PDA

View Full Version : [Elonian Lore] Struggle On the Same Side?



Смерть
26-07-2006, 18:37
I decided to post this topic here, as it has taken off in the Movie/Art Forum.

Here is a link to the other forum: http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=411690&page=2

Why would the Elonians be fighting each other?
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/826976/armor.jpg


Wonder why two on the same side would have killed each other...(a discussion to bring up on the Lore Forum if not already though).

that is an excellent point!

I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I've wanted to kill some people from my own team.

They were best friends, and one was cheating with the other's fiance?

Maybe in the end, it was The Giants having fun, posing the dead remains. Maybe setting up a tourist spot...then again, that doesn't look like the desert to me. I propose they may have been set against eachother by powers out of thier control in either the UW or FoW, ... if that is where the background is...

Quintus Antonius
26-07-2006, 18:48
1) Are you sure this is from Guild Wars?
2) Are you sure this is not photoshopped or modified?
3) Are you sure those are Elonians?

djxiii
26-07-2006, 18:51
I think the one on the bottom didn't bring a res.

Смерть
26-07-2006, 19:02
1) Are you sure this is from Guild Wars?
2) Are you sure this is not photoshopped or modified?
3) Are you sure those are Elonians?

2) Yes, it is a legit screenshot.


If some one could give me a screen shot of the 2 dead guys with this armor on, it'd be good so i could get some base colors going.


I was running around the FoW yesterday when I came across these fellas:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/826976/armor.jpg

Sir Pwn Your Mother, are these the guys you were talking about?

3)
Here is the picture (click to enlarge):
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6187/ghostlyherohh3.th.jpg (http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6187/ghostlyherohh3.jpg)



1) Yes, ^

Quintus Antonius
26-07-2006, 19:27
Alright, thanks.

Well, if you remember, the Elonians in the Desert broke out into civil war over Ascension. Maybe that explains it?

Смерть
26-07-2006, 19:54
Well, if you remember, the Elonians in the Desert broke out into civil war over Ascension. Maybe that explains it?

Cool. Interesting that such a war would reach FoW.

shadow the hero
26-07-2006, 21:11
Isn't That Place Overrun by Undead, Where you found those Corpses? and isn't there a Undead called "Undead Berzerker" with that Armor?

lavenbb
27-07-2006, 03:20
It's a reused.. nvm :)

There are so many undeads in FoW, sure they must've died in some way..

(and yes I can testify the validity of the shot itself since I've seen them in fow)

Zaxares
27-07-2006, 03:49
Yes, I've seen the skeletons in question myself, so the screenshot is definitely real.

As to why they were fighting, who knows? Perhaps it was a personal dispute, as some have suggested. Perhaps there was a conflict between two factions within the Elonian army, or even something as drastic as civil war. Perhaps one of the guys just went insane and killed his fellow soldier.

Kyshen
27-07-2006, 10:15
heh.. I was the one who first mentioned those two unfortunate buggers on that thread.. and we all know the elonians fought over ascension.. but never managed to actually get there.. So how is it they even got into FoW?

did any of the elonians get any further than the Desert? because there are the secret entrances to FoW and UW located deep inside the Maguuma and Shiverpeaks.. could the elonian scholars have found out a way to access the next worlds without ascension?

as for the reason for their betrayal.. the spear in the back of the guy on top.. it pierces him form behind.. I think perhaps there was some sort of conflict between the soldiers as they realise there's no way out.. one stabbed the other and the commander.. (paragon would be best suited.. they're designed to be commander aren't they?) decided to end them both before the anger spreads and everyone kills eachother..

any sighting of paragons? or some elonians actually manage to survive?

Darakus
28-07-2006, 13:45
Well we know that Elonians as people didn't manage to ascend, it doesn't state however that some Elonian individuals weren't able to hence the civil conflict started in the desert might have extended in the Fissure of Woe or Underworld.

The picture typicaly reminds me of a fight between two groups of people where the winner of a fight gets stabbed in the back by a member of the other group because he is busy killng the one he was fighting with. This would indicate a conflict between two sides and the lack of bodies around those two indicates survivors.

It could also be that we have a third party there who seeing the fight decided to deal with the survivor before he could fight back this seems more likely as in such a situation we would have a sword duel between two fighters won by one of the two that would then have been killed by a third guy (maybe a horseman seeing as the spear is embedded almost verticaly). The question then is why did the third guy not think to get back his spear after the deed or could it be he was himself assaulted before he could do so?

