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MrRock
26-07-2006, 16:22
If the paragon shouts are like skills.... I think we're going to be seeing a lot of "Singing" Rangers.

Not only that, but I just had a second thought. But if a paragon uses their spear skills, if they're anything like weapon skills for warriors/rangers, then expertise will help there were leadership falls even further short.

Findariel
26-07-2006, 17:18
We'll no doubt see a lot of spearwielding rangers!!! :azn:
Spear Attacks + Expertise = lots of near to free spear attacks!

Deus Invictus
26-07-2006, 17:31
just one thing the main site said that spear mastery was the paragon primary... kinda hard for a ranger to do any dmg with a weapon when they have no points that attribute

Zesr Swiftblade
26-07-2006, 17:34
they changed the paragon primary from spears to leadership lol check it once more

Deus Invictus
26-07-2006, 17:36
i see that they did... i wish thye kept it tho b/c that would have set them apart... o well

WingspanTT
26-07-2006, 17:48
I think everyone who wanted a Bard got one. A Bard with spears.

Maybe this time there will be no Fend or Lightning Strike bug. And maybe Impale will be worth it. IMPALE FTW.

Azure Eyes
26-07-2006, 19:42
The more classes that anet comes out with the better rangers get it really seems that expertise might be better for shouts. Leadership at max gives you 5 energy per shout while expertise at max will save .....
5e=2 10e=4 15e=5 25e=9

So unless all the shouts are 5e it would be better to max expertise then leadership. Caint wait to make a singing ranger, maybe call it a hippie build, sings cruddy songs and lives in the woods.

Findariel
26-07-2006, 19:57
Expertise > Every other primary attribute.
Doesn't mean I'm not curious about what leadership can actually do.

Viridian Smoke
26-07-2006, 21:28
Dont forget: IIRC, the Paragon also has the ability to make hexes cast on allies nearby take longer to cast. That ability alone could be enough to bring a Paragon primary over a R/P. Depends on the range of that ability though.

ShiningDrLight
26-07-2006, 21:44
Dont forget: IIRC, the Paragon also has the ability to make hexes cast on allies nearby take longer to cast. That ability alone could be enough to bring a Paragon primary over a R/P. Depends on the range of that ability though.

That ability could very well be included on one of the other attribute lines...nothing of that sort is mentioned in Leadership's description.

Patccmoi
26-07-2006, 22:12
The way leadership is atm, it better have many key skills, kinda like how Strength has some key warrior skills (Bull's Strike, Sprint/Rush...), or Critical Strikes for assassin (Twisting Fangs, Palm Strike, Critical Eye...). Something like a skill making your shouts last longer or have a larger range for example (that's what i thought Paragon primary would do before it was announced) could make it worth it.

Otherwise Runes might not be enough to justify picking a Paragon primary, especially since Shouts ARE reduced by expertise (Chants might not be though, we'll see!), and Expertise is very likely to reduce Spears attack skills cost on top.

But ya, comparing things to Expertise is often harsh, cause Expertise is just an insanely good Primary attribute, possibly the best in the game with a very great mix of base effect + key skills, some of which nearly all ranger want (Distracting Shot, Whirling Defense, Lightning Reflexes, Dodge...)

lavenbb
26-07-2006, 22:21
I'm actually interested in what "chants" mean.

Many people speculated they will be like the bard idea, in that you have to actively maintain a sort of area enchantment.

How does that work in GW? If it is a skill that takes forever to cast, and it gives its effects while casting, wouldn't interrupts make it completely useless?

The only advantage that we figured out out of leadership is that 5e shouts/chants can be free. What if chants are instant cast, instant recharge, 5e shouts that only last 1-2 seconds? That way, only a paragon will be able to maintain chants indefinitely, while every other profession will run out of energy at some point.

It's sort of like spawning power for ritualists. Other classes can also spirit spam, but it is easiest for a ritualist primary to maintain multiple spirits.

mr godspeed
26-07-2006, 22:40
I was just wondering shouts stack right? So will we see LFG Shout spammer?:tongue:

ToSpiteMyself
26-07-2006, 23:41
Maybe there will be shields that are linked to the Leadership attribute. This would give another advantage to primary Paragons using spears.

