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Valiant Sir Hoffman
21-07-2006, 07:46
I was once again wondering about the construction of the Great Northern Wall. As I was out exploring several weeks back in Northern Ascalon I came upon many Ascalonian buildings ruined in the Dragon's Gullet. I then theorized that the Ascolonians had first attempted to build a Great Wall further North, where the mountains narrowed
Tactically, this location is ideal, as it covers the least amount of ground, requiring fewer men to defend it, shorter construction time, less materials, less labor, and more importantly it maximizes the amount of land available to you and procures multiple fresh water sources.
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8434/bestbangforbuckwy6.th.jpg (http://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bestbangforbuckwy6.jpg)

However, since you cannot explore that far I can't find out if there are any ruins there.
I have however seen every square inch of Dragon's Gullet, and a wall there would be logical too, it would protect trade from the Shiverpeak pass and allow for an easier defense than the current great wall, securing some extra water sources and protecting more of Ascalon.
The buildings in Dragon's Gullet look like they might have tried to build a wall through there along the green route, the red route is where I would have put a wall up.
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7573/alternatelocationxx5.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=alternatelocationxx5.jpg)

I haven't had the chance to actually go in and photograph the structures as well as I liked, but on the map they appear large and wall shaped.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3710/wallsvh1.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wallsvh1.jpg)


Also, I was snooping around Nolani and the Ascalon foothills when I discovered evidence of a possible attempt at a Northern Wall before the current one.
This wall would fortify the Shiverpeak pass, protect Nolani and whatever buildings are just north of it, as well as the countless destroyed buildings around Grenditch courthouse.
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4241/huhyr0.th.jpg (http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=huhyr0.jpg)

Valiant Sir Hoffman
21-07-2006, 07:46
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/3604/haryh5.th.jpg (http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haryh5.jpg)

These structures in the Ascalon foothills lead me to believe that not only was there a previous Northern Wall, but also a Shiverpeak fortification that housed a substantial guard force.
Due to the nature of the walls, their facing, the gate and its positioning, its a fortress designed to keep people inside the pass, the towering walls would be impenetrable to dwarvens and difficult for a Krytan siege as there is little level ground for siege equipment. The only way to take these walls is with ropes and ladders, leading to a costly siege as the walls tower easily over 40 ft. Dros Delnoch of Ascalon?

But the walls also look like they are meant to be sealed from the outside as easily as the inside, a possible last barrier to a Charr or Orrian invasion as the Ascalonians retreat to the mountains?
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7902/shiverpeakfortwa8.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shiverpeakfortwa8.jpg)

Only around Ascalonian fortifications do we find the largest of Searing Crystals.
And when you look at the pattern of the large crystals it looks more like methodical bombardment than large scale devastation. Most of Ascalon is in ruins, but there are many areas that are merely scorched, grass and plants readily returning to life and not annihilated like others.
There appears to be a method to the Charr bombardment.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8647/searingtargetsky0.th.jpg (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=searingtargetsky0.jpg)

I indicate the 'possible' pass noted elsewhere in this forum as an actual proven and known pass through to the Crystal Desert, evidenced by the tattered maps throughout ruined Ascalon.
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2508/extremelyimportanthw6.th.jpg (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=extremelyimportanthw6.jpg)
The art clearly shows a pass in that location.
Meaning a direct route from Ascalon to Orr.

The question then becomes, why?
Why would the Charr invade all 3 human kingdoms at once?
Because of the limits of terrian, the near Blitzkreig tactics in Ascalon, and the drive to Orr the invasion must have looked something like this:
The red is the route of advance of the Charr army through Ascalon, yellow is the areas hit by the Searing, the more concentrated the harder they were struck.
Black is what I theorize the invasion of Kryta might be, spotted invasion routes are possible routes of march.
So why? Why invade all 3 at once?

Valiant Sir Hoffman
21-07-2006, 07:47
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5052/whydh0.th.jpg (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=whydh0.jpg)


Since there is much speculation about past races, I provide this somewhat moonbrained theory.


The Charr want to Ascend.

Why not?

