzy button and start wailing, you are getting max output. Pin someone near a corner and you're gettng max output.

Enemy armour, damage mitigation enchants/stances, debuffs on this build, enchant/hex/condition removals, interruptions, energy drain/denial, added skill recharges (Diversion, Distracting Shot), being pounded on by 6-7 other enemies etc. are all things that take it down from peak efficiency. Being expected to spell that out everytime I put up a build feels like holding a grown man's hand to help him cross the street.

WE KNOW you can't maintain top output at all time for ANY build! But if you compare the melee output I have here with this Assassin primary build, you'd be hard pressed to do significantly more damage from regular attacks in another Assassin setup. Several of the common gimps to this build merely bring the damage down closer to what's normal for other Assassin's when they don't factor in attack skills. The damage with L16 Dagger Mastery without any skills used at all is 24.37 DPS, so it'll take a lot of debuffing on me to bring me down to complete basic damage.... heh, I thought Mesmers and Monks were top target priority (j/k).

Thanks for eveyone's input and patience. Now all I need is to play it in-game to see what happens.

shaktiboi
10-04-2006, 23:08
Good stuff. I like to look at it this way: Every second, you are putting out more damage than an axe user puts out on a single crit. That's pretty sweet damage.

arredondo
10-04-2006, 23:59
War/Mo (laugh all you can)

Strengh
smiting
axes

Primal rage*
Signet of strengh
Strengh of honor
Warriors cunning
Purge signet
Judges Insight
IWAY (yup laugh it up again)
Rez sig.

Well, what do we have here… a build in need of an evaluation? Allow me:

[constructive criticism on]
As a player that loves to maximize a particular focus of a build when possible, I like what you’re trying to do with the new Warrior elite, Primal Rage:


Primal Rage (stance)
For 10 seconds, all of your attacks have an addition 10...46% chance of being critical hits and have 20% armor penetration. Primal Rage disables all skills for 10 seconds.

10E, 0 cast, 15 sec. recharge

This seems to be a VERY intriguing elite. You didn’t post your stats so I imagine that your Axe Mastery is at least 15, which leaves room for 11 Strength and 10 Smite… correct me if I’m wrong. These stats, along with all your build's skills, give you about a 60% chance to get a critical hit from your attacks besides the -40% total AP and the armor ignoring Holy damage. Nice!

You add even more evilness to this skill by stacking Signet of Strength for an extra +5 damage per hit for about 12s, and the enchant Strength of Honor for +10 damage as long as you “maintain” the enchant. You then round it off with the 20% armor penetration from Judge’s Insight.

To help you ensure contact on the enemy you chose to bring Warrior’s Cunning, preventing evades or blocks for 10 seconds. Unfortunately this skill is a stance like Primal Rage so the two can never both be up simultaneously, reducing your overall DPS goals. That’s too bad because I can see your melee damage spiking pretty high with everything up and running.

Still, you may give thought to adding a snare, a speed boost, or a knock-down skill if you can since a runner will cause you extra grief just as you turn on all your special skills. Your recharges are pretty high so you don’t want to waste a second of their activation time.

For self-preservation you chose IWAY (+7 regen, +25% attack speed buff) and Purge Signet. IWAY seems to fit perfectly in this build, but it means you can’t maximize your DPS or health recovery until some ally dies (or some allied pet). You may want to hang back from the thick of the action unless you have Monk/Ritual support to repair any damage.

Purge Signet is an…. interesting choice. I love that it takes away all hexes and conditions, but with a 3s cast time and a -10E penalty for each instance of removal, it’ll really be open to interrupts since you’re in the middle of battle and your mana will constantly be drained. If you don’t choose another skill, maybe you should only use it in the worst of emergencies to not tax your build all throughout the fight.

Energy management may become an issue I’m afraid. The Warriors are already penalized with +2E regen… with SoH you’re now at +1E regen. Heh, it’ll take 30 seconds to earn enough energy to spend on JI alone if you’ve used it all (i.e. from Purge Signet), let alone the other energy skills in your build. You have no means at gaining mana quickly, so in longer fights expect this issue to come up and slow you down a bit.

Overall, the basic idea is nice and there may be ways to address some of the points I brought up. Keep working at it and I’m sure the final build will be top notch. :thumbsup:
[/constructive criticism off]


OK, let me try again from another angle that may be more familiar to you:


[troll mode on]
PLEASE tell me this build was meant as a joke? What did you do, put the name of every WaMo skill in a bag, shake it up and pull out seven at random and called it a day? You don’t even have any Attribute Points! What kind of PvP player goes into battle with no Att. Points? The King of Random Builds needs some serious help here.

First of all, with all your fancy DPS spike skills, answer me one question…. how do you plan to hit anything? Some enemies use evasion, some use blocking. Some will try to disenchant you, others will hex you. The ONE defense that EVERYONE will do is run away! Obviously your idea looked good on paper, but if you can’t do anything about the most basic defense in the game, the whole thing is worthless. Absolutely worthless.

Next up are your stances (Primal Rage, Warrior’s Cunning). Don’t tell me you didn’t know that you can’t have two stances on at once! What is your character, ambidextrous? Back in the REAL WORLD we only use one stance at a time in GW, which means you’ve self-gutted your awesome DPS dreams before you stepped out onto the playing field. Too funny... I think I’ll print this build and post it on my wall to cheer me up on a rainy day.

And I see that you’ve decided to bring Strength of Honor in, dropping your energy regen rate in half. But who am I? Certainly your plan to fuel 40E worth of skills earning .33E a second is beyond my ability to comprehend. You obviously know best so no further comment needed.

Now how about we look at your recharge times. 45s for SoS, 45s for IWAY, and 60s for WC? Are you kidding me? Some of these skills last for no more than 10s and you have THREE? Bwahahahahahaha! Along with your mana regen rate, this shouldn’t be posted in the ‘Warrior Builds’ forum, it should be posted in the “Builds that allow you time to go to the Toilet” forum. Oh man <pant>, I’m almost crying reading this, I’m laughing so hard. :laughing:

Finally your choice of “protection”. IWAY is a pretty good skill as many of us know. Many of us also know that it works best when you bring a pet. No surprise that we don’t see any of those here. That means that unless you figure out a way to kill one of your buddies, don’t expect to see that +25% attack speed boost anytime soon, let alone the health regen. Just make sure you don’t kill your Monk when you do it as he is the only one keeping your butt alive when everyone but you is healthy.

Purge Signet. You actually think removing one instance of Blinding Flash and Shadow of Fear spamming at you every 5 seconds is worth a three second cast time, a 20 second recharge time, and a loss of -10E every time PS takes something away? You’ll have no energy left and be Hexed/Conditioned again before the signet is half recharged! The sad thing is, this was probably the best aspect of this build :huh: .

There you are... no energy, half of your skills recharging for eons, no healing, awful mana regen, stances conflicting, waiting for Purge Signet to finish casting, and up ahead you see yor primary key target is running away, butt naked with barely 10AL on just to prove to you that you can't touch him. All that's left is for the opposing team to spam cast their Point'n Laugh signet at you and down you go.

So in summary my recommendation to you is to start from square -1. Ask for help so someone can get you to square zero, and THEN figure out how to make it to square one with the rest of us. 8v8, GvG, RA, TA… this build has no chance to succeed against any competition, and you have a 75% chance of failure if you go in alone to fight yourself.

BTW, if this build was intended for Ascalon Pre-Sear PvE, ignore everything I said. Awesome build, but you may want to be ready to stop those L3 kiting bunny rabbits before they get away.
[/troll mode off]

Now tell me, which version do you prefer?

Gangrel
11-04-2006, 16:03
So this is the crux of your argument againt the poster's theoretical build? Then your logic is flawed. Applying correct logic:

If (A) all builds are composed of ideal attack chains and X amount of anticipated DPS when the ideal attack chain can be delivered, and if (B) No build ever performs perfectly in PvP because all manner of counter-tactics can prevent you from getting off your ideal attack chain with perfect execution, then (C) the only basis on which to compare two builds is by comparing the DPS and/or spike potential of the ideal attack chain, assuming perfect conditions.

Which is exactly what everyone was doing before you came along. If you want to argue whether or not the OP's build has merit or flaws in his assumptions/calculations, at least try to ensure that you are doing so with logic, if not some courtesy as well.

Compareing this build to what?? You were calculating ultimate DPS and came up with a number. You can't compare 2 builds if they work differently (like one uses armour penetration to deliver damage more effectively, and the other has skills that do extra damage on block/evasion) since they need a different situation to work in (stances being used by the target, higher, lower armour lvls..). You can only try to calculate raw DPS when both builds use skills that deliver direct damage and the target isn't doinmg anything.

Compareing something on a basis that is impossible to achieve is kinda pointless isn't it?