MrRock
27-07-2006, 00:01
I realize my statement is a bit of a reach, However, there are people who worked on diablo 1 & 2 here working on Gw.

Remember the javazons... They had throwing and melee spear skills. I guess this was directed at maybe having shields linked to leadership. It dose not sound like a good crossover though.

Princess eirika
27-07-2006, 02:34
Remember, this event is also for changing skills and stuff.

If you recall, in the factions pvp event, critical strikes didnt have more energy bonus, only 1

its very possible if Anet feels Leadership is underpowered, it could be changed, or beefed up.

Kalin
27-07-2006, 11:38
I agree with Princess eirika, the whole point of these testing is for massive feedback. If a lot of people feel that Leadership is underpowered (or Dervishes Mysticism is overpowered) then they will be changed.

On an off note, I have to politely disagree with all the sentiments that expertise is the best primary line in the game. It is for energy dependant skill users only. For adrenal users there is strength and critical strike, and for spell casters there's fast casting, spawning power (attuned was songkai), and energy storage, for minion users there's again spawning power and soul reapping.

Who's to say that all the shouts for paragons won't be adrenaline based, they do have spears to gain it afterall. Plus their chants sounds a lot more like spells than skills. So while a Paragon might be able to build up adrenaline using spears, use shouts to gain energy through leadership and thus power up their chants, a ranger would... do what exactly?

I'm not saying that javazon won't be possible, I'd like to remake mine sometime too, but it's just way too early to tell, because expertise is only best when it comes to energy based skills.

Azgalon
27-07-2006, 12:08
I'm actually interested in what "chants" mean.

Many people speculated they will be like the bard idea, in that you have to actively maintain a sort of area enchantment.

How does that work in GW? If it is a skill that takes forever to cast, and it gives its effects while casting, wouldn't interrupts make it completely useless?

The only advantage that we figured out out of leadership is that 5e shouts/chants can be free. What if chants are instant cast, instant recharge, 5e shouts that only last 1-2 seconds? That way, only a paragon will be able to maintain chants indefinitely, while every other profession will run out of energy at some point.

It's sort of like spawning power for ritualists. Other classes can also spirit spam, but it is easiest for a ritualist primary to maintain multiple spirits.


One could assume that (if they work similar to bard-chants), that several of the chants have a very quick cast-time as well as recharge, but if you knockdown a Paragon with 2-3 active chants he/she is maintaining, they will probably all be cancelled and he/she will have to activate them again.

Just a guess and speculation.

The chants/auras that require maintaining (on and off, while active you get the boni)
Quick to activate, quick recharge(some may have longer recharge as well), but easily interrupted.

Then there are shouts with long recharge and a duration on the effect. (not maintained)

Will be interesting to see.

lavenbb
27-07-2006, 12:12
Yap, and I'm talking about how they're gonna be maintained. Enchantments that require active micromanagement exist in game aleady (Orders).

So I guess chants will also have to be reapplied frequently.. That's my guess anyway, and the only way the current Leadership can be justified....

scots
28-07-2006, 04:22
[QUOTE=MrRock]If the paragon shouts are like skills.... I think we're going to be seeing a lot of "Singing" Rangers.

..It warms the cockles of my heart to read this, as I invented the original "singing barbarian" build in Diablo II. : -)

You can find the original article I wrote for Bolty at the Lurker Lounge here:
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/content/view/772/123/


- I think it's quite possible, given the nature of the Paragon, that the class will lend itself to "Singer" builds. I'm certainly going to work on one :)

Scot

DKS
28-07-2006, 10:01
As a more offensive minded player and ranger ethusiast, I'm gonna have loads of fun throwing spears at high speed, low cost. Just test the pack hunter pre-made build, tiger's fury+spears is like having your character wielding an uzi. At that attack rate, even with just NORMAL attacks you can brind down the 100 armor targets pretty quickly...throw in some actual damaging attacks and it gets even better.

