PDA

View Full Version : Intersting Find-Stone Summit Cross in Ascalon?



Durza the Shadeking
09-04-2006, 06:12
While dwelving into the Catacombs with my recently created Necromancer, something cought my eye.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/2720/skeletondwarf9sq.th.png (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skeletondwarf9sq.png)
The cross on the Skeleton's Tatterted garnment look exactly like the cross found on Many of the Stone Summit.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1411/skull7zn.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skull7zn.jpg)
What could this mean?
Why is there the same symbol?

Thoughts/Opinions?

Garreth MacLeod
09-04-2006, 15:25
Interesting find. Could it be something like the early Christian faith? Doesn't explain why it would be in the catacombs and on Stone Summit dwarves though. Hmm.

Krystoffur Tarqys
09-04-2006, 15:30
Perhaps if there was a likeness to their armors, there would be more cause for sepculation. If you're suggesting the undead in the catacombs are fallen Stone Summit, than these undead should be wearing 'warmer' armor, as the Stone Summit are snow dwellers first and foremost. It appears the undead are not wearing warm clothing. It looks as though there are many areas where their 'skin' would be susceptible to the damagin' cold.

However, if you're attempting to show a similarity in culture between the undead and the Stone Summit - which is probably what you are - that would be much more interesting.

Seeing as though there are never any Stone Summit battlin' the undead, this speculation/find is very interesting.

ShadowSword
09-04-2006, 19:21
Stolen ragtags of armour? As it says tattered I suspect the Undead's armour may have been banged together from any armour they could grab and this comes as a result. (oops messed up and didn't notice we were talking Catacombs)

Is there a similar symbol on any other armour in the game? And could the Stone Summit and Undead have fought at any time?

Ranger Nietzsche
09-04-2006, 22:21
perhaps both gathered armor from the remnants of moladune, which was one of the early thoughts as to the origins of the symbol.

or maybe the undead are left over from moladune, which ended suddenly and for no reason, and the stone summit are reusing the symbol as some sort of divine right heritage claim over the other dwarves (like hitler's reuse of the swastika from other civilizations)

Seyfert
09-04-2006, 22:27
well the rgp stereotype for dwarves is that they're expert blacksmiths... perhaps in a much earlier time dwarves forged armors for humans as well, crosses dont have to represent religion in fact i think its unlikely as christianity doesnt exist in guild wars, it could be sort of like a brand name to signal the blacksmith who created the armor

Quintus Antonius
09-04-2006, 22:27
Interesting, are we perhaps looking at a Moldunian? The Iron Mines of Moldune (IIRC) speak of a culture the disappeared, and I believe their symbol bore a resemblence to the cross.

Still, I don't see a resemblence between the physiology of that Undead and the Dwarves, but the cultural connection can probably be traced somewhere.

Ranger Nietzsche
09-04-2006, 22:37
dont worry, you RC:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/571/moladune1qu.th.png (http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=moladune1qu.png)

once again we see this common thread amongst civilizations of Tyria: ascalon, orr, (and even the mursaat to an extent), and moladune

they all seem to end in one dramatic BOOM

Krystoffur Tarqys
10-04-2006, 16:55
dont worry, you RC:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/571/moladune1qu.th.png (http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=moladune1qu.png)

once again we see this common thread amongst civilizations of Tyria: ascalon, orr, (and even the mursaat to an extent), and moladune

they all seem to end in one dramatic BOOM


Yah, it's the lazy/easy way of getting rid of a people to either make the game more interesting [ooo mysteries!], or to help ease the main storyline [wait, what are all these people doing at moladune? huh?]. They 'had' to go.

'Tis a shame really, as it makes their [the Moladunics ;-) ] demise anything but interesting and meaningful. Almost as if the developers needed a story for the mission area that had nothing to do with the mission.

Damn, mornings make me cynical.

Ranger Nietzsche
11-04-2006, 00:00
seems like a straight ripout of LoTR tho...a big civilization, probably dwarvish, collapses in an a glorious heap for no reason, mines are all thats remaining and people start trying to live in them again (marcus) and get killed.

moria anyone?

Quintus Antonius
11-04-2006, 01:43
seems like a straight ripout of LoTR tho...a big civilization, probably dwarvish, collapses in an a glorious heap for no reason, mines are all thats remaining and people start trying to live in them again (marcus) and get killed.

moria anyone?

