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shaktiboi
17-04-2006, 23:15
My other PvP idea (Relentless KA Assassin) turned out to be unfeasible with the latest FPE skill stats from The Edge 2.0. So I've come up with another approach for a "relentless" or "pressure" assassin. Basically, I've given up on the teleport skills as being too energy-intensive to fit into an alpha strike, or else taking too long to recharge. I've also given up on pretty much every 15e skill, no matter how good, because I feel that they tend to hurt the reliability of a build or make decent alpha strikes impossible unless you want to restrict yourself to +energy armor.

Is this build as "uber" as one with a strong (but FRAGILE) spike combo? No. But its spike output is nonetheless quite decent, and most importantly, this build is very hard to stop. This is strong pressure build with practically no downtime, and it can deal with most of the common things that shut down an assassin.

Features:

Takes advantage of mobility tactics
ALL damage is unavoidable (cannot be evaded or blocked)
Significant spike damage
Self-healing and damage mitigation
Self-removal for both conditions and hexes
Has a rez, which can be swapped for any other useful skill if you don't need a rez
The lead-off-dual combo recharges in 10 seconds and costs only 20 energy
The fourth damage skill is chain-independent and recharges every 20 seconds.
All non-damage skills are very cheap and the longest recharge is 8 seconds.
The build is based on 12 DM / 13 CS, which gives you slighly lower auto-attack DPS but plenty of energy. You can easily substitute a 16 DM / 8 CS build to go for higher DPS if you don't run low on energy when playing this.


Here's the build. Sorry for the ugly format but that's The Edge for you. At least the skill stats are solid (based on FPE).

Unstoppable Pressure Assassin

Class: Assassin / Monk

Attributes: (cost) '+' indicates Rune attributes
Critical Strikes: 12+1 (97)
Dagger Mastery: 8+4 (37)
Deadly Arts: 7+1 (28)
Shadow Arts: 8+1 (37)

Total attribute points used: 199/200

Skills: [Attribute] (Energy, Cast Time, Recharge TIme)
1) Siphon Speed [Deadly Arts] (5,1,5) Hex: For 10 seconds, target foe moves 20% slower and you move 20% faster.

2) Dancing Daggers [Deadly Arts] (5,1,5) Spell: Send out three Dancing Daggers at target foe. Each striking for 15 earth damage if they hit. Dancing Daggers has half the normal range. This skill counts as a lead attack.

3) Entangling Asp [Deadly Arts] (10,1,20) Spell: Entangling Asp must follow a lead attack. Target foe is knocked down and becomes Poisoned for 13 seconds.

4) Fox Fangs [Dagger Mastery] (5,0,8) Off hand attack: Must follow a lead attack. Fox Fangs cannot be 'blocked' or 'evaded' and strikes for +18 damage if it hits.

5) Nine Tail Strike [Dagger Mastery] (10,0,10) Dual attack: Must follow an off-hand attack. Nine Tail Strike cannot be 'blocked' or 'evaded' and strikes for +35 damage if it hits.

6) Shadow Refuge [Shadow Arts] (5,1,8) Enchantment: For 4 seconds, you take half damage. When Shadow Refuge ends, you are healed for 84.

7) Blessed Light [Divine Favor] (10,1,7) Spell: Heal target ally for 10 Health and remove one Condition and one Hex. This is an elite skill.

8) Resurrect [none] (10,6,5) Spell: Resurrect target party member.


Running this build

Running this build is dirt simple and you have many flexible options.

First off, you don't need crippling. I can't find any decent way to consistently make an unavoidable cripple that isn't way too expensive. Siphon Speed, however, is very nearly a cripple and it's unavoidable and lasts for ever and is cheap to cast and recast if it gets removed. You have an effective 40% speed differential for as long as you want it, and you can reapply it to the same target or new targets every 5 seconds if need be.

The basic combo is unavoidable: Dancing Daggers > Fox Fangs > Nine Tail Strike. Don't poo-poo Nine Tail Strike--that +35 bonus x 2 is massive. It's really not *that* far behind the Deep Wound from Twisting Fangs. When you consider that it *cannot* be avoided and that it recycles fast enough to apply twice in the space that you can apply Twisting Fangs, this is a winner. Dancing Daggers is no slouch either, doing 46 points of unavoidable damage.

Once every 20 seconds, you can toss the Entangling Asp into the combo chain right after Dancing Daggers. It knocks down the target, helping you catch up to them even faster, and it does 136 points of damage if it runs the full time without being removed. Your lead recharges in 5 seconds so you can always choose instead to spike for the lead-off-dual combo first, wait 5 seconds, and then hit with the lead again followed by Entangling Asp.

On the utility side, you have one of the best melee self-heals in the game, IMO, which effectively gives you 110 AL defense against everything for 4 out of every 8 seconds, then gives you 84 health back at the end of the 8 seconds. It's cheap enough and fast enough to spam over and over, both in combat and while kiting. You also have a single spell slot that provides a fast and reasonably-costed hex/condition remover, which I feel is very important to keep an Asassin running smoothly.

Finally, you have a rez in the basic build. Don't need a rez? Swap in something else you find useful.

shaktiboi
18-04-2006, 00:50
Actually, the best way to run the attack cycle is this:


Whip out your lead-off-dual combo first. 20 energy spent, 133 bonus damage, plus damage from three weapon hits.
Wait 5 seconds for Dancing Daggers to recharge. By this point you have 15 energy back if you're running a 12 DM / 13 CS build.
Pop Dancing Daggers again, followed by Entangling Asp for another 45 damage plus 4 ticks of health degen that will total 136 HP if it's not removed.
Wait 2-3 seconds to regen 5 energy, then pop Fox Fangs again.
Wait another 5 seconds to regen 10 energy, then pop Nine Tail Strike again.


You're doing a 133-bonus spike in the first few seconds. Within 7-8 seconds, you've done another 181 bonus damage. Before 14-15 seconds are over, you've laid on another 88 bonus damage. This is in addition to your base auto-attack DPS of roughly 21 DPS with a customized 15/50 set of daggers.

Alternatively, if you want to run with +energy armor and are starting with 30 energy, you can just whip out all 4 damage spells/attacks in your alpha strike, for a bonus spike of about 270 in just a few seconds.

Chip
18-04-2006, 01:15
My only suggestion if this is trully a solo build swap watchfull spirit in for ressurect. Will keep this in favourites untill factions comes out

Kjentei
18-04-2006, 06:58
I see this being more useful in PvP, but it's great.

Low cost and recharge.
Always hits.
Deals a highly considerable amount of damage.
Is very offensive, as well as unstoppable/defensive.

Despite the low cost, this build asks for 20 energy every say... 10 seconds, with additional skills being used, so you're going to have to go about 10% less freqent with the combo than you say.

Nanashi
18-04-2006, 10:16
I see this being more useful in PvP, but it's great.

Despite the low cost, this build asks for 20 energy every say... 10 seconds, with additional skills being used, so you're going to have to go about 10% less freqent with the combo than you say.

Zealous mods will work wonders for this. :)

shaktiboi
18-04-2006, 13:34
I see this being more useful in PvP, but it's great.

Low cost and recharge.
Always hits.
Deals a highly considerable amount of damage.
Is very offensive, as well as unstoppable/defensive.

Despite the low cost, this build asks for 20 energy every say... 10 seconds, with additional skills being used, so you're going to have to go about 10% less freqent with the combo than you say.

