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Kyshen
26-07-2006, 22:12
consider this: the main problem with previous classes such as N/W and some other warrior secondary is the lack of the 'strength attribute'.. now that the attributes have been confirmed by Anet.. notice the distinct lack of strength?

now the question that presents itself is: will the lack of strength make a dervish that can attack multiple opponents yet have a low offensive power, or will the Scythe (typically quite a heavy weapon with intense armour penetrating capabilities if used correctly) have a hitherto unseen amount of AP as part of it's basic weapon stats? maybe instead of being like sundering.. it'll have a constant AP? maybe it'll be around 20-50% armour penetration?

I presume that the AP would be dependant on the att of Scythe mastery

if this is so.. will this unlock potential for Casters (necros and monks in particular) to weild high normal offensive power?! and in turn create new breeds of farmers.. (can you say 55hp with normal multiple enemy attacks coupled with vampiric upgrades and SS?! intense.. )

critical vengeance
26-07-2006, 22:23
hmm will just have to wait to see i guess

Erasculio
26-07-2006, 22:44
The Assassin doesn't have strenght. That doesn't prevent him from doing as much (or more) damage than a Warrior. There are other ways to balance damage other than Armor Penetration.

Erasculio

Kyshen
26-07-2006, 22:56
the assassin.. as I understand has high critical strikes and attacks that provide better attack power also including a wide number of status conditions..

I was merely asking for speculations on the method of damage balancing..

(if the thread title seems a little.. offensive.. it was just a play on words with the lack of strength attribute.. not an attack on the class itself)

fallot
26-07-2006, 23:03
Strength's impact on DPS is almost ignorable. It adds (depending on the points you've put in it of course), 10% Armor Penetration to your base damage while using attack skills. Realize how small that value really is.

You are taking the name of the attribute too literally.

Edit: I said 10% because that's a nice average number. You could of course pump the attribute to 16 and get 16% penetration. Its impact on damage would still be very small.

Phoebus
27-07-2006, 02:45
consider this: the main problem with previous classes such as N/W and some other warrior secondary is the lack of the 'strength attribute'.. now that the attributes have been confirmed by Anet.. notice the distinct lack of strength?
The problem with */Ws is that they can't have more than 12 in the weapon mastery and they don't have the armor of a warrior.
The Strength attribute is the weakest primary in the game and lacking it doesn't hurt */Ws.

Now if strength gave +1-3% adrenaline per level, that would be useful.

Hari Iyer
27-07-2006, 04:22
first off, strength adds significant damage to attacks, if you plug the numbers into the damage equations, you'll see.

there are several issues with */W's
- lack strong armor
- lack the ability to use sup absorption runes
-lack strength and therefore lack melee damage potential (the exception is the A/W, which has critical strikes)

My guess is the dervish's scythes will have a very high max damage, when you think of a scythe, a very heavy, very sharp, very big weapon comes to mind. And its 2 handed, my guess is it'll have the same as (or more) damage than a max hammer. Also, A.net probably thinks that the ability to strike multiple opponents counterbalances the lack of melee damage potential.

can't wait till saturday.

Cruel Angel
27-07-2006, 04:46
My guess is the dervish's scythes will have a very high max damage, when you think of a scythe, a very heavy, very sharp, very big weapon comes to mind. And its 2 handed, my guess is it'll have the same as (or more) damage than a max hammer. Also, A.net probably thinks that the ability to strike multiple opponents counterbalances the lack of melee damage potential.

Was going to suggest the very same thing about the AoE effects balancing against the damage. Warriors don't get a whole lot of AoE stuff: Prophecies only had what, one for sword (elite), one for axe, and one or two for hammer, with Factions adding about the same to each if any. So maybe the Dervish gets alot of AoE stuff but its offset by lower damage per target. Warrior does X damage to typically one target, where the Dervish will do X damage spread out amongst multiple targets. But then maybe it won't balance if they have low armor like an Assassin, with higher damage being the trade off for going SPLAT if you're not careful... so possibly X damage to each target in the AoE... and then targets get mad and eat you alive because you didn't go Dervish/Assassin :)

Kattox
27-07-2006, 09:38
The problem with other caster classes playing warrior isn't that they can't use strength. Its that their armour is too low to be in thick of combat and that they can't go above 12 in the weapon attribute

ckenni
27-07-2006, 10:09
I hope/believe that the dervish earth prayers would be the precise thing casters would need to be in the thick of the combat.

Kyshen
27-07-2006, 10:38
a cross between an axe and a hammer.. fascinating..

should be an interesting weekend

Kalin
27-07-2006, 10:55
Strength isn't a "bad" attribute persay, but consider this... having one weapon stat at 16 instead of 12 (assuming you're level 20) grants you the ability to deal 15% more damage. The difference of 4 attributes in your main weapon skill is roughly the equivalence of 15 attributes into strength (Obviously it's a lot more complicated than that due to attribute point allocation and rune usage, but let's leave it out for now).