Philem
28-07-2006, 12:18
After looking at the Paragon skill descriptions, MOST of their abilities are termed "Shout" or "Chant" or "Echo"

NOT "Skill"

Therefore, will make it rather hard for Expertise to play into them.

FIY

Now, go have fun. Good hunting!
-B

ShiningDrLight
28-07-2006, 12:24
:grin: You know, binding rituals don't say skill either, but Expertise still reduces THEM! :rolleyes:

Also, the changed how expertise reads...now its all non-spell skills [as it's always been]. So ya..it's still viable. :grin:

Atum
28-07-2006, 14:56
what about using a zealotīs spear-upgrade as spear-para(not shouts-build), or dont i get enough energy with that instead of using expertise?

Phoebus
28-07-2006, 15:01
Every skill is a 'skill', including spells, signets, rituals, shouts, etc.
Expertise reduces the cost of all non-spell skills.

ShiningDrLight
28-07-2006, 15:07
Every skill is a 'skill', including spells, signets, rituals, shouts, etc.
Expertise reduces the cost of all non-spell skills.


Also, they changed how expertise reads...now its all non-spell skills [as it's always been]

Oh wow, i'm glad you clarified that one. :grin:

Khift
29-07-2006, 02:32
As it is Leadership does not work as it is described. Yes, I have tested this myself and I will say that it works alot better than it claims it does.


The description claims the maximum energy you can gain with a shout is 1 per every 3 ranks. This would mean that at 3 Leadership you gain 1 energy, at 6 you gain 2, at 9 the number is 3, etc. etc. all provided you have a large enough audience of course.

The actual effect is a maximum of 1 per every 2 ranks. This would mean that at 12 Leadership the most you can gain off a shout is 6 energy, not 4. That is a huge difference -- it makes shouting/singing Paragons much easier on the energy in the long haul.


With this in mind, when it comes to shouts and chants Leadership is far superior to Expertise except in very rare circumstances. At 8 Expertise, a 5 energy skill costs 3 and a 10 energy skill costs 6. At 8 Leadership a 5 energy skill costs 1 and a 10 energy skill costs 4. And adrenal skills cost -4. It is a big, big difference.


Of course, expertise will always be superior energy management when it comes to the spear line. But is anyone honestly surprised about this?

Phoebus
29-07-2006, 02:59
Of course, expertise will always be superior energy management when it comes to the spear line. But is anyone honestly surprised about this?
Wrong, because excluding Spear of Lightning, a Paragon Spearman will do more DPS than a Ranger Spearman.
That's because the majority of spear skills are adrenaline based, thus Expertise doesn't help them at all, but 16 Spear Mastery does.

Khift
29-07-2006, 03:13
Wrong, because excluding Spear of Lightning, a Paragon Spearman will do more DPS than a Ranger Spearman.
That's because the majority of spear skills are adrenaline based, thus Expertise doesn't help them at all, but 16 Spear Mastery does.It might do more damage as a Paragon primary... but expertise is still the superior energy management over leadership for spears....

I mean, when was the question about damage? It's just energy management...

Phoebus
29-07-2006, 03:29
Who cares about having more energy management when you don't need more energy?

If you exclude Spear of Lightning, a Paragon Spearman will DO more damage than a Ranger Spearman including the benefits from Expertise, because Paragons can handle the energy cost of the other energy attack skills.

Khift
29-07-2006, 03:39
Who cares about having more energy management when you don't need more energy?

If you exclude Spear of Lightning, a Paragon Spearman will DO more damage than a Ranger Spearman including the benefits from Expertise, because Paragons can handle the energy cost of the other energy attack skills.YOU'RE IN THE WRONG THREAD.

Phoebus
29-07-2006, 03:49
No I'm not. If Expertise isn't needed for Spear skills, Leadership > Expertise.

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 06:25
YOU'RE IN THE WRONG THREAD.

He is in the right thread. Read his post again.