PDA

View Full Version : PvP Build: Relentless Shutdown KA Assassin



shaktiboi
14-04-2006, 21:26
Based on the line of reasoning in my Why Siphon Strength (E) is the schiznit for PvP (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=394064) thread, I offer up my idea of a fun and successful PvP Assassin primary build archetype. Note that this archetype hinges on a 10-second recharge time for Siphon Strength, which might not actually be the case when Factions is released. But assuming the recharge time really does stay at 10 seconds, I think this build is a winner. Even if Anet tries to nerf Siphon Strength because everyone's using it, and they push the recharge back up to 20 seconds, it still works great in this build because I get the most bang for the buck by using it only once every 20 seconds as a starter for my alpha strike.

One thing to make clear up front. This build is not a solo-killer. It is not focused on spike damage. I personally feel that spike builds for Assassins are too fragile. Instead, this is a build for team players who are okay with the idea of assisting kills, not being the killer.

The basic idea of this build is that you are the surprise shutdown factor on a team. Every 20 seconds, you can teleport directly to the side of any teammate, unavoidably cripple their target, unavoidably knock-down their target, unavoidably poison their target, and then kill-assist with very high auto-attack DPS.

Nothing in the build has a recharge time longer than 20 seconds, so you're limited only by your energy regen rate, which is why I chose to use 12DM/13CS versus 16DM/8CS. You have a 3.07 EPS regen rate for 9 out of every 11 seconds during battle, and a 2.14 EPS regen rate at all other times during battle.
From the time you start your "out of nowhere" alpha strike to the time you have regained full a 25 energy to do it all over again is 20-21 seconds.
Your bonus damage for every alpha strike is +129 (+17 for the Lead Attack plus 112 for the poison).
Your non-bonus DPS is 31.2 for the 9 seconds that Siphon Strength is active, followed by 20.1 for the remaining 12 seconds of the Alpha Strike cycle.
You have the fastest, cheapest condition removal if you get blinded or crippled, both of which totally shut down your own DPS output and more importantly your energy regen.
You have the fastest, cheapest hex removal if you get nailed by Dulled Weapon, which shuts down your uber crit rate (you can bet we'll see this used a lot in PvP).
Your teleport can work in both directions: to get you into battle quickly or to escape from a bad situation. It's also the fastest-recharging TP available.
You have a solid, fast-recharging self-heal that you can use in or out of battle. It also provides very strong damage mitigation during 4 of its 8-second recharge cycle.
You have a useful, cheap skill to ensure that your cripples and poisons never miss, but it's not so useful that you will miss it badly in PvP that require a rez. So you have a non-essential skill that can be swapped out for a rez, if needed.


The only utility that you don't have in this build is an enchant removal for the target. But that's okay, it's the least important of the three (hex/condition/enchant) to your role, and other teammates should be able to provide enchant removal.

Here's the build, and then after that I'll tell you how to run it.

Relentless Shutdown Kill-Assist Archetype

Assassin/Monk
Level: 20

Critical Strikes: 13 (12+1)
Dagger Mastery: 12 (8+4)
Shadow Arts: 8 (7+1)
Deadly Arts: 9 (8+1)

Way of the Fox (Shadow Arts)
For 23 seconds, your next attack cannot miss.
Energy:5 Cast:1 Recharge:3

Return (Shadow Arts)
All adjacent foes are Crippled for 6 seconds. Teleport to target ally.
Energy:5 Cast:1 Recharge:20

Siphon Strength [Elite] (Deadly Arts)
For 9 seconds, target foe deals -15 damage with attacks and all of your attacks against that foe have an additional 33% chance of being a critical hit.
Energy:15 Cast:2 Recharge:10

Black Mantis Thrust (Dagger Mastery)
If this attack hits, you strike for +17 damage. If target foe is suffering from a Hex, that foe is Crippled for 13 seconds.
Energy:5 Cast:0 Recharge:12

Entangling Asp (Deadly Arts)
Entangling Asp must follow a lead attack. Target foe is knocked down and becomes Poisoned for 14 seconds.
Energy:10 Cast:1 Recharge:20

Shadow Refuge (Shadow Arts)
For 4 seconds, all damage is reduced by 50%. When Shadow Refuge ends, you are healed for 78.
Energy:5 Cast:1 Recharge:8

Smite Hex (Smiting Prayers)
Remove a Hex from target ally. If a Hex is removed, foes in the area suffer 10..70 damage.
Energy:5 Cast:1 Recharge:15

Purge Conditions (Monk other)
Remove all Conditions (Poison, Disease, Blindness, Dazed, Bleeding, Crippled, and Deep Wound) from target ally.
Energy:5 Cast:0.25 Recharge:20

Running the build

Note: If you need a rez, swap out Way of the Fox for the rez. Or, if you really feel you need Way of the Fox, you can swap it for one of the condition or hex removers, or even for the self-heal, depending on the make-up of your team and whether you'll think you can count on another teammate to keep you healthy and de-hexed and de-conditioned.