Certainly, when combined, strength and 16 weapon mastery becomes strong, but you have to keep in mind that strength doesn't seem to stack with most other form of armor penetration (AP skills), except for sundering mods and judge's insight. This is why it's usually an attribute that's good to put spare points in, but is rarely worshipped.


Now back to the OP. If you make scythes into a powerful AP weapon, you run into the risk of turning it into too much of a powerful weapon. Warriors don't run around with 15 strength all the time, most barely has any in there, there's no reason to give Dervishes that ability plus the bonus they get from Mysticism as well. To do so would throw balance out the window (especially 20-50AP, that would be insane).

Yet at the same time, while PBAoE is nice, a weak multitarget attack really doesn't help anyone. Face it, when you come up against strong targets, you call out targets and take them down one at a time... AoE skills for warriors is used mainly to gain adrenaline to power other skills, not for their damage potential. So to "balance" weakness by having a dervish able to hit multiple enemies seems like a joke if they can't actually hurt any of them. If this were to come through, scythes might become the most worthless of all the weapons... and Dervish scythe users will turn into the ultimate bad wammo, one who attracts a crowd of foes that he has no chance in hell of killing.


Instead, I suspect that scythes will be essentially Hammers, different look, different name, different skills, different damage type, but exactly the same statwise. Why? because the balance for it has already been done. I would also suspect that the way they deal more damage (to keep in line with warriors and sins) would be through enchantments in the mysticism line, skills along the line of judge's insight (adding AP), signet of strength (adding set damages per hit), or critical eye (adding critical chance).

Although I would love to see scythes become novel weapons with unique gameplay, I highly doubt that they would go through the efforts to do so.

richo
27-07-2006, 11:21
how about our marvelous thumpers? they are r/w and unless the other warrior has half his skillbar filled with mending, healing breeze and healing signet they will get owned pretty fast~~

strenght isnt that great:

example 10 strenght = 10% ap = on 60 AL 54 armor instead
on 100 AL its 90 armor...
each 5 armor gives a total of 9.9x% dmg reduce make the calculation and you know how much more dmg you do in total (10% on ~40 dmg = 4 dmg extra)

I dont think the dervish will be made like the warrior it will depend on enchants and attack skills combination for ultimate dmg:smiley:
(cant w8 for trying out a R/D thumper with a scythe:laugh: )

WingspanTT
27-07-2006, 13:42
Strength sucks, and ultimately Assassins and Rangers get by without it. A N/W sucks because it has no armor to stay in melee long term, not because of <10% damage diff.

Phoebus
27-07-2006, 13:43
10% ap is +11% damage vs. 60 AL.
10% ap is +19% damage vs. 100 AL.
13% ap is +14.5% damage vs. 60AL.
13% ap is +25% damage vs. 100AL.
15% ap is +17% damage vs. 60AL.
15% ap is +30% damage vs. 100AL.
This armor penetration from Strength only affects weapon damage (not the skill damage), it only works when you use an attack skill, and it does not stacks with most other forms of armor penetration.

If you go from 12 weapon mastery to 16 weapon mastery you get:
+15% damage weapon damage on all attacks (Not only attack skills.)
Improved attack skills. (Ex.: Executioner's Strike goes from +34 to +42 damage, a net +8 armor ignoring damage)
Increased chance of critical strikes. (From 16% to 21% chance to crit)

I couldn't care less if my */W doesn't have strength.

fallot
27-07-2006, 14:47
first off, strength adds significant damage to attacks, if you plug the numbers into the damage equations, you'll see.

That is incorrect. Its absence will not make a secondary warrior deal significantly less damage. Plug the numbers yourself and see.

Patccmoi
27-07-2006, 15:39
As other said before...

you're lucky enough is Strength gives you 4-5 damage bonus when using an attack skill. And if you use any +damage attack skill, you're often better with +1 in the weapon attribute than +6-7 in Strength for the damage you'll get in the end. If i don't use Strength skills, i honestly wouldn't put anything but leftover points in Strength. A warrior going something like 16 Weapon-12 secondary attribute has nearly the same damage as one going 16 Weapon-13 Strength. Ofc, you'll have bad strength skills.

It is by far the worse primary attribute, it's good side being that there is many key warrior skills in the attribute line (Bull's Strike, Sprint/Rush...)

Let's face it, warriors were given a bad Primary attribute effect to balance the fact that their armor and absorption rune is a huge advantage they have over other classes.

WingspanTT
27-07-2006, 16:11
Don't 4get their SUPER 1337 13-req STR ARM0R. Ha.