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View Full Version : Considerations to take when making a PVP Assassin's build



TooBadUnknown
13-04-2006, 04:12
I've been looking at people's builds quite a bit lately, and I've notice a lot of these considerations did not seem to be taken in account (I'm not talking about all the builds I'm seen though), which they should when dealing with the case of PVP.

Note*: sorry that this post is so lengthy, so feel free to divide them into sections if you want to read them, but don't want to read so much at one time.

Introduction

I would like you to first understand me, that is, I want to let you know that I'm a regretist, someone that leans toward the worst possible situation. I also want you to know that I do not own Prophecy, and the knowledge I have comes mostly from reading the forums on gwonline.net. Whether you think my comments are valid or not is for you to decide.

attack speed - I want to first start off with attack speed because many of you have probably read that DPS faq stickied at the top. Dagger Mastery does not make your dagger attacks faster as many might have misinterpreted. It gives you a greater chance of double striking on any ONE hit. Your dagger attack speed is 1 hit per every 1.33 sec unless you buff it up with some kind of skill. So do not think that it will make you attack any faster, which could throw your considerations off when using such skills as temple strike {e} in your build to daze the casters because the fact is that many of them can easily remove the condition faster than your attack speed can interrupt them while they're dazed.
Ex. The Monk's skill Purge Condition only takes 1/4th a sec to cast (1/2th a sec to cast while dazed)

cast time - I would like to address that when choosing certain skills/spells, look at their cast time. If you have too much skills that you need to cast (any buffing skills or hex spells) before going into battle take into considerations how long it takes you to cast and the duration the skill lasts for.
Ex. The Assassin's Shadowy Burden takes 2 secs. to cast, and though it hexes the target to move 25% slower and -20 Armour Level if they have no other hex on them it only lasts for 4-9 secs. The time length that it takes you to catch up to your foe could out match its usefulness because 25% slower isn't very much, and your target is probably no where near you by the time you finish casting it. However, I do see potential use when hexing while a teammate does the attack (or you can make use of some teleport skills, which will be discussed in spatial control).

In addition, thanks to arredondo, "spell casts often come with a minimum .75 aftercast before you can do anything else." So Shadowy Burden is even less effective if you consider this.

chase/cripple - This follows off of the last example about Shadowy Burden. Crippling is a condition and can be used before casting Shadowy Burden so that you can keep Shadowy Burden's effect and catch up to your target (this is assuming your a melee attacker). Remember that your target can run, so watch out for that.

execution time - This is very important (though I'm not 100% sure, I do recall being paused in movement whenever I hit my target). Whenever you attack, there is an execution time. Your attack skills do not execute as fast as you can activate them as the DPS faq seems to suggest. Also, while your character is activating any attack (whether it be a skill or just a normal attack), your character becomes immobile. If you have dazed your target be aware that because your character becomes immobile for the split secs. or so after hitting your target once, monks or whoever are able to run and cast a condition removal in that time frame from the distance gap they accumulated by running right after your attack.
Ex. The monk is dazed, you hit him as he starts running, there is now a gap between you and him, he completes casting a condition removal right before you reach him and hit him. (But obviously, you can better avoid this if your teams are also attacking that monk, preferably rangers, before the monk can remove the condition)

knockdown/straight damage - If your attack skill combo does not knockdown your target or prevent him from casting in any kind of way, be wary that if your high damage output might not be very useful. What I mean is that I've seen some builds that do massive damage (about 600 or more), but over the course of 6-8 or even more secs. This is a problem because your target can heal more than that in the same time frame while you are attacking, even if we assume that the target doesn't run (either because he's a monk or his team members can easily cast in the heals if they see an assassin trying to kill one of them over the course of over 6 secs.).

spatial control - I have yet to see much people utilize spatial control in their build. I know Death's Charge and Dark Prison takes way too long to recharge, and because Aura of Displacement is an elite, many dismiss its potential usefulness since they prefer other elites, but lets bring out those potential use. Shadow Stepping, or in other words, teleporting to your target, allows you to surprise attack him. This will benefit you because your target will most likely be ill-prepared for your incoming attack combo. Thus, you won't have to worry about them having some enhancements or stance that blocks/evades your attack as much as if you just charged in at him. Also, I find it unlikely that you will be blinded before you finish off your surprise attack combo.
Ex. If you search for an isolated target and incorporate the Assassin's Horns of the Ox into your skill set, you can shadow step and potentially dispose of your target before he gets back up from the knockdown.

time takes to kill - this goes along with the knockdown/straight damage category, and it's somewhat addressed there. Take into account how long it takes to complete your combo and remember that there is also an execution/animation time in addition to the cast time (the only exception that I've seen are stances, which you can cast instantly while running and continue to run).