I didn't explicitly put it in the build notes, but a 12 DM / 13 CS attribute setup actually has a 2.14 energy per second (EPS) regen rate during battle, which means if you can keep swinging those daggers, you'll actually have 21 energy every 10 seconds. That's why I recommend a 12 DM / 13 CS attribute setup, for that extra 1 energy per crit compared to a 16 DM / 8 CS attribute setup. As Nanashi points out, however, Zealous daggers would be quite useful too.

For PvE use, where your energy requirements are usually the highest, you could probably replace the hex/condition breaker with Critical Eye and run quite smoothly.

MaximumSquid
18-04-2006, 13:35
Combo looks very solid.

I gotta ask though. . .

Have you calculated what kind of damage over time or damage per point of energy you will be doing?


Zealous mods will work wonders for this. :) I got to agree here. You will most likely have to load up zealous to keep the expensive skills like entangling asp and Nine tail's strike going smoothly.

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mods:
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Ok unless you plan to regularly use blessed light on other allies you should get rid of that completely for contemplation of purity.

Then load up an enchantment elite like dark apostacy or locust's fury. That with shadow refuge you'll have 2 enchants to use as fodder for removing conditions and hexes on your character.

Don't worry that people might kite you. . .you have a ranged lead attack and a ranged knockdown that causes poison! I say let them kite you, and make them sorry for it!

shaktiboi
18-04-2006, 13:56
Combo looks very solid.

I gotta ask though. . .

Have you calculated what kind of damage over time or damage per point of energy you will be doing?

I got to agree here. You will most likely have to load up zealous to keep the expensive skills like entangling asp and Nine tail's strike going smoothly.

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mods:
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Ok unless you plan to regularly use blessed light on other allies you should get rid of that completely for contemplation of purity.

Then load up an enchantment elite like dark apostacy or locust's fury. That with shadow refuge you'll have 2 enchants to use as fodder for removing conditions and hexes on your character.

Don't worry that people might kite you. . .you have a ranged lead attack and a ranged knockdown that causes poison! I say let them kite you, and make them sorry for it!


Base auto-attack DPS for a customized 15/50 dagger will be 20.1 DPS. Add that to your spike bonus damage for the three-part or four-part alpha strike and you can easily guestimate how much damage you will put out in x number of seconds. If you run with +energy armor so that you can alpha with all four damage skills, that's the fastest overall damage in the shortest amount of time.

One thing to consider is that Entangling Asp recharges only every 20 seconds, so at best you can pop the full four-attack chain only every other time. During the recharge period, though, you can fit in the lead-off-dual combo again.

The Blessed Light is for myself. There are two Ritualist hexes that are the "bane" of Assassins, not to mention many useful hexes out there for all classes. Since I opted out of trying to make teleport skills really work, I'm also especially vulnerable to being crippled myself, and of course every meleer must worry about being blinded, which is also quite common. So for PvP I'm loathe to get rid of this fast, moderately-priced all-in-one hex/condition remover.

I do think that Blessed Light is not useful for most PvE zones/quests/missions, however, and would probably choose to swap it out for Critical Eye or some other skill that's useful for the zone I'm in. I would also swap out the basic Resurrect for Rebirth.

Still, I'll check out those other skills you mentioned when I get a chance. :smiley:

IMMORTAlMITCH
18-04-2006, 14:04
I think this is an extremely poor PvP build, the healing is subpar, hex and condition removal is nice but not on a damage dealer and definately not worth the elite slot, the damage albeit unavoidable by evasion/blocking is subpar, and any type of energy denial will totally wreck this build.

I don't mean to sound like an ***, but try again :(

shaktiboi
18-04-2006, 15:05
I think this is an extremely poor PvP build, the healing is subpar, hex and condition removal is nice but not on a damage dealer and definately not worth the elite slot, the damage albeit unavoidable by evasion/blocking is subpar, and any type of energy denial will totally wreck this build.

I don't mean to sound like an ***, but try again :(

One word: LOL :shocked:

shaktiboi
18-04-2006, 16:09
Ok unless you plan to regularly use blessed light on other allies you should get rid of that completely for contemplation of purity.

Then load up an enchantment elite like dark apostacy or locust's fury. That with shadow refuge you'll have 2 enchants to use as fodder for removing conditions and hexes on your character.

Don't worry that people might kite you. . .you have a ranged lead attack and a ranged knockdown that causes poison! I say let them kite you, and make them sorry for it!

Contemplation of Purity is faster and cheaper than Blessed Light, it's true, but the downside is that to use it I must sacrifice my current application of Shadow Refuge. I'm not sure I'd want to do that. Still, it's an alternative worth investigating.

I don't like Dark Apostasy myself, because I don't want to lose 5-10 energy just to strip an enchantment. Well, that's not quite accurate--enchantment stripping ability is great, but I'd like it to be more controllable. With Dark Apostasy running, I cannot decide when to spend the energy to strip an enchantment. I don't like that. Still, it's a worthy substitute skill to investigate if you don't need a rez.

Locust's Fury is an *excellent* substitute skill for this build, but only to swap out for the rez if you don't need a rez, or to swap out for Blessed Light in PvE situations where you really don't need a hex/condition remover that badly. I would not choose to give up Siphon Speed for anything, but that's a personal choice. My PvP style is very oriented around mobility tactics in the games that support such tactics. I had a blast in the early months of Anarchy Online, for example, with my Fixer. Mobility tactics regularly enabled me to dispatch even 3- and 4-person gank squads solo.

Basically, I consider the first 6 skills in the list as "core" to the build. Depending on your team makeup and whether you need a rez at all, the two skills that you can swap out for other skills are the two monk skills. This also makes the "core" build usable with any secondary, if you're comfortable relying on teammates for your condition/hex removal and you don't personally need to be able to rez.

IMMORTAlMITCH
18-04-2006, 18:38
One word: LOL :shocked:

Uhm, I assume this is a PvP build.

I fail to see how this will work in any type of PvP save maybe Random Arenas.

Your damage output from attacks is subpar compared to warriors, even though you won't miss (unless you're blinded), your spiking capabilities are FAR subpar to warriors, no IAS, and a lot less damage.

And ressurect? Wtf? There is no real reason to run a hard res on anything but a mesmer (or maybe f-o-m-f on a ritualist) in pvp and theres no reason to consider a hard res that's not rebirth in pve.

All in all I think it's a poor build for PvP and decent at best for PvE.

shaktiboi
18-04-2006, 18:55
Uhm, I assume this is a PvP build.

I fail to see how this will work in any type of PvP save maybe Random Arenas.

Your damage output from attacks is subpar compared to warriors, even though you won't miss (unless you're blinded), your spiking capabilities are FAR subpar to warriors, no IAS, and a lot less damage.

And ressurect? Wtf? There is no real reason to run a hard res on anything but a mesmer (or maybe f-o-m-f on a ritualist) in pvp and theres no reason to consider a hard res that's not rebirth in pve.

All in all I think it's a poor build for PvP and decent at best for PvE.

Okay I'll try one rational response, though I'll probably kick myself for it later.

You say damage output is subpar to warriors? Nice blanket statement. Care to back that up with some details and some math? I've got lots of details to back up my build (see the Dagger FAQ). I've showed you mine; now you show me yours.

You say spiking output is far inferior to Warriors? You did read my first couple paragraphs where I say this isn't an uber spike build, right?

No IAS? There's room for an IAS if you don't think a hex/condition remover is important. Take Warrior or Ranger secondary and plug in a rez signet and the IAS of your choice. Done. (Although you should note that Locust's Fury in this build will last 32 seconds and offers an effective 16% IAS--do the math--with no downside whatsoever other than it's an elite.)