Every race so far has tried to ascend, the Elonians, the Mursaat, humans galore... There is clear evidence throughout the desert of Ascalonian influence, possibly Mursaat influence, we already know what the Elonians looked like and how they built, wood and plaster.

What better way for a race considered brutish and unworthy of intelligence to gain the favor and attention of the gods than to utterly annihilate and replace the favored of the Gods in one lightning campaign.

What is the one decidedly intelligent race that has not yet made an attempt to ascend?
Aside from the dwarves, who seem to be a bit pre-occupied with their civil war.

But anyways... just some stuff I had in my head at 1 am... and since I'm an insomniac I figured I'd put it together...
Please pick apart my musings at will.

ShadowSword
21-07-2006, 07:58
It's a good post until the Ascending bit. The reason the Charr haven't tried to ascend is that they don't worship these Gods. They worship the Titans (not sure which thread this was but it's pretty conclusive).

Ascalon's strength is defense and I suspect the Charr knew they wouldn't do anything except defend Ascalon, as Adelbern does indeed do. They went to the other two kingdoms because it would be clear that this threat was greater than the Guild Wars and they would ally. They damn near managed to get all of it, and only the Mursaat's intervention prevented it.

Gmr Leon
21-07-2006, 09:45
http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=409000

In that topic I also theorize there to have been an Ascalonian outpost in the Ascalon Foothills. So I agree with you there. Also,the Elonians are not another race,they are humans just from the continent/empire/kingdom of Elona. Although if the Ascalonians did in fact try to create another wall farther north is to be questioned. Yet it would explain the existence of some of the buildings north of the Flame Temple.

Yes,I am saying that the ruins we go through on our way to Dragon's Gullet are the Flame Temple. Mainly because if you were to outline where some of the ruins are you can see a sort of castle,fort,or simply a temple.

Trojan
21-07-2006, 19:55
Well, it IS the Ascalon Foothills, it's kind of expected they'd have at least a small village there, aka, Grendich.

Seyfert
22-07-2006, 03:31
the map in ascalon you found might be a passage but what its showing is some kind of monster that looks like an octopuse i didnt have a pic as good as yours but at first i thought they were arrows point down lol

Gmr Leon
22-07-2006, 19:56
If you ask me that monster looks like a Devourer. Maybe there are stronger Devourers to the south?

Valiant Sir Hoffman
23-07-2006, 09:07
It's a good post until the Ascending bit. The reason the Charr haven't tried to ascend is that they don't worship these Gods. They worship the Titans (not sure which thread this was but it's pretty conclusive).

Ascalon's strength is defense and I suspect the Charr knew they wouldn't do anything except defend Ascalon, as Adelbern does indeed do. They went to the other two kingdoms because it would be clear that this threat was greater than the Guild Wars and they would ally. They damn near managed to get all of it, and only the Mursaat's intervention prevented it.


After looking around Ascalon a bit more, I'm not so sure the Charr really do worship Titans. The Charr burn 'Mursaat' effigies as well as Titans, and we know that the 'Mursaat' handed the Charr army their tails.

I think perhaps they see both the Titans and the Mursaat as creatures to fear.

This is a bit of a strange theory but we know that the Ring of Fire erupted and spat out the blood-stones after the God's dropped them in there, shattering the delicate peace between humans and plunging them into war.
Why didn't the Charr attack then? Immediately? When the hatred among men was strong and there would be no danger of an alliance?
I think something more came out of the volcano than just the bloodstones.
Each bloodstone represents a a school of magic, preservation, destruction, aggression and denial.
Perhaps the stone of destruction dropped into the lands of the Charr, and with it came the burning titans.
57 years of humans fighting each-other before the Charr invade... why 57?
The opening battles had to have been more destructive, by so long into the war the first generation who fought it had died out, the second desiring less of the war and more eager for peace, the battles would not be so devastating.

I think it took so long for the Charr to invade because of 2 things.
1, they had to fight a war against the Titans.
2, they had to recover from such a war, and then harness the power of the bloodstone to shatter the static defenses of Ascalon.
3, there are no effigies of the Titans in the Flame Temple Corridor. If the Charr worship them, why are there only 'Mursaat' effigies?
Heh, I think I know why... and ya'll are probably gonna kick it when I make this comparison, but it makes sense.