Critical Strike - I'm talking about the skill in the Critical Strikes attribute for the assassin. I haven't seen anyone incorporate this in their build, and I've just learned this from reading Bobross's post, http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=393791,
that since it's a dual attack and automatically lands criticals, it is one of the most damaging attack skill an assassin has, and it only takes 6 secs. to recharge. Also, since it's a dual attack and automatically does critical if it hits(and even though it costs 10 energy to use), you will do double strike with two strikes being criticals. That means that the criticals will gain you back energies for each attack, and each one will deal damage as though the target had -20 Armour Level. Just thought that I should mention this skill to those who weren't aware.

Update: Please read scorche's comment about critical strike because I might be wrong about its usefulness, which is two replies down.
However, I have not changed my original post because no one has yet tested and confirm that Critical Strike doesn't give you back energy for its critical strikes, so we don't know. And if scorche's post is true, then wouldn't the critical % added from Dagger Mastery not count also?

This is all I have for now, if I see any other situations or skills that assassins should take into consideration, (or if any of my info is wrong) I might update this.

arredondo
13-04-2006, 04:49
In my UCA thread I just finished posting why the skill Critical Strike is not for every type of build actually. It can deliver nice damage... about 100+ or so, but other like Twisting Fangs is awesome as well. The Deep Wound is automatically -100 simulated damage on an enemy, then there's the dual attack skill damage, the dual attack base damage and the bleeding DPS. It delivers even more damage if you get a crit or two with it.

The skill CS wasn't right for that build because of my high chance of getting a crit along with TF's damage made it so it didn't improve the setup. I'd use it in a build where it it a lower chance of getting a Crit and/or I didn't invest a lot in the DM line (i.e. using Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes for my Lead and Off-Hand attacks instead).

You may also want people to know that spell casts often come with a minimum .75 aftercast before you can do anything else. Attacks flow more smoothly into each other than doing spell-->attack.

scorche
13-04-2006, 04:54
First of all, I thank you for posting this. All PvP builds should take into consideration all of these factors, especially assassin PvP builds because of their Hit and Run style of play. but I did notice one mistake that you made





Critical Strike - I'm talking about the skill in the Critical Strikes attribute for the assassin. I haven't seen anyone incorporate this in their build, and I've just learned this from reading Bobross's post,
that since it's a dual attack and automatically lands criticals, it is one of the most damaging attack skill an assassin has, and it only takes 6 secs. to recharge. Also, since it's a dual attack and automatically does critical if it hits(and even though it costs 10 energy to use), you will do double strike with both being criticals. That means that the critical will gain you back energies for each attack,


Critical Strike will not give back energy. this is because the skill causes a critical hit and not your attribute in critical strikes. and the attribute critical strikes states that you have a 1% chance to land a critical hit for each point in critical strikes, and that you gain 1-3 energy (amount changes due to the amount of points in the attribute)each time you land a critical In this way.

Key words are "In This Way" so landing a critical due to a skill will NOT give you energy. though it can help while using skills like critical defenses or sharpen daggers which only require that a critical hit is landed, and it does not matter whether it is due to the skill or due to critical strikes. Also something important to take into consideration, especially if you plan on using many critical strikes skills.

shaktiboi
13-04-2006, 05:13
Critical Strike will not give back energy. this is because the skill causes a critical hit and not your attribute in critical strikes. and the attribute critical strikes states that you have a 1% chance to land a critical hit for each point in critical strikes, and that you gain 1-3 energy (amount changes due to the amount of points in the attribute)each time you land a critical In this way.

