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View Full Version : The Dagger FAQ v4.0 (effective DPS versus melee/bow weapons)



shaktiboi
13-04-2006, 18:59
(Part 1 of 3)

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Introduction
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Before the introduction of the Assassin class in GW:Prophecies, comparing the base damage per second (DPS) of the available melee and bow weapons was fairly straightforward. With the introduction of daggers and the Assassin class, however, comparing base weapon DPS becomes much less intuitive because of the following factors:

Base weapon DPS depends on the weapon speed, the weapon’s listed damage range, inherent EAL adjustments such as the 10% base AP for horn bows, the percent chance of crits, and the -20 AL GSM for crits.
Daggers, unlike other weapons, do not have one single speed. Instead, the speed varies depending on your ranks in Dagger Master, ranging from 1.33 seconds per attack at 0 ranks to 1.00 seconds per attack at 16 ranks in Dagger Mastery.
If you are an Assassin primary, the percentage chance of a critical hit (a “crit”) for all weapons is no longer dependent solely on your ranks in the corresponding weapon skill. It is now also affected by your ranks in Critical Strikes, and also by the “Critical Eye” skill.


The facts and derivations used in this FAQ are based on the following sources:

SonOfRah’s excellent Damage Article: http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=157#TDE
Deford’s post in the GWOnline Community forum that explains some inaccuracies in SonOfRah’s essay: http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?p=4004064#post4004064
Pan Sola’s post in the GWOnline Community forum that explains how the threshold for Baseline values is dependent on your character level: http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=378858


Also, I want to give thanks to Arredondo, BLAHHH, Bobross, Bravo, kate sullivan, ShadowKntSDS, Syes, TooBadUnknown, Viri, and zampani for their comments and explanations in my previous two versions of the Dagger FAQ (and related threads).


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Corrected Info in this Version of the FAQ
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I’ve replaced the Tables 4-6 in V3 of the FAQ with a single Table 4. In the previous FAQ, I overlooked two important details when calculating DPS for weapon mastery 16:

I didn’t adjust the median damage for a 68 baseline.
I overlooked the obvious fact that a NON-Assassin primary could not possibly get 34% or 40% crit chance because they wouldn’t have access to the Critical Strikes attribute.
I overlooked the obvious fact that an Assassin primary could not possibly achieve 16 ranks in weapon mastery for axes, swords, hammers, and bows.

Based on the revised DPS tables, I also revised my previous conclusions about relative DPS between Assassin, Ranger, and Warrior primaries.
In the section on Dagger Speed, I’ve clarified the relationship of base “attack” speed to effective dagger speed and added a description of how IAS skills like Frenzy affect dagger speed.
In the section on Energy Regen, I’ve added a note that explains how the Critical Strike dual attack skill does indeed give you 2x the energy bonus for crits. I’ve also clarified the exact ranks in Critical Strikes at which you get the +1, +2, or +3 energy bonus.
I’ve made other miscellaneous clarifications here and there.



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The Auto-Attack DPS Tables
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The following tables show the sustained auto-attack DPS for all the melee/ranged weapons with various common attribute values. These DPS values are derived from the base weapon-specific factors in the total Damage Formula, which looks like this (I’m using Deford’s corrected version of SonOfRah’s formula):

Received Damage = (Victim’s Damage Enhancement) x [[(Attacker’s Damage Enhancement) x (Base Damage) x (Armor Modifier)] + (Bonus Damage)]

By weapon-specific factors, I mean the (Base Damage) portion of the formula, coupled with part of the (Armor Modifier) part of the formula. In particular, the (Armor Modifier) contains bits that relate to the -20 AL GSM modifier for critical hits, and also contains bits that relate to the effect of base AP% from Strength and for horn bows.

All of the other factors in the total damage formula will adjust this base[/s] DPS value up or down. For example, a customized weapon (+20% damage enhancement) that also has the +15% damage enhancement when above 50% health both factor into the Attacker’s Damage Enhancement portion of the formula, so all other things being equal, you would increase any of my base DPS numbers by a flat +38% if you had these two mods on your weapon. That’s just one simple example. Regardless, the point is that the numbers I give are based on the weapon-specific factors that DO NOT CHANGE, so they are the best basis for comparison.

TIP: Since most people PvP with a customized 15/50 weapon, you can multiply each of the following DPS values by 1.38 to determine what the auto-attack DPS would be if you are wielding a customized 15/50 weapon.

The first three tables are based on these assumptions:

12 ranks in the corresponding weapon mastery skill. This what many will consider the optimum value, because even though Dagger speed continues to increase at 13 ranks and higher (thereby proportionally increasing DPS relative to other weapons), the improvements to the Baseline portion of the (Armor Modifier) are only 2 per rank instead of 5 per rank) AND you have less attribute points to spend in other useful areas. I will show a 5th table in a following section that compares the DPS at 16 ranks of weapon mastery.
13 ranks in Critical Strikes (for Assassin primaries). This is the optimum value due both to maximizing crit potential, but also to getting +3 energy back per crit because Assassin is an energy-hungry class.


Table 1: Base Weapon DPS for Assassin primaries, WITH Critical Eye running full-time (35% crit chance)


Hammer Base DPS: 19.8
Axe Base DPS: 18.8
Sword Base DPS: 17.2
Dagger Base DPS: 15.1
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 14.0
Horn Bow Base DPS: 11.5
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 11.2


Table 2: Base Weapon DPS for Assassin primaries, WITHOUT Critical Eye (29% crit chance)


Hammer Base DPS: 19.1
Axe Base DPS: 17.8
Sword Base DPS: 16.6
Dagger Base DPS: 14.5
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 13.4
Horn Bow Base DPS: 11.0
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 10.7


Table 3: Base Weapon DPS for non-Assassin primaries with NO Critical Strikes attribute (16% crit chance)


Hammer Base DPS: 17.4
Axe Base DPS: 15.5
Sword Base DPS: 15.4
Dagger Base DPS: 13.0
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 12.2
Horn Bow Base DPS: 10.1
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 9.8


The next three tables are for builds with 16 ranks in the relative weapon Mastery and 13 ranks in Critical Strikes. This is the optimum combination of attributes for a pure DPS dagger-based Assassin primary, because the additional 4 ranks in Dagger Mastery not only increases your Baseline and your chance of crits, but also increases the weapon speed of Daggers even more than 12 ranks, which increases the DPS for daggers proportionally more than for all other weapons. However, note that this leaves you with only 4 attribute points left over for other useful attributes, so this is a highly specialized build without much flexibility.

Table 4: Table 4: Base Weapon DPS for 16 ranks in weapon mastery

** Note: Hammer, Axe, and Sword values are possible ONLY for Warrior primaries. Dagger values are possible ONLY for Assassin primaries. Bow values are possible ONLY for Ranger primaries.
** Note: only Assassins can hit 40% crit rate or 34% crit rate. Non-assassins have no access to Critical Strikes and Critical Eye.



Hammer Base DPS (21% crit): 20.8
Dagger Base DPS (40% crit): 19.5
Axe Base DPS (21% crit): 18.7
Dagger Base DPS (34% crit): 18.6
Sword Base DPS (21% crit): 18.3
Dagger Base DPS (21% crit): 16.8
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS (21% crit): 14.5
Horn Bow Base DPS (21% crit): 11.8
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS (21% crit): 11.6


One final note about relative DPS among the weapons. In general, faster weapons yield more reliable DPS in a short fight. In the time it takes to attack 3 times with a hammer, for example, your typical dagger-based Assassin primary can swing 5 times. If the Assassin gets blocked or evaded 20% of the time, that’s one attack that doesn’t connect. If the hammer user gets blocked or evaded 20% of the time, that’s one hammer attack that doesn’t connect, so the hammer user loses 33% of their damage, while the dagger user loses only 20% of their damage. Many other MMOGs have proved time and again that two weapons might have similar DPS when you do the math, but the faster weapon of the two is always the better choice.

This basic fact is mitigated somewhat by Guild Wars’ implementation of attack skills, but it’s still something to consider if you’re on the fence regarding, say, a decision between daggers and swords (both of which have very similar DPS values). A dagger is significantly faster than a sword at typical values for Dagger Mastery.


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Why Strength Is Not Applicable to DPS Comparisons
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In version 2 of this FAQ, I included tables that showed DPS values for Warrior primaries with 10 ranks in Strength. This was a poor choice because the 10% AP of Strength is applied only to attack skills, not to normal auto-attack damage. Therefore, trying to compare DPS over time for Warriors with Strength is a bad comparison; apples to oranges. Trying to calculate an improvement in overall damage output due to Strength is a tedious proposition.

As a rule of thumb, however, you can safely assume that running a Warrior with 10 ranks in Strength would add relatively little to the overall auto-attack DPS for a 16% critical chance (for 12 ranks in the corresponding weapon mastery) or for a 21% critical chance (for 16 ranks in weapon mastery). The overall DPS that 10 Strength will buy you certainly falls somewhere below the halfway mark between the auto-attack DPS values for 16% and 29% crit chance (for 12 ranks in mastery) or below the halfway mark between the auto-attack DPS values for 21% and 34% crit chance (for 16 ranks in mastery).


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Understanding Dagger Mastery and Dagger Speed
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The Dagger Mastery attribute works like all other weapon mastery attributes in that it affects your Baseline portion of the Armor Modifier:

12 ranks at character level 20 gives you a Baseline of 60. This is optimal.
For each rank below or equal to ((CharLevel / 2) + 2), add 5 to the Baseline.
For each rank above ((CharLevel /2) + 2), add 2 to the Baseline.