Start with Way of the Fox (5E) and stay on the periphery of the action. Look for a teammate who's got somebody engaged (or work with a partner or two).
Wait for your full 25 energy to come back from your natural regen.
Once you've got 25 energy, it's time for your alpha strike: cast Return (5E) to jump to your teammate.
Immediately cast Siphon Strength (15E) on your teammate's target and queue up Black Mantis Thrust (5E) during the SS cast. Within 1 second, the target is unavoidably crippled for 13 seconds unless they or a teammate remove the condition. (Nothing you can do about that.)[br]
At this point you have 0 energy left, but your regen rate under SS is 3.04 EPS.
Auto-attack the crippled target until you have 5 energy. This should take 2 seconds on average.
Re-cast Way of the Fox (5E) on the target. This is important to ensure that your next attack is unavoidable.
Auto-attack the crippled target until you have 10 energy. This should take 4 seconds on average (you're still at 3.04 EPS under SS).
Cast Entangling Asp (10E). The target is unavoidably knocked down and unavoidably poisoned. Note: Since the knockdown effectively interrupts the target, you might want to wait a few seconds to pop this off, if you think you might be able to interrupt a cast.
Now just auto-attack to build your energy back up to a full 25. Your alpha strike has taken 8 seconds, so you still have one second of 3.07 EPS under SS, then you're dropping down to 2.14 EPS. Rather than recasting Siphon Strength as soon as it recycles for extra DPS, I'd recommend instead to just let your regular auto-attack EPS work for you and keep energy in reserve for any needed condition/hex removal or self-healing.
If no healing or hex/condition removal is needed, you'll be back to full energy in about 10-11 seconds after Siphon Strength has worn off. Sometimes faster, sometimes slower.
About 20-21 seconds has passed since you began your alpha strike. Guess what? Everything is recharged and you can do it all over again.


One note about the teleport skill. If you can just run to the next target unawares, don't bother using it. Instead, save it for an emergency getaway.

Another note about whether to use Siphon Strength a second time during each assist. You *can* do it for higher DPS against a target that will take a long time to kill. It will, however, increase the total time until you're ready to repeat the entire alpha strike to roughly 27 seconds. Me? I like being able to repeat this alpha strike 3x per minute instead of only 2x per minute. But again, if you have a really hard target that you're assisting with, it might be a good choice to pop off Siphon Strength a second time as soon as you get 15 energy back after casting your Entangling Asp.

Another note about using Way of the Fox a second time during your alpha strike. If you feel lucky, you can just skip using WoTF to ensure that your Entangling Asp cannot be avoided. This will shave 2 seconds off your total alpha strike cycle. IMO, using WoTF is mandatory only to ensure that your opening cripple can't be avoided.

This is the smoothest-running, most predictable/reliable, fastest re-cycling PvP build I can think of. You're not a superstar. You won't score the uber leet solo kills. But you will be one hell of an asset to your team, and you will be hard to kill, hard to shutdown, and fully effective most of the time. You will be the relentless, annoying mofo who pops up out of nowhere to assist with a kill, and you'll be damn effective at doing so. You'll be the "Oh S**T!!!" guy. That's what I call fun! :laughing:

I XM
15-04-2006, 00:21
This is a nice build idea.

I think you are using some pre-FPE values for some of the skills however. A few of the recharge times are like on Black Mantis Thrust are off. Way of the Fox works differently now and with a cooldown of 45s (if the recent GWOnline updates are correct). Expose Defenses might be better for what you want to use it for. It is also a nice cover hex for your Siphon Strength and has a good duration/recharge ratio.

Signet of Malice could potentially be better than Purge Condition as well, because your build cripples and poisons. This could allow you to pick a different secondary for your hex removal (Me with hex breaker/shatter hex? although shatter hex is more energy hungry). Like many assassin defensive abilities however it depends on offense, since you can only remove conditions if you can target a foe with a condition (doesn't have to be your target, could be another foe being conditioned).

shaktiboi
15-04-2006, 02:51
This is a nice build idea.

I think you are using some pre-FPE values for some of the skills however. A few of the recharge times are like on Black Mantis Thrust are off. Way of the Fox works differently now and with a cooldown of 45s (if the recent GWOnline updates are correct). Expose Defenses might be better for what you want to use it for. It is also a nice cover hex for your Siphon Strength and has a good duration/recharge ratio.

