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View Full Version : Restoration Line Needs ALOT of help



Tomato Bomb
03-05-2006, 04:27
The restoration line is an interesting concept. Healing/Protection previously being spheres limited to monk primaries, I came into this attribute line quite optimistically. I thought to myself "Wow, ANET has finally decided to break the monk monopoly on direct damage mitigation (i.e. healing)". Sadly i've been sorely disappointed. Divine Favor aside, ritualist restoration spells are pretty much for the most part gimped versions of their healing counterparts.

Large Heals Example:

Ritualist
Spirit Light (availability)
Description: Scrifice 10% Health. Target ally is healed for 50-134. If any spirits are in the area around you, you don't sacrifice Health.
Energy Cost: 10
Activation Time: 1 Second.
Recharge Time: 4 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Restoration Magic. Increases Health recovered
Skill Type: Spell.

Monk
Jaimei's Gaze (availability)
Description: Heal target other ally for 35-151 health.
Energy Cost: 10
Activation Time: 3/4ths of a Second.
Recharge Time: 3 Seconds.
Linked Attribute Healing Prayers. Increases health recovered.
Skill Type: Spell.


As a party support spell, Jamei's Gaze (aka Heal Other) is way superior to Spirit Light. It heals for more (not even including divine favor - a primary attribute which benefits ALL monk lines as opposed to spawning power which is very limited ATM), has a better activation time, and even a better recharge. The only possible benefit of Spirit Light over Heal Other is the ability to self target. Frankly though, it's not likely you'll be able to Spirit Light youself for more than 100 health due to the 10% sacrifice unless in the area of a spirit limitation. Spirits are very fragile, and more likely than not, either your spirits will have died, or you've had to run past their area to kite properly if circumstances necessitate you use a heal that "big". Besides, ritualists arent going to use this as a self heal when 9 times out of ten they are gonna use Generous was Tsungrai, which makes the ability to self target with Spirit Light moot.


Spam Heals:

Ritualist
Mend Body and Soul (availability)
Description: Target ally is healed for 10-70 Health. That ally loses one Condition for each spirit in your area.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 3/4ths of a Second.
Recharge Time: 3 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Restoration Magic. Increases Health recovered.
Skill Type: Spell.

Soothing Memories (availability)
Description: Target ally is healed for 10-82 Health. If you are holding an item, you gain 3 Energy.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 1 Second.
Recharge Time: 5 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Restoration Magic. Increases health recovered.
Skill Type: Spell.

Wielder's Boon (availability)
Description: Heal target ally for 15-51 points. If that ally is under the effects of a Weapon Spell, Wielder's Boon heals for an additional 10-34 Health.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 1 Second.
Recharge Time: 4 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Restoration Magic. Increases Health recovered.
Skill Type: Spell.

Vengeful Weapon (availability)
Description: For 8 seconds, the next time target ally takes damage from a foe, that ally steals up to 15-47 Health from that foe.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 1/4th of a Second.
Recharge Time: 3 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Restoration Magic. Increases amount of Health stolen.
Skill Type: Weapon Spell.


Monk
Healing Whisper (availability)
Description: Target other ally is healed for 40-88. This spell has half the normal range.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 1 Second.
Recharge Time: 1 Second.
Linked Attribute Healing Prayers. Increases health recovered.
Skill Type: Spell.

Dwayna's Kiss (availability)
Description: Heal target other ally for 15-51 points and an additional 5-17 points for each enchantment or hex on that ally.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 1 Second.
Recharge Time: 3 Seconds.
Linked Attribute Healing Prayers. Increases health recovered.
Skill Type: Spell.

Orison of Healing (availability)
Description: Heal target ally for 20-60 health.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 1 Second.
Recharge Time: 2 Seconds.
Linked Attribute Healing Prayers. Increases health recovered.
Skill Type: Spell.

Reversal of Fortune (availability)
Description: For 8 seconds, the next time target ally would take damage, that ally gains that amount of health instead, maximum 15-67.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 1/4th of a Second.
Recharge Time: 2 Seconds.
Linked Attribute Protection Prayers. Increases maximum health recovered.
Skill Type: Enchantment Spell.



That's not even all the monk spam heals available. I don't think i even have to really explain the inequity here. Again even ignoring divine favor, the monk spells are still more slot/time/energy/recharge effective than their closest ritualist counterparts in just about any support situation. Mend body and soul heals for a rather pitiful amount and its secondary effect is not likely to activate because of the ease of spirit death/painfully long spirit recharge times. Soothing memories has only a slightly better heal, but recharges in 5 SECONDS, which in practice disqualifies it from true spam heal catagory. That and it requires you to be holding an item to regain 3 energy. So in order to regain 3 energy in casting Soothing Memories, you only have to sacrifice about 15-17 maximum energy you would be getting from your weapon+focus. The only item that could mitigate that penalty would be Mighty was Vorizun, but that's in the communing line. If you use mighty was Vorizun, you can't use Generous was Tsungrai, which ends up bringing problems of its own. Wielder's boon has a fairly pitiful heal amount as well, its bonus being a rather pidly amount for the condition it requires. The recharge time is also ridiculously long as well compared to monk spells. Vengeful weapon seems nice at first. Combo it with wielders boon. Woot! Unfortunately the heal amount sucks and the synergy with wielders boon is nonexistent in actual practice. In practice its more likely that vengeful weapon will activate before you can combo wielders boon off of it. The more logical combination would be with weapon of warding, which is a spell that has problems as well.

Which is?:

Ritualist
Weapon of Warding (availability)
Description: For 5-10 seconds, target ally has a Weapon of Warding that grants target ally +2-4 Health regeneration and a 50% chance to block.
Energy Cost: 10
Activation Time: 2 Seconds.
Recharge Time: 5 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Restoration Magic. Increases duration and Health regeneration.
Skill Type: Weapon Spell.

Monk
Guardian (availability)
Description: For 5 seconds, target ally has a 20-44% chance to block attacks.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 1 Second.
Recharge Time: 2 Seconds.
Linked Attribute Protection Prayers. Increases block chance.
Skill Type: Enchantment Spell.