I don't know anything about Lord of the Rings, but considering it is a very popular source of fantasy, along with genres like Dungeons and Dragons, I'd say it was definetly a possible inspiration. It wouldn't be that weird, all things considered. If you really look at the Guild Wars world, you can see lots of cultural influences.

I mean, duh, Kilroy Stonekin is just a port of Leeroy from World of Warcraft, and that's just one example.

So yeah, your probably right.

botrytis
11-04-2006, 02:00
There are many sources for these books - I mean the SandWurms from Dune. The different NPC races from Terry Brooks - Shanara series. Cantha from Ursala K. Le Guin and the Earth Sea Trilogy. You could go on.....

I believe that mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery - so this is it!!!

Hats off, to A.Net, that they read so many books!!

Dave

Warison
11-04-2006, 17:30
There may be some additional possibilities here with regard to the origins of Moladune. It could have been a city of the "Forgotten Serpents" or a lost human colony or outpost.

From the Lore:
In less than a century, the serpents who had protected and nurtured Tyria were no longer needed. The balance they had achieved had been undone, and there was no way to bring it back. Seeing that the world had changed, and preferring not to fight a war over control of the continent, the serpents retreated from the world of men. They left the coasts and the jungles. They abandoned their settlements in the highlands and in the mountains. Leaving the newcomers be, the serpents went to live in the only place where we humans did not—or could not—the Crystal Desert.

From the Lore:
We hunted animals for sport, chased the druids from the jungle, and took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility.

Now what happend to this city?

From the lore:
As is ever the case with peace, it once again came to an end when the volcano erupted, spitting out the five stones and scattering them across Tyria. The magic they embodied seeped out into the lands around them.

1. Is it possible that the arrival of an airborn bloodstone destroyed the city?

2. If it was a "forgotten" city, then the serpents, upon leaving could have destroued it.

3. The ancient scrolls that the Vizer/Lich used to destroy Orr had to have originated somewhere...

4. Someone else had a powerful death wail!!!

Quintus Antonius
11-04-2006, 17:44
Good thoughts Warison.

However, that brings a few questions to my own mind.

1)Why do the Stone Summit use the same symbol?
2)Why don't the Dwarves seem to remember any Forgotten City. According to various Dwarven soruces, they have been around for awhile.
3)Was the climate of the Southern Shiverpeaks different? The Forgotten are reptiles, and may be cold-blooded, thus not able to survive in the Shiverpeaks.
4)If the climate was different, how did they build a city out of ice?
5)If the Forgotten aren't cold-blooded, and are warm-blooded (such as dinosaurs) then why don't they ever mention Moldune?

Also, the Forgotten retreated from the world before the Bloodstones erupted. Although, I do like your theory about the Bloodstone smashing the city, and it is not necessary that the city have residents for it to have been smashed.

Ranger Nietzsche
11-04-2006, 19:49
1.
the stone summit are reusing the symbol as some sort of divine right heritage claim over the other dwarves (like hitler's reuse of the swastika from other civilizations)

2. This just amuses me not to insult but "Why don't the Dwarves seem to remember any Forgotten City." the most correct answer is usualy the simplest one: they forgot

3. idk any climatology, but the Forgotten definately use to rule tyria, and since one claim for the structures on watchtower coast and LA is teh forgotten built them they have to get to kryta somehow

4. i dont know
5. they dont really mention anything about anything really

Quintus Antonius
11-04-2006, 20:23
1.

2. This just amuses me not to insult but "Why don't the Dwarves seem to remember any Forgotten City." the most correct answer is usualy the simplest one: they forgot

3. idk any climatology, but the Forgotten definately use to rule tyria, and since one claim for the structures on watchtower coast and LA is teh forgotten built them they have to get to kryta somehow

4. i dont know
5. they dont really mention anything about anything really

You answer to question one was very good, actually. I never even considered that, but it makes a lot of sense.

As for the "Forgotten" city. I literally meant the Forgotten as a race, not forgotten as a state of mind. The Dwarves have a rather long cultural memory, in terms of their lore being important to them, so I figured they aren't ones to forget something as grand as a city of ice full of serpents. I still don't completely believe it could have been a Forgotten city, but it is still one plausible idea. I think we need to learn more about Forgotten physiology. If they are cold-blooded, there is simply no way it is possible, if they are warm-blooded, it is more likely. So far, all places we have found plausible Forgotten connections were in warmer climates (Desert and Kryta), where a reptillian race could remain active.

