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wtfisgoingon
28-07-2006, 16:02
anyone else think they are too power full , i mean look at their skills, no class can escape from them, and the sins will be dying all over them now, dont ya think the sin needs a major buff now, and their attacks do AoE damamge + a condition after enchantment ends ,aint this a bit unbalanced?

Tru Reptile
28-07-2006, 16:08
Considering how HEAVILY dependant Dervishes are on Enchantments and how easy it is to strip Enchantments, no, they are not overpowered. Also keep in mind that they only have 70AL and seemingly very few good defensive skills.

I'm a bit dissapointed actually, but I'll have to play more to get a better judgement.

Akirai Annuvil
28-07-2006, 16:08
Yes it is. Enjoy it while you can :) (it'll be fixed before Nightfall comes out anyways) .

Azure Eyes
28-07-2006, 16:11
The problem with enchant stripping is it only recharges the dervish so that she can attack again. Im predicting a sizable dervish nerf before release. Remember when shadow refuge use to be good?

Naf Olbaid
28-07-2006, 16:11
anyone else think they are too power full , i mean look at their skills, no class can escape from them, and the sins will be dying all over them now, dont ya think the sin needs a major buff now, and their attacks do AoE damamge + a condition after enchantment ends ,aint this a bit unbalanced?

I agree.

I'm not sure about the Team and Random Arenas, but from my mesmerising 5 hour killing spree today in AB(with Whirling Dervish pre-made), I am truly convinced the dervish needs to be toned down. ALL attacks = AoE? I never would have expected this.. especially with such high damage weapons.

I do like the whole enchantment system the class is based upon though, it is truly ingeneous. Hats off to Anet.

Servant of Kali
28-07-2006, 19:12
rotfl Dervish ownz! it's overpowered hahhahahhahah so funny tho :P enjoy while u can

takplayer
28-07-2006, 19:18
Like all melee classes, keeping them a fair distance away pretty much nullifies them. Slowing skills, combined with some e-denial, kills most dervishes without any problems.

One limitation i've noticed is the wondering AoE enchantments, while nice, don't really help against kiting players - who easily can run out of the range in the time it takes to activate.

Furinto
28-07-2006, 19:29
Most of the Dervish enchantments gain additional benefits when they end, so simply saying "don't worry, they can be stripped" isn't saying much.

I'm just going to have to enjoy this event as much as possible before the nerf. D:

Psymun
29-07-2006, 00:01
My Mesmer has been having a lot of fun with all the "overpowered" Dervishes she's been meeting today. Oh look, a new melee class. It uses enchantments too? Alight, so between the snare and the degen, lets throw in a drain enchantment. Mix in a little clumbsiness and ineptitude as needed and watch them kill themselves. Huzzah!

Yeah, people don't know how to counter them yet. They're not all that great against people smart enough to spread out and avoid area effect, though they are currently excellent energy engines with Mysticism. The passive energy effect of Mysticism will probably need to be toned down a bit, but overall they aren't any more of a worry than Warriors.

Hari Iyer
29-07-2006, 01:23
i don't know, most dervishes i meet have been easily dropped by my sin. But then again, everything gets dropped easily by my sin, unless he gets blinded xD

Cruel Angel
29-07-2006, 01:36
I can't really say if they're overpowered or not, as I've only played them for about an hour earlier this morning before work. But from that little bit of playtime my opinion now is that they're not. They have 70 AL like Rangers and Assassins (less the +30 vs elemental and +15 while attacking those two classes typically wear) so they're just as squishy. And I'd have to say I died as many times as I killed someone, if not more (though I was using the D/Me premade).

I must say though, the automatic adjacent damage on the Scythes is pretty sweet though, and came as a surprise. Vampiric or Zealous mods are going to possibly be a bit crazy on them if you get enough targets standing together (assuming it feeds off every hit from one swing, though I haven't tried it yet). They have excellent skill synergy within their own class though. 1) Put enchantments on yourself and gain the primary benefits, 2) Use attacks and skills that increase damage/duration/etc for enchantments on you, 3) Let enchantments end or remove them yourself and gain the secondary benefits PLUS benefits from Mysticism.

I'd have to say that Dervish is kinda what I was hoping Assassins would have been... lightly armored, multiple-target, melee death machines. But oh well, as long as they filled the roll eventually, right? :)

Nano Person
29-07-2006, 01:38
Wish I could play :( I have all 6 of my character slots filled with FoW armor and I cannot delete one :(

Akisame Kiyoraba
29-07-2006, 01:43
Apparently Anet hasn't overlooked the effect of Dervishes being entirely enchant reliant afterall.

Most dervish enchants have a reasonably short recast time, and have an effect when they wear off. Take Vital Boon for example; At 12 Earth prayers, it heals 135 health when it is removed. At 12 Mysticism, you heal 36 health and 6 energy when an enchant is removed. Vital Boon has 5 energy cost/1 second recast/8 second recast. This means if you strip it, the only thing you've accomplished is that you've refunded the energy cost, and healed the Dervish for 171 health. As a matter of fact, Dervishes even have skills that allow them to remove enchants on themself, to trigger the after-effect. Sure, most people won't have 12 in 3 attribute lines (Scythe, Earth/wind Prayer, Mysticism) except Warriors, but Mysticism happens to be a attribute line thats filled with skills, like Strength, but has an excellent inherit energy return effect like soul reaping.

Although even with that in mind, i still can't see why they are even so much as considered spectacular in PvP; As a counterweight for all their attacks being AoE, they have no direct high damage skills. They all either add moderate/low damage, or have a condition, such as requiring the dervish to maintain 4 enchants, or having 4 foes adjacent. When you consider that warriors have practically been able to chain +43 damage adrenaline skills since Factions, and that Assassins have a large repetoire of unconditional high damage dual attacks, it seems to balance out just fine. As far as weapons go, they all still have their utility; Axe generates significant amounts of adrenaline, and is better for spiking, Sword gives the highest consistent dps due to many high-adrenaline/damage skills in conjunction with adrenaline generating elites, Hammer is loaded with Knockdowns, daggers allow for energy based, unconditional spikes. Scythe just makes high AoE damage via melee available.

highjinx
29-07-2006, 01:46
energy denial= you might as well just zone back to GH

spiteful spirit= works like a charm
Desecrate Enchantments???? - LOLZ ON U DERV

I dont htink its unbalancing REALLY.... just like the Rits... its going to be a game-altering thing... Itll only force you to change up your precious builds...

There will be nerfs no doubt... but dont expect anything too nerfy... dervishes are SUPPOSED to $%*& things up ;)

PS you know they already had to nerf a skill, right? Been followin it on GURU forums...

raisenero
29-07-2006, 02:02
At first I thought Dervishes were overpowered, but looking a little closer they do have some major weaknesses. Like Elementalists, Necromancers, and Warriors, they have severe vulnerability to hexes. They have a limited number of ways to deal with direct effects (Lightning Orb for example), and for a melee-oriented class, they have low armor.

People's builds might not be tuned to take Dervishes into consideration right now, but they have many weaknesses.

Schmerdro
29-07-2006, 02:34
The only thing I don't like about them is that they are so friggin' predictable; you always know what they're going to want to do... enchantments are nothing new. Think about the Assassin, they could teleport, use combo-attacks, and rely on criticals, all of that stuff was new... enchantments aren't.
Also, earth ele and trappers can enchant temselves and attacks all nearby targets too. This class doesn't bring in as much new stuff as Factions did.

Icy Spicy
29-07-2006, 02:38
i find it weird people think striping their enchantments will kill them... well if you really look at the skills, they benfit from an enchantment when they cast it, and after it is gone, there is no bonus while the enchant is on them... so striping enchantments is only making them do their thing faster... no to mention give them a pretty good health and energy bonus to recast whatever they got...

Sapo
29-07-2006, 02:50
I think many people may think the dervish is " over powering" because so many people are being them so when they attack in pvp and are near each other it is a pretty big AoE spike. Once Nightfall comes out the amount of dervishes will decrease making less of a chance for this spike. And for there weapon it can be high powered but there is a huge range (9-41) and it is not a very fast attack speed. Like raisenero said they do have weaknesses just like every other character type in this game making it ~~ BALANCED ~~

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 03:04
Maybe Mesmers get a new skill in Nightfall.

Prevents casting of any enchantments in the area for 30...48 seconds.

Elementalists, Target Foe is struck for 50 fire damage for each enchantment and is burning for 5 seconds per enchantment.

Necros, Target Foe loses all enchantments and is struck for 30 cold damage for each enchantment lost. Target Foe is crippled and diseased for 5 seconds per enchantment removed.

Do not forget that the Core classes get new spells/skills in Nightfall as well!

