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View Full Version : Say, isn't Death Blossom a bit Broken?



Shadowleaf
19-04-2006, 20:24
Alright, So during the preview I tried this skill and it was great, I mean, I did 40-60 damage both hits to achieve around 80-120 damage with the skill PLUS 75 armor ignoring damage to each adjacent foe (35 damage twice because it's a dual attack). That's pretty nice, just all around good...

But imagine 6 assassins using that skill all at the same time on a group of enemies. That is a 450 damage AOE spike. You can then recharge the skill with Moebius Strike and finish off anything that managed to survive. How insane is that? With a proper build you can chain up to it in seconds with energy to spare.


Descriptions for your convenience:

Death Blossom: Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, Death Blossom strikes for +15-35 damage against target foe and all adjacent foes take 15-35 damage.

Moebius Strike: Must follow a Dual Attack. If it hits, Moebius Strike strikes for +10-30 damage. If you strike a foe whose Health is below 50%, all your other attack skills are recharged. This is an elite skill.

EDIT: Actually, it will be even better with 16 Dagger Mastery. Also, I have to note that the Assassins will have to attack several different targets in the group, because if the foe dies in between hits, the second hit will not trigger the AOE damage, and probably, the attack damage from all of them at once doing a dual attack would kill a single enemy too fast and lose up to half the AOE spike damage.

Mawgleah
19-04-2006, 21:29
If Dual Attack is interrupted (providing it can be interrupted), would that have an impact on how effective Death Blossom or Moebius Strike has?

Shadowleaf
19-04-2006, 21:41
If Dual Attack is interrupted (providing it can be interrupted), would that have an impact on how effective Death Blossom or Moebius Strike has?

Yes... but you would have to interrupt all of them at once to harm the spike very much. I don't know if you can interrupt during the dual attack though... The reason I think this skill is broken is that even if the spike is partially countered, the Assassins can still have enough energy to do something else, heal, etc... You can lead up to Death Blossom with Falling Spider after the enemies are knocked down, perhaps from an Earthquake or Dragon's Stomp.

Syes
19-04-2006, 22:41
Death Blossom is good, and in PvE terms it's very hard to justify using any other Dual Attack, but broken... ? Come on, compare it to any AoE skill of any other class and it's really not that superb. Flameburst, Spiteful Spirit, Energy Surge, Cyclone Axe...

There are plenty of good mass damage skills. I think it's only fair the sin gets one, unless you want it to be completely useless in PvE.

And please don't think this will ever be very dangerous in PvP. It may see some HA action, but that's it.

Longasc
19-04-2006, 23:08
This AoE is ADJACENT. I am not sure if it works in an arc before you or all around you, I guess it works this way, like Mark of Pain. It did not trigger AoE Panic during FPE.

Maybe you have found a strategy for a Faction PuG, 6 Assassins and 2 Ritualists (attention, irony):

All assassins death charge the same mob and start their combo. When all enemies surround them, they start Death Blossom.


Works beautifully.

But... and there is the big BUT:
During the FPE, there were many ranged casters, bowmen... lots of mixed groups, be it Echovald Forest or Jade Sea. An all melee mob group would be easily decimated by this maneuver, but if you get more than 2 mobs adjacent to your target, you are really lucky.

Syes managed to strike a group of Rot or Fungal Wallows during the FPE, he hit 3 or 4. But this will not happen all the time, so I would not deem this skills grossly overpowered.

Shadowleaf
19-04-2006, 23:40
What I am really afraid of is farming abuse I guess.

BLAHHH
20-04-2006, 01:14
Well every profession needs some way of farming. To complain about this for fear of 'farming abuse' is as valid a complaining about Ranger traps and Barrage for the same reason, or cyclone axe, or minions, etc etc.

That said, I do think Death Blossom is a bit overpowered, maybe not so much for PvP but definately for PvE - it doesn't need much balancing but something like a 10 energy cost rather than the current 5, or maybe the damage dealt to adjacent enemis could be lowered a bit (e.g. so the main target still takes +35 per hit, but the adjacent foes take say 17, roughly half the damage). Or a longer recharge time, or up the damage a tiny bit but then make it an elite, etc etc - really any of the usual small balances will do, though a 'big nerf' (e.g. an energy increase, a damage decrease, AND a recharge increase) is certainly not needed.