Signet of Malice could potentially be better than Purge Condition as well, because your build cripples and poisons. This could allow you to pick a different secondary for your hex removal (Me with hex breaker/shatter hex? although shatter hex is more energy hungry). Like many assassin defensive abilities however it depends on offense, since you can only remove conditions if you can target a foe with a condition (doesn't have to be your target, could be another foe being conditioned).


Dang it! You're right about Way of the Fox now being totally different. However, the new wording might actually work *better* in this build. I'll play with the build and see... I might have to tweak Shadow Arts up by one point and drop Deadly Arts by 1. But it now lasts for 24 seconds at SA 8 and guarantees the next 4 attacks. It might actually let me nail my attack cycle every 20 seconds, and both the first and second instances of Black Mantis Thrust are guaranteed hits (as long as the enchant isn't stripped from me). Then, I have to wait 5 extra seconds before starting the 3rd attack cycle, which is really no biggie.

Best off, it saves me significant energy in my first two cycles, so it might actually make the build more efficient.

I'll post a new version of the build later when I can play with this some more, and I'll double-check my other skills against The Edge 2.0 to ensure I'm not missing anything else.

Cantos
15-04-2006, 09:09
You seem impressed to the point of comedic obsession by this elite but I dont see how it warrants it, or how you are even utilising it as well as you could be. Not with 12 dagger mastery. Critical hits on daggers arent even that high anyway iirc? Why wouldnt you run a Shove > Falling Spider > Twisting Fangs core instead of this? It would do more damage and cycle faster. Since when is knocking someone down every 20 seconds "relentless shutdown" anyway? Where are you envisioning this build functioning? With the self hex and condition removal it looks like a Random Arena job, so why would you neglect the res sig at all? Why would you gimp your damage by ignoring Twisting Fangs? You admit this build is trash for spikes, but I'm not at all impressed by the DPS (whatever you are guessing it is) it's meant to be doing.

shaktiboi
15-04-2006, 17:01
You seem impressed to the point of comedic obsession by this elite but I dont see how it warrants it, or how you are even utilising it as well as you could be. Not with 12 dagger mastery. Critical hits on daggers arent even that high anyway iirc? Why wouldnt you run a Shove > Falling Spider > Twisting Fangs core instead of this? It would do more damage and cycle faster. Since when is knocking someone down every 20 seconds "relentless shutdown" anyway? Where are you envisioning this build functioning? With the self hex and condition removal it looks like a Random Arena job, so why would you neglect the res sig at all? Why would you gimp your damage by ignoring Twisting Fangs? You admit this build is trash for spikes, but I'm not at all impressed by the DPS (whatever you are guessing it is) it's meant to be doing.

Shove > FS > TF is a *great* combo but it requires a warrior secondary or primary. Warriors have no condition or hex removal. Two things can pretty much shut down an Assassin's performance in PvP: Crippling (condition), or Dulled Weapon (hex).

If you have actually *read* my post, you'd understand that I wasn't trying to be uber with the damage. I was trying to be versatile, annoying, hard to shutdown, hard to kill, and quick to assist.

As for your definition of "relentless" as being somehow tied to knockdown: "Steady and persistent; unrelenting" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=relentless)

Finally, I'm not even going to bother with the math showing how 8 seconds of +33% crit damage does more damage than the bonus damage of Shove, since you're obviously not the logical or math type, nor have you read the Dagger FAQ.

ContactCombat
15-04-2006, 22:54
I'm with Shaktiboi.

The build seems, to me at least, to have a quick cycle time in use. While your standard 5 chain attack assassin build WILL outdamage/spike this build, the downtime required for that level of damage is much greater than this build.

In other words, a cookie cutter chain attack build will be able to port in and spike a crud load of damage. However, if that spike is interupted OR if the target isn't killed outright, then the assassin can be left with a rather long span of time before the chain and the energy recharges.

This build, on the other hand, shovels out consistent, steady damage with a rather persistent recharge rate that rarely leaves the assassin thinking, "CRAP! I'm useless for the next 45 secods!"

In addition, I find the use of "Return" to be absolutely brilliant...and it shows that the assassin can be used as a "Cornerman" in addition to a lead spiker.

This is a box:

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/junkyard/box-in-box.gif

Shaktiboi is thinking outside of it.

