Status of Post-Searing Grawl-Charr Relations

[moenbase]

Another interesting thing to be found in Pre-Searing, they somehow communicated with the Grawl, does that mean their languages are similar? From all we've seen the Grawl aren't civilized, they don't have built structures, and they just seem to know how to make bits of clothing. I would say they probably take weapons from killed humans or what they find.

Well, in that area just outside Surmia. We see a lot of Grawl patrols, and possibly with ranks. Ulodyte's, the Monk's are in (almost?) every group we see.
They also gather in that big ascalonian structure. They are intelligent in a pretty primitive way I think.
But I wouldn't call it un-civilized.
They don't build structures because they probably don't need them anyway. They have clans/groups in the most treacherous places.
I also read on Guildwiki:

"Sometimes (randomly?) players can witness strange things happening in Regent Valley: Groups of Grawl Petitioners (monks and warriors) are making a procession towards King's Watch. Along the way they will run into groups of Grawl Heretics. The Heretics are hostile to the Petitioners as well as "normal" Grawl and Grawl Ulodytes, so they fight each other, and the Heretics are killed.

Eventually the Petitioners will gather at the Statue of Melandru near King's Watch, where a Grawl High Priest is waiting for them. They stand in concentric circles, with the High Priest in the center, the inner circle being monks, the outer circle being warriors. "

I haven't seen it though. But it does describe some kind of religious, and therfor culturized, and most likely even civilized species.
Well, unless you can only be civilized when building things though. :]

[Gmr Leon]

Well that definitely proves me wrong about the Grawl being uncivilized. I've never witnessed that before myself,but I remember seeing them at the statue of Melandru with a few others. I guess the Grawl aren't as stupid as some of us thought..:shocked:

[Quintus Antonius]

Yeah, that's another assumption, which gets us into trouble. People assumed the Charr were unintelligent, when they weren't, and it led to a complacency that caused the Searing.

Just because something doesn't look or sound human, doesn't mean it isn't intelligent or capable of, for lack of a better phrase, completely handing us our rears.

[Docho]

"Sometimes (randomly?) players can witness strange things happening in Regent Valley: Groups of Grawl Petitioners (monks and warriors) are making a procession towards King's Watch. Along the way they will run into groups of Grawl Heretics. The Heretics are hostile to the Petitioners as well as "normal" Grawl and Grawl Ulodytes, so they fight each other, and the Heretics are killed.

Eventually the Petitioners will gather at the Statue of Melandru near King's Watch, where a Grawl High Priest is waiting for them. They stand in concentric circles, with the High Priest in the center, the inner circle being monks, the outer circle being warriors

A small theory about this:

In pre-searing we see that the Grawl and Charr work together (or atleast the Grawl seem to help the Charr). In don't exactly know what Vatlaaw Doomtooth (the Charr ranger we defeat at the end of Pre-Searing) his mission was, but I think he was a scout/spy. There is also a mission in Pre-Searing that Grawl are attacking travellers in Green Hills county (if you are a warrior) (They are called Grawl invaders)

In Post-Searing there is suddenly no indication anymore of Charr and Grawl working together, which I find very odd. What my theory is, is that the Grawl helped the Charr because the Charr promised them to help them against the humans (or atleast something positive for the Grawl). What the Charr didn't tell the Grawl is that the Searing would happen. The Grawl don't help the Charr anymore because they feel cheated by the Charr because they ruined their lands. What we see at the statue of Melandru (she is the godess of nature) are Grawl who try to restore the lands af Ascalon. The Grawl try to undo the Searing and make create a green landscape again.

The Grawl heretics (if this theory could be true) are probably the ones who helped/help the charr and are now considered traitors by the othe Grawl.

[Quintus Antonius]

A small theory about this:

In pre-searing we see that the Grawl and Charr work together (or atleast the Grawl seem to help the Charr). In don't exactly know what Vatlaaw Doomtooth (the Charr ranger we defeat at the end of Pre-Searing) his mission was, but I think he was a scout/spy. There is also a mission in Pre-Searing that Grawl are attacking travellers in Green Hills county (if you are a warrior) (They are called Grawl invaders)

In Post-Searing there is suddenly no indication anymore of Charr and Grawl working together, which I find very odd. What my theory is, is that the Grawl helped the Charr because the Charr promised them to help them against the humans (or atleast something positive for the Grawl). What the Charr didn't tell the Grawl is that the Searing would happen. The Grawl don't help the Charr anymore because they feel cheated by the Charr because they ruined their lands. What we see at the statue of Melandru (she is the godess of nature) are Grawl who try to restore the lands af Ascalon. The Grawl try to undo the Searing and make create a green landscape again.