Quintus Antonius
28-07-2006, 16:06
As we learn more and more about the nature of Elonian military organization, it becomes apparent that the Elonians use a structure similar to that of the Romans, as in, there are legions or cohorts commanded by centurions (paragons).

If this was a cohort of Elonians who managed to find its way into the Fissue (remember, the Elonians did manage to get the attention of the gods, even if they didn't actually Ascend, so they may have still found a way into the Fissue) perhaps when civil war broke out (perhaps even caused by whatever chaos seems to be happening in Elona) one killed his fellow soldier, and their paragon killed him.

Darakus
28-07-2006, 16:23
Hum actually Paragon armor reminds me a bit more of Carthage and not Rome which would fit more with Nightfall's northern african setting. Carthage did in fact have a military structure that was akin to the Roman one (and most of that time's militaries). What enhances my feeling is the long sword the soldier in the picture is using where the roman army was better known for its gladius (or short sword).

Furthermore Cathaginians were known to have some very Brutal god which, if we make a direct relation between them and Elonians, might make a case for the Elonians being introduced in the fissure of woe to fight against Balthazar.

Now that I think about it it might also make a case for Elonians fighting between them as support for different gods might create tensions that wouldn't be present otherwise.

Quintus Antonius
28-07-2006, 16:37
Yes, I definantely agree that in terms of armor, the Elonians seem to draw comparisons to Carthage, but you can also see some Roman influences as well.

However, I would disagree fully that the Romans and Carthaginians had militaries like "most of that time's militiaries". During that time in history, the only people with organized militaries were more or less the Carthaginians and the Romans (in the west at least, the Chinese and Samurai had highly organized militaries at the time, but they were organized in very different structures).

Also, the structure of Carthage and Rome was very different as well. Rome had begun to use the legion format, while Carthage still used phlanax formations and tactics inspired by the militaries of Greek and Rome. Let's not forget they also used elephants and other heavy units that the Romans simply did not have. Part of the reason Rome was defeated in the first Carthage Wars with Hannibal is because of the Carthaginians efficiency of breaking the early Roman legions.

Also, at the time, Roman legions were not unified with common armor and weapons. Each man more or less brought his own equipment to the field. It wasn't really until Scipio Africanius in the second Carthage Wars that Rome was able to mount effective organizational strategies against Hannibal's forces. Scipio's victories gained him eternal fame, and he was hailed as one of Rome's greatest heros in a time before Marius and Sulla, or Pompey, Cassius, and Caesar.

But I digress. When looking at the Elonians, I can't help but feel they took the major cultures of the time around the Carthage Wars (the Numidians, Carthaginians, Egyptians, and Romans) and combined them. That would fit with ANet's prior cultures, such as the Canthans, which were a mix of Asianic cultures.

halfthought
28-07-2006, 17:12
Scince fow may resembel "hell" it may be there that the spirits of corrupt soldier do battle for all eternity... maybe those wereelonian soldiers

Santax
29-07-2006, 21:08
Just a small note: Shouldn't this be in Elonian Lore instead of Tyrian Lore? The Elonians in the Fissure of Woe didn't necessarily ascend in the Crystal Desert, they may be more recent, and have ascended back in Elona.

Quintus Antonius
29-07-2006, 21:29
The Elonian forum didn't exist at the time, it's a new thing, but yes, you are correct, it should be there; I'll move it on over.

Keep in mind though, that Elona refers to the continent, not the people, so in regards to Elonians in the Crystal Desert, the thread should stay in the Tyrian forum.

Santax
29-07-2006, 21:39
The Elonian forum didn't exist at the time, it's a new thing, but yes, you are correct, it should be there; I'll move it on over.

Keep in mind though, that Elona refers to the continent, not the people, so in regards to Elonians in the Crystal Desert, the thread should stay in the Tyrian forum.
Since there's no plausible way that the Elonians in the Crystal Desert could have reached the Fissure of Woe without ascending (not only would they have to have ascended, which they didn't, but they would have to have travelled to either the Temple of the Ages or Arah), I propose that maybe they didn't ascend in Tyria after all. Remember, there were still Elonians left in their own land of Elona. Perhaps a means of ascension without making a pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert has been developed in Elona, much like becoming Weh No Su in the Nahpui Quarter like the Canthans do, and find a medium in which to travel to the realm of Balthazar, much like in the Temple of the Ages or Zin Ku Corridor. However, that still doesn't answer the question of why they killed each other, or indeed why they were in the Fissure of Woe at all. Once again, I find us with a "how" sorted, but not the "why".