Cantos
16-04-2006, 02:50
Shove > FS > TF is a *great* combo but it requires a warrior secondary or primary. Warriors have no condition or hex removal. Two things can pretty much shut down an Assassin's performance in PvP: Crippling (condition), or Dulled Weapon (hex).So ... you are designing for RA? In all other Arenas this sort of thing is outsourced to primary monks usually. If we accept that we need this stuff here, then the next question we must ask is why use skills with terrible cycle rates? Remove hex and Holy Veil can remove more hexes over time, and Mend Ailment (or plague touch) is a better solution for conditions. The arguement might even be made for Purge Signet with appropriate use of weapon switches. It would tie nicely to your cycle time too.


If you have actually *read* my post, you'd understand that I wasn't trying to be uber with the damage. I was trying to be versatile, annoying, hard to shutdown, hard to kill, and quick to assist.This build you have constructed doesnt look versatile or annoying. Beyond a simple 8v8 scenario, where it could assist in an adrenal spike, you have said up front that it cant solo, so it's usefulness as an NPC ganker or flag runner harasser is allegedly nil. It has no speed buff, so it couldnt run flags, kits, relics, or orbs. As for annoying, it can knock someone down once every 20 seconds and possibly cause some snaring with Return. Do you need a list of things that can cripple or knockdown better than this?

As for building something that is hard to shut down and hard to kill, are you building an Assassin or a Paladin?


As for your definition of "relentless" as being somehow tied to knockdown: "Steady and persistent; unrelenting" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=relentless)Your ability to link to DICTIONARY DOT COM has left me flabbergasted and without response! Truly one knockdown every 20 seconds is brutal and unrelenting shutdown indeed!

Please note that enclosed in my quotation marks are two words, the second of which you have unfortunately failed to include in your DICTIONARY DOT COM shenanigans. The flippant point I was trying to make was that this build does not shut anything down in any signifigant way, and the thread title is therefore incongruous. Perhaps instead of "Relentless Shutdown KA Assassin" you could name this "Occasional Knockdown KA Assassin".


Finally, I'm not even going to bother with the math showing how 8 seconds of +33% crit damage does more damage than the bonus damage of Shove, since you're obviously not the logical or math type, nor have you read the Dagger FAQ.Thanks for the condescension, but dont forget the Bleeding, Deep Wound, or better cycle rate when you are doing your awesomely complex calculations.

I still dont know why you would not maximise your critical hit damage with the highest dagger mastery that you can get. If energy is a problem, why on earth would decreasing your damage for a higher Critical Strikes be your solution? There must be a better way.

I dont understand why you have not added Twisting Fangs to your build. A Warrior that can not apply Deep Wound is a joke, why should this Assassin not be judged by the same rules? Redundant Deep Wound vectors on adrenal spikes are good.

Syes
16-04-2006, 03:32
I've looked at this for a while, and I have to say, I'm not feeling it. You present the build as being a strong utility/assist design, yet the two annoyance factors, a cripple and a kd, are simply not that scary. A cripple that really hurts will always be removed fast, and one kd every 20 seconds is only really useful when combined with the spike power to use that kd to get the kill. I also fail to see what your key skill, Siphon Strength, does to make either of those abilities better than they would be in any randomly selected sin build.

Effectively, all Siphon is doing for you is boosting your base dps and once you consider that dropping Deadly Arts completely, putting points in Smiting instead, and taking Strength of Honour and Judges Insight would give you more dps, it becomes a contender for waste of an elite. I'm sure you'll argue that more criticals also means more energy, but once you realise that Siphon itself is the single most energy intensive part of your build by a long, long way, that bonus rather becomes obsolete.

My last worry is that you need a second melee attacker in order to use your 'surprise' attack (like it's a huge surprise when they already have somebody beating on them), yet still feel you need to remove your own hexes and conditions ? Sorry, but that simply isn't logical.

Siphon Strength is a potentially very good skill, but I don't think this is the build to prove it.

MaximumSquid
16-04-2006, 03:37
In addition, I find the use of "Return" to be absolutely brilliant...and it shows that the assassin can be used as a "Cornerman" in addition to a lead spiker. Agreed. . .

That 2 man team synergy with recall is a very smooth operation.

Shove assassin is an impressive A/W setup, but there are builds that run better and definetly better knockdown elites you could be using.

Although it takes a little more finesse you could be a gangsta and run the non-elite knockdowns in your build.

Then you can really turn up the "Murder" with the doors that opens. :evil:

/all i got

fallot
16-04-2006, 15:08
definetly better knockdown elites you could be using.

An example please.

shaktiboi
16-04-2006, 22:35
I've looked at this for a while, and I have to say, I'm not feeling it. You present the build as being a strong utility/assist design, yet the two annoyance factors, a cripple and a kd, are simply not that scary. A cripple that really hurts will always be removed fast, and one kd every 20 seconds is only really useful when combined with the spike power to use that kd to get the kill. I also fail to see what your key skill, Siphon Strength, does to make either of those abilities better than they would be in any randomly selected sin build.

