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desolo
05-05-2006, 02:53
Let's say the skill set is spirits: union, shelter, shadowsong, etc for PvE. Would it be better to max out Communing or Spawning power? Communing gives higher spirit level, longer lasting times, etc. Spawning, on the other hand, gives more hp, which would lend to the durability as more life can be sacced.

Erasculio
05-05-2006, 03:05
Depends. Some spirits live longer than any battle would last (Bloodsong, I'm looking at you) with Communing, but then again increasing Communing would make them do more damage...In other hand, for those spirits which sacrifice health, Spawing would likely make them last longer.

I say it depends of what kind of spirit you use, and what kind of party are you in. If I were using Pain, Shadowsong and Bloodsong in a party with two Minion Masters, I would definitely max Communing; if I were using Union and Shelter in a party filled with Air Eles, I would certainly max Spawing.

Probably the best overall approach is to have both at high levels, like both on 14 or something like that.

Erasculio

desolo
05-05-2006, 03:22
Let's see...so say as a full support running:

Attuned was Songkai/Ritual Lord/Spirit Transfer {Elites}
Union
Shelter
Soothing/Boon of Creation
Shadow Song
Draw Spirit
Serpent's Quickness
Flesh of my Flesh

That would probably be best with something like 14/15 Communing and 15/16 Spawning Power.

Aside from that, here's what I'm running right now after just having finished Vizunah Square:

14 Communing (11 + 2 +1)
12 Restoration (10 + 2)
11 Spawning (10 + 1)

Weapon of Quickening {Elite}
Shadow Song
Recuperation
Shelter
Union
Life
Draw Spirit
Flesh of my Flesh

I lost my train of thought, so uhh, any comments/feedback is helpful on either build.

lion of tawheed
06-05-2006, 02:22
Some of you GW people drive me CRAZY with ur build thought process..
WHy do u try to pack every attribute into 1 build????
Dont u realize its better to buy 2 sets of helms with a sup rune for Comm/Chann on each one and then switch out to maximize 1 attribute rather than half-@$$ 2?
16comm 13 spawn.. Specialize in something.. Dont try to be a Super ritualist.. its gonna lack effciency.. same with any caster class in GW..
for melee classes and ranger i understand going 16/11/9 .. but for a caster just carry 2 sets of helms with sup runes on them and switch out.. have a Communing build, a Channeling Build, and a Resotration build.. dont try to pack every attribute into 1 ur just gonna end up with a very inefficient character.. For everyone attribute u try to half-@$$ you could maximize another. there is no ALL COMPREHENSIVE BUILD for any class.. u simply must pick 1 attribute to maxmize and carry some other sets of gear/runes if u want to try other forms.. a ritualist that tries to be the COmmuning/Spawning/Resotration/Channeling sooper hero is just gonna end up playing like a clown.. same goes for every other class accept ranger/assassin/warrior.. and same goes with trying to pump ur second profession rather than maxmize some attributes of ur first profession..
ok end of rant... sigh

Deciett
06-05-2006, 02:55
14/12/11 is the best IMHO. The balance of duration and hitpoints is unquestionable, simply swap to 12/11/14 if you go with a fragile group of eles or the like.

succumb
06-05-2006, 03:25
Ultimate in overpowerd damage mitigation

RT/whatever

16 spawning power 12+3+1
15 communing 12+3
4 restoration

sup vigor + 30hp 1 hander + 30 hp offhand + hp armor = 475hp

Union
Shelter
Displacement
Recuperation or life
signet of creation
boon of creation
ritual lord(E)
res

protection monk doenst even come close. Ritualist healers are gimped. Ritualist nukers are gimped. Offensive spirit ritualists are gimped. Dmg mitigation is the only thing ritualists have going for them in there current state.

Phoebus
06-05-2006, 03:39
~70-80 armor ignoring DPS is not gimped. (Offensive spirit ritualists)

succumb
06-05-2006, 03:52
~70-80 armor ignoring DPS is not gimped. (Offensive spirit ritualists)

Mabey if spirits attacked once a second which they are not even close to they wouldnt be gimped and you'd be correct but there closer to 2 seconds between attacks. You also have no control whatsoever over how and were the dmg is distributed. Making offensive spirit ritualist even more usless in pvp. Your spirits are gona be randomly takin shots at warriors since you cant get em in the enemy backline. Mabey with some fancy shadow steping/draw spirit tactics but still.

Phoebus
06-05-2006, 05:49
Spirits attack every two second, and do 20 damage per hit at L15.
Painful Bond adds 20 damage per hit at L15.
40 damage every 2 seconds = 20 dps per spirit
4 spirits = 70-80 dps

Wether spirits attack warriors or the enemy monk doesn't matter, it's armor ignoring pressure damage that will waste the energy and divert the attention of the enemy monks.

succumb
06-05-2006, 06:18
oh i see your rellying on all the spirits to magically hone in the mob/player that happens to have painful bond on them. I see well mabey if that hex was cheap and spammable which unfortuanetly it is very far from. 15 energy and 20 second recharge. You could keep that on one mob/person at a time barring echoing. So we gata have 4 spirits summoned all in range of the enemy. All spirits have to decided to attack the same target, which of course has to be the one with painful bond. Finally you gata hope ur hex doenst get removed. Boy your right that is awesome! nerf!

Longasc
06-05-2006, 09:57
Relax, succumb. :)

But you are right:


protection monk doenst even come close. Ritualist healers are gimped. Ritualist nukers are gimped. Offensive spirit ritualists are gimped. Dmg mitigation is the only thing ritualists have going for them in there current state.

Though I would not give up on the versatility of this class. Channeling does not rival an Elementalist, right.

But Bloodsong and other Spirits plus the spells of the Channeling line can add noticeable damage while you are still good at keeping up your Union/Shelter whatsoever spirits.


I do not think Ritualists are any good for PvP, but cannot say I tested it so far.

Phoebus
06-05-2006, 13:09
oh i see your rellying on all the spirits to magically hone in the mob/player that happens to have painful bond on them. I see well mabey if that hex was cheap and spammable which unfortuanetly it is very far from. 15 energy and 20 second recharge. You could keep that on one mob/person at a time barring echoing. So we gata have 4 spirits summoned all in range of the enemy. All spirits have to decided to attack the same target, which of course has to be the one with painful bond. Finally you gata hope ur hex doenst get removed. Boy your right that is awesome! nerf!
Omg, warriors can be snared, blinded through condition & hexes, there's evasion/blocking stances, there's wards against melee/foes, empathy/SS and more! Warriors are totally useless and pointless!!!!11
</heavy sarcasm>

Erasculio
06-05-2006, 14:10
All spirits have to decided to attack the same target, which of course has to be the one with painful bond. Finally you gata hope ur hex doenst get removed. Boy your right that is awesome! nerf!
Succumb, I see you are new here. We like to have discussions between people (that's the entire point of this place), but sarcasm and the offensive behavior you have displayed above is beyond what we accept here. Feel free to bad mouth the Ritualist Profession as much as you want, as long as you don't attack the Ritualist players.

Erasculio

neoflame
06-05-2006, 17:14
Omg, warriors can be snared, blinded through condition & hexes, there's evasion/blocking stances, there's wards against melee/foes, empathy/SS and more! Warriors are totally useless and pointless!!!!11
</heavy sarcasm>
The difference is that while you can control the skill level of your teams' warriors (i.e. kick them if they suck), you can't control your spirits. In this they are like pets - potentially powerful, but weak because they're dumb as bricks.

Phoebus
06-05-2006, 18:52
The difference is that while you can control the skill level of your teams' warriors (i.e. kick them if they suck), you can't control your spirits. In this they are like pets - potentially powerful, but weak because they're dumb as bricks.
And the difference is Spirits do more DPS than warriors, they blind, interrupt, they ignore armor, they are ranged, they are immune to conditions and hexes.

Just for reference, if it was possible to have more than one spirit of the same type in a team, 8 ritualists spawning 4 spirits each would result into 640 damage every 2 seconds before painful bond. Plus up to 8 target blinded for 5 seconds every 2 seconds, plus 8 random interrupts every 2 seconds.

Sure, offensive spirits have their flaws and aren't overpowered, but they sure are not gimped.

Starfury
06-05-2006, 21:02
Offensive spirits are a nice source of damage, but they have flaws that annoy me incredibly in pve.

1. They take a long time to setup.
2. They fire at random targets, which doesnt go well with painful bond.
3. They're immobile and have long recharge timers.
4. They're not very hard to kill, though rupture soul is nice against those trying to kill it. ;)

That said, pain, bloodsong, and shadowsong are nice spirits to complement a union/shelter communing build with ritual lord and boon of creation.

neoflame
06-05-2006, 21:16
Just for reference, if it was possible to have more than one spirit of the same type in a team, 8 ritualists spawning 4 spirits each would result into 640 damage every 2 seconds before painful bond.
Just for reference, if players had an infinite amount of adrenaline, 8 warriors could Frenzy/Eviscerate for around 800 total damage every second. Seriously, "if this game rule didn't exist"?

Phoebus
06-05-2006, 22:53
Just for reference, if players had an infinite amount of adrenaline, 8 warriors could Frenzy/Eviscerate for around 800 total damage every second. Seriously, "if this game rule didn't exist"?
Can a single warrior have infinite adrenaline?
Strawman argument.

What I'm arguing is the power of a single ritualist on a team scale, so that someone like you could objectively understand that offensive spirits are worth their weight, they work on a smaller scale, one offensive spiritualist per team, but still at the same efficiency.

Death Dragon
06-05-2006, 23:03
Offensive spirits are a nice source of damage, but they have flaws that annoy me incredibly in pve.

1. They take a long time to setup.
2. They fire at random targets, which doesnt go well with painful bond.
3. They're immobile and have long recharge timers.
4. They're not very hard to kill, though rupture soul is nice against those trying to kill it. ;)

That said, pain, bloodsong, and shadowsong are nice spirits to complement a union/shelter communing build with ritual lord and boon of creation.

Better way to go about it:
1. They take a long time to set up.
OK, They do, but then again, they provide ALOT of help in alot of situations.
2. They fire at random targets, which doesn't go well with painful bond.
Now, they will fire at targets you specify if they have not selected their own targets yet. Painful Bond said target after its selected by your spirits.
3. They're immobile and have long recharge timers.
Draw Spirit comes to mind here, allowing you to move spirits. Also, Soul Twisting or Spirit Lord comes handy with recharge problems.
4. They're not very hard to kill, though rupture soul is nice against those trying to kill it. ;)
True about Rupture Soul, but the true way to make the spirits last, is to be ranger secondary, and set up a Healing Spring in your spirit cluster. Or near the spirits that lose life when their affect triggers. Or Monk Secondary and have some in healing for Heal Area.

Phoebus
06-05-2006, 23:46
4. They're not very hard to kill, though rupture soul is nice against those trying to kill it. ;)
True about Rupture Soul, but the true way to make the spirits last, is to be ranger secondary, and set up a Healing Spring in your spirit cluster. Or near the spirits that lose life when their affect triggers. Or Monk Secondary and have some in healing for Heal Area.
I beleive spirits are completely immune to healing, the only way they can be 'healed' is through skills that make them 'gain' health.