Dagger Mastery also works like all other weapon masteries in that it partiallyaffects your base chance to score a critical hit, to the tune of 1 + (1.25 x Attribute). Some examples:

16% at 12 ranks (1+[1.25 x 12] = 16)
12% at 9 ranks (1+[1.25 x 9] = 12.25)
21% at 16 ranks (1+[1.25 x 16] = 21)


The other factor to consider with crit chance % is the relative level of you versus your opponent. If you are exactly the same level, the preceding numbers apply, but if you above or below your opponent’s level, the preceding numbers double or halve every 5 levels in difference, as follows:

For every 5 levels you are above your opponent, your crit chance doubles. For example, if you are level 20, with 12 ranks in your weapon mastery, and your opponent is level 15, your base crit chance is 32%. If your opponent is level 10, your base crit chance is 64%, etc.
For every 5 levels you are below your opponent, your crit chance halves. For example, if you are level 15, with 12 ranks in weapon mastery, and your opponent is 20, your crit chance is 8%.


Where Dagger Mastery does not work like the other weapon masteries is that it also affects the effective speed of your Daggers. The base Dagger speed (the “attack speed”) is the same as swords and axes (1.33 seconds per attack). But for each rank of Dagger Mastery, you also get a 2% chance to strike twice in one attack. If you have 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery, you have a 24% chance on any given attack to strike twice. On average, then, every 100 attacks will yield 124 strikes, which equates to a 24% increase in effective weapon speed.

So a simple formula for determining your effective dagger speed is this:

[b]Dagger Speed = base speed / [1 + (Attribute x .02)]

Some examples, assuming a base speed of 1.33:

9 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.13 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.18)
12 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.07 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.24)
16 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.00 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.32)


Now, before you walk away thinking “with a Dagger speed of 1.00 I’ll be more effective at interrupts”, remember that the base “attack speed” or “swing speed” of a dagger is still 1.33 seconds, just like swords and axes. Keep this in mind when planning a build—your dagger will not actually be attacking once every 1.07 or 1.00 seconds.

NOTE: At this time (pre-Factions), it is not known precisely what happens when a double-strike occurs. One possibility is that you actually “attack” just once at base speed of 1.33 and the two “damage rolls” are just applied at the beginning of the 1.33-second attack interval. So your attack speed never varies from 1.33-second intervals. A second possibility, however, is that when a double-strike occurs, the normal attack interval of 1.33 seconds actually becomes two separate attacks, each taking half of that normal base interval. If this is the case, it fundamentally affects your chance of interrupting the target during a double-strike, because you might be making two separate attacks in that 1.33 second interval. We will not be able to determine which is the case until after Factions comes out.

Why is knowing the effective speed of your dagger important? One obvious reason is that it affects your overall DPS, with faster speeds meaning more DPS than slower speeds. This is why daggers benefit more from ranks 13 – 16 in mastery than all other weapons do.

One point of confusion is how IAS skills like Frenzy are applied to Dagger speed. You must always apply the IAS skill to the base speed (1.33). The resulting new base speed is then used in the preceding formula to calculate your new effective speed.

A less obvious reason is that dagger speed also affects the rate at which you regen energy from your Critical Strikes attribute and from your Critical Eye skill. Which leads us to the next section…

shaktiboi
13-04-2006, 18:59
(Part 2 of 3)

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Understanding the Energy Regen Rate for Assassins
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Assassins are a very energy-hungry class. Our armor has the same base physical AL as Ranger armor (70 AL), but we get two pieces that provide +1 energy regen, for a total of 4 pips of energy regen, just like casters get. (On the downside, we don’t get the 30AL of elemental armor that Rangers get.)

On top of the 4 pips of energy regen provided by our armor (+1.33 energy per second), we also get an energy bonus per crit from the effect of our Critical Strikes attribute and from the use of the Critical Eye skill. Note that only Assassin primaries can reap these bonuses:

Critical Eye gives us +1 energy bonus per crit
13 ranks in Critical Strikes gives us +3 energy bonus per crit
8 ranks in Critical Strikes gives us +2 energy bonus per crit
3 ranks in Critical Strikes gives us +1 energy per crit
Critical Eye stacks with Critical Strikes, so at 13 ranks in Critical Strikes and with Critical Eye running, you get a total energy bonus of +4 energy per crit


NOTE: Due to a poorly-written description for the Critical Strike dual-attack skill, some players will argue that you do not get the energy bonus for using this skill. They are wrong. You get two guaranteed critical hits, and each critical will yield the energy bonus. So you can get up to +8 energy per use of this dual-attack skill.

The formula to figure your additional energy regen rate from crits is this, and again, this formula applies only to Assassin primaries:

+Pips = [(Crit Chance % x Energy Bonus) / Dagger Speed] / 0.33

Where:

Pips (also called “ticks”) is the energy per second regen rate from your crits translated into energy par pips (each pip is +0.33 regen per second)
Crit Chance is the decimal value of your total percentage crit chance
Energy Bonus is the total stacked energy bonus per crit from Critical Strikes and Critical Eye


Also remember that you must ADD this “+Pips” value to your basic 4 pips that you get from your inherent energy regen plus the regen bonuses on your assassin armor.

Some examples:

+4.4 Pips (1.44 energy per second) for 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery, 13 ranks in Critical Strikes and Critical Eye running full time during battle (([0.35 x 4] / 1.07) / 0.33). The 12 ranks of Dagger Mastery gives you 1.07 dagger speed and a 16% base crit chance. The 13 ranks in Critical Strikes gives you 3 energy bonus and another 13% crit chance. The Critical Eye gives you 1 energy bonus (stackable), plus another 6% crit chance (stackable). Your total crit chance is therefore 35% and your total energy bonus is therefore 4. Total Pips = 8.4 when auto-attacking.
+2.7 Pips ( 0.89 energy per second) for the same stats as above, only with no Critical Eye running (([0.29 x 3] / 1.07) / 0.33). This drops your crit chance by 6% and your energy bonus by 1. Total Pips = 6.7 when auto-attacking.
+3.2 Pips (1.05 energy per second) for 12 ranks in Axe Mastery, 13 ranks in Critical Strikes and Critical Eye running full time during battle (([0.35 x 4] / 1.33) / 0.33). The 12 ranks of Axe Mastery gives you 1.33 weapon speed and a 16% base crit chance. The 13 ranks in Critical Strikes gives you 3 energy bonus and another 13% crit chance. The Critical Eye gives you 1 energy bonus (stackable), plus another 6% crit chance (stackable). Your total crit chance is therefore 35% and your total energy bonus is therefore 4. Total Pips = 7.2 when auto-attacking.
+1.4 Pips (0.47 energy per second) for 9 ranks in Dagger Mastery, 12 ranks in Critical Strikes, and no Critical Eye running (([0.24 x 2] / 1.13) / 0.33). The 9 ranks of Dagger Mastery gives you 1.13 dagger speed and a 12% base crit chance. The 12 ranks in Critical Strikes gives you 2 energy bonus and another 12% crit chance. Your total crit chance is therefore 24% and your total energy bonus is therefore 2. Total Pips = 5.4 when auto-attacking.
+4.8 Pips (1.60 energy per second) for 16 ranks in Dagger Mastery, 13 ranks in Critical Strikes and Critical Eye running full time during battle (([0.40 x 4] / 1.00) / 0.33). The 16 ranks of Dagger Mastery gives you 1.00 dagger speed and a 21% base crit chance. The 13 ranks in Critical Strikes gives you 3 energy bonus and another 13% crit chance. The Critical Eye gives you 1 energy bonus (stackable), plus another 6% crit chance (stackable). Your total crit chance is therefore 40% and your total energy bonus is therefore 4. Total Pips = 8.8 when auto-attacking.


As you can see from the examples, the total energy regen rate provided by your critical strikes can vary quite widely depending on your Weapon Mastery (and effective speed) and Critical Strikes attributes, and depending on whether or not you can fit Critical Eye into your build. Hitting rank 13 in Critical Strikes is an especially important “sweet spot” that significantly affects your regen rate, and Critical Eye also has a dramatic effect. (Note that 16 Dagger Mastery versus only 12 Dagger Mastery, however, does not yield a significant difference in energy regen.) Also, the comparison between Daggers and Axes highlights the effect of daggers’ faster weapon speed on your total energy regen rate.


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Expertise Versus Critical Strikes
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Which yields better energy efficiency? Expertise or Critical Strikes? This has been a hotly-debated subject (previously argued with a fair amount of well-meaning disinformation), and will continue to be a hotly-debated subject.

Let’s start with some key differences between the two attributes:

Expertise

”Earns” energy for you only when firing off non-spell, non-enchant, non-hex skills.
”Front-loaded” energy savings that enables you to get off more skills in a rapid chain before you run out of energy.
Best thought of as reducing the cost of certain skills by roughly half (at optimal values of 13 Expertise).


Critical Strikes

”Earns” energy only when you are auto-attacking or using attack skills. Note that auto-attack doesn’t happen if you are running all over chasing a fleeing target.
”Back-loaded” energy savings that doesn’t help you to get off more skills in a rapid chain.
Best thought of as a means of higher, more constant energy regen over time during battle only! (provided you aren’t wasting a lot of time chasing targets around).


To accurately compare Expertise and Critical Strikes, we must first examine an Assassin primary that is not using the Critical Eye skill. Let’s look at two common values for Dagger Mastery that most folks are likely to take: 12 ranks and 16 ranks. (See the previous section if you don’t understand the math.)