Quintus Antonius
29-07-2006, 21:59
Well the thing about science is that it can't really answer "why". All we can do is say "how" and "when" something happened, and "by what means". The only way to answer "why" is in the words of the person, which are rarely recorded and are biased by the individuals own perspective of events through his or her own eyes.

Darakus
30-07-2006, 14:02
Yes, I definantely agree that in terms of armor, the Elonians seem to draw comparisons to Carthage, but you can also see some Roman influences as well.

However, I would disagree fully that the Romans and Carthaginians had militaries like "most of that time's militiaries". During that time in history, the only people with organized militaries were more or less the Carthaginians and the Romans (in the west at least, the Chinese and Samurai had highly organized militaries at the time, but they were organized in very different structures).

Also, the structure of Carthage and Rome was very different as well. Rome had begun to use the legion format, while Carthage still used phlanax formations and tactics inspired by the militaries of Greek and Rome. Let's not forget they also used elephants and other heavy units that the Romans simply did not have. Part of the reason Rome was defeated in the first Carthage Wars with Hannibal is because of the Carthaginians efficiency of breaking the early Roman legions.

Also, at the time, Roman legions were not unified with common armor and weapons. Each man more or less brought his own equipment to the field. It wasn't really until Scipio Africanius in the second Carthage Wars that Rome was able to mount effective organizational strategies against Hannibal's forces. Scipio's victories gained him eternal fame, and he was hailed as one of Rome's greatest heros in a time before Marius and Sulla, or Pompey, Cassius, and Caesar.

But I digress. When looking at the Elonians, I can't help but feel they took the major cultures of the time around the Carthage Wars (the Numidians, Carthaginians, Egyptians, and Romans) and combined them. That would fit with ANet's prior cultures, such as the Canthans, which were a mix of Asianic cultures.


Just to adress this point for the sake of completeness and even though I'll be fully out of subject by doing so.

What I meant by armies of that time was the structure in light infantry, heavy infantry they all seemed to possess at that time after which you could find archers, cavalry, elephants, ... depending on the nation.

You are right in your point about the roman army being much less efficient at that time however the long sword was still not a commonly used sword since they tended to use the greek sword

Concerning organised armies Carthage and Rome had most likely the most powerfull of the times but other organised armies included the greeks (who were still there at the time), the egyptians and the Numidians as you mentionned yourself.

Now to come back in the subject :

ANet has repeatedly proven to us that they like to hide elements of Lore in the game, this makes me believe there certainly is something in the Fissure of Woe that might explain the skeletons that have been found, we know for sure the place is a battlefield but what do we know about the reasons of the battle?

Vasha Lien
08-08-2006, 04:57
Since there's no plausible way that the Elonians in the Crystal Desert could have reached the Fissure of Woe without ascending (not only would they have to have ascended, which they didn't, but they would have to have travelled to either the Temple of the Ages or Arah), I propose that maybe they didn't ascend in Tyria after all. Remember, there were still Elonians left in their own land of Elona. Perhaps a means of ascension without making a pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert has been developed in Elona, much like becoming Weh No Su in the Nahpui Quarter like the Canthans do, and find a medium in which to travel to the realm of Balthazar, much like in the Temple of the Ages or Zin Ku Corridor. However, that still doesn't answer the question of why they killed each other, or indeed why they were in the Fissure of Woe at all. Once again, I find us with a "how" sorted, but not the "why".

What's his name opened tons of portals before the spirits killed him (first person into the rift). I can't remember his name, he was able to open so many before the spirits killed him because they didn't know how to interact with physical beings yet.
We only have to be ascended to get into the portals such as ToA because we need to be allowed in.
There may have been portals the Elonians used, which is obvious considering the armor on the bodies in the Fissure.

Смерть
08-08-2006, 05:07
What's his name opened tons of portals before the spirits killed him (first person into the rift). I can't remember his name, he was able to open so many before the spirits killed him because they didn't know how to interact with physical beings yet.
We only have to be ascended to get into the portals such as ToA because we need to be allowed in.
There may have been portals the Elonians used, which is obvious considering the armor on the bodies in the Fissure.

That is a good idea. That would make great sense in how they got there.

Quintus Antonius
08-08-2006, 06:24
Yes, the Elonians also mention they succeeded in getting the Old Gods' attention. We don't know exactly what that means. It may have meant that a Champion of Balthazar popped out of the ground, charged them some money and they were allowed into the Fissue.

Still, I agree with Vasha, it is obviously likely that the Elonians have a means to enter the Rift, just as the Tyrians, Canthans, and Zaishen do.