Effectively, all Siphon is doing for you is boosting your base dps and once you consider that dropping Deadly Arts completely, putting points in Smiting instead, and taking Strength of Honour and Judges Insight would give you more dps, it becomes a contender for waste of an elite. I'm sure you'll argue that more criticals also means more energy, but once you realise that Siphon itself is the single most energy intensive part of your build by a long, long way, that bonus rather becomes obsolete.

My last worry is that you need a second melee attacker in order to use your 'surprise' attack (like it's a huge surprise when they already have somebody beating on them), yet still feel you need to remove your own hexes and conditions ? Sorry, but that simply isn't logical.

Siphon Strength is a potentially very good skill, but I don't think this is the build to prove it.

Strength of Honor eats a tick of energy regen (0.33/sec) and gives me 26.1 DPS for as long as I can maintain it (at the value of 8 Smiting, which is all I can spend if I take Deadly to 0). That's certainly not bad, but it slows my energy regen rate in two ways. First, it's shaving 0.33 off the top of my normal non-melee regen rate. Second, it's taking away the extra regen provided by a 33% higher crit rate. Put the two factors together and we're talking a significant reduction in regen rate, and if there's one thing I think everyone can agree that Assassins need, it's energy regen and lots of it.

Judge's Insight looks more promising on the surface, because at 8 Smiting it will last for 15 seconds. Let's see what DPS increase it yeilds:

Crit modifier 2^[[60-([60x0.8]-20)]/40] = 1.7411
Median modifier 2^[[60-(60x0.8)]/40] = 1.2311

Adj. Median Damage = 14.8 (12 * 1.2311)
Adj. Crit Damage = 30 (17 * 1.7411)

Dagger DPS (29% crit): 17.9 ( [[14.8 * .71] + [30 * .29]] / 1.07 )
DPS for customized 15/50: 24.8 (17.9 * 1.38)

Well, 24.8 DPS for a 10E skill that takes 2 seconds to cast and lasts 15 seconds isn't bad, but it's nowhere near the 31.2 DPS of Siphon Strength. The downside, again, is that I also lose energy regen from losing my 33% extra crit rate. With the extra regen SS actually costs me only 7E and gives me 31.2 DPS, while Judge's Insight costs 10E and gives me only 24.8 DPS (albeit for 6 seconds longer than SS).

The real problem with this build is the inaccurate energy costs and recharge and cast times of the skills that I got out of GWFreaks. Not only was Way of the Fox off, but unfortunately Black Mantis Thrust is now 10E to cast, not 5E so that very much blows getting my opener finished with only 25 energy to start with.

I still contend that Siphon Strength is one of the best damage enhancers for any Assassin primary. That 15E cost isn't really 15E by the time you factor in the extra energy regen it earns you. The big problem is finding a build that can handle that 15E cost early in a combo and still leave you enough room to get off the rest of the combo.

Back to the drawing board for now.

MaximumSquid
17-04-2006, 05:13
An example please.

Weaken knees is a fair example. . . It recharges 4 times faster than shove.

This lets you run pressure instead of spike which should yeild you a higher overall DPS.

It also makes it so your enemy can't run from you which inspired the Kiteless Assassin (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=393468)

There's plenty of non-elite knockdowns that out perform shove when used properly as well. . .

If you don't want to have your knockdown be linked to your secondary profession just use one of the three that belongs with the assassin lines.

Just play around with it a bit. . . You may like what you find.

shaktiboi
17-04-2006, 19:17
Weaken knees is a fair example. . . It recharges 4 times faster than shove.

This lets you run pressure instead of spike which should yeild you a higher overall DPS.

It also makes it so your enemy can't run from you which inspired the Kiteless Assassin (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=393468)

There's plenty of non-elite knockdowns that out perform shove when used properly as well. . .

If you don't want to have your knockdown be linked to your secondary profession just use one of the three that belongs with the assassin lines.

Just play around with it a bit. . . You may like what you find.

I like your "Kitless Assassin" builds, reasoning, and playstyle quite a bit. It jibes with my view of how to play Assassin to its strengths.

The problem with using the Assassin knockdowns, IMO, is that they're all too hard to pull off. Well, Scorpion Wire isn't hard to do and actually fits well with my idea of using TP to appear out of nowhere as an "oh s**t!" factor, but the problem with Scorpion Wire is that 30-second recharge time, plus the fact that somebody might remove the hex before you hit the 100-foot distance to trigger the teleport.