Well, what do we have here… a build in need of an evaluation? Allow me:

[constructive criticism on]
As a player that loves to maximize a particular focus of a build when possible, I like what you’re trying to do with the new Warrior elite, Primal Rage:



This seems to be a VERY intriguing elite. You didn’t post your stats so I imagine that your Axe Mastery is at least 15, which leaves room for 11 Strength and 10 Smite… correct me if I’m wrong. These stats, along with all your build's skills, give you about a 60% chance to get a critical hit from your attacks besides the -40% total AP and the armor ignoring Holy damage. Nice!

You add even more evilness to this skill by stacking Signet of Strength for an extra +5 damage per hit for about 12s, and the enchant Strength of Honor for +10 damage as long as you “maintain” the enchant. You then round it off with the 20% armor penetration from Judge’s Insight.

To help you ensure contact on the enemy you chose to bring Warrior’s Cunning, preventing evades or blocks for 10 seconds. Unfortunately this skill is a stance like Primal Rage so the two can never both be up simultaneously, reducing your overall DPS goals. That’s too bad because I can see your melee damage spiking pretty high with everything up and running.

Still, you may give thought to adding a snare, a speed boost, or a knock-down skill if you can since a runner will cause you extra grief just as you turn on all your special skills. Your recharges are pretty high so you don’t want to waste a second of their activation time.

For self-preservation you chose IWAY (+7 regen, +25% attack speed buff) and Purge Signet. IWAY seems to fit perfectly in this build, but it means you can’t maximize your DPS or health recovery until some ally dies (or some allied pet). You may want to hang back from the thick of the action unless you have Monk/Ritual support to repair any damage.

Purge Signet is an…. interesting choice. I love that it takes away all hexes and conditions, but with a 3s cast time and a -10E penalty for each instance of removal, it’ll really be open to interrupts since you’re in the middle of battle and your mana will constantly be drained. If you don’t choose another skill, maybe you should only use it in the worst of emergencies to not tax your build all throughout the fight.

Energy management may become an issue I’m afraid. The Warriors are already penalized with +2E regen… with SoH you’re now at +1E regen. Heh, it’ll take 30 seconds to earn enough energy to spend on JI alone if you’ve used it all (i.e. from Purge Signet), let alone the other energy skills in your build. You have no means at gaining mana quickly, so in longer fights expect this issue to come up and slow you down a bit.

Overall, the basic idea is nice and there may be ways to address some of the points I brought up. Keep working at it and I’m sure the final build will be top notch. :thumbsup:
[/constructive criticism off]


OK, let me try again from another angle that may be more familiar to you:


[troll mode on]
PLEASE tell me this build was meant as a joke? What did you do, put the name of every WaMo skill in a bag, shake it up and pull out seven at random and called it a day? You don’t even have any Attribute Points! What kind of PvP player goes into battle with no Att. Points? The King of Random Builds needs some serious help here.

First of all, with all your fancy DPS spike skills, answer me one question…. how do you plan to hit anything? Some enemies use evasion, some use blocking. Some will try to disenchant you, others will hex you. The ONE defense that EVERYONE will do is run away! Obviously your idea looked good on paper, but if you can’t do anything about the most basic defense in the game, the whole thing is worthless. Absolutely worthless.

Next up are your stances (Primal Rage, Warrior’s Cunning). Don’t tell me you didn’t know that you can’t have two stances on at once! What is your character, ambidextrous? Back in the REAL WORLD we only use one stance at a time in GW, which means you’ve self-gutted your awesome DPS dreams before you stepped out onto the playing field. Too funny... I think I’ll print this build and post it on my wall to cheer me up on a rainy day.

And I see that you’ve decided to bring Strength of Honor in, dropping your energy regen rate in half. But who am I? Certainly your plan to fuel 40E worth of skills earning .33E a second is beyond my ability to comprehend. You obviously know best so no further comment needed.

Now how about we look at your recharge times. 45s for SoS, 45s for IWAY, and 60s for WC? Are you kidding me? Some of these skills last for no more than 10s and you have THREE? Bwahahahahahaha! Along with your mana regen rate, this shouldn’t be posted in the ‘Warrior Builds’ forum, it should be posted in the “Builds that allow you time to go to the Toilet” forum. Oh man <pant>, I’m almost crying reading this, I’m laughing so hard. :laughing:

Finally your choice of “protection”. IWAY is a pretty good skill as many of us know. Many of us also know that it works best when you bring a pet. No surprise that we don’t see any of those here. That means that unless you figure out a way to kill one of your buddies, don’t expect to see that +25% attack speed boost anytime soon, let alone the health regen. Just make sure you don’t kill your Monk when you do it as he is the only one keeping your butt alive when everyone but you is healthy.

Purge Signet. You actually think removing one instance of Blinding Flash and Shadow of Fear spamming at you every 5 seconds is worth a three second cast time, a 20 second recharge time, and a loss of -10E every time PS takes something away? You’ll have no energy left and be Hexed/Conditioned again before the signet is half recharged! The sad thing is, this was probably the best aspect of this build :huh: .

There you are... no energy, half of your skills recharging for eons, no healing, awful mana regen, stances conflicting, waiting for Purge Signet to finish casting, and up ahead you see yor primary key target is running away, butt naked with barely 10AL on just to prove to you that you can't touch him. All that's left is for the opposing team to spam cast their Point'n Laugh signet at you and down you go.

So in summary my recommendation to you is to start from square -1. Ask for help so someone can get you to square zero, and THEN figure out how to make it to square one with the rest of us. 8v8, GvG, RA, TA… this build has no chance to succeed against any competition, and you have a 75% chance of failure if you go in alone to fight yourself.

BTW, if this build was intended for Ascalon Pre-Sear PvE, ignore everything I said. Awesome build, but you may want to be ready to stop those L3 kiting bunny rabbits before they get away.
[/troll mode off]

Now tell me, which version do you prefer?


Ok I can see you took my comment personaly. I did not mean to flame you or your build. The point of it was not to show you that "you suck" or that "your build sucks". I ahve reread my post And I am sure I didn't use anything offensive in it. You probably took the "paper king comment" as a way to flame/troll/offend. It wasn't. It was a way to tell you that your builds look great on paper and are well thought out, and calculated - on paper. I have read a few (not all) of your build proposals and neither looked like it came "from playing it". That comment was in no way offensive and I am very sorry if you took it that way.

The answer to "which version I prefer i obvious" and I don't think I used the "troll" way in my first post. It wasn't the "construcitve" way either, but it was in no way flaming. Poinitng out obvious mistakes in the build was constructive. I didn't give examples on how to fix them because I haven't played assasins too much during the beta and I missed most skills. But from what I have played with them those things seemed obvous. And your build was lacking in those areas.


The build I posted wasn't an exact build. You wanted me to post one, so I took the build I was thinking about in the last few days. The attributes aren't finished because I haven't put that much thought into. GWO listed Wr's cunning as a skill - that lead me into mistakenly putting it in. And as I said, SoH and JI might be better used on a smiting monk - that wouldnt put too much strain on the energy. A snare is a problem but I'd rather leave that to an ele. Not everything has to be in one build, especialy if you can get the same effect easily from a team member.

If you wish to discuss that build further I'm open for any ideas. I will test it as soon as I can (preordered factions but don't know if i'll start working on it as soon as the servers open) but I will leave the mathematical equations out because of the reasons I have posted above.

I still think that it's pointless to calculate DPS, because the number you came up with can only be achieved when the target isn't doing anything and you are hitting the target for an infinite amount of time (otherwise, you need to be just lucy to get the max out of the %). If you wish to continue to conitnue those calculation remember those few things I wrote earlier.

-GW rounds up/down numbers so when adding them, you need to do the same to get the most accurate number.
-When the target starts kiting, even with a snare, your DPS will drop. I am not sure if this is correct for every speed impairment, but the speed at which the target is running away from you might negate the bonus from frenzy completly (even with a snare on the target!!).
-stances, enchantments (on target), hexes (on you) are obvious. The numbers might even go into negative state (mark of protecion heals on every hit - DPS go into negative).
-Chance to hit, double strike, crit and so on. 75% chance isn't an auto hit/double strike/crit on 3 out of 4 tries. Each try is independent of the previous (and next) ones. Thinking that with a 75% chance you MUST hit is a mistake. You can miss 7 times in a row with a high hit chance, ebcause all of the numbers are random.

Without takeing that into account your caluclations are wrong in every aspect, except the paper aspect. Therefore the number you came up with can't be treated as the final and correct number of DPS this Ultimate DPS assasin will do.

Patccmoi
11-04-2006, 16:37
Hmm, afaik Warrior's Cunning IS a skill. Not a stance.

If it's a stance i'll actually be very happy because of the stance-recharging skills in faction, but i don't think it is.

