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Endrick
13-04-2006, 11:16
In the "Army of Darkness" quest in the Fissure of Woe, we have to kill a "Priest of Menzies". Menzie is lord of destruction, the half-brother of Balthazar and this priest is belonging to his shadow army.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Priest_of_Menzies

In fact, if you look carefully at this "Priest of Menzie", we see that it is a White Mantel Priest (a bit modified). I have not the screenshot here, but on his back you can even see the symbol of the White Mantel.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/7/7a/Priest_of_Menzies.JPG

Do someone have an explanation to this ? Is it a link between the White Mantel, Menzie and the Murzaats ? Do the White Mantels that we kill join the Shadow Army ?

[EDIT]

The shadow mesmers are also White Mantel

http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/thumb/b/bb/ShadowMesmer.jpg/318px-ShadowMesmer.jpg
Shadow Mesmer

If all the White Mantel once dead join the Shadow Army of the Lord of destruction, this would break the theory that the White Mantel is not evil.

Endrick
13-04-2006, 12:35
View of the back.


I have not seen any mention of this but while in the Fissure of Woe fighting shadow warriors, i thought i saw a design on there back... on the spell casters... and look what i found, A white mantle emblem (its distorted due to them moving)

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3682/hard9ft.th.jpg (http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hard9ft.jpg)

and also, all shadow "men" have the back spikes/wings/whatever charastic of Enchanted armor, the casters also seem to wear armor strikenly simular to the White Mantle.

EDIT: Added a edited version that is brightened to see the emblem easier

I have no doubt these were members of the White Mantel. The spikes, glowing eyes and so on are results for being part of the Shadow Army.

ShadowSword
13-04-2006, 15:55
Maybe all those who were 'evil' in real life are given to the Shadow Army instead of being allowed to go on. Whether it's because the yhad evil intentions or just evil deeds with good intentions, however.........

Quintus Antonius
13-04-2006, 17:15
Perhaps those White Mantle were Chosen who were sacraficed to the Bloodstones. It may be the they aren't White Mantle at all, but rather, a type of specter that takes on the form of something from the heroes mind, and forms that. The White Mantle take on the role of "villian" in Prophecies, regardless if they are or not, and may end up being displayed as villians.

Still furthermore, it could be as other people suggested, that this is the equivelent of "Hell" for those unpure Mantle.

Goldfish God
13-04-2006, 17:49
simplist idea, obviously not all white mantle are evil, but some certainly seem like it (the guy on the jungle bloodstone certainly seems a bit evil). Even real world religions have had a fair bit of corruption and evil even if the majority are good. It'd be interesting if the shadow army were a split-off group, who were white mantle but started looking into more evil methods (for power, to satisfy to mursatt, etc) that lead them onto a different path.

Quintus Antonius
13-04-2006, 17:59
Well, something to consider is the question if these Shadow Mantle are in anyway connected to the White Mantle. Just because they look like the Mantle doesn't mean they necessarily are.

Also, the God of Destruction is the one who controls them, could there be some connection there?

Endrick
13-04-2006, 18:06
Perhaps those White Mantle were Chosen who were sacraficed to the Bloodstones.

Unless I am false, the Chosen's spirits are trapped into the soul battery and used to keep the door closed. I don't know why they would be in that place.


It may be the they aren't White Mantle at all, but rather, a type of specter that takes on the form of something from the heroes mind, and forms that. The White Mantle take on the role of "villian" in Prophecies, regardless if they are or not, and may end up being displayed as villians.

Well, when you kill them, they don't change form, disappear, turn into dust or something else. But, as it is a "shadow" army, it could be some sort of illusions, I agree.


Still furthermore, it could be as other people suggested, that this is the equivelent of "Hell" for those unpure Mantle.

Maybe some sort of punishment for those who try to rebel. Brrr, scary :shocked:

Quintus Antonius
13-04-2006, 18:23
Maybe some sort of punishment for those who try to rebel. Brrr, scary :shocked:

You know, that makes sense. If the Mursaat have powers over souls such as we've seen, they may also have the power to banish souls to some kind of limbo such as the Fissure.

I think the fact that it is a "shadow" army, should tell us that these aren't necessarily real people, or real souls, but rather a corruption or reflection of them.

ccrazool
13-04-2006, 20:06
How, then, are the Mursaat related to the god Menzies? It's clear that this shadow army serves the god Menzies, and yet Menzies marks them (or they mark themselves) with the symbol of the White Mantle: a human-created organization which worships the Mursaat as gods.