+3.5 pips (0.81 energy per second) for 12 Dagger Mastery and 13 Critical Strikes. (([0.29 x 3] / 1.07) / 0.33) + 1
+4.4 pips (1.02 energy per second) for 16 Dagger Mastery and 13 Critical Strikes. (([0.34 x 3] / 1.00) / 0.33) + 1


So one way to make a rough comparison between Expertise and Critical Strikes is this:


Determine the recharge time of your attack chain. (For example, you can repeat it every 12 seconds.)
Add up the energy savings that a value of 13 Expertise will confer to your attack chain. Don’t forget to add in the “extra” attacks that the front-loaded savings of Expertise would enable you to perform before running out of energy.
Divide the total energy savings by the recharge time of your attack chain.
If the result is even close to 1.15, you’ll probably get way more bang for the buck with Expertise, and you should consider whether an Ra/A build will work for you. Remember that in real battle, especially PvP battle, you will not actually achieve those +3.5 or +4.4 pips with Critical Strikes because you will certainly have some “down time” chasing runners. In fact, for PvP builds I’d make that comparison number more like 0.6 to 0.7.


Another more fuzzy way to compare Expertise and Critical Strikes is this:

Expertise works in your favor when you have a long, expensive attack chain that tends to run out your energy bar immediately. Critical Strikes works in your favor if your attack chain is short and energy-cheap, or if your attack chain has moderate amounts of downtime where you are waiting for the next hotkey to recharge.


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Dual Attacks Versus Double Strikes
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There are two different types of “double hit” damage that daggers can do:


Dual attacks -- these are the attack skills called “Dual”
Double strikes – these are the random double hits that occur during auto-attacks, and their percent chance of occurrence is based on your ranks in Dagger Mastery (2% per rank) and some enchant skills can boost this percentage further.


Dual attacks always hit twice. Each hit’s damage amount is evaluated separately, so one of the hits might crit and the other might do damage based on a random roll in the weapon’s listed damage range. The bonus damage and other effects of the dual hit, however are always applied twice. So a dual attack with a bonus of +18 damage will in fact incur a total bonus of +36.

It is unverified at this time (mid April 2006) whether the damage amount for double strikes are evaluated separately.

It is also unverified (but strongly believed) whether single attack skills of any sort (lead, off-hand, AOE, etc.) can double-strike. The current belief is that single attack skills never double strike, and that only auto-attacks have a chance to double-strike.


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Comparing Assassin Spike Damage Versus Other Classes
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There has been much argument over whether Assassins can equal the damage output of Rangers or Warriors, especially in terms of “spike” damage. I have even argued in the past that dagger spike output is probably considerably less than for other weapons. This might not actually be the case, however.

Spike damage output has two components:


How much damage you can pile on in one combo skill chain
How rapidly the combo chain recharges so that you can apply it again


People look at the big damage bonuses on some Axe and Hammer skills, for example, which are literally twice the amount of most Dagger skills, and they conclude that obviously, Dagger spike damage output is inferior to what you can achieve with Warrior weapons. What is less obvious is that the three different types of dagger attacks can be very rapidly spammed, compared to most non-dagger skills which require rage to regenerate after each attack in the combo chain.

I don’t have the stamina to perform an exhaustive analysis of dagger spike combos versus non-dagger spike combos, but I will point out the simple fact that you can instantly chain-cast a Lead attack and an Off-Hand attack as fast as you can press your hotkeys, and if you add up the damage bonus on most Lead and Off-Hand attacks, the cumulative damage bonus is roughly equal to the big damage bonuses you see on a single axe or hammer attack.

I’ll also point out the fact that a Dual attack strikes twice. That means the damage bonus is also applied twice. So you are getting 2x the normal “auto-attack” damage (with crit potential) AND you are getting 2x the listed bonus. That can equate to some hefty damage from some Dual attacks, to rival anything Axes and Hammers have.

My hunch, therefore, is that Assassin primaries can devise damage combos that can come very close to, or even exceed, the single-instance spike damage of Warrior or Ranger primaries.

My other hunch is that Assassin primaries can NOT equal the sustained spike output of Warriors or Rangers unless the Assassin invests heavily in Critical Strikes and tries to fit Critical Eye into their build, in order to maximize their total energy regen rate to 5 pips or better. The reason I suspect this requirement is necessary for sustained spike output is because all the Assassin skills are very energy-hungry. To repeat your spike combos as often as they recharge requires a lot of energy.

I would love it somebody could post a comprehensive analysis of spike damage, both in one instance and sustained over time, between Assassins and other classes. This is an area that still needs investigation.

shaktiboi
13-04-2006, 19:00
(Part 3 of 3)


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Conclusions
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Some interesting conclusions can be drawn from the information in the preceding sections. Some of these conclusions are simple facts, while others are subjective interpretations of my own. Your interpretations might be different, or you might reach some useful conclusions that I didn’t think of. Please share your interpretations in replies to this thread for everyone’s benefit.

Note: Where I mention “DPS” in the following list, I’m talking only about the base auto-attack DPS provided by your normal weapon attacks. Total DPS is dependent on the other skills you use in combat.


For builds that run 12 ranks in the relevant weapon mastery, an Assassin primary can do more DPS with hammers, axes, swords, and bows than any Warrior or Ranger primary with those same weapons. This makes obvious sense because Assassin primaries have access to a higher crit chance, which equals more DPS.

For builds that run 16 ranks in the relevant weapon mastery, however, a Warrior primary can do more DPS with hammers and swords (but less DPS with Axes) than an Assassin primary could do with those same weapons. Likewise, a Ranger primary can do more DPS with bows than an Assassin primary could.

When comparing the DPS of daggers to all other weapons:

At 12 ranks in the relevant weapon mastery, Dagger DPS for an Assassin primary is less than Hammer, Axe, and Sword DPS for a Warrior primary if the Assassin is not running Critical Eye. With Critical Eye running, however, Dagger DPS can come very close to the DPS of Axes and Swords., but almost equal with Axe and Sword DPS for a Warrior primary. Compared to Ranger primaries, however, Dagger DPS is higher than bow DPS across the board regardless of Crit chance.
At 16 ranks in the relevant weapon mastery, Dagger DPS for an Assassin primary is less than Hammer DPS for a Warrior primary, but roughly equal to Axe and Sword DPS if the Assassin is not running Critical Eye. With Critical Eye running, however, Dagger DPS is much higher than Axes and Swords. Compared to Ranger primaries, however, Dagger DPS is higher than bow DPS across the board regardless of Crit chance.
Dagger DPS for a 12-rank Assassin primary is higher than Bow DPS for a 16-rank Ranger primary for every bow type except Horn Bows. For Horn Bows, 13 ranks in Critical Strikes makes Dagger DPS equal with Horn Bow DPS, and running Critical Eye makes Dagger DPS higher than Horn Bow DPS.


Players considering an A/W build that does *not* use Dagger weapons should ask themselves whether giving up high physical AL (from Warrior armor and Shield) is worth the access to higher weapon DPS, tactical teleport and shutdown skills, and +2 to +6.8 pips of additional energy regen. If the energy regen rate is an important factor, you can get +2 pips of regen “for free” just by dint of having Assassin armor, but to get +6.8 additional pips of regen, you’ll need to put a lot of points into Critical Strikes and plan to use Critical Eye in your build. The loss of Strength-related DPS should not even be a factor in your decision, as it is a minimal loss.

Players considering an A/Ra build should ask themselves whether giving up 30 elemental AL (from Ranger Armor) and giving up the front-loaded energy-efficiency of Expertise is worth the access to higher weapon DPS, tactical teleport and shutdown skills, and +1 to +5.8 pips of additional back-loaded energy regen. Many high-Expertise Ranger primary builds that rely on skills that benefit from Expertise are probably more energy-efficient than anything you could do with an A/Ra build. IMO if you like the combination of Ranger and Assassin skills, I’d look carefully at Ra/A builds first.

Players who are concerned about spike damage should remember that they need to look at how fast they can pull off a 2- to 5-part dagger combo, and how often they can repeat it, versus pulling off their favorite non-dagger combo. Remember to add up all the seemingly small damage bonuses on those dagger attacks, and remember that dual attacks always strike twice for 2x the normal and 2x bonus damage. IMO the spike output of a dagger-based Assassin primary can at least equal, if not exceed, most Warrior or Ranger primary classes. There’s a reason we’re more squishy than both warriors and rangers.



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My Personal Observations From The Factions Preview Event
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During FPE, I mostly played an A/Mo that had no points in Monk attributes, and only one Monk skill on the toolbar (Rebirth). I did this because I wanted to see how a mostly “pure” Assassin would perform.

Even though I was at level 20, I had only 9 ranks in Dagger Mastery for most of my builds, which provided a less-than-optimal Base Value for my overall DPS, not to mention a less-than-optimal dagger speed and crit chance. I did this because I was heavily testing higher values in Shadow Arts and Deadly Arts and didn’t want to take away from my Critical Strikes value of 12 ranks. (And note that with CS of 12, I was getting an energy bonus of only 2 per crit).

Despite my low baseline and my lower-than-optimal energy bonus from crits, I STILL tore up foes and performed very well as a tank in PvE quests with a mostly-henchman party (and my wife as the only other PC). I would usually charge in first, not even bothering to send my henchmen in first to take the heat. I did all the target calling, and I certainly took a lot of the initial “alpha” onslaught from each new group of foes.

I rarely died, even when performing this role that an Assassin was not designed for. And even with mostly dim-witted henchmen in the party.