The only reason I'm running a "hard rez" is because I'm already a monk secondary for the hex/condition removal, so why not? And if you actually *read* this thread, you'll see that I recommend Rebirth for PvE use.

Finally, you obviously have trouble grasping the entire point of the build. This isn't a spike build. This is a pressure build. Big difference. Sure some Warrior build can do more spike, but can you guarantee hits even though you're blinded? Can you catch your prey even if you're crippled? Can you hit through the myriad 75% block/evade enchants out there? Can you deal with the various hexes that reduce your attack output? Can you cycle your spike combo as fast as every 10 seconds?

BLAHHH
18-04-2006, 22:21
Uh and to be fair, Warriors can't truly 'spike' (i.e. cause damage fast enough that it can't be healed whilest the 'spike' is being performed) as well as this build either - simply due to the nature of how quickly Assassin attacks and spells can be flung out (as well as their naturally faster attack rate), this would out-spike any Warrior build, at least in theory.

I've never understood why anyone thinks Warriors make good damage dealers... I've been playing a Warrior myself for ages and aside from single-skill damage they really don't do that much, and they really are too slow to truly 'spike'. Really for spiking, 99% of Assassin builds out-do Warriors, and the typical Ranger, Ele, Mesmer or Necro can all out-spike a Warrior too. Warriors have a few good skills for damage but most of them are a bit too situational and overall Warriors are just too slow to truly 'spike'.


On-topic though... you sure about taking Nine Tail over Twisting? I know the insta-damage is higher (almost double the damage of Twisting in most situations if I understand correctly in fact) and it's unavoidable etc, but I'd think that in the grand scheme of things bleeding + deep wound more than make up for Twisting's downsides (better for long-term pressure at least) and in fact would push it above Nine Tail. In PvP it causes extra pressure on monks as healing is reduced and they have degen to contend with (or if they want, they can spend time and energy removing two conditions, so you're going to either be locking them out for a bit or severely reducing their effectiveness - either way you win), and from my rather extensive experience as a Ranger over the last year I've learnt to really value having a degen or two in a build - bleeding isn't my first choice but still, I can see it helping a lot (especially against Warriors were your flat damage may not actually end up adding up to that much anyway). As for PvE, certainly bleeding + deep wound will be much more valuable than added damage (the evade/block aspect is a tad void since very few PvE monsters - at least in Proph and of what we've seen in Factions so far - actualy use any kind of evade/block skill; for the majority of the time you'll be hitting your target all the time anyway).

Also, I'd be tempted to replace Dancing Daggers with Unsuspecting Strike as your lead attack, really amp up the damage (you could probably then afford to lower DA a bit too - depending how that impacted on Siphon and Entangling of course - and up one of your other attributes {possibly save yourself some health if it allowed you to replace that Superior DM rune for a Major as well}, and whilest losing the earth damage would make you ever so slightly less effective against Warriors in PvP, I think the added damage from Unsuspecting would make up for it enough, you'd then be doing better against Rangers too and certainly for PvE from what we've seen of factions so far it seems to make more sense to go with plain physical damage rather than earth.

IMMORTAlMITCH
18-04-2006, 22:37
You say damage output is subpar to warriors? Nice blanket statement. Care to back that up with some details and some math? I've got lots of details to back up my build (see the Dagger FAQ). I've showed you mine; now you show me yours.

You say spiking output is far inferior to Warriors? You did read my first couple paragraphs where I say this isn't an uber spike build, right?

No IAS? There's room for an IAS if you don't think a hex/condition remover is important. Take Warrior or Ranger secondary and plug in a rez signet and the IAS of your choice. Done. (Although you should note that Locust's Fury in this build will last 32 seconds and offers an effective 16% IAS--do the math--with no downside whatsoever other than it's an elite.)

The only reason I'm running a "hard rez" is because I'm already a monk secondary for the hex/condition removal, so why not? And if you actually *read* this thread, you'll see that I recommend Rebirth for PvE use.

Finally, you obviously have trouble grasping the entire point of the build. This isn't a spike build. This is a pressure build. Big difference. Sure some Warrior build can do more spike, but can you guarantee hits even though you're blinded? Can you catch your prey even if you're crippled? Can you hit through the myriad 75% block/evade enchants out there? Can you deal with the various hexes that reduce your attack output? Can you cycle your spike combo as fast as every 10 seconds?

Alright, 3x15 damage from the dancing daggers that's 45 damage, affected by armor, not affected by critical striker/dagger mastery, that's about as much as 1 or 2 warrior attacks (not attack skills).

Entangling Asp, this skill is incredibly subpar imo, sure it knocks the target down and poisons it for a short duration the recharge is pretty bad and as far as I know it doesn't deal any direct damage. If you wanna poison, use apply poison, if you wanna knockdown use shock/bull's strike.

Fox Fangs, this is a decent skill however I think there are better possibilities here, the bonus damage isnt that great, wild blow would be a better option imo. Another option would be using expose defenses/rigor mortis and black lotus strike.

Nine Tail Strike, this is a pretty nice attack skill, good bonus damage, however I do think there are better possibilities out there, horns of the ox comes to mind.

Shadow Refuge, I don't know exactly what type of PvP you intended to use this build for, however I think shadow refuge is a pretty obsolete skill for tombs, has very limited uses in GvG and is decent at best in RA/TA.

Blessed Light, in 8v8 or 12v12 there's no need for offensive characters to bring hex removal especially not waste their elite slot on it, even in TA I wouldn't recommend it, it can work out in RA, but its still really situational and there are far better options out there.

Resurrect, not viable in any type of PvP without fastcasting imo, especially not if you have no way to prevent getting interrupted.

A good pressure build that accomplishes pretty much the same is:

Bunny Thumper
Ranger/Warrior
Level: 20

Expertise: 12 (8+4)
Beast Mastery: 9 (8+1)
Wilderness Survival: 8 (7+1)
Hammer Mastery: 12

- Wild Blow (Warrior other)
- Irresistible Blow (Hammer Mastery)
- Distracting Blow (Warrior other)
- Tiger's Fury (Beast Mastery)
- Escape [Elite] (Expertise)
- Apply Poison (Wilderness Survival)
- Troll Unguent (Wilderness Survival)
- Resurrection Signet ()

An as Assassin primary:

Pressure Assassin
Assassin/Necromancer
Level: 20

Critical Strikes: 12 (11+1)
Dagger Mastery: 14 (10+4)
Deadly Arts: 9 (8+1)
Curses: 6

- Unsuspecting Strike (Critical Strikes)
- Weaken Knees [Elite] (Curses)
- Falling Spider (Dagger Mastery)
- Horns of the Ox (Dagger Mastery)
- Expose Defenses (Deadly Arts)
- Critical Eye (Critical Strikes)
- Critical Defenses (Critical Strikes)
- Resurrection Signet ()

The first build can be made more offensively oriented by dropping expertise/trolls, for a tombs build those 2 wouldnt be neccesary, the second oneis somewhat more offensive, less spiking capabilities however Unsuspecting Strike is a great spike skill.

Just 2 builds I've thrown together in a little bit, I'm sure with some more time and knowledge of exact figures and numbers factions will have at release I can make something a lot better.


Uh and to be fair, Warriors can't truly 'spike' (i.e. cause damage fast enough that it can't be healed whilest the 'spike' is being performed) as well as this build either - simply due to the nature of how quickly Assassin attacks and spells can be flung out (as well as their naturally faster attack rate), this would out-spike any Warrior build, at least in theory.