For the Primal Rage build btw, i think you'd simply need to let others handle the damage boost on you. You can keep Signet of Strength, but just drop the smiting and go all-out Axe-Strength.

What i don't know is if the skill disabling locks your adrenal like Blackout does. If it does, i really don't like Primal Rage. Otherwise, you could consider adding Dismember-Axe Rake on your build instead of JI-Str of Honor.

This way, after every Primal Rage, you can do a DW-Cripple on your target, and go back at bashing on him. DW gives you 'spike' ability.

If it locks it, something like Bull's Strike would be great. Use it, and the instant the guy is KDed go into Primal Rage. Gives you a little time where he can't kite and where you can bash on him quite a bit.

arredondo
11-04-2006, 17:32
Ok I can see you took my comment personaly. I did not mean to flame you or your build. The point of it was not to show you that "you suck" or that "your build sucks". I ahve reread my post And I am sure I didn't use anything offensive in it. You probably took the "paper king comment" as a way to flame/troll/offend. It wasn't. It was a way to tell you that your builds look great on paper and are well thought out, and calculated - on paper. I have read a few (not all) of your build proposals and neither looked like it came "from playing it". That comment was in no way offensive and I am very sorry if you took it that way.


Heh, it's all a matter of degrees. My L8 "fake" flame vs. your L4 just means that everyone should express themselves with the adjectives toned down a bit altogether when possible. Let's comment back and forth at L0 instead, or L1 at most. :wink: Of course I honestly did not have that negative attitude when I read your build. And thx Pat for pointing out I was wrong on Warrior's Cunning.

I definitely think the build you posted has potential, and if anyone can ignore high recharges it's the Warrior class since they have consistent DPS without skills if need be. That way you can maximize your critical spikes whenever the opportunity is there.

Back to the issues you've brought up on my build, I think you're a bit confused about what we've been trying to do here (in this and other threads like shaktiboi's excellent Dagger FAQ). Trust me when I tell you that we are all well aware of everything and anything that cuts into the damage potential of this or any other offensive build. We don't comment on them because most of this is just understood. However it is important to discuss special needs, like Pat's point on Frenzy cancels. I have a theory about how to mitigate that problem, but I have to test it first.

Which is one thing that puzzles me - you know the game's not out but you seem to make a point to criticize the very act of posting theory... I can't test it or I would've before posting, so why is it an issue? I'm doing the best I can with what I have and people are helping. You are theorizing yourself with the unreleased Primal Rage elite and Sig of Strength. If we helped you map out the POTENTIAL max average DPS, don't you think it would be useful to know? BTW, we know decimals aren't used... it's an issue of being precise on the forums, that's all.

By getting a solid number for how much average damage a build can do in ideal circumstances, you have a better feel with how effective it can be in "general" circumstances. If I have a big sword that hits for an average of 90 and you have one that hits for an average of 10, we can use that info to say my big sword is dishing out more damage over time than your little one. Yes, the average number might not hit, even in ideal circumstances, but some people prefer to know what the optimal numbers are (on average) so they can mentally scale their true damage up or down to the situation they are in.

It can be noticibly lower, but it can also be noticibly HIGHER. I guess I can start posting this damage range of high and low output, but again it should be understood when we use the word AVERAGE damge output that it can go higher or lower. We're just trying to find the max damage output average possible in various build like this one.

It gets more complex when we factor in hexes, kiters, enchants, attack speed buffs, etc., but knowing what you can do when you are at your very best makes it easy to mentally scale down a build's effectiveness when you face Warrior armor, hex removals, Enfeeble casts, etc. in comparison to another Assassin build that is also subject to being gimped.

Just like your deference to a teammate (Water Ele) to snare a running target, why press me on kiting when I have two snares? That's one thing that this build does reasonably well but it keeps coming up. However, unlike you I don't have anti-evade/block, but maybe I defer to my teammates for disenchants (or choose another target). All of this is general stuff that we shouldn't have to explain in any and all builds, expecially if it is casually (or specifically in my case with snares) addressed.

I have 66 max average DPS. This tells me that if I am reduced by 40% of my normal damage output due to the enemy kiting while Crippled and having Guardian enchant on, I am near the average DPS of a typical Assassin using basic melee swings in ideal circumstances (i.e. no kiting from KD, no protective stances or enchants). This also means that if this "other" Assassin is trying to attack my target with me, his basic swings are ALSO gutted 40%, reducing him to a lot lower damage than me. See what's happening? You scale down from a target figure and you can still see positives in a less-than-optimum situation.

I play games in another genre where it is important for me to know what attacks are possible in fractions of a second. I continually map out my mental strategies instantly around facts such as I can execute my 1/8th of a second attack at 1/30th of a second faster than my enemy who will likely use an attack that takes 2/5th of a second to execute. Some players can just play well on pure instinct and experience. Just because you don't see the need for people being over-analytical, if you do well without it, then why bother us about it? Perhaps this process helps us with our game.

All I'm saying with the label "Ultimate DPS Assassin" is that if you make another Assassin build, it'll be hard to match the max potential this build has with normal melee swing damage. That's all. Other Assassin builds may be better overall in many different ways depending on what and how they do what they do, but if maximizing damage from Assassin melee attacks is what you are trying to do (like you did in maximizing Warrior critical hits), then the ideas here work pretty well, even if not 100% efficient all the time. No build is.

Raven Flameheart
11-04-2006, 18:43
Looks like a solid build to me. Vulnerable in a lot of ways (skills that cause misses, empathy, diversion), but almost all assassin builds are that way. so it can't be helped. Calling it the "ultimate" DPS build may have been a little arrogant, but it's up to you what you label it. A Warrior build doesn't really have place for comparison here - I could make a build who's melee DPS outweighs this build, but it wouldn't fit here.

As for the Paper vs Play build creation methods, I think you need a bit of both. All play and no plan means you don't see the big picture of all the skills that are out there, and you don't get much starting creativity. All plan and no play, and it's likely the build will be impractical. When Factions is released, either we'll see a revised version of this build, some evidence that it really does work well, or it to be found a total failure. I expect the former.

Gangrel
11-04-2006, 20:20
I don't like theory :) I'd rahter see everything in practice than "waste time" writing it all down and calculating :)

And compareing 2 builds isn't that easy. You can't just take build A DPS and match it with build B DPS to see which one is better.

Example:
Build A has a caluclated (using your method of calculation) DPS of 53.44
Build B has a DPS of 45.68

Now Build A is superiour, right?

Ok now let's add a bit more info. Build B has a built in way to go through blocking that adds damage on every blocked attack bumping the DPS to 65.3 with a block rate of 75% on the target.

Hmm now which build is better?

Let's go even further.

Build A has a way to cripple the target to 10% movement (is slowed down by 90%) while build B has only 75% cripple. The slowdown from build A is huge, and almost negates kiting.

But build B has a natural defence agains hexes (at least 1 hex negated every 15 seconds). Which one is better?

hard to say and everyting depends on the situation. Calculating raw DPS can be good if you are trying to compare 2 classes (as posted in the dagger FAQ) . You can see which class has the best natural DPS (no skills/defences/kitting to go against it).

But when you are trying to make a build you need to take all of that into account. How will my build do when i encounter some problems.

Unfortunately this thread has gone a bit astray because of my post and a few people trying to defend what has not been attacked.

In my opinion (lets not argue about opinions shall we?) calculating raw DPS and not takeing at least some of the defenses into account will give you a false number.

By all means go ahead and theorize about those DPS but IN MY OPINION it is just a waste of time.

I know you can't test the build yet. Theres no cure for that, we can only wait. So yu are free to play those Theory Wars :P But when factions comes out it's better to put the build to test, even with unfinished attributes, and skills that you are not shure will work. You will see a lot faster if they do or not. And you will also see whats the biggest threat to this build.

Practise cuts down on theorizing. You see the mistakes a lot faster. You can even go through 3-4 sets of skills in an hour of playing time, and come out with "the best setup" at the end. And then count the DPS with all defesive stuff in mind.

Nanashi
12-04-2006, 08:35
And compareing 2 builds isn't that easy. You can't just take build A DPS and match it with build B DPS to see which one is better.

Actually, it is easy. You determin the over all DPS in the match and decide who has given the most ammount of DPS during a session. The Ultimate DPS build will usually consist of the lowest downtime but some destructive hits too. Downtime would be the main factor since it determins how long one must wait before continueing it's turn. A build with less ammount of downtime could beat another build with more do to the fewer ammounts of stops it may take.

There was a similiar system built for deciefering the ammount of DPS per class in EQ. I'm not big on the math on these games since I play to have fun and not do my home work. But it's not hard to determin which one would have more DPS reguardless of how different they are. Of corse, it would take many different tests on each build since different factors could come into play (IE: blinds, lag, and armor.) But since armor is practicly the same for each seperate class, it shouldn't be to hard to find out.