So wheres the problem? Weapon of warding lasts about twice as long, gives a little more block percentage, and a bit of regeneration to boot. Heck, it can't even be disenchanted. Must be fine right? Well that's all well and good but its got a WHOPPING 2 WHOLE SECOND cast time. That is a lifetime for reactionary spells. That's a lifetime for any spell. You will NEVER get this off against a half decent interrupter. People (and PvE AI) can ocassionally catch guardian, but for the most part, it's still worthwhile to stick on your skillbar because it can be fairly reliably cast. Weapon of warding on the other hand.......:undecided: As for the whole can't be disenchanted bonus, well.......weapon spells can't be stacked either, so it's really a double edged sword, and with most weapon spells having painful recharges, you're placed in a catch-22 situation.

This is an Elite?:

Ritualist
Spirit Light Weapon (availability)
Description: For 10 seconds, target ally gains 3-13 Health each second. Spirit Light Weapon ends if that ally is not near a spirit. This is an elite skill.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 1 Second.
Recharge Time: 5 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Restoration Magic. Increases Health recovered.
Skill Type: Weapon Spell.

Monk
Healing Breeze (availability)
Description: For 10 seconds, target ally gains +3-8 health regeneration.
Energy Cost: 10
Activation Time: 1 Second.
Recharge Time: 2 Seconds.
Linked Attribute Healing Prayers. Increases additional health regeneration.
Skill Type: Enchantment Spell.

I mean really......cmon. Sure you save maybe 5 energy with Spirit Light Weapon, but you've gimped movement capability, and added an extra 3 second recharge in the process.

There's more to be said in regards to the poor state of the restoration line, but for now i'd like some outside input on others opinions. I realise Union and shelter are great for damage mitigation, but those spirits are not in the restoration line. I only criticize because i had (and hopefully still have) high hopes for this attribute line.

Tessalina
03-05-2006, 04:50
But, mix a ritualist with a monk class and you get a healer combination that is even better. For example, a Rit/Monk makes an excellent infuser, also things like Healing breeze will stack with weapon of warding, spirit of recuperation, etc.

I will agree that the restoration line, on its own, is nice but not as good as monk, but if you pair restoration with monk you can get some pretty impressive results.

Alternatively, if you combine the restoration line with the communing line, you can also gain access to stuff like vital weapon, shelter, and union which can add even more to your party's defensive capability.

lavenbb
03-05-2006, 04:59
I think recuperation is nice, a restorer is definitely NOT a monk. I have been restoring for awhile now and I find that highly responsive "spike" heals are just not viable from a ritualist.

as a restorer you have to prepare ahead of time and use skills that prevent damage from happening (like prot monks) and the sorta gimped healing is for mending the damage that can't be avoided. It's a different playstyle I guess.

builds that work:
recuperation + preservation, and various dmg lessening skills
preservation heals for a lot, but it's not responsive enough, so you have to hold your allies long enough for the 4 sec that it takes for preservation to heal

weapon spells + spirit channeling + recuperation
basically a prot build with lots of life regen, spirit channeling is like blood is power on self, if you have recup up you wont even notice the life lost

the list goes on :) I'm not a fan of monks myself, and I'm happy with my Rt/R (all rit skills) for now

powercozmic
03-05-2006, 06:09
This is an impossiblly stupid comparison of the monk and ritualist.

Where is recuperation and more importantly where is preservation ?

Try this skillset :

Recuperation
Shadowsong
Mighty was vorizun/blind was mingson
Vengeful weapon
Ritual Lord
Mend body and soul
Soothing memories
Flesh of my Flesh

Restoration 16
Communing 12
Spawning Power 7

When comboed with Ritual Lord recuperation is equivalent to mass mending round the clock for 15 energy. Lets see a monk do that.

Mend body and soul heals for 90 health AND removes a condition for every spirit.

Soothing memories heals for 100 hp and if ur holding an item (which I always do) gives u 3 energy back. So thats 100 hp for 2 energy ! Also I hold ashes of mighty was vorizun to give me + 15 armor and + 20 energy + I wear oracle's armor (+10 armor when holding an item) Total AL = 85 ! and thats ALL the time cos I always hold mighty was vorizun. I'm a tank ! :grin:

Shadowsong blinds for 5 secs every time it attacks. Comboed with ritual lord, shadowsong always lives and 1 foe will be constantly blinded till death.

Vengeful weapon ? MUCH better life steal than vampiric gaze. cheaper, faster recharge and steals as much life and better still can be used on allies.

So, what I get with this build is round the clock mending, blinds, armor buff, heals, condition removal and lifesteal. Very effective and I've done tough missions with henchies alone.

Yes every build has its counter and interrupts are nasty to this build. the only drawback is the long casting times. But apart from that, Restoration is a very good support class. Cant argue with that.

Im not saying its healing rits are better than monks only different and effective. (You dont see a monk use blinds as protection do u ? :wink: )

ctrl alt da leet
04-05-2006, 05:42
Wow, that sounds like a nice build.

Sar Ar Qua
04-05-2006, 10:44
Compare Ritualist to a Monk in healing!? In theory I don't think Ritualist is suppose to come ahead or even at par with Monk healing! So I don't see how that can happen in practice and I don't want to see that! Else what's the point of having a monk class!?

Please, the answer is simple.. think..

the grieving terror
04-05-2006, 10:51
The idea was that one profession was never even meant to be compared to another like this. It's like saying that the Mesmer and the Necromancer can both remove hexes, but one does damage to the foe, one damages yourself... and then complaining.

It's not supposed to be a replacement for the Monk profession. I'm loving the new Restoration heals, for support. But I'd never accept an invite from a group asking for a Restoration Ritualist instead of a Monk. They were never supposed to replace Monks.

I suggest you look at the Ritualist profession in a slightly different way. :wink:

ckenni
04-05-2006, 10:58
The restoration line is good but I still feel that they need to shave off a few seconds in the casting time of their heals so that Ritualists can be much more competitive as a healer.

Feynt
04-05-2006, 12:15
They already are, but on a global scale thanks to their spirits rather than on an individual scale like monks. A restoration ritualist and a healer monk can keep a party alive indefinantly.

Doyle
04-05-2006, 12:39
The restoration line is good but I still feel that they need to shave off a few seconds in the casting time of their heals so that Ritualists can be much more competitive as a healer.

They are not supposed to compete with monks, they are supposed to compliment monks.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
04-05-2006, 13:03
Spirit Light Weapon cannot be overlooked because at its max, it is:
#1 Not Regen, meaning it will never do nothing because the play already has troll ungent on him or whatever
#2 5 Energy... pretty low energy cost for a 150 heal at 16 resto... and also it is relatively spammable
#3 Not an Enchantment, can't be removed (but also can't cover other enchantments and doesn't help some skills like CoP and Ether Renewal)

However, even after this, I think you are right and it should probably heal for more (maybe 18 with 16 resto).

Phoebus
04-05-2006, 13:38
Orison can heal for up to 121hp, it's spammable, 5 energy, does not requires the target to sit near a spirit, has an instant effect, stacks with regen, isn't an enchantment can't be removed, and isn't elite.

And it's not the best monk heal by far.

----

An often ignored advantage of Restoration is that it isn't dependent on a primary attribute to be effective, thus secondary Ritualist can use Restoration skills nearly as well as a primary ritualist.

All at L12 restoration:

Generous was Tsungrai is probably the best self-heal in the game. At L12 it's a 180-200hp self-heal with a 122hp max health buff if you hold on the ashes all for only 5 energy.

Mend Body and Soul is a better heal than orison without Divine Favor (70hp vs. 60hp). And can remove as many conditions on the target as there are spirits near you. Thus it doubles as a heal and a condition removal.

Spirit Transfer is a 189hp/0.25s cast heal if there's any spirit in your aggro bubble (yes the range is that far).

Soothing Memory is a 82hp heal for 2 energy if you hold an item (hint: Generous was Tsungrai).

Recuperation is Mending on the whole team for 39 seconds for only 15 energy. (234hp healed per ally)

Tomato Bomb
04-05-2006, 20:36
I'd like to address some comments made:


This is an impossiblly stupid comparison of the monk and ritualist.

Where is recuperation and more importantly where is preservation ?

Recuperation and preservation have no comparisons to any monk spells because they are spirits. I was trying to debate the mechanics of comparable skills.


When comboed with Ritual Lord recuperation is equivalent to mass mending round the clock for 15 energy. Lets see a monk do that.

Who needs a mass mending (that tops out at 3 pips by the way) when a monk can mitigate more damage and maintain positive energy flow by comboing bonding and balths spirit. This generates so much in energy in fact that it's quite easy to still spam RoF.


Mend body and soul heals for 90 health AND removes a condition for every spirit.

Mend ailment will remove a condition without stipulation, and on average heal for at least 40+ health due to the number of remaining conditions and divine favor synergy.


Soothing memories heals for 100 hp and if ur holding an item (which I always do) gives u 3 energy back. So thats 100 hp for 2 energy ! Also I hold ashes of mighty was vorizun to give me + 15 armor and + 20 energy + I wear oracle's armor (+10 armor when holding an item) Total AL = 85 ! and thats ALL the time cos I always hold mighty was vorizun. I'm a tank !

I addressed soothing memories in my main post. This comment wasn't a very good refutation of my argument. To refresh your memory: "Soothing memories has only a slightly better heal, but recharges in 5 SECONDS, which in practice disqualifies it from true spam heal catagory. That and it requires you to be holding an item to regain 3 energy. So in order to regain 3 energy in casting Soothing Memories, you only have to sacrifice about 15-17 maximum energy you would be getting from your weapon+focus. The only item that could mitigate that penalty would be Mighty was Vorizun, but that's in the communing line. If you use mighty was Vorizun, you can't use Generous was Tsungrai, which ends up bringing problems of its own." But if you want to play the numbers game well:

Signet of Devotion (availability)
Description: Heal target ally for 14-83 points.
Energy Cost: None.
Activation Time: 2 Seconds.
Recharge Time: 5 Seconds.
Linked Attribute Divine Favor. Increases health recovered.
Skill Type: Signet.

No item holding requirement. Same recharge. It even heals for more at equivalent attribute point settings. Oh and 85 armor does not a tank make. Just ask those assassins with the +15 defense while attacking armor.


Shadowsong blinds for 5 secs every time it attacks. Comboed with ritual lord, shadowsong always lives and 1 foe will be constantly blinded till death.

This is communning. The topic was restoration mechanics.


Vengeful weapon ? MUCH better life steal than vampiric gaze. cheaper, faster recharge and steals as much life and better still can be used on allies.

The life steal is a not really better than vampiric gaze. Vampiric gaze is also non-conditional. Besides, in every situation RoF would outperform this spell even without divine favor bonus. Doubly so with.


Compare Ritualist to a Monk in healing!? In theory I don't think Ritualist is suppose to come ahead or even at par with Monk healing! So I don't see how that can happen in practice and I don't want to see that! Else what's the point of having a monk class!?

If ritualist (especially class primaries) are supposed to be inferior in all ways to monks at healing support, why bother having a restoration line at all. Seems like even communing is superior at damage mitigation with shelter, union, and shadowsong.


The idea was that one profession was never even meant to be compared to another like this. It's like saying that the Mesmer and the Necromancer can both remove hexes, but one does damage to the foe, one damages yourself... and then complaining.

First off, Necromancers have no hex removal. It is the exclusive purview of monks and mesmers (formerly rangers as well). Secondly, professions (and more specifically functions and mechanics of said professions) SHOULD and ARE compared in this manner for balance purposes. Why do you suppose they buffed beastmastery skill damage over and above that of warrior weapon skill damage. To compensate for the pets poor AI in similar functions.


It's not supposed to be a replacement for the Monk profession. I'm loving the new Restoration heals, for support. But I'd never accept an invite from a group asking for a Restoration Ritualist instead of a Monk. They were never supposed to replace Monks.

Where in any of my arguments did I say ritualists were meant to replace monks? As for grouping with restoration ritualist, with the poor state of the restoration line, why bother when another monk will outperform in group dynamics.


I suggest you look at the Ritualist profession in a slightly different way.

Assumptions on the way I "look at the ritualist profession" based on my opinions of one attribute line seem trite. If you're going to suggest an insight into my views of the ritualist profession (as opposed to one single attribute line), try to think more holistically.


They are not supposed to compete with monks, they are supposed to compliment monks.

Again i'd like to mention that nowhere did I say that ritualists were meant to compete with monks. I was under the impression that the restoration line was created in order for a non-monk primary class to provide damage mitigation/heal support in a competant capacity. A way to heal and protect, just differently. As it stands, restoration is frankly not up to snuff. Adding another monk would compliment other monks in a party more than a restoration ritualist.


An often ignored advantage of Restoration is that it isn't dependent on a primary attribute to be effective, thus secondary Ritualist can use Restoration skills nearly as well as a primary ritualist.

Herein lies another problem. I'm sure any of you have played mesmer primaries, you'll know what i'm talking about.


Generous was Tsungrai is probably the best self-heal in the game. At L12 it's a 180-200hp self-heal with a 122hp max health buff if you hold on the ashes all for only 5 energy.

Mend Body and Soul is a better heal than orison without Divine Favor (70hp vs. 60hp). And can remove as many conditions on the target as there are spirits near you. Thus it doubles as a heal and a condition removal.

Soothing Memory is a 82hp heal for 2 energy if you hold an item (hint: Generous was Tsungrai).

I've already discussed the problems with these two but to F.Y.I.:
"Mend body and soul heals for a rather pitiful amount and its secondary effect is not likely to activate because of the ease of spirit death/painfully long spirit recharge times. Soothing memories has only a slightly better heal, but recharges in 5 SECONDS, which in practice disqualifies it from true spam heal catagory. That and it requires you to be holding an item to regain 3 energy. So in order to regain 3 energy in casting Soothing Memories, you only have to sacrifice about 15-17 maximum energy you would be getting from your weapon+focus. The only item that could mitigate that penalty would be Mighty was Vorizun, but that's in the communing line. If you use mighty was Vorizun, you can't use Generous was Tsungrai, which ends up bringing problems of its own."

As for preservation and recuperation. What can I say really. One dragon stomp or a nice triple chop and cyclone axe will have you waiting another 45-60 seconds at least to be useful again. Sadly even lvl 13 bone minions have better durability, and they summon two at a time. But wait, what about ritual lord? Can't recasting these spirits mitigate that problem? Well not really. The issue of durability and number of spirits is still not addressed. In the meantime, you are rendered useless and vunerable for the duration (3 to 5 seconds) of your casting. That's not even factoring in distracting shot, lunge, chop, psychic distraction, or diversion, all of which will serve to negate any real benefit from ritual lord.


Oh, apologies in advance for anyone who is under the impression that the tone of my post is smarmy. Frustration can often seem that way.

Falrow
04-05-2006, 22:57
I see that restoration can never heal at the same rate as any monk. Might make a good support healer, but NONE of the elites are very good.

Preservation is crap, by numbers it seems good but it's healing area is really small and ends up never healing anyone who needs it.

Tranquil? you have got to be kidding.

Vengful is not bad in RA, cause it's funny to watch people kill themselfs. Useless in real pvp, they will just avoid you and get the other monk/healer.

Spirit light weapon. It doesn't heal much really, too situationnal, can get overridden. Might work with an organised team and lots of spirits.

Where does that leave you? Spirit transfer was amasing, then they put a 10 second recharge on it. Makes it useless. You *could* use it to infuse, it's fun, but if they spike without it being charged your ****ed, which Rspike could do.

So, infuse health + generous. Good combination on the infuser, don't really need points in healing to make infuse work. Could work.

Otherwise? Doesn't heal fast enought to be in a normal monk position.

Mend body and soul can be REALLY effective if there is a ritual lord, but thats rare.

Oh and by the way, those spirits are very hard to kill with 16 communing and 15 spawning, which is what a ritual lord runs (or should run).

But yes, restoration seems to really suck in general.

-Fal

milias
04-05-2006, 23:28
Maybe try Me/Rt for fast healing?

nyairj
05-05-2006, 07:16
Based on my experience with the restoration line so far, I agree that it needs help. I tried being the primary healer in some of the earlier missions, and it's more difficult than it is when I'm using a monk, although it's workable. The longer casting times made a noticable difference when it hit the fan; it seems like an eternity when multiple people are taking spike damage. A person could be full health when I start casting Weapon of Warding and be approaching half health be the time it's finally executed.

The need to cast spirits and hold items in order to fully effective is cumbersome, ineffectual, and makes restoration specialists less mobile than monks. Getting yourself set up before a battle consumes energy, and holding an item reduces your max energy, adding insult to injury. Monks get to start with full energy, they don't even have to handicap themselves to achieve full strength (and their full strength is superior to the ritualist's in what looks like almost every way).

Recuperation is very nice, though, if the spirit survives long enough. It's +3 health regeneration at higher levels, which means 6 health a second per ally (includes pets and minions, I think). If you have 8 people on your team, that's 48 health a second. Add ten minions and two pets and it's 120 health a second. The actual healing is usually less, though, since you get healed even when you're at max health. Too bad spirits are so easy to kill.

I'm disappointed. I was hoping for a viable alternative to healing/protection monks.

Starfury
05-05-2006, 08:30
I agree that the restoration line hasnt really impressed me. The restrictions on mobility due to spirits and the long cast times and recharges make it hard to heal effectively compared to my monk.

IMO, spirit transfer and recuperation are the two best skills in that that line. The 10 second cooldown on spirit transfer really limits the skill though.

Tarew
05-05-2006, 19:25
Pfeh, some people commenting in here have OBVIOUSLY never played a Restoration Ritualist themselves...not properly at any rate.
While I agree that a Restoration Ritualist is not as proficient at reacting to spikes as a monk, he is actually better at group healing if you ask me and just as useful if not more so if the enemies aren't spiking.

In fact, using my Restoration ritualist (with restoration at only 13 mind you because Ritualist runes are impossible to get), along with the help of one Assassin/Monk who morphed to a support healer for the mission (it was impossible to find a monk), I kept my entire party alive in Vizunah Square (and mind you there were 3 assassins in it and no tanks).
I believe we suffered 2 or 3 deaths (one of them being myself because a boss that popped out of the ground behind me without me noticing died and exploded on me) in the entire mission and we were never in danger of not being able to complete it.
Secrets: Recuperation (which is a brilliant skill), Weapon of Warding and Resilient Weapon (an EXCELLENT skill which is often completely overlooked...Monks have absolutely no skill that matches the efficiency of this unless it's an elite) to keep the Assassins alive, some of which were quite frail.
Mend Weapon and Soul on everything I wasn't using Resilient Weapon on (this is the main weakness, the pure heals the ritualist has are obviously not as efficient as the monks, nor were they ever meant to be).
Vengeful Weapon which is good for dealing damage as well as just healing especially when paired with Arcane Echo as I use it (and you can cast it on allies as well so people can't just avoid this by not targeting someone as someone here claimed).
And off course Flesh to my Flesh to be used in case something went wrong...because I used the +hitpoint armor, a rune of Major Vigor and no superior runes (though not voluntarily) it usually raised people to about 3/4 of their life and a little bit of energy as well...more than enough to make sure they don't die again right away.

Overall, while indeed not very good to counter spiking (than again, if you want to have your ritualist do this...there is a Communing tree that is EXTREMELY capable of protecting an entire group against spiking using Soul Twisting/Ritual Lord + Shelter and Union) the Ritualist can provide lovely group healing in a quick and energy efficient measure against anything other than spiking...on par or from my experiences even better than a monk.
For PvP yes I'd have to say the monk is superior because those teams nearly always focus on one character at a time (though if you ever run into a degen build the ritualist would be infinitely superior).

Tessalina
05-05-2006, 20:28
I agree. Restoration focused Ritualists are very useful/powerful but they work in a very different way from monks and are not really direct replacements for monks.

Monks excel in protecting/healing individuals, in this way a Ritualist really can't compete. This means that monks likely are preferable in situations where individuals are being spiked or the group is centered around a single tank absorbing all the damage for the group.

Ritualists, on the other hand, excel as entire group healers. Their heals are focused around providing a steady gentle healing to the entire group, with a selection of spells to provide minor healing/protection to individuals to help compensate for dips in their health compared to the group.

To put it another way, monks are mainly reactive healers while Ritualists are passive healers. Both are effective but are stronger in differing situations. So, you can't approch a Ritualist assuming you are going to get an identical replacement for a monk. You aren't, you are instead going to get a different type of healer.

The other advantage Ritualists have is, with the proper skill selection, they are very difficult to kill compared to a monk. This allows them to maintain their passive, gentle healing uninterrupted while a monk would have to pause and deal with the situation(or have someone else assist them).

Both professions have their place, but they are not direct replacements for each other. Instead, they just approach healing differently.

OmInOuS NeCrOsIs
05-05-2006, 22:04
I'd like to address some comments made:



Recuperation and preservation have no comparisons to any monk spells because they are spirits. I was trying to debate the mechanics of comparable skills.



Who needs a mass mending (that tops out at 3 pips by the way) when a monk can mitigate more damage and maintain positive energy flow by comboing bonding and balths spirit. This generates so much in energy in fact that it's quite easy to still spam RoF.



Mend ailment will remove a condition without stipulation, and on average heal for at least 40+ health due to the number of remaining conditions and divine favor synergy.


I addressed soothing memories in my main post. This comment wasn't a very good refutation of my argument. To refresh your memory: "Soothing memories has only a slightly better heal, but recharges in 5 SECONDS, which in practice disqualifies it from true spam heal catagory. That and it requires you to be holding an item to regain 3 energy. So in order to regain 3 energy in casting Soothing Memories, you only have to sacrifice about 15-17 maximum energy you would be getting from your weapon+focus. The only item that could mitigate that penalty would be Mighty was Vorizun, but that's in the communing line. If you use mighty was Vorizun, you can't use Generous was Tsungrai, which ends up bringing problems of its own." But if you want to play the numbers game well:

Signet of Devotion (availability)
Description: Heal target ally for 14-83 points.
Energy Cost: None.
Activation Time: 2 Seconds.
Recharge Time: 5 Seconds.
Linked Attribute Divine Favor. Increases health recovered.
Skill Type: Signet.

No item holding requirement. Same recharge. It even heals for more at equivalent attribute point settings. Oh and 85 armor does not a tank make. Just ask those assassins with the +15 defense while attacking armor.



This is communning. The topic was restoration mechanics.


The life steal is a not really better than vampiric gaze. Vampiric gaze is also non-conditional. Besides, in every situation RoF would outperform this spell even without divine favor bonus. Doubly so with.



If ritualist (especially class primaries) are supposed to be inferior in all ways to monks at healing support, why bother having a restoration line at all. Seems like even communing is superior at damage mitigation with shelter, union, and shadowsong.



First off, Necromancers have no hex removal. It is the exclusive purview of monks and mesmers (formerly rangers as well). Secondly, professions (and more specifically functions and mechanics of said professions) SHOULD and ARE compared in this manner for balance purposes. Why do you suppose they buffed beastmastery skill damage over and above that of warrior weapon skill damage. To compensate for the pets poor AI in similar functions.



Where in any of my arguments did I say ritualists were meant to replace monks? As for grouping with restoration ritualist, with the poor state of the restoration line, why bother when another monk will outperform in group dynamics.



Assumptions on the way I "look at the ritualist profession" based on my opinions of one attribute line seem trite. If you're going to suggest an insight into my views of the ritualist profession (as opposed to one single attribute line), try to think more holistically.



Again i'd like to mention that nowhere did I say that ritualists were meant to compete with monks. I was under the impression that the restoration line was created in order for a non-monk primary class to provide damage mitigation/heal support in a competant capacity. A way to heal and protect, just differently. As it stands, restoration is frankly not up to snuff. Adding another monk would compliment other monks in a party more than a restoration ritualist.



Herein lies another problem. I'm sure any of you have played mesmer primaries, you'll know what i'm talking about.



I've already discussed the problems with these two but to F.Y.I.:
"Mend body and soul heals for a rather pitiful amount and its secondary effect is not likely to activate because of the ease of spirit death/painfully long spirit recharge times. Soothing memories has only a slightly better heal, but recharges in 5 SECONDS, which in practice disqualifies it from true spam heal catagory. That and it requires you to be holding an item to regain 3 energy. So in order to regain 3 energy in casting Soothing Memories, you only have to sacrifice about 15-17 maximum energy you would be getting from your weapon+focus. The only item that could mitigate that penalty would be Mighty was Vorizun, but that's in the communing line. If you use mighty was Vorizun, you can't use Generous was Tsungrai, which ends up bringing problems of its own."

As for preservation and recuperation. What can I say really. One dragon stomp or a nice triple chop and cyclone axe will have you waiting another 45-60 seconds at least to be useful again. Sadly even lvl 13 bone minions have better durability, and they summon two at a time. But wait, what about ritual lord? Can't recasting these spirits mitigate that problem? Well not really. The issue of durability and number of spirits is still not addressed. In the meantime, you are rendered useless and vunerable for the duration (3 to 5 seconds) of your casting. That's not even factoring in distracting shot, lunge, chop, psychic distraction, or diversion, all of which will serve to negate any real benefit from ritual lord.


Oh, apologies in advance for anyone who is under the impression that the tone of my post is smarmy. Frustration can often seem that way.

#1 Instant heal is not always better.
#2 Restoration tree is not supposed to be compared to monk trees. I'm comparing it with other rit skills.
#3 You guys are overlooking the spirits that heal.
In an 8 v 8 recoup heals for 24 a second considering half your group isn't at full hp at all times. That means in all, it heals for over 900 health.

kumiel
08-05-2006, 00:48
So why not do what I did and just grab a Mo/Rt... They have twice as many heals as anyone else so you have lots of different possibilities to choose from. Also, there are many ways to combo the two together: rit for slow heals, monk for instant heals

Death Dragon
08-05-2006, 02:19
Being a Primary Ritualist (no monk skills) works very well as a healer.

I use a very interesting build with my Ritualist:
16 Communing / 15 Restoration

Spirit of Pain - 21 Damage a hit for 150+ seconds.
BloodSong - 21 Damage a hit (and gained to spirit) for 150+ seconds.
ShadowSong - 21 Damage a hit, and blinds, for 30 seconds.
Recuperation - Gives +3 Regeneration to all near this spirit, lasts for 47 seconds.
Preservation - Heals for 122 health every 4 seconds, lasts 60 seconds.
Mend Body and Soul - Heals for 90 health and removes 1 condition per spirit near me. (normally have 2-3 spirits, so that is a clean slate).
Spirit Light - Gives +162 Health a heal, on any player, for 10 energy (I am always near spirits, so ignore the -10% health).
(resurrection signet) or Flesh of my Flesh - Basic Resurrect.

This build allows me to create a defencive position with 3 spirits doing 21 a hit each, healing for 90 a heal with condition removal or 162 a heal flat out, Heal for 122 every 4 seconds and give +3 regeneration automatically.

Most Casters will flee back because of taking 63 a round, can add up and cause alot of harm quickly. And while that is going on, I am healing efficiently and giving a mass Mending for only 15 energy per 48 seconds of it.



If Restoration needs alot of help, say that to my Ritualist, who MONKS better than most monks.

(on a side note, I may remove Pain + BloodSong + ShadowSong and replace them with:

Union - Level 8 or 9 with 62 seconds duration. Damage reduced on teammates by 15 and it takes 15 damage instead.

Shelter - Loses 28 health whenever spirit prevents damage. Allies cannot lose 10% health or more per hit, 10% is cap and has a 62 second duration.

Displacement - Attacks made by foes are evaded, and this spirit loses 39 health, duration is 62 seconds.


With my first 3 damage spirits, I can cause alot of harm myself. With these other spirits, I can cause a living nightmare for anyone intent on dealing damage.

FoxBat
10-05-2006, 02:17
Conclusion: the good skills in Restoration line basically come down to spirits, and Generous was Tsungrai. The other skills aren't worth bringing vs monk skills unless you are already maxing restoration just for the spirits. This is in general true of the ritualist, their skills look like you could build a mobile one that didn't use spirits, but 99% of the time that is a horrible mistake. You are nothing without some spirits.

Some of the skills that transfer health from spirits to allies are potentially quite powerful... but not in the restoration line, oddly enough.

Geishe
10-05-2006, 03:46
Conclusion: the good skills in Restoration line basically come down to spirits, and Generous was Tsungrai. The other skills aren't worth bringing vs monk skills unless you are already maxing restoration just for the spirits. This is in general true of the ritualist, their skills look like you could build a mobile one that didn't use spirits, but 99% of the time that is a horrible mistake. You are nothing without some spirits.

Some of the skills that transfer health from spirits to allies are potentially quite powerful... but not in the restoration line, oddly enough.

I believe Spawning Power is directly linked with Restoration. And that is the line with Feast of Souls, and other spirit healing spells, no? Look at all the Restoration Items, they require Spawning power instead of Restoration. The End-game Wayward Wand is (req. 9 Spawning power) and its for Rest.

So, I think its not that odd to not have them in Restoration, as Anet seems to intend for that effect.

I must disagree with your saying of Restoration being only useful for Generous was Tsungrai, and the spirits. I find Soothing Memories to be quite capable, and thats spirit independent. The Weapon spells, especially Vengeful and Warding are quite useful. And Blind was Mingson is pretty awesome protection for spirits, when a whammo decides to come close to you and your precious spirits =(.

Hida Ryushi
10-05-2006, 04:50
My Ritualist is primarily a Healer, and I don't find Healing all too difficult provided at least one other person can Heal, too (another Ritualist or a Heal Monk). I use Shadowsong, Recuperation, Life, Vital Weapon, Spirit Light, Spirit Transfer, Flesh of my Flesh and Soul Twisting as my skills. Usually I drop Recuperation and Life first, then I begin to heal those with Spirit Light (141 HP Heal) and Spirit Transfer (201 HP Heal). Usually, if needed, I'll Soul Twist my Life spirit (healing everyone in the process) and then summon Shadowsong much faster than usual. Vital Weapon I throw on a person who seems to be taking the brunt of the enemies' damage.

I also seem very popular in missions. :grin:

Aladar
10-05-2006, 05:12
Didn't read all posts so I don't know if this has been said, but about the comparison of Spirit Light to Jamei's Gaze/Heal Other, you can use Spirit Light to heal YOURSELF for 150~ while Jamei's Gaze/Heal Other can only be used to... well... heal others.

Alexia of Durham
10-05-2006, 10:20
I always found the restoration-ritualist is there to support the monk(s) - not all that far yet: breaker's hollow .I use a "hybrid " build with restoration+ communing and sofar it works well.

Stuff like shelter, union ,recuperation,vital weapon, resilient weapon etc. can really help out the monks on a team . Your restoration doesn't even have to be at 16 ( or your communing ) , I'm using minor runes sofar with a restoration mask .

One thing I want to know though : the "weapons "don't stack - it has been said - but does this mean if one ritualist casts vital on a person and another one casts resilient ,only one of the two will be in effect ?? If so, that would be a big downer and not entirely fair ( if you have two rangers they can stack spirits ) . Having said that : at first I found it to be very frustrating to play with my ritualist ,but as you progress through the game you begin to grasp how skills best complement eachother and it becomes fun.

I find it to be far more interesting than assasin -class ( but this is no surprise as I am also a huge fan of monks and other "caster-classes " : I have two monks , one canthan made , two necros and two rangers ; just goes to show how fond I am of playing ranged classes ! )

FoxBat
10-05-2006, 10:50
I must disagree with your saying of Restoration being only useful for Generous was Tsungrai, and the spirits. I find Soothing Memories to be quite capable, and thats spirit independent. The Weapon spells, especially Vengeful and Warding are quite useful. And Blind was Mingson is pretty awesome protection for spirits, when a whammo decides to come close to you and your precious spirits =(.

I would re-read the earlier part of the thread.... these aren't bad skills, they are just consistently inferior to the monk equivalents at even 12 in the attribute (except for Blind was Mingson, that is indeed awesome in its own right) But if you are already maxing restoration for some spirits, then its probably a better idea to bring the otherwise weaker restoration versions than trying to cram in the monk attribute points.

A ritualist who uses these skills side-by-side with some potent spirits is indeed powerful. But one who fills their bar with *only* these skills is just a weak monk wanabee.

Tenuei
10-05-2006, 19:19
Compared to monks, I am disappointed with most of the ritualist's direct healing spells. They heal for a decent amount even without Divine Favor to fuel them, but most have 1 second cast times and horribly long 4 or 5 second recharge times. It's only in group healing and resurrection that they really excel. Generous was Tsungrai + Flesh of my Flesh, as has been mentioned, is a great combination. Restoration (in the Communing line, oddly enough) and Lively was Naomi are both Light of Dwayna-esque mass resurrection spells, with the added bonus of being able to bring the caster back to life, and with the ability to be readied up to 45 seconds in advance.

Recuperation is also very useful for the fact that it gives +3 regen to all allies, not just party members. Which includes all the green dots you're supposed to protect in PVE, and, perhaps most valuably, all necromancer minions. The Life spirit heals all allies when it dies, allowing you to use Soul Twisting on it to heal everyone within its range (Which is the same as Recuperation) for 50 hp every ~12 seconds. Or 100 hp every ~22 seconds, whichever is more useful.

Aladar
10-05-2006, 19:29
Compared to monks, I am disappointed with most of the ritualist's direct healing spells. They heal for a decent amount even without Divine Favor to fuel them, but most have 1 second cast times and horribly long 4 or 5 second recharge times.

One second cast times and a horrible long 4 or 5 second recharge? Orison of Healing has a 1 second cast time and 4 second recharge, therefore it is horrible? AFAIK it's the most-used healing spell in the game, but not that good on its own without Divine Favor added to it. Its Rt counterpart, Mend Body and Soul, has a faster cast time, heals for conditions if you're near a spirit, and a second faster recharge while healing for more. If Divine Favor worked on spells other than Monk spells, it'd be the most used heal in the game I think.

Also, other direct-heals in the Monk side have drawbacks, too. Healing Touch is a touch spell and has a 5-second recharge. It only heals for 60 at 16 Healing Prayers, but the double Divine Favor is what makes it worthwhile. Heal Other/Jamei's Gaze can only be used on other allies. Dwayna's Kiss heals for 60, but of course adds more healing for hexes or enchantments on the target OTHER ally.

In short, it's not the spells themselves that are worse, it's that Divine Favor doesn't come into play, so all of them are debuffed. But Monks don't get spirits, either, which I believe evens the playing (or healing) field.

Hida Ryushi
10-05-2006, 20:18
Spirit Light takes about 4 seconds to recharge. Spirit Transfer takes about 10 seconds. Mend Body And Soul is the fastest one (and multi-purpose Condition remover, too), and Wielder's Boon is also a quick one, too.

lavenbb
11-05-2006, 07:10
One second cast times and a horrible long 4 or 5 second recharge? Orison of Healing has a 1 second cast time and 4 second recharge, therefore it is horrible? AFAIK it's the most-used healing spell in the game, but not that good on its own without Divine Favor added to it. Its Rt counterpart, Mend Body and Soul, has a faster cast time, heals for conditions if you're near a spirit, and a second faster recharge while healing for more. If Divine Favor worked on spells other than Monk spells, it'd be the most used heal in the game I think.

Also, other direct-heals in the Monk side have drawbacks, too. Healing Touch is a touch spell and has a 5-second recharge. It only heals for 60 at 16 Healing Prayers, but the double Divine Favor is what makes it worthwhile. Heal Other/Jamei's Gaze can only be used on other allies. Dwayna's Kiss heals for 60, but of course adds more healing for hexes or enchantments on the target OTHER ally.

In short, it's not the spells themselves that are worse, it's that Divine Favor doesn't come into play, so all of them are debuffed. But Monks don't get spirits, either, which I believe evens the playing (or healing) field.


Orison has 2 second recharge, the spammability is what makes it the most used heal spell, if you want to compare mend body and soul, dwayna's kiss has 3 sec recharge, and heals for more depending on how hexed or enchanted the target is (no upper limit as to how much it can heal for)

Purifier
11-05-2006, 18:14
Dwayna's kiss is also a touch skill mend body and soul is ranged.

Shrimp
11-05-2006, 20:09
I believe Spawning Power is directly linked with Restoration. And that is the line with Feast of Souls, and other spirit healing spells, no? Look at all the Restoration Items, they require Spawning power instead of Restoration. The End-game Wayward Wand is (req. 9 Spawning power) and its for Rest.
=(.

Much the same as Kepkhet's Refuge requires Divine Favor? It's a protection monk's weapon, but we all know that prot monks are more about high DF than anything, and Anet agreed. Maybe this is a case of Anet recognizing ahead of time that classes aren't defined by one attribute, or one small group of skills.

The question you need to ask is this: can ritualists who focus on restoration abilities effectively do their job? If the answer is yes then don't complain just because monks do it better. If the answer is no, then I'd be willing to bet that you're missing something along the line. Factions has been out for less than a month.

Falrow
11-05-2006, 22:10
Dwayna's kiss is also a touch skill mend body and soul is ranged.

LIES PURE LIES!

Kiss has normal spell range, your thinking healing touch.

Adine Kara
12-05-2006, 01:21
Im surprized Life has only been mentioned once in this topic.Given it must die to take effect making it a prolonged battle skill but it is quite effective working not only on your party but allies too including minions. At 14(atributes) it heals for 120 which isent too shaby if you ask me.Can a ritualist match a monks healing, hardly but they can certianly make their job easier.

Geishe
12-05-2006, 04:08
Much the same as Kepkhet's Refuge requires Divine Favor? It's a protection monk's weapon, but we all know that prot monks are more about high DF than anything, and Anet agreed. Maybe this is a case of Anet recognizing ahead of time that classes aren't defined by one attribute, or one small group of skills.

The question you need to ask is this: can ritualists who focus on restoration abilities effectively do their job? If the answer is yes then don't complain just because monks do it better. If the answer is no, then I'd be willing to bet that you're missing something along the line. Factions has been out for less than a month.

I'm actually confused on what you're trying to explain to me. Are you trying to tell me that I am complaining that I think its unfair that Restoration power has weapons with Spawning power reqs? and that Monks have that too, not just Ritualists? If it is, than yes I realize that, I was just using this post to reply that a bunch of handy healing spells are also located in Spawning Power... which in turn has great synergy with Restoration skills.

If Im totally reading this wrong, please do clear it up.... I'm rather slow in the head.

Valkyries
12-05-2006, 17:09
I really don't understand why some of you think that restoration isn't good! Seriously, are you kidding me? Maybe you are using the right build. I see builds here with offensive spells in a healing rit which to me doesn't make a lot of sense.

I have a build where I can heal just as good if not BETTER than "SOME" monks. Yes, I said better, that wasn't a typo.

Honestly, I have at least 2 or 3 spells that are fast and can allow me to heal for 250 health + and are very spammable. (plus a few little trick combos that most haven't figured out yet. Unfortunately I can't take credit for it but I will say its simply amazing the amount you can heal in a few short seconds). Not to mention Mend Body and Soul is just awesome. Spirit Transfer is great, Recupation is a mending for everyone and Preservation can net you 1800 health during that 60 second span (with high enough resto points). Plus their Res is better IMO, Generous was Tsungrai is just awesome, and they have some nice weapon skills too.

Honestly I think you guys are really missing something here.... no they are not healer Monks but they are pretty damn good....

lackadaisical
12-05-2006, 17:29
I've been lurking in these forums since about june last year, but I would like to point out that..

Restoration Rits are fantastic as monk backup in PvE! In the later factions missions as a monk myself, I have asked Rits to go restoration if I am the only monk and off we go - with no major problems. They compliment boon prot or boon heal monks well (which I go most of the time in PvE)

As for their build, I noticed most take: Spirit Light, Mend body and soul, Recuperation, Weapon of Warding, Shelter, some take Union as well.

Of course, this is as far as PvE goes, I have no experience in PvP with restoration rits. I personally don't think they are better than monks - if I had to chose either a monk or a ritualist to heal 8 people i would stick with the monk.... but of course I have more experience monking than restoring :)

But can't find a second monk? Take a Ritualist!

Xeres
12-05-2006, 17:50
I have a Monk and really enjoy healing. Needless to say, I looked forward to the new ritualist class. I have finished the main storyline in factions and have been working on various builds.

I must say that I really enjoy playing a Healing/Restoration Ritualist even over my healing monk. I honestly never thougt I woud say that, but it is true nonetheless.

The main reason why I like a healing Rit is that energy management is better. I usually run 12 healing, 12 restoration, and 9 spawning. With the Reatoration headpiece and only minor runes...I can spam Heaing skills with no loss of energy. If energy becomes a concern, I hit Spirit Channeling and get a massive energy boost. Sure heal Party only heals for 67, but I can do it forever. I can also mix monk and Rit healing and condition removers.

I am really enjoying the Ritualist. I would agree that this does not replace the need for a monk or two. It is fun, however, to take some pressure off the monks and to assist them in healing.

The only problem I have is that people can not seem to get over their little cookie cutter builds and thus, have trouble getting into PuG's sometimes. I also don't like the way the Ritualist is looked as "healer light". A good Ritualist can be very effective with the right group.

Cant find a Ritualist? Then take a monk! :laugh:

Aladar
12-05-2006, 18:59
Even though Tahnnaki Temple is easily one of the easiest missions in the game, it's still somewhat difficult to do without a decent healer. Most people shout LFG Monk in the staging area, but when I made a group to help my Necro friend out, I specifically asked for another Restoration Ritualist. We made it through the mission with only one person--an Assassin--dying. The other 9 members of our group (Togo and Mhenlo included) never dropped below half health.

It's true that Ritualists may not beat monks in direct healing spells, but their binding rituals MORE than even the playing field. If it was only direct heals we were measuring, then it wouldn't be a comparison. But if you add a Preservation, Life, Recuperation, or Restoration (I know it's a Communing attribute...), then you are basically adding another healer or two or five on the playing field.