What I found is that you can be QUITE survivable as a pure Assassin even when charging in first, because you have so many nice self-healing, damage mitigation, and teleport tactics available to you. So my advice regarding your secondary class if you want to play an assassin primary is:


If you solo or duo with one partner (with the rest of the group composed of henchment) and your focus is mostly PvE exploration and questing, then go with a Monk or Ritualist secondary, don't waste any attribute points on Monk or Ritualist attributes, and just keep one reusable rez (Rebirth or Flesh of My Flesh) on your toolbar. You'll still rock as a meleer, but you'll be able to recover the team from the many deaths than tend to occur during PvE missions.
If your focus is mostly PvE but you regularly team with large groups of real players so you don't need a repeatable rez, then go with an A/W build if you enjoy having many options for tactical melee fighting. You'll be able to use every melee weapon and its associated skills as suits your mood. Some people might think that an A/Ra or an Ra/A is fun and useful, but IMO, the main strength (and fun!) of an Assassin is tactical mobility to get in and out on certain targets, and Rangers don't need that ability.
If your focus is mostly PvP, look for any secondary that gives you nice spike combos and still leaves room for some shadow-stepping tactical skills. For example, A/Me is particularly nice with Mantra of Signets > Palm Strike > Blinding Powder > Signet of Shadows > Signet of Shadows for a 200-point opening damage spike, which you can follow 12 seconds later with Palm Strike > Repeated Strike and just keep spamming Repeated Strike till you run out of energy or Repeated Strike finally misses. This leaves you two slots for nice Assassin utility skills.



================================================
OTHER USEFUL INFO AND DERIVATIONS ==================================================


Axes, Swords, and Daggers all have a base weapon speed of 1.33 seconds per strike. (But Dagger Mastery effectively increases the weapon speed of daggers as described in a preceding section.)
Hammers have a weapon speed of 1.75 seconds per strike.
Bows have a weapon speed of 2.0 (short/flat), 2.5 (long/comp), and 2.7 (horn) seconds per strike.
Horn bows have a base armor penetration (AP) of 10%.
Strength confers a base AP of 1% per rank in Strength.
Base damage per strike for all weapon types is calculated the same way.
The base weapon damage number used in damage calculations is ALWAYS a random value from the weapon's listed damage range. (You do not use higher values from the range as your corresponding weapon skill increases; instead, your damage is greater because of the relative level of your weapon skill versus the target's AL and other defensive attributes.)
Critical hits always use the maximum value of the weapon's damage range and the target's EAL value is reduced by -20 AL GSM; other than those two exceptions, critical damage is calculated like normal damage. (So crits do not ignore armor or do double-damage or ignore relative attack/defense levels, etc. as they do in other MMOGs.)
SonOfRah’s explanation of positional damage and shield positional defense is no longer correct. Shield AL is applied from all sides when attacked. The same damage is incurred no matter what positional facing you use during attacks. (This info isn’t directly relevant to this Dagger FAQ, but it’s good info discovered by Deford that I want to make sure gets passed around.


Using all the facts from this and preceding sections, we can make the following derivations, based on SonOfRah’s damage formulas:



================================================== ===================
THE FOLLOWING DERIVATIONS ARE ALL BASED ON A WEAPON SKILL OF 12 RANKS
================================================== ===================

Critical Damage Modifier (-20 AL): 2^[[60-(60-20)]/40] = 1.4142
Horn Bow Median Damage Modifier (10% AP): 2^[[60-(60x0.9)]/40] = 1.1096
Horn Bow Crit Dam Modifier (10% AP, -20 AL): 2^[[60-([60x0.9]-20)]/40] = 1.5692

Hammer Damage Range: 19-35
Hammer Median Damage: 27 ( 19 + [[35 - 19] / 2] )
Hammer Critical Damage: 49 ( 35 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Hammer DPS (35% crit): 19.8 ( [[27 * .65] + [49 * .35]] / 1.75 )
Hammer DPS (29% crit): 19.1 ( [[27 * .71] + [49 * .29]] / 1.75 )
Hammer DPS (16% crit): 17.4 ( [[27 * .84] + [49 * .16]] / 1.75 )


Axe Damage Range: 6-28
Axe Median Damage: 17 ( 6 + [[28 - 6] / 2] )
Axe Critical Damage: 40 ( 28 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Axe DPS (35% crit): 18.8 ( [[17 * .65] + [40 * .35]] / 1.33 )
Axe DPS (29% crit): 17.8 ( [[17 * .71] + [40 * .29]] / 1.33 )
Axe DPS (16% crit): 15.5 ( [[17 * .84] + [40 * .16]] / 1.33 )

Sword Damage Range: 15-22
Sword Median Damage: 18.5 ( 15 + [[22 - 15] / 2] )
Sword Critical Damage: 31 ( 22 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Sword DPS (35% crit): 17.2 ( [[18.5 * .65] + [31 * .35]] / 1.33 )
Sword DPS (29% crit): 16.6 ( [[18.5 * .71] + [31 * .29]] / 1.33 )
Sword DPS (16% crit): 15.4 ( [[18.5 * .84] + [31 * .16]] / 1.33 )

Dagger Damage Range: 7-17
Dagger Median Damage: 12 ( 7 + [[17 - 7] / 2] )
Dagger Critical Damage: 24 ( 17 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Dagger DPS (35% crit): 15.1 ( [[12 * .65] + [24 * .35]] / 1.07 )
Dagger DPS (29% crit): 14.5 ( [[12 * .71] + [24 * .29]] / 1.07 )
Dagger DPS (16% crit): 13.0 ( [[12 * .84] + [24 * .16]] / 1.07 )

Bow Damage Range: 15-28
Bow Median Damage: 21.5 ( 15 + [[28 - 15] / 2] )
Bow Critical Damage: 40 ( 28 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Horn Bow Median Damage: 24 ( 21.5 * 1.1096 ) ! 10% AP
Horn Bow Critical Damage: 44 ( 28 * 1.5692 ) ! -20 AL and 10% AP

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (35% crit): 14.0 ( [[21.5 * .65] + [40 * .35]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (35% crit): 11.5 ( [[24 * .65] + [44 * .35]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (35% crit): 11.2 ( [[21.5 * .65] + [40 * .35]] / 2.5 )

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (29% crit): 13.4 ( [[21.5 * .71] + [40 * .29]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (29% crit): 11.0 ( [[24 * .71] + [44 * .29]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (29% crit): 10.7 ( [[21.5 * .71] + [40 * .29]] / 2.5 )

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (16% crit): 12.2 ( [[21.5 * .84] + [40 * .16]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (16% crit): 10.1 ( [[24 * .84] + [44 * .16]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (16% crit): 9.8 ( [[21.5 * .84] + [40 * .16]] / 2.5 )


================================================== ===================
THE FOLLOWING DERIVATIONS ARE ALL BASED ON A WEAPON SKILL OF 16 RANKS
================================================== ===================

** Only Daggers can achieve 40% and 34% crit values!!!

Median Damage Modifier (68 baseline): 2^[[68-(60- 0)]/40] = 1.1486
Critical Damage Modifier (-20 AL): 2^[[68-(60-20)]/40] = 1.6245
Horn Bow Median Damage Modifier (10% AP): 2^[[68-(60x0.9)]/40] = 1.2745
Horn Bow Crit Dam Modifier (10% AP, -20 AL): 2^[[68-([60x0.9]-20)]/40] = 1.8025

Hammer Median Damage: 31 ( 27 * 1.1486)
Hammer Critical Damage: 57 ( 35 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Hammer DPS (21% crit): 20.8 ( [[31 * .79] + [57 * .21]] / 1.75 )

Axe Median Damage: 19.5 ( 17 * 1.1486)
Axe Critical Damage: 45 ( 28 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Axe DPS (21% crit): 18.7 ( [[19.5 * .79] + [45 * .21]] / 1.33 )

Sword Median Damage: 21.2 ( 18.5 * 1.1486)
Sword Critical Damage: 36 ( 22 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Sword DPS (21% crit): 18.3 ( [[21.2 * .79] + [36 * .21]] / 1.33 )

Dagger Median Damage: 13.8 ( 12 * 1.1486)
Dagger Critical Damage: 28 ( 17 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Dagger DPS (40% crit): 19.5 ( [[13.8 * .60] + [28 * .40]] / 1.00 )
Dagger DPS (34% crit): 18.6 ( [[13.8 * .66] + [28 * .34]] / 1.00 )
Dagger DPS (21% crit): 16.8 ( [[13.8 * .79] + [28 * .21]] / 1.00 )

Bow Median Damage: 24.7 ( 21.5 * 1.1486)
Bow Critical Damage: 45 ( 28 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Horn Bow Median Damage: 27 ( 21.5 * 1.2745 ) ! 10% AP
Horn Bow Critical Damage: 50 ( 28 * 1.8025 ) ! -20 AL and 10% AP

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (21% crit): 14.5 ( [[24.7 * .79] + [45 * .21]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (21% crit): 11.8 ( [[27 * .79] + [50 * .21]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (21% crit): 11.6 ( [[24.7 * .79] + [45 * .21]] / 2.5 )

Zii The Mad
05-05-2006, 13:22
Free excellence bump.

jvxmtg
06-05-2006, 21:48
There's too much to read but I don't believe that you cover the fact that Dagger Mastery gives you an X% chance per rank to hit twice without using any skills.

When I started with my Assassin and I still don't have any combo skill, while I was waiting for my one skill to recharge, my Assassin simply attacked twice on it's own skipping the normal attack delay of 1.33s.

zampani
06-05-2006, 23:05
There's too much to read but I don't believe that you cover the fact that Dagger Mastery gives you an X% chance per rank to hit twice without using any skills.
Yeah, this is covered. Check the section titled "Understanding Dagger Mastery and Dagger Speed" for more info, but in effect the random chance of performing a double strike with your daggers increases as your DM goes up and can be simulated in the calculations by increasing the relative speed of the weapon as compared to the unmodified value (as already included in the calculations above).

hahnsoo
07-05-2006, 03:26
There's too much to read but I don't believe that you cover the fact that Dagger Mastery gives you an X% chance per rank to hit twice without using any skills.
It's listed as:
Double strikes – these are the random double hits that occur during auto-attacks, and their percent chance of occurrence is based on your ranks in Dagger Mastery (2% per rank) and some enchant skills can boost this percentage further.