I've never understood why anyone thinks Warriors make good damage dealers... I've been playing a Warrior myself for ages and aside from single-skill damage they really don't do that much, and they really are too slow to truly 'spike'. Really for spiking, 99% of Assassin builds out-do Warriors, and the typical Ranger, Ele, Mesmer or Necro can all out-spike a Warrior too. Warriors have a few good skills for damage but most of them are a bit too situational and overall Warriors are just too slow to truly 'spike'.

Err.. How do Assassins have a faster attack rate? Daggers attack just as fast as swords/axes, there's just a possibility of having a dual attack, whereas warriors have armor penetration while using attack skills.

Tralus
18-04-2006, 23:08
Uh and to be fair, Warriors can't truly 'spike' (i.e. cause damage fast enough that it can't be healed whilest the 'spike' is being performed) as well as this build either - simply due to the nature of how quickly Assassin attacks and spells can be flung out (as well as their naturally faster attack rate), this would out-spike any Warrior build, at least in theory.

I've never understood why anyone thinks Warriors make good damage dealers... I've been playing a Warrior myself for ages and aside from single-skill damage they really don't do that much, and they really are too slow to truly 'spike'. Really for spiking, 99% of Assassin builds out-do Warriors, and the typical Ranger, Ele, Mesmer or Necro can all out-spike a Warrior too. Warriors have a few good skills for damage but most of them are a bit too situational and overall Warriors are just too slow to truly 'spike'.



The above statements makes my head hurt.

If you want to bother with spike damage, warriors are the top, with an avg dmg of 170 - 180 with Eviserate and a max of 212 if you crit with it. Mesmers comes next with SD/PP that deals a neat 179 unerring, armor ignoring damage. Rangers more or less tie or even surpass this with Dual Shot/PS if you have RtW and orders. Then comes Elementalists in terms of numbers, although you may consider the necromancer to have higher spike damage if you want to factor in high AL targets.

Assassins make piss-poor spikers and are more suited for high dps. Their skills don't deal enough raw damage (think LOrb or RSpike w/ Orders) and lack deep wound. Their high crit rate makes up for this, allowing them to constantly deal solid damage. However, DPS != Spike damage. Please learn how to differentiate the two.



Okay I'll try one rational response, though I'll probably kick myself for it later.

You say damage output is subpar to warriors? Nice blanket statement. Care to back that up with some details and some math? I've got lots of details to back up my build (see the Dagger FAQ). I've showed you mine; now you show me yours.



Well you can start with the 2400 DPM baseline (no attack skills) that axe warriors have at 16 axe, and compare your dagger baseline to that. Problem is that numbers for an assassin running 16 Dagger Mastery isn't out yet, much less a 16 Dag/X Crit/Y Etc build. If there is a such a place with the numbers for this it would be an interesting read.

I've seen your dagger dps guide, and I think I go over it again a bit later or whenever I have the time (reports and labs oh joy =/). But IIRC it doesn't have the numbers for 16 attribute Daggers and. I think you said you were using SonOfRah's forumlae which has some inconsistencies.



No IAS? There's room for an IAS if you don't think a hex/condition remover is important. Take Warrior or Ranger secondary and plug in a rez signet and the IAS of your choice. Done. (Although you should note that Locust's Fury in this build will last 32 seconds and offers an effective 16% IAS--do the math--with no downside whatsoever other than it's an elite.)

The only reason I'm running a "hard rez" is because I'm already a monk secondary for the hex/condition removal, so why not? And if you actually *read* this thread, you'll see that I recommend Rebirth for PvE use.

Finally, you obviously have trouble grasping the entire point of the build. This isn't a spike build. This is a pressure build. Big difference. Sure some Warrior build can do more spike, but can you guarantee hits even though you're blinded? Can you catch your prey even if you're crippled? Can you hit through the myriad 75% block/evade enchants out there? Can you deal with the various hexes that reduce your attack output? Can you cycle your spike combo as fast as every 10 seconds?


This looks to be an OK build based around a lot of surefire strike skills. I'm not sure if you need to use your elite slot of hex and condition removal however.
Having some hex/condition removal/ heals is a good thing (if you are using ones that fit your character), as it takes some pressure off your monks and gives you some independence, but you may not want to sacrifice too much of your character's potential effectiveness (the Assassin seems to have some very nice elites that may have very high potential) just for that particular ability.

This probably would be a decent build to try out for a base soloer in GvG or someone trying to run flag disruption. However, since people don't really use a designated flag runner anymore per se, this role is a little trickier, since even if you stuff your char with a self heals, etc, a good balanced team (even a split party) will mow this build down. Which really leaves you in the role of base destruction, which is a good one, but since NPCs don't have evasion stances, you may want to try for some higher DPS skills.

If you want a build that is designed more for character assassination, well this isn't it, in my opinion anyway. Anti-Evasion/Blocking is nice, but keep in mind that the majority of your DPS comes from your auto attack, and it would probably be in your best interest to throw in an IAS.

Oh and hard resses suck. Badly. Too long to cast, for too little benefit. Especially when compared to res signet.

Symbolic Self
18-04-2006, 23:40
Seriously, the other posters are right. This doesn't do any significant amount of pressure.

You get your base dps of ~20, and 88 bonus damage every 10 seconds from fox fangs and nine tails strike. That works out to 28.8 dps total plus whatever you get from dancing daggers (remember you have to sacrifice a regular attack to use it). That isn't going to pressure anyone compared to a speedboosted auto-attacking warrior. Using your elite for condition/hex removal is also suboptimal. If you want solid condition removal, just take necro secondary for plague touch. Use your elite for damage.

Seriously, I just posted a warrior build in the pvp forum that does 60 dps. If you want to compete with a pure pressure warrior in factions those are the sort of numbers you have to aim for. (Yeah it can't hit through blind/evade like this one can, and it doesn't have hex and condition removal, but your teammates can take care of this far more efficiently than you can).

Symbolic Self
18-04-2006, 23:57
I think if you want an assassin dps build three things are essential:

1) High dagger mastery (14+)
2) A dps elite (locust's fury probably)
3) A speed boost (tiger's fury works best).

You should also focus on dual attacks to raise your base damage output. The regular dagger skills can't double strike so their increase over your auto attack is [bonus damage] - [base damage x chance of double strike], which isn't so great when you have such a high chance of double striking in the first place.

shaktiboi
19-04-2006, 15:38
The above statements makes my head hurt.
Well you can start with the 2400 DPM baseline (no attack skills) that axe warriors have at 16 axe, and compare your dagger baseline to that. Problem is that numbers for an assassin running 16 Dagger Mastery isn't out yet, much less a 16 Dag/X Crit/Y Etc build. If there is a such a place with the numbers for this it would be an interesting read.

The 16 ranks numbers are in the Dagger FAQ. There's no way in hell an axe can do 2400 DPM from auto-attacks. Dagger can out DPS Axe at 16 ranks.

Max you can get with an Axe is 1548 DPM. I've got the numbers to prove it in the very last table in part 3 of the FAQ.

Assuming base auto-attack only with no IAS mods, a base axe does 18.7 DPS. A customized 15/50 axe would therefore do 25.8 DPS. Multiply that by 60 and you get 1548. A Dagger Assassin with 16 ranks and maxed crit chance with Critical Eye running can outperform that at 1614 DPM. Without Critical Eye, they come close at 1540 DPM.