Key words are "In This Way" so landing a critical due to a skill will NOT give you energy. though it can help while using skills like critical defenses or sharpen daggers which only require that a critical hit is landed, and it does not matter whether it is due to the skill or due to critical strikes. Also something important to take into consideration, especially if you plan on using many critical strikes skills.

Can anyone definitively confirm or deny this claim based on your experience in the 2nd FPE? I'm pretty sure that Syes posted a screenshot on my Dagger FAQ v2 that showed without any uncertainty that his Death Blossom attack did indeed result in crits and did indeed get the energy from Critical Strikes. Don't have time to look for myself atm, just tossing this out there....

MaximumSquid
13-04-2006, 05:17
There's plenty you can load up on an assassin in the way of utility.

I try to fit at least 3 on a build if I can.

Interupt or knockdown skill
Snare or run skill
Self heal or defensive skill
Damage buff or IAS stance
Disableing attack or defensive bypass skill
An entrance or escape skill

Outside of that I think the main thing you want to be focussing on is how much damage you can inflict without too much hinderance.

Also you need to decide if your want your assassin to whip out with the occasional spike or be relentless and stay on targets with pressure style damage.

scorche
13-04-2006, 14:06
I'm pretty sure that Syes posted a screenshot on my Dagger FAQ v2 that showed without any uncertainty that his Death Blossom attack did indeed result in crits and did indeed get the energy from Critical Strikes.

Yes this is true. But what i meant was you will not regain energy if the skill says "This attack will result in a critical hit", which death blossom does not state, therefore, the energy regain was because of his attributes in critical strikes and not due to a skill. it was just coincidence that critical strikes triggered when he used a skill. The skill itself did not cause the critical.

That clear things up?

Nanashi
13-04-2006, 14:52
The only tip I can give you is, you WILL be blinded... alot.

Bobross
13-04-2006, 15:36
I was using critical strikes in the beta weekend and I did get back some energy each time. I only had critical skill of 11, and was using critical eye, so I got back 6 or so I think...But I definitely remember waiting for my 10 energy to unload it, and immediately having energy to land my next attack (moebius). I agree with you that the wording suggests otherwise...but I think the "in this way" must refer to criticals in general, rather than criticals resulting from the bonus.

Oh and thanks for this post, it's helpful to have everything summarized so concisely.

shaktiboi
13-04-2006, 17:12
I was using critical strikes in the beta weekend and I did get back some energy each time. I only had critical skill of 11, and was using critical eye, so I got back 6 or so I think...But I definitely remember waiting for my 10 energy to unload it, and immediately having energy to land my next attack (moebius). I agree with you that the wording suggests otherwise...but I think the "in this way" must refer to criticals in general, rather than criticals resulting from the bonus.

Oh and thanks for this post, it's helpful to have everything summarized so concisely.

Thanks for confirming that Critical Strike (the dual attack skill) does indeed yield energy for both of the dual criticals. I thought this was the case (fuzzy recollection) but needed somebody else to confirm it. I agree the wording on the skill is terrible and those of us who've played Magic:The Gathering are sure to key in on the "in this way" bit, lol.

shaktiboi
13-04-2006, 17:55
Now to address one of the OP's statements...

First off, this is a useful post overall. You make many good points. I am going to pick one nit with you, however...



attack speed - I want to first start off with attack speed because many of you have probably read that DPS faq stickied at the top. Dagger Mastery does not make your dagger attacks faster as many might have misinterpreted. It gives you a greater chance of double striking on any ONE hit. Your dagger attack speed is 1 hit per every 1.33 sec unless you buff it up with some kind of skill. So do not think that it will make you attack any faster, which could throw your considerations off when using such skills as temple strike {e} in your build to daze the casters because the fact is that many of them can easily remove the condition faster than your attack speed can interrupt them while they're dazed.
Ex. The Monk's skill Purge Condition only takes 1/4th a sec to cast (1/2th a sec to cast while dazed)

Well you're right and you're wrong here. Your statement that "Dagger Mastery does not make your dagger attacks faster as many might have misinterpreted" is misleading. Your effective speed is indeed increased by Dagger Mastery. Over time, you are indeed attacking faster. Swords, Axes and Daggers have the same base speed of 1.33. But in the same span of time that a sword or axe makes 100 attacks, a dagger can make 124 attacks due to 12 ranks in DM. Anyway you slice it, this is a FASTER weapon and DPS is increased, and it also affects how often you can expect energy regen bonuses from Critical Strikes to occur.