Shadowleaf
20-04-2006, 01:25
Oh I don't think it needs a big nerf. I totally agree with everything you said, BLAHHH.

Well, personally I hope to abuse the skill the way it is. :D

MaximumSquid
20-04-2006, 01:48
I don't see how you could spike with it when everyone on your team would have to first lay in with an offhand attack.

Also the AoE damage is crap compared to what a Grasping Was Kuurong / Aftershock team could accomplish.

The skill is ment to be on par with Warrior AoE like crude swing and cyclone axe.

I haven't seen either of those become popular in a spike form so I don't think we'll see death blossom really take root on the spiking metagame either.

IMMORTAlMITCH
20-04-2006, 06:41
Alright, So during the preview I tried this skill and it was great, I mean, I did 40-60 damage both hits to achieve around 80-120 damage with the skill PLUS 75 armor ignoring damage to each adjacent foe (35 damage twice because it's a dual attack).

Uhm, how does death blossom ignore armor?

Shadowleaf
20-04-2006, 07:47
The AOE damage from Death Blossom ignores armor. What do you mean, "How"?

So maximum squid, the damage I was talking about was armor ignoring. And I already have a way to do it quickly.

An elementalist casts Earthquake on the enemies you want to spike, which allows the assassins to use Falling Spider, an Off Hand Attack. Then they all do their Death Blossoms on nearby targets.

The spike is good because it's very low energy aside from the earthquake, which only needs to be done one time. Also, if you don't like that there are plent of ways the Assassins can each individually knock down their targets to start the spike, of course, that is harder to synchronize than the earthquake version.

Longasc
20-04-2006, 08:13
Too complicated. Just do it with 6 assassins doing death blossom rougly at the same time. :)

You must only make sure all mobs are at the same spot, waiting for everyone to do lead hand / offhand attack and THEN you can start the group nuking by death blossom.

But hey, for farming purposes solo farming is way to go, and a death blossom spike requires several assassins. So umm... and as I already said, many mixed groups in Factions, not likely that this trick will really kick too much ***.

Well, in 9 days we will see if people will use it for farming. I doubt it, Assassins have some nice tricks that farmers could use, but as a primary Assassins are really not my first choice for farming.

fallot
20-04-2006, 11:51
Uhm, how does death blossom ignore armor?

Like the +damage from all attack skills ignores armor.

Nanashi
20-04-2006, 12:47
Uhm, how does death blossom ignore armor?

Basicly you have your target and lets say three others close by. If the attack lands on your target then all adjacent foes recieve damage. This means it by passes armor if it lands on your target and IF those others are near by.

If anything I saw this skill to be more related to hundred blades since it double attacks and strikes all adjacent foes. I believe DB is 360 around your target. This skill does have potential since it's energy cost is low and has favorable damage but the problem is the adjacent part. It's not every day people huddle up that close for them all to be hit by DB. Yes, it would work for spikeing but again, getting everybody together would be a problem. People will spread for sure if 6 assassins rush into the middle.

Patccmoi
20-04-2006, 15:54
Instead of Moebius, why not use Palm Strike?

Palm and Blossom have same recharge, total cost is 15E.

Say you go for something like 13 CS (for +3), 14 DM, and something else (maybe 9 in Shadow Arts, or a secondary, etc).

Palm Strike hits for 57 armor ignoring damage at 13 CS, and it's a touch skill (basically, no defense exists against touch skills except don't be in touch range, and teleports can make up for this)

Follow straight with a Death Blossom, hitting for 152 armor ignoring damage to your target, + daggers damage, likely around 195 total damage. The full ARMOR IGNORING damage is 209, total should be around 250 or more if you crit, not bad at all, it hits in a very short interval and it doesn't give time for them to throw a block enchant on target, so unless you hit someone who's already protected you shouldn't miss. Otherwise you can always use something like Way of the Fox.

2 Assassins doing this would likely kill a target straight with 418 armor ignoring damage + 4 dagger attacks.


If you to kill a target on your own, you could go for:

Palm Strike, Death Blossom, Golden Pheonix Strike, Twisted Fangs.