Surely something to counter! :girly:

Lefaras
29-07-2006, 03:19
Melandru's arrow, shatter enchantment..etcetc..kills them rather decently..

alchemistsan
29-07-2006, 03:22
Dervish is good in vs multiple ppl that groups together (they will shine in PVE).

if u try to spread out in 1 to 1 combat. They will always in disadvantages, slow attack speed, energy regain by end enhancements, and quite high energy spell attacks (the prayers).
I can drain all my energy in a matter of seconds and have to wait for recharge or to "kill" my enhancements to gain back energy.

Even most ppl thought they are overpowered, they can get killed easily as they kill ppl. Conditions & Hexes are best against this class. Even Melandru form can't bypass the hexes

Aranesp
29-07-2006, 03:23
I know you meant that just off the cuff, but holy cow are those ideas for skills overpowered.

Mesmer: super well of profane.
Ele: 5 seconds of burning per? Let's say they have three enchantments... that's 15 seconds of burning. I think the most any current spell has is 3 seconds, because 15 seconds = 210 damage. +150 initial damage... that's 360 damage out of one skill.
Necro: uh... they have one skill where target loses all enchantments right now, and the cost for doing it is quite possibly killing themselves in the process.

Heheh, I'm just joshing with you. But I know what you mean. When Factions came up, existing classes got a huge boost with hex removal; we may well see a similar thing here.

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 03:45
I know you meant that just off the cuff, but holy cow are those ideas for skills overpowered.

Mesmer: super well of profane.
Ele: 5 seconds of burning per? Let's say they have three enchantments... that's 15 seconds of burning. I think the most any current spell has is 3 seconds, because 15 seconds = 210 damage. +150 initial damage... that's 360 damage out of one skill.
Necro: uh... they have one skill where target loses all enchantments right now, and the cost for doing it is quite possibly killing themselves in the process.

Heheh, I'm just joshing with you. But I know what you mean. When Factions came up, existing classes got a huge boost with hex removal; we may well see a similar thing here.

Just examples! The numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt. :)

I'm certain the other classes will get some good counters for the new classes in Nightfall, so we (the players) shouldn't worry too much about Dervs and Paras cleaning house with the rest.

MaximumSquid
29-07-2006, 03:56
If you are a ranged character like the R/P Spear Chucker you can easily dominate the Dervishes.

But I will agree that there are some imbalances in the class.

For one I think their AoE spell damage on enchants combined with the mysticism passive is far too strong.

I don't mind a Dervish doing huge damage with a scythe, but I think it's assinine when they can out DPS an Ele in raw spell AoE damage.

neoflame
29-07-2006, 04:17
I think the most any current spell has is 3 seconds,
Mind Burn, though a relatively bad skill in general, is 7 seconds maxed out (8 with a GoEP, 9 with a GoEP and +1 Fire Magic.)

Necro: uh... they have one skill where target loses all enchantments right now, and the cost for doing it is quite possibly killing themselves in the process.
They also have Gaze of Contempt.

Above poster: uh, what? Every one of the Dervish's AoE damage spells (that I can think of) is PBAoE.

The Harlequin
29-07-2006, 05:06
Like Sins, they're a bit light on the defense and vulnerable to degen. Overall, I think that the playstyle is great and is exactly the kind of thing a new class should add. I wouldn't be surprised if the effects got rescaled but I'd hate to see them become unviable. The weapon skills are all conditional for full effect and slow to recharge. They certainly can't outspike other classes for single targets, so their DPS relies on the kindness of their enemies bunching-up. Even with a high mysticism, I've still run out of energy frequently with the pre-fabs.

hahnsoo
29-07-2006, 05:18
Makes me want to break out my Tranq/Renewal Ranger build again. Dervishes are very dependent on Enchantments, and although they can keep their Energy going, the recharges on most of those enchantments aren't so kind. A Necromancer or Mesmer with even a single Enchantment stripper will have a field day with Dervishes.

Patccmoi
29-07-2006, 05:21
I've been playing a CoP Dervish and i consider it BADLY overpowered. I often tanked and kill 2-3 people on my own.

I use:

Avatar of Balthazar
Balthazar's Rage
Finger of Grenth
Hearth of Holy Fire (i think that's the name)
Wounding Strike
Dwayna's Touch
CoP
Rez Sig

I have atm 14 Mysticism (major rune), 12 Scythe, 8 Wind (could be higher with runes!)

Avatar is on 50% of the time basically, it lasts like 56 seconds, give me +40AL and 33% move speed.

Then, the broken part, is the HOLY DAMAGE AOEs. That's RIDICULOUS. I do Balthazar's Rage-Finger of Grenth-Heart, hit a few times, Wounding Strike (AOE Deep Wound anyone? 3 sec recharge too), CoP to fill all my energy back and get a huge health boost, and restart all my enchants. I can do this every ~10 sec. And if i'm focused, i can heal myself with Dwayna's Touch for 120 health every 2 sec.

Hexes? Slowing me? Conditions? CoP, and i have 33% move speed with my Avatar, good luck running. What's the range of AOE? NEARBY! Nearby AOE for eles cost 15-25E, and are ELEMENTAL damage. Here we're looking at 100 HOLY DAMAGE AOE with 5 sec recharge? Nearby AOE? Right...

4 Dervishes could just rush in a team in HA with strong support, in Balthazar or Melandru avatar likely, and do Balthazar's Rage-Hearth for 200 AOE damage EACH, ignoring armor, to nearby AOE. That's just retarded.

Dervish can do everything in a single build. Look at what i have above. A running skill, a snare, massive pbAOE, good, AOE basic damage, high tanking skill, very powerful heal for energy/recharge (that can be used on others too if needed but touch range), can AOE burn too, and can AOE Deep Wound, can remove all hexes and conditions on myself... isn't that a LITTLE bit too much of things you can do on a single build? I hardly need any support at all, and i do massive damage. Ofc if can't tank a full team focusing me forever with my own healing (though i can for quite a bit of time while in Avatar). But if you have a monk in the team, or other people shutting down their attack, you can do MASSIVE AoE damage while being fully self-sufficient.

It's just too good imo. By far. Ray of Judgement is a smiting elite, 15/2/30, adjacent AOE iirc, and does the same damage as Balthazar's Rage does but this is 10/.75/5, non-elite. No, it's not balanced...

Striken7
29-07-2006, 06:37
Yes they are overpowered, and obviously so.

There's only 2 ways to balance a new class, either start it weaker then the existing classes and buff what needs to be buffed, or overpower it and slowly nerf it back down to balance.

Take Assassins for example; when they were first released a majority of players complained about how bad they were. No one wanted them in their teams because they were so weak. Over time, certain skills were helped out as well as people learning to play the profession better. With Dervishes/Paragons, they went the other way. People playing them for the very first time are steam-rolling experienced players. As skills/items/runes get unlocked and people learn more about the profession, there will be no choice except to nerf them, and it's already started.

By the time Nightfall is released, the new classes will be mere shadows of their current selves.

Apok Omni
29-07-2006, 06:59
Wow. Simple wow. You guys are naming all of the ways to strip their enchantments. Yet, taking their enchantments away only refuels them. Here is the only good way to stop them:

Shadow Shroud: For 3...8 seconds, target foe cannot be the target of Enchantments.

A shutdown Mesmer/Assassin now has a great excuse to use Shadow Shroud. If you strip their enchantments, they only become stronger. But if you stop them from casting enchantments on themselves for even a limited time.

Ezra
29-07-2006, 09:04
A number of their skills actually removes their enchantments to gain benefits. They're designed to be removed. That's why I tend to use Diversion, instead. Also, they are about as good as Fire eles... they have to work very hard for a single target, energy-wise, but it's worth the energy when there are more people standing close to the primary target of the Dervish. I think it's pretty well-balanced.

Naren
29-07-2006, 09:05
There are some good builds, there are some bad builds.

I would expect some of the numbers to be toned down a little, but for the whole strategy and synergy to remain. I think the balancing method that's most likely will be to increase the recharge times on most of the enchantments. With the 4 earth enchantments from the D/W premade, + Signet of Peity, I can tank like a champ, and still get in some powerful attacks on occasion, as well as plenty of AoE earth damage.

With higher recharges, there would be a vulnerable period, which would encourage playskill as you kite away, or rely on healing from a teammate for 10 seconds.

Ramza
29-07-2006, 09:13
I've been playing the 2 standard Dervish builds Anet gave us and and I must say those are far from being overpowered. I think the 2 Paragon builds are better.

However, some builds are appearing by players who unlocked quite a few skills and they are showing how great and somewhat overpowered Dervishes can be.

Further question the limitation put by ANet on this event. I think all Dervish and Paragon skills should have been unlocked so we could show them what's really broken.

BunnyLord
29-07-2006, 09:19
Right now they overpowered, but that's because its just a preview, like the assassins back then. It's a way to enjoy a class and also a good way to learn without sucking/getting owned too much. They WILL balance the Dervish to the point that their damage is inferior to the assassins like the way it should be.