To Charr, flame is the physical representation of their gods. In order to keep the gods happy, they must first fulfill their obligation to the flame. to that end, the Charr have constructed a series of sacred buildings known as Flam Temples. On raised platforforms, these bestial creatures have inscribed huge circular runes, which define and magically feed the sacred fires. Further defining the ring are pillars of pure obsidian or carved sandstone, scuplted to depict the faces of the mysterious creatures the Charr worship.



That would be... this guy right here...http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9981/messedupfellerdu2.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=messedupfellerdu2.jpg)
And this guy right here...
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1473/balthazarap2.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balthazarap2.jpg)


Now, those look really creepily like the Tyrian Gods don't they?
We know that every race has their own interpretation of the Gods, the Mursaat see them as false Gods, the Humans as Gods, the Dwarves see them as the Great Dwarves(Dwarf?), mayhaps Balthazar has a different interpretation to the Charr?

Why are there dozens of these 'Mursaat' effigies, and I've only found 2 Titan?
Perhaps the 'Mursaat Effigies aren't really Mursaat but depictions of Balthazar?
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7700/wannbebalthyuz1.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wannbebalthyuz1.jpg)http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9448/balthydx3.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balthydx3.jpg)

He is depicted as being on fire you know...
The Mursaat have 7 on each side of those feathery thingies... the effigies only have 3, the horned head is more curved, similar to a Bull on the effigies like Balthazar... whereas the Mursaat is straight back not curved.

Also, the 'Mursaat' effigies are tall, taller than a Charr and are far more numerous than the Titan.

Now I know some will say: But the Charr were aligned with the Titans in the fight at Ascalon.
My reasoning behind this is simple: The Charr fight a brutal 57 year war against the Titans hurled out of the volcanic eruption, during this time the Mursaat seal the titans back up using the Bloodstone that landed in Maguuma.
But not before the Charr population is hurt badly by the war with the Titans, the Charr then fear the titans. And burn effigies of them as wards against that fear, or to say to their troops: Look what we defeated, these humans are nothing.

The Charr then learn of the Flameseeker prophecies, that humans will unlock the Titans. The Charr instantly marshall their armies, focus the power of the bloodstone that landed i ntheir lands and seek to stop the prophecy by crushing all of humanity as quickly as possible.
This is the only thing I can see that would lead to the devastating mistake of attacking all 3 empires at once, in a time when they were likely to ally with eachother.

What they didn't count on was the Mursaat in Kryta, who perhaps thought the Charr sought to release the Titans, or the Kingdom of Orr detonating and annihilating a huge portion of their army.
After these two blows, when the Titans are released they don't believe they have the strength to beat back a second attack, and so ally with the Titans, perhaps to bide their time until they are once again strong enough.
They lost 2 of their armies in Kryta and Orr, the 3rd took heavy losses in the fights at Surmia and Rin during the time of the Player and are close to losing Ascalon.

But then... I'm a moonbrained explorer, so I don't know how much water this theory holds if any at all... but it makes sense to me. The Charr are intelligent i know that much, in the rubble around the Flame Temple you can clearly see that they reinforce their buildings with metal, like rebar... they have artisans and skilled craftsman and can also master multi-story buildings.
The Charr are far smarter than we take them for.

Blazing Liger
23-07-2006, 15:55
Interesting idea. I remember coming across one of those pillars and thinking it looked like Grenth, but like a Charr at the same time. That theory certainly explains why.

teh Monkeys
23-07-2006, 18:47
Flaw in your theory.



That would be... this guy right here...http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9981/messedupfellerdu2.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=messedupfellerdu2.jpg)
And this guy right here...
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1473/balthazarap2.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balthazarap2.jpg)

These structures and plaques are man-made, and can be found troughout Ascalon. Most notably on the Great Northern Wall itself, aswell as in several former human settlements, including what is now the Charr Flame Temple Corridor and the religious centre in Dragon's Gullet.

We had a discussion about said pillars and we came to somewhat of an agreement that it was a depiction of either Grenth or Balthazar, and since it was used mostly on gates and on the northern wall (aswell as on banners. If I recall correctly, there were human hyroglyphs on the banners.), it was theorised that they could have functioned more or less as gargoyles/guardians.