Something's not right here.

Ranger Nietzsche
13-04-2006, 23:26
well menzies isnt among the standard pantheon, I wouldnt be surprised if he and some of the othe rlesser recognized gods (like Duhm or w/e the underworld one is) were aiding teh mursaat in their anti-old gods movements, or even orchestrating them.

Quintus Antonius
14-04-2006, 04:41
Once again, I'd like to say that they don't necessarily be connected. Have you ever worn a professional sports jersey? Are you part of that team? See my point.

The Mursaat turned away from the Old Gods, and the two other gods were pretty much kicked out of power by them, so it is possible that the other two are using the Mursaat symbol as sort of a figurative endorsement of the Mursaat. They needn't be directly in league with them.

Barinthus
14-04-2006, 07:31
Or the Mursaat serves those 'lost' gods.

terakhan
14-04-2006, 11:53
I think the symbol is less the White Mantle or Mursaat, and more Menzies' personal emblem.

We have two forces wearing it: The White Mantle, followers of the Mursaat, who are turning people away from Balthazar and the 'old gods'. Then we have the Shadow Armies, fighting Balthazar's forces, The Eternals, on their home turf.

Endrick
14-04-2006, 13:58
There is something interesting at the end of the "Bloodstone Fen" mission, after we kill Justiciar Hablion :

us : May your soul be lost in the endless Mists, never to find rest.

Maybe this is exactly what happened, as the Fissure of Woe is located in the Mists. It seems that this place is equivalent to our "Hell".

hexal
14-04-2006, 15:09
we all know the mursaat once worshipped the old gods, i believe that it was menzies that turned them away fromt he old gods. someone (not sure who) said that the mursaat might have found out something about the old gods that made them reject them. maybe it was menzies who gave them this information.
lord odran(?) went into the mists, he coulda met menzies there. someone (curse my bad memory) speculated lord odran might've been mursaat.

Quintus Antonius
14-04-2006, 16:01
we all know the mursaat once worshipped the old gods, i believe that it was menzies that turned them away fromt he old gods. someone (not sure who) said that the mursaat might have found out something about the old gods that made them reject them. maybe it was menzies who gave them this information.
lord odran(?) went into the mists, he coulda met menzies there. someone (curse my bad memory) speculated lord odran might've been mursaat.

Me on both accounts.

I think what you are saying may be plausible. Something certainly turned the Mursaat from the Old Gods, and we have no idea what.


There is something interesting at the end of the "Bloodstone Fen" mission, after we kill Justiciar Hablion :

us : May your soul be lost in the endless Mists, never to find rest.

Maybe this is exactly what happened, as the Fissure of Woe is located in the Mists. It seems that this place is equivalent to our "Hell".

If I were to pick something I felt was most likely, that's the one I find the most affinity with. It is called the Fissure of Woe afterall. If heroic souls go to the Hall of Heroes, then cowards or traitors must go somewhere too. The Manuscripts tell us that you either go to the Hall of Heroes or your soul is trapped in your rotting body forever, so I'm not sure how this works in though. Perhaps when someone is truly and unmercifully corrupted, or causes an inordinate amount of destruction, they end up in the Fissure of Woe.

Still another hypothesis I thought of is that these aren't the souls or even bodies of anyone, but rather a reflection of some bad dudes that existed in real life. If Menzie is the god of destruction like we are told, he may have picked some of the baddest Mantle to craft his minions after. Once again, that goes back to the illusion thing.

hexal
14-04-2006, 16:16
yep, menzies help the mursaat, made an army, got lazy and mirrored them after the white mantle.
thought they could be actual mantle souls, we have killed a fair lot of them :grin:

halfthought
15-04-2006, 18:27
actually, could any one translate the symbol, it could be a international symbol for somthing both faction do, such as "power" or somthing like that

Theo Kosyo
15-04-2006, 19:10
The Fissure is a battle ground for a near endless conflict. It would not be hard to believe that souls that were tarnished with war and blood in life would move on to this place, instead of the Underworld. Balthazars many followers, the Eternals, could have been the noble that died in battle never wishing to stop their feud against evil. Menzies army, the shadow, could have been the wicked that died in battle.

The numbers of Shadow to Eternal also stands to support the idea that one side is wicked the other noble; there are always more wicked than noble.

Quintus Antonius
15-04-2006, 19:26
I thought of something recently. Think to the Crystal Desert, there are sets of Mursaat armor there that the Forgotten animated to serve them. Could this be a similar situation? The Mursaat seem to get mimiced alot.