I remember back then when assassins can shadow step all over the map using Heart of Shadow and Viper's Defense making them the ulitmate runner. Also look at Temple Strike, there was no monk before that can survive the duration and spammability of that attack...now nobody cares about it.

Also to that person that says enchs are easy to strip, well you're right but you're helping the dervish more than disabling them. It's not about stripping enchs but more on preventing dervs to use them so it's better to use some assassin skills like Shadow Shroud or Shroud Silence.

Lefaras
29-07-2006, 09:42
Makes me want to break out my Tranq/Renewal Ranger build again. Dervishes are very dependent on Enchantments, and although they can keep their Energy going, the recharges on most of those enchantments aren't so kind. A Necromancer or Mesmer with even a single Enchantment stripper will have a field day with Dervishes.

Disagree. If you notice, a lot of Drevish enchantment have a side-effects when the enchantment ends, Sometimes it even worse to just strip an enchantment on a Drevish.You might cause blind, cripple, burning etc etc on your fellow teammates.

But I agree that a ranger will really shines when combating Drevish with Melandru's Arrow and Tranq/Renewal.

An assasin will also shine when combating Drevish...but than an assasin always shines at everything:afro:

AscalonWarrior
29-07-2006, 09:44
Why are you complaining about over powered dervishes if you play them? Does it matter how much damage they do if you play them?

Finally a class that swings his/her weapon and deals damage to enemies in front, I didn't deal any damage to enemies behind me. So it's not AoE damage?

Nightfall Crescent
29-07-2006, 10:01
I don't know. Have been fighting many Dervishes with my anti-warrior N/Me. And they feel somewhat the same as assasins. 1 is not a problem. 2 is harder. But when 3 dervishes are hacking away on my Necro I'm dead before I can cast or run away. Once the 'OMG new class' has cooled down, it willbe managable.

However. The only problem I have with the dervish is the high damage of they weapon. I have been hit for over 150 damage with 1 swing :shocked: And when you look at those weapon stats it's max damage is well in the 40's. That's a hell of a lot.

Avoc
29-07-2006, 12:10
on the other hand, I've been doing 15 damage against a necro aswell.
So it varies alot.

(I did 202 damage in Lyssa form against a guy who i didnt even target)

Xavatar
29-07-2006, 12:15
Elite form skills are pretty cool imo.
Maybe a little imbalanced? Their attacks deal aoe dmg every swing, with 41 max damage and their skills deal more spike than assasins. With enchantments and stuff like that=pwnz

TDV
29-07-2006, 12:29
I have a really good idea about how to finally end the balance problems: give all professions equal armor, equal damage, remove all skills except rez, remove all runes. Armors are in this game just for the looks anyway...


there will ALWAYS be some skills/professions that are not perfectly balanced... that's why ANet keeps "nerfing" skills and such... so I don't see this "OMG this combo pwns everything and I don't like to be that powerfull, ANet plz nerf it!!1!!!1 " as being of any help...

hmmm... this is beta testing and ANet needs feedback... my post just lost its meaning... :sealed:

oh and plz don't nerf the dervish too much before release :grin:

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 12:44
Don't forget the good ol Shadow Refuge that changed from beta / PvP event to the current form.

It was pretty good in Beta! :D

abcda
29-07-2006, 12:49
The dmg Dervish deals varies since theres a big gap between their max and min dmg (8-41) so its just like a bigger version of axe. I agree Dervish are overpowered and the onlything that can stop them is hex. I only play a short time and my build is an earth prayer Dervish (dont have much time so just come up with whatever I can think of). With Avatar of Melandru you can laugh at Rangers and all their conditions (I especially love chasing a cripshot Ranger-irony) and with mirage cloak you can relax when 2+ wars are on you (not to mention other Earth enchant with weakness effect-makes sin pretty much useless). As Naru said, with Signet of Piety and the short enchant recharge time you'll be able to tank 2-3 people w/o a problem, I usually get 2+ people on me till they give up and switch target. However they will only shine in PvE and random imo, since their skills arent able to deal a large dmg in a short amount of time and only aoe, they wont help much in HA or gvg.

twistedmo
29-07-2006, 13:03
I'm sure they'll get balanced before there is probably a pve weekend like with factions. But i have to admit the dervish aoe dmg is alot greater and quicker than a earth ele.

kurrierpy
29-07-2006, 13:22
well i think dervish is a fun class, maybe overpowered now or people lacking the ability to change builds to counter their attacks. but maybe i just enjoy winning in ra for once since not trying it with the "useless" rt. though, nightfall will most deffiently have new skills for every other class, possibly making them overpowered too. like aoe degens from rt's spirits?

Bobross
29-07-2006, 15:39
Don't forget the good ol Shadow Refuge that changed from beta / PvP event to the current form.

It was pretty good in Beta! :D


Heh, shadow refuge is still great! -if you're a dervish. With mysticism up its a very decent self heal + energy management all in one.

Patccmoi
29-07-2006, 15:49
Since yesterday i started putting 14 Mysticism and 6 in Prot Prayers using RoF as self-heal. It's retardedly efficient in the end, netting me 2E, and 51-92 health (not to mention negating up to 41 damage dealt to me, so in a sense healing me for up to 133)

3 AOE enchants, a DW Scythe Attack (Exhausting is nice cause it's cheap), RoF and CoP, i don't fear hexes, conditions, nukes... anything at all except 3 people focused on my back for 30 seconds or so (i can often tank 3 people about that long in Balthazar's Form... without it i can still last a very long amount of time)

Did scrimmage for fun with a friend yesterday and i could easily kill NPCs all over the place with his permade Dervish (D/W one iirc) on my back hitting me non-stop. I could just ignore him, and once in a while he had to run or he would die from my AOE. It's just retarded. I don't see the counter except Diversion spam, but Diversion spam is a counter to absolutely everything so it doesn't really count in a sense.

If my enchants are all stripped and i get hit with Shadow Shroud before i can put some back on (i rarely pass more than 1 sec without enchants myself), it could be a pain, but i can easily run for 7-8 sec usually, at least when i'm in Form. But if it's not well timed and i have time to put any enchant on (even RoF if no one is targetting me right when i'm hexed) i'll just CoP it like the rest.

This build has far more survivability than anything i know, even tanking warrior builds (because those are easily killed through degen and hexes usually), can take EDenial very well usually, and can kill in AOE at a decent pace. Too much in one build, i don't need any support unless i have a full team on my back or i'm in a Diversion lock while being bashed on, but the same could be said for just anyone.

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 15:53
Heh, shadow refuge is still great! -if you're a dervish. With mysticism up its a very decent self heal + energy management all in one.

True!

But my point was, a skill can change from a pvp event to release, just like Shadow Refuge changed! :cutie:

Wiseblade
29-07-2006, 16:16
I'd say that the Dervish isn't overpowered. Peope just seem to have thrown their brains out the window this weekend. I have PbAoE, so you clump together in a group? and why are condition spreading rangers attacking a Avatar of melandru? People just need to adjust a grab some common sense. Spread out, spam Diversion, Shadow Shroud and Shroud of Silence and wait for the victory. Empathy and SS work wonders too. One sec, why am I telling you how to beat me?

kidlantern
29-07-2006, 18:46
anyone else think they are too power full , i mean look at their skills, no class can escape from them, and the sins will be dying all over them now, dont ya think the sin needs a major buff now, and their attacks do AoE damamge + a condition after enchantment ends ,aint this a bit unbalanced?
we said the same for As....

and really people will figure out how to kill them, heres a though (and this will booste the need of hydromancers everywhere) make them go 60 -90% slower with water magic, then make them miss with blurred vision. then have a warrior kill them, 70 armor + slowed + not belng able to hit + warrior killing them.

and they really only do great in attacking groups, so there weakness is when there isiolated then soloed

falling demon
29-07-2006, 18:47
enchant strips, desecrate and defile enchantments, yes they can do alot of damage, but they take alot too

Ashin
29-07-2006, 19:41
Considering how HEAVILY dependant Dervishes are on Enchantments and how easy it is to strip Enchantments, no, they are not overpowered. Also keep in mind that they only have 70AL and seemingly very few good defensive skills.

I'm a bit dissapointed actually, but I'll have to play more to get a better judgement.

Many of their skills have beneficial conditions that REQUIRE enchants to be stripped. So no, simply stripping enchants is hardly a shutdown for them. I do believe in their current form they are significantly out of balance, yes.

Wiseblade
29-07-2006, 20:27
Many of their skills have beneficial conditions that REQUIRE enchants to be stripped. So no, simply stripping enchants is hardly a shutdown for them. I do believe in their current form they are significantly out of balance, yes.
So Empathy, clumsiness, Diversion, Backfire, Blackout, Spiteful Spirit, Shadow Shorud and Shroud of Silence don't exist anymore? (I would think of more, but I can't be bothered. :tongue: )

Arctus Redryn
29-07-2006, 21:04
So Empathy, clumsiness, Diversion, Backfire, Blackout, Spiteful Spirit, Shadow Shorud and Shroud of Silence don't exist anymore? (I would think of more, but I can't be bothered. :tongue: )

Empathy, Backfire, Spiteful Spirit, Shadow Shroud, and Shroud of Silence will be removed by Contemplation of Purity (taken from patccmoi), and at the same time, the Dervish will get energy and spread Conditions. Dervishes can inflict damage from their enchantments, so Clumsiness will not shut them down completely. Diversion will work, but watch yourself and work around it. Blackout works, but it is not quite as good as before.

