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View Full Version : Mantle & Mursaat: Earlier Alliance than Plot Suggests?



Krystoffur Tarqys
09-04-2006, 15:37
I was recently working on the Bonus for the Bloodstone Fen. Having completed it, many in our group left - as it was a group touted mainly as a bonus group. However, there was one individual who needed mission completion. I stayed, along with another level 20 W/R. The three of us easily completed that mission.

The cutscene after mission completion shows a Mantle assembly, where they are 'pissed' that Hablion was 'owned.'

My question is this:

In most of the cutscene, you can see sturctures that are blood red/magenta that pulse with some translucent energy. These look exactly like the structures the Mursaat have/created on the Ring of Fire Islands missions. No biggie, right? We know Mursaat and the Mantle eventually 'get together.' My point is, this would suggest that the two are allied well before they are mentioned in the plot. Would this change the story line/uncover anything from the story line? The Sanctum Cay mission seems like it would be more interesting.

Vizier states that there are much more forces here than he supposed there could/would be. Are these forces augmented by unseen Mursaat forces? Could the Mursaat forces be at previously Mantle-only stations/tactical positions throughout Tyria, freeing up those Mantle to be in place on the Cay?

[Has this been mentioned already?]

Comments?

Bilateralrope
09-04-2006, 20:31
You know how the mantle worship the 'unseen ones' and have done since they pushed back the charr ?

Those are the Mursaat. The Mantle have been working for the Mursaat since shortly after the searing

Quintus Antonius
09-04-2006, 22:02
The Mursaat are the White Mantle's Unseen Ones.

I believe this is clearly explained in the game, but you may not be to it yet, or simply missed that.

As for the large Mantle force in Sanctum Cay, they are there because Markus was supplying them with information on the movements of the Shining Blade. As any powerful military powers, the White Mantle probably had a standing army that was not tied to any one base, thus they could muster a large force to take on the Shining Blade and still maintain their forces in other parts of Kryta.

There isn't a mystery here at all really, and most of it is explained in the various cinema's of the game. Of course, most people tend to skip them, so confusion may happen.

Krystoffur Tarqys
10-04-2006, 16:03
The Mursaat are the White Mantle's Unseen Ones.

I believe this is clearly explained in the game, but you may not be to it yet, or simply missed that.

As for the large Mantle force in Sanctum Cay, they are there because Markus was supplying them with information on the movements of the Shining Blade. As any powerful military powers, the White Mantle probably had a standing army that was not tied to any one base, thus they could muster a large force to take on the Shining Blade and still maintain their forces in other parts of Kryta.

There isn't a mystery here at all really, and most of it is explained in the various cinema's of the game. Of course, most people tend to skip them, so confusion may happen.

Haha, wow. I feel noobish. Have completed the game for a couple months now, and STILL didn't even realize that :-\

/treadlightlywithinloreforum

Quintus Antonius
10-04-2006, 17:18
It's amazing what you can learn if you listen. The cinemas are there for a reason. I know people who are new to the game and skip all the cinemas, then are lost as to the mission objectives. This is why people tend to think GW has a weak storyline or no lore, because they tend to skip things, or not read the text of quests. However, in the Lore Forum, this is necessary as it is one of our only canonical sources of information, other than dev's, the Manuscripts, and the art book.

Noroimusha
10-04-2006, 21:36
Hey guys...guys. You would know that the Mursaat were known to the mantle since a LOOONG time ago (since Saul D'Alessio) if you read the lore booklet that comes with the game. Plain and simple.

Quintus Antonius
10-04-2006, 23:49
Hey guys...guys. You would know that the Mursaat were known to the mantle since a LOOONG time ago (since Saul D'Alessio) if you read the lore booklet that comes with the game. Plain and simple.

Yeah, that was exactly what I was trying to allude to. Only I try to do it subtely, instead of coming out and saying, "Hey idiot, read the manual!" :tongue:

Krystoffur Tarqys
11-04-2006, 00:05
I did read the manual many times over [sleepless nights] and watched every cut scene. Somehow I just missed it. However, I still fail to see how it's perfectly sound to believe that they're the unseen ones, if so, how would Saul D'Alessio 'perish' with every other man/woman in his unit? The Mursaat are impervious to anything that isn't infused, and even after that buffer they are still powerful foes. How would they let their allie's leader die? That seems like a big 'whoopsies' for the Mursaat.