Please take the time to read an article before making any criticisms.

jvxmtg
08-05-2006, 22:12
It's listed as:
Double strikes – these are the random double hits that occur during auto-attacks, and their percent chance of occurrence is based on your ranks in Dagger Mastery (2% per rank) and some enchant skills can boost this percentage further.

Please take the time to read an article before making any criticisms.

I'm not actually criticizing I just thought you missed it. Thanks for pointing it, I somehow skipped that big chunk of your article.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
08-05-2006, 23:42
One final note about relative DPS among the weapons. In general, faster weapons yield more reliable DPS in a short fight. In the time it takes to attack 3 times with a hammer, for example, your typical dagger-based Assassin primary can swing 5 times. If the Assassin gets blocked or evaded 20% of the time, that’s one attack that doesn’t connect. If the hammer user gets blocked or evaded 20% of the time, that’s one hammer attack that doesn’t connect, so the hammer user loses 33% of their damage, while the dagger user loses only 20% of their damage. Many other MMOGs have proved time and again that two weapons might have similar DPS when you do the math, but the faster weapon of the two is always the better choice.

Mathematically, this is incorrect. If you swing 5 times, you have a better chance to be blocked than if you swing 3 times. If they dodge 20% of the time, you have a (hypothetically) 100% to be blocked once, which means you will PROBABLY be blocked once. If you swing three times, you have a 3/5 chance to be blocked.

Another note is that I'm sure spike groups would rather have a warrior hit 1 time for 1000 damage every 20 seconds than 50 damage every second, because there is no way a monk could heal to this.

shaktiboi
09-05-2006, 00:02
Mathematically, this is incorrect. If you swing 5 times, you have a better chance to be blocked than if you swing 3 times. If they dodge 20% of the time, you have a (hypothetically) 100% to be blocked once, which means you will PROBABLY be blocked once. If you swing three times, you have a 3/5 chance to be blocked.

Another note is that I'm sure spike groups would rather have a warrior hit 1 time for 1000 damage every 20 seconds than 50 damage every second, because there is no way a monk could heal to this.

I'm sorry but you're dead wrong on this point. This is a basic flaw in logical thinking that every student of statistics runs into.

A 20% chance to block is equally applied to each and every attack. Separately. Just because you have 5 attacks versus 3 attacks... it makes no difference. For each attack the chance of blocking is a flat 20%. There is no multiplicative effect.

Again, this is a basic lesson learned and understood in other MMOGs. Given equal DPS, the faster weapon is ALWAYS better.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
09-05-2006, 22:09
I'm sorry but you're dead wrong on this point. This is a basic flaw in logical thinking that every student of statistics runs into.

A 20% chance to block is equally applied to each and every attack. Separately. Just because you have 5 attacks versus 3 attacks... it makes no difference. For each attack the chance of blocking is a flat 20%. There is no multiplicative effect.

Again, this is a basic lesson learned and understood in other MMOGs. Given equal DPS, the faster weapon is ALWAYS better.
I'm sorry, but your dead wrong in this point. This is a basic flaw in logical thinking that you have run into.

A 20% chance to block is equally applied to each and every attack. Separately. Therefore, if you have 5 attacks versus 3 attacks... it makes no difference in the 20%. However, it does make a difference in the chance for a certain number of attacks will be blocked.

Let me give you an example to help understand it. Lets make it more drastic, just so you can see what I'm saying.

Lets say you have Weapon A which hits for 100000 damage every 1 second. There is a [20%] chance this attack will be blocked. You also have a weapon B which hits for 1 damage every .000001 of a second. So in one second, it hits 1000000 times, but only for 1 damage each. There, once again, is a [20%] chance this attack will be blocked. Now, lets say you hit for 1 second with weapon A, and 1 second with weapon B. If what you are saying is true, there is an equal chance that one hit will be blocked with weapon A as there is with B. However, this is obviously NOT the case. Think of how many attacks would be blocked with weapon B on. Theoretically, 5000 attacks, which would basically means you have a HUGE chance that one attack will be blocked, and most likely 5000 attacks will be blocked. Think of the chance your single attack with weapon A on would be blocked: 20%, HOWEVER, if you are blocked, you will do no damage at all, compared to the quick weapon which still will hit alot of times in that second. This is the sacrifice you have to take, there is more risk but more reward with the slow weapon.

I see what you are thinking... that there is always a 20% chance that a single hit will be blocked. However, we are talking about SPEED, which means there will be more hits, and thus a higher chance that one of them will be blocked. If we were talking about SINGLE HITS, what you are saying would be true.

I hope I helped you understand this, and I think you will understand it more as you think about it more. You can argue your side all you want, but anyone with a doctoral degree will back me up.

shaktiboi
09-05-2006, 22:32
I hope I helped you understand this, and I think you will understand it more as you get older.

Sigh... No need for the petty jabs. I'm 44 if you must know, in a technical field. And btw I aced stats-related courses in university and work with stats-related issues in my field.

Let me rephrase it in basic PvP gaming terms. You have two melee chars. Both use weapons whose stats work out to the same DPS, but in the duration of a normal 1 vs. 1 fight, player A gets in 5 attacks, while player B gets in 3 attacks.

With a 20% chance to block, for example, Player A can count on 1 of his 5 attacks missing, on average. Player B can count on 0.6 of his 3 attacks missing, on average. Now flip that around: Player A can count on at least 4 of his attacks hitting, on average, while Player B can count on at least 2 of his attacks hitting, on average.

Think about it.

Now I'll spell it out for you in case you still don't see the point... Sorry to be pedantic here but since your last reply was somewhat rude, I guess I don't feel so bad about it.

Assume the overall DPS for each player during the course of a fight is 100 damage. Just to keep the numbers even (no relation to actual damage numbers in GW).

Player A does 20 damage per attack.

Player B does 33 damage per attack.

So add it up and you can see that Player A can depend on 80 damage per fight, while Player B can depend on only 66 damage per fight.

The crux of the matter here is *dependability*. A faster weapon is simply more dependable. You have a better idea of what your true damage output will be in every fight, and most importantly, your damage output is far more *consistent* in fights. Yes, in actuality, Player B will experience some fights where all three attacks hit, and in that case he does better than Player A. But in the fights where one of his attacks miss, it HURTS A LOT MORE.

Again, this isn't just theorycraft. This is how it works in real games. I played hardcore PvP on Darktide in Asheron's Call 1 and 2, for example. Any player there would instantly tell you that a faster weapon was better, given the same DPS. Same for Anarchy Online. Why? Because when your ability to win a fight is based on a lucky streak (i.e., not missing with that one big attack), you are not nearly as dependable a teammate as someone who knows their damage output and can better guage whether or not they're going to vanquish the foe first. When you fight with a "lucky" weapon, you never *really* know when to cut and run, or when to call for help, or when to alert your team that you're going down, etc. When you fight with a consistent weapon, you know the exact situation at all times.

Granted, there are some games where armor works in an absorptive way, in which case sometimes the bigger hitting but slower weapons were the better choice in some matchups simply because more damage got through the armor when you did make a hit. Faster weaps would deal less actual damage because too much of the weapon output was absorbed by the armor per hit.

But Guild Wars doesn't have absorptive armor. AL here is essentially just a defensive stat used in a "to-hit formula" manner.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
10-05-2006, 01:11
Sigh... No need for the petty jabs. I'm 44 if you must know, in a technical field. And btw I aced stats-related courses in university and work with stats-related issues in my field.

Let me rephrase it in basic PvP gaming terms. You have two melee chars. Both use weapons whose stats work out to the same DPS, but in the duration of a normal 1 vs. 1 fight, player A gets in 5 attacks, while player B gets in 3 attacks.

With a 20% chance to block, for example, Player A can count on 1 of his 5 attacks missing, on average. Player B can count on 0.6 of his 3 attacks missing, on average. Now flip that around: Player A can count on at least 4 of his attacks hitting, on average, while Player B can count on at least 2 of his attacks hitting, on average.

Think about it.

Now I'll spell it out for you in case you still don't see the point... Sorry to be pedantic here but since your last reply was somewhat rude, I guess I don't feel so bad about it.

Assume the overall DPS for each player during the course of a fight is 100 damage. Just to keep the numbers even (no relation to actual damage numbers in GW).

Player A does 20 damage per attack.

Player B does 33 damage per attack.

So add it up and you can see that Player A can depend on 80 damage per fight, while Player B can depend on only 66 damage per fight.

The crux of the matter here is *dependability*. A faster weapon is simply more dependable. You have a better idea of what your true damage output will be in every fight, and most importantly, your damage output is far more *consistent* in fights. Yes, in actuality, Player B will experience some fights where all three attacks hit, and in that case he does better than Player A. But in the fights where one of his attacks miss, it HURTS A LOT MORE.

Again, this isn't just theorycraft. This is how it works in real games. I played hardcore PvP on Darktide in Asheron's Call 1 and 2, for example. Any player there would instantly tell you that a faster weapon was better, given the same DPS. Same for Anarchy Online. Why? Because when your ability to win a fight is based on a lucky streak (i.e., not missing with that one big attack), you are not nearly as dependable a teammate as someone who knows their damage output and can better guage whether or not they're going to vanquish the foe first. When you fight with a "lucky" weapon, you never *really* know when to cut and run, or when to call for help, or when to alert your team that you're going down, etc. When you fight with a consistent weapon, you know the exact situation at all times.