Again, I say show me the math. Quit making these damn blanket statements with no details to back them up.

Also, to say that SonOfRah's formulas are incorrect is another blanket statement with no proof. SonOfRah indeed got four minor details wrong (or else they were changed later in the game). I link to the two detailed proofs of such from my Dagger FAQ, and I also made a comment on his essay here in GWOnline that highlights the four bits that other folks have proved wrong. Those four bits have very little to do with the base DPS numbers we're talking about wrt weapon damage output. Heres' the summary of where he's wrong:

1. (Deford) SonOfRah's full damage formula fails to correctly account for the target's damage modifiers, such as when the target is using Frenzy. The correct damage formula is actually Received Damage = (victims damage enhancement){{(AttackersDamage Enhancement) x (Base Damage) x (Armor Modifier)} + (Bonus Damage)}. See http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?p=4004064#post4004064 for details

2. (Deford) There is no 'positional' GSM. You take/give the same damage regardless of facing.

3. (Deford) There is no 'shield' GSM. AL from an equipped sheild is applied equally regardless of facing.

4. (Pan Sola) The threshold above which additional ranks in weapon master yeild only +2 to your Baseline value is NOT fixed at rank 12. Instead, the threshold varies depending upon your current character level. The exact formula is Threshold = ((CLevel / 2) + 2). For example, if you are level 10, the threshold is 7. At level 10, you are getting +5 to your Baseline for every rank in your weapon mastery from 1 to 7, but 8 or more ranks is yielding only +2 each to your Baseline. See http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=378858 for details.

---------------

Again, I have details and math and my own testing to back up my numbers. What are you bringing to the table to back up your fuzzy claims? This is why I did the damn Dagger FAQ in the first place, because of unsupported blanket comments being tossed around as if they were obvious fact.

Symbolic Self
19-04-2006, 15:53
The ~2400 number assumes a constant speedboost which is unrealistic given that most axe warriors are running frenzy. But even assuming no IAS (which is also unrealistic) an axe will do 25.8 (I'm assuming the numbers in your FAQ are correct, they seem to be), + 6.31 dps from evisc + executioner's. That's 32.1 dps total, which is already better than your build and with a MUCH harder spike.

In reality the axe war will be frenzying a fair amount of the time, pushing it higher. Though to be fair we do need to add the damage from poison to your build, you can have someone poisoned for 13 out of 20 seconds, so +8 * 13/20 = 5.2 dps from poison. Still not enough.

The problem is your build is supposed to be pure pressure. So you need to do it a lot better than the alternatives, especially when your defense is a single enchantment and your spike capability is well nigh nonexistent.

Drop blessing of light. Take locust's fury. Try and fit an IAS in there. Raise DM above 12. You want dps then don't do a half assed job by trying to wear a bunch of different hats. That's never a good idea unless you're optimizing for random arena.

shaktiboi
19-04-2006, 16:11
If you want to bother with spike damage, warriors are the top, with an avg dmg of 170 - 180 with Eviserate and a max of 212 if you crit with it.

First off, most opponents are running around with a +3 rune, which means they're starting with 435 health. 20% of that is only 87. A warrior with 16 axe mastery is at most getting +42 straight bonus damage from Eviscerate. So assuming best conditions, your typical 16 AM warrior is getting 129 total bonus from Eviscerate. Median damage for a normal hit from a customized 15/50 axe is 27. Crit Damage from a customized 15/50 axe is 62. Let's add up the numbers:

Non-crit Eviscerate: 156
Crit Eviscerate: 191

How often does an 8 rage skill recharge?

Dagger has Twisting Fangs, which is a non-elite dual attack that costs only 10 energy and recharges in 15 seconds. It does Deep Wound *and* Bleeding for 21 seconds. An Assassin with 16 dagger mastery gets +21 straight bonus damage from it. Bleeding damage (if it's not removed) adds up to 126. Median damage for a dual hit from a customized 15/50 dagger if the Assassin has NO points in Critical Strikes at all is 46. Dual crit damage from a customized 15/50 dagger is 78. Let's add up the numbers:

Non-crit Twisting Fangs: 280
Crit Twisting Fangs: 312

Um, now WHO exactly is "at the top" for spike damage?

Again, if you're going to bring blanket statements to me, you better have the data and the math to back them up. Otherwise you're just perpetuating the same B.S. that's been going around for too long.

shaktiboi
19-04-2006, 16:29
The ~2400 number assumes a constant speedboost which is unrealistic given that most axe warriors are running frenzy. But even assuming no IAS (which is also unrealistic) an axe will do 25.8 (I'm assuming the numbers in your FAQ are correct, they seem to be), + 6.31 dps from evisc + executioner's. That's 32.1 dps total, which is already better than your build and with a MUCH harder spike.

In reality the axe war will be frenzying a fair amount of the time, pushing it higher. Though to be fair we do need to add the damage from poison to your build, you can have someone poisoned for 13 out of 20 seconds, so +8 * 13/20 = 5.2 dps from poison. Still not enough.

The problem is your build is supposed to be pure pressure. So you need to do it a lot better than the alternatives, especially when your defense is a single enchantment and your spike capability is well nigh nonexistent.

Drop blessing of light. Take locust's fury. Try and fit an IAS in there. Raise DM above 12. You want dps then don't do a half assed job by trying to wear a bunch of different hats. That's never a good idea unless you're optimizing for random arena.


Okay these are some valid comments, but you're forgetting that Assassins have access to many of the same damage enhancing skills as warriors are.

First off, tossing in Executioner's to your argument is spurious because it's just a typical bonus damage single attack. Assassins have many of those, most averaging around +21 bonus damage and usually adding some effect too. So no significant difference there, really.

Now let's look at IAS for the Assassin. We have Locust's Fury, which boils down to the equivalent of a 16% IAS. Sure that's only half the IAS of Frenzy, for example, but theres NO downsides to it. And it's permanent. Recharge of 30 seconds and you can keep it running for 32 seconds.

Poison DPS is better than Bleeding DPS. Oops, Assassins have both if they want, and it's very easy to fit both into a build.

And again, how many totally unavoidable attacks do Warriors have? Wild Blow. How many at least partially unavoidable attacks do axe warriors have? Two: add Swift Chop to the list. Compare that to how many completely unavoidable attacks (spell or otherwise) an Assassin has at their disposal.

As for your suggestions for my build, please remember that the core build is indeed designed for RA. Yes, it should be obvious that some of those skills can be substituted. Namely the two monk skills can easily be substituted because not everyone will want or need them in all PvP situations. If I didn't need self-condition/hex removal, you bet I'd be tossing Locust's Fury in that slot instead. As for the rez slot, it's a no-brainer to toss any rez in there that you prefer for the situation, or if you don't need a rez to toss in any other useful skill.

One relatively obvious substitution *if* you don't need the self condition/hex removal is to go Necro secondary, replace Entangling Asp with Falling Spider, replace Blessed Light with Weaken Knees, and swap the monk res for a res signet.

Symbolic Self
19-04-2006, 16:57
First off, tossing in Executioner's to your argument is spurious because it's just a typical bonus damage single attack. Assassins have many of those, most averaging around +21 bonus damage and usually adding some effect too. So no significant difference there, really.

No, I'm not, because I included that dps bonus from fox fangs and Nine Tails Strike in my comparison. The bonus damage from offhand and lead attacks is typically pretty bad too, considering that these skills will never double strike. The real good stuff is from the dual attacks, but you need to sacrifice a lot of skill slots to include more than one dual attack in your build.