The Mursaat just seem too badass to be denied 'ownership,' and when coupled with the semi-legitimacy of the Mantle...

Still seems questionable.

Can anyone point me in the direction where I may find all these questions? I have read the [worthless] manual and ventured onto other sites, but I can't seem to get answers to questions such as these.

Durza the Shadeking
11-04-2006, 00:52
The Mursaat have been worshipped by the White Mantle and here is a few reasons why they continue to be with the mantle.

1.Steady Supply of Chosen Souls
2.Allies in War Effort ( I know they got Jades, but when you have humans bowing down to you it does not matter if you sacrafice a few in a war.)
And Many More...

The Saul Delessio thing in itself seems wierd, but there were no survivors to tell the tale.
My own personal guess is that Saul knew to much and needed to get rid of, so the Mursaat had his "spies" kead him deep into Charr territory.

Krystoffur Tarqys
11-04-2006, 00:57
The Mursaat have been worshipped by the White Mantle and here is a few reasons why they continue to be with the mantle.

1.Steady Supply of Chosen Souls
2.Allies in War Effort ( I know they got Jades, but when you have humans bowing down to you it does not matter if you sacrafice a few in a war.)
And Many More...

The Saul Delessio thing in itself seems wierd, but there were no survivors to tell the tale.
My own personal guess is that Saul knew to much and needed to get rid of, so the Mursaat had his "spies" kead him deep into Charr territory.

Ah, very convincing points. Talk about a 'shadow government.' It would be very interesting to one day make a hierchical graph/flow chart of 'power' within Tyria. It might help [me] understand things a bit.

Ranger Nietzsche
11-04-2006, 01:10
there are litteraly aslsoads of topics in here that could give you more than you ever wanted to know in terms of the mursaat, here is the largest

The HUGE one
http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=385842

Quintus Antonius
11-04-2006, 01:26
Still seems questionable.

Can anyone point me in the direction where I may find all these questions? I have read the [worthless] manual and ventured onto other sites, but I can't seem to get answers to questions such as these.

It's not questionable as it is clearly explained in game; and I would disagree vehemently with anyone who says the manual is worthless, seeing as it is the basis for almost everything we discuss in the Lore Forum.



there are litteraly aslsoads of topics in here that could give you more than you ever wanted to know in terms of the mursaat, here is the largest

The HUGE one
http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=385842

Yup, written by me no less, and the article that inspired me to petition for the Lore Forum :grin:

Krystoffur Tarqys
11-04-2006, 02:08
It's not questionable as it is clearly explained in game; and I would disagree vehemently with anyone who says the manual is worthless, seeing as it is the basis for almost everything we discuss in the Lore Forum.



Yup, written by me no less, and the article that inspired me to petition for the Lore Forum :grin:

Where is it explained in the game that the Mursaat need the Mantle? For a gamer/casual gamer, it seems a bit confusing to me.

I will read your review. Thank you for the link :)

Quintus Antonius
11-04-2006, 02:50
Where is it explained in the game that the Mursaat need the Mantle? For a gamer/casual gamer, it seems a bit confusing to me.

I will read your review. Thank you for the link :)

Oh, I believe there is a bit of miscommunication, I thought you meant it was questionable that the Mursaat were the Unseen Ones.

Noroimusha
11-04-2006, 09:42
Quintus...Im not trying to say any one is stupid, but trying to give a simple answer to a question :)



quote: originally posted by Krystoffur tarqis :
I did read the manual many times over [sleepless nights] and watched every cut scene. Somehow I just missed it. However, I still fail to see how it's perfectly sound to believe that they're the unseen ones, if so, how would Saul D'Alessio 'perish' with every other man/woman in his unit? The Mursaat are impervious to anything that isn't infused, and even after that buffer they are still powerful foes. How would they let their allie's leader die? That seems like a big 'whoopsies' for the Mursaat.

The Mursaat just seem too badass to be denied 'ownership,' and when coupled with the semi-legitimacy of the Mantle...

Still seems questionable.

Can anyone point me in the direction where I may find all these questions? I have read the [worthless] manual and ventured onto other sites, but I can't seem to get answers to questions such as these.