Granted, there are some games where armor works in an absorptive way, in which case sometimes the bigger hitting but slower weapons were the better choice in some matchups simply because more damage got through the armor when you did make a hit. Faster weaps would deal less actual damage because too much of the weapon output was absorbed by the armor per hit.

But Guild Wars doesn't have absorptive armor. AL here is essentially just a defensive stat used in a "to-hit formula" manner.
#1 I changed that before I saw your post... It wasn't necessary.
#2 You rounded the decimals... rerun your scenario with higher numbers of hits, and you will realize that the more times you hit, the more misses you will have with the fast weapon over the slow weapon. A 60% chance is not the same as a 100% chance, and in your scenario, you simply rounded the 60% to 100%. Reread your arguement and you will see your fault.
#3 The thing about a luck streak... in Guild Wars you usually have to get a large amount of hits on a target before they die, due to the fact that most monks have the ability to outheal the average damager. This means that the only situation which would be a gamble (which I'm sure some people actually prefer) would be when you are walking up to a guy with troll ungent and whirling def. on, and have the oppurtunity only to put in a few hits.

shaktiboi
10-05-2006, 03:41
#1 I changed that before I saw your post... It wasn't necessary.
#2 You rounded the decimals... rerun your scenario with higher numbers of hits, and you will realize that the more times you hit, the more misses you will have with the fast weapon over the slow weapon. A 60% chance is not the same as a 100% chance, and in your scenario, you simply rounded the 60% to 100%. Reread your arguement and you will see your fault.
#3 The thing about a luck streak... in Guild Wars you usually have to get a large amount of hits on a target before they die, due to the fact that most monks have the ability to outheal the average damager. This means that the only situation which would be a gamble (which I'm sure some people actually prefer) would be when you are walking up to a guy with troll ungent and whirling def. on, and have the oppurtunity only to put in a few hits.

The same ratio of damage scales exactly as you have more hits. Let's focus on that 0.6 number for Player B. What that means is that 60% of that one attempt will be blocked, while 40% won't be blocked. Now scale my numbers/scenario to 10 fights, not just one fight. In all 10 fights, Player A will have exactly the same result: 4 out of 5 attempts will hit, meaning they do 80 damage in all 10 fights. Meanwhile, Player B will have 3 out of 3 attempts hit in 4 of his fights, while only 2 out of 3 will hit in the other 6 of his fights.

This means Player A beats Player B on 6 out of 10 fights in a straight-up toe to toe beatdown based on weapon damage alone.

That's a 60-40 win ratio for Player A versus Player B. Which would you rather be? Exactly.

This same ratio scales *exactly* the same whether its 10 fights, 100 fights, 1000 fights or a million fights. Who, statistically, will have the better win-loss record?

Change up the numbers and pick values of Player A's weapon hits 8 times during a fight, while Player B's weapon hits 4 times per fight. Otherwise the DPS is the same. Let's say Player A's weapon hits for 25 damage each attack, while Player B's weapon hits for 50 damage each attack. Now apply a 20% block rate again.

Player A will miss with 1.6 attacks in the fight, while Player B will miss with 0.8 attacks per fight.

Player A therefore always hits for 150 points in 6 out of 10 fights, and for 175 points in 4 out of 10 fights.

Player B therefore hits for 200 points in 2 out of 10 fights, and for 150 in 8 out of 10 fights.

Look at those numbers carefully. See the pattern here? Throw out the fights in which they *both* score 150 points (6 fights). What's left? Player A wins 2 of the remaining 4 fights, and Player B wins 2 of the remaining 4. Meaning, they are exactly equally matched.

What's the significance of my second example here? It goes like this:

If weapon B is EXACTLY twice as fast as weapon A, then they are equally good if they do the same DPS. If, however, weapon B is LESS THAN twice as fast as weapon A, then weapon A is always better.

Don't believe me? Run a bunch of numbers using the same general techique and see what you come up with. A faster weapon is ALWAYS statistically better in terms of sheer damage output unless it is exactly twice as fast as the slower weapon. Which practically never happens in MMOGs. The speed spreads are much closer to 1.33 and 1.4 and 1.5 ratio differences, not 2.0 ratios.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
10-05-2006, 03:47
u honestly think your right that every interval of a half has the same dps but in between they are worse??? lol...


honestly there are computer simulations proving what im saying is correct

aight a found the easily explainable flaw, you said:
This means Player A beats Player B on 6 out of 10 fights in a straight-up toe to toe beatdown based on weapon damage alone.

That's a 60-40 win ratio for Player A versus Player B. Which would you rather be? Exactly.
No, because when the slower player wins, they won by ALOT more than when the fast player won. You say, this doesn't matter, look who is overall winning. But when you multiple this out to the number of times (i.e. you hit alot more than 5 times in a fight, obviously) the amount your beating them buy more, comes essential to the kill. In real PvP, this is how things happen, you usually don't overkill someone by a lot of damage.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
10-05-2006, 12:37
just to expand on what i said earlier, the fast may out damage more times, but when the slow out damages, it does by more
if you add the dmg, the slow weapon is = to the fast weapon
also, your scenario set it up such that the fast weapon was at the optimal range not to overkill, which is why it happened that every double in speed was good: because it didnt overkill
but we arent talking about that, were talking about pure damage, in which case they are equal
i hope you understand now

shaktiboi
10-05-2006, 14:41
Look, we're obviously going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint as clearly as possible so that others can make their own decisions based on our arguments to each other.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
10-05-2006, 21:55
AKA You realized what I'm saying is right?
Here I'll make a comaprison chart:
Slow Weapon
More Risk
More Reward
Higher Chance for Overkill
Damage harder to heal to
Element of suprise
Better against skills like Shielding Hands and Union
Better against players wearing Absortion items
Fast Weapon
Less Risk
Less Reward
Lower Chance for Overkill
Damager easier to heal to
Fires off zealous and lifestealing mods more often
Better against skills like Reversal of Fortune, Protective Spirit, and Shelter

shaktiboi
10-05-2006, 22:53
AKA You realized what I'm saying is right?


No. Sorry. :shocked:

Because you are stuck on your concept that a BIG win now and then is somehow better than MORE wins over time.

Look, your arguments make sense in ONLY two situations:

A. A fight in which only 1 or 2 attacks happen. Which never happens in Guild Wars.

B. A fight in which hundreds or thousands of attacks happen, in which case actually the two different weapons turn out to be essentially equal.

The point you keep missing is this. Most fights are closer to 10 hits, give or take. At those numbers, the faster, more consistent damage gives you a better win-loss record.

It's. Just. That. Simple.

And every PvPer who's been around the block will agree on this.

Ah, what the heck... I'll try putting it another way that might get through. In a short fight, it hurts a lot more to have 1 or 2 BIG attacks miss or be blocked than to have 1 or 2 smaller attacks miss or be blocked, assuming that in the length of the fight both weapons put out exactly the same DPS. Think about it. Picture 100 short fights and tell me who will win more of the fights, when both players have an equal chance of any one weapon attack being blocked.

C'mon, this is basic common sense math.

The ONLY time this axiom does not hold true is when you have significant armor absorption going on. In which cases the higher damage from the slower weapon can actually punch more damage through over time.

In Guild Wars, the armor absorption is there, sorta kinda, but it's done in a way that scales more or less equally between different weapon speeds in a way that makes it essentially a non-factor. (But it's also why that bonus damage on attack skills is so important, because that always gets through without any mitigation based on the damage formula.)

Anyway, that's it from my side. There's nothing more I can say about this that will convince you because you're stuck on a line of thought that doesn't cut to the heart of the matter.

BTW, in your last "comparison chart" you threw in all manner of items that have no relevance to the question. Keep it to a straight up weapon-weapon comparison based on damage output over time. There are a kajillion other factors that totally overshadow any differences in the weapons themselves, which is why this argument is mildly pointless, lol.

Mallouck
13-05-2006, 14:55
I just love maths ! So here is my little contribution...
Let's consider the following:

Player A strikes 3 times per second with 10 dmg.
Player B strikes 5 times per second with 6 dmg.

Obviously, when not interrupted, they both strike for 30 dmg each second.

Now let's consider that an attack has 20% chances of being interrupted and therefore deals no damage.

------------------

Player A:

In order to compute the expected damage, we first need to compute the following probabilities:
p[no A's attack is interrupted] = 1*0.8*0.8*0.8 = 0.512
p[one A's attack is interrupted] = 3*0.2*0.8*0.8 = 0.384
p[two A's attack are interrupted] = 3*0.2*0.2*0.8 = 0.096
p[three A's attack are interrupted] = 0.2*0.2*0.2 = 0.008

Now we can compute the expected damage for one second:

PlayerA_DMG = 0.512*30 + 0.384*20 + 0.096*10 = 24

------------------

Player B:

In order to compute the expected damage, we first need to compute the following probabilities:
p[no B's attack is interrupted] = 1*0.8*0.8*0.8*0.8*0.8 = 0.32768
p[one B's attack is interrupted] = 5*0.2*0.8*0.8*0.8*0.8 = 0.4096
p[two B's attack are interrupted] = 10*0.2*0.2*0.8*0.8*0.8 = 0.2048
p[three B's attack are interrupted] = 10*0.2*0.2*0.2*0.8*0.8 = 0.0512
p[four B's attack are interrupted] = 5*0.2*0.2*0.2*0.2*0.8 = 0.0064
p[five B's attack are interrupted] = 1*0.2*0.2*0.2*0.2*0.2 = 0.00032

Now we can compute the expected damage for one second:

PlayerB_DMG = 0.32768*30 + 0.4096*24 + 0.2048*18 + 0.0512*12 + 0.0064*6 = 9.8304 + 9.8304 + 3.6864 + 0.6144 + 0.0384 = 24

--------------

Conclusion:

Expected damage is the same for both players...