You raise some interesting points, however.


This is a bit of a strange theory but we know that the Ring of Fire erupted and spat out the blood-stones after the God's dropped them in there, shattering the delicate peace between humans and plunging them into war.
Why didn't the Charr attack then? Immediately? When the hatred among men was strong and there would be no danger of an alliance?
I think something more came out of the volcano than just the bloodstones.
Each bloodstone represents a a school of magic, preservation, destruction, aggression and denial.
Perhaps the stone of destruction dropped into the lands of the Charr, and with it came the burning titans.
57 years of humans fighting each-other before the Charr invade... why 57?
The opening battles had to have been more destructive, by so long into the war the first generation who fought it had died out, the second desiring less of the war and more eager for peace, the battles would not be so devastating.

I think it took so long for the Charr to invade because of 2 things.
1, they had to fight a war against the Titans.
2, they had to recover from such a war, and then harness the power of the bloodstone to shatter the static defenses of Ascalon.
3, there are no effigies of the Titans in the Flame Temple Corridor. If the Charr worship them, why are there only 'Mursaat' effigies?
Heh, I think I know why... and ya'll are probably gonna kick it when I make this comparison, but it makes sense.

First of all, we do not know how long the door of komali has been active, but since it's soul batteries are charged by human sacrifice on a bloodstone, I'd say the door of Komali was put into place after exodus. (Unless someone can prove that the human sacrifice does not have to take place on a bloodstone, but that is simply impossible.)

Even after the eruption of Abbadon's Mouth, one bloodstone remained, so the door could be kept operational. And since there were no titans to be seen anywhere during the guild wars, I think it's fairly safe to say that the door of komali indeed remained active.

Sooooo, I think you're wrong about the titans. What I do think you're right about is the bloodstone crashing into Charr territory. Maybe it was the bloodstone of destruction and it ruined their homeland, forcing them to invade the human kingdoms or something.

The reason why it took so long for the Charr to invade is quite simple, really. They let the human kingdoms wear themselves out during the guild wars, while the Charr were preparing their army in the meantime.

Valiant Sir Hoffman
23-07-2006, 19:50
Flaw in your theory.
First of all, we do not know how long the door of komali has been active, but since it's soul batteries are charged by human sacrifice on a bloodstone, I'd say the door of Komali was put into place after exodus. (Unless someone can prove that the human sacrifice does not have to take place on a bloodstone, but that is simply impossible.)

We don't know that the Titans were held there before the God's dropped the stones inside the Volcano, maybe the Titans are a result of all 5 stones being in one location for a length of time. The magic seeps out like radiation, perhaps the Titans are a relatively new race created entirely by magic.
Perhaps Titans were hurled out with each bloodstone, the one that landed in Maguuma is known to have been discovered by the Mursaat, maybe they overpowered a group of Titans that came with it and put the door of Komalie in place.


Even after the eruption of Abbadon's Mouth, one bloodstone remained, so the door could be kept operational. And since there were no titans to be seen anywhere during the guild wars, I think it's fairly safe to say that the door of komali indeed remained active.

I don't remember a bloodstone inside the volcano, and my manuscript says all five were hurled out of the volcano. My question is what happened to the other 3, 1 we know for sure landed in Magumma, preservation or denial perhaps? 1 has a good chance of landing in Charr territory...definately destruction or aggression... where are the other 3?

teh Monkeys
23-07-2006, 21:19
We don't know that the Titans were held there before the God's dropped the stones inside the Volcano, maybe the Titans are a result of all 5 stones being in one location for a length of time. The magic seeps out like radiation, perhaps the Titans are a relatively new race created entirely by magic.

Take a look at this:

"As the story goes, Behind the doors of Kamalie is a gateway to another realm.
Some say it leads to the Hall of Heroes. Others say it goes further than that,
pentrating deep into the mists, deep into the sanctum of the gods and their
angelic disciples."

It is also clearly stated by the vizier/lich that the titans are locked behind the door of Komali. I think it's obvious that the titans are imprisoned in and come from this other dimension, the Mists.