ClarianAeneas
15-04-2006, 20:31
***WARNING:The Following statement is not in keeping with Lore forum philosophies***

I'm truly sorry about saying this, but given the fact that the story of GW is generally really shallow, don't you think it's possible the Dev's simply re-used models?

Then again, if everything said here is true, and it may very well be (good find btw), I doubt any of these connections will ever be verified in the future. I asked Gaile last night whether any of the future chapters would allow us to return to previous areas (such as reclaiming Ascalon) and she said that each new chapter will send us off to a new land. :/

Oh well, don't let me bother you :) it's always fun and interesting to read the Lore forum.

False Visage
16-04-2006, 13:50
Yes, it's entirely possible the Devs just reused the models...but that's a *boring* explanation and lacks creativity.

Timmdor
17-04-2006, 22:02
This could be a battle between Heaven and Hell. Those who turned away from the Old Gods went to Hell and became members of the Shadow Army while the people who serve the Old Gods become members of heaven's army. The White Mantle turned away and that maybe why the shadow army looks like the White Mantle.

Brainbasher
26-04-2006, 09:34
maybe everyone on tyria cast a shadow of their soul into the mists. It is called the "shadow" army so maybe they are the shadows cast by the evil people on tyria, and the white mantle are not the nicest people on earth...

Cealin De Rythia
04-05-2006, 19:58
We don't actually know the Mursaat came up with it. Maybe the Shadow Army had it first, and one of the Mursaat sages somehow managed to see it, and they copied it for themselves and their minions.

Melly
04-06-2006, 16:36
Do we know the White Mantle emblem was created by Saul or other Mantle members? Maybe it is some type of Mursaat emblem assigned to the Mantle.

spondy
21-08-2006, 02:20
My two cents.

The shadow army came up with their various designs which we recognise as Mantle. The Mursaat ventured into FoW by whatever means, and having at that point turned away from the old gods, saw the conflict and "picked sides" with the shadow army.

When Saul came along they gave him his white robes with gold lace (something like that) which reflected what the Mursaat saw with the shadow army. Saul was a disciple, the Mursaat gave him instructions, which may well have been to create the Mantle in the image of the shadow army. If you will, the Mursaat are helping the fight against the old gods by creating a "shadow-shadow army" (get yourself around that one :P) in the mortal realm.

Nemeon Lion
27-08-2006, 14:50
have you thought that maybe this is some kind of " recycling " the already existing models in order to create more?

For example. The Bladed Ataxes in UW look, move and roar exactly like the minotaurs. Does that mean that Dhum ( or whoever is corrupting the UW ) controls the minotaurs all over the world and that they are evil? Maybe A-net just used the minotaur model, added some spikes in the back, red glowing eyes and painted black. There! You got a new mob.

Maybe its the same thing with these Shadow Mantle. Of course i could be uterly wrong but its probably the simple possibility that you can imagine: recycling.

lol!! :laugh:

The Experimentor
27-08-2006, 15:19
I subscribe to the recycled theory. It's just more practical on ANet's part.

But that said, ANet could have also chosen hit two birds with one stone. Connecting the Shadow Army to the White Mantle would be cool. Look at all the speculation and research we've done so far in this thread. :cool:

My own $0.02: Grenth is among the gods the White Mantle rejected. As caretaker of the dead (as Brother Bilshan of LA says), what do you expect him to do with people who dissed him and his divine fellows off? :wink: Seriously speaking, dumping them in the FoW is a just afterlife not just for their disrespect and disbelief but also for their persecution and repression of those who are loyal to Grenth and others of the pantheon.

Perhaps Grenth does send off the more noble White Mantle to the better places in the Mists, or perhaps even to the Hall of Heroes ("Grenth be just"- Grenth is a god of judgement and justice, not just death), but you can expect guys like Hablion and Dorian to be sent off to the FoW or likewise following their post-death confrontation with the gods that they've long denied and mocked who apparently do exist.

Jahiri
02-09-2006, 17:59
i dont think they are evil white mantle guys who died and their souls got into the underwold. becouse from what perspective are they evil? evil becouse they wernt good white mantle members, or evil becouse they sacrafised chosen people?
i think that maybe some white mantle managed to ascent and got into the FoW and maybe got traped there. maybe their souls got corrupted by menzies.
or, as quintus said, they are a reflection of the normal white mantle. its quite possible that the FoW is somekind of parallel universe!

dont know if my story makes any sense, but hey.. :)

Crazy Jahiri