Now let's look at IAS for the Assassin. We have Locust's Fury, which boils down to the equivalent of a 16% IAS. Sure that's only half the IAS of Frenzy, for example, but theres NO downsides to it. And it's permanent. Recharge of 30 seconds and you can keep it running for 32 seconds.


It's not half of frenzy. Frenzy is a flat 50% boost in dps. 33% decrease in attack speed -> 50% increase in attacks per second.



Poison DPS is better than Bleeding DPS. Oops, Assassins have both if they want, and it's very easy to fit both into a build.

And? The point isn't whether poison is better than bleeding, it's how much dps you do overall.



And again, how many totally unavoidable attacks do Warriors have? Wild Blow. How many at least partially unavoidable attacks do axe warriors have? Two: add Swift Chop to the list. Compare that to how many completely unavoidable attacks (spell or otherwise) an Assassin has at their disposal.


That's all well and good, but your base dps needs to be high for this to be relevant. A build doing around 30-35 can just be healed through. And make no mistakes, assassins CAN go much higher. It's just that you have to make sacrifices to do so.



As for your suggestions for my build, please remember that the core build is indeed designed for RA. Yes, it should be obvious that some of those skills can be substituted. Namely the two monk skills can easily be substituted because not everyone will want or need them in all PvP situations. If I didn't need self-condition/hex removal, you bet I'd be tossing Locust's Fury in that slot instead.

But I think you'd be much better served by going A/N. Take plague touch and locust's fury instead of blessing and entangling asp. You're trying to build for all contingencies. You shouldn't. Condition removal and a self heal are more than enough for RA, provided you can bring the damage. In the rare situations where this won't suffice, just shrug and move on. The goal is not to win every match, it's to win the ones you can as fast as possible, because let's face it, 90% of random arena matches comes down to who has the least retarded teammates.



As for the rez slot, it's a no-brainer to toss any rez in there that you prefer for the situation, or if you don't need a rez to toss in any other useful skill.


Rez is mandatory for RA, no disagreement there.



One relatively obvious substitution *if* you don't need the self condition/hex removal is to go Necro secondary, replace Entangling Asp with Falling Spider, replace Blessed Light with Weaken Knees, and swap the monk res for a res signet.

This is a good idea, and I think much better than your original build. Weaken knees spamming alone will do wonders for your teammates if your attack has been shutdown by hexes.

IMMORTAlMITCH
20-04-2006, 06:58
One relatively obvious substitution *if* you don't need the self condition/hex removal is to go Necro secondary, replace Entangling Asp with Falling Spider, replace Blessed Light with Weaken Knees, and swap the monk res for a res signet.

Obvious as it may be, I posted it as a example build last page.

Nanashi
20-04-2006, 13:09
It's not half of frenzy. Frenzy is a flat 50% boost in dps. 33% decrease in attack speed -> 50% increase in attacks per second.

Frenzy works against you though. You take 50% more or double damage while haveing a 33% haste (speed). Which is what I think he was pointing out, the skill he speaks of has no downside to useing it. A warrior with frenzy will easily get mauled if another has something like Tiger's Fury or LR that both give 33% attack speed, for the 4 seconds Frenzy is up... you're gunna be hurting from each hit that lands on you.

Tralus
20-04-2006, 14:25
First off, most opponents are running around with a +3 rune, which means they're starting with 435 health. 20% of that is only 87. A warrior with 16 axe mastery is at most getting +42 straight bonus damage from Eviscerate. So assuming best conditions, your typical 16 AM warrior is getting 129 total bonus from Eviscerate. Median damage for a normal hit from a customized 15/50 axe is 27. Crit Damage from a customized 15/50 axe is 62. Let's add up the numbers:

Non-crit Eviscerate: 156
Crit Eviscerate: 191


For starters, most people in PvP have 485, not 435, you forgot about the superior vigor that any PvPer worth his weight in salt would pack. And if you really want to get technical, nearly every top tier guild has their members running PvE characters in GvG so they switch armor sets, increasing (and sometimes decreasing in the case of orders necros) their HP and AL as they see fit. But for sanities sake, the standard 1 Sup + 1 Vig configuration when determining HP is used.

And crit damage from a 15/50 Axe is 70 damage vs AL 60 w/ 9 Strength, 64 Damage if you discount the Strength Bonus. Take Wild Blow, a 15/50 Axe, and try it on a 60 AL dummy. No fuss no muss. From there on its basic math.



How often does an 8 rage skill recharge?


Difficult to say, with kiting targets, and IAS factored in. But I would say (if there is a abundance of targets, in other words you aren't chasing a lone person that is trying to sack your base), every 10 maybe 11 seconds.



Dagger has Twisting Fangs, which is a non-elite dual attack that costs only 10 energy and recharges in 15 seconds. It does Deep Wound *and* Bleeding for 21 seconds. An Assassin with 16 dagger mastery gets +21 straight bonus damage from it. Bleeding damage (if it's not removed) adds up to 126. Median damage for a dual hit from a customized 15/50 dagger if the Assassin has NO points in Critical Strikes at all is 46. Dual crit damage from a customized 15/50 dagger is 78. Let's add up the numbers:

Non-crit Twisting Fangs: 280
Crit Twisting Fangs: 312

Um, now WHO exactly is "at the top" for spike damage?


So wait, you are factoring BLEEDING damage into your spike? You DO know what a spike is right?

So using YOUR numbers, not mine, Your damage goes down to:

Non-Crit Twisting Fangs: 154
Crit Twisting Fangs: 186

A decent spike but nothing really spectacular by itself. Coupled with the high DPS output a Assassin can throw out, it may end up being something. It is too early to tell.



Again, if you're going to bring blanket statements to me, you better have the data and the math to back them up. Otherwise you're just perpetuating the same B.S. that's been going around for too long.

Your math is obviously skewed, as well as your understanding of some basic concepts.

Zero
20-04-2006, 16:04
Calm it, both of you. Keep it civil before I have to start handing out bans.

Patccmoi
20-04-2006, 17:37
Tralus, just want to point out about spike damage that Assassins are actually really not subpar even for fast spike (i.e. no need to to a 3 hit combo which truly isn't a spike).

If you pick the skills for it, you can easily spike well.

For example:

Palm Strike + Death Blossom at 13 CS-16 DM (this is pretty high stats, but it would be similar at 13 CS-14 DM which allows for 8-9 points in something else).

This deals 57 + 168 (2 x +42 on target, 2 x +42 AOE, both apply to target like Melandru's Assault for rangers) = 225 armor ignoring damage. And i didn't even include the 2 dagger attacks, which have around 33% chances to crit, and that could add up to something like 50 more damage. If you use an IAS (say Frenzy to spike), the damage comes in less than 1 second, and you can deal likely around 250-275. And you didn't even use the DW, so it can be combined with Evis-Exec, or PP-SD. It cost 10E total, both skills have 12 sec recharge (similar to Evis recharge in normal situations, better in a warrior/melee-hate environment), the first attack is a touch skill so there's absolutely to way to defend against it, so all you need is to get 1 hit through to deal pretty huge spike damage. You're looking at around 50%+ of target health with 1 assassin alone, and the rest of your build is open for pretty much anything else. You might say it's not an 'instant' spike, but neither is PP-SD, it has about the same time from hex application to SD, just like most wars spike with Evis-Exec. As long as the damage is apply in around 1 sec, it's still pretty much spiking.