I think we need some serious research into the Forgotten culture, talk to Forgotten in the Desert and do some research on the Forgotten as a race.

What leads me to believe the Moldunians were humanoid and not Forgotten is the fact that Ascalonian undead, such as those found in the Catacombs, bear the Moldune cross. Of course, it could be possible that Moldune functioned in a fashion similar to Atlantis, being a worldwide power, but considering it is almost landlocked, and the only waterways are ice, I don't see how that would work.

Warison
11-04-2006, 20:33
The "Lore" does say that the "forgotten" had settlements in the mountains. Now a settlement does not exactly sound like a large city of stone and ice, but that is all relative. Is there a "forgotten" thread that I am not aware of? LOL... pun.... It seems that they should be very knowledgable since their existence transcended the time of the "old gods" tinkering with the flora and fauna of Tyria through the time of their departure 174 ae.

Tenuei
16-04-2006, 00:09
Departing a bit from the Undead-Stone Summit connection...
Based on nothing but the name, is it possible that Moladune was a city of the Dredge in some distant past? The Dredge names we've seen so far are Molenin, Molachev, and Moleneaux (during the FPE). What little we know of the Dredge suggests that they're natives of the Shiverpeaks, and lived in the region long before being enslaved by the Stone Summit.

Quintus Antonius
16-04-2006, 01:45
It's certainly possible, and that is a very good observation, Tenuei.

The one thing I wonder about is why the Stone Summit would adopt a symbol of the people they enslaved?

Ranger Nietzsche
16-04-2006, 02:13
i really like the idea of the dredge, maybe some of teh dredge quests explain a few things.

however, the timeframes seem not to fit here. moladune fell a long time ago and teh stone summit is relatively recent. unless the city fell and the dredge were much later enslaved, in which case the Stone Summit might just be pretending it was a dwarven city in the first place, or doing a Roman style thing of adopting teh various cultures they conquer

Dunnoir
16-04-2006, 13:23
is it mentioned anywhere when the dwarven civil war began? as far as i am aware it is not mentioned how long the stone summit and the deldrimor dwarves have been at war. This leads me to believe that the cross in question may simply have been the mark of a particular blacksmith, or the mark of a forge. Maybe the dwarves (before the civil war) created this armour for the people of Ascalon, either because of the mentioned old alliances, or perhaps simply because they were payed. People who wore the armour then wandered into the catacombs and we either killed by the undead and then had the armour stolen, or maybe they were infected by something or someone, and then became undead warriors, still wearing the same armour. Then when the civil war broke out, the Stone Summit stole armour to give protection to their armies, at least until they could forge their own, personalised armour.

Quintus Antonius
16-04-2006, 17:22
The Dwarves have been at war for 200 years.

Dunnoir
16-04-2006, 22:47
well thats more than enough time for someone with armour they made to die and have their flesh rot away leaving nothing but bones, and then become animated somehow into an undead warrior

Quintus Antonius
16-04-2006, 23:29
Yes, except Moldune was gone by that time. The timelines don't match up.

Laibeus Lord
17-04-2006, 03:32
Well for one, Ascalon boundaries the Dwarven territories. They just have to climb the mountains. Although "in-game" we can not cross the map from the Dwarven territory to the Ascalon Territory.

The country that separates Kryta from Ascalon is the Dwarven Kingdom which as we know split into two.

Dunnoir
17-04-2006, 12:06
Yes, except Moldune was gone by that time. The timelines don't match up.

true, but we dont know for sure that Moldune has anything to do with the armour in question. it could have been made in droknars

Ranger Nietzsche
17-04-2006, 15:54
just curiosu .. QA where did you get taht 200 years number from?

and if its an armorer thing why is the cross on banners in at least two places, outside teh fort of Markis in Moladune, and outside of War camp

Quintus Antonius
17-04-2006, 17:07
just curiosu .. QA where did you get taht 200 years number from?

and if its an armorer thing why is the cross on banners in at least two places, outside teh fort of Markis in Moladune, and outside of War camp

Now that I review my research, I think I am mistaken about that number. I apologize.

According to in-game sources and the Manuscripts, the Summit as a guild have existed for 200 years, but the civil war has only been going on for about 20 years.

Moladune fell over 200 years ago.

For more, read the section on the Stone Summit in the Manuscripts, and the various location markers in the Southern Shiverpeaks.