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Hari Iyer
29-07-2006, 02:17
hey, im not sure if this point has been brought up yet, but do you guys find that a ranged character with 80 armor is slightly imbalanced?

i mean, the fact that this thing can shout, uses adrenal skills, and has the same armor as a warrior, doesn't that make it sort of a ranged warrior?

Am i the only one who sees this as imbalanced?

Schmerdro
29-07-2006, 03:13
A good warrior has 100 armor, not 80, and spears have the range of a shortbow (unlike a good ranger who uses longbow and recurve bow).

HyperNathan
29-07-2006, 04:10
Actually, with a shield, a Paragon has 96 armor. But a good warrior always has 100-150 armor. Nothing will ever touch the warrior for defense.

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 06:23
A Paragon with Warrior secondary will have good armor!

96 + Watch Yourself(20) and whatnot! :D

Hard to kill, but not as hard as a good Warrior!

duward
29-07-2006, 07:38
yup but hard to kill non the less .. and their party wide buffs are great .. especially when paired with a dervish ... sweeping damage = sweeping effects ... and given that dervish enchants affect foes around them .. fun though ... ^^

Hari Iyer
29-07-2006, 08:15
A good warrior has 100 armor, not 80, and spears have the range of a shortbow (unlike a good ranger who uses longbow and recurve bow).

shortbows have fast attack speeds, just like spears. Shortbows are good and they have their place.

Skye Marin
29-07-2006, 08:56
The Paragon's high armor and survivability is a benefit.

The only downside to taking one with you in your party, is you have to make room for it.

Xavatar
29-07-2006, 08:58
i don't think paragon's 80 armor is imba...i think dervishes with scythes that do 9-41 is a little imbalanced though. perhaps they can tone the damage or attack speed down a little.

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 09:22
Scythes have a huge damage-range though, an unlucky Derv may end up with a lot of hits in the lower end of the spectrum (closer to the 9 than the 41).

Psychotic
29-07-2006, 09:25
paragons will do better pve i think than pvp. i see very easily that there could be groups of paragon/ranger/assassin/warriors mainly/only. Paragons can offer huge boosts to classes that often attack.

Zombyrad
29-07-2006, 09:35
Although I like the paragon and it's ability to use spears and shouts, I find it weird a support and ranged char (that will stay in the backlines during battle) like the paragon has such a high armor. I think they should rather give Assasins and Dervish an armor of 80, they are the melee range chars besides warrior...

Xavatar
29-07-2006, 13:00
paragons will do better pve i think than pvp.

Perhaps one day the paragon will find its place in pvp, but i think this statement is quite right in general.
I'm thinking of making my paragon going full spear damage, with little support skills. Must juggle those skills though...paragons are meant to be a support/damage enhancing class.

Zaden Golorath
29-07-2006, 13:08
Well I don't think the paragon's place is really in the backlines all the time. I believe the paragon is supposed to move around and such. For example, for the shout or chant to effect everyone in the party, you probably might want to be somewhere in the middle.

Zombyrad
29-07-2006, 13:19
Well I don't think the paragon's place is really in the backlines all the time.

Maybe, but I'm just trying to say that paragons have quite a high armor for their place on the battlefield, especially when you know that dervish and assasin have weaker armor and have to be in melee range to be useful.

Jhanto Gun
29-07-2006, 18:01
Well I don't think the paragon's place is really in the backlines all the time. I believe the paragon is supposed to move around and such. For example, for the shout or chant to effect everyone in the party, you probably might want to be somewhere in the middle.

I agree, this is one of the things I noticed. you have to be close to your allies to function well and this creates lots of problems. interupters and hexers got me real good but melees even with 2 or more opponents I survived much of the time.

in order to thier job, they definetely need high armor, they have many weakness that some secondary profession could fix but there goes the skill slots. pvp will be diffiult but with the right team they will be better. they will also be top list targets in hoh and gvg, thier buffs are deadly if they are left alone (it will help the monks a lot also). they will have thier place but they have many weakness also.

we still have to check lots of thier skills and time will tell if they will good in pvp. as to pve, paragons will be fine the way they are right now. also, I think leadership should buff the spear mastery line, it will help a lot for spear paragons.

