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Servant of Kali
15-05-2006, 19:39
4v4 battle. Situation: warrior the nearest target. Monk far back. Spirit(s) before that (Pain Bloodsong) seemed to be hitting monk. Then i place down Shadowsong. It keeps hitting monk. I keep wanding the warrior, spirit(s) dunnot change target. Obviously, they dont target the closest foe either because monk was all d time behind, and warrior nearest to me.


This means exactly it - spirits AI is far far worse than pets. I mean, pets will at least follow your calls with abit of delay, but that's it. Spirits have totally random AI, which is based on some to me unknown game sequence.

Shadowsong seemed like a nice skill, but in practice it proved... useless. Sure it's good when warrior is charging up and is the only target in sight of the spirit, but this is totally situational, and in many cases wont happen. Not to mention, if your enemy knows this, they can just position themselves on the battlefield so that spirits target someone useless while warrior/ranger/assassin is rampaging.


Really, really disappointing. While i can even accept randomness of Pain or Bloodsong, random AI of shadowsong just makes me cry. Also, the range of some spirits is much much less than i thought..

Erasculio
15-05-2006, 20:38
Spirits have totally random AI, which is based on some to me unknown game sequence
Actually, that's not true.

(In other news, that was a somewhat bad test, wasn't it? One observation isn't exactly what I would call enough to say something is or isn't random. Not to mention the fact the second spirit was attacking the same target of the first one hints at something which isn't random.)

If you call a target just after you have finished summoning a spirit, it will then proceed to attack that target. I haven't figured out how to make them change targets, but it's very easy to make them aim at a specific one.

Erasculio

Feynt
15-05-2006, 20:58
Agreed, you need to do much more testing than just one fight. That's like asking a person if they like assassins, and then claiming everyone or no one likes them from that result.

Servant of Kali
16-05-2006, 02:44
Agreed, you need to do much more testing than just one fight

Really? And how much did YOU test it?

I have been playing Ritualist for several days, several hours each day. How much more do you want me to test it? When i need to cast Painful Bond, i need to check whom they are hitting. So yes i needed to be very observant.
------


Actually, that's not true.

Really? Have you tested it?


One observation isn't exactly what I would call enough to say something is or isn't random.

Im not saying they hit RANDOMLY. There is algorithm, but i dont know how it behaves.

Besides, i said this was a TEST. You say one observation isnt enough, well as for observations, i've been doing em for days already. And you? How much did you do em?


Not to mention the fact the second spirit was attacking the same target of the first one hints at something which isn't random.)

Wow, i would never thought of that. Hm let's see what i typed above: "Spirits have totally random AI, which is based on some to me unknown game sequence."

Yes that means there is a sequence. Yes that means it's random, because i cant predict whom they will hit. Yet. Considering that shadowsong does not hit the target it's supposed to hit, but shoots whomever, i call that RANDOM. What else isnt clear? If im a ranger with a pet, and my pet just runs around biting enemies, while i want him to stick to target A... i call that RANDOM, regardless of whether pet uses some algorithm or not. It's random when i cant control it.

Lemme quote: "something is apparently random if its cause cannot be determined or controlled."

I mean, here i am debating on randomness geez. Just FYI from what i know, there are very few things in the world which are entirely random. The rest is just not easily predictable, but has a set sequence.


If you call a target just after you have finished summoning a spirit, it will then proceed to attack that target. I haven't figured out how to make them change targets, but it's very easy to make them aim at a specific one.

Great, i need to try that. I also need to try how to coordinate with my team if im gonna call targets for myself all the time. People in RA dont really use Vent. Rarely in TA as well. I mean what, 3 of em will call their own target, and every 5 sec im gonna call mine for the spirits? Spirit of Disenchanting <call target!> ...Shadowsong <call target!> .... yawn. Also, what if i cast Shadowsong before enemy comes in range? What, best to just wait till everyone rushes on me, and then i place 3-4-5 spirits instantly?

And as for changing targets, i dont think you can.

Divinity Archer
16-05-2006, 07:16
I never really had the promblems you have...

Maybe it's all a trick of ANet to prevent spirit camping ;)

Zii The Mad
16-05-2006, 09:08
I have to agree with Kali.
I avoid spirits that actively targets something, since Dissonance will target the warrior and Shadowsong will target the monk - in a not so unlikely scenario.
So passive effects FTW...

Feynt
16-05-2006, 09:22
I agree with Zii's reasoning. However I've never had any problems with spirits. They tend to go for the best target in their radius of attack, so you have to place them strategically rather than dumping them behind your tanks and hoping for the best. Pain here, Shadowsong there, Dissonance off to that side where their casters are closer than their tanks... It's not rocket science, it's TF engineering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Fortress).

BobbyEwing
16-05-2006, 11:18
Just to clear up the semantics: Just because you, or anyone else, is not able to predict something doesn't mean it is per definition random. For thousands of years we couldn't predict basic physics, like which way will a rock bounce if you drop it. This doesn't at all mean it is random, only that we where to inept to understand the mechanics behind it. I especially like: "Spirits have totally random AI, which is based on some to me unknown game sequence.".. thats really a contradictory sentence, if it's random, it's not based on some kind of sequence.

Servant of Kali
16-05-2006, 11:28
Zli:

since Dissonance will target the warrior and Shadowsong will target the monk - in a not so unlikely scenario.

But this is exactly what happens lol! Which is why i never take Dissonance anymore. I rather take Disenchantment because there's higher chance people will have enchant.. even those mending warriors in RA, or who know.
====

Feynt:

However I've never had any problems with spirits. They tend to go for the best target in their radius of attack

No they dont lol :) How much did u play with em and in what arenas?

Situation one: Obelisk 4v4 map. I place spirits just abit further from obelisk, and one enemy goes upstairs, very near spirits, BUT it's behind the cliff if u know what i mean. Spirits SHOOT at that enemy, (but cant hit!!) rather than hitting someone whom they can actually hit. Yes i had that situation too.

Situation two: bonder monk with balth aura and essence bond (in RA) can just run up to my spirits, and have a feast. He will get insane amount of energy when my spirits keep hitting him, and unless i have Disenchantment, im toasted.

Situation three: A W/Mo (geez! even he!) charges on my spirits, which start to hit him. As soon as they select him as a target, the rest of his team runs up and starts smacking my team. Spirits CANT kill WMo unless i remove his enchants with Disenchantment. Healing hands just ownz spirits. And even with Disenchantment, a stance tanks (which i see plenty in RA) will.... give me the same headache.

Aside of boon prot monk casting spamming guardian (and most monks in 4v4 are boon prots, especially in TA).. spirit attacks are just so.....inefficient. Having 50% decreased efficiency is not what i like, i'd rather my spirits switch on someone else for greater effect. It's like ele hitting prot spirited target all the time. And it's not very practical that on a non-TS/Vent team i go shouting "oh my spirits are targetting this guy, u go make pressure on someone else" :)


Dissonance off to that side where their casters

It just doesnt work they way you described with any team with avg IQ, or higher. As soon as Dissonance once hits a caster, he will move away. It's not like i didnt try it, monk would just keep running away from it as soon as he saw me start casting it. When enemy Dissonance would hit me, i'd just move back abit.. no big deal, or take cover behind obstacle. It changes target and then i do whatever i want. I have seen others use Dissonance but it never gave me any problems. And im Rt with slow-casting skills. I doubt warriors in my team had a problem with it. Dissonance costs 25e, dies quickly, and is so situational that i just dont see where and when is it worth it. Maybe with Glint in pve? In pvp, i have no idea, at least not in 4v4.

You have to understand that 4v4 battles are more crowded than you think, and i cant place my spirits just so that it is in range of 1 enemy caster (or warrior) but no one else. Nope, usually i need to spread em or put em in between because enemy team will shift abit back and forth, and i need to cover the battlefield. Im not really a noob, i learned how to position myself on the battlefield with a mesmer where ur often even #1 target... now with Rt i use it, i know how to mask myself often and not get attractive to others, so i can in peace place spirits. Doesnt work often but hey. In any case, im not just sitting behind everyone spamming spirits n hoping caster will pop up. I move up. For instance, before battle, i place 2 spirits next to each other, then 3rd one in front of em (forming a triangle), and that 3rd one can reach enemy. etc.. Im trying to be resourceful, that's why i created few threads in this forum, so that i can get feedback. Ok Erasculio said spirits might hit target if i call it as soon as i put it down. That might not be always practical, but if it works cool i'll try it. It has limited effect but every bit can help.


Again, im not expecting spirits will spike people when someone on Vent counts down 3-2-1... but they could at least act abit more intelligently.

Servant of Kali
16-05-2006, 11:44
BobbyEwing

Just to clear up the semantics: Just because you, or anyone else, is not able to predict something doesn't mean it is per definition random.

You're so smart, how come u couldnt even read whole thread then? Half of my 2nd post discussed randomness, but you're royal highness couldnt bother to read it.

Random in most cases means unpredictable. Which part you dont understand here? I mentioned sequence because i KNOW that spirits dont have their own mind you know, AI control em. But it's random, because:
1. Unpredictable
2. Assorted; undistinguished
3. (pejorative) Frivolous; unproductive; undirected
4. Incoherent or inelegant; poorly chosen; not well organised
5. In no particular order, though deterministic
6. Arbitrary
7. Gratuitously wrong, i.e. poorly done and for no good
apparent reason
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=random

Geez. Gimme a break.

When you throw a dice, are you gonna say "wow you were lucky" "wow that was a random outcome" or you're gonna say 'ok look guys ur all stupid because u think this is luck, but im smart so i know that dice didnt show 5 randomly - but - the way dice turned out was determined by physical factors such as the angle dice hit the surface, the smoothness of surface itself aka friction, then the force with which it was thrown, as well as possible wall nearby which caused it to roll in abit different manner... also the wind if any which could have shifted die abit left or right or whatever, then the weight of a dice, a possible psychic interference by one of the people present there, influencing the astrat plane and tending to materialize.......'

Well, i think you get the point.


So, we can debate the semantics as long as you want, but the speech i use here is something that is supposed to be constructive and helpful, and evident. Which means it's supposed to make the issue clear and understanding as much as possible. But if you want i can use very precise terminology. After all, as a law student im taught to express with surgeon-like precision. But that tends to be tedious to most people. However if u want, we can start talking the way it will resemble this joke :) :


The professor of a contract law class asked one of his better students, "If you were to give someone an orange, how would you go about it?"
The student replied, "Here's an orange."
The professor was outraged. "No! No! Think like a lawyer!"
The student then replied, "Okay. I'd tell him 'I hereby give and convey to you all and singular, my estate and interests, rights, claim, title, claim and advantages of and in, said orange, together with all its rind, juice, pulp, and seeds, and all rights and advantages with full power to bite, cut, freeze and otherwise eat, the same, or give the same away with and without the pulp, juice, rind and seeds, anything herein before or hereinafter or in any deed, or deeds, instruments of whatever nature or kind whatsoever to the contrary in anywise notwithstanding...'"

:P

BobbyEwing
16-05-2006, 12:22
I did read and even quote part of your second post. You clearly state that "Yes that means it's random, because i cant predict whom they will hit.". Am I to understand that your definition of something random is anything that you can't predict with certainty? My point was just that I find it weird if something is both random and based on a sequence at the same time. Something may appear random to you, but that is just because you lack the knowledge or computing capacity to comprehend the chain of events leading to the outcome. Does this make the occurance random?

That depends if we define random as an absolute attribute of an occurance or as a percived attribute by the observer. If we choose to define it as the latter meaning then this implies that randomness is not connected to the occurance, but is in fact an attribute of the observer, and thus, nothing can be defiend as random unless someone is observing the event, and lacks the capacity to understand it.

This in turn leads to interesting questions: If I roll a dice without observing the results, is the outcome random? No, since no one observes, no one fails to note the impredictability. If I show something absolutely trivial to a small child, like tieing my shoelaces, is this outcome random? Yes, since the child does not have the knowledge and computing power to predict that the intricate finger action will result in a nice knot.

An of cource, I'm just yanking your chain a bit ;) It is an interesting topic though, maybe there should be a philosophy section of the forum :)

Servant of Kali
16-05-2006, 12:57
Am I to understand that your definition of something random is anything that you can't predict with certainty?

I dont know anyone who can predict it, nor have so far come upon anyone in this forum who managed to predict it. So yes, 'random' is pretty subjective, and it's like that in science as well. Something is 'random' until they manage to figger out the sequence :)


My point was just that I find it weird if something is both random and based on a sequence at the same time.

Yes but i explained it :) A dice is random. And it has a 'sequence'.


Something may appear random to you, but that is just because you lack the knowledge or computing capacity to comprehend the chain of events leading to the outcome. Does this make the occurance random?

Yes it makes the occurance random using most definitions of random.

Do you ever use word 'luck' or 'chance'? Now, in my dictionary there are no such words. A chance is a name for law not recognized. But in ordinary speech luck has its meaning, and it's just fine :)


That depends if we define random as an absolute attribute of an occurance or as a percived attribute by the observer.

Alot of things are simply based on the perception of the observer. When majority agrees on something it becomes a 'standard'. What you see is based on your eyes, which btw may differ with other species (ie fly, or bee etc). When you say you hear nothing, someone else (ie whale) could differ. When you say you dont smell nothing, a wolf might differ. When you say you dont see anything, a falcon may differ. When you say there is no god, a saint may differ. Some things are just based on a perception. Not much one can do about it. Words and language are mostly used to improve the communication, and semantics are based on a standard, most often. Some words like 'love' will mean different things even to the same people. I use whatever words i can find to better describe an issue. If i could find a better and more simple word i'd use it.


If I roll a dice without observing the results, is the outcome random? No, since no one observes,

It makes no sense. Dice is NEVER random. It always obeys the physical laws. Very exact ones. The spectators will call it random or luck, because they cannot determine the outcome. I dont know why complicate this.

Yes, from an absolute point of view, more or less nothing is 'random'. Everything happens according to a law. Whichever law it is. From the subjective point of view, things can be random.


If I show something absolutely trivial to a small child, like tieing my shoelaces, is this outcome random? Yes, since the child does not have the knowledge and computing power to predict that the intricate finger action will result in a nice knot.

That's exactly it in a way. It will make no sense to the child, since you will do some weird action with your fingers. After few times child will figger it out, see the pattern. For you, every move is precise and not even abit random.


An of cource, I'm just yanking your chain a bit ;)

That's all ok, but i'd rather discuss how to increase the probability of spirit hitting the desired target :) Or how to figger out on whom to cast painful bond.

Erasculio
17-05-2006, 00:22
BobbyEwing


You're so smart, how come u couldnt even read whole thread then? Half of my 2nd post discussed randomness, but you're royal highness couldnt bother to read it.
Kali,

If you wish to express your "findings", no matter how wrong I personally think they are, you are free to do so.

If you think you can insult another user here like this, in other hand, you are definitely wrong.

Do not do this again.

Erasculio

Longasc
17-05-2006, 05:57
There is something wrong when Shadowsong attacks Monks.

It should have a higher priority on classes using weapons, like Warriors, Rangers, Assassins. It should also not focus but cast on as many different targets of this type as possible.

If there is no real way to switch targets or control targeting behaviour.


Blinding Elementalists, Monks and other kinds of casters makes the spirit almost useless.

Mikhail
17-05-2006, 07:27
there is a serious issue with the spirit attack ai. 1/3 of the time in pvp, the spirits will just be on standby for several seconds and not attack a nearby target...then eventually they'll start attacking again.

same iwth the flesh golem ai, a little buggy.

but i agree randomness does suck. But if the spirit ai actually were smart in choosing its target, rit would seriously need this nerf...too overpowered

Feynt
17-05-2006, 07:44
The standby period is for you to call an victim I believe. Otherwise they pick out what they believe is the best thing to attack, or the first (or only) target to enter their range.

Servant of Kali
17-05-2006, 09:13
The standby period is for you to call an victim I believe.

The problem with calling target for each spirit is that it makes team-based-calls useless, since ur making spirits pretty much often. When you dont have TS you need to use CTRLSpace. When the target spirits need to hit isnt the same as team target, it gets messy.

I guess there isnt much of a solution to this, but i'd prefer that at least Shadowsong and Disenchantment hit someone properly, unless i specifically call target after i create em.

Jeppe
17-05-2006, 12:51
Shadowsong always attacked the warrior(s)/ranger(s)/assassin(s) when i progressed through PvE (No tests in PvP).
Dissonance attacked a "perfect" target, which had something to interrupt.

Ofcourse if theres only one enemy left, theyre left with small choice.

Servant of Kali
17-05-2006, 16:13
Disonance is easy to dodge in pvp. Let's say u get hit with it as Rt. U do few steps back and then rush in again. You will not get targetted anymore.

Selene Raseth
17-05-2006, 16:33
Just jumping to the end because listening to people yell at each other is boring as hell, but maybe after the first target is out of range/dead, then the spirits switch target to whoever would be most affected. Was the monk wanding at the time shadowsong switched to them? Was the fighter using a sig of healing, or some attack skill which could be interrupted? These would be the kind of things that should be checked for when testing to see where the spirits will switch to.

Servant of Kali
17-05-2006, 18:51
These would be the kind of things that should be checked for when testing to see where the spirits will switch to.

wow yea i just have whole day to make these tests... was the monk drinking coke when spirit hit him, did the warrior have shaved beard... right.


but maybe after the first target is out of range/dead, then the spirits switch target to whoever would be most affected

If the first target is dead you just have to be lucky shadowsong is gonna start hitting proper target. If ur not.. well..
Hitting the most affected target is not the best thing to do in all occasions as said before now, which is why i said spirit AI is somewhat flawed. It's abit better when using CTRL+space just after creating spirit... it's limited, but every bit helps.

Feynt
17-05-2006, 19:43
The problem with calling target for each spirit is that it makes team-based-calls useless, since ur making spirits pretty much often. When you dont have TS you need to use CTRLSpace. When the target spirits need to hit isnt the same as team target, it gets messy.

I guess there isnt much of a solution to this, but i'd prefer that at least Shadowsong and Disenchantment hit someone properly, unless i specifically call target after i create em.
Actually while doing some testing of my own yesterday (I wouldn't even call it testing really, just random observations when I realized "hey, I'm using my ritualist and dropping Pain a lot, what happens if...") I discovered that just attacking a target, not Ctrl+Space, would be enough to get a spirit to pick a target. So there you go, stop being afraid of hitting things with your staff in PvP and try to nail people after you summon a spirit.

Servant of Kali
17-05-2006, 20:35
Did you just hit target once? Cause im curious. I still havent tested it all, the problem i have is, every second is important, sometimes as soon as i cast spirit im knocked down, or i need to kite (or die), or im casting instantly another spirit (well ok i guess i could shoot once n then cast).

In either way, seems like spirits need lots of micromanagement.. oh well :) should get used to it.

Selene Raseth
17-05-2006, 21:00
So you'll complain something doesn't work, do a few tests, conclude it's jacked, spend all this time discussing it, and not bother checking to see whether the spirits attack whoever is doing something they specifically target and is making them the target they switch to? If you're that curious about it, go test it. If this thread is just to have other people do your work, at least ask people to do so instead of throwing out pointless complaints all the time.

Feynt
17-05-2006, 21:52
As far as I saw, I completed summoning Pain or Shadowsong, attacked (or was already attacking) a particular enemy, and the spirit followed suit. As my ritualist doesn't really cast a whole lot until stuff starts dying (minion bomber) I've got time to attack. However in a PvP environment I'm sure I'd need different tactics (not to mention a different build, except 12v12).

SerenitySilverstar
18-05-2006, 03:29
*edit* nvm. Answered my own question.

Servant of Kali
19-05-2006, 15:57
Ok, after further playing..... maybe im just doing something wrong, but spirits definitely dont hit called target every time i cast em. I was even just casting spirit, then ctrl+space n started hitting a target.. just to test it. And nope, spirit turned around n started hitting someone else. Of course this did not happen every time, sometimes it hit someone i wanted. And it would hit painful bonded target more often, but then again maybe it's just my predictability whom it will hit already. No idea.

Shrimp
20-05-2006, 05:11
For target calling control-shift-space is your friend.

Feynt
20-05-2006, 09:13
Might actually have to do with me having already started attacking a foe when I summoned the spirit. <shrugs>

Servant of Kali
20-05-2006, 10:12
Ah thx, i forgot bout shift one... yea i'll try that.

Doyle
23-05-2006, 13:53
I spent about 2 hours on the Isle of the Nameless testing attacking sprits with the practice dummies. For these tests, I used a combination of Pain, Bloodsong and Shadowsong (as far as I could tell, the AI was the same for all of them). Ofc, since the dummies are classless, I couldn't test whether the spirits would pick an appropriate class. I ran at Communing 0 just to keep the spirits' lives short to speed testing. I used a longbow for all my target attacking (was just easier since it's the same range as the spirits).


If a spirit is summoned so that enemies are within its aggro circle and no one is already attacking a creature, it will immediately choose a target and begin attacking. This target is not necessarily the closest target.
If a spirit is summoned so that enemies are within range, but not within its aggro circle and no one is already attacking a creature, it will not attack. (Note, this is likely by design so that you can lay a bunch of spirits prior to calling a target)
Calling a target (CTRL-SHIFT-SPACE) does not cause a spirit to begin attacking (This one surprised me because I was almost certain that this used to work in practice. I can only suppose the the call was making a henchie attack and then the henchie was triggering the spirit attack.)
Once a spirit begins attacking something, there is no reliable way to get it to switch targets until that target is dead or moves out of range. (I got the spirit to switch once or twice in about 20 trials, but could never figure out why. Most of the time they would be dead set on their target once it was selected.)
If an ally (including a spirit) is attacking something and a spirit is summoned with multiple targets in its aggro circle, it will attack the target that is already under fire.
If a spirit is attacking something in range but outside its aggro circle due to an ally already attacking but that ally dies, the spirit will stop attacking.

I still feel like there's some "flakiness" in the spirit behavior. Although I observed all the above fairly consistently, every once in a while a spirit would surprise me and do something unusual. But these "behavior glitches" were never reproduceable.

My next steps are to get some guildies (with actual classes) for a GvG scrimage and test the Shadowsong/Dissonance target selection.

Servant of Kali
23-05-2006, 14:44
Thanks dfscott. Your testing pretty much goes with my observations.

Also, i think i noticed that Painful Bonded targets have priority on spirit list. Im still not totally sure about it... maybe a combination of painful+wanding that target makes spirits switch on it. Lately it seemed they do focus more on painfuled target. Or maybe it's just me evaluating better. Im not sure.

Definitely need more tests, but im so limited in time that even when i find it i'd rather relax in pvp or something :)

Selene Raseth
23-05-2006, 16:32
Launch an attack after every binding ritual will guarantee that the spirits will attack that target. Useful if you want a specific spirit to attack one target and the others to spike along. Has to be done at the right time though.

Boomstar
23-05-2006, 19:21
I haven't read the entire thread (sorry), but maybe painfull bond should have an extra effect that makes spirits attack targets hexed by it. It would make spirits like dissoance and disenchantment worth the cost.

Oh and hi forums!

Erasculio
23-05-2006, 19:43
I spent about 2 hours on the Isle of the Nameless testing attacking sprits with the practice dummies. For these tests, I used a combination of Pain, Bloodsong and Shadowsong (as far as I could tell, the AI was the same for all of them). Ofc, since the dummies are classless, I couldn't test whether the spirits would pick an appropriate class. I ran at Communing 0 just to keep the spirits' lives short to speed testing. I used a longbow for all my target attacking (was just easier since it's the same range as the spirits).


If a spirit is summoned so that enemies are within its aggro circle and no one is already attacking a creature, it will immediately choose a target and begin attacking. This target is not necessarily the closest target.
If a spirit is summoned so that enemies are within range, but not within its aggro circle and no one is already attacking a creature, it will not attack. (Note, this is likely by design so that you can lay a bunch of spirits prior to calling a target)
Calling a target (CTRL-SHIFT-SPACE) does not cause a spirit to begin attacking (This one surprised me because I was almost certain that this used to work in practice. I can only suppose the the call was making a henchie attack and then the henchie was triggering the spirit attack.)
Once a spirit begins attacking something, there is no reliable way to get it to switch targets until that target is dead or moves out of range. (I got the spirit to switch once or twice in about 20 trials, but could never figure out why. Most of the time they would be dead set on their target once it was selected.)
If an ally (including a spirit) is attacking something and a spirit is summoned with multiple targets in its aggro circle, it will attack the target that is already under fire.
If a spirit is attacking something in range but outside its aggro circle due to an ally already attacking but that ally dies, the spirit will stop attacking.

I still feel like there's some "flakiness" in the spirit behavior. Although I observed all the above fairly consistently, every once in a while a spirit would surprise me and do something unusual. But these "behavior glitches" were never reproduceable.

My next steps are to get some guildies (with actual classes) for a GvG scrimage and test the Shadowsong/Dissonance target selection.
There's one flaw in that study, though: believe it or not, the higher level spirits have better AI. That's very easy to see in the Monastery island, where you can stand close to the enemies without them attacking you. Your first observation (the spirits attack enemies within range even if no one is atacking no one) stops working once your spirits are at a high level (not maximum, not sure how much) - they will not attack unless you attack the enemies (and then they will always attack) or the enemy attacks you (then, they won't always attack).

Erasculio

Doyle
23-05-2006, 20:48
There's one flaw in that study, though: believe it or not, the higher level spirits have better AI. That's very easy to see in the Monastery island, where you can stand close to the enemies without them attacking you. Your first observation (the spirits attack enemies within range even if no one is atacking no one) stops working once your spirits are at a high level (not maximum, not sure how much) - they will not attack unless you attack the enemies (and then they will always attack) or the enemy attacks you (then, they won't always attack).

Erasculio

Interesting. I'll have to try that.


Launch an attack after every binding ritual will guarantee that the spirits will attack that target. Useful if you want a specific spirit to attack one target and the others to spike along. Has to be done at the right time though.

In the tests that I performed, they did not behave that way. Perhaps I wasn't doing it at the "right time" -- can you be more specific what the "right time" is?

cycloop
23-05-2006, 21:04
I haven't read the entire thread (sorry), but maybe painfull bond should have an extra effect that makes spirits attack targets hexed by it. It would make spirits like dissoance and disenchantment worth the cost.

Oh and hi forums!

I'm actually pretty sure of that... well almost pretty sure :laugh:

Selene Raseth
23-05-2006, 22:12
The right time would be when the spirit is actually there and to attack so that you aren't at the recover part of attacking when the spirit gets his target. There is a delay after finishing the binding of about a second before the spirit even appears, so attacking then to target is kinda obviously pointless. The problem with attacking also is that if it is during a lull when the spirit starts attacking it will be random. Watching the animation of it will get you better at timing, but telling you the exact timing is a little difficult to do. Given that it does work, which is more than I had to work with when figuring out how to do it, that should be plenty to work with. It might take some work on other's parts to get it right for them, but being as it would be less than what I did I'm ok with that.

Servant of Kali
23-05-2006, 23:35
Launch an attack after every binding ritual will guarantee that the spirits will attack that target.

No it does not guaranteee me, sorry. And my spirits are like higher lvl (14 in communing, 9 in spawning).

Patccmoi
24-05-2006, 00:44
Interesting thread. It always seemed to me that spirits simply attack someone in range at random when you cast them and never switch target until target is dead or out of range. I didn't test seriously at all tough, so it's interesting to see what yall found out.

As for Shadowsong being useless for that reason, i really disagree. In GvG, Shadowsong and Disenchantment have 2 very good use afaik, and that's preventing a lone warrior or assassin from rushing your backline. An AoD assassin that teleports on someone when a Disenchantment is behind will be targeted, disenchanted and sent back home. A lone warrior going for your monk with a Shadowsong behind them will be targeted, blind and won't ever be able to get out of it without going out of its range (or having someone else kill the spirit). The way to use them is to position them BEHIND your monks, so that no one truly stays in their range except targets that you want them to hit. If a caster gets targeted by them, he'll very likely get out of their range soon after and won't prevent your spirit from targetting properly. Spirit positioning is very important for that. Draw Spirit can allow them to switch target too (draw them out of range, draw them back in)

Doyle
24-05-2006, 01:21
Your first observation (the spirits attack enemies within range even if no one is atacking no one) stops working once your spirits are at a high level (not maximum, not sure how much) - they will not attack unless you attack the enemies (and then they will always attack) or the enemy attacks you (then, they won't always attack).

Ok, I was able to get this to happen once, but then I went back and tried with every level of spirit from 1 to 8 and they all attacked a target when I cast them within aggro range (and I wasn't attacking).


Launch an attack after every binding ritual will guarantee that the spirits will attack that target.

Similar to what Patccmoi said, I tried this over and over again and I could never influence them to pick my target.

However, I did discover one useful thing. When testing near the different armor dummies, the three spirits I tested (Pain, Blood Song, and Shadowsong) all attacked one of the AL 60 dummies. This is good news to users of Dissonance and other anti-caster spirits, but not great for Shadowsong users.

Finally, the presense or absense of Painful Bond seemed to make no difference at all. Even given the choice of two equally low AL targets, one hexed and one not, the AI did not favor the hexed target.

All in all, a pretty disappointing performance for the spirits. :hang:

Servant of Kali
24-05-2006, 09:44
As for Shadowsong being useless for that reason, i really disagree. In GvG, Shadowsong and Disenchantment have 2 very good use afaik, and that's preventing a lone warrior or assassin from rushing your backline.

Yep i do agree. Actually, i've been adapting to shadowsong in 4v4 as well and i usually cast it first, before anyone is in aggro range. So.. when warrior charges in first (and they usually do) it should hit him first. Then i start putting other spirits offensively.
---


This is good news to users of Dissonance

Actually.. it depends. In Team Arena most (good) monks are boon prot. Needless to say, hitting it does hardly any good. So unless spirit hits ele or necro instead.. it's still... doubtful how much usefulness dissonance has in that arena. I cant speak in general of course, in other places it might be better. I dont expect every skill to be good in every situation :)

But in any case, as you have said, spirits dunnot hit the target ur hitting. This i am definitely sure of. I didnt test it the way u did, but after u spend tons of time in battles... it becomes pretty obvious. I used to call target several times rapidly, used to wand, this n that.. nothing helped :)


ps: i still do think painful bond might attract more spirit intention... or higher chance of switching, or something like it. Im not sure, but i really think this should be doubletested.

cranialexodus
24-05-2006, 12:05
By the sound of it, spirits share the same targeting AI as minions?

Servant of Kali
24-05-2006, 12:28
Highly likely, but i havent played minion master ever :)