As you can see, nearly every counter you came up with can be dealt with. :wink:

And if all else fails, Reversal of Fortune spam for more than free.

Banfasta
29-07-2006, 21:30
i think it isnt overpowered. A-net was carfull when writing descriptions for skills.
the elite skills that are forms and such cannot be reduced recharge time, the actuall recharge time for the skill is 5 seconds but sthe skill is disabled for an additional 250 or so seconds, no way to reduce recharge time with serpents quickness qz and such, i agree with reducing the damage of sythes and the speed of the dervish, but enchants can be stripped by many many necro skills and other dervish skills (avatar of grenth strips 1 enchant each hit) so dervishes can be killed by eachother, necros, mesmers with empathy and such or e-denial or other builds, elemtalists with any spiking or speed debuffs, and warriors and sins with skill...ritualists with interrupt or disenchant spirits.. the only thing that couldnt kill them is a monk... but it all depends on builds some necros can kill sins some sins can kill necros some eles can kill wars some wars can kill eles its all the skill level of the player and the certain build they use.

takplayer
29-07-2006, 21:35
Empathy, Backfire, Spiteful Spirit, Shadow Shroud, and Shroud of Silence will be removed by Contemplation of Purity (taken from patccmoi), and at the same time, the Dervish will get energy and spread Conditions. Dervishes can inflict damage from their enchantments, so Clumsiness will not shut them down completely. Diversion will work, but watch yourself and work around it. Blackout works, but it is not quite as good as before.

As you can see, nearly every counter you came up with can be dealt with. :wink:

And if all else fails, Reversal of Fortune spam for more than free.

E-denial + Diversion. I found this was by far the most effective setup, besides the all so fun Crippling Anguish or other slow spell. AoE enchants and Scythe attacks only work if they catch you :wink:

Arctus Redryn
29-07-2006, 21:42
E-denial + Diversion. I found this was by far the most effective setup, besides the all so fun Crippling Anguish or other slow spell. AoE enchants and Scythe attacks only work if they catch you :wink:

Ye, Diversion spam and energy denial are two of the better counters, but Crippling Anguish and other Hexes can be removed by Contemplation. And Balthazar's form gives you 33% increased movement.

Xunlai Agent
29-07-2006, 22:06
The Avatars are just insane combined with chant spam you have a class that needs to have it's skill tuned down or the primary attribute changed...

Wiseblade
29-07-2006, 22:21
Empathy, Backfire, Spiteful Spirit, Shadow Shroud, and Shroud of Silence will be removed by Contemplation of Purity (taken from patccmoi), and at the same time, the Dervish will get energy and spread Conditions. Dervishes can inflict damage from their enchantments, so Clumsiness will not shut them down completely. Diversion will work, but watch yourself and work around it. Blackout works, but it is not quite as good as before.

As you can see, nearly every counter you came up with can be dealt with. :wink:

And if all else fails, Reversal of Fortune spam for more than free.
Backfire and Spiteful spirit would discourage CoP, and the shadows would make it useless. Without enchantments, you have remove hexes. :wink:

I XM
29-07-2006, 23:30
Backfire and Spiteful spirit would discourage CoP, and the shadows would make it useless. Without enchantments, you have remove hexes. :wink:
CoP is a skill not a spell. So you get rid of backfire without taking any damage (+get healed and gain energy because of mysticism). Same thing for Shroud of Slience, you can use CoP since it isn't a spell. Shadow Shroud would get removed as well, unless you have already stripped all his enchants at which point he will be running and waiting out Shadow Shroud.
And 37 dmg from SS at 16 Curses? A single enchant removed by CoP at 12 Mysticism heals you for 36hp as well as gives you 6E. :wink:

Patccmoi
29-07-2006, 23:30
Backfire and Spiteful spirit would discourage CoP, and the shadows would make it useless. Without enchantments, you have remove hexes. :wink:

How can Backfire and Spiteful Spirit discourage CoP?! A CoP D/Mo should always have enchants on, usually multiple, except for around 1 sec just after you CoP (the first thing you do after your CoP is cast one of your enchants).

Now i don't even bother with Scythe damage anymore. Their pbAOE is just too good. The only thing i use my Scythe for is Exhausting Strike for AOE Deep Wound, with a Cruel mod so the duration is still decent. I hardly care about the weakness, i don't really hit with my staff out of this attack skill.

I go 14 Mystic, 13 Wind, 9 Scythe, 6 Protection Prayers. Yes, i actually use 1 Sup and 1 Major, but i got +30 health on scythe and for some reason Dervish have 30 health more than other classes on their armor, so might as well take advantage of it!

I can do 96-92-92 nearby AoE every 10 sec (2 of which are Holy damage and hit everyone full strength), along with 9 sec of Cripple, 4 sec of burning. I can heal myself for a lot every 2 sec, and GAIN energy out of it. CoP gets rid usually of 3-4 hex/condition, heals me for around 200, and fills my 30E full. I'm ready to unleash again, because enchants have 5-8 sec recharge.

I use Clumsiness, Empathy, etc. for energy management, when i lack energy if no one is hitting on me i cast RoF and hit through. I survived SB/RI spike by CoPing everything.

EDenial is not very efficient, since throwing an EBurn on my RoF usually makes me lose only 1E, and i can take that... If you have a boon-prot behind, every RoF they throw on you is a NET 7E. Every other enchant can be used to boost your CoP, getting rid of more stuff, getting more health and energy.

Kiting isn't too easy with Balth's Form + CoPing my Grenth's Fingers to cripple nearby targets. Even without Balth's Form, picking a good trajectory for an interception and CoPing at a good timing will cripple. But kiting is still fairly efficient.

Spreading? Yes, sure, ofc you must. But if you have more than 1 melee, and the other team stays grouped, you spread HOW? One watches? It's nearby AOE, not adjacent, i killed people not even knowing they were there just because they ran by me while i was AOEing my target.

Diversion is one decent option, but you can't do that on 3-4 D/Mo. You can get one, he'll stop doing much for 6 sec, he's in really no danger if he has a monk behind because every RoF heals him an extra 40some health giving the monk awesome healing power, not mentioning fueling his energy like crazy. Otherwise, other D/Mo can pick Imbue Health and throw it on him for 250-300 health instant heals.

The only way i usually die is after a long time with no team support at all with 3-4 attackers on my back (if possible that use KD, etc) or by massive massive hexing (like 2-3 people dedicated on hexing me, i can't CoP all of it, and when i CoP and after it i'm hexed with Backfire + Shame before i can put enchants up much, i can't do much) The problem is, it requires a huge focus on the other team. I have no clue how 1 person could beat me on his own. I know it's a team game and not 1v1 ofc, but just like the other team has more than 1 person, the Dervish can have support too for the short moments where he's in danger.

Dervish has low AL, but such INSANE health/energy management, it doesn't matter. Not to mention that if you pick Balthazar's Form, 50% of the time you have 110 AL and 33% move speed. Not easy to kill that.

I honestly want to see Dervish nerfed, because i use it and it's just too easy and the AOEs are too powerful for the range. I got lots of glad's points just by rushing in first, taking all the damage/hexes/conditions the other team had to throw on me, CoP it, keep doing massive AOE and my team won. No healer most of the time at all.

The fixes i see necessary atm :

No massive Holy damage Nearby AOE. That's ridiculous. Ray of Judgement does less with much more energy, MUCH longer recharge, lower AOE, and it's smiting elite. That holy damage has to drop or to go.

Mysticism, the way the class is designed, can't be nerfed much. But i think it should be only 2 health per point (no CoP to full health plz). I think the energy gained is fine, considering enchant costs, etc, it would be quite hard to use with less, and i like how the Dervish is played. I love the class mind you, but i want it BALANCED, not staying overpowered too long and hit by a too heavy nerf bat afterwards.

And as restrictive as it is, Mysticism imo should work only with Dervish enchants. The synergy with RoF is WAY too powerful, and i don't really see a RoF nerf (it's not needed at all). Team enchants, enchant spam like RoF, they all make Mysticism BADLY broken. It would be fine and balanced and would offer a very interesting way of playing if it stays close to what it is but with Dervish enchants only. But stop the abuse you can do out of it with RoF.

Dervishes as they are now are seriously overpowered as i see them, and i don't think i usually use that word easily without thinking of potential counters. It's easy to say 'people didn't adapt', 'omg think of the counters', but the counters have very easy counters too (RoF-CoP counters nearly everything people said for counter up to now), and when it requires 2-3 people dedicated to stop 1 Dervish when the Dervish's team has 2-3 other players that can bash on them, it doesn't work.