And other than a vague historic footnote of "the great giants", there is absolutely no lore or legend about humans or dwarves or whatnot fighting creatures that resemble titans in recent years. (after exodus.)


Perhaps Titans were hurled out with each bloodstone, the one that landed in Maguuma is known to have been discovered by the Mursaat, maybe they overpowered a group of Titans that came with it and put the door of Komalie in place.

What you seem to be forgetting is that how completely and utterly the Mursaat were defeated when the titans were released. They literally went from being a major power to a race on the verge of extinction in a day or two. I think it's very unlikely that the Mursaat were able to defeat, let alone imprison the entire race of the titans.


I don't remember a bloodstone inside the volcano, and my manuscript says all five were hurled out of the volcano. My question is what happened to the other 3, 1 we know for sure landed in Magumma, preservation or denial perhaps? 1 has a good chance of landing in Charr territory...definately destruction or aggression... where are the other 3?

Well, the manuscripts are wrong. One Bloodstone is still inside the volcano. Take a look at the Hell's Precipice mission outpost. You're standing on the Bloodstone.

guesstimate:

Preservation: Maguuma Jungle
Agression: Shiverpeaks (caused the dwarven civil war, maybe?) or Charr territory
Destruction: Charr territory (searing magic?) or Shiverpeaks, perhaps
Denial: Unkown
Keystone: Abbadon's Mouth

Quintus Antonius
24-07-2006, 04:09
I agree that Ascalon probably built several large fortifications, yet I don't necessarily agree that these are "Great Northern Walls", so to say. For instance, the walls you showed also bear a strong resemblence to the walls of Fort Ranik. This area was probably, like you said, a heavily fortified Ascalonian position, maybe even a military academy or headquarters (think: the US Pentagon).

As for the carvings, I think those are Ascalonian, not Charr, in nature. I may have misread, so I apologize if we have miscommunicated on that one.

I think that calling the effigies Balthazar is a bit of a stretch, since, other than the fire, they really don't look that much like Balthazar at all, and given what we know, it is more likely they are the Mursaat, although people have also proposed they are the Lich (which I personally disagree with, but it is one theory out there). If we are going solely on visual comparisons, then the Lich and Mursaat are much more likely than Balthazar.

In regards to what teh Monkeys said: I don't think the Manuscripts are wrong. The Bloodstone simply came back down in the volcano after it was spit out, other than that, I agree with more or less everything you said in your counter-points.

teh Monkeys
24-07-2006, 10:19
Oh great, you're back, Quintus. So much for my unopposed essay spree. -_-

Regardless, I've given the theory a bit more thought, and you actually do raise some interesting points, Hoffman. Let's just hope I don't take this thread too far off-topic. :p


We don't know that the Titans were held there before the God's dropped the stones inside the Volcano, maybe the Titans are a result of all 5 stones being in one location for a length of time. The magic seeps out like radiation, perhaps the Titans are a relatively new race created entirely by magic.

Especially this part.

What I've always wondered about is why the gods would place something as important as the five bloodstones right next to what is perhaps the most important gateway into the mists, the door of komali. Right in the middle of Mursaat held territory.

I actually almost agree with you for a change. :p I think that when the gods dropped the bloodstones into the volcano, the door of komali simply did not exist and that there was no reason for the mursaat to be there. The raw magic power of the combined bloodstones tore a hole into the mists itself, rather than their magic just "creating" the titans. If a mere mortal like Odran was able to open gateways into the mists, why not the source of Tyrian magic itself? The door was just an unexpected side-effect that the gods hadn't counted on.

This would put the creation of the door roughly a few years/centuries after exodus. At the same time the flameseeker prophecies became known. Coincidence? Perhaps. I think that Glint knew that the door was forming inside the volcano, and since the gods were no longer here to stop it, she was forced to take matters into her own hands, and convinced the mursaat to close off the door trough the flameseeker prophecies.

I also think you're right when you say the 'mursaat' effigies are not mursaat, but I don't think they're depictions of Balthazar. I think that the effigies are of the lich, also known as the flameseeker. Think about it, what would be more holy and worthy of worship to the Charr than the creature who would bring their gods back to Tyria?

Quintus Antonius
24-07-2006, 15:56
Might it also be possible that the Mursaat effigies are the actual spirit form of the Titans? I personally believe that one of these spirits inhabited the Lich, causing the corruption and singlemindedness of the Vizier. That said, I don't believe the effigies are the Lich, himself, as there is no real evidence of Lich visits to Charr territory. The reason I continue to persist on the Mursaat effigy, is because it is the only one with solid evidence, whereas the Lich theories are simply speculation based on how it looks.

teh Monkeys
24-07-2006, 18:36
Might it also be possible that the Mursaat effigies are the actual spirit form of the Titans? I personally believe that one of these spirits inhabited the Lich, causing the corruption and singlemindedness of the Vizier.

Could be.. and that could explain why the scrolls the vizier read are 'forbidden'.


That said, I don't believe the effigies are the Lich, himself, as there is no real evidence of Lich visits to Charr territory. The reason I continue to persist on the Mursaat effigy, is because it is the only one with solid evidence, whereas the Lich theories are simply speculation based on how it looks.

Yes I think you're right there. If the effigies do depict the lich, I don't think that the effegies are of the lich (vizier) himself, but rather the flameseeker of the prophecies. What do we really know of the flameseeker prophecies? What if they speak of an undead lichlord that's going to free the titans and that he looks like such and such? (what if, what if, I know. let me have my fun, damnit.)

I mean, the Charr must know of the prophecies. Because after all, they more or less say that their fire gods will be released when the prophecies come to pass. I can't be bothered to read your entire 20-something-page thread about mursaat effigies, Quintus, (nor can I actually find the damn thing.) but what was your reasoning behind it again? I always thought it was weird for titans to worship the mursaat, eventhough they're the enemies of their titan gods.

Btw, could someone clear something up for me? Can both types of effigy be found in pre-searing ascalon, or are there just titan effigies?

Quintus Antonius
24-07-2006, 18:42
I mean, the Charr must know of the prophecies. Because after all, they more or less say that their fire gods will be released when the prophecies come to pass. I can't be bothered to read your entire 20-something-page thread about mursaat effigies, Quintus, (nor can I actually find the damn thing.) but what was your reasoning behind it again? I always thought it was weird for titans to worship the mursaat, eventhough they're the enemies of their titan gods.

Btw, could someone clear something up for me? Can both types of effigy be found in pre-searing ascalon, or are there just titan effigies?

Most of the argument of the Mursaat effigy is based around what we know about Charr culture and similar cultures to the Charr.

Also, the Mursaat-type effigies cannot be found pre-Searing.

gnome gnome
24-07-2006, 18:52
if what you say is true and the "mursaat effergies are only visible after the searing i thinjk that casts formidable doubts on thier mursaatness, in the 2 years lost when you leave pre searing their was surely engought time for the lich to ttravel to the charrlands, or even the charr that surviveid the catacaslm could of seen the lich arised from the ruins of orr.(just some speculation)

Quintus Antonius
24-07-2006, 20:04
It doesn't cast any more doubt on the Mursaat nor the Lich. In fact, in the two years after the Searing, there were major White Mantle and Charr battles, where the Charr could have very well picked up the Mursaat.

teh Monkeys
24-07-2006, 20:48
Or where they could very well have met the flameseeker himself. :p

You have the admit, the possibility exists. (albeit unlikely.)

Gmr Leon
24-07-2006, 21:28
Since we're talking about the effigies mentioned in this topic I may as well throw out my theory on the Pre-Searing titan effigies.

If you go north of the wall in Pre-Searing and near Piken Square on a hillside there is a Titan Effigy. The funny part is,one of the Searing meteorites hits right in the area it was. While we don't know if the Charr were able to pinpoint certain areas for the Searing's main damage this is still a good idea that they did with the titan effigies.

The only problem with this theory is that we can't go everywhere like in Post-Searing to see where most of the effigies are.

Quintus Antonius
24-07-2006, 21:58
Or where they could very well have met the flameseeker himself. :p

You have the admit, the possibility exists. (albeit unlikely.)