If you want the DW, you can go for Palm Strike-Twisted Fangs

Then you have 57 + 42 Armor ignoring damage + DW + 2 Dagger hits. It's pretty similar to what Evis-Exec does. You have 15 more armor ignoring damage, but 2 dagger hits instead of 2 axe hits. Assassin has more chances to crit than war, but war 2 hits should deal more damage overall and crits for much more if they do.

I'm not trying to say Assassins are better than warriors, but their options are there too. They can crit extremely efficiently, and the Palm Strike-Death Blossom, assuming the skills don't change, is possibly the highest spike available currently and it doesn't use DW which imo is an advantage (as it leaves room for others to use it). 2 Assassins doing Palm-DB on a softie can likely kill it straight (should deal around 500-525 damage, most armor ignoring so even a warrior would be likely only 1 hit away from dead after it), leaving the rest of your team to focus on someone else.

As for OP's build, i can't say i like it. It seems like you want to be too 'sure' to hit and not be shutdowned and sacrifice a lot of damage to do so. In most games in RA (since that's where it's for) you'll have at least 1-2 targets that won't be able to block/evade your attacks. I'd much rather go for high damage on them and take them out fast so that your team gains a number advantage and can gang on the block/evade people instead of having a medium but reliable damage that will work on everyone. Killing someone fast and gain a number advantage is truly more favorable imo.

Your DPS isn't something that can't be healed fairly easily. Your Nine Tail deals around 100 damage, but once every 10 sec that's not scary, eles deal more with most spells that have similar recharge and it's just as reliable.

And since you use Shadow Refuge, i'll agree personally that CoP is just better to bring than Blessed Light. Less energy, hardly any cast time, skill not spell, heals you through Shadow Refuge ending.

Symbolic Self
20-04-2006, 17:48
Hmm, does Palm Strike have an aftercast? Reason I'm asking is that when I tested the necro touch skills they did have a .75 sec aftercast, even though they aren't spells.

If it does then your spike becomes a lot slower.

Patccmoi
20-04-2006, 18:08
Hmm, does Palm Strike have an aftercast? Reason I'm asking is that when I tested the necro touch skills they did have a .75 sec aftercast, even though they aren't spells.

If it does then your spike becomes a lot slower.

Hmm, i didn't notice that it does when i used it. If it does, then you could go for Golden Pheonix + Twisted Fangs. At 16 DM, you'd do +73 armor ignoring damage, DW and 3 dagger attacks. In Frenzy it's same time as Evis-Exec and it would deal similar damage, slightly lower. You can add things like Impale to raise your damage if you want, since if you don't use Palm Strike you can go for 8 CS and put 10 in Death. This could raise your damage by around 40-50 (not armor ignoring) and bring you on par with Evis-Exec spike.

Since you don't use your elite, you can use things like Way of the Empty Palm to require no energy, or Moebius Strike to recharge your skills right away, or Shroud of Silence, Beguiling Haze, Temple Strike for in-between spikes, Aura of Displacement, etc.

And i might've been wrong on DB :sad: . I was pretty sure it was same description as Melandru's Assault and that the AOE would apply on target AND adjacent foe (since target is an adjacent foe), but MA's description is different so it might not work. So the damage would go down quite a bit for Palm-DB to around + 141 armor ignoring damage and 2 hits. If it doesn't apply, then you might as well use Nine Tail, since Palm-Nine Tail can't be blocked/evaded at all.

shaktiboi
20-04-2006, 18:26
...This deals 57 + 168 (2 x +42 on target, 2 x +42 AOE, both apply to target like Melandru's Assault for rangers) = 225 armor ignoring damage.

...the Palm Strike-Death Blossom, assuming the skills don't change, is possibly the highest spike available currently and it doesn't use DW which imo is an advantage (as it leaves room for others to use it). 2 Assassins doing Palm-DB on a softie can likely kill it straight (should deal around 500-525 damage, most armor ignoring so even a warrior would be likely only 1 hit away from dead after it), leaving the rest of your team to focus on someone else.

As for OP's build, i can't say i like it. It seems like you want to be too 'sure' to hit and not be shutdowned and sacrifice a lot of damage to do so. In most games in RA (since that's where it's for) you'll have at least 1-2 targets that won't be able to block/evade your attacks. I'd much rather go for high damage on them and take them out fast so that your team gains a number advantage and can gang on the block/evade people instead of having a medium but reliable damage that will work on everyone. Killing someone fast and gain a number advantage is truly more favorable imo.

Your DPS isn't something that can't be healed fairly easily. Your Nine Tail deals around 100 damage, but once every 10 sec that's not scary, eles deal more with most spells that have similar recharge and it's just as reliable.

And since you use Shadow Refuge, i'll agree personally that CoP is just better to bring than Blessed Light. Less energy, hardly any cast time, skill not spell, heals you through Shadow Refuge ending.

I didn't know that the AOE damage from Death Blossom was also applied to the target. That's huge. :grin:

Your other comments about my original build are all right on too, and very useful. I can't say that I'd disagree with any of them. It was mostly an exercise in "can you make an assassin primary that cannot be shutdown, and what would it look like? Would it suck or would it be at least okay" That's why I preface the build with the comments that it is not an uber spike build, nor an uber DPS build.

Based on your clarifications about how Death Blossom works, I'd be much more prone to create a mobility build with Palm Strike-Death Blossom as its engine. I could see two Assassins on a team, whose only purpose is to appear out of nowhere and spike the soft targets dead in one shot. That would be quite fun, especially once they add native VoIP into the game (which the Jeff Strain podcast part 3 made clear is coming pretty soon).

Anyway, thanks for all the good feedback, everyone!:smiley:

shaktiboi
20-04-2006, 18:50
For starters, most people in PvP have 485, not 435, you forgot about the superior vigor that any PvPer worth his weight in salt would pack. And if you really want to get technical, nearly every top tier guild has their members running PvE characters in GvG so they switch armor sets, increasing (and sometimes decreasing in the case of orders necros) their HP and AL as they see fit. But for sanities sake, the standard 1 Sup + 1 Vig configuration when determining HP is used.

And crit damage from a 15/50 Axe is 70 damage vs AL 60 w/ 9 Strength, 64 Damage if you discount the Strength Bonus. Take Wild Blow, a 15/50 Axe, and try it on a 60 AL dummy. No fuss no muss. From there on its basic math.

Your math is obviously skewed, as well as your understanding of some basic concepts.

With 80 AL armor, max you can get with a +3 rune and a Sup vigor is 460. I just tested that.

I also tested crit damge with a customized 15/50 axe. Unfortunately, I haven't unlocked a sup axe mastery rune, so I did it with a +2 rune. The expected result based on math was a 61 damage crit. The actual result was a 61 damage crit. Based on math, the expected result for a +3 rune should be a 62 damage crit... or *maybe* a 63 damage crit. No way a 64 damage crit.

Can anyone with a sup axe rune confirm the value of a Wild Blow strike against an AL 60 dummy with 16 ranks in AM and a customized 15/50, and NO ranks in Strength or other damage modifiers?

Patccmoi
20-04-2006, 18:59
I didn't know that the AOE damage from Death Blossom was also applied to the target. That's huge. :grin:

Your other comments about my original build are all right on too, and very useful. I can't say that I'd disagree with any of them. It was mostly an exercise in "can you make an assassin primary that cannot be shutdown, and what would it look like? Would it suck or would it be at least okay" That's why I preface the build with the comments that it is not an uber spike build, nor an uber DPS build.