The Grawl heretics (if this theory could be true) are probably the ones who helped/help the charr and are now considered traitors by the othe Grawl.

I like that theory. I'm not sure if it is true or not, but it seems plausible. I don't think the grawl are the most intelligent group of individuals, and I'd say they are at the statue in order to pray for a green landscape, that's how they seem themselves helping. Remember, we see a similar group of grawl attacking gargoyles. It seems that the grawl are trying to restore Ascalon, because it was their lands too, just in a different way.

[moenbase]

Well, if the Grawl really hated the Charr for destroying the area. I think they should stand up against the Charr in Post Searing.
For example, there is a big population of Grawl north of the Frontier Gate, which is close to the "Fires in the East" quest, in which we have to kill the Charr.
But why aren't the Grawl killing them as well?

Also. In the area of Old Ascalon, we can see fights between Stone Elementals and Grawl. And it really are the Grawl that are patrolling the area's to kill those Elementals.
So, unless those Elementals aren't a nature-type monsters, I find this really odd.
I'm not sure however if the Grawl are fighting those Stone Elementals in Pre-Searing as well. I don't think so though.

[Quintus Antonius]

The Grawl may be afraid of the Charr, or after the Searing, different factions of Grawl may have emerged, some challenging the Charr, some not.

In a battle, Charr verus Grawl, I wouldn't put too much faith in the Grawl. Odds are the Charr don't see them as a threat, and the Grawl have been inepted by the Charr.

It's important to remember two things: 1) We don't know why the Grawl helped the Charr, perhaps the Charr had the Grawl matron captive, or had something of value to the Charr; then again, it's also possible the Grawl were aligned for military purposes, either way, the Charr were definitely manipulating the Grawl. 2) There were two years between pre- and post-Searing, where the Grawl alliance with the Charr seem to have decayed; we don't know what happened in those years, perhaps there were major conflicts between Charr and Grawl that established the current attitude.

On an unrelated note, this thread is getting off-topic, so I'm going to split the posts on the Grawl and make them their own topic.

[Dark Helmet]

They could be the "pawns" of the Charr; sort of the lesser creatures used to gain a foothold into Ascalon. Perhaps certain bands were persuaded into serving Charr lords, and after the searing no longer had use for them.

[Quintus Antonius]

They could be the "pawns" of the Charr; sort of the lesser creatures used to gain a foothold into Ascalon. Perhaps certain bands were persuaded into serving Charr lords, and after the searing no longer had use for them.

To an extent, I agree. When I think of the grawl, I can't help but think of the Pakleds from Star Trek: The Next Generation, specifically the episode "Samaritan Snare" (if you are familiar with it)--seeking power, and, while posessing the limited intelliect to obtain some measure of it, not intelligent enough to avoid being manipulated, walking into traps, or to comprehend what "power" really is.

"We look for things; things that make us go. Can you make us go?" and the Charr answered, "Yes, and here's what your going to do..."

[moenbase]

I dont think we can say for sure that the Grawl helped the Charr though.
Yea they happen to increase in numbers right after the Searing. But that can easily be explained by the number of humans that were killed during the Searing and the following Charr attacking them.
Less humans, means that monsters that humans use to haunt on are now increasing in numbers.

We can also see that the Charr primary attacking the humans, they leave most other monsters unharmed;
Storm Riders, Grawl, Gargoyles, Elementals.
However, with Hydra's this seem to be a different matter. The hydra's roaming in Diessa Lowlands aren't attacked by the Charr. However, the Hydra's in Dragons Gullet are clearly fighting the Charr. I'm unfamiliar with that reason.

So basicly, both, Char and Grawl seems to make 'friends' with lots of monsters.

[Gmr Leon]

Here's my little theory on the Charr-Grawl relationship in Pre-Searing.

We know that Vatlaaw was going around searching for something and was trying to provoke the Grawl to help him destroy Ashford. Why Ashford? I would say probably for an easier place to bring in troops and attack the surrounding towns/cities. This also gives them an entrance into the Catacombs that would,if they had been successful,in their territory. So,I would say they were going to destroy Ashford and most likely make it into a Charr outpost.

If the Charr were successful with this it would also make it easier to find whatever it was they needed for the Searing spell.Though if you ask me,since they didn't know what it would do exactly. It would have been better to destroy Ashford,create a Charr outpost there,and then have an influx of troops through the Catacombs.Their alliance with the Grawl would then come in very good use if they had did what I just said.