As long as you're enchanted, this would work. And Way of the Fox would surely make a great enchant for it, otherwise Shadow Arts have tons of them.

You deal 57 + 152 + 29 + 38 armor ignoring damage, target is Poison-Bleeding-Deep Wound. From the armor ignoring damage alone, you deal around 275 damage, + 5 dagger hits, + Deep Wound, + bleeding.

Death Blossom is definitely crazy tough. A 5E/12 recharge attack dealing over 140 armor ignoring damage + 2 dagger hits is pretty insane. At 16 DM it's something like 168 armor ignoring damage...

arredondo
20-04-2006, 17:11
Hmmmm, I think Golden Phoenix Strike needs the target to be enchanted, not you. Still, some good ideas here.... but I don't understand a few things. Death Blossom doing armor ignoring damage for one; we know this for sure? I mean I can see that for the AoE damage, but how does it ignore damage on the target? The descrip says the same type of text as it does for any other attack skill. (EDIT: answered above and below).

Also, how is 152 arrived at? 26+26=52. You might get 25 average for the base hits, which comes to 102. Twisting Fangs still stands out for its 10+10+100+25+25= 170.

What did I leave out if anything?

Patccmoi
20-04-2006, 17:30
Hmmmm, I think Golden Phoenix Strike needs the target to be enchanted, not you. Still, some good ideas here.

It's you since last FPE, unless they change it back by release. First FPE it was on an enchanted target, then they switched it to 'you need to be enchanted'.

arredondo
20-04-2006, 17:33
I see... I added other questions above if you can answer them as well.

Patccmoi
20-04-2006, 17:48
I see... I added other questions above if you can answer them as well.

Hmm, i was pretty sure Death Blossom worked like Melandru's Assault, i.e. your target receives the damage from the direct attack + the AOE because your target is an adjacent foe. But i may be wrong.

If it's not, it deals +70 armor ignoring damage at level 12 DM, which can go up to +84 at 16 DM (+42 +42). If it does, it deals +140 damage to target at 12 DM which can go up to +168 at 16 DM.

Twisted Fangs is +21 +21 at 16 DM, but scores DW. It would be better if DB doesn't work as i think it does, but more energy and longer recharge.

As for the +damage ignoring armor, that's true for every single attack skill in the game. If it says +35 damage, well that +35 damage ignores armor.

Shadowleaf
21-04-2006, 10:06
As for the +damage ignoring armor, that's true for every single attack skill in the game. If it says +35 damage, well that +35 damage ignores armor.

That is not what I am talking about... It deals a straight 35 damage to all adjacent foes twice for a total of 70 AOE damage. This damage ignores armor.

But I didn't know that the +damage on attacks ignored armor... That would explain why my Warrior takes 0 from minotuars but 24ish when they do Mighty Blow. :tongue:

Syes
21-04-2006, 18:57
I should just clarify that your target does not take the additional AoE damage, as the AoE damage is done to foes adjacent to your target, not adjacent to you. Think of it as a single shot (well, double) Mark of Pain.

Nanashi
22-04-2006, 12:31
I should just clarify that your target does not take the additional AoE damage, as the AoE damage is done to foes adjacent to your target, not adjacent to you. Think of it as a single shot (well, double) Mark of Pain.

I thought it worked like Hundred Blades. Once successfully hiting the second hit would hit your target and in an AOE and all those around. Even if not though, I could of sworn I saw it hit my target twice. O.o

Longasc
22-04-2006, 13:33
Well, Death Blossom is a dual attack, and strikes TWICE.

So you get the effect twice, too.

fallot
23-04-2006, 21:09
I thought it worked like Hundred Blades. Once successfully hiting the second hit would hit your target and in an AOE and all those around. Even if not though, I could of sworn I saw it hit my target twice. O.o

Death Blossom does +35 damage (at 12 DM) twice, meaning a total of 70 damage to your target and all foes adjacent to your target. So its somewhat like Hundred Blades except that your primary target will also take dagger damage from the two hits whereas adjacent foes take only the +70 damage.