And know that i'm not whining cause i lost to them and want them nerf so i can keep using my old things without bringing a counter. I'm always on the giving side, and I simply didn't face one thing yet that i considered a viable counter to me in dozens of games, and walked over some top guild teams (in TA, not GvG we didn't have enough) without a sweat and hardly any coordination, target calling, etc. using 3-4 D/Mo spamming enchant AOE.

Tinnic
30-07-2006, 00:29
I don't PvP much in the random arenas and mostly because of the utter frustration of having warrior owning everyone else in there. I am not a warrior person but I do appear to be a dervish person, which like warriors seem to own random arenas EASILY! I have gotten my first couple of gradiator points playing my dervish without even trying.

However, we must remember dervishes so far have the element of surprise. We don't know how to deal them yet. On top of that premades are very well made. Also everytime I have had a winning streak I was the only dervish in the team and we had a monk and a spear ranger. Fourth person first time (11 consecutive victories, 10 of them flawless) was a paragon and fourth person the second time was an e/mo (12 consecutive victories, 10 flawless). Both times we encountered teams with multiple dervishes and we owned them, some more easily than others. So really I can't say for certain that the dervish is overpowered. The monks both times were very, very good and the spear rangers are just scary! All I'll say is that the dervish is a lot simpler to PvP with than anything else I have tried (remember I never tried warriors).

Still I feel it in that dervishes will most likely be nerfed before release... and once again the random areanas will be the play ground of the wammos... :(

Nevre
30-07-2006, 00:36
Considering how HEAVILY dependant Dervishes are on Enchantments and how easy it is to strip Enchantments, no, they are not overpowered. Also keep in mind that they only have 70AL and seemingly very few good defensive skills.

I'm a bit dissapointed actually, but I'll have to play more to get a better judgement.

Given how most of their enchantments do something interesting when they end, and that the dervish will be stripping themselves of enchantments, you can feel free to ignore this post entirely.

Tinnic
30-07-2006, 01:41
Given how most of their enchantments do something interesting when they end, and that the dervish will be stripping themselves of enchantments, you can feel free to ignore this post entirely.

This is true. Dervish enchants are designed to come on and come off. Most do nothing while they are actually on other than increase the amount of attack you do with some scythe skills etc. Only sure way to beat a dervish is to not let him/her put enchants on in the first place and the only people who can do that are rangers (renew + interrupts), mesmers (shut down, theft, anti-casting hexes) and to a lesser extent assassins (shroud of silence + interrupts).

I was actually playing around with a modified pack huntner premade, I dumped the pet and put on poisons and took natures renewel. But I couldn't use the spirit as my team mates used hexes and enchants too :( So at least in random arena's dervish enchants are hard to counter.

Sir Pwn Your Mother
30-07-2006, 02:04
Dervishes don't seem all that overpowering to me. Obviously we've only played PvP with them, but they attack rather slow and have all the weaknesses of any melee class. If the enemy team bunches up and the AoE actually matters, then thats poor positioning on the part of the other team.. not the dervish being overpowered. They seem like they'll be infinitely more useful in PvE though..

Offatwork
30-07-2006, 02:06
and to a lesser extent assassins (shroud of silence + interrupts).


Count Shadow Shroud as well.

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 02:16
Count Shadow Shroud as well.

and power block, power leak, power spike :P

Arctus Redryn
30-07-2006, 02:24
I don't PvP much in the random arenas and mostly because of the utter frustration of having warrior owning everyone else in there.

Wait...what? Warriors can be countered fairly easily in Random Arena...I know because I have one.

Keyra
30-07-2006, 04:39
How can Backfire and Spiteful Spirit discourage CoP?! A CoP D/Mo should always have enchants on, usually multiple, except for around 1 sec just after you CoP (the first thing you do after your CoP is cast one of your enchants).

Now i don't even bother with Scythe damage anymore. Their pbAOE is just too good. The only thing i use my Scythe for is Exhausting Strike for AOE Deep Wound, with a Cruel mod so the duration is still decent. I hardly care about the weakness, i don't really hit with my staff out of this attack skill.

I go 14 Mystic, 13 Wind, 9 Scythe, 6 Protection Prayers. Yes, i actually use 1 Sup and 1 Major, but i got +30 health on scythe and for some reason Dervish have 30 health more than other classes on their armor, so might as well take advantage of it!

I can do 96-92-92 nearby AoE every 10 sec (2 of which are Holy damage and hit everyone full strength), along with 9 sec of Cripple, 4 sec of burning. I can heal myself for a lot every 2 sec, and GAIN energy out of it. CoP gets rid usually of 3-4 hex/condition, heals me for around 200, and fills my 30E full. I'm ready to unleash again, because enchants have 5-8 sec recharge.

I use Clumsiness, Empathy, etc. for energy management, when i lack energy if no one is hitting on me i cast RoF and hit through. I survived SB/RI spike by CoPing everything.

EDenial is not very efficient, since throwing an EBurn on my RoF usually makes me lose only 1E, and i can take that... If you have a boon-prot behind, every RoF they throw on you is a NET 7E. Every other enchant can be used to boost your CoP, getting rid of more stuff, getting more health and energy.

Kiting isn't too easy with Balth's Form + CoPing my Grenth's Fingers to cripple nearby targets. Even without Balth's Form, picking a good trajectory for an interception and CoPing at a good timing will cripple. But kiting is still fairly efficient.

Spreading? Yes, sure, ofc you must. But if you have more than 1 melee, and the other team stays grouped, you spread HOW? One watches? It's nearby AOE, not adjacent, i killed people not even knowing they were there just because they ran by me while i was AOEing my target.

Diversion is one decent option, but you can't do that on 3-4 D/Mo. You can get one, he'll stop doing much for 6 sec, he's in really no danger if he has a monk behind because every RoF heals him an extra 40some health giving the monk awesome healing power, not mentioning fueling his energy like crazy. Otherwise, other D/Mo can pick Imbue Health and throw it on him for 250-300 health instant heals.

The only way i usually die is after a long time with no team support at all with 3-4 attackers on my back (if possible that use KD, etc) or by massive massive hexing (like 2-3 people dedicated on hexing me, i can't CoP all of it, and when i CoP and after it i'm hexed with Backfire + Shame before i can put enchants up much, i can't do much) The problem is, it requires a huge focus on the other team. I have no clue how 1 person could beat me on his own. I know it's a team game and not 1v1 ofc, but just like the other team has more than 1 person, the Dervish can have support too for the short moments where he's in danger.

Dervish has low AL, but such INSANE health/energy management, it doesn't matter. Not to mention that if you pick Balthazar's Form, 50% of the time you have 110 AL and 33% move speed. Not easy to kill that.

I honestly want to see Dervish nerfed, because i use it and it's just too easy and the AOEs are too powerful for the range. I got lots of glad's points just by rushing in first, taking all the damage/hexes/conditions the other team had to throw on me, CoP it, keep doing massive AOE and my team won. No healer most of the time at all.

The fixes i see necessary atm :

No massive Holy damage Nearby AOE. That's ridiculous. Ray of Judgement does less with much more energy, MUCH longer recharge, lower AOE, and it's smiting elite. That holy damage has to drop or to go.

Mysticism, the way the class is designed, can't be nerfed much. But i think it should be only 2 health per point (no CoP to full health plz). I think the energy gained is fine, considering enchant costs, etc, it would be quite hard to use with less, and i like how the Dervish is played. I love the class mind you, but i want it BALANCED, not staying overpowered too long and hit by a too heavy nerf bat afterwards.

And as restrictive as it is, Mysticism imo should work only with Dervish enchants. The synergy with RoF is WAY too powerful, and i don't really see a RoF nerf (it's not needed at all). Team enchants, enchant spam like RoF, they all make Mysticism BADLY broken. It would be fine and balanced and would offer a very interesting way of playing if it stays close to what it is but with Dervish enchants only. But stop the abuse you can do out of it with RoF.

Dervishes as they are now are seriously overpowered as i see them, and i don't think i usually use that word easily without thinking of potential counters. It's easy to say 'people didn't adapt', 'omg think of the counters', but the counters have very easy counters too (RoF-CoP counters nearly everything people said for counter up to now), and when it requires 2-3 people dedicated to stop 1 Dervish when the Dervish's team has 2-3 other players that can bash on them, it doesn't work.

And know that i'm not whining cause i lost to them and want them nerf so i can keep using my old things without bringing a counter. I'm always on the giving side, and I simply didn't face one thing yet that i considered a viable counter to me in dozens of games, and walked over some top guild teams (in TA, not GvG we didn't have enough) without a sweat and hardly any coordination, target calling, etc. using 3-4 D/Mo spamming enchant AOE.