We see many Grawl around the Green Hills County area and a few others that if they had an alliance with them not only would they have their troops they would have the Grawl helping them.

Though I also see this as a possibility,the Grawl and the Charr worked together to get in the Academy we find Vaatlaw in. The Grawl knew of an area and told Vaatlaw about it. The Charr Mages,seeing how they had what they needed for the spell that caused the Searing needed a distraction. The Grawl and a small team of Charr break into the Academy and by the time we had killed them it was to late to halt the Searing.

The Grawl didn't know they were being used as a simple distraction,but Vaatlaw did and tricked them.I see this as the point to where the Charr and Grawl alliance deteriorated into nothingness.

[Fira]

There is also a mission in Pre-Searing that Grawl are attacking travellers in Green Hills county (if you are a warrior) (They are called Grawl invaders)

What interest me was the fact they were called Grawl "invaders". I mean it's not like there arn't Grawl in Green Hills country in presearing. Why weren't they considered invaders so to speak?

My guess is that humans are invading the Grawl territory.

Well, humans being humans can't help but invade...I won't be surprised if humans didn't wipe out a huge amount of the Grawl in the Green Hills country for farmland, buildings, safe trading routes, etc...if I remember correctly some of the Grawl will attack you if you got them in your aggro bubble in Green Hills (forgot which ones exactly, but I'm guessing Heretics?). This could also be a motive for a fraction of the Grawl to look to the Charr for help.


So, unless those Elementals aren't a nature-type monsters, I find this really odd.

Yeah...I always found that really odd as well, I never did notice tension between Grawl and Elementals in Presearing. Maybe Elementals are really something animated by Geomentalists? I think I remember Aziure saying something about them in the camp outside Post Searing Ascalon...(will look more into it).

[Nikhera]

I have a feeling those Earth elementals were simply "spontaneusly" created after the Searing. It's possible that the very soil of Ascalon was somehow corrupted by the powers of the crystals that rained down during the Searing. Just a guess.

But that would be an explanation for why the Grawl would want to attack them.

[The Stiehl]

Except there are Earth Elementals in Pre-Searing...

In Post-Searing there are 2 Elementalist quests where all you do is kill 5 or 10 Hulking Stone Elementals, and even one where you kill an Elemental boss. One is to prove yourself worthy to Elementalist Aziure, the others are presumably for research given by Kendrick Redstaff.
So apparently, the order of Elementalists don't like the Earth Elementals either.

I have done all these quests today, in fact. I wasn't in the habit of taking pictures of every quest dialog box, though...

[Nikhera]

Mmkay, scratch that.

I've read from some quest, or some in-game lore that after the Searing, previously tame creatures have become hostile.

Remember back in pre-searing when you could walk past a devourer and just whistle? And then how annoying devourers were in post-sear?

Who's to say the same thing didn't happen to the Earth elementals? The Grawl would attack the hostile elementals in fear for their own safety. This could be the reason they also attack Gargoyles, etc. ^_^

This actually seems more plausible than the former theory :P

[fang]

With reguards to Dochos theory perhaps the heretics made loyalty with the charr behind the other bands of grawl's backs. This would make sense with the evidence of the normal grawl fighting the heretics during the ritual at kings watch.

Also my response to the grawl not defending themselves against the charr would be that the grawl must not have known the searing was coming. Therefor, all they knew was their land hand been tarnished by charr during the sear. This would lead to the grawl being afraid of the charr's "Powers" in their eyes to destroy things like their land.

I do believe the Grawl were the "pawns" of the charr to gain some sort of foothold into ascalon as stated by dark helmet. Moenbase's theory of the charr pro-dominantly attacking humans can be logcially reasoned due to the evidence that the grawl were just a pawn to give the charr an advantage over the humans. The charr wouldn't need to kill the grawl since the grawl would be afraid of them and they had the heretic for scapegoats. Thus concluding the attacks on humans rather than grawl, the pawns.

Overall I think the charr and Grawl heretics worked together but not the normal grawl. I even hypothesise that the heretics kept their loyalty to the charr a secret until Vatlaaw Doomtooth was killed and the sear began. (Although i don't know where he would tie into this whole mess).

Fang

[Fira]

I agree with the Heretic betraying the rest of the Grawl, from the rituals we see in King's Watch, it's obvious that Grawl is very spiritual and devoted to their god...maybe even to the rest of the old gods. And Heretic (looked it up on Dictionary.com) means:

"A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church."

well it says "Roman Catholic Church" there but..I believe you guys get the idea.