I let you understand who was right in previous discussions... :wink:
And who needs to go back to school... :duh:

Mallouck
13-05-2006, 14:57
Just for clarity's sake, given the previous result, I would always go for the fastest weapon...

I let you imagine the reasons...

Lord Humungous
15-05-2006, 05:11
Weird, this thread is full of people who are half-right, but nobody seems to have the whole bag.....

Whether variability (i.e. higher standard-deviation) in damage is good or not is completely situation dependent.

Removing all side-effects from the picture, in 1v1 fights, low attack speed but equal DPS is preferable, because you 'front-load' the damage. But 1v1 fights don't exist in real situations generally, and 'front-loaded' damage has the problem of overkill (i.e. you deal 100 dmg to an enemy with only 10 life).

I would argue, however, that it takes long enough to switch targets in most cases (relative to weapon swing times) that overkill is generally irrelevant, so I would say that the general case favors slower attack speed (cetainly does in FPS. Q2 railgun had half the DPS of the chaingun, but was so front-loaded that it saw much more use).

As far as linear damage reduction effects go, there are also linear damage increase effects, so that argument depends entirely on the metagame (i.e. which effects are most common).

Why is it generally accepted that low standard-deviation is better? Because it favors the better player, and better players tend to get listened to. But if I were the underdog, I'd rather crank the standard-deviation up as high as possible. When I see an unfavorable matchup, my first instinct is to look for high-risk strategies.

As for the block % vs. # of attacks issue.... Both you guys are all over the map on that one. Each of you will say one thing that is true, then another that is crazy-talk.

The best you can say is that the attacker can predict what his own skills use best (slow or fast attack rate) and what the game environment will have in it, and plan accordingly.

In either case, attack rate is so much less important in GW than the specific skills you are looking to get access to.

And as far as education, give it a rest! The 11 year old kid at the local game shop who was telling his older brother what his chances of success were in the tabletop wargame they were playing is going to grow up to be better at these types of analyses than anyone who has posted here, even if he majors in belly-dancing!

nil desperandum
15-05-2006, 17:04
I think its a very tough explanation for this but i have to mention the amount of time put in it and the refined info so very good guys

Xycury
15-05-2006, 17:38
Great Post to the OP.

though reading through the rest of them.....

just saying that you're right, without giving proven evidence is just simply not intelligent, because it transforms into not the right answer but to your opinion.

and an opinion on a forum board is worth absolutely nothing to everyone at any given time, and only worth to the ones that keep the minds open.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs could have posted the math to back up his claims and not stating that he was just right.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
15-05-2006, 22:12
i did in the beginning... and then a few other people posted math that was alot easier to understand then mine
i would make the worst teacher ever... the only person that would understand me is myself

Deurmekaar
18-05-2006, 10:57
I can't believe the moderator allowed so many posts over an argument. He should cut it to a different threat and maybe pin it.

Anyhow, since there are so many expert mathematic persons on this thread, I wish (but is doubtful) that someone has actually read to this point and will help me.


+Pips = [(Crit Chance % x Energy Bonus) / Dagger Speed] / 0.33

Where:

* Pips (also called “ticks”) is the energy per second regen rate from your crits translated into energy par pips (each pip is +0.33 regen per second)
* Crit Chance is the decimal value of your total percentage crit chance
* Energy Bonus is the total stacked energy bonus per crit from Critical Strikes and Critical Eye


Also remember that you must ADD this “+Pips” value to your basic 4 pips that you get from your inherent energy regen plus the regen bonuses on your assassin armor.

Some examples:

* +4.4 Pips (1.44 energy per second) for 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery, 13 ranks in Critical Strikes and Critical Eye running full time during battle (([0.35 x 4] / 1.07) / 0.33). The 12 ranks of Dagger Mastery gives you 1.07 dagger speed and a 16% base crit chance. The 13 ranks in Critical Strikes gives you 3 energy bonus and another 13% crit chance. The Critical Eye gives you 1 energy bonus (stackable), plus another 6% crit chance (stackable). Your total crit chance is therefore 35% and your total energy bonus is therefore 4. Total Pips = 8.4 when auto-attacking.

My calculation (i know i'm just missing something):
.35 x 4 = 1.400
1.400 / 1.07 = 1.308
1.308 / .33 = 3.965 <-- i'm not getting 4.4?

Please help and thanks
Tjorriemorrie

Parker Bsb
18-05-2006, 18:22
I have a question as well - have we confirmed that the random dual strike attack is considered 2 seperate attacks (Ie while under strength of honour would the SOH bonus be added twice)?

shaktiboi
18-05-2006, 18:56
I can't believe the moderator allowed so many posts over an argument. He should cut it to a different threat and maybe pin it.

Anyhow, since there are so many expert mathematic persons on this thread, I wish (but is doubtful) that someone has actually read to this point and will help me.



My calculation (i know i'm just missing something):
.35 x 4 = 1.400
1.400 / 1.07 = 1.308
1.308 / .33 = 3.965 <-- i'm not getting 4.4?

Please help and thanks
Tjorriemorrie

You sir, are correct! That is a typo/cut-n-paste goof from earlier versions of the FAQ. If/when I get around to making a v5 of this FAQ, I'll correct that goof.

BTW, I'm waiting for the dust to settle on the assassin class before doing V5. There are still a few unanswered questions about mechanics, but most importantly, there are some balance issues on the PvE side that IMO currently make the 'sin a fairly weak/annoying class for PvE play that I'm hoping the devs correct soon. If/when they do, it will affect some of the details in the Dagger FAQ, I'm sure.

Meanwhile keep the bugs and questions coming!

hahnsoo
18-05-2006, 18:59
I have a question as well - have we confirmed that the random dual strike attack is considered 2 seperate attacks (Ie while under strength of honour would the SOH bonus be added twice)?It counts as two separate attacks.

arredondo
18-05-2006, 19:39
Here's a miscalculation that needs adjustment:


Dagger Speed = base speed / [1 + (Attribute x .02)]

Some examples, assuming a base speed of 1.33:
9 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.13 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.18)
12 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.07 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.24)
16 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.00 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.32)

The equation should be:


Dagger Speed = base speed - [base speed * (Attribute x .02)]

That makes the numbers read as:


9 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.09 seconds per attack
12 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.01 seconds per attack
16 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 0.90 seconds per attack

Look at it this way... If a person running takes 12 minutes to get from point A to Point B on Monday, let's say he goes 25% faster on Tuesday. If he goes 25% faster, we know 3 is 25% of 12 (.25*12), so he makes the trip on Tuesday in 12-3= 9 minutes. As one equation it's 12-(12*.25)= 9. Trying this as 12/1.25 (your equation above) would yield an answer of 9.6 minutes, which is obviously incorrect.

With double strikes, we have a 24% chance at L12. The attack speed is 1.33, so with a 24% modifier it should read 1.33-(1.33*.24)= 1.01. The other calculations fall in place in the same way.

shaktiboi
18-05-2006, 19:55
No, it doesn't work that way, Arredondo. What happens if you use your equation and a value of 50 ranks of Dagger Mastery?

50 ranks * 0.2 per rank = 100% chance of a double strike. Meaning you attack twice as fast 100% of the time.

Using your equation that would be 1.33 - (1.33 * 1) = 0

If you attack with double attacks 100% of the time, your effective dagger speed would not be 0 (as your equation would predict), it would be half of 1.33 (0.665).

Let's try 50 ranks with my equation:

1.33 / ( 1 + 1) = 0.665

See the difference? My equation for effective speed is correct.

arredondo
18-05-2006, 20:22
I see where I went wrong... thx. So that means using Flurry with a 42 damaging IW build only does exactly 42 DPS? It's been reported as 47 since day one.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
18-05-2006, 22:17
You sir, are correct! That is a typo/cut-n-paste goof from earlier versions of the FAQ. If/when I get around to making a v5 of this FAQ, I'll correct that goof.

BTW, I'm waiting for the dust to settle on the assassin class before doing V5. There are still a few unanswered questions about mechanics, but most importantly, there are some balance issues on the PvE side that IMO currently make the 'sin a fairly weak/annoying class for PvE play that I'm hoping the devs correct soon. If/when they do, it will affect some of the details in the Dagger FAQ, I'm sure.

Meanwhile keep the bugs and questions coming!
I've been using a build similiar to one of the ones you mentioned in your if i were to do it all over again thread and it's actually pretty good. Only thing you have to worry about is blind and enchantment removal, which not many mobs bring anyway.

shaktiboi
18-05-2006, 22:39
I see where I went wrong... thx. So that means using Flurry with a 42 damaging IW build only does exactly 42 DPS? It's been reported as 47 since day one.

Well, first you compute the effect of Flurry and IWAY upon the base weapon speed. So that 1.33 will become a smaller, faster number. Then you apply that result to the formula for effective dagger speed to derive your effective dagger speed with Flurry and IWAY.

I honestly don't know how Flurry/Frenzy and IWAY stack together, so I'm not going to attempt this for you, lol. But with Frenzy alone, for example, you would do the following:

1.33 * ( 1 - 0.33) = 0.89 base speed

0.89 / (1 + .24) = 0.72 effective speed with 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery.