Patccmoi wins. Are you people just ignoring this post?

erolla
30-07-2006, 13:02
Hey, I found the counter for these cop spike:D
bring EoE! and 7 other grups of sacrificer
and then when all of the dervish come, kill yourselves! yay
you die, they die

punish them in eoe classic way
unless they find the eoe and kill it tho I kind of doubt it since they are so high on their head about that abusable build~~

Xunlai Agent
30-07-2006, 13:13
Patccmoi wins. Are you people just ignoring this post?
they usually do ignore his posts, which is quite tragic seeing how much he knows and how much he shares here...

Kelwind Mickey
30-07-2006, 13:17
Well Dervishes are definitely getting a nerf, atleast Heart of Holy Flame, Grenth's Fingers and Balthazar's Rage are in some way. The D/Mo builds that are liek teh new IWAY, being run in HoH is crazy, i've went up against it and played it several times (free fame ftw!), it's like a spike, though most pug teams don't bother with spiking and just spam the skills randomly which sadly enough, works for most of the time.

Yeah at first I mostly played RA for the weekend and well I completely overlooked Dervishes and Paragons as well crappy classes, as I owned them *cough* But then I was doing HA and got owned by these damn D/Mo builds and whatnot, never went up against a Pack Hunter team though =/

erolla
30-07-2006, 13:21
btw.
I see that dervish/monk team starts to loose in HA
way to go:D

Aldora
30-07-2006, 13:48
I think many people may think the dervish is " over powering" because so many people are being them so when they attack in pvp and are near each other it is a pretty big AoE spike. Once Nightfall comes out the amount of dervishes will decrease making less of a chance for this spike. And for there weapon it can be high powered but there is a huge range (9-41) and it is not a very fast attack speed. Like raisenero said they do have weaknesses just like every other character type in this game making it ~~ BALANCED ~~


So, when Nightfall hits, the new standard buld will be 2 monks and 6 dervs. Because if it's anything like Factions, the bad guys will almost always come in clumps.

Nanashi
30-07-2006, 13:51
anyone else think they are too power full , i mean look at their skills, no class can escape from them, and the sins will be dying all over them now, dont ya think the sin needs a major buff now, and their attacks do AoE damamge + a condition after enchantment ends ,aint this a bit unbalanced?

Sins had the same problem when they were first introduced. Bottom line is that nobody knows enough about the new classes to make a strat to defeat them for the moment. CoP seems to be the major problem most people are haveing... sure it'll be nerfed after the next FPE but why don't people start useing energy drains and such. ^_^


So, when Nightfall hits, the new standard buld will be 2 monks and 6 dervs. Because if it's anything like Factions, the bad guys will almost always come in clumps.

I can tell ya that yer gunna see quite a few W/D in IWAY. The AEs are nice and crucial, put that with some speed skills and bam you'll own.

Aiko
30-07-2006, 14:48
CoP seems to be the major problem most people are haveing... sure it'll be nerfed after the next FPE but why don't people start useing energy drains and such. ^_^


Because they're an energy refueling monster? Who cares about a bit of energy drain when it's coming back in so fast. Just like I couldn't care less about any type of energy drain (other than maybe shackles) on my assassin, regen is so fast.

I can stand fairly evenly with any class with my necro, assassin or ele but the dervish is just ridiculous. Before you even know it you're snared, on fire and being hit for 100 holy damage a strike, he doesn't even need to be in melee range. Degen him? You gotta be kidding, he can just ignore it and mow me down and worry about my hexes later.

We had one team in RA where we killed all their team except the one Signet of Piety spamming Dervish. It took a full 4 people over a minute or more to bring him down, the healing was ridiculous.

SS, Insidious Parasite and Empathy? What does he care? He's doing 100 damage to your 20-30 and has far more healing. He can afford to just hammer through the damage and just heal after he's left you as a stain on the floor. I unloaded a full GPS spike into a lone D/Mo this evening which as most assassins would know will pretty much equal a kill on most players and he's ...... guess what ...... at 90% health and no conditions after I finish my attack. Yeehaw.

Kiting? Better hope you're a kiting specific ranger or ele/me loaded with illusion and ice. Just remember he can snare too and run at +33% even if we ignore CoP.

Yes, a very specific anti-dervish Me, N/Me or kiting ranger can beat them (and even then not always) or slow them down. That's still not balanced.

Nothing about the class's fundamental philosophy is a problem. The idea is actually quite cool and original, it's just the degree. If they keep the basic idea and just reduce the sheer power of the numbers then it'll be a great class. Less holy, less range, less sheer damage, less energy.

Pat's suggestion about Mysticism only working with Dervish skills is a good start. As is reducing the radius of their AE.

Akirai Annuvil
30-07-2006, 15:03
A good meleeing Dervish will hit multiple targets. SS, IP and Empathy will hit multiple times. =100-200 armor ignoring damage a swing Not 20-30 :/ Also Arcane Echo Well of the Profane, cast it on two corpses and all Dervishes become useless while you/your teammates kill them with ranged spells/arrows/spears. Wasn't that easy?

zweistein
30-07-2006, 15:45
seems like someone in Anet didnt learn 'Ether Renewal' lesson, spamable energy and health gain in one is recipe for doom ...

Rook0792
30-07-2006, 15:53
Remember this is only a Beta. So don't be surprised if Mysticsm ends up only working on dervish enchants, and all the recharge times of skills (and the ability to overlap) them is heavily modified next time we see the dervishes.

Personally I'm glad they made them over powered because I'm at least looking forward to playing a dervish now. The factions beta left me very disappointed with the new classes and not wanting to play them at all.

Zagan
30-07-2006, 16:01
I admit i havent read the thread ...and i admit im a lurker ... but seriously whenever something new arises on the horizon i see thread popping up like this one ,OVERPOWERED ....

People this games's quite balanced dont search for overpowerd there and here ...most of the time the game designers have thought of the results their creation might cause ...

Besides this is just a Beta cherish the moment :)
The class aint overpowerd try looking for possible counters and youll see that you can defeat dervishes in many creative ways ...

Just turn on your brain ...please !!

Wiseblade
30-07-2006, 16:06
Because they're an energy refueling monster? Who cares about a bit of energy drain when it's coming back in so fast. Just like I couldn't care less about any type of energy drain (other than maybe shackles) on my assassin, regen is so fast.

I can stand fairly evenly with any class with my necro, assassin or ele but the dervish is just ridiculous. Before you even know it you're snared, on fire and being hit for 100 holy damage a strike, he doesn't even need to be in melee range. Degen him? You gotta be kidding, he can just ignore it and mow me down and worry about my hexes later.

We had one team in RA where we killed all their team except the one Signet of Piety spamming Dervish. It took a full 4 people over a minute or more to bring him down, the healing was ridiculous.

SS, Insidious Parasite and Empathy? What does he care? He's doing 100 damage to your 20-30 and has far more healing. He can afford to just hammer through the damage and just heal after he's left you as a stain on the floor. I unloaded a full GPS spike into a lone D/Mo this evening which as most assassins would know will pretty much equal a kill on most players and he's ...... guess what ...... at 90% health and no conditions after I finish my attack. Yeehaw.

Kiting? Better hope you're a kiting specific ranger or ele/me loaded with illusion and ice. Just remember he can snare too and run at +33% even if we ignore CoP.

Yes, a very specific anti-dervish Me, N/Me or kiting ranger can beat them (and even then not always) or slow them down. That's still not balanced.

Nothing about the class's fundamental philosophy is a problem. The idea is actually quite cool and original, it's just the degree. If they keep the basic idea and just reduce the sheer power of the numbers then it'll be a great class. Less holy, less range, less sheer damage, less energy.

Pat's suggestion about Mysticism only working with Dervish skills is a good start. As is reducing the radius of their AE.

At least this I can understand. I've seen people asking for Dervishes to me moved to 60AL ans 20EN! A tweak in mysticism would be fair, and tweaked my build in case of just such a change. Still, people moaning there is not way to stop them are really blind. Skills like Shadow Shroud and Well of the Profane would deny Dervishes of their enchants before the can run in and wreck a party. A there's such a thing as Daze y'know. It works wonders at prevening the casting of those 'immortality' skills. :wink:

ferralboy
30-07-2006, 16:06
I would like to see some of the enchantments become forms, then there could be a limit of 1 form at a time, like you can only be in one stance at a time.

Sorale
30-07-2006, 16:10
Well of the profane doesn't work on dervish enchants.

Buddah
30-07-2006, 16:17
Sins had the same problem when they were first introduced. Bottom line is that nobody knows enough about the new classes to make a strat to defeat them for the moment. CoP seems to be the major problem most people are haveing... sure it'll be nerfed after the next FPE but why don't people start useing energy drains and such. ^_^

Actually right now the best ways to dealwith Dervishes are simply mesmers that Echo Diversion to shut down those spammable skills or just to Daze them (Only the Avatar of Melandru can avoid this bad fate).