Heretics is probably a title given to them from the rest of the Grawl.

Any ideas why Charr would want Grawl as alies or "pawns" in the first place? I mean aside from the Grawl it didn't look like any other "race" ally themselves with the Charr...and Grawl isn't exactly a big threat to us humans anyways...

[Trojan]

Maybe Vatlaaw Doomtooth was manipulating/lying to the Grawl, using them for stalling/defence/searching.

He might of been searching for something inside of the Catacombs which the Charr needed to complete the Searing spell. We already know there's some pretty valuable stuff down there somewhere in the Post Searing Necromancer quest.
Possibly at the same time, he was using the possibly manipulated Grawl as 'intelligence' gatherers. Find out the most populated targets behind the wall and unknowingly 'paint' them for the Charr Searing crystals. The Charr could of simply said they were going to launch a conventional invasion/attack and they needed the most populated areas.

After they realized that they were duped by the Charr and Ascalon was blown to a magical hell, a factions of the Grawl broke off from the main 'Ulodytes' and began to pray/worship Melandru.
As for the Heretics, it's a very vague area why they are hostile both to the Melandru worshippers and the Ulodytes.

[Gmr Leon]

Here's my little theory on the Charr-Grawl relationship in Pre-Searing.

We know that Vatlaaw was going around searching for something and was trying to provoke the Grawl to help him destroy Ashford. Why Ashford? I would say probably for an easier place to bring in troops and attack the surrounding towns/cities. This also gives them an entrance into the Catacombs that would,if they had been successful,in their territory. So,I would say they were going to destroy Ashford and most likely make it into a Charr outpost.

If the Charr were successful with this it would also make it easier to find whatever it was they needed for the Searing spell.Though if you ask me,since they didn't know what it would do exactly. It would have been better to destroy Ashford,create a Charr outpost there,and then have an influx of troops through the Catacombs.Their alliance with the Grawl would then come in very good use if they had did what I just said.

We see many Grawl around the Green Hills County area and a few others that if they had an alliance with them not only would they have their troops they would have the Grawl helping them.

Though I also see this as a possibility,the Grawl and the Charr worked together to get in the Academy we find Vaatlaw in. The Grawl knew of an area and told Vaatlaw about it. The Charr Mages,seeing how they had what they needed for the spell that caused the Searing needed a distraction. The Grawl and a small team of Charr break into the Academy and by the time we had killed them it was to late to halt the Searing.

The Grawl didn't know they were being used as a simple distraction,but Vaatlaw did and tricked them.I see this as the point to where the Charr and Grawl alliance deteriorated into nothingness.

Erm,did my theory even get noticed? I don't like to repeat myself,but it seems as though it's being ignored or has gone by unnoticed. I will bring this up again only once and not do so again.

[fang]

Well GMR leon i didnt see your post in this thread but it certainly does make plenty of sense. Particularly the academy break-in. Very nice!

[Aksharack]

I had the pleasure of seeing the grawl perform their curious pilgrimage to the statue of Melandru recently while hunting for some nasty Charr, as part of the defense of the Regent Valley...

Here I saw a group of Grawl Petitioners Attacking a group of Heretics.

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/s/h/sheilawilson1/GW031.jpg

And here are the Petitioners gathered at the stature of Melandru:

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/s/h/sheilawilson1/GW040.jpg

Truly fascinating to watch this behavior.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

nice to see

[Elcold]

Thats pretty cool that they do that, it seems that in many parts of the land creatures do things unusual every once in a while.

[Indigo Montari]

I wonder if the grawl as a whole worship the gods of tyria and maybe the heritics are titan worshipers? or is that teh other way around?

[The Experimentor]

Well that definitely proves me wrong about the Grawl being uncivilized. I've never witnessed that before myself,but I remember seeing them at the statue of Melandru with a few others. I guess the Grawl aren't as stupid as some of us thought..:shocked:
Just head to Ascalon City from Fort Ranik. Some people say you need the Regent Valley Defense quest to trigger it, but it happened enough times to me, even with the quest.

[Drec Sutal]

Interesting... I find it *really* interesting that the grawl pray to Melandru... it indicates that they understand that she is the goddess of nature, and moreover understand that she is exactly what they need right now. As for working with the charr, they probably were threatened or promised reward. Following the searing some would probably stay the course, with them not being *that* smart or still under threat, while some would flee the deadly charr and try to live out life on their own.