Use that 0.72 value in the appropriate damage formula for the dagger and you'll have your new DPS. Of course, you have to adjust numbers for the 25% damage reduction bit from Flurry. It gets messy, which is why I don't want to do it, LOL.

The entire point here is that IAS skills affect the base weapon speed of 1.33. Only after you have the new, post-IAS base speed can you then apply that to the effective speed created by double-strikes from Dagger Mastery.

You also have to remember that there's a hard limit to the base weapon speed. If memory serves, you can't get any faster than a .75 base weapon speed no matter what IAS skills you stack up. That's the beauty of Dagger Mastery and the fact that it doesn't work by directly changing your base speed--you can effectively go faster than the hard limit.

epyon96
22-05-2006, 03:38
The discussion about weapon speed and effective dmg in battle is rather interesting.

Just thought I might add my two cents in.

shaktiboi kept emphasizing the variability involved with slower attacks. At first, I was curious how he derived that since averages always work out to be the same over a long period of time. However, with a bit more thought, I would have to agree with him whole-heartedly.

Consider this:
Why do two people sharing one washroom encounter far more difficulty than ten people sharing five washrooms. Technically the ratio of 2:1 people to washrooms is unchanged. Yet one situation often results in more problems than others.

It has to do with the central limit theorem, one of the basis of statistical science. Given more data points, in this case washrooms and people, you are more likely to average out to a mean. In the latter scenario of 10:5 people to washrooms, it means it will be a more harmonious environment.

So how is this related to the dmg discussion earlier you might ask.

Consider this:
A fast weapon hits 10 hits for 9-11 dmg in 10 seconds.
A slow weapon hits 2 hits for 45 - 55 dmg in 10 seconds.
If the block rate is set at 50%. That means on average you deal 50 dmg with either weapon considering the block rate.

However, if we look at the ranges, we get:
Fast weapon: 90 -110 and can range from 0-110 if we consider block rate since 50% block is random and can just as easily block all 10 attacks, although it is unlikely (chance is 1/2^10)

Slow weapon: 90-110 and can range from 0 -110 if we consider block rate.

You look at those numbers and at first glance it looks the same. However, now is where central limit theorem comes into play. Because of the far greater number of data points in the 10 hit scenario, it is far more likely to average out with a smaller variance. This means you are more likely to hit close to 45-55 range in dmg.

What is the benefits of this you might ask? The slow weapon can do the same too right? It can but it has a much higher risk of being in the extreme scenarios of 0 or 110. The problem is that in a game like Guild Wars PvP, I imagine overdamage is not anywhere near as important as being able to avoid the scenarios of dealing little dmg. In fact, ideally, you probably want the weapon that is completely consistent in dmg in order to best utilize your build and avoid externalities of luck.

EPYON

Durgin
28-05-2006, 04:29
I decided I could settle the fast, low damage weapon vs. the slow, high damage weapon debate by writing a program that quickly and easily evaluated weapon damages (not taking into consideration critical hits, or weapon skills). I wrote it in C# so you'll probably need the .net framework to run it, but here it is if people are interested:

DamageCalc.exe (http://www.mirellest.com/myfiles/DamageCalc.exe)

I haven't thoroughly tested it but it should be relatively bug-free. And while I see absolutely no reason for it to cause any problems with your computer, I certainly will not be held liable if you use it and it does.

After testing, in the long run the faster lower damage weapons will outdamage a slower, higher damage weapon at the same damage per second ratio. But in individual battles this isn't very pronounced. The difference shifts in favor of the slower weapon the lower your miss rate gets.

Some other factors to take into consideration. Fights in groups aren't a duration that factors evenly with your weapon speed, so if a fight lasts 22 seconds, a weapon that hits once every 2 seconds will have more chances of hitting than a weapon that hits once every 5 seconds as an example (11 chances to hit vs 4). But with the weapon speeds in GW, this will usually never mean more than the difference of a single hit.

If I can get detailed calculations for determining crit damage I'll add it in as well. It also does not consider blocking, evasion, etc... If there's demand for those things and people have some formulas for applying them, I can add them in.

Durgin
28-05-2006, 09:14
Sorry for the double post, can't edit my previous post any more.

I just edited my damage calculator to v1.1. It now figures out average DPS, and allows you to enter a % chance to crit and figures that into the damage as well.

Let me know what you guys think.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
28-05-2006, 19:52
The discussion about weapon speed and effective dmg in battle is rather interesting.

Just thought I might add my two cents in.

shaktiboi kept emphasizing the variability involved with slower attacks. At first, I was curious how he derived that since averages always work out to be the same over a long period of time. However, with a bit more thought, I would have to agree with him whole-heartedly.

Consider this:
Why do two people sharing one washroom encounter far more difficulty than ten people sharing five washrooms. Technically the ratio of 2:1 people to washrooms is unchanged. Yet one situation often results in more problems than others.

It has to do with the central limit theorem, one of the basis of statistical science. Given more data points, in this case washrooms and people, you are more likely to average out to a mean. In the latter scenario of 10:5 people to washrooms, it means it will be a more harmonious environment.

So how is this related to the dmg discussion earlier you might ask.

Consider this:
A fast weapon hits 10 hits for 9-11 dmg in 10 seconds.
A slow weapon hits 2 hits for 45 - 55 dmg in 10 seconds.
If the block rate is set at 50%. That means on average you deal 50 dmg with either weapon considering the block rate.

However, if we look at the ranges, we get:
Fast weapon: 90 -110 and can range from 0-110 if we consider block rate since 50% block is random and can just as easily block all 10 attacks, although it is unlikely (chance is 1/2^10)

Slow weapon: 90-110 and can range from 0 -110 if we consider block rate.

You look at those numbers and at first glance it looks the same. However, now is where central limit theorem comes into play. Because of the far greater number of data points in the 10 hit scenario, it is far more likely to average out with a smaller variance. This means you are more likely to hit close to 45-55 range in dmg.

What is the benefits of this you might ask? The slow weapon can do the same too right? It can but it has a much higher risk of being in the extreme scenarios of 0 or 110. The problem is that in a game like Guild Wars PvP, I imagine overdamage is not anywhere near as important as being able to avoid the scenarios of dealing little dmg. In fact, ideally, you probably want the weapon that is completely consistent in dmg in order to best utilize your build and avoid externalities of luck.

EPYON

Pretty much a good summary, I agree with most of what your saying. You have to take into account though that spike damage in Guild Wars PvP is important, especially in 8v8s. However, in PvE, it may be better to be consistant, but it is all a matter of luck. Just a look outward, in WoW a few of the skills such as these cause slower weapons to be better: http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=21553 , http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=25300 , however some prefer faster weapons because in WoW each hit slows down the enemies casting speed. Anyway, good summary Epyon.

shaktiboi
04-06-2006, 22:53
Because I'm shelving my assassin (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?p=4142792#post4142792) (she'll be used only as an inventory mule until Anet gets around to fixing the class, if ever), I will not be producing a V5 of this FAQ.

If anyone wants the original source code for the FAQ contents to correct and enhance for the community, please PM me and I'll arrange to get you the RTF file somehow (the source is in WordPad format).

The Avatar
12-10-2006, 20:59
if im a A/W wielding a sword. Will i net more DPS dmg than an assassin using dagger or warrior as primary using sword?

like 16 rank in critical strike and 12 rank in swordmanship. Will that beat regular assassin with 16 rank in critial strike, and 12 rank in dagger mastery?

shaktiboi
09-11-2006, 17:53
if im a A/W wielding a sword. Will i net more DPS dmg than an assassin using dagger or warrior as primary using sword?

like 16 rank in critical strike and 12 rank in swordmanship. Will that beat regular assassin with 16 rank in critial strike, and 12 rank in dagger mastery?

With 16 ranks in CS and 12 ranks in your weapon, you have a 32% crit chance (16 + 16). Table 1 of this FAQ shows the numbers for a 36% crit chance with 12 weapon mastery, and Table 2 of this FAQ shows the numbers for a 29% crit chance with 12 weapon mastery. Your answer will fall somewhere in between those two tables, so it's easy to guess. You will net more *auto-attack* DPS from the sword. Of course, then you need to factor in all your specials and decide for yourself whether you can sustain more additional DPS from dagger combos or from sword combos. IMO, there certain dagger spike chains that, coupled with Assassin's Promise, can yield far more DPS over the course of a fight than anything a sword weilder can put out over the same span of time.

Thao
31-05-2007, 07:09
This is really interesting, but too bad Assassin's usually don't stay in melee range for too long to really show a big difference in effectiveness because they always are spikers and if they were pressure, they'd probably get spiked down quickly.

Apparently, Critical Eye got a buff, is there a new table with new Critical Eye anywhere?

Selket Shadowdancer
23-09-2008, 13:55
[b]NOTE: Due to a poorly-written description for the Critical Strike dual-attack skill, some players will argue that you do not get the energy bonus for using this skill. They are wrong. You get two guaranteed critical hits, and each critical will yield the energy bonus. So you can get up to +8 energy per use of this dual-attack skill.



You can get a total of +16 energy from using Critical Strike (3x2) with Critical Eye (1x2) active and weapon switching to zealous daggers (1x2) with critical strikes attribute at the breakpoint of 13 (3x2). 3+3+1+1x2=16.

Paired with Moebius Strike you have some seriously sick energy managment.

NeferJackal
03-08-2009, 14:40
How much of an increase does an IAS like Critical Agility grant an Assassin in energy management? What does the effective energy gain become then?

If going by the standard stats of 14 Daggers, 13 Critical and using Critical Eye.

And when adding a Zealous mod?