You see, Saul D'Alessio only met the Mursaat once, and has since then worshipped them because he believed in them. They just moved on, not even knowing he's worshipping them!!. He died because his spies among the charr failed to inform him of an ambush that was planned for him. The Mursaat came to contact, and got to know their worshippers only recently, on the hands of dr. Dorian.

hexal
11-04-2006, 12:06
[QUOTE=Krystoffur Tarqys]In most of the cutscene, you can see sturctures that are blood red/magenta that pulse with some translucent energy

Anyone else notice that this can be found behind the Balthazar statue in Heroes Ascent. The stairs are just like it just white. And, Quintus, you must know about teh temple in the jungle, it's pretty much the same style ("Eye of Janthir" on them)

Quintus Antonius
11-04-2006, 17:08
You see, Saul D'Alessio only met the Mursaat once, and has since then worshipped them because he believed in them. They just moved on, not even knowing he's worshipping them!!. He died because his spies among the charr failed to inform him of an ambush that was planned for him. The Mursaat came to contact, and got to know their worshippers only recently, on the hands of dr. Dorian.

If the Mursaat and the Mantle never had contact, how did the Mantle sacrafice the Chosen, per the Mursaats orders, to hold of the Flameseeker Prophecies.

The highest members of the Mantle, Saul D'Alessio most likely included, knew who the Mursaat were and had contact with them. The White Mantle symbol is basically an artists conception of the Mursaat, they obviously had contact.

You can only meet someone once, if you come in contact with them again, it isn't meeting them. However, Saul D'Alessio was with the Mursaat for at least a few years, we even hear of his journeys in some of the various tablets around Kryta. We know he visited at least two Mursaat cities: the one in the Maguuma Jungle were he first met the Mursaat, and the Isle of Janthir, where the Mursaat gave him the Eye of Janthir.

The White Mantle as a whole were introduced to the Mursaat after Confessor Dorian revealed them, but Confessor Dorian himself obviously had contact with them before hand, seeing as he wasn't in any way shocked by their real identity, even most of the White Mantle weren't. The Mursaat were called the Unseen Ones because, until the formation of the Mantle, and even after it 99% of people had to take it on faith that they existed.

Although, you are right, Saul died because of bad information, not because the Mursaat abandoned him.



Anyone else notice that this can be found behind the Balthazar statue in Heroes Ascent. The stairs are just like it just white. And, Quintus, you must know about teh temple in the jungle, it's pretty much the same style ("Eye of Janthir" on them)

If you have read my article on the Mursaat, a large portion of it was dedicated to the Temple of Balthazar in the Jungle, so yes, I am familar with it.

One reason why I felt Lord Odran was a Mursaat was because these various temples, most of which display Mursaat architecture and symbols, were locations were Odran hid his portals to the various realms of the Mists (Fissure of Woe, Underworld, and the Rift).

Ranger Nietzsche
11-04-2006, 19:42
I still think the statue of balthazar in maguuma should let you into Fow, the statue of grenth in Lornars pass lets you into UW...its the only way to start UW with a morale boost

Noroimusha
12-04-2006, 11:15
quote: originaly posted by Quintus Antonius:


The White Mantle as a whole were introduced to the Mursaat after Confessor Dorian revealed them, but Confessor Dorian himself obviously had contact with them before hand, seeing as he wasn't in any way shocked by their real identity, even most of the White Mantle weren't. The Mursaat were called the Unseen Ones because, until the formation of the Mantle, and even after it 99% of people had to take it on faith that they existed.



Maybe u'r right about Saul D'alessio, since he knows alot about them. But concideing that you said non of the White Mantle, other than confessor Dorian knew the Mursaat..................THAT'S WHAT I WAS SAYING!!

Ranger Nietzsche
12-04-2006, 14:03
no, you were saying the mursaat were unaware of thier status as the Unseen ONes until dorain showed up, including the blatantly false statemnet that he met them only once

what quintus and the consensus are saying is that the mursaat were aware from the beginning and were orchestrating his moves ever since

Noroimusha
12-04-2006, 14:09
I don't know about the Mursaat. But what I was saying, or maybe MEANT, was that the Mantle didn't see the Mursaat before!!

Quintus Antonius
12-04-2006, 17:14
Alright, calm down. This is quickly degrading into a flame war.