Where you're right, however, is that each actual swing of the weapon is still occurring at 1.33-second intervals, so you have to consider that when thinking about your interrupt timing. I will clarify this distinction in V4 of the Dagger FAQ.

arredondo
13-04-2006, 18:04
Technically, not each swing is 1.33 with high DM stats. Whenever a double strike occurs, it swings twice during that 1.33 period, or at a .66 rate for both swings. It differs from IAS bonuses because it doesn't occur at a perfectly predictable steady rate like Flurry or Frenzy, but the average impact over time as it relates to DPS is what has been expressed in the Dagger FAQ and other threads that discuss this issue.

Your weapon literally speeds up twice when a double strike occurs, so the info hasn't been misleading.

shaktiboi
13-04-2006, 18:50
Well, the base attack speed of 1.33 (without any IAS skills like Frenzy applied) is the actual "swing speed" for the purpose of interrupts. You'll have one chance to interrupt every 1.33 seconds.

What I'm not clear on, without further testing, is whether the attacks that double-strike just magically apply 2x the "roll results" in that same 1.33 interval, or whether the 1.33 interval actually gets cut in half or some such, one half for the first strike and the 2nd half for the second strike.

It's an important distinction to try and discover once Factions is out, because it fundamentally changes the way interrupts would work. If the second scenario is true, then with 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery, for example, you would have a 24% chance of double-interrupt attack speed on every 1.33 attack cycle.

TooBadUnknown
13-04-2006, 23:54
Technically, not each swing is 1.33 with high DM stats. Whenever a double strike occurs, it swings twice during that 1.33 period, or at a .66 rate for both swings. It differs from IAS bonuses because it doesn't occur at a perfectly predictable steady rate like Flurry or Frenzy, but the average impact over time as it relates to DPS is what has been expressed in the Dagger FAQ and other threads that discuss this issue.

Your weapon literally speeds up twice when a double strike occurs, so the info hasn't been misleading.

Are you sure about that, arredondo? If you are, then I would edit my post, except I can't seem to edit any of my posts right now (is there a certain amount of time you can edit your posts per day?). I also need to change the info for the aftercast, since not all spells seem to have it.
Ex. The Ritualist's Spirit Transfer doesn't have any aftercast, which I used to heal my teammates in Random Arena against spiking. (I healed my target ally practically as rapidly as I can click on the hot key for Spirit Transfer, since the activation time is only 1/4th of a sec.).

I also have an inquiry about the execution time if anyone can answer me? I've noted from watching the Faction gameplay videos that the attack animation consisted of the original position to strike position and from strike position back to the original position (Most notably from watching the ritualists swinging with the swords). I also recall someone posted somewhere on one of the forums that the first attack is faster, hitting at 1 secs., but from watching the videos, it seems like it's the same speed for both going from the original position to strike position and strike position back to the original position. So is it .66 secs to strike the target with the swing animation, and then .66 secs to go back to your original position? (and .66 secs to strike the target again is why it would take 1.33 secs for every hit afterwards?)

Illustration for the execution time that I am inquiring about:

Original Position = self explanatory. It's the position you're in before you attack your target (and I'm assuming that you are right next to your target).

Strike Position = when you first hit your target, or in other words, when the blade of your dagger meets your target, hence, is when you cause damage.

Original Position --> Strike Position .66 secs deals damage
Strike Position --> Original position .66 secs
Original Position --> Strike Position .66 secs deals damage
Strike Position --> Original position .66 secs
etc...

I'm not sure it really takes that amount of time inbetween transitions or anything, but that's not really what I'm asking for. I just want to know if this cycle is really how attacking works?

MaximumSquid
14-04-2006, 03:07
The only tip I can give you is, you WILL be blinded... alot.