You'll also have to remember that the grawl are *not* limited to Ascalon - they also are found in the southern shiverpeaks. Widly seperated groups would also cause a cultural split, and perhaps during the searing some communication with the southern shiverpeak grawl was made changing their view of the gods or the charr, or both.

[Tranquilis]

There's nothing terribly surprising about the Charr using the Grawl - playing one group off against another is old, old, old... Nor is there anything surprising about the Charr taking the Grawl for a ride - betraying one's stoodges is also old, old, old. Any number of mannipulations would work:

"Hey, Matron - didja ever notice that you Grawl and we Charr look a lot alike? Nothing like at all like those hairless, stone-dwelling humans. In fact, I bet those hairless apes hate us for being so obviously superior, what with our lovely fur, and all. I bet they're even willing to use our skins as fur rugs in their cold stone-houses. Saaaaaay... Hadn't we ought to do something about those evil Grawl-skinning humans? I bet they're planning something nasty even as we speak... Well, you know what they say, do unto others first, and all that. And besides, it's not like we'd be killing anything intelligent... They don't even know how to survive without their ugly, cold buildings."

Factional and tribal splits are also old, old, old, so there's nothing surprising there, either. Lastly, I'd agree that the main heresy is in not trying to restore the green, lovely land as it was from before the searing. Likely the heretics have come to worship as the Charr do.

[Barinthus]

I cannot verify this since I cannot find my copy but I recall reading somewhere that the Grawl is a cowardly race and easily subdued but the Charr is trying to instigate them into rising up against Ascalonians. I believe I got this from the manuscripts.

[RVallant]

I know the topic's old but a point I'd like to make, but, in pre-searing as you will notice a lot of the quests build around the whole Grawl-invading/Charr manipulating them to raid and attack the inner lands of Ascalon.

It may simply be that there was no real alliance, no real long term objective for the Charr, they were simply pushing the grawl to be a threat a little red-herring to distract certain forces (namely Rurik and his Vanguard + you in the end) from the searing-summoning right under their noses. An overly-simple/complicated distracting manaoveur.

The army was dealing with charr waves outside parts of the wall, the Northlands to my knowledge was only being subjected to the occassional patrol with which, one ended up in trouble. And tieing down other forces that may have found out about the ritual and putting an end to it if indeed that was their use for the Grawl was a tactic that paid off.

I bring this up because the searing occurs right as you defeat Vlat and co and for some reason I have a heavy doubt that the Charr would have spent all that effort securing an alliance for a two-pronged attack or a joint-invasion, it seems to me to just be a delaying-effort, one that was stupidly successfull.

Of course, once again I haven't read up on this issue, this is off memory and I haven't really played for 3months so do point out any irregularities =)

[Quintus Antonius]

Again, good points RV. The Grawl may be like the Dredge in Cantha, simple and misunderstood creatures that simply were attacked without any consideration to them.

Although, I'd argue that the fact that there were Grawl with the Charr, that at least some tribes of Grawl were aligned with them.

[Tide to Go]

I have just proven they are not split up...i found grawl hanging out by the charr in Sacnoth Valley

(sry if this was already posted once you enter go south west up the hill,

sry for the simple post, was in a rush:wink:

[Quintus Julius]

To follow up on Tide's post:

I'm sure most of us have ran into Vael in the Wardowns: he starts off by calling to you as 'a whisper on the wind' saying something to the effect of, "I've been watching you for a long time hero." To locate him, follow the path up the hill and wait near the rabbits until he stops talking and appears. Quite the interesting character once you start talking to him. He didn't have a quest when I first met him, but I ran into him again somewhere in the southern part of the Wardowns (nearish to the Charr encampment?) just off the road.

Anyway, part of the quest chain that Vael opens up delves into Charr-Grawl relations and an alliance between the two races against the Ebon Vanguard. I wasn't really thinking about making a point to remember much of the whole thing for the Lore forum since I very, very rarely post (although I find it by far the most interesting of the forums here), but, I recall some dialogue between the two Charr spawned for the quest as having this line: "Why should we waste Charr lives when we can use the Grawl as cannon-fodder?"

After you've followed the two Charr (it's one of those 'don't let them know you're there until you've learned what you needed to know' quests) to the meeting and listened to them talk to the Grawl for a few moments, the head Grawl in that group responds with "OOT!"


Also! In the Charr encampment in the Wardowns you can find a few Grawl emprisoned in the Charr's cages.

[seamussheridan]

I know I remember one of the characters in Tyria mentioning they thought the Charr were encouraging the grawl to attack, I think it was in pre-sear.

I did that series of quests as well, and only after did I think of screen shots, lol.