The problem people are haveing here Gang is you're stateing the obvious. We all know that each build will have one or more weaknesses towards others. Through these weaknesses another class or the same class can exploit and crush the build. What Arren is probably doing is determining the most dmg you can deal before falling into these key factors. It may work or it may not. You're right that it does take real instances to decide if it's dependable... but I don't see you running around other builds in the assassin and/or ritualist forums and telling them the obvious as well.

Not to mention you did come up with a build that was not exactly proper. We're talking about assassin DPS in short, you supplied a warrior; with a monk secondary at that. However good your build maybe, you're not giving a good idea at how Arren could better his own build; which other people have been doing thus far.

Gangrel
12-04-2006, 15:48
Ok Nanashi, if it's that easy to decide which build is betetr then answer the question i Have asked in My post above. Which build is better. Build A or Build B. You have the base DPS, and some modified DPS and also a few other tricks that the builds can do. It should be obvious then, right?

arredondo
12-04-2006, 16:12
With that question you miss the point... the only comparison I have is against any Assassin primary build that could achieve more basic melee DPS in an optimal situation (ignoring damage from skills). It isn't a comparison of which build overall would be "better" and I said that earlier. By titling it "Ultimate" DPS Assassin Build, I wasn't trying to say it is better than any other build past, present, or future - just that it achieves the 'ultimate' amount of basic melee DPS when the conditions are right. We all know that conditions are rarely perfect, but even when you are forced to output less DPS, you still can get pretty good damage compared to another Assassin build's basic melee DPS - calculations made with adjustments make that obvious. However the other build can easily do many other things better, so no total quality comparison overall is being made between any two builds. Ever.

If I titled it 'Maximum' DPS Assassin, perhaps it wouldn't have bothered you as much, but I called my other one 'Ultimate Critical Assasin' because I think I was able to get the max chance of Critical hits in a reasonable build (so I just did the same here). I completely agree that even with a lower chance at getting criticals another build with a nice critical chance can be made that's better overall. It just wouldn't be getting the 'ultimate' number, and that's fine because it's not the only important thing for the class.

Same is true for 'ultimate' DPS. Other Assassin DPS builds will be better in many other areas I admit, but this one approaches peak DPS for the class using normal melee attacks. Does that make better sense? So no need to make too much of the word because it has a very narrow meaning and isn't a boast of being the #1 killer build possible (or even close).

Gangrel
12-04-2006, 22:12
Your point is different than Nanashis point in his last post. Ok you made an ultimate DPS assasin that had the most DPS (probably) done to a stationary target that used no defenses... Let's not argue about that anymore since we did that earlier.

Nanashis point was that comparing 2 tottaly different build is really easy. Which it isn't.. There are too many factor to take into account. You can't just look at one aspect of the build and say it's better than some other build because it has a hihger crit chance/more DPS/better attack speed/whatever. You need a wider spectrum, and look how well it handles different situations. And if the builds can counter dfferent ways od defense, and have different ways of doing damage/makeing shure that the damage hits - it's just hard to say tis one is better than that one. Sometimes it's just impossible.

I have no ide how it worked in EQ, and I really don't care. GW is different than EQ. In GW there are a lot of ways to stop a toon from doing damage (evade/block, conditions, hexes, kiting) and calculating pure DPS from build A and compareing with pure DPS from Build B won't give you a straight answer to the question "Which build is better?".

Nanashi
13-04-2006, 05:45
Nanashis point was that comparing 2 tottaly different build is really easy. Which it isn't.. There are too many factor to take into account. You can't just look at one aspect of the build and say it's better than some other build because it has a hihger crit chance/more DPS/better attack speed/whatever. You need a wider spectrum, and look how well it handles different situations. And if the builds can counter dfferent ways od defense, and have different ways of doing damage/makeing shure that the damage hits - it's just hard to say tis one is better than that one. Sometimes it's just impossible.

I have no ide how it worked in EQ, and I really don't care. GW is different than EQ. In GW there are a lot of ways to stop a toon from doing damage (evade/block, conditions, hexes, kiting) and calculating pure DPS from build A and compareing with pure DPS from Build B won't give you a straight answer to the question "Which build is better?".

Ok, I didn't mean it was THAT easy in the idea that you can just look at it and then determin which is better. No, it'll still require calculations of a more simple yet longer proccess since you need more than one example. So you got mixed up somewhere, or I just don't explain myself too well; which I know I'm not the best of people to understand. Maybe I just look at the simple things rather than make it all complicated.

"I play my favorite games to have fun - Not do my homework."

EQ's system was basic. You go up to a mob, start beating it down, when the battle is over you look at your score. All this system does is caculate the over all average of your hits, the total average dmg inflicted over a given ammount of time.

Like previously stated, there is no superior build for anything. There are builds however designed for specific uses, Arren's build is designed for dagger dmg with the use of skills. This build could be rendered obsolete through any other upcomeing dmg build or other players takeing action to defend against this, but I have yet to see any pure dmg build, exccept for the 7 second dealth dealer build. Other builds may include inflicting DOTs (Dmg Over Time or "conditions") what have you. Every build has a unique setting and you know what, none of them totally dominates over the other since most of the time some one out there has some sort of skill that renders your build useless. Which is what has been said quite a bit to you. "You're preaching to the choir."

We already know that any build is a victim towards the instances you have pointed out. It's the "obvious". Keep in mind even with a stance you still have a chance to be hit since the max you can get is 75%. A warrior with a stance on will never outdamage an assassin, simple as that. Once that warrior uses any skill, most stances will break and then you're back in a crappy situation where that assassin will eat you if you don't have a blind at your calling. Most warriors don't so unless if you have a ranger or Ele around, most likely you wont be cought into a blind affect dureing a one on one. Not to mention, not all players have counters it's just a matter of who you fight and how they play that character. If you have a monk nearby or some one who is blinding your opponent, they're in the same situation.

Gangrel
13-04-2006, 09:46
Ok, I didn't mean it was THAT easy in the idea that you can just look at it and then determin which is better. No, it'll still require calculations of a more simple yet longer proccess since you need more than one example. So you got mixed up somewhere, or I just don't explain myself too well; which I know I'm not the best of people to understand. Maybe I just look at the simple things rather than make it all complicated.

"I play my favorite games to have fun - Not do my homework."


Umm ok, cool, But this discusion isn't about fun builds to play. It's about all those calculations you mentioned.



EQ's system was basic. You go up to a mob, start beating it down, when the battle is over you look at your score. All this system does is caculate the over all average of your hits, the total average dmg inflicted over a given ammount of time.


That is a built in DPS calculator. It mesures the time it took you to kill something, then adds up the damage you did during that time and gives a Damage per Second number. That would be perfect because it wouldn't need all the info we just calculated. You would just need to fight 1000 or more times (different mobs), and substract a number of MOST and FEWEST DPS.

If the number of trys would be 1000 then you could substract 100 trys (10%) where 50 would be the lowest numbers and the other 50 max numbers. Then you should take the average from the numbers left. That would be an almost perfect method of seeing how much DPS a build can do in deifferent situations. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be close to accurate.



Like previously stated, there is no superior build for anything. There are builds however designed for specific uses, Arren's build is designed for dagger dmg with the use of skills. This build could be rendered obsolete through any other upcomeing dmg build or other players takeing action to defend against this, but I have yet to see any pure dmg build, exccept for the 7 second dealth dealer build. Other builds may include inflicting DOTs (Dmg Over Time or "conditions") what have you. Every build has a unique setting and you know what, none of them totally dominates over the other since most of the time some one out there has some sort of skill that renders your build useless. Which is what has been said quite a bit to you. "You're preaching to the choir."


Ok so thats a build designed to beat a training dummy.. And I shouldn't complain because all other build have their weakneses and this one suffers from them all.. Everyone ones about it and I shouldn't be posting it because it's obvious.. Umm ok..



We already know that any build is a victim towards the instances you have pointed out. It's the "obvious". Keep in mind even with a stance you still have a chance to be hit since the max you can get is 75%. A warrior with a stance on will never outdamage an assassin, simple as that. Once that warrior uses any skill, most stances will break and then you're back in a crappy situation where that assassin will eat you if you don't have a blind at your calling. Most warriors don't so unless if you have a ranger or Ele around, most likely you wont be cought into a blind affect dureing a one on one. Not to mention, not all players have counters it's just a matter of who you fight and how they play that character. If you have a monk nearby or some one who is blinding your opponent, they're in the same situation.


Wrong. The max isn't 75%. With a i.e. distortion up and Aegis the max is 87.5%. Each additional enchant/skill/whatever that has a chance to block/evade adds to that. Only a few of warrior stances breake on skill use. Beside warriors don't use evasive/blocking stances in PvP if you haven't noticed.. Rangers stances (and distortion) and evasion/blockind enchants are the problem and are overused (also wards). Those won't breake on skill use.