Khift
29-07-2006, 21:58
The problem with paragons is that most people do not know where they fit in quite yet. Dervishes are obvious -- if you want pressure, pull out a Warrior and squish in a Dervish, but nobod has really explored the depth of the Paragon support capabilities yet and so nobody is willing to pull a Mesmer or Elementalist out of a build just to put a Paragon in.

Phoebus
29-07-2006, 23:29
Paragons spearmens are more like axe warriors. They have a high base DPS, they have deepwound, they have +damage skills.
There's nothing remotely similar to a mesmer or an elementalist in paragon's skillset.

I XM
30-07-2006, 00:38
P/Mo with wand/shield and no points in spear. A high armour backline bard/healer! Yay!

Skig Galco
30-07-2006, 01:13
actually, the +80 armor is extremely balanced for the paragon. all classes start off the same:
60 AL
20 Energy
+2 regen

now, each class sacrifices something for another. warriors give up more energy AND regen for the extra armor, as does the paragon. assassin and dervish forsake clanky metal for more energy and faster regen, as do the casters. where the paragon to give up AL, the "balance" would give them more energy/regen. anyone who has played a support paragon knows that the energy management is already EXCELLENT. to give me either more to play with, or a faster regen is to allow me to make a group FAR to powerful for balance sake.

also, paragons do NOT belong on the back lines with the casters, or the frontline with the melee. they stand in the dead middle, casting shouts that assist both sides equally. since they stand in the middle, it's only fair that they get "middle" armor. it's not the AL of a tank ((100+ unbuffed)), nor the armor of a caster ((60)). believe it or not, this is TYPICAL of support classes of this nature. DAOC's music classes, the EQ bard, and the DnD Cleric are all examples of a support class wearing bigger than caster armor.

Phoebus
30-07-2006, 15:50
Paragons have +10 Energy and +20 AL, which makes their armor balanced.

False Visage
30-07-2006, 16:32
Also Assassins and Dervishes are wearing lighter armours. Warrior and Paragon armour is visibly heavier and tougher and after all, what use is an Assassin's stealth when their full plate mail clanks worse than a church bell?

Zombyrad
30-07-2006, 21:19
Also Assassins and Dervishes are wearing lighter armours. Warrior and Paragon armour is visibly heavier and tougher and after all, what use is an Assassin's stealth when their full plate mail clanks worse than a church bell?
Just to remind you Assasins (and any other class in gw) has no negative effect from using armor that 'might' be too heavy for the char, just because there is no weight/level req. on the armors. Also, i don't see an Assasin actively use his 'stealthness', like an always +10% chance to evade or something.

OsirisThain
30-07-2006, 21:30
Just to remind you Assasins (and any other class in gw) has no negative effect from using armor that 'might' be too heavy for the char, just because there is no weight/level req. on the armors. Also, i don't see an Assasin actively use his 'stealthness', like an always +10% chance to evade or something.

Yes, but its too keep it in perspective... Otherwise what would there be to stop a warrior from having 20inch thich plates?

And the assassin uses energy for its attacks so it can kill stuff immediately, the warrior because it ist stealthy has to build up adrenaline before it can do damage ;)

Akisame Kiyoraba
30-07-2006, 23:09
In games where stealth isn't a primary factor for a rogue class, they generally do have higher armor; In some DnD or DnD rule based games, they can equip elven chain, studded leather, or sometimes even normal chain. However, it penalizes their ability to stealth, and the effectiveness of their thief skills, such as pick-lock or pick-pocket, and in 3.0 and higher, caps the amount of AC recieved from dexterity as well. In Daoc, rogues without stealth are called light tanks. They have better base armor, a level above normal rogues (Roughly 80 AL in GW terms), and fight by chaining together certain attacks, usually with the third in the chain, the "dual attack", dealing massive damage.Thats basically what assassins are in GