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Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 04:21
While exploring the possiblities surrounding the incursions of chaotic darkness at the Tomb of Primeval Kings in Tyria and on Shing Jea Island during the Dragon Festival in Cantha, I suddenly realized a very shocking possibility regarding the nature of the pantheon of gods of Guild Wars.

We know that the Guardians of Komaile, the Unseen Ones, and the race of interdimensional travelers known as the Mursaat once worshipped the Old Gods, as evidenced by the temples throughout Tyria bearing strong cultural ties to the Mursaat. However, we also know, due to their outlawing of Old God worship in Kryta, that the Mursaat no longer hold the pantheon in high regards.

Why is that; what do the Mursaat know that we don't?

To find out, we must not only examine the nature of the gods themselves, but also the possible theoretically foundations of the current day Mursaat culture.

Let's begin with Lord Odran, the Mage Lord and first man to access the Rift. According to the European Guild Wars Manuscripts, Lord Odran was successful, like King Doric before him, in finding and speaking to the gods. What this implies, is that Odran's race was in danger, and also that Odran's discussion with the gods somehow transformed the nature of his race (just like Doric's blood sealing the Bloodstones and transforming parts of the human race into a subgroup known as the Chosen). I believe that this is the instance that the Mursaat assumed their role as the Guardians of the Door of Komalie.

But why? Why was it necessary to keep the Titan's at bay--and if my theory is correct--why did the gods feel it necessary to place the Mursaat in this position?

Before Lord Odran was torn to shreds by the vengeful spirits of the Hall of Heroes, he hid his portals to the realms of the gods (the Mists) in the most treacherous of places, and within the temples built by the Mursaat (further supporting my theory of a Mursaat Odran).

So, why were the gods frightened of the Titans, and what did Odran and the Mursaat learn that led them away from the worship of the Old Gods?

To answer this, it is important to analyze the nature of where Odran hid his portals, and the irony there within. The temples to the gods built by the Mursaat were built before Lord Odran placed portals there. I reach this conclusion through logical deduction. If Lord Odran's work uncovered something that led away from the gods, the temples would not have been built afterwords as they would have been irrelevent, also, the fact that he could put his portals there means that they already existed.

This is where the subtle irony of Lord Odran comes into play. Why did he chose these temples? Not just because of the level of danger in reaching them, as the Manuscripts describe, but also as a riddle to solve the truth that the Mursaat uncovered.

You see, these temples represent not only the gods who's statues stand there, but also the very worship of these gods. The portals Odran hid lead to the Mists, but more importantly, lead to the Fissure of Woe and the Underworld, the personal realms of two of the pantheon's most recognized and widely worshipped gods, Balthazar and Grenth. There in lies the key.

When one travels through these portals, they are faced not only with the realm of the god, but also with the truth of the god as well--a struggle for power. In the Underworld, we learn that Grenth was not the first god of death, but rather, claimed the position from Dhum, the prior god of death who usurped the position. From quests and dialouge, we learn the Grenth killed Dhum. Killed a god? Even the Greeks and Romans thought this was impossible, except in certain cases. Indeed, invincibility and immortality are halmarks of what makes a god a god. Gods cannot die, except in epic battles, such as the Norse Ragnarok or the battles between the Titans and the gods of Greek mythos. Yet, common political struggles killed Dhum, not some epic final battle to determine the fate of the world. In the Fissue of Woe, a similar situation is unfolding. Menzies, the god of destruction, is seeking to usurp the title of god of war from Balthazar, his half-brother. Whether Dhum or Menzies, both have armies fighting for their cause. Why does a god need an army?

What Odran realized is that the gods did not leave Tyria, but rather retreated from it. With the races becoming increasingly powerful and increasingly self-aware, the gods knew their positions as dieties would soon come into question. As long as they remained in Arah, they were tangible, corporeal, they could be seen and touched and interacted with, but by removing themselves, they could become legends, and myths in their own right.

The revelation that the Mursaat uncovered is that the Old Gods are not gods, but rather daedra. For those of you unfamiliar with the Elder Scrolls series (which contains Morrowind and Oblivion among other titles), the Daedra are a race of demigods (for lack of a better term) that have created realms of "Oblivion" and are worshipped as dieties by the people of Tamriel. They have set up statues in the Daedra's honor. Is this a coincidence--that the gods of Tyria are worshipped in a shockingly similar fashion? I think not.

To clarify, I am not suggesting that there is a link between the Elder Scrolls and Guild Wars. I am simply implying that the gods of Guild Wars, when created by ANet, were inspired by the Bethesda's daedra of the Elder Scrolls, and thus I use the term daedra for lack of a better.

You see, the "gods" of Tyria are not gods at all, but rather daedra, but more so, while they are immortal, they are not invincible. With the Mursaat poking closer and closer to the truth, perhaps even in danger of becoming daedra themselves, and the threat of the Titans as well as internal struggles growing, the pantheon of Tyrian gods assigned the Mursaat the task of guarding Komalie.

This served two purposes. It not only kept a strong and threatening outside force away from the daedra "gods" but it also kept the main body of Mursaat busy, and thus, kept them from obtaining the secrets of the gods.

Yet even with this measure in place, the Mursaat were getting close. Not only were they aware now of the farce of dietism the Old Gods had shaped, but they were on the path to becoming on par with them as well.

Enter Glint and the Flameseeker Prophecies. It is no secret Glint is a servent of the Old Gods, in fact, she was created with the Forgotten to "keep balance". I theorize that this balance is in reality the secret of the Old Gods. When someone gets too close to the truth, Glint or the Forgotten intervene to prevent it.

If I am correct, the Hall of Heroes, which was eventually Odran's downfall, was put in place and filled with the souls of the bravest and most fiercesome warriors, as another metaphysical line of defense against intruders seeking the truth of the Old Gods. Lord Odran died because he came too close to the truth (although to the spirits who killed him, it was due to the fact that they were upset that a commoner could enter their realm).

Through the sacrafice of the Chosen, who were imbibed with the the power of the gods from King Doric's bloodline, the Mursaat not only kept the Door of Komalie shut (because yes, the Titans were a threat to them as well) but also gained power closer and closer to that of the gods themselves. Now the Mursaat were making lifeforms, just as the gods did (read: Jades), although they were not perfect, they were becoming more and more refined. At first it was just autonomotonic towers, but eventually, lifeforms who could battle and strategize. Some Mursaat, specifically those who would be known also as "Mage Lord" created entire races of personal minions, shockingly similar to the very creatures the gods had created for their personal armies (Minotaurs, Wind Riders, Storm Kin and the like, notice how they looks like creatures form the Fissure and Underworld?) Furthermore, the Mursaat had gained the powers of levitation, teleportation, and Spectral Agony. Why do you think Eldion was resistant to Spectral Agony? It is because the creature is from the Underworld, and is exposed to the power of the gods, and has adapted to it as time progressed. The final straw came when the Mursaat set themselves up as gods in Kryta. Now the Mursaat were attempting to hide their secrets, just as the Old Gods had done before them; if successful, they would be gods in the eyes of millions, just as the Old Gods before them, and their journey would be one step closer to completion.

Now the gods call upon Glint, who they have locked away in a sand grain so that she too, a powerful creature, cannot threaten them too much. Glint formulates a plan and names it the Flameseeker Prophecies, a grand scheme to halt the Mursaat's romp towards dietism, and to restore the "balance" of Old God worship in Tyria, and "expose" the Mursaat.

Why are the Titans locked away? Because they are powerful enough to challenge the daedra Old Gods, and because they, like the Mursaat, become dieties in the eyes of a race of Tyrian creatures (the Charr). Why is Glint locked away? Becuase she, like the Titans, may have been able to challenge the Old Gods, rather than let it spiral like the Titans, they locked her away and gave her a "purpose" so she wouldn't question the godhood of the Old Gods. Why are the Mursaat the Guardians of Komalie? Because they also came too close to the truth at one time, and the gods tried to lead them away. Only this time, because of the isolation of the Old Gods (being away from Tyria) they could not stop the Mursaat quickly enough, and the Mursaat quickly tried to obtain the secrets of the Old Gods and become daedra themselves.

Thus, the Mursaat, who adopted the Eye of Janthir because they once had open eyes to see the will of the gods (perhaps they were the mysterious race known as the Seekers in the Crystal Desert, but that is a discussion for another lecture), kept the symbol to represent that they now saw the truth of the Old Gods.

The story of Guild Wars is bigger than the Mursaat, the Titans, or Shiro, it is actually the story of the deception of a race of "godly" powerful beings, who are desperate to keep their secrets hidden. Yet, through the help of people like Lord Odran, who carefully hid the riddle of the Old Gods in his portals, research, and travels through Tyria and the Mists, the truth is finally revealed to us, something the Mursaat have long been aware of, and the reason they abandoned their worship of the Old Gods.

The Mursaat no longer worship the Old Gods not only because they know what they are, but also because they are attempting to become what they have discovered. And thus, the Odran Code is unravelled at last, opening a new view into the realm of Guild Wars, and unleashing a whole new world of lore possibilities.

This concludes my lecture on my theory regarding the nature of the Mursaat and the mystery of the Old Gods. I look forward to the discussions that will follow, and hope I have helped to enlighten just as I feel I have been.

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 04:26
Final Related Thoughts and Hypotheses:

Also, my theory leads to a plausible hypthesis that explains the "Shadow Army" employed by Menzies. He is using the images of White Mantle as a taunting factor towards his half-brother. A means of saying, "Hey, you really are held in high regard to those Tyrians, oh yeah, except these ones who figured you out! You aren't qualified for your position, and I'm going to take it from you!" It may even go as far, as some have suggested, that it may be possible these are actually the literal souls of the White Mantle, unable to rest in the afterlife because of the shocking realization of the truth (they were already exposed to it, due to their worship of the Unseen Ones), and thus, fighting the pantheon as a way of aiding their own gods' (Mursaat) battle towards daedraism back on Tyria. It is possible that Menzies and the other lesser gods were against what the pantheon did, and thus were cast aside, and are now aiding those who are attempting to expose them. However, this paragraph I only consider a hypothesis, not a theory, as it is based more on speculation than on known facts, unlike the main body of my lecture.

Durza the Shadeking
01-07-2006, 05:09
Your theroy seems very realistic, accept for one portal, The Tomb of the Primeval Kings. Now it was said that Odran put them in hard to reach places, yet how would he know where this Tomb is? It gives even mor reason to believe that the Mursaat were in that area, and maybe even began the construction of the Tomb there.
I also saw you hinting towards the Mage Lords, and I will have that document out as soon as possible.

P.S. Love the name The Odran Code (Da Vinci Code FTW!)

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 05:19
Your theroy seems very realistic, accept for one portal, The Tomb of the Primeval Kings. Now it was said that Odran put them in hard to reach places, yet how would he know where this Tomb is? It gives even mor reason to believe that the Mursaat were in that area, and maybe even began the construction of the Tomb there.
I also saw you hinting towards the Mage Lords, and I will have that document out as soon as possible.

P.S. Love the name The Odran Code (Da Vinci Code FTW!)

It's important to remember that Lord Odran's portal's granted him access to all parts of the Mists. It is quite likely that during his ventures he discovered the Tombs. Also, if the Mursaat were a race who Ascended in the Crystal Desert, as evidence suggests, then they most likely knew about the Tombs, perhaps some of their ancient kings are even buried there, who knows. At any rate, it definantely qualifies as a "hard to reach" location, although I do not believe it was built by the Mursaat, even if Odran hid one of his portals there (which I'm not sure of), and thus did not include it it in my lecture.

And yes, I did use The Da Vinci Code as an inspiration for titling my article, as I knew it was both appropiate (regarding the content subject matter) and it would catch people's eye.

Gmr Leon
01-07-2006, 05:21
Is it at all possible that Menzies, by chance, could be a Mursaat? Last I checked we never see old Menzies, so it is possible.

Also, since the Mursaat figured out the Old Gods' secret, that they were demi-gods.Does this mean that the White Mantle was actually an organized revolt against the Old Gods? Yet the Krytans were too devout in their beliefs to turn away from the Old Gods and follow the Unseen Ones, in their eyes, lies?

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 05:38
I would have to say yes, the White Mantle is an organized revolt against the Old Gods, but they do not realize it. To them, they are revolting because the Old Gods abandoned them in their time of need (the Charr invasion), but this is in turn serving the Mursaat's purposes.

As some have suggested, the ultimate goal of the Charr may have been to free the Titans in the Ring of Fire Islands. Yet, it is obvious they would not have been able to, with the Mursaat in the way. Perhaps Glint planned on the Mursaat and Charr wiping each other out? Is it coincidental that the Vizier also blew up Orr when he opened the "forbidden" scroll? Why did the scroll blow up anyway? I believe that what the Vizier found were documents detailing the secret of the gods. To him, however, they were weapons, and when he uttered the words, it transformed him into a form lesser than both the Mursaat and the Old Gods, but still on the path to becoming daedric like them. If you look at what he is doing, it's painfully obvious his goals are similar to that of the Mursaat and the Old Gods as outlined in my lecture, he is just using different means to reach his goals. Luckly, Glint was there to restore "balance".

As I said, the "balance" is keeping the Old Gods deities, and their secrets hidden. That's why the Vizier blew up, because the Old Gods had booby trapped that scroll to self-destruct if someone got to close to finding out what it said. That said, it was probably in a language the Vizier didn't understand, and thus, to him it was just a potential weapon (when someone says "forbidden magic" people automatically assume "weapon"). Odds are he was able to read far enough (remember, without understanding) to get to the line that said, "utter this to be a god" and managed to get through, "utter this to be a..." before Orr exploded. Thus, when he was transformed into the Lich, he was corrupted. He didn't know why he was trying to take over the world, he only knew that it was something to do, because the magicks that would have turned him into a daedra were still "half" complete in him, and drove him to do what he did. He lost his rational thinking mind and became driven by those half-complete magicks.

As for Menzies, I do not believe he is a Mursaat. Afterall, he is the half-brother of Balthazar, and Balthazar is not a Mursaat. I think Menzies is just an outcast of the pantheon using the Mursaat's quest to his own personal advantage.

Gmr Leon
01-07-2006, 05:43
*smacks head,"Doh!"* When I typed that up I forgot Menzies was the half-brother of Balthazar.

Actually...This also brings up the question of, who were Menzies and Balthazar's parents? Did all of the Gods have parents before them? If so is it possible that there was a lineage before the Gods we see today that ended up guarding the secret to becoming demi-gods/goddesses throughout the years?

Almost forgot, but this brings to question how exactly Menzies became Balthazar's half-brother in the first place.

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 05:47
*smacks head,"Doh!"* When I typed that up I forgot Menzies was the half-brother of Balthazar.

Actually...This also brings up the question of, who were Menzies and Balthazar's parents? Did all of the Gods have parents before them? If so is it possible that there was a lineage before the Gods we see today that ended up guarding the secret to becoming demi-gods/goddesses throughout the years?

Yeah, the secret was probably passed on through the generations of "gods", being finally inherited by the current generation.

I don't think their parents are really an issue. In pantheons such as the one used by Guild Wars, the gods always had parents, siblings, and children, that is just a characteristic of that kind of mythos.

You know...what if the Seers are actually the Old Gods...? We've never seen the Old Gods other than their representations in statues, and the picture of them in the Manuscripts differs vastly from those statues. The Old Gods may have assumed the role of the fictional race of Seers to help plead their cause to the players in defeating the Mursaat... Think about it, the Mursaat use the Eye Of Janthir to represent their "True Sight", the Isle of Janthir's population is said to all have True Sight (obviously refering to the Mursaat who live there being aware of the truth discussed here), and the Seers have named themselves the "Seers". Why did they choose that name, and what exactly are the Mursaat and Seers at war over? Also, think about the number of Seers we see in game (three), just like the three gods that lived in Arah, the Seer in the Ice Caves even says that it has "travelled far and waited long" It all fits...

Gmr Leon
01-07-2006, 05:52
It is possible, since the Gods/Goddesses may have the ability to change their form or shapeshift.

This whole idea of yours really helps to prove the Flameseeker Prophecies being a conspiracy after all. Though if you think about it, why wouldn't the Forgotten question the Old Gods? I mean sitting around being servants to some gods, you would think they would begin to question their power.

Actually, do we know if those Seers aren't the same one as we meet in the Ice Caves? Oh, and isn't there a Seer in each of the Ring of Fire Islands Chain missions? Or am I mistaken and it's only the Ring of Fire and Abaddon's Mouth?

Isle of Janthir? I haven't heard of that myself. Remember though we hear the "Eye of Janthir" and etc. Who exactly is Janthir anyway? Assuming Janthir is a person that is.

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 06:04
It is possible, since the Gods/Goddesses may have the ability to change their form or shapeshift.

This whole idea of yours really helps to prove the Flameseeker Prophecies being a conspiracy after all. Though if you think about it, why wouldn't the Forgotten question the Old Gods? I mean sitting around being servants to some gods, you would think they would begin to question their power.

Do the Forgotten actually worship the Old Gods? It may be they are aware of it, but being the gods first creations, they are loyal or indifferent. Being the first probably led them to having a stronger faith than the average race on Tyria, after all, the gods put a lot of faith in them (making them the Custodians of Tyria), so it makes sense they put a lot of faith back into those same gods. This does explain why they seem to serve or at least be in alignment with Glint.


Actually, do we know if those Seers aren't the same one as we meet in the Ice Caves? Oh, and isn't there a Seer in each of the Ring of Fire Islands Chain missions? Or am I mistaken and it's only the Ring of Fire and Abaddon's Mouth?

There may be more Seers, but then again, there are more Old Gods too. However, I personally feel that, due to the symantics of their dialouge (i.e the way they talk to the player), the Seers in each mission are seperate.


Isle of Janthir? I haven't heard of that myself. Remember though we hear the "Eye of Janthir" and etc. Who exactly is Janthir anyway? Assuming Janthir is a person that is.

The Isle of Janthir is where the Mursaat took Saul D'Alessio after he wandered into their city in the Maguuma Jungle. As for who Janthir is, I'm not even sure if it is a person or not. Janthir may be a word in the Mursaat language, or it may even be a concept. For instance, Janthir may mean "True Sight", which would mean the Isle of Janthir is the "Isle of True Sight" (after all its residents are said to all have the ability of True Sight) and the Eye of Janthir is the "Eye of True Sight" (as it grants True Sight to those who have it with them). That seems more likely to me than Janthir being an actual entity.

Gmr Leon
01-07-2006, 06:15
So, if the Mursaat do have their own language,how did they speak with Saul? I'm going to guess that they knew both their language and the language of we humans. Then again...we never have heard the Mursaat speak. I agree with you that Janthir might be a word in the Mursaat language.

Also, your explanation about why the Forgotten still follow the Old Gods does make sense. I then find it interesting as to why the Old Gods would leave behind their secret in the Catacombs of Arah,it could be that they left in haste and forgot it. Though I highly doubt that.

Wild card here, the Great Giants that walked Tyria in 10,000 BE is before the Serpents arrive to aid the Gods in creation of the world to help maintain balance and etc. This tells us that there were creatures around Tyria before Tyria's creation, how the hell is that possible? Or did the Gods just suddenly decide after awhile "Hey, let's create some servants!" and that's how it happened?

I think it's possible the Dwarves and the Great Giants lived before the Old Gods, yet I don't quite know how it's possible..

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 06:20
So,if the Mursaat do have their own language,how did they speak with Saul? I'm going to guess that they knew both their language and the language of we humans. Then again...we never have heard the Mursaat speak. I agree with you that Janthir might be a word in the Mursaat language.

The Mursaat probably communicate telepathically. That's why they are able to coordinate attacks and communicate without us ever seeing them talk. If that's so, they may be able to communicate with anyone in any language, as thoughts don't have a language. Even though we percieve our thoughts in a certain language, the concept of thought itself has none and is indeed universal to all sentient lifeforms.

If the word janthir means something, as I believe and have suggested, it probably carried over from a time before the Mursaat could communicate in my proposed manner.


Wild card here, the Great Giants that walked Tyria in 10,000 BE is before the Serpents arrive to aid the Gods in creation of the world to help maintain balance and etc. This tells us that there were creatures around Tyria before Tyria's creation, how the hell is that possible? Or did the Gods just suddenly decide after awhile "Hey, let's create some servants!" and that's how it happened?


Perhaps the Old Gods claimed credit for something they didn't actually do? (i.e. the creation of Tyria).

Gmr Leon
01-07-2006, 06:26
It's all too possible you're correct. It would also be interesting to see the reaction of the NPCs in Tyria to what we're suggesting and what we've discovered. We'd be hung, burned at the stake, gutted, and have our corpses dragged along the streets in the most grotesque of manner no doubt.

That aside, if the Mursaat did speak to Saul telepathically would he not just think he was insane? I mean the way he first discovered them it was very possible he would think he had. Also, Spectral Agony, is it only emitted to hurt enemies or is it an ability they can activate anytime?

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 06:34
It's all too possible you're correct. It would also be interesting to see the reaction of the NPCs in Tyria to what we're suggesting and what we've discovered. We'd be hung, burned at the stake, gutted, and have our corpses dragged along the streets in the most grotesque of manner no doubt.

Actually, probably not. If you look at the nature of the people of Guild Wars, they aren't exactly puritanical in their beliefs. In Ascalon, it'd be dismissed, after all, there is a war to fight, who cares about the nature of the gods as long as they bless the battle. In the Shiverpeaks, they don't even worship the gods so they wouldn't care, they'd just shrug and say, "Great Dwarf". In Kryta, the White Mantle would be like, "RIGHT ON!" and we'd be knighted. In Cantha, they'd just look at you and ask if you had food. The only place I wouldn't pull that kind of talk out is in Echovald Forest. The Kurzicks might actually do what you just described.


That aside, if the Mursaat did speak to Saul telepathically would he not just think he was insane? I mean the way he first discovered them it was very possible he would think he had. Also, Spectral Agony, is it only emitted to hurt enemies or is it an ability they can activate anytime?

Saul did think he was crazy. He thought he was halluncinating, that was until the things he bowed to actually fed him and saved him. It's also important to remember that people, in a time before psychological evaluations, didn't think like we do now. No one called Joan of Arc crazy (except the British) and she heard voices and called them God too (with very similar results to Saul, no less).

As for Spectral Agony, it can be emitted at any time, but due to the nature of it (being the release of a tortured soul), its only real application is as a weapon.

Gmr Leon
01-07-2006, 06:38
You are right..The Kurzicks would probably be the only ones to do what I described. Now that I really think about it, the Mursaat don't seem to attack with anything more than magic, however strong they may be, is it possible they lack physical strength? That would make sense seeing as to how they use the Jade Armors for most of the melee combat.

Before I forget to ask, do we even know how old the Mursaat are?

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 06:45
You are right..The Kurzicks would probably be the only ones to do what I described. Now that I really think about it, the Mursaat don't seem to attack with anything more than magic, however strong they may be, is it possible they lack physical strength? That would make sense seeing as to how they use the Jade Armors for most of the melee combat.

Before I forget to ask, do we even know how old the Mursaat are?

If the Mursaat are tuned to the metaphysical as I'm suggesting, and if they were actually the "Mage Lords" before Ascension, then it makes perfect sense that magic is their primary focus, and yes, I do think that's why they created the Jades.

As for the Mursaat's age, I'd say the current day Mursaat are no more than 300 years old (that's about when Odran opened the Mists), the race itself was probably a faction of humans before Ascension, so I'm not sure before then.

It's interesting to note that the Flameseeker Prophecies were predicted about the same time Odran entered the Rift, or, according to my theory, the Mursaat became a race.

Gmr Leon
01-07-2006, 06:54
Actually, is it possible that Odran was one of the first Mursaat to discover the ability to hover, use Spectral Agony, and etc. ? He must have learned a lot during his exploration of the Rift so it is possible. Also, that may explain why we only see the Enchanted in the Desert.

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 07:00
Actually, is it possible that Odran was one of the first Mursaat to discover the ability to hover, use Spectral Agony, and etc. ? He must have learned a lot during his exploration of the Rift so it is possible. Also, that may explain why we only see the Enchanted in the Desert.

Well, Odran used the sacrafice of souls to open the first portal into the Rift. Odds are, he may have already known a kind of magic that was a precursor to the Spectral Agony before ever entering the Mists. Also, I believe that Odran was not the only Mursaat into the Mists. It is likely many others also explored it (staying clear of the Hall of Heroes, of course), and increased the Mursaat's knowledge base. Odran, while being the forefather of the modern Mursaat, was probably not the only person who made a great contribution to the Mursaat race.

Gmr Leon
01-07-2006, 07:05
Is there any real explanation as to why there aren't Mursaat elsewhere on the GW world? If the Titans can kill them, why not just leave the place behind? Actually the answer is probably in that they have to keep the Door of Komalie shut. Though why not just expand, go start colonizing new places? They have the powers to survive, I see no reason other than their duty to keep the Door shut really.

Santax
01-07-2006, 07:47
Hmm... very good post Quintus. Expeditions of the Tombs need to be planned, and detailed (careful analysis of everything-dialogue, architecture etc.) expeditions of the Underworld and Fissure of Woe also need to be considered. I think that, for the more observant of us, some of the truth may be revealed at the end of the Festival, where the Emperor will do his ceremony, as many Emperors have done annually in the past at the Festival of the Dragon, and before that, the Harvest Festival.

Raven Flameheart
01-07-2006, 10:00
Quite a post - seems hard to take it all in at once ...

I'm not entirely sure how the Seers fit into this. The Seer in Iron Mines mentions that thier race were at war with the Mursaat, and that they attempted to destroy them, and failed. Alike the Mursaat, the Seers have the ability to hover above the ground. The Seers also have magic that works with souls, such that they can infuse your armour with the essence of an Eidolon. How would this relate to the Old Gods attempting to use the Mursaat for thier own ends?

Secondly, the entrances to the Mists seem very unlike the rest of the Mursaat structures. This could be a result of 300 or so years of progression, but if they're "kept busy" by guarding the Door, it seems that progress would be slow.

Finally, if the Old Gods did indeed charge the Mursaat with guarding the Door, I can understand why the souls of Chosen might be needed to keep the door closed - Doric and his line were charged with a great debt, and the sacrifice of some of them is one way for such a debt to be repaid. But when the Mursaat learned that one of this line were to be thier downfall, they over-farmed the Chosen to try to wipe them out. Of course, this does seem a rather short-sighted approach, but it is not clear how much keeping the Door closed "drains" the souls in the battery.

kagie
01-07-2006, 13:49
Hmmmm I like the theory Quintus, it reveals a lot for me. As a n00b in expeditioning i woud like to fill up the empty spots if were gonna plan a expedition to the tombs.

IGN: Kagie the sacred

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 17:06
Quite a post - seems hard to take it all in at once ...

I'm not entirely sure how the Seers fit into this. The Seer in Iron Mines mentions that thier race were at war with the Mursaat, and that they attempted to destroy them, and failed. Alike the Mursaat, the Seers have the ability to hover above the ground. The Seers also have magic that works with souls, such that they can infuse your armour with the essence of an Eidolon. How would this relate to the Old Gods attempting to use the Mursaat for thier own ends?

It's like I suggested, I believe that it may be possible that the Seers are in fact the Old Gods in disguise. If my original theory proposed in my lecture is correct, then the unknown motivations of the Seers coupled with what we already know seem to fit perfectly. How exactly did they know about Eidolon unless they had been exposed to the creature or came from the places where the creature lived? I believe most of the "image" of the Seer we see is just a pale front to fool the players into cooperating with Glint. Think about thow the Seers look: they are pale, grey, almost uncreative. I don't believe that is the Seers' true look. If the secret of the daedric demigods is in fact the ability to manipulate souls, or at least, started out that way, then it also makes sense that the Mursaat and Seers are so close.

While it is a bit of a stretch, I think that there are evident facts that seem to support what I'm trying to say. It is a lot ot take in at first, I was surprised too, but if you take each piece of evidence, in context, one piece at a time, you are able to start to see the truth of what I'm saying.


Secondly, the entrances to the Mists seem very unlike the rest of the Mursaat structures. This could be a result of 300 or so years of progression, but if they're "kept busy" by guarding the Door, it seems that progress would be slow.

To be fair, we do not know what Mursaat structures look like. The only Mursaat structures we've seen are the defensive stations on the Ring of Fire Islands. The temples seem to fit with the description of the Mursaat city that Saul found, in that they "shimmer". We also have no clue what the Isle of Janthir looks like. So you may be right, the architecture could be very similar in the Mursaat homeland, but if you look at military structures, they rarely reflect the culture of the homeland. Someone viewing a Roman frontline fort would never see the rich culture and architecture of Rome, for instance.

Another thing, I think it is absolutely naive to assume that the Mursaat at the Door are the only Mursaat. I personally believe there are three bodies of Mursaat--those guarding the Door, those in the Mursaat homeland, and those who act as leiasons to the White Mantle. So, even while one group is guarding the Door, others in the Homeland are able to advance the Mursaat culture and conduct research and the like. Soldiers are rarely scientists and vice versa, and those Mursaat we see in game are almost unquestionably "soldiers".


Is there any real explanation as to why there aren't Mursaat elsewhere on the GW world? If the Titans can kill them, why not just leave the place behind? Actually the answer is probably in that they have to keep the Door of Komalie shut. Though why not just expand, go start colonizing new places? They have the powers to survive, I see no reason other than their duty to keep the Door shut really.

To be fair, we don't know if there are or aren't. Remember, the Mursaat are also known as the Unseen Ones, they aren't the kinds of people who make their prescence known.

If the Mursaat population is waning as they approach their goal, as I believe it must be, then they may not have a population large enough to colonize anywhere else.

Gmr Leon
01-07-2006, 17:16
Before I forget, if you're going to set up an expedition you know my in-game name. Also, so you can have a good way of telling when I'm on I'm in the est time zone.

Anyway, besides that, what do the Mursaat use to create their structures? We've never seen a material similar to that in Tyria, it also looks very refined so they must be good with a forge I'd think.

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 17:29
Anyway, besides that, what do the Mursaat use to create their structures? We've never seen a material similar to that in Tyria, it also looks very refined so they must be good with a forge I'd think.

Actually, we have seen similar material in Tyria. During the original expedition for the Mursaat city that Malhavoc and I undertook, we discovered rocks in the Maguuma Jungle that shimmered and contained similar physical properties to the material used to build the Mursaat temples. I believe there are pictures in the Unseen Ones Revealed article.

ShadowSword
01-07-2006, 20:22
Reading through it's a very interesting hypothesis. It also seems very likely however there are a few things I find with it that seem unlikely.

The people the Gods are warring with are also Gods or at least demi-gods. Why can't a God be killed by a fellow God?

The Mursaat = Mage Lords sounds likely however I would also consider the possibility of the Seers also being Mage Lords, possibly ones in opposition to the Mursaat ones.

The Jade in my mind are mere machines. I don't believe they actually live though the Mursaat have in my mind grown arrogant enough to believe themselves apart from the Gods.

The Forgotten and Glint serve the Gods, but in my mind so do the Seers. I believe they may be rebel Mage Lords.

The Gods are not all poweful that's been shown however I DO believe they ae deities. However I believe other creatures can become deities and that's what the Mursaat were attempting. The Titans were a threat not to the Gods but to their creation and they gave a useful distraction to the Mursaat.

Djinn Effer
01-07-2006, 20:32
Anyone have an idea what happend to the Mursaat after the prophecies story line? Did we kill/destroy them or are they still around, was the Ring of Fire their only strongpoint or did they have other encampments?

Oh and, very nice theory Quintus.

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 21:02
The people the Gods are warring with are also Gods or at least demi-gods. Why can't a God be killed by a fellow God?


The problem with this question is it delves into the realm of "Can God heat a burrito so hot that He Himself cannot eat it."''

It also begs the question of the nature of a supreme entity. If you are omnipotent, which indeed a god should be as part of being a god, how can that omnipotence (which means all-powerful) be extingushed.

What happens when an irresistable force meets an unmovable object?

It has been philosophised that part of being omnipotent is to be aware of these limitations and somehow get around them by simply avoiding them. Or, yes God can heat a burrito that hot, but He wouldn't because He is God. Another idea is that while He could, He could then immediately bend His own power to become powerful enough to eat the burrito that was previously too hot to eat. So the answer is both yes and no at the same time. To think that God is bound by human rules is absurd, so questions like this are more or less just for entertainment.

To me, the fact that these daedra-like creatures known as the Old Gods never run into these problems, or even take consideration of them, shows that they simply aren't an issue.

Can I heat a burrito so hot I can't eat it? Absolutely. Can Balthazar? Definantely. Why? Because neither me nor Balthazar are gods and neither he nor me have to take into consideration that philosophical implications of supreme omnipotence.

I know that some of what I'm trying to say is very heavy philosophical baggage, I don't even fully comprehend it, but I don't think we as humans can, either.

But you see, it is largely irrelevent in the end, because the Mursaat do not worship the Old Gods. Just by the nature of the species of Tyria, this is almost unheard of. The Mursaat do know something that calls into question the divinity of the Old Gods, and more so, they are also pursuing the divine state themselves. Perhaps Lord Odran went out to lunch with Dwayna and her burrito was too hot.

ShadowSword
01-07-2006, 22:12
:huh: I'm not going to pretend I understood that...ok the Mursaat question their divinity but my main point is they ARE gods, just that goddism or whatever isn't restricted solely to them and that they only can be killed by other 'gods'. What decides whether they're gods or not I have no idea. Presuumably that knowledge is limited to the gods and the mursaat.

Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 22:27
Lemme put it another way:

If a god kills a god, thereby denying his or her basic fundamental ability to be a god, the universe would implode. That's pretty much what I was trying to say, but like I said, it's all just philiosophy.

Mularc Templare
02-07-2006, 01:47
Great Theory Quintus...I battered around a couple of these ideas before, but they seem to fit here.

I however, have a problem with your Forgotten/Seer classification. The more I see both species together, the more I see linkings. Its always been my belief that they came from the same species.

Another minor point, but one that throws a little spanner in the works -


From the Prophesies Lore Manual, Page 26

It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language, and aheared to an eloborate culture. They had been summond by the old gods, brought to this world to be the custodians.


Not that we're debating the nature of the Forgotten, but this shows that they were a species who lived before Tyria was created, and thus still leads me to think that they and the Seers were once one race - and like Menzies & Balthazar are suffering from sibling rivilary. If some gods had turned up at your world and asked another group to go and help them, leaving you stranded, wouldn't you be confused, if not angered?

As for the Titans, my paper is nearly ready to posted, although much of my findings were discovered by the rest of the forum peoples, so it may just be rehashing - the one thing I will say is that the Titans represent the rawest elemental forms incarnated.

As for the Mursaat having to keep the door closed - if the old gods have truely abandoned us, and wish to expunge the Mursaat, wouldn't that make them our ultimate "good guys?" they, as a race, are really guarding us.

The last point in my rant - being a God doesn't mean you can't have once been mortal. Take the Buddah for example - records show that he was a living breathing human, but he has become a "god" to many after his death - "god" to me is a title, not always an onipresent form.

Anyway, thats my 2c

Mularc

Quintus Antonius
02-07-2006, 03:01
I will start off by saying I fully disagree with the Seer-Forgotten connection. I have seen no credible evidence to suggest a connection, nor do I feel such a connection exists. I explained these feelings in another thread, but which escapes me at the moment.

That said, while I do not feel that the Seers gave rise to the Forgotten or vise versa, I do believe they are related in that they both have a connection to the Old Gods, however, I do not believe this relation to be biological or evolutionary in nature.

While I agree that a god can start as a mortal, I think your comparison to Buddah is flawed as in traditional Buddism, Buddah was not viewed as a god, but rather the ultimate example of what should be done. Indeed, the very nature of Buddism is counter to a deitistic relgion. It was only after Buddism mixed with other Asianic religions, such as Shinto of Japan, that Buddah assumed a deitistic position in the religion. In this case, it is important to seperate the myth of the man Buddah from the concept that the man taught. Buddism has adopted many forms and many ideals since its conception in the Indian region. Thus, I do not believe this example to be a practical application of what I was attempting to say.

I've always felt that the Mursaat were good guys, but I would also agree that they are "human" in that they have the capability to be both good and bad at the same time. That is one thing I really do like about the characters in Guild Wars, they are hardly one dimensional, even if the voice acting and cinemas seem to steal this aspect away.

Seyfert
02-07-2006, 04:56
hmmm great theory

hexal
02-07-2006, 15:23
So,if the Mursaat do have their own language,how did they speak with Saul? I'm going to guess that they knew both their language and the language of we humans. Then again...we never have heard the Mursaat speak. I agree with you that Janthir might be a word in the Mursaat language.
For the bonus of the Iron Mines mission, you hvae to kill a Mursaat boss. Well, this boss speaks. In speech bubbles he goes on with the usual bad guy "You can't kill me, I shall defeat you, all shall bow down to me" mumbo jumbo. So Mursaat can speak English or whatever thier language is called. Actually, what is thier language called?:huh:

Gmr Leon
02-07-2006, 15:59
Hexal thanks for pointing that out. I assume your talking about Kratos the Mighty?(No joke,two npcs have the name Kratos) I've never seen him speak personally,but still this is a good find.

Cyberman
02-07-2006, 17:05
It also begs the question of the nature of a supreme entity. If you are omnipotent, which indeed a god should be as part of being a god, how can that omnipotence (which means all-powerful) be extingushed.
Why does a god have to be omnipotent?
I mean, is absolute omnipotence really necessary to be a god?
If you´re omnipotent in comparison to a lesser being, aren´t you a god to it?

--

Even gods have to bow before the laws of nature/physics. There is nothing that can be outside of them.
The only question is - are the laws really the way we perceive them? A "god" might know more about the laws of physics than we do, seemingly acting outside of them.
[edit]Even "magic" is no more than highly advanced knowledge and/or technology.

Kara
02-07-2006, 17:12
This is an excellent theory, although it would be hard for my characters to even consider, I'm going to point folks at the GWRPA this way for a good discussion!

I think this is the most intriguing thing I've read in a long time, fantastic work!

:fortuneteller:

Quintus Antonius
02-07-2006, 19:25
For the bonus of the Iron Mines mission, you hvae to kill a Mursaat boss. Well, this boss speaks. In speech bubbles he goes on with the usual bad guy "You can't kill me, I shall defeat you, all shall bow down to me" mumbo jumbo. So Mursaat can speak English or whatever thier language is called. Actually, what is thier language called?:huh:

Yeah, well no one's mouths actually move in Guild Wars, so maybe we are all telepathic! :tongue:

Seriously though, I do believe the Mursaat are capable of conversing in spoken language, but I also feel that a species as advanced as they are can probably and do probably converse in a higher manner. Take that with a grain of salt though, as while there is some evidence suggesting it, there is no real undeniable evidence either. It's just a hypothesis, not even a theory.

Well, for ease of discussion, we'll just called the Mursaat language, "Mursaat". So the Mursaat speak Mursaat. Easy enough to remember.

Gmr Leon
02-07-2006, 21:09
Am I the only one who finds it odd the Mursaat don't have hair,but weird vein-like things on top of their head. It may be their brain,but it's really odd..

lavenbb
02-07-2006, 23:40
I think they have veins all over their body.. need to look at more screenshots..

Zaxares
02-07-2006, 23:50
Very interesting theory, Quintus. I think it's plausible for the most part, although I'll wait to see more evidence before I accept the validity of the theory.

As to the question of whether a god can be killed, that depends entirely on your idea of what a god is like. Many of the gods from old pantheistic religions could be (and did get) killed. Osiris from the Egyptian pantheon was killed (but later revived) by his brother Set. Baldur from the Norse pantheon was also killed (and he didn't come back either). Our idea of an all-powerful, unchallengable God comes mostly from our modern-day monotheistic religions, but that doesn't mean that the five 'true' gods of Guild Wars would share the same traits.

I do remember that Elementalist Mursaat boss (called 'The Inquisitor') in the Iron Mines of Moladune bonus, and yes, he DOES talk to you, although it's unknown if he's actually speaking or whether he's transmitting his thoughts to you directly.

One thing I'd like to add to this mix is that during the Defend Droknar's Forge titan quest, you can actually see bodies of Jade and Mursaat scattered throughout Mineral Springs as you fight the Frost Titans, but no corpses of Titans at all. Considering the power of the Mursaat, such an imbalance of casualties seems exceedingly odd. Perhaps the Titans are immune to the Spectral Agony power of the Mursaat, much like the Eidolons, which would give them a remarkable advantage in battle.

Gmr Leon
02-07-2006, 23:59
Quintus this is from the bonus of the Iron Mines mission Shining Blade Scout Ryder says:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a338/GmrLeon00/gw535.jpg

Also,proof the Inquisitor speaks/transmits thoughts/something:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a338/GmrLeon00/gw536.jpg

Quintus Antonius
03-07-2006, 00:03
One thing I'd like to add to this mix is that during the Defend Droknar's Forge titan quest, you can actually see bodies of Jade and Mursaat scattered throughout Mineral Springs as you fight the Frost Titans, but no corpses of Titans at all. Considering the power of the Mursaat, such an imbalance of casualties seems exceedingly odd. Perhaps the Titans are immune to the Spectral Agony power of the Mursaat, much like the Eidolons, which would give them a remarkable advantage in battle.

Yeah, but you also have to remember that Titans, once defeated, break almost completely down to nothing. I don't think the Mursaat were that ineffective, even if Spectral Agony didn't work. From their positions, it looks like they were simply overwhelmed from all angles. As someone else pointed out in a thread on the Mursaat, even with SA, you can still overwhelm the Mursaat.

***

Good find, Leon. It appears I was correct about Mursaat telepathy.

Zaxares
03-07-2006, 00:20
Yeah, but you also have to remember that Titans, once defeated, break almost completely down to nothing. I don't think the Mursaat were that ineffective, even if Spectral Agony didn't work. From their positions, it looks like they were simply overwhelmed from all angles. As someone else pointed out in a thread on the Mursaat, even with SA, you can still overwhelm the Mursaat.

Agreed, and it depends greatly on the variant of Titan you are facing. The Burning Titans break down to almost nothing (the Hands and Fists of the Titans leave nothing behind, for instance), but the Frost Titans spawnlings do leave noticeable corpses behind. (For the purposes of this theory, I'm assuming that corpse decay is not a factor)

Blobulator
03-07-2006, 06:08
Hi, I've been lurking for awhile, first time poster in the Lore Forums. Anyways in reguards to this whole Mursaat communication business...


Quintus this is from the bonus of the Iron Mines mission Shining Blade Scout Ryder says:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a338/GmrLeon00/gw535.jpg



I find it hard to argue with in game evidence, however I was reading some of the Lore on the Guild Wars website about Saul D'Alessio and I came across this...

"They were tall and thin with skin the color of golden ore. When they walked, their feet seemed not to touch the ground, and when they spoke, it was the most melodious sound he had ever heard. Surely these creatures were the stuff of divinity."

Does this mean that Saul D'Alessio actually HEARD the Mursaat speak English? Or, was it merely him perceiving their telepathic messages as being said verbally? I know he was half-insane by the time he reached the hidden home of the Mursaat, but still, do they speak English as well as their telepathic communications? Or have the writers just contradicted themselves?

(I read through the whole thread but I may have missed something, if I'm contradicting/repeating something that has already been said I'm sorry :undecided:)

Quintus Antonius
03-07-2006, 06:24
Yes, that Manuscripts say that, but it begs the question of how we define speaking. Is speaking the act of verbalizing, or can one speak mentally as well? Do actions not speak louder than words, yet actions do not talk?

I think even in the event of communicating telepathically, it would still be considered speaking. Also, I believe that the Mursaat have retained the ability to use spoken language, but do not use it among themselves. Imagine percieving millions of voices "speaking" in harmony within your mind. It would sound quite melodious, or it could sound like meaningless drivel. Whatever the case, the Manuscripts never say that Saul heard words, it only says he heard melodious voices. They needn't be verbalizing English for that to be so.

I really don't think in-game evidence contradicts the Manuscripts, nor do I think a creature can only speak verbally or speak mentally but not both. Any race as advanced as the Mursaat must surely be able to communicate in a variety of methods.

lavenbb
03-07-2006, 08:24
"and when they spoke, it was the most melodious sound he had ever heard."

I actually think this is just an allegory to describe telepathic communication.

or,

When Saul found the mursaat he's dying, and since it is unlikely that he, as an outlaw, would know what telepathy means, he simply wouldn't know it when he experienced it. If the thoughts transfered to him is soothing, then it will feel very much like "melodious sound".

Gmr Leon
03-07-2006, 21:57
Each of the characteristics of the Mursaat(except hovering and that stuff)really reminds me of elves,except minus the pointy ears. They're highly advanced,they're voices are melodious,and they have fair skin. I know it's off-topic to point that out,but if you compare the two they really do seem similar.

Do the Mursaat have ears by any chance? I've never really seen any signs of ears on them. I know creatures can hear without ears,look at the dinosaurs,but for a creature so human-like you think they would.

Spirit of Sephiroth
03-07-2006, 22:35
I'll be glad to go on an expidition; I can be a monk or a stance tank...

Same Name In Game!

Quintus Antonius
03-07-2006, 22:55
Each of the characteristics of the Mursaat(except hovering and that stuff)really reminds me of elves,except minus the pointy ears. They're highly advanced,they're voices are melodious,and they have fair skin. I know it's off-topic to point that out,but if you compare the two they really do seem similar.

Do the Mursaat have ears by any chance? I've never really seen any signs of ears on them. I know creatures can hear without ears,look at the dinosaurs,but for a creature so human-like you think they would.

The Mursaat are not elves.

To a medieval culture, any advanced civilization would seem "elven" (by your description). Except for the computers and stuff, modern humans are almost elven; except for the starships, logic, and stuff, Vulcans are almost elven and they do have pointy ears! Uranium is almost like lead, except for the radioactivity and stuff.

You see, you can compare anything to anything else if you remove fundamental qualities of their civilization.

Also, the ear is divided into two areas, the inner and outer ear. Just because an organism doesn't have the outer ear, which primary focus is sound amplification, doesn't mean it doesn't have ears. Also, you are humanizing the concept of sound. All "sound" is are waves of energy, vibrations. An organism can "hear" in ways other than with mammalian ears, just like snakes (for instance) can "see" with their tounges.

That said, I do think the Mursaat have ears, but I don't really remember, I'd have to see a side shot of their head.

KaliMagdalene
07-07-2006, 21:20
What definition are you using for "Daedra?" The daedra in TES games are immortal, unchanging creatures that can't die permanently. If you kill one, it just comes back. The Daedra Princes are essentially gods, although unlike the aedra (the Eight Divines) who can change and die. Nothing in TES really becomes daedra, although I believe certain individuals aspire to it. One aedra did become a daedra prince after another prince ate and excreted him as well.

Now, there are ways to become gods in TES. The Tribunal used the tools to become gods, as did Dagoth Ur. However, they and Tiber Septim are completely unlike the daedra.

Ascension in Guild Wars reminds me of something called "mantling" in TES, though: "Walk like the gods until they must walk like you." However, Ascension is itself clearly not apotheosis, where mantling actually is.

Just looking for clarification, as your usage is confusing me. Otherwise, good stuff. My only points of contention are that I would not define gods by how killable or omnipotent they are. I prefer to look at whether they embody archetypal forces/events/concepts - something that all of the Tyrian gods do.

Quintus Antonius
07-07-2006, 21:41
What definition are you using for "Daedra?" The daedra in TES games are immortal, unchanging creatures that can't die permanently. If you kill one, it just comes back. The Daedra Princes are essentially gods, although unlike the aedra (the Eight Divines) who can change and die. Nothing in TES really becomes daedra, although I believe certain individuals aspire to it. One aedra did become a daedra prince after another prince ate and excreted him as well.

Now, there are ways to become gods in TES. The Tribunal used the tools to become gods, as did Dagoth Ur. However, they and Tiber Septim are completely unlike the daedra.

Ascension in Guild Wars reminds me of something called "mantling" in TES, though: "Walk like the gods until they must walk like you." However, Ascension is itself clearly not apotheosis, where mantling actually is.

Just looking for clarification, as your usage is confusing me. Otherwise, good stuff. My only points of contention are that I would not define gods by how killable or omnipotent they are. I prefer to look at whether they embody archetypal forces/events/concepts - something that all of the Tyrian gods do.

I am using the word "daedra" highly liberally (to avoid copyrighted concepts). However, the definition you gave is also the basic concept I'm trying to push. They are immortal and unchanging, and like the TES daedra, they have their own realms and their influence, while great, is limited. However, like the aedra, I am attempting to say that the Old Gods ascended to the positions they are in (similar to the Nine Divines). My use of the word, while bringing concepts of TES to mind, is not meant to strictly be defined by the same parameters, but rather a lose application of the word, if you can understand my meaning.

It's a hodgepodge, in it's truest sense. Think of it like this: like the Tribunal, the Old Gods were once normal creatures (where from, I have no clue), but through some means, which the Mursaat are trying to recreate, they became like aedra, and through some other processes, which the Mursaat became aware of, they became like daedra, which they are now, but weren't always.

It is in their current form that I use the term "daedra".

In retrospect, perhaps that wasn't the absolute best word choice I could have used, but I think it is still the closest fit to what I'm trying to describe, and thus stick to it. In it's usage, I was also describing the worship practice and "living" conditions of the daedra (their planes of Oblivion), as well as the ability to conjure them.

KaliMagdalene
07-07-2006, 23:44
The Divines may or may not have ascended (except for Tiber Septim). Originally, they most certainly started out as aedra.

I think the defining point for daedra is that they can't die permanently. No matter how many times you kill one, it'll just come back. This is why I find it odd to apply it to the Mursaat - are they spirits who only die temporarily when you kill them, or when you kill them, do they remain dead?

Again, looking for clarification. :) I'm not asking you to stop using the terms or anything, just want to be sure about what's meant.

I do think you're dead on about the Mursaat seeking and finding something like Ascension and becoming like gods. I'm not sure if they're anywhere near on a par with entities like Balthazar, as we've seen no demonstrations of their power.

Quintus Antonius
08-07-2006, 00:05
The Divines may or may not have ascended (except for Tiber Septim). Originally, they most certainly started out as aedra.

I love the lore of TES, and while I think you and I could have amazing discussions on it, I also think we best steer away from it right now, just because I don't want to get too far off topic, and this is still Guild Wars.



I think the defining point for daedra is that they can't die permanently. No matter how many times you kill one, it'll just come back. This is why I find it odd to apply it to the Mursaat - are they spirits who only die temporarily when you kill them, or when you kill them, do they remain dead?

Ah, but remember, I didn't say the Mursaat were on par yet, I simply said that is their intention. In cases such a Dhuum, for instance, it appears that he may not be completely destroyed as we are led to believe. There is an ongoing discussion about this in other threads. I think if we really analyze the Old Gods, like I did, they are very similar to daedra, the difference being they ascended to the point, instead of just coming into being already there. Whether or not they can die permanantely is frankly unknown at this time. I think this is what the Mursaat discovered, and that is what is driving them. Right now I'd say they are somewhere between the Tribunal and the aedra, to put it in TES terms.


I do think you're dead on about the Mursaat seeking and finding something like Ascension and becoming like gods. I'm not sure if they're anywhere near on a par with entities like Balthazar, as we've seen no demonstrations of their power.

Yes, I agree, they aren't on par with the Old Gods, yet; but that is their ultimate goal. However, the Mursaat are already Ascended (see discussion on this in the Unseen Ones Revealed thread), or at least, evidence seems to indicate that. What they are doing now is going for the next step, I suppose you could say.

The Stiehl
08-07-2006, 00:50
So why is it there's only 5 Old Gods, while there are whole societies of Mursaat? Why did only 5 beings "transcend"?

Mularc Templare
08-07-2006, 04:25
Wow, a week missing really throws things out.

Stiehl, the Gods in GW are a pathanon, meaning of course, that there are many. We already see hints as to there being Gods outside of the ones our characters know and worship, such as Duhmm or Menzies. I was actually hoping that we would see some of them in Factions, but alas, Factions brought us only the Demi-goddesses of the Luxons, discussed in another topic (sorry, just got back so I'm a little rusty).

Hope that helps,

Mularc

Quintus Antonius
08-07-2006, 05:29
So why is it there's only 5 Old Gods, while there are whole societies of Mursaat? Why did only 5 beings "transcend"?

Like Mularc explained, there is a pantheon, which means there is very likely more gods than we know of currently.

Beyond this, I don't think the number of transcendees matters. If it works on an individual, it can work on a whole society, it may just be more complex or take more time. :nerd:

KaliMagdalene
08-07-2006, 06:59
One question I have to ask: If the Tyrian gods are sufficiently powerful, does it really matter if they're literally gods or not? I mean, the distinction may be completely irrelevant.

I don't think that being killable removes an entity from godhood in general, and I think that Grenth going to Dhuum's tower and killing/replacing him does sound a bit more epic than a political power struggle.

Of course, I don't really have any ideas as to why the gods left Tyria. I think that in the game, they're being pretty participatory. They grant blessings and two entry into their particular realms. Dwayna seems to like giving quests out when she's paying attention. This is probably a change from less recent history, though.

Quintus Antonius
08-07-2006, 07:36
One question I have to ask: If the Tyrian gods are sufficiently powerful, does it really matter if they're literally gods or not? I mean, the distinction may be completely irrelevant.

To a relatively powerless person, the distinction is largely irrelevent. "They can control my soul, and kick my butt around the multiverse, worshipping seems safer than questioning"; but to a race that is beginning to become aware of themselves at new levels and starts to move from faith and begins to seek equal power, this may be very important. Look at the Tablets of Janthir, many can be interperted as describing the Mursaat's transformation from believing in the power of faith, to seeking to control the power behind that faith.

Think of it in a Maslow's Heirarchy-type way. When the Mursaat were still a culture that had to worry about food, and clothing, and reproduction, and things that were largely out of their control, they didn't question the Old Gods godhood, but once they Ascended and found the means to control more and more, they began to question more and more, and eventually, end up trying to seek control over higher powers.



Of course, I don't really have any ideas as to why the gods left Tyria. I think that in the game, they're being pretty participatory. They grant blessings and two entry into their particular realms. Dwayna seems to like giving quests out when she's paying attention. This is probably a change from less recent history, though.

Sounds daedric doesn't it? Conjure a daedra, get a quest. That aside, we don't get our quests directly from the gods, but rather, from representatives of the gods. It seems that the gods are intentionally isolating themselves, when before, they were so openly among the people. I'd say they are hiding, but don't want to lose their status as deities all together.

Ranger Nietzsche
10-07-2006, 21:27
The Gods may have just left Tyria because they were done with it. In the Temple of the Ages one of the random priests/acolytes mentions that after Tyria, the Gods went to make many, many other worlds across the multiverse. Think about it. The largest problem with Tyria was the intelligent Races and Magic. With magic sealed in the bloodstones BUT still somewhat present in Tyria, the races could be kept in a constant balance of killing each other and no one gaining supreme control.

Then the Gods left to make Earth, Nirn, and Ivalice :P

As for what makes a God a God that is entirely dependent on individual opinions. For some people, Gods can die. For others they cannot.

As for the supreme omnipotence question (a rock so big he can't lift it etc.) My favorite answer was provided by a philosophy Professor of mine:
Can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it? simply, No.
One definition of omnipotence is that it means you can do anything that can be done. So, something that is by definition a contradiction and can't be done does not fall within the abiliies of the omnipotent. Just like God can't make a Tautology false, he can't make a contradiction true.

Volitar
14-07-2006, 03:52
The other day I went on a minor expedition into The Underworld to check out the temple at the end of the area where the Smite Crawlers roam. I found something interesting in the temple.

In this picture you can see what appears to be the Eye of Janthir. Now, why is the Eye of Janthir in The Underworld?

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5124/eyejan21ri.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eyejan21ri.jpg)

I'm pretty stumped here for why the symbol for the Mursaat is located in the realm of Grenth.

Mularc Templare
14-07-2006, 05:46
Voltair, your post would perfectly fit in with Quintus' theory/hypothosis. The Mursaat emblems could appear in the Underworld because that structure is their own. It just requires a slightly different view of the UW/FoW.

Instead of thinking of them as mystical realms, think of them as seperate worlds. Alright, they do hold "sway" over much of the lives of normal people in Tyria, but still, they are other worlds none the less. The Mursaat could have built that structure when they still worshipped the Old Gods.

I know its just speculation, but we don't have a timeframe for when Grenth overthrew Duhmm do we? Could it be that the Mursaat found the secret not by subtle means through Lord Ordan, but maybe witness Grenth's overthrow themselves?

Mularc

Ranger Nietzsche
15-07-2006, 21:31
one common theory about that stuff is that the underworld reflects elements of the real world in its structure. there are alos a lot of runes in the UW only found elsewhere in the crystal desert

fang
19-07-2006, 08:09
A great read and theory Quintus. The entire thought of where he must've hid the portals is great.

spayced
19-07-2006, 20:02
Mursaat once worshipped the Old Gods, as evidenced by the temples throughout Tyria bearing strong cultural ties to the Mursaat
Could you please elaborate? I’m not sure what you mean.


Why does a god need an army?
The gods remind me of greek gods. In that they have special powers, but have weaknesses as well, and are not pillars of perfection. They are able to make mistakes, and can have changing agendas and emotions just like a human. These gods are not immortal in the invulnerable sense, just that they do not age. And it is possible for a mortal to become a god somehow. I think the Elonians knew this as well as the Mursatt. Because of the way elonians were ‘greedy’ it makes me believe they didn’t want to ascend for reason of ‘going to heaven and being peaceful’ but more for reasons of power.


Now the Mursaat were attempting to hide their secrets, just as the Old Gods had done before them; if successful, they would be gods in the eyes of millions, just as the Old Gods before them, and their journey would be one step closer to completion.

Why are the Titans locked away? Because they are powerful enough to challenge the daedra Old Gods, and because they, like the Mursaat, become dieties in the eyes of a race of Tyrian creatures (the Charr

I think you made an important discovery to explain where the power of the gods comes from. In forgotten realms it works much the same way. It comes directly from the people who worship them. Worship gives them real power. This also explains why gods choose to give their followers power; to reward them and keep their business. In other words, if they had no worshippers, they would not be a god. If they suddenly had millions of worshippers, they would become a god, even if they were not originally.


Enter Glint and the Flameseeker Prophecies. It is no secret Glint is a serpent of the Old Gods, in fact, she was created with the Forgotten to "keep balance". I theorize that this balance is in reality the secret of the Old Gods. When someone gets too close to the truth, Glint or the Forgotten intervene to prevent it.
Can someone clarify something for me? Do the forgotten serve glint?

I loved you post, I hope we can see more in the future.

Seyfert
19-07-2006, 21:02
Quote:
Mursaat once worshipped the Old Gods, as evidenced by the temples throughout Tyria bearing strong cultural ties to the Mursaat

Could you please elaborate? I’m not sure what you mean.

he said this because the mursaat built temples to the old gods throughout tyria like the one in the Falls and Lonars Pass

Ranger Nietzsche
19-07-2006, 21:26
Can someone clarify something for me? Do the forgotten serve glint?



Yes, yes they do. Source: in game NPC chatter.

Mularc Templare
20-07-2006, 08:16
To help define it a bit further:- here is the actual text in game.


Originally Posted by Siliss Yassith (In-Game Source)

I sense that you have come to me seeking Forgotten wisdom. Know then that we Forgotten were the first race to rule Tyria. During our reign, the world was at peace until your people came, until the humans came. We could not compete with the savage humans and were slowly driven into this desert where we met our future master, the great crystal dragon Glint.

<snip>

Hope that helps,

Mularc

Blazing Liger
20-07-2006, 18:20
Wow, awesome theory, Quintus. It certainly forces you to think and look at everything from a different perspective.

I must say though, with all that's been said, the Old Gods are starting to sound more and more like the Ori from Stargate SG-1 every minute... Worship gives them power, they give little bits back to keep the people happy... All the while keeping the secret of ascending to that level of power from them.

EDIT: But then again, that doesn't make the Mursaat the good guys either, just makes them maybe the lesser of two evils. After all, if they just replace the old gods and keep the secret of their power hidden as their predecessors did, are they really any better?

Seyfert
21-07-2006, 03:40
I must say though, with all that's been said, the Old Gods are starting to sound more and more like the Ori from Stargate SG-1 every minute... Worship gives them power, they give little bits back to keep the people happy... All the while keeping the secret of ascending to that level of power from them.

exactly what i was about to say!

Quintus Antonius
24-07-2006, 03:40
Could you please elaborate? I’m not sure what you mean.

You simply do not take the time, effort, and resources to build an elaborate temple to one or more gods simply for decoration. Taken with the context, and what we know and can infer of the Mursaat from sources I've cited in my lectures and papers on the Mursaat, I'm almost certain these temples are indicative of some manner of worship.



I think you made an important discovery to explain where the power of the gods comes from. In forgotten realms it works much the same way. It comes directly from the people who worship them. Worship gives them real power. This also explains why gods choose to give their followers power; to reward them and keep their business. In other words, if they had no worshippers, they would not be a god. If they suddenly had millions of worshippers, they would become a god, even if they were not originally.


Wow, awesome theory, Quintus. It certainly forces you to think and look at everything from a different perspective.

I must say though, with all that's been said, the Old Gods are starting to sound more and more like the Ori from Stargate SG-1 every minute... Worship gives them power, they give little bits back to keep the people happy... All the while keeping the secret of ascending to that level of power from them.

EDIT: But then again, that doesn't make the Mursaat the good guys either, just makes them maybe the lesser of two evils. After all, if they just replace the old gods and keep the secret of their power hidden as their predecessors did, are they really any better?

It may also be that the Old Gods are like the Q from Star Trek. The Q were at one time the Iconians (the people who built the Guardian of Forever, for those of you who are familiar with TOS). Eventually, they ascend, but the ruins of their corporeal culture can be found all over the universe, yet they aren't attributed to the Q because they were the Q yet. In the Star Trek universe, it is even revealed that the ancient Q predecessors were the inspiration for the Greeks and their gods. (John de Lancie's Q (from TNG, DS9, and Voy) was actually Prometheis. He was chained to a rock for giving cavemen fire. He says he did that because it was funny to see the first caveman try to use fire as a "hat".) Later, the Q masqueraded as gods to many different races just for the heck of it, until they eventually assumed their current continuum that has a non-interference policy, except for a few troublemakers anyway. The Q are still ascending too. q, Q and Lady Q's son, is said to be the "next step" in the evolution of the Continuum.

Food for thought.



I loved you post, I hope we can see more in the future.

That's more or less a given. :tongue:

Tuor Son Of Huor
08-08-2006, 13:42
The final straw came when the Mursaat set themselves up as gods in Kryta. Now the Mursaat were attempting to hide their secrets, just as the Old Gods had done before them; if successful, they would be gods in the eyes of millions, just as the Old Gods before them, and their journey would be one step closer to completion.

Now the gods call upon Glint, who they have locked away in a sand grain so that she too, a powerful creature, cannot threaten them too much. Glint formulates a plan and names it the Flameseeker Prophecies, a grand scheme to halt the Mursaat's romp towards dietism, and to restore the "balance" of Old God worship in Tyria, and "expose" the Mursaat.

I am unsure whether or not this was pointed out before, but there is a tragic flaw in this line of reasoning:

The Flameseeker prophecies were foretold by Glint 800 years PRIOR to the Searing and the fall of Orr. Saul D'elessio was the founder of the White Mantle (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Saul_D%27Alessio) and did so less than 50 years before the searing[/link]; when the charr attacked the 3 kingdoms of Humans in Tyria.

This would rule out the possibility that Glint cooked up the [url=http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Flameseeker_Prophecies]flameseeker prophecies (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Searing) in response to Mursaat worship, as you have pointed out here.

The only way that such a conjecture would work was if Glint simply lied about foreseeing the prophecies 800 years ago - something i find VERY hard to believe.

Quintus Antonius
08-08-2006, 17:18
The only way that such a conjecture would work was if Glint simply lied about foreseeing the prophecies 800 years ago - something i find VERY hard to believe.

I meant that she had "foreseen" the Prophecies, when in reality, it was just a backup plan that had been in the works since the Mursaat began the whole trip towards godhood. Once they set themselves up as gods, then the Prophecies go active, and begin to work against the Mursaat.

Tuor Son Of Huor
09-08-2006, 09:56
So your saying that the Flameseeker Prophecy was a contingency plan to control any usurpers challenging the Old Gods?

I dont think there was a purpose to the prophecies; Glint was simply predicting the future.

There is a difference between a Plan and a Prophecy:

A plan requires first hand intervention at some point.
A prophecy plays out like a screenplay, one that you have no hand in influencing.

I'm afraid I think youre stretching it a bit with the contingency plan.

Quintus Antonius
09-08-2006, 16:23
So, Glint interfering and directly influencing events doesn't count as first hand intervention?

Look at the facts, Glint has a cult of dwarves, thousands of people worship her, and even more know about the Prophecies, including the parties involved, a lot of her motives are questionable as well. If she had just seen something and then kept quiet, then maybe; but it is almost as if she uses this "prophecy" as a launchpad to gain fame.

I think people don't want to believe Glint is evil or at least not a saint, because of this whole view of dragons as "awesome". I was with a guildie completing the bonus for the Dragon's Lair, and she actually said she had trouble believing Glint was evil simply because Glint was a dragon.

But I digress, I don't think Glint is a big part of the point I'm trying to make at any rate, and there is a whole topic discussing all of this elsewhere. I do feel Glint has some sort of vendetta againts the Mursaat, where or how that arose, I don't know.

Tuor Son Of Huor
09-08-2006, 19:08
So, Glint interfering and directly influencing events doesn't count as first hand intervention?

As far as I know, Glint's role in the flameseeker prophecies was limited to:

Making us fight thru forgotten to have an audience with her
Showing up after we beat the Lich to tell us to run to our boats
Telling us to kill the Titans after we arrived back in Droknar's forge.

If she directly interfered i.e actually got up off her cushy butt to help us out, then I have not heard of it.

But you're right: we are digressing. I enjoyed your presentation of "the odran code" but felt that by giving credence to a conspiracy theory like this one, you were detracting from the main body of the work, and in the end, reducing its worth as a piece of Lore.

Kelen
21-08-2006, 22:04
Quintus, this is a very intruiging theory.

It must be said now that at the moment I am going through a very Druid-centred phase, and through out this Lore thread, I have been trying to read in what it could mean for my Druids.

The following is a quote from my own post:

"I feel that the Druids are a race of beings that have realised a certain truth;
that once disconnected from its physical state of being (be it tree, plant, human or animal), it is only a part of the One Spirit, which we may call Nature or Gaia for simplicity.
"We are nothing" implies that once disembodied, there is no sense of identity or individuality. "We are one" implies that once disembodied, each of us becomes a part of the whole; Gaia.
The Druids were a race of people who realised this. Separating themselves from the trivialities of human existence, with wars and suffering, they instead became spirits, became a part of the One Spirit.
Because this means that they are a being or entity that is continually refreshed by new spirits, time is of no concept to them. "Time moves neither forward nor backward, but is the lens of perception" implies that time is only an illusion known to those in the physical state still, who age and wither.

I feel that this is what the Druids have discovered; that as spirits, they become a part of Nature, part of a whole. Only when we discover this can we really feel free from life's suffering, pain, grief and overall brief span."

And the following text is what the druids say at their meeting at the base of the waterfall. I refer to this in my above reasoning:
Line 1 "We are nothing. We are one."
Refrain "All that exists is all that must be."
Line 2 "To be is a disguise. To act is an illusion."
Refrain "All that exists is all that must be."
Line 3 "We are renewed by these waters. We are unchanged by these waters."
Refrain "All that exists is all that must be."
Line 4 "Time moves neither forward nor backward, but is the lens of perception."
Refrain "All that exists is all that must be."
Line 5 "The Spirit beholds the truth the eye cannot see."

As you may or may not be able to see, I believe that the Druids came a certain distance towards understanding a fundemental truth about life, death and the world.

However, in light of this new theory, it seems the druids may not understand the whole truth. Firstly, it is an Avatar of Dwayna that sends you to meet these druids. Secondly, the druids were originally thought to be a race of people dedicated to Melandru. As such, read the following:

And it was that a tribe of godless humans wandered the land. Where camped did they lay waste, senselessly destroying everything nearby.

And so the tribe set out to find another camp, when suddenly sprouted a wall of thorny branches, which blocked their exit.

Then saith Ewan, leader of the tribe, Know ye our ways. Whosoever does magic in this tribe shall be put to death.

Yet none comes forward. Then, from the earth grows forth a large tree, and unfurling its branches, reveals the upper torso of a woman. Saith She, I am Melandru, Mother of earth and nature. Henceforth I bind ye to these lands. When they suffer, so shall ye suffer.

And as She saith, so was it done. From their limbs sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees. Then was Ewan and his tribe converted, and became they stewards of nature.

-- Scriptures of Melandru: 48 BE

That was taken from a Melandru statue. Though the link may be tenuous, these humans may have been the first druids (Melandru's Avatar is a Druid).

This is certainly interesting in my eyes. For me, the druids remain the most enlightened beings in Tyria. I believe they are the closest to truly understanding the way the world functions. What is weird, however, is that the Old Gods still feature prominently in the Druids' way of life. So either the Old Gods certainly hold some godlike-sway over everything, or the Druids still have yet to realise that the Old Gods are not all-powerful. If the second is true, why haven't the Gods dealt with the Druids, a race of beings apparently enlightened with the truth. In fact, the Avatar of Dwayna even directs you to the Druids, as though hoping that what they know will rub off on you.

Thoughts anyone?

Quintus Antonius
21-08-2006, 22:07
It does seem that whenever a group of people denies the Old Gods, that the Old Gods strike back. Some may call this vengence, I call it jealousy. Whenever someone begins to gain power, the Old Gods move to silence them. I find that interesting.

Kelen
21-08-2006, 22:21
It does seem that whenever a group of people denies the Old Gods, that the Old Gods strike back. Some may call this vengence, I call it jealousy. Whenever someone begins to gain power, the Old Gods move to silence them. I find that interesting.

Sorry, I was awkward and editted my post :rolleyes:

My reasoning was this:

If the people were truly godless, that may only be a threat in that they do not believe. There is no evidence that the people were at all enlightened however. More importantly, the group had banned magic. Surely any group that bans magic would appear perfect for a god; no threat, no fuss. The only slight glitch is that they don't believe in any gods. But to elevate this unthreatening group to the role of nature's protectors is surely riskier than letting them continue. This grants them powers and understanding that mortals should not be allowed to access. It's practically handing the group the weapons needed to take the Gods out. If the Gods were that concerned about this group, giving them additional power and knowledge would not be the ideal way to tackle them.

Thoughts?

Ranger Nietzsche
23-08-2006, 17:27
well im not sure if turning them into stewards of nature is essentially giving them power and knowledge.

think about it. if your a tribe of godless humans who squander and hurt the earth, all of a sudden being bound to the will of a god in what is essentially eternal servitude would seem a punishment, especially since now if the land suffers you do as well (think how much deforestation would hurt).

more likely melandru did the classic wise nature God thing of punishing peopel in such a way that if they had time eventually they would realize a truth about themselves or the world and become enlightened and better for their punishment.

for a pop culture reference think V for Vendetta.

Laibeus Lord
30-09-2006, 08:05
Very interesting.

I hope you don't mind me linking the Odran Code to the Lord Odran=Abaddon theory I have :p (I know you don't agree with Lord Odran=Abaddon).

Eratimus
24-10-2006, 12:05
Let me know if this is article is ready for its inclusion to the 9th Ed.

Quintus Antonius
24-10-2006, 14:00
Yeah it's good. I can't guarantee it's 100% right, mind you, it's only a theory. That said, this was written before Nightfall was known. Nightfall could potentially make or break the theory here. That's the case with all science though, thus is the nature of theories.

Quintus Antonius
27-10-2006, 01:16
Within the pages of the Nightfall Manuscripts, some new evidence has been revealed regarding just what Odran may have been doing in the Mists.

If you examine the timeline, we see that Odran's venture into the Mists occurs right as Palawa Joko's conflict with Elona begins. The European Prophecies Manuscripts say Odran went to seek the aide of the gods for some unknown conflict. Could it be that Joko's war with Turai Ossa almost brought about Nightfall, and that Odran sought the aid of the gods in preventing this? I believe this is a possibility.

Laibeus Lord
27-10-2006, 04:30
Within the pages of the Nightfall Manuscripts, some new evidence has been revealed regarding just what Odran may have been doing in the Mists.

So what is Odran doing in the Mists?

I'm really curious lolz... I still have to wait 3-weeks for my CE box to arrive, so no manuscript for me until then. (Just got my key emailed for now.)

Quintus Antonius
27-10-2006, 04:32
Well, we know he was going to seek audience with the gods "like Doric before him". We don't know why though.

Laibeus Lord
27-10-2006, 04:39
Well, we know he was going to seek audience with the gods "like Doric before him". We don't know why though.

Ah got it. So it's just simply the war in Elona... very interesting. Especially if he's one of the Anti-Abaddon, and the war may bring about Nightfall back then.

Hmm... now it's our turn.

Quintus Antonius
27-10-2006, 05:10
If he was indeed Mursaat, it is likely he was "anti-Abaddon".

maleki
27-10-2006, 05:36
I dont know if this was discussed but I believe that maybe the secret of the gods is worship. If you think about it, when the gods themselves are given worship, they seem to empower those around them but in reality maybe they themselves are empowered. A few examples. The mursaat in the begging according to this theory let the gods boss them around and tell them to guard this door but as they gained more power by having the people of kryta worship them, they challenged the gods themselves. In one particular lore story, A group of soldiers pray to balthazar to give them courage. Balthazar then comes to their aid. Much is the lore on the gods. The Charr couldnt beat the tyrians but it seems through worship they allowed their hidden deities the power to sear ascalon. The same is the case I think with Abaddon. He was unable to break free of where the gods put him because the gods took away his power base...they all but erased his memory from the world. So without worshipers, he wasnt able to do anything. But with a cult of worshipers he slowly gained enough power to break in to the world.

So I pose this question. If there are no people praising lets say Dwayna for healing. Then does Dwayna have any power in this realm. No one is calling her power, those none of her magicks are flowing through the world. I believe this is how you weaken a god enough to kill it. Menzies is battling balthazar and creating doubt in those that worship him...those weakening his faith and power. There has definitly been a influx of people not believing in the old gods, which could explain their weakening. Doubt of Post-Searing Ascalon, Kryta worships new gods, Cantha has fallen in to dis-array and doubt and some have even turned to new gods, as well there seems to be opposition brewing in Elona, and the destruction of orr.

I think what happened is that the gods left the world to try and keep people from finding out the truth and to possibly become immortallized as a group of immortals who have their fingers woven into everything. It is much harder to question things when there isnt someone to question. The praise works so it must be infallible.But I think that they dropped the ball and are desperatly trying to regain their control over the entire world.

I dont know if anyone ever posted in the other forum about why we cant go to the other realms such as that of dwayna.

I pose this second theory that the gods may also be strengthed by what the represent. The world has been thrown in to chaos by all that has gone on. Abaddon is seemingly the god of chaos and gaining a lot of strength. We havent seen the gods powers displayed as blatantly as we see abaddon working his magicks. But I will also say that the rise in deaths and violence may be the only things making balthazar and grenth strong enough to defend their realms from ursuppers. I fear that the other gods realms may have already been overthrown.

Barinthus
27-10-2006, 13:42
Re: gods realms being overthrown

That's possible but how do you explain the fact that their avatars still appear and they still can bestow blessings upon you?

Gmr Leon
27-10-2006, 22:58
If their realms are overthrown it doesn't exactly mean their avatars or messengers would be gone. Grenth's realm is on the brink of being overthrown with the reapers locked up and etc. yet his avatar still appears.

Sarah Frost
10-11-2006, 21:56
Just a question on this... has anyone read Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality set? Grenth killing Dhuum and taking over the Realm of Death from a usurper... sounds like the Changing of the Office of Death in On a Pale Horse If the Tyrian Gods are "Offices" as in the Incarnations books, could we be seeing a changing of the gaurd? Each "Office" had it's own unique way of changing holders.


From their limbs sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees. Then was Ewan and his tribe converted, and became they stewards of nature.

-- Scriptures of Melandru: 48 BE


That really sounds more like the Wardens from the Ecovald Forest than the Druids of Magumma...

aptaleonII
10-11-2006, 22:13
and within the temples built by the Mursaat (further supporting my theory of a Mursaat Odran).
I don't think that the architecture and the material is basis enough to assume that the mursaat built the temples (you refer to the temple of grenth in Lornar's pass?), as that architecture is also present at the battle isles, and it is a large stretch to say that the mursaat went and built temples in so many far flung places.

Quintus Antonius
10-11-2006, 22:36
Sarah Frost, there is an edit button active for one hour after posting. If you need to make a second post after this, please use that instead of double posting. Thank you.

***

Read the Manuscripts. Odran hid his portals in the most treacherous and far-flung regions of Tyria. The Manuscripts also say he used the portals to travel to all parts of Tyria. I believe the door behind the statue is also the same door in the Temple of the Unseen.

aptaleonII
10-11-2006, 22:48
i did read that, and i think it refers simply to places like the crystal desert. what i meant was that there is no evidence at all to support the idea that Mursaat went to places such as the battle isles, or that Lord Odran is a Mursaat. it simply has no basis; his being a Mursaat is never mentioned.

Quintus Antonius
10-11-2006, 23:41
Has anyone ever mentioned I'm hispanic? Does that make me less hispanic?

If it refers to places like the Crystal Desert, why do we find no portals there? Also, why do known examples of Mursaat influence and architecture, such as Mantle armor, and structures in the Temple of the Unseen, match places such the the Temples I say Odran hid his portals.

Granted, I could be wrong about all of it. But for now, evidence indicates I'm not. Until someone from ANet says something, or someone actually comes forward with evidence, rather than just an "OMG YOU SO WRONG!" argument, I'm not troubled.

Durza the Shadeking
11-11-2006, 07:26
Quick Correction, Quintus. There is a grand total of ONE (whoo!) portal in the Crystal Desert. (Now it is corrupted by Abbadon).

aptaleonII
11-11-2006, 14:36
i'm not trying to flame here, honestly, and i'm sorry if i come across that way. sure, you could be right. but it shouldn't be posted as fact until it is, that is all i am saying. There is a portal in the crystal desert, or at least there was; the tomb of the primeval kings. all i mean is this: sure, you COULD be right, but you also might not be.

Quintus Antonius
11-11-2006, 16:46
Quick Correction, Quintus. There is a grand total of ONE (whoo!) portal in the Crystal Desert. (Now it is corrupted by Abbadon).

That particular portal wasn't in the Mursaat fashion, and so far as we know, it was built by Elonians. That's why I didn't count it.

aptaleonII
11-11-2006, 17:10
The story of Lord Odran regards this particular portal! the story does say how the restless spirits that once opposed Lord Odran himself began to pit team against team of the humans that had found his portal. The only places this went on were at the arenas accessed through the tomb of the primeval kings, and now at Heroe's Ascent.

Quintus Antonius
11-11-2006, 17:17
True. I suppose it is possible he made it. But it may have been the Heroes' Ascent portal, that one is exactly the same fashion as the other portals I've attributed to the Mursaat.

I also believe that the portal he used to originally get into the Rift is the Wizard's Tower in Pre-Searing Ascalon. There is a Mursaat-esque armor there, and the tower itself is built like a "stargate", with a control tower at the top, and a big empty area in the middle, that almost exactly mimics the smaller modern Mursaat portals we see them use.

Rob Van Der Sloot
21-11-2006, 12:24
Getting back to the original post:


You see, the "gods" of Tyria are not gods at all, but rather daedra, but more so, while they are immortal, they are not invincible. With the Mursaat poking closer and closer to the truth, perhaps even in danger of becoming daedra themselves, and the threat of the Titans as well as internal struggles growing, the pantheon of Tyrian gods assigned the Mursaat the task of guarding Komalie.

The fact that Kormir could simply take Abaddon's place shows that indeed the 5 gods are not gods at all. Further proof that your theory is correct.

Quintus Antonius
21-11-2006, 13:53
I think my favorite proof is that the Primeval Armor is quite clearly daedric =P

Zaa Nayazu
21-11-2006, 16:13
Let's begin with Lord Odran, the Mage Lord and first man to access the Rift. According to the European Guild Wars Manuscripts, Lord Odran was successful, like King Doric before him, in finding and speaking to the gods. What this implies, is that Odran's race was in danger, and also that Odran's discussion with the gods somehow transformed the nature of his race (just like Doric's blood sealing the Bloodstones and transforming parts of the human race into a subgroup known as the Chosen). I believe that this is the instance that the Mursaat assumed their role as the Guardians of the Door of Komalie.


I dont think anyone has pointed this out, but If this is when the Mursaat bacame Mursaat, like I think you imply, and they were charged with Guarding the Door of Komali, I have 2 Questions.

1. Who was Guarding the Door before them?
By the Timeline Odran enters the Rift in 851 AE. That would be about 851 years after Abbadon is sent to RoT.

2. Who were the Mursaat Before this? Its Kinda hard to make an entired advanced race in just about 200 years, wich is about the time they first appeared, near 1070 AE.

Sorry in advanced if this has been discussed before.

ShadowmageIX
21-11-2006, 16:15
Quick thought on deities.

The notion that a God is omnipotent and indestructible is a purely judeo-christian/monotheist notion that you cannot, and should not, apply to pantheistic (fantasy) settings, where there is a large precedent for deities to be:

-Tremendously powerful
-Ageless and nearly impervious to damage
-Not indestructible
-Prone to fratri/parti/matri/infanticide
-Enjoy stealing eachother's influence over the mortal world


If you're an average peasant, such beings are truly Gods in the sense that -to you- they are effectively indestructible.

That in no way applies that being of power on a different scale than yours cannot harm them in some fashion (either directly or indirectly).

Just my tuppence.

ElementalistKiyoshiRyuu
03-12-2006, 11:10
Hmm your theory made for an interesting read & you certainly made some valid points in it.

auto ckc
14-03-2007, 15:33
hmmm, just a little thing i heard from another forum, sorry if im messing around too much on this somewhat serious thread, but I would like to make a connection from tyria and elona

lets take the avatars of the dervish.

the guides/books say that because the humans(or whatever they are) were devout followers of the 5 "gods", the acolytes were given the power to transform into the gods right? - this being BEFORE you cap their elite skill and thus use them as well- well, if the acolytes really WERE that devoted to the gods and that was all, then that would have explained everything...to guild wars logic off course.... but now think about this: the acolytes serve varesh to some degree right? and if varesh was in cahoots with abaddon, why would the gods have granted their apparently "fake" followers part of their godly power?
there are several things i may believe but here are just 2 im thinking really happened.

auto's conspiracy theory #1 = the gods arent all that cracked up to be, and even though they are somewhat more powerful then normal, they are not ALL powerful, seeing as how Abaddon apparently has the power to hide certain things from the gods. and being this, then quintus' theory has been at least 99% verified, because if false followers could get SOME of the gods power, then would the mursaat, with all their experience and knowledge, would most likely be able to get the gods power sometime very soon *hint*ch 4~6*hint*.

#2 = if the gods ARE all-powerful, even if they are daedra, then wouldnt this mean that they probably have it in for the "heroes" of the game? seeing as how in all 3 games so far, the gods have only intervened when it suited them the best and sadly, when it made us have a big disadvantage. i.e. where the F**k were they during the charr invasion/searing. excluding the envoys in factions when shiro killed the party in vizunah square.(though they arent really gods i guess...) then if thats the case, i believe the gods are trying to reshape the guild wars world into a different image, by getting rid of everything that may become stronger then them, not only the mursaat, not only shiro, not only varesh, but the players as well. take prince rurik for example..... dead ruric ftw? rofl. wasnt he supposedly the "hero" of his time? meant to save his people and restore the balance to humans?

ty for taking your time to read this :P

Quintus Antonius
14-03-2007, 15:36
Well, every time someone pulls this theory out again, I have to give this disclaimer:

Some of the information in my intial theory has been disproven, while some of it has been proven, and some still remains a mystery. Keep in mind that this theory was developed before we even knew there was a Chapter 3 (Nightfall) being released. It was developed and released near the release of Factions, so just keep that in mind when reading through the thread. It is a bit outdated, but I think, and this may be just me tooting my own horn, it is still relevent.

Minionman
14-03-2007, 18:08
hmmm, just a little thing i heard from another forum, sorry if im messing around too much on this somewhat serious thread, but I would like to make a connection from tyria and elona

lets take the avatars of the dervish.

the guides/books say that because the humans(or whatever they are) were devout followers of the 5 "gods", the acolytes were given the power to transform into the gods right? - this being BEFORE you cap their elite skill and thus use them as well- well, if the acolytes really WERE that devoted to the gods and that was all, then that would have explained everything...to guild wars logic off course.... but now think about this: the acolytes serve varesh to some degree right? and if varesh was in cahoots with abaddon......

A couple of ways to explain this:

The gods don't just accept devotion from humans, human allied tengu, etc., they accept devotion from everyone, and since there are a lot of creatures around, the gods probably can't keep trakc of everyone who worships them and what they were doing.

In addition, given Varesh's ruling style and the value of loyalty above all else in the Kournan army, it's easily possible that the acolytes would either not know about Varesh's plans and abaddon, or only know a bit and not analyze too much (as Morghan did.). The acolytes would continue using the avatars without a second though as to what the powers related to and how it competed with what Varesh was doing, and the gods never explained this too them, because they would likely not notice what was going on enough to care.


Other magic spells have also apparently become seperated from the gods, so for instance, a monk healing someone is not using the power of dwayna, they're using their own power and skills that originally came from dwayna, but are now usable by everyone. A similar thing probably happened with the avatar magic.


Signets of capture are also a game mechanic that doesn't impact the story. (Nowhere does anyone say, for example, "We need to enter the Realm of Torment and steal the margonite signets of capture." the bosses that use the skills are kind of arbitrary, so having powerful kournan soldiers using avatars makes about as much sense as anywhere else the avatars could go.)

Quintus Antonius
14-03-2007, 20:14
I personally don't feel the Cap Sig is a game mechanic. If the Mursaat Inquisator can pull thoughts directly from someone's head, I don't have problems believing in a magical piece of jewelry (signets are jewelry after all) that extracts the memories out of something and helps the user learn from it. Other games have magical scrolls, or books, a cap sig is no different.

Minionman
14-03-2007, 20:43
It is a mechanic in the sense that it makes little sense that the only way to learn a particular ability is to watch an enemy use the ability and pull the knowledge for using it from them. (Which doesn't explain how the powerful enemy learned the ability, or why certain common enemies can learn the ability normally but not you.)

Skill learning in general is also kind of a mechanic in the sense that real life people wouldn't be buying skills, they would have to learn the skills over some time, the skills don't work exactly the same for everybody, and most people would come up with twists or combinations of skills.

(the main issue from all of this was that the use of particular skills often has little to do with background, and the avatars could be the same.)

Quintus Antonius
14-03-2007, 21:13
Well, we are flirting with the line here. I'm not fond of dismissing things as a game mechanic, when there is an acceptable explanation within the in-game universe.