The only thing is that what we know of the Lich doesn't fit with the timeline. He didn't have the Scepter of Orr yet, and didn't have control of the Titans. So it's unlikely that he'd be around the Charr. Also, the Charr's place in the tier of things of the Prophecies was already over by the time the Lich was created. They served no real further purpose, at least, in the sense of helping the Prophecies to come to pass.

Gmr Leon
24-07-2006, 22:03
Edit to my original theory.

I actually think that the reason the Charr had men around each titan effigy in Pre-Searing was not only to guard them,but so the Charr Searing Mages would have a good description of the landscape. This would also explain what Vatlaaw was doing behind the wall and why they worked with the Grawl. Vatlaaw was sent out to scout out locations to focus on for the Searing and had the Grawl help him in doing so.

Erm...sorry if this should be in another topic. I'm sort of going off-topic..I think anyway.

teh Monkeys
24-07-2006, 23:02
The only thing is that what we know of the Lich doesn't fit with the timeline. He didn't have the Scepter of Orr yet, and didn't have control of the Titans.

He became the flameseeker the minute he became the lich. Whether he had the scepter yet or not, he was the one prophecised by glint, and he was bent on releasing the titans. We do not know what part the scepter of Orr actually plays in the prophecies, maybe it goes something like "and the flameseeker will.. uhm, seek out the scepter of Orr and stuff".

And he does fit the timeline. As you said there are no mursaat/lich effigies prior to the searing, this is because the lich didn't exist until about a year after the searing. The Charr realised that the flameseeker had not yet been born.


So it's unlikely that he'd be around the Charr. Also, the Charr's place in the tier of things of the Prophecies was already over by the time the Lich was created. They served no real further purpose, at least, in the sense of helping the Prophecies to come to pass.

Whether the Charr actually served a purpose in the bigger picture is irrelevant, atleast to the Charr themselves. The Charr knew of the prophecies, and they knew that the newly created flameseeker would set their gods free. That would be reason enough for them to worship/build effigies for him.

And Leon, I don't think the Charr could actually use any precision with the searing spell. It seems somewhat too.. crude for that. Not very Charr-like. :p

Gmr Leon
25-07-2006, 01:16
Yes,I know,but we have been surprised by the Charr in the past. I mean,who would have expected them to cause something as big as the Searing? Pretty much no one.

I still think it may be possible that they managed to make it precise via scouts behind the wall..

Zion Farbow
25-07-2006, 01:26
dang thatts a nice thot on battle tactics Hoffman :)

Edit: now that i thought about it the Char might have made contact with Glint as well as the humans did much later during the searing o_o. And also 2 years is a long time for soemthing to be plotted out and happened. Another thing is the guy that found the unseen gods, where and how did he found them?

those are the thigns im wondering about

gnome gnome
01-08-2006, 20:11
in the center of their camp, built out of tree limbs and straw, sat a towering three-legged, flaming effigy,a tribute to their firey gods.
...looks like we were both wrong quintus, it cannot be the mursaat or the lich becase they are both bepiedial
and another thing

To that endthe charr have construceda series of sacred buildings know as flame temples. on rasied platforms, these bestial creatures have inscribed huge circlular runes, which define and magical feed the sacred fires. further defining the rings are pillars of pure obsidian or carved sandstone, sculpeted to depict the faces of the mysterious creatures the charr worship
so prehaps the charr did build the flame temple corridor after all?
i for one am certainly up for and expedition to get a screenie of thoose carved faces,and to see if the flame temple corrior mathces the above discription

Ranger Nietzsche
01-08-2006, 20:45
...looks like we were both wrong quintus, it cannot be the mursaat or the lich becase they are both bepiedial
and another thing



not necesarily

that description from the manuscripts sounds like its describing the Titan effigies. Titans are three legged and those effigies have straw in them. The lich/mursaat effigies have no straw and are certainly not three legged.

gnome gnome
01-08-2006, 20:56
yes but the picture below shows the "wingged effigy"

teh Monkeys
01-08-2006, 21:18
so prehaps the charr did build the flame temple corridor after all?
i for one am certainly up for and expedition to get a screenie of thoose carved faces,and to see if the flame temple corrior mathces the above discription

The temple the manuscripts are referring to is of the kind you'll find in the Ruins of Surmia bonus. The flame temple corridor is man made.