SS, IP and Empathy will hit multiple times.
Last time I check Spiteful Spirit didn't trigger multiple times on a single attack.



I'm going to say we'll also see a 1 second recharge dropped onto Signet of Piety when an enchantment is removed. As is it's the best signet heal in the game, the loss of many team wide enchants to it are of small concern. The enchants in the Earth line are frequently 3/4 second and are easy to get up and sac of right away to the signet for the secondary effect.

Wiseblade
30-07-2006, 16:23
Well of the profane doesn't work on dervish enchants.
That must be a glitch. There's no way Anet wouldn't let the well work. The description of the skill itself says 'all enchantments'.

zweistein
30-07-2006, 16:27
aehm ...

Desecrate Enchantements (aka: gg, devish team)

Die In Basra
30-07-2006, 16:28
I haven't read all 9 pages, but I have to say, calling anything overpowered after it being introduced for only three days is completely ludicrous.


Actually right now the best ways to dealwith Dervishes are simply mesmers that Echo Diversion
Echo? You meant mantra of recovery, of course.

Aldora
30-07-2006, 17:02
I have been attempting to play RA with my bonder which I have discovered is rendered completely useless with dervishes (dervishi?) on the opposing team.

First of all, the dervs keep removing the life bonds and second, since a bonder doesn't carry healing spells, one hit by a derv that causes bleeding and I am dead. The scythe does too much damage for me to kite until the bleeding stops. I simply bleed to death in a matter of seconds.

I tried modifying the build to incorporate some healing abilities and was chastized by my group "What kind of bonder uses healing prayers??" Answer: The kind that wants to live beyond one swipe of the scythe.

I will be so glad for Monday when my bonder can play in relative peace again.

secretkid
30-07-2006, 17:04
I played the devirsh during all the event and i find it overpowered too...

One day I was with my sister (a warrior with healing hand) and myselft (D/Mo) and we own a full team of melee fighter in Team Arena. And I was playing the role of the tanker...

PLZ nerf devirsh to give more challenge when playing with em!

Arctus Redryn
30-07-2006, 17:13
aehm ...

Desecrate Enchantements (aka: gg, devish team)

Ahem, please read the thread. Dervishes are using Contemplation on THEMSELVES to remove their OWN ENCHANTMENTS... :wink:

As for Well of Profane, move out of the well...not that most of the enemy team will have time to set up the well, as the range of the Dervish enchantments is quite large, so most the enemy team will be struck by nearly all of the enchantments.

Sorale
30-07-2006, 17:21
Well of the Profane works like this:


Enemy dies, well goes up. All enchants in the area are stripped.
Dervish can cast spells that are self cast--Dust Cloak, Aura of Thorns, and all that. If you can cast it on others, it won't work, though.
If you walk out of the well and back in, your enchants are stripped again.
The effects still go off.

WingspanTT
30-07-2006, 17:27
I have to say that Dervishes wreck spirit rits who clump up bad. I saw a teammate put down 5 spirits, all ot be killed (with the rit) in less than 5 seconds when a dervish ran in!

Sekia
30-07-2006, 17:35
Devrishes are quite over powered and I think the range of there AoE skills are to big (There scythe range is ok but the other moves are like huge) Because I haven't really tested it but just going by memory and the range I can get hit at because when they use say Rage of Balthazar it hits almost as big as the agro circle and it can kill spirits easy even when you try to split them up from normal AoE damage.

Iv'e also noticed it when I was playing one when I used Aura of Thorns I was able to criple people in a very large radius. (Sorry if im wrong on any of this)

Wiseblade
30-07-2006, 20:02
I have been attempting to play RA with my bonder which I have discovered is rendered completely useless with dervishes (dervishi?) on the opposing team.

First of all, the dervs keep removing the life bonds and second, since a bonder doesn't carry healing spells, one hit by a derv that causes bleeding and I am dead. The scythe does too much damage for me to kite until the bleeding stops. I simply bleed to death in a matter of seconds.

I tried modifying the build to incorporate some healing abilities and was chastized by my group "What kind of bonder uses healing prayers??" Answer: The kind that wants to live beyond one swipe of the scythe.

I will be so glad for Monday when my bonder can play in relative peace again.
This is the very attitude that annoys me. People reluctant to change their builds and adapt, so just call for a nerf so they can stop thinking again.

Keyra
30-07-2006, 21:48
Hey Wiseblade, read post #60 and try to adapt.

Karstark
31-07-2006, 00:04
Skills like Shadow Shroud and Well of the Profane would deny Dervishes of their enchants before the can run in and wreck a party. A there's such a thing as Daze y'know. It works wonders at prevening the casting of those 'immortality' skills. :wink:

the well of profane thing has been said to not work so I thought I might add the same thing for Shadow Shroud.

If u have shadow shroud on you and cast enchantments that only work on you the enchantments works. Trust me I tried. But if you still dont believe me try it on the ele on isle of the nameless and you'll see.

Shadow shroud only works on enchantments that can target other allies aswell.

suikoden
31-07-2006, 00:19
Run this build and tell me you arent overpowered or feel godlike and unkillable.

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=413610

This is just a version also , there are many other like it out there some even more dangerous.

Super Kenny
31-07-2006, 00:54
They are WAY too overpowered as it is now. My guild usually bspike at HA every night and we just gave up after a few runs, getting owned by dervishes.

If we kept moving, it was easy to avoid damage, but each time we had to spike(not move) for a measly 1-2 second, we would be dead.

To those who say -enchant strip- they get power from enchanting their own strips, so you're most likely to help them.

Arterra
31-07-2006, 04:33
Agree. They are bulldozing every single build in HA now. The AoE spells range are just too big. Self heal, great energy management, hex and condition removal, imba and AoE dmg, what more can you ask for?

Zingeri
31-07-2006, 04:34
Agree. They are bulldozing every single build in HA now. The AoE spells range are just too big. Self heal, great energy management, hex and condition removal, imba and AoE dmg, what more can you ask for?Skimpy armor. :grin:

Kakashi Chan
31-07-2006, 07:44
/Hands Anet the Nerf Bat....

Nanashi
31-07-2006, 09:41
This is the very attitude that annoys me. People reluctant to change their builds and adapt, so just call for a nerf so they can stop thinking again.

Exactly. Pure ignorance, blame everybody but the person that makes the observation. Same thing happened to sins and a little towards the ritualists during the first PVP weekend. It's rediculious.

That beign said. Yes the dervs are over powered. It was rediculious but I know well enough that these will not be the same dervs we will see upon release to not really complain about it.

SuXxorz
31-07-2006, 20:04
Direct combat ( no running no tactics )...

Dervish > Warriors > Assassin

Spike Potential

Assassin > Warrior > Dervish

Take into account, dervish's lack any sort of KD or disrupting scythe attack and relies heavily on enchants... Those "uber" builds in RA/TA could not take down a monk at all (they relied on target being stationary)... WHen I built myself to take down a monk as a dervish, I would die easily in a few secs just like anyone else...

Also Note- These are "TEAM" Games... Otherwise Mesmers would dominate most with their domination skills and whatever...

And there's a thing called tactics... If u spread out, aoe means nothing... (I've played in games and using skills similar to those "uber" builds, a dervish's damage is nothing more than flies if the enemy team plays correctly... for instance protective spirit/spirit bond protects very well against them)

And yes dervish at the moment without the old classes receiving any new skills, are slightly stronger... Not hugely overpowered like some make it out to be... In otherwords I'd only reduce spells like Balthazar's rage from ~106 max ( attr:16) to maybe 80-88 max...And maybe buff up the after effects of some of the enchants/spells...

Edit: I'd like to add, I do remember the devs saying they wanted all classes to beable to heal themselves more adequately... Maybe this chapter is IT!... In that case, a nerf may not at all be necessary for the dervish...

Avatus Culire
31-07-2006, 20:26
Nerf them!

Nevre
01-08-2006, 00:01
And there's a thing called tactics... If u spread out, aoe means nothing... (I've played in games and using skills similar to those "uber" builds, a dervish's damage is nothing more than flies if the enemy team plays correctly... for instance protective spirit/spirit bond protects very well against them)


Of course, people might not be limiting their views to PvP.
I was more thinking along the lines of PvE where it seems like they will be doing as much (perhaps more) AoE damage as elementalists in their current form.

As for those other people saying "Oh, my x could beat them".

In a rock, paper scissors world your particular scissors can beat the nuke that is dervish, but nuke still beats rock and paper.

Vexed Arcanist
01-08-2006, 00:16
Enchantment recycle time = doubled. This will likely tone down and greatly balance the Dervish. Hell go look at other professions and recycles. Most of the mediocre mesmer skills have 30-45 recycle, not 8-12. Even if you disregard Mysticism+CoP and the mad, mad, mad healing and energy gain and removing conditions and hexes, even Signet of Piety on a D/W is pretty damn strong.