Based on your clarifications about how Death Blossom works, I'd be much more prone to create a mobility build with Palm Strike-Death Blossom as its engine. I could see two Assassins on a team, whose only purpose is to appear out of nowhere and spike the soft targets dead in one shot. That would be quite fun, especially once they add native VoIP into the game (which the Jeff Strain podcast part 3 made clear is coming pretty soon).

Anyway, thanks for all the good feedback, everyone!:smiley:

Read my post after tough. I tought it was like this for DB, but i might've been mislead. I can't confirm one way or another for now, but otherwise the AOE is only to adjacent foes and not target. Can't confirm atm :/

2 Assassins could possibly use Golden Pheonix + Twisted/Death Blossom (one each) + Moebius + Twisted/Death Blossom tough. Would take 4 hits, but would kill (+168 damage from DB, +84 damage from Twisted, +62 damage from Pheonix, +74 from Moebius, +DW is around 490 damage ignoring armor. They might actually die before the second dual attacks if you add dagger hits). In Frenzy it's still just a few seconds to do.

Just the Golden + Twisted/DB + Moebius does 262 damage ignoring armor + DW, so around 362. Add 8 dagger attacks, you can easily reach 120 damage with that. So it would be a 3 hits combo that could kill a softie straight and be ready again instantly as Moebius recharges it.

Tralus
20-04-2006, 19:19
With 80 AL armor, max you can get with a +3 rune and a Sup vigor is 460. I just tested that.


Eh?

I would say you are forgetting your +30 Fortitude Handle/Wrapping/Whatever, but that would bring your HP to 490, which is even stranger.

480 Base HP - 75 + 50 (Vigor) + 30 (Fortitude Mod) = 485

My fault for failing to mention the Fort Mod on weapons.



I also tested crit damge with a customized 15/50 axe. Unfortunately, I haven't unlocked a sup axe mastery rune, so I did it with a +2 rune. The expected result based on math was a 61 damage crit. The actual result was a 61 damage crit. Based on math, the expected result for a +3 rune should be a 62 damage crit... or *maybe* a 63 damage crit. No way a 64 damage crit.

Can anyone with a sup axe rune confirm the value of a Wild Blow strike against an AL 60 dummy with 16 ranks in AM and a customized 15/50, and NO ranks in Strength or other damage modifiers?

It's 63 just tried it again (Fresh PvP Char 15/50 Axe, Superior Axe, 16 Axe/0 Strength, nothing else but Wild Blow). Forgot to count the 1 Strength I had because of the Minor Strength rune before, thought it wouldn't factor in, but 63 + (63x.01) = 63.6 which the game rounds up to 64.

Tralus
20-04-2006, 19:25
2 Assassins could possibly use Golden Pheonix + Twisted/Death Blossom (one each) + Moebius + Twisted/Death Blossom tough. Would take 4 hits, but would kill (+168 damage from DB, +84 damage from Twisted, +62 damage from Pheonix, +74 from Moebius, +DW is around 490 damage ignoring armor. They might actually die before the second dual attacks if you add dagger hits). In Frenzy it's still just a few seconds to do.


Wouldn't that be a little unwieldy? Its a very nice damage combo granted, but a 4 hit combo is kind of pushing it.

Also pair of these guys might be a lot better on seperate targets, with some form of aoe support backing them up (yay, something that we can use a fire elementalist for! Although a water elementalist may do well with Deep Freeze as well, especially since it snares as an added bonus). That way you can let the AoE pummel the targets some and have the assassins finish the targets off. Most teams can't handle two targets going down at once.

shaktiboi
20-04-2006, 23:25
Eh?

I would say you are forgetting your +30 Fortitude Handle/Wrapping/Whatever, but that would bring your HP to 490, which is even stranger.

480 Base HP - 75 + 50 (Vigor) + 30 (Fortitude Mod) = 485

My fault for failing to mention the Fort Mod on weapons.



It's 63 just tried it again (Fresh PvP Char 15/50 Axe, Superior Axe, 16 Axe/0 Strength, nothing else but Wild Blow). Forgot to count the 1 Strength I had because of the Minor Strength rune before, thought it wouldn't factor in, but 63 + (63x.01) = 63.6 which the game rounds up to 64.

Good point on the Fortitude mod, I overlooked that myself. And thanks for verifying 63 damage max for an Axe crit (without Strength). Good to know nothing has snuck into the game that messes with the damage formulas. Also interesting to confirm that damage is rounded to the nearest integer, not always rounded up or always rounded down. In the case of a 67 baseline (15 ranks in Axe Mastery), the damage formula comes out under 61.5 so it rounds down to 61, as confirmed in game. Your test shows that a 68 baseline (16 ranks) rounds up to 63 damage from the formula-based value of 62.67 or thereabouts (quoting from memory).

All in all this has been a stimulating discussion on this thread. I'm back to drawing board on some build approaches, but at this point I'm going to wait for post-release, because undoubtedly Anet will change some skill statistics from the way they were in FPE.

Patccmoi
21-04-2006, 00:03
Double post! Why oh why!

Patccmoi
21-04-2006, 00:03
Wouldn't that be a little unwieldy? Its a very nice damage combo granted, but a 4 hit combo is kind of pushing it.

Also pair of these guys might be a lot better on seperate targets, with some form of aoe support backing them up (yay, something that we can use a fire elementalist for! Although a water elementalist may do well with Deep Freeze as well, especially since it snares as an added bonus). That way you can let the AoE pummel the targets some and have the assassins finish the targets off. Most teams can't handle two targets going down at once.

Well, as i said above, i think that in most cases simply Golden-Dual Attack-Moebius from the 2 Assassins, considering they have 16 DM, should more or less kill someone. 262 armor ignoring damage + DW + 8 dagger attacks, at 16 DM which is 16.2 damage on average without considering crit on a 72 AL target (because of 16 DM), which is an additional 130 damage AT WORSE (because honestly, if in 8 hits assassins don't score a single Critical Hits, you're incredibly unlucky, and it's more on 60AL targets), you're up to 492. Considering many have 485 max health (possibly a little more in Factions with new armors, but you SHOULD also score crits in there, possibly 2-4 to compensate) this kills. If not, well you can always throw another volley of your Dual Attacks.

I agree that many teams can't handle well 2 targets going down at once, but i think i'd much rather send 2 Assassins on one target (easy to coordinate together) and you still have 4 offensive players left that can take down someone else (Evis-Exec, Shadow Strike-Vamp Gaze, LOrb-LStrike and EBurn-Shatter Enchant for example). This way the 2 assassins can work on their own, hanging back possibly, then rushing in (say they use Dash with Return on a monk) and killing someone unexpectedly while the 4 others spike someone else.

I don't know how something like this would work, no one has enough experience in Factions here to do anything but suppositions. But it seems realistic and nothing extremely hard to accomplish, at least for the 2 assassins part.

shaktiboi
21-04-2006, 01:16
I don't know how something like this would work, no one has enough experience in Factions here to do anything but suppositions. But it seems realistic and nothing extremely hard to accomplish, at least for the 2 assassins part.

The math and the theory are there to back up the concept of a dual-sin team staying on the periphery of the action and looking for the opportunity to take down the soft targets by TPing in unexpectedly and whipping out a killing spike before anyone can stop them.

Assuming the post-release skills are there to enable this type of spike damage, I bet we see this popping up in the coordinated teams.

Telkandore
21-04-2006, 04:58
Cute.
From W/Mo with Healing Hands to this.