From my perspective, this topic has been resolved, and all we are doing now is arguing over who is right or wrong. Let's not do that.

In the future, say what you mean so that there is no conflict in different interpretations of your words. It's dangerous to assume we will all take things the same way you do, and that is were conflict arises from.

If I were a mod, I'd close this topic, but since I'm not, consider the matter resolved, and let's carry on in a civilized manner from here on in.

Noroimusha
13-04-2006, 13:40
True. I wasn't angry thou. I might've meant something that I didn't write...sorry.

The Stiehl
14-04-2006, 14:38
Anyone else notice that in the mission D'alessio Seaboard, at the Temple of Tolerance, there are jade pillars around Dorian? You also see them in Iron Mines of Moladune, when Jade Armors pop out of them to defend Markis. My question is, why couldn't Jade Armors destroy the undead hoard? People will say "Oh, they couldn't reveal themselves to the players yet." But, if they had destroyed the undead, there would be no need for the players to do the mission, hence, they would never see them.

hexal
14-04-2006, 15:18
Anyone else notice that in the mission D'alessio Seaboard, at the Temple of Tolerance, there are jade pillars around Dorian? You also see them in Iron Mines of Moladune, when Jade Armors pop out of them to defend Markis. My question is, why couldn't Jade Armors destroy the undead hoard? People will say "Oh, they couldn't reveal themselves to the players yet." But, if they had destroyed the undead, there would be no need for the players to do the mission, hence, they would never see them.
good point. but, if the undead were alredy beat there, we wouldnt need to go there, we wouldnt get rewarded by saying the confessor by joining the mantle, we woulndt chase the shining blade into the jungle, we wouldnt see wat happnes at bloodstone fen, etc
off topic: wat does ":soapbox:" mean?

Quintus Antonius
14-04-2006, 15:49
Yeah, I'd say that's a planned plot twist. Either that or the Jades need time to develop and just weren't ready to hatch yet or something.

hexal
14-04-2006, 16:22
planned i say. its still a game, and if the devs dont want somehting to happen, it wont, without question

The Stiehl
14-04-2006, 16:50
So there's no lore involved, its just "the developers wanted this and that how it's gonna be." :tongue:

Quintus Antonius
14-04-2006, 16:57
We try to shy away from that explanation here in the Lore Forum, it is not quite an acceptable solution.

A more appropiate way to explain it would be: Confessor Dorian didn't feel the need for the Jades to be revealed at that time.

In the Lore Forum, at least, we have to assume its in-game character motivations, not dev motivations.

Noroimusha
14-04-2006, 19:46
Good point Quintus. I think that it has to do with the Mursaat and that THEY control the jade pillars somehow. They weren't attending at D'Alessio Seaboard, but it was more important at iron mines of moladune...


ps: I invite all of you to read a story I wrote in the Fan fiction forum, titled
"A Wanderer's story"(the modified version)...

Quintus Antonius
15-04-2006, 02:59
Good point Quintus. I think that it has to do with the Mursaat and that THEY control the jade pillars somehow. They weren't attending at D'Alessio Seaboard, but it was more important at iron mines of moladune...


Ah, great connection Noroimusha. Perhaps a Mursaat prescence is necessary to hatch the jade pillars. Either that, or the jade pillars we see at the Temple of Tolerance aren't infused with souls yet, and therefore can't become jades at that time.

Ranger Nietzsche
15-04-2006, 04:29
also possible is that confessor dorian was not aware of your arrival, his subordinates sent you w/o telling him.

he was going to unleash teh jades, but he couldn't reveal such power to newcomers who weren't even in the mantle.

So he just hoped we would kill them off, or die first, and then he would unleash the jade.

or perhaps teh jades and mursaat are in some way vulnerable to the undead presence? we never see the two in combat. Maybe spectral agony won't kill rotscale.

Quintus Antonius
15-04-2006, 04:35
Another possibility is that the Mursaat don't want to reveal themselves to the whole of the White Mantle and Kryta. If the Jades fight along side the Mantle in Kryta, then the Unseen Ones are seen. That seems like a big trump card to me, they were probably saving that for something that required more of a moral boost to the troops. The White Mantle seemed to be able to handle the Undead well enough on their own.