Ensui
01-08-2006, 00:33
Agreed, bring up the recharge time of those spells. Balthz's Rage has a 5 second recharge for 100 unadulterated damage, for Chrissakes.

I just hope with all my heart that they don't put a nerf on CoP simply because it was abused by a Dervish build. :\

SuXxorz
01-08-2006, 00:39
Of course, people might not be limiting their views to PvP.
I was more thinking along the lines of PvE where it seems like they will be doing as much (perhaps more) AoE damage as elementalists in their current form.

As for those other people saying "Oh, my x could beat them".

In a rock, paper scissors world your particular scissors can beat the nuke that is dervish, but nuke still beats rock and paper.

PVP is where this game is at... There's a reason it's called "Guild Wars"... There's a reason farming builds exists... Lets not beat a dead horse...

I'm not going into your rock, paper scissors, it's not relevent to what I'm saying... Hey lets nerf mesmers then, cause they can beat most classes one on one... O lets nerf warriors then, cause they can kill an assassin and so many other soft targets in direct combat...pfft

And other guy... yes enchants could probably probably have alittle longer recharge, but not alot... double is EXTREME... Dervishs rely heavily on enchants, lets not force them to go to the monk lines to be efficient and end up being a "wammo" vs "wammo" match!... Something needs to be done about reversal of fortune and guardian... Maybe Mysticism should only work for dervish enchants should be done also...

GodHead
01-08-2006, 01:08
We already have Ele, Ranger, Necro, Assassin and Paragon who have energy management as their primary attribute, and while they all play differently and offer different playstyles do we really need another "GET ENERGY!!! LOL!!!" primary attribute?

I think the solution would be to keep the health gain for mysticism, but totally drop the energy gain. The class already has 4 pips, let them make do on that, it would cut down on the spam-ability of their enchants, and force them to do some real energy management. After all the health gain is only a problem while they are spamming their enchantments, which is only made possible by the energy gain they get from Mysticism. Drop the energy gain, and the health gain is no longer a problem and becomes a unique style of primary attribute.

I XM
01-08-2006, 02:55
We already have Ele, Ranger, Necro, Assassin and Paragon who have energy management as their primary attribute, and while they all play differently and offer different playstyles do we really need another "GET ENERGY!!! LOL!!!" primary attribute?
No energy management primary for a class that uses mostly skills = expertise abuse. Why do you think all the classses they made after Prophecies that have a weapon attribute had an energy management primary with a twist making it better to stick to using as primary rather than secondary on a ranger abusing expertise? It works with assassins and dervishes because of their specific setups. Some of the best assassin skills are in Critical Strikes and it provides better energy management than expertise except for spamming long chains of 10E skills of which there are only 3 in Dagger Mastery. Expertise won't do anything for enchants and several scythe attack skills work off enchants somehow and dervish use defensive/offensive enchants rather than stances or non-spell skills. It more or less works for Paragons because most of their spear skills and several of their other expertise-affected skills use adrenaline or have appropriate cooldowns comensurate with their energy cost. There are a few exceptions like that lighting furyzon-wannabe skill in the pre-made. When skills are balanced with a high energy cost to make them unspammable but have a low recharge, you can exploit expertise and achieve better damage with the same skill than the primary by spamming these few skills over and over again.

It's sad that they have to add energy-management+something or energy management + adrenaline skills just to discourage the use of expertise. I hope they use a more interesting primary for the 4th chapter (if any) and work on the energy management maybe by using a very powerful skill that does both energy management and something else from the primary attribute of that class. Ofc this would restrict the realistic choices of that class to only 7 skills (-rez), but that's the price to pay.

After playing more as a Dervish and against them this weekend, I think the nerf cries are a bit pre-mature. Sure a mild balancing of the AoE enchants such as holy --> fire or increasing the recharges to 15s would be appropriate. And maybe the energy gain of Mysticism should be reduced from 1 per 2 levels to 1 per 3 level along with reducing the cost of several of the more expensive dervish enchants.

I think people are whining excessively however. Can't beat a RoF spammer? Use Diversion? Knockdowns? A lot of enchants, maybe try Nature's Renewal, multiple Desecrates, Well of the Profane? Don't clump together? Massive spike damage on several party members: bring some Ritualists? Signet of Piety is a signet, duh. Now could there be any skills that can be used against signets? It's 1 second cast time, plenty for complicate, and you can add rust or something before to make it super super easy if you are super super slow or sorts of existing or future skills against signets or anything else that would delay it and make it unspammable. etc... etc... Yes naming counters to something is easy you'll say. But isn't being prepared and aware of the metagame a significant part of any skill deck game?

And we have to keep in mind we haven't seen the new skills that other classes will have. Maybe mesmers will have a new short recharge hex that drains energy when target gains or loses enchants? Maybe Necros will get a more damaging version of Soul Barbs that also works when targets lose an enchant. Maybe warriors will get skills that do extra damage/conditions/effects to enchanted targets? Rend Enchantments (long recharge, I know) or Order of Apostasy does a specific effect for monk enchants. Maybe something similar for Dervish enchants but which deals damage to them? Who knows what counter skills are waiting. Anet sure sometimes make silly mistakes or misses some possible silly skill combinations (like triggering Sand Shards with Exhausting Assault) but I don't think they are retarded to the point of having designed a new class that fights in quite a different way and yet did not add any new counters to them in the new skills that the other classes get. Think of Factions and the skills that the core classes got that were relevant to countering the new classes, although those two were not a very significant departure from the mechanics of Prophecies.

Over-nerfing leads to assassins: Virtually unused in FotM land aka HA. Mostly useless and sub-par in PvE. Used only in very limited roles in GvG.

I don't want to buy another chapter with a class that has been gimped because people couldn't wait and learn the new skills they are given to use as counters and before the weaknesses of the new classes become clearer. Less whining, more waiting to see the whole picture and using that thing a lot of people here seem to dislike using: the brain.

SteveLord
01-08-2006, 04:14
nerf em.

they wont be gimped...get over it.

neoflame
01-08-2006, 04:29
Diversion also works against Ether Renewal, Oath Shot, and Balthazar's Aura. Hey, let's bring back ER smite, spirit spam, and BA stacking!

Saxgod
01-08-2006, 04:38
I don't really feel that the proffession is overpowered. I remember people were claiming that the assassins were overpowered as well, but we saw how that turned out.

I think that its hard to judge just yet. As for all their AoE stuff, its all enchantments that can be broken and cause major damage to the caster and person it is on... its strong agianst some classes, but weak against others.

neoflame
01-08-2006, 05:11
I don't really feel that the proffession is overpowered. I remember people were claiming that the assassins were overpowered as well, but we saw how that turned out.
Yeah: those people were basing their claims off RA and Temple Strike (which was nerfed to hell anyway.) Did you look in observer mode during the weekend at all?

Sorale
01-08-2006, 05:29
Yeah: those people were basing their claims off RA and Temple Strike (which was nerfed to hell anyway.) Did you look in observer mode during the weekend at all?

GvG was a joke this weekend. Dervish/Monks everywhere.

peasant
01-08-2006, 09:44
i wonder how overpowered dervishs would have been perceived if more ppl had realized that spirit bond enables one to tank 8 demos without taking damage at all....

Jarrean
18-08-2006, 23:54
It might be not to hard to nerf if they didnt call the "dervish enchantments" enchantments, then CoP and RoF wouldnt be so powerfull for a dervish.

Fenix Aurion
25-08-2006, 01:33
I think that for nightfall, they need to fix the dervish and peragon a bit. For dervish, they're 2 overpowered. Their scythes can atck 3 targets and do more dmg than warrior hammers. Also, their skills are sorta 2 powerful. As for paragon, they need to make them better. I think that they need some better skills but other than that, they're pretty balanced.

critical vengeance
25-08-2006, 02:31
I think that for nightfall, they need to fix the dervish and peragon a bit. For dervish, they're 2 overpowered. Their scythes can atck 3 targets and do more dmg than warrior hammers. Also, their skills are sorta 2 powerful. As for paragon, they need to make them better. I think that they need some better skills but other than that, they're pretty balanced.

didn't you say you missed the event? I say try it :) paragons are pretty powerful and the 2 classes have not had all their skills out yet, and the most tweaks have not been done yet. Paragons i do believe are very balanced, even the pack hunter is balanced.. emapthy and ss is their bane. The dervish though is pretty powerful when the use of CoP is used. They need to balance them a bit more, tuning them down slightly but not too much.

Darko the MM
25-08-2006, 21:26
http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_id=CwbObW1j5QM&eurl=http%3A//ironforza.proboards50.com/index.cgi%3Fboard%3Dderv%26action%3Ddisplay%26thre ad%3D1156048715&iurl=http%3A//sjl-static1.sjl.youtube.com/vi/CwbObW1j5QM/2.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskJqt7zZetvCdpPHS_AbAPpJ

Lol, but seriously, if ANet nerfs the actual dervish itself, there's going to be trouble...