Don't forget the snares! I think i'd rather be blinded than being crippled

and god forbid someone puts Iron Mist or binding chains on you with a stack of degen hexes :cry:

arredondo
14-04-2006, 07:16
Are you sure about that, arredondo? If you are, then I would edit my post, except I can't seem to edit any of my posts right now (is there a certain amount of time you can edit your posts per day?). I also need to change the info for the aftercast, since not all spells seem to have it.
Ex. The Ritualist's Spirit Transfer doesn't have any aftercast, which I used to heal my teammates in Random Arena against spiking. (I healed my target ally practically as rapidly as I can click on the hot key for Spirit Transfer, since the activation time is only 1/4th of a sec.).

I also have an inquiry about the execution time if anyone can answer me? I've noted from watching the Faction gameplay videos that the attack animation consisted of the original position to strike position and from strike position back to the original position (Most notably from watching the ritualists swinging with the swords). I also recall someone posted somewhere on one of the forums that the first attack is faster, hitting at 1 secs., but from watching the videos, it seems like it's the same speed for both going from the original position to strike position and strike position back to the original position. So is it .66 secs to strike the target with the swing animation, and then .66 secs to go back to your original position? (and .66 secs to strike the target again is why it would take 1.33 secs for every hit afterwards?)

Illustration for the execution time that I am inquiring about:

Original Position = self explanatory. It's the position you're in before you attack your target (and I'm assuming that you are right next to your target).

Strike Position = when you first hit your target, or in other words, when the blade of your dagger meets your target, hence, is when you cause damage.

Original Position --> Strike Position .66 secs deals damage
Strike Position --> Original position .66 secs
Original Position --> Strike Position .66 secs deals damage
Strike Position --> Original position .66 secs
etc...

I'm not sure it really takes that amount of time inbetween transitions or anything, but that's not really what I'm asking for. I just want to know if this cycle is really how attacking works?

I think it's more helpful to look at the bright flash of sparks that happens when you make contact with your melee weapon. Regardless of the animation (which varies from swing to swing), ask yourself, how often does the flash spark if I continually swing? The basic answer for unaltered knife builds with low DM stats is one spark every 1.33 seconds. The game just tries to synch animation with the spark as smoothly as it can. Let it auto -attack and the spark should come at that rate.

Now, if you get a double strike, you should get an early flash just before the normal one. Maybe it's not perfectly .66 for the first one, but it does come out before the second one hits at 1.33. That's all I'm pointing out. You yourself can recall a double strike can't you? The hit rhythm from auto attacks is:

...pow...pow...pow...powpow..pow...pow...

Each "..." in my example is 1.32 seconds. You attack as you move in and don't make first contact until 1.33. After that, it's 1.32 of time going by before the next hit. After the third hit in my example, you still see two ".." because an extra hit slipped in there; the time is still 1.33 for that time period though. Breaking it down mathematically let's say I get a double strike 25% of the time (once every four hits as in my example).

After 100 swings I connected 25 extra times for 125 hits total in 133 seconds (100 swings x1.33s) . Without a double strike chance, I swing 100 times, I only get 100 hits in 133 seconds.

What if I had a zero chance at double strikes, but had IWAY on me for those 133 seconds (+25% attack speed)? Instead of only 100 swings, I can now get 125 swings in 133 seconds. That's the exactly the same outcome of having a 25% chance at getting a double strike.... 125 swings in 133 seconds (instead of the normal 100). So the two types of factors used in determining the overall impact of an Assassin's Dagger attacks affect the results the exact same way: a higher DPS average over time based on the percentage improvement of hits making contact more often.

10 swings in fifteen seconds is changed to a 40% attack speed increase means you get 14 swings in the same time period.

10 swings in fifteen seconds is changed to a +40% chance at double striking means you get an average of 14 hits making contact in the same time period.

The main obvious difference between IAS and double strikes is that one is a constant value, the other is a varied but predictable average. With IAS, it's always the same rate of damage. For double strikes, sometimes it DS's more often than expected, sometimes less. Still, the longer you track the results, the more you'll see it match the average in the total damage done of IAS almost exactly.

Gangrel
14-04-2006, 11:29
Yes the first strike is always at 1 sec, independent of the weapon speed. That isused in the ranger spike (double shot fires 1 sec after yoy start attacking, and th next hit is from punishing - even with slow bows, the attack delay is the same).