A one on one?? So you are either reffering to RA or a very twisted 12 vs 12 where the sin is caught by some guy, while trying to solo the respawn point. I was talking about GvG or HoH. You are VERY unlikelly to go into a 1 v 1 in those places. In a 8v8 fight your team can't help you go through blocking/evasion (except a handfull of skills - mostly hexes) so you must do it yourself.

Nanashi
13-04-2006, 11:42
Umm ok, cool, But this discusion isn't about fun builds to play. It's about all those calculations you mentioned.

Actually this build IS ment to be fun to play, Arren just has a different idea of what fun is. This build, is HIS ideal way to have fun. I was simply commenting to myself about all the caculations and such, I rather not waste my time with that stuff because it's the last thing I want to do is more math after just leaving a math class. -shrugs-




That is a built in DPS calculator. It mesures the time it took you to kill something, then adds up the damage you did during that time and gives a Damage per Second number. That would be perfect because it wouldn't need all the info we just calculated. You would just need to fight 1000 or more times (different mobs), and substract a number of MOST and FEWEST DPS.

If the number of trys would be 1000 then you could substract 100 trys (10%) where 50 would be the lowest numbers and the other 50 max numbers. Then you should take the average from the numbers left. That would be an almost perfect method of seeing how much DPS a build can do in deifferent situations. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be close to accurate.

Hmmm but in EQ it was much more varried. Warriors in GW have a much more common armor and simple at that. In EQ, the downside was the AC each mob had so you had to guess the approx. dmg. GW, the armor class is more simplistic and the most you can get is 100 with the strength of 12 or 13. Other wise the basic armor is 60. It's much easier to caculate dmg builds when you know the armor class of your opponents.




Ok so thats a build designed to beat a training dummy.. And I shouldn't complain because all other build have their weakneses and this one suffers from them all.. Everyone ones about it and I shouldn't be posting it because it's obvious.. Umm ok..

Not in the way you post it no. If you were worried about stances, why didn't you just ask for the assassin skill that nocked out any stance that the target may have up. (I forget the name)





Wrong. The max isn't 75%. With a i.e. distortion up and Aegis the max is 87.5%. Each additional enchant/skill/whatever that has a chance to block/evade adds to that. Only a few of warrior stances breake on skill use. Beside warriors don't use evasive/blocking stances in PvP if you haven't noticed.. Rangers stances (and distortion) and evasion/blockind enchants are the problem and are overused (also wards). Those won't breake on skill use.

A few skills? You're kidding me, right? All I was able to find were two warrior stances that did not break on skill use which weren't very useful anyways. Correct me if I'm wrong of corse. I haven't unlocked the elites yet. Ok then, why are you so worried about stances if the warriors don't use them too often? Rangers rarely use stances as well, unless if they go trapping in which case they use mantra which doesn't really avoid anything exccept being interrupted during preps.

Still, if the enchants are your problem then it's the monks you should focus on more so first. However, this problem you state is a problem for all not just the particular assassin class you seem to be argueing about... atleast for Arren's UDPSA build.


A one on one?? So you are either reffering to RA or a very twisted 12 vs 12 where the sin is caught by some guy, while trying to solo the respawn point. I was talking about GvG or HoH. You are VERY unlikelly to go into a 1 v 1 in those places. In a 8v8 fight your team can't help you go through blocking/evasion (except a handfull of skills - mostly hexes) so you must do it yourself.

Yes I was speaking about NORMAL 12 v 12.. the only large groups I ever truely encountered was for defending a spawn point. Otherwise people went off by themselves or some sort of partner ship of two or three.

In GVG I don't know why you're so worried. Warriors go at it in melee all the time and they face the same scenarios. If assassins keep the same tactic, swith every few seconds to drain monks or distort the enchants, they should have no problem. Assassins will be enchanted if they're being threatened in the way you described, depending if it's cruicial or not that you live. There are instances were you do or can go 1v1 during GVG it's just not too often. Maybe once or twice during a whole match. Once you woop that person they start sticking with everybody else.

HoH is sort of a different story. I see assassins playing a great part in IWAYs though, to a certain degree. Either way I don't see why Arren's build is destined to fail everytime... unless if the eles blind every single time, which can happen and probably will. If that does occur, I doubt there's an assassin build yet that can counter without Expose Defenses. A monk can only evade for so long and like you stated you're rarely alone in HoH during a serious run. So with Arren's build and other builds near by, that evasion wont last long and if it does, start beating the monk down I guess.


Look, the earlier point is you came in here either offended or whatever but you state the obvious as if it's somekind of breakthrough in GW history. As smart as I believe Arren is to be, I don't doubt that he saw this comeing and is well prepared for that to happen. Wouldn't you think so? There is no invicible build out there that can stand up against 8 others if you're in GVG or HoH. If Arren was to arrange his build to a more balanced one, it would lose it's purpose at dealing damage which was what he intended. Reguardless if the majority of the time will be spent evaded or being blocked via enchants/stances. Lets be honest, while it'll happen a lot to this particular build, it will not happen 100%. There will be times were people will be cought off guard and this build or any dps build out there will take that opportunity to slay the unsuspected. Even if your scenarios happen 8 out of 10, there will still be points in time where people will not have the time to put up any blocks or even with such, will not be able to counter the dmg of a group effort.

Azgalon
13-04-2006, 12:33
"Which build is better?".

The build which you are having most fun with is the better one for you.

Gangrel
14-04-2006, 10:01
Actually this build IS ment to be fun to play, Arren just has a different idea of what fun is. This build, is HIS ideal way to have fun. I was simply commenting to myself about all the caculations and such, I rather not waste my time with that stuff because it's the last thing I want to do is more math after just leaving a math class. -shrugs-



Ok first of All Arren should be the one telling me if the build was ment for "pure fun" or for owning other players. I belive all of that calucaltions ment that the build is a serious one...





Hmmm but in EQ it was much more varried. Warriors in GW have a much more common armor and simple at that. In EQ, the downside was the AC each mob had so you had to guess the approx. dmg. GW, the armor class is more simplistic and the most you can get is 100 with the strength of 12 or 13. Other wise the basic armor is 60. It's much easier to caculate dmg builds when you know the armor class of your opponents.


Please... Most you can get is 100?? The new sentinel armour from factions has a base of 100.. A simple 4 adren watch yourself raises that by 20... There are ALOT of skill that give more armour.. With my farming war i go up to 200 AL.. But that's not the point since that much of armour stacking is rare in serious PvP. And again it's easier to calculate the damage when the target doesn't do anyting to alter the situation (use a simpel watch yourself..).





Not in the way you post it no. If you were worried about stances, why didn't you just ask for the assassin skill that nocked out any stance that the target may have up. (I forget the name)


Wild Strike (availability)
Description: Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +8-18 damage and target foe loses all stances.


Stances are just one way of avoiding hits. That skill won't work on chain aegis, wards, guardian/reversal of fortune from a boon prot. Distortion has a 5 sec recharge, so even if you end it, the attacker can but it back up.

That skill sucks. First of all it can be blocked/evaded.. So using it to cancel evade/block stances is kinda pointless. This one is much better but it's a war attack.


Wild Blow (availability)
Description: Lose all adrenaline. If it hits, this attack will be a critical hit and any stance being used by your target ends. This attack cannot be blocked or evaded.




A few skills? You're kidding me, right? All I was able to find were two warrior stances that did not break on skill use which weren't very useful anyways. Correct me if I'm wrong of corse. I haven't unlocked the elites yet. Ok then, why are you so worried about stances if the warriors don't use them too often? Rangers rarely use stances as well, unless if they go trapping in which case they use mantra which doesn't really avoid anything exccept being interrupted during preps.


Why am I not worried about warriors using stances? Because attacking warriors when all other enemys are still alive is stupid. Unless you are a spike team, or faceing IWAY. Wariors are the toughest class to kill, but not because of stances. They have a high AL are easier to heal than any other clas (because of absorption and damage reduciotn frrm armour.)

Have you heard of whirling defence? That 17sec stance that has a 75% evasion rate? And is in the expertise line? Even if you insist on takeing this build to RA/ 12v12 then you should know that rangers will first use this stance, then when it ends blind you. Thats 20+ seconds of cripled DPS... The ranger will just stand there and finish you off.

And mantra of resolve..? It's not about preperations as you stated.. It's about traps..

And As I said, there are other obvious skills that make the assasin mis that aren't cliasified as stances,and are a bigger threat to his DPS.




Still, if the enchants are your problem then it's the monks you should focus on more so first. However, this problem you state is a problem for all not just the particular assassin class you seem to be argueing about... atleast for Arren's UDPSA build.



Yeah cause the monks won't be enchatned and won't stay in the wards.. :rolleyes: Yes it's not a particular problem for the assasin clas. It's a particular problem for this build because it has no means of going through all of the above. He alread ymade some really nice builds that can beat evasion/blocking so that point you mentioned is mute..




Yes I was speaking about NORMAL 12 v 12.. the only large groups I ever truely encountered was for defending a spawn point. Otherwise people went off by themselves or some sort of partner ship of two or three.


Yes I also played in the NORMAL 12v12. But I played a monk, and usually stuck to a bigegr group of at least 5-6 people. There were odd times when I saw a HP bar dropping suddenly that I tried to heal but couldn't. because the owner of that bar was a long distance away doing god knows what, because the main party was trying to defend shrines from such solo players (it's better to kill 1 person with a group of 5, than being killed by 5 people when soloing..).

And I'm very sorry but I treat this build as one that can actually be used in serious PvP where you have a coordinated group and asnd people that actually know what tactics means. If you plan on going solo with it in 12 v 12, by all means do so. I couldn't care less...



In GVG I don't know why you're so worried. Warriors go at it in melee all the time and they face the same scenarios. If assassins keep the same tactic, swith every few seconds to drain monks or distort the enchants, they should have no problem. Assassins will be enchanted if they're being threatened in the way you described, depending if it's cruicial or not that you live. There are instances were you do or can go 1v1 during GVG it's just not too often. Maybe once or twice during a whole match. Once you woop that person they start sticking with everybody else.


Warriors use attacks that go right through blocks/evasion (Irresistible Blow i.e.) and also use spells like gaile/shock to knockdown the target - interupting and keeping him from running away.

Teams split in 4, and 1v1 ganking occurs either if the person is harasing NPC or just doesn't know how to play. I am not takeing those kind of situation into account because when someone doesn't know how to play - he is no threat..



HoH is sort of a different story. I see assassins playing a great part in IWAYs though, to a certain degree. Either way I don't see why Arren's build is destined to fail everytime... unless if the eles blind every single time, which can happen and probably will. If that does occur, I doubt there's an assassin build yet that can counter without Expose Defenses. A monk can only evade for so long and like you stated you're rarely alone in HoH during a serious run. So with Arren's build and other builds near by, that evasion wont last long and if it does, start beating the monk down I guess.


Oh please.. IWAY?? :rolleyes: Assasins have even weaker armour, have chained attacks, so if 1 missed they are screwed, and they can't take IWAY and pets!!! WTH are you talking about?? The first thing that is thrown on IWAY is wards/chain aegis/blind and so on...

If your only problem in missing is blind - then go play more PvP. I'm very sorry but if you don't think that wards/chain aegis/evasion/blocking isn't a good enough reason to inlcude some kind of other offensive skills in this build than there is no point in argueing with you. Those elemenst are present in almost every game....

beating donw the monk? There 2/3 monks. If they are both boon-prots they will use guardian and reversal. And will heal with each cast. If not, they will sue prot spirit, aegis and direct healing. Oh and kiting.... The points you brng up make no sense. The first thing you do is KILL THE MONK.. Unless you are a spike. I really hate it when the peopel run of and what at the war, while the monk is in a few feet away just healing him.. Please say you are not one of them...

A monk can evade /block as long as he has energy. And a good monk will know how to kite/ conserve it. And you are right, in HoH you are not alone, But unless you have a necro with spinal shivers that also uses loads of cover hexes, you need to take care of that pesky evasion/blocking...

About expose defenses - read the other builds by Arrern. Then come back here and say the same thing.




Look, the earlier point is you came in here either offended or whatever but you state the obvious as if it's somekind of breakthrough in GW history. As smart as I believe Arren is to be, I don't doubt that he saw this comeing and is well prepared for that to happen. Wouldn't you think so?


I am not a mind reader, but apparently you are. I only see the skills he inlcuded in his build. And those skill say - no...



There is no invicible build out there that can stand up against 8 others if you're in GVG or HoH. If Arren was to arrange his build to a more balanced one, it would lose it's purpose at dealing damage which was what he intended. Reguardless if the majority of the time will be spent evaded or being blocked via enchants/stances. Lets be honest, while it'll happen a lot to this particular build, it will not happen 100%.



Chain aegis i 100%, a boon prot can cast reversal/guardian all the time he wants, wards have a recharge of 20 sec, and canlast even longer than that, people know how to kite. Yes I would say it's close to 100%.




There will be times were people will be cought off guard and this build or any dps build out there will take that opportunity to slay the unsuspected. Even if your scenarios happen 8 out of 10, there will still be points in time where people will not have the time to put up any blocks or even with such, will not be able to counter the dmg of a group effort.

If by group you mean a few assasins that have the build mentioned above - nope.. If you mean people that actually can do something to someone who can evade/block - then yes, but that's not the build that we are discusing, is it? And if your plan for winning a GvG/HoH is to to take some by suprise and pray he doesn't have time to use any defenses than I sudgest you start praying right now..

Nanashi
14-04-2006, 11:33
You just don't get it. This is obvious stuff. I mean seriously, you think we should praise you for pointing this stuff out like it's recent rocket science? No. The point was instead of simply helping Arren find a way around these "problems" you just jump right in and say "Wont work." How do you know this wont work? If grouping is key to winning, which I don't disagree on this, then you shouldn't have to worry if a monk spams you with evade/blocking enchantments. You wont hit the target and the target wont hit you. Stalemate anyone?

This assassin class is new but these enchantments have been around since release of the game but I don't see you running around telling other people that their builds wont work because of this. Just because you don't see it logically possible doesn't mean it isn't... the probability of winning maybe low but there's still a chance, like it or not - I don't care. That's what Arren is trying to do, get constructive debates going as to why switching out one skill with another may benefit the build in certain instances.

You were blunt and spoke of things that most of the dps builds out there deal with. It's nothing new to most people. :rolleyes:

Gangrel
14-04-2006, 18:57
You just don't get it. This is obvious stuff. I mean seriously, you think we should praise you for pointing this stuff out like it's recent rocket science? No.


Obvious? yes. But he didn't include it in the build. That's why I have mentioned it. I have never asked for praise. And I really couldn't care less about it...



The point was instead of simply helping Arren find a way around these "problems" you just jump right in and say "Wont work." How do you know this wont work? If grouping is key to winning, which I don't disagree on this, then you shouldn't have to worry if a monk spams you with evade/blocking enchantments. You wont hit the target and the target wont hit you. Stalemate anyone?


Is comprehension your bigest problem? The enemy monk cast enchants on your target (you are using this build) - you can't hit him. Your monk casts enchants on you, and the target CAN HIT YOU BECAUSE HE USES WAYS TO GO AROUND BLOCKING/EVADING... I have been sayin ADD SOMETHING TO GO AROUND THAT for like 8 posts... I think everyone got it. Except you. You either give examples of skills that don't work or are plain useless.
Look at the new builds Arren made. Somehow those builds can use evasion/blocking ignoring skills..




This assassin class is new but these enchantments have been around since release of the game but I don't see you running around telling other people that their builds wont work because of this.


Now why is that? Mabey because others have included skills that can go around that? Well let's see. Casters? Nope they don't care about evasion/blocking. Warriors? Have been using those kind of skills since release and they know how to get around it. Rangers? Now here we have trapers - they don't care. Spikers? They remowe enchants before the spike, so the monks can't recast them. And even if the intial spike doesn't get the target, the after spike will, unless they have a very good infuser. But this thread isn't about R spike.




Just because you don't see it logically possible doesn't mean it isn't... the probability of winning maybe low but there's still a chance, like it or not - I don't care. That's what Arren is trying to do, get constructive debates going as to why switching out one skill with another may benefit the build in certain instances.


Has a chance to win?? What are you talking about? If you think that wacking a guy that can evade/block your attacks, in hope that you will finally get him is a valid way to win.. No really, I don't even have to comment that.. That's like saying that if you play the lottery long enoguh you will finaly win the main prize..



You were blunt and spoke of things that most of the dps builds out there deal with. It's nothing new to most people. :rolleyes:

Ok for the last time. That's not new - true. Most builds out there deal with it - true. This build didn't - TRUE!

Don't post again that "OMG everyone knows that, it's obvious, everyone uses that" and so on. We are not talking about everyone. We are not discussin other builds. We are talking about that one build that is posted somewhere up there.. Make points related to THAT build, because we are discussing THAT build..

Nanashi
15-04-2006, 14:09
Is comprehension your bigest problem? The enemy monk cast enchants on your target (you are using this build) - you can't hit him. Your monk casts enchants on you, and the target CAN HIT YOU BECAUSE HE USES WAYS TO GO AROUND BLOCKING/EVADING... I have been sayin ADD SOMETHING TO GO AROUND THAT for like 8 posts... I think everyone got it. Except you. You either give examples of skills that don't work or are plain useless.
Look at the new builds Arren made. Somehow those builds can use evasion/blocking ignoring skills..

Hmmm but if you have a good healer then them by passing the blocks doesn't really matter now does it. Whatever, I'm tired of argueing about it. Yes, you have been "demanding" to completely destroy the build to go around such things you have stated... you can call me blind, call me incomprehensive; if anything, I could of sworn that was the problem many had when you first posted.

I seriously am tired of this.





Now why is that? Mabey because others have included skills that can go around that? Well let's see. Casters? Nope they don't care about evasion/blocking. Warriors? Have been using those kind of skills since release and they know how to get around it. Rangers? Now here we have trapers - they don't care. Spikers? They remowe enchants before the spike, so the monks can't recast them. And even if the intial spike doesn't get the target, the after spike will, unless they have a very good infuser. But this thread isn't about R spike.

Have you ever stopped to think about how perhaps this build is to be a form of R spike only in a melee sense? Of corse minus the removeing of enchantments which assassins can do (these skills you could of brought up in your first post, before just givieng reasons as to why the build wont work)



Has a chance to win?? What are you talking about? If you think that wacking a guy that can evade/block your attacks, in hope that you will finally get him is a valid way to win.. No really, I don't even have to comment that.. That's like saying that if you play the lottery long enoguh you will finaly win the main prize..

The point I was makeing that perhaps not EVERYONE has evade/block skills. Yes, deny it if you wish but not all warriors or monks go with evade/block skills during some arena matches... which is maybe the highlight of this build.



Don't post again that "OMG everyone knows that, it's obvious, everyone uses that" and so on. We are not talking about everyone. We are not discussin other builds. We are talking about that one build that is posted somewhere up there.. Make points related to THAT build, because we are discussing THAT build..

"OMG everyone knows that, it's obvious! Many "talented players" use those skills you described... it's nothing new."

Sorry, you weren't discussing squat when you first posted here. Which is why we got into this whole arguement in the first place. You just gave out "obvious" reasons as to why the build would fail rather than giveing any "helpful" ideas that would maybe even just get Arren to modify his build so that it COULD work in pvp. In no way was your post helpful, if it was (to the degree we all hoped, atleast) maybe you wouldn't be stuck in this mess.

I'm through. This will be the last reply you get from me. Say what you want, that I'm dumb, I don't know what we're talking about, whatever. We've almost turn this thread into a forum of it's own... which was rediculious. Good day to you fine sir. Nuff said.

MaximumSquid
15-04-2006, 21:22
I think the DPS assassin is fine

It does enough damage to justify the use of a backline support character on your team.

You could run a Rt / E with glyph of renewal and guided weapon

Now your guy should always land his blows.

Load up iron mist and electric daggers

Now your guy can't be kited without a rapid hex removal

Your assassin gets blind? crippled?

Use those sweet Rt removals

I mean. . .

What's wrong with the setup that you can't fix with a teamate?

Gangrel
16-04-2006, 11:48
Hmmm but if you have a good healer then them by passing the blocks doesn't really matter now does it. Whatever, I'm tired of argueing about it. Yes, you have been "demanding" to completely destroy the build to go around such things you have stated... you can call me blind, call me incomprehensive; if anything, I could of sworn that was the problem many had when you first posted.

I seriously am tired of this.


Many is a strong word. And if by destroying you mean adding skills that bypass defenses.. Yup I wanted to tottaly obliterate it..




Have you ever stopped to think about how perhaps this build is to be a form of R spike only in a melee sense? Of corse minus the removeing of enchantments which assassins can do (these skills you could of brought up in your first post, before just givieng reasons as to why the build wont work)


Heh that's like saying IWAY is another form of R spike.



The point I was makeing that perhaps not EVERYONE has evade/block skills. Yes, deny it if you wish but not all warriors or monks go with evade/block skills during some arena matches... which is maybe the highlight of this build.


The team can either outheal massive damage, spike and kill before you can kill them, or has wards/aegis/etc. Saying that not everyone brings defenses is just like saying that mabey they will just sit there and let you kill them.




"OMG everyone knows that, it's obvious! Many "talented players" use those skills you described... it's nothing new."

Sorry, you weren't discussing squat when you first posted here. Which is why we got into this whole arguement in the first place. You just gave out "obvious" reasons as to why the build would fail rather than giveing any "helpful" ideas that would maybe even just get Arren to modify his build so that it COULD work in pvp. In no way was your post helpful, if it was (to the degree we all hoped, atleast) maybe you wouldn't be stuck in this mess.


Well mabey I wouldn't be doing the obvious if someone postec at least once about that. Talking about a build, maximizing it's DPS for a few pages and doing nothing to actualy help it beat some defenses didn't look like I was stateing the obvious...



I'm through. This will be the last reply you get from me. Say what you want, that I'm dumb, I don't know what we're talking about, whatever. We've almost turn this thread into a forum of it's own... which was rediculious. Good day to you fine sir. Nuff said.

Bye, thx for the chat.


Oh and Maximum Squid - Well if you organise it in a nice 8 person party that could work. But somehow I don't see how 2 people doing 1 mans job is enough to justify how this build works. And iron mist is.. Umm risky.. That would limit the choice of your daggers, and the possibilities of the rest of your team.

Some form of teleport would make a nice surpise effect, and almost guarante a few free hits. Also 1 or 2 skills that go around blocking/evasion is enough to make this work.

I liek the idea of the weapon spell. They can't be removed. Hex/condition removal is enough on a monk, but as I said, if you integrate that build into a party of 8 it could do wonders in that setup. But unless the Rit can do something else (you took out 5 off the rits skills + rezz. That leaves space for 2 other skills.) he is of little use to the team except in a combo with the assasin (or some other melle attacker). And IMO using 2 people to do the job off one is bad.

MaximumSquid
17-04-2006, 13:36
Gangrel: here's something I just tossed together, but Rt/E with Iron mist is no joke!

6 earth magic
12 communing
15 channleing
7 spawning

Cruel was Daoshen
Spirit Rift
Iron Mist
Spirit Burn
Sirit Siphon
Guided Weapon
Glyph of Renewal
Restoration

10 second iron mist / 10 second guided weapon for your buddy
Hit Spirit Rift after iron mist. . . walk up and do spirit burn while dropping the "Depth Charge"

Your target is not going to be feeling happy =/

Gangrel
17-04-2006, 19:23
Nice idea but that build is VERY energy intensive. Most spells cost 15 and 10 energy. I don't know how much energy spirits have, and the search function doesn't work again so I can't check that.

But you will be getting 27% of Restorations energy every 50 sec. Thats not enough. Unles you use the glyph, but that would limit your other options, since the skilsl have long recharges.

Also Restoration + spirit burn doesn't look like a good combinatio. Nice try with combining the necesary rez with the spirit you needed for that build :) BUt to use thsoe skills efectively you would need a spirit that is cheap and has a faster recharge. You won't have many situations when the opponent will beslowed down near that spirit.

Destruction is also in the channeling line and has a 20 sec recharge. That would put your energy gain to every 23 sec instead of 50. That leaves you without a rez, but restoration is very hard to use effectively.. So no big loss there :)

No condition/hex removal as you promised, but instead this build could work even without the sin teammate :)

arredondo
16-05-2006, 09:37
UPDATE 5/16/06

This is the version I ran in the test:

=========================================
Ultimate DPS Assassin

Dagger Mastery: 14
Critical Strikes: 13
Shadow Arts: 9

Black Mantis Thrust: -19 damage (Lead), Cripples a Hexed foe for 14s
Jungle Strike: -19 damage (Off-Hand), an additional -29 on a Crippled foe
Twisted Fangs: -19 damage (Dual Attack), Bleeds and Deep Wounds for 18s

Shadowy Burden: Hexes with a -25% speed snare for 8 seconds along with -20 AL
Locusts' Fury {Elite}: An extra +20% chance to double strike for 32s (38s with +enchant mod)
Frenzy: +33% attack speed for 8s, but all incoming damage is doubled.

Vipers Defense -or- Rez: Teleport nearby if someone hits you during 30s, they are Poisoned for 14s (stance)
Shadow Refuge: +8 regen for 4s, then heal for 56 if attacking (5s with mod)

100% Nightstalker armor and Zealous w/+20%enchat mods on one set of daggers. I also have a +20% damage customization mod, and +15% damage mod when health is >50%
=========================================

If you love playing the Assassin, you HAVE to try this setup... the attack speed is insane! You see all kinds of damage and energy numbers popping up as you toss out quad swings one after the other (as in 4 quick hits almost non stop). Frenzy+double strikes on a high spec Assassin is more DPS than I've seen from any Warrior pure melee attack setup so far.

The label 'Ultimate DPS' is true because even without the attack skills, these regular melee hits really rack up the damage. I can take out a 60 AL dummy in 5-6 seconds when I Hex it with Shadowy Burden. On the field vs. real enemies, it also works extremely well since I have a snare after the Hex to keep them from running. Here's what I do for now:

Locust's Fury goes up. Approach enemy and Hex him with SB, then BLS attack him for the Cripple. Turn on Frenzy and melee attack spam as long as you can to get the +40% damage bonus from LF for each hit. Tag the enemy with JS->TF as late as you can to maximize damage. BTW, the energy regen is pretty good. I have 25E and energy holds up decently enough after my initial casts, so I use Nightstalker for now.

It's pretty fun even though it still is unfinished. Now that Shadow Refuge was gimped I don't want it if I can help it. I also need a permanant stance substitute since my old defensive idea won't work with this SR. I need the Rez too, but can't go in with no defense. I may have to sacrifice Shadowy Burden, but the big damage it gives this build is top tier so I want to try to keep it. What do you guys think of this one?


Tiger Stance (Stance) For 4 seconds, you attack 33% faster. Tiger Stance ends if any of your attacks fail to hit. 5E/0C/20R

In any case, the main setup is pretty crazy to see. Make sure to check it out if you can.

Symbolic Self
16-05-2006, 17:19
Oof, tiger stance is bad. I wouldn't run it as a primary warrior. 4 secs of IAS for 20 seconds, what's the point? You're not going to be dpsing with THAT. If you're sticking with warrior take rush. I keep on suggesting this but you don't like the idea for some reason....

Rush is both awesome and totally sweet. Rush will do your taxes and mow your lawn. Rush will let you strike down fleeing foes like the cowardly dogs they are. Most importantly rush will prevent you from exploding when someone decides to punish you for using frenzy and you can't quickly cancel out of it.

arredondo
16-05-2006, 21:30
Two things made me look at Tiger Stance. Firstly I think I'd want Sprint since it can recharge as I kite, unlike the Adrenal Rush. Also, TS seems like it would allow me to extend my Frenzy assault, which I like. It's a complement to the build, not a primary IAS.

Imagine I'm pounding a Warrior with LF up while under Frenzy as he attacks my Monk mate. He turns his attention to me half way through my Frenzy, so I click on Tiger Stance and keep delivering the same DPS without a pause for the next 4s. We duel to the death, let's say he dies, and by the time I go to mynew target, I can Frenzy again knowing TS will be ready to take over if necessary.

Oh, and one more thing: Shadowy Burden+BMT is plenty for me to snare and flail on my targets. I don't need a speed buff if there's no room.

Xunlai Agent
16-05-2006, 21:33
Yes you cannot use Tiger's Stance as the primary IAS in your build unless you are prepared to compromise with no added attack speed from it in situations that require it.

Symbolic Self
16-05-2006, 21:44
Two things made me look at Tiger Stance. Firstly I think I'd want Sprint since it can recharge as I kite, unlike the Adrenal Rush. Also, TS seems like it would allow me to extend my Frenzy assault, which I like. It's a complement to the build, not a primary IAS.

Sprint isn't available nearly as often as rush for a frenzy cancel which is why I prefer using it. It doesn't recharge while kiting, does this really matter when you have locust's fury + IAS + double strikes to charge adrenaline. 4 adren is nothing in the face of your insane adren generation.




Imagine I'm pounding a Warrior with LF up while under Frenzy as he attacks my Monk mate. He turns his attention to me half way through my Frenzy, so I click on Tiger Stance and keep delivering the same DPS without a pause for the next 4s. We duel to the death, let's say he dies, and by the time I go to mynew target, I can Frenzy again knowing TS will be ready to take over if necessary.

This seems like an amazingly specific scenario to justify using a bad skill. The actual increase in dps will be very small. You're using tiger stance as a stance cancel mainly, in which case rush is completely superior.



Lastly, Shadowy Burden+BMT is plenty for me to snare and flail on my targets. I don't need a speed buff if there's no room.

It's not just snaring! It's being able to switch targets quickly. It's being able to dodge projectiles easier. It's being able to respond in the face of hex removal or condition removal. And most importantly it's being able always cancel out of frenzy on a character that's inherently a lot less robust than a warrior.

arredondo
16-05-2006, 22:27
You discount the benefit of TS too much. I'm not saying it's all around better - I'll check both - but 4 ADDITIONAL seconds of TS is great with this setup. Remember, I'm getting double strikes constantly, so in effect under one session of TS on a foe I am getting at least 6-7 seconds net worth as if I didn't have double strikes.

What I described above is not a norrow specific. I only need one of these to begin with because of the necessity for a stance cancel. I need a stance cancel mainly to deal with melee enemies who target me. If I cancel with Rush, fight, I can run, or I can change targets. But with TS, if I choose to fight, I extend Frenzy's awesome DPS output for another 4s. In essence, it isn't a cancel, but a smooth transition.

Symbolic Self
01-06-2006, 22:48
What I described above is not a norrow specific. I only need one of these to begin with because of the necessity for a stance cancel. I need a stance cancel mainly to deal with melee enemies who target me. If I cancel with Rush, fight, I can run, or I can change targets. But with TS, if I choose to fight, I extend Frenzy's awesome DPS output for another 4s. In essence, it isn't a cancel, but a smooth transition.

I think you need to look at the numbers to see how little you're actually getting out of Tiger Stance. Let's take the absolute best case for TS, one where you have no other IAS so the benefit isn't diluted. TS with no investment is 4 seconds long. The recharge is 20 seconds. You'll have it active at most 20% of the time. .2 * 1.5 + .8 = 1.1. That's a whopping 10% boost, and this is an upper bound for the benefit, since if you're already using frenzy some of the time, the relative benefit of TS goes down sharply.

Now let's look at the tactical situation. You want a frenzy stance cancel in two situations:
1) You see a threat coming, and you want to switch before it lands. This can be an elementalist preparing a lightning orb, a warrior busting out eviscerate, or even something like a siege turtle firing its cannon.

2) You take a heavy hit and you immediately switch out to reduce your vulnerability.

Now 1) doesn't particularly care about what you cancel too, because you're just going to switch back to frenzy when the threat passes.

2) on the other hand is different. Assuming you've already taken the damage, you're going to be in a dangerous situation, with a large chunk of your health already gone. In this case which is more valuable. Another 4s of increased IAS, or a long lasting 25% speed boost which will give you a fighting chance to pull back, heal, and get back in the fray?

Also, let's not forget that tiger stance ends if you miss. If you're going after a monk (for example), you're very likely going to have to deal with guardian, and whoops, that 4s duration is suddenly cut in half!

Also, more generally, against a kiting target a speedboost is generally more effective against a snare. Obviously there's a cut-off, you'd be better of frenzying on someone slowed by 66% (say someone hit by deep freeze), but from observation on someone who is slowed by 25% a speedboost is still more valuable.

All in all, speaking as someone who loves to frenzy aggressively, I would never use tiger stance as a cancel stance, and that's on a primary warrior. It's just generally a waste of a skill slot that can be used on more productive things.

arredondo
01-06-2006, 23:50
I won't challenge you on this too much because you obviously have played with Frenzy a LOT more than I have. Also, I usually put defense at a premium anyway, so I'd sacrifice extra offense if I can get significant protection/healing in the process. I'll keep all of this in mind next time I test. Too bad there's no healing stance to cancel into instead.

Symbolic Self
01-06-2006, 23:56
Cancel into bonetti's defense instead? As it is you're relying mostly on autoattack dps, the no skill part doesn't hurt you particularly much.

arredondo
02-06-2006, 09:03
That sounds decent. I'll give it a try.

I'll post a quick version of an alternate build I ran today. Pretty fun too:

==============================
DPS Electric Assassin (As/El)

Dagger Mastery: 13
Critical Strikes: 8
Air Magic: 9
Earth Magic: 9
Shadow Arts: 8

Conjure Lightning
Locusts' Fury
Iron Mist

Leaping Mantis Strike
Jungle Strike
Twisting Fangs

Shadow Refuge

You HAVE to bring an electric mod for the daggers, and you should bring +20% enchant handle as well.
==============================

Kind of cool... you set up CL and LF enchants early and regen energy. Move in close to a target and hex him with Iron Mist. He's at -90% speed for 11 seconds. Use all eleven seconds to do normal melee attacks. Because of all the double strikes and +10 damage from every hit under CL, your DPS is awesome (I'll figure it out later somewhere between 45-50 DPS I'm guessing).

Just before IM is finished, they will try to run. Snare them with LMS and end with the full JS->TF finish. Death is pretty easy with this setup; but the heal can only help you so much. This is not a replacement for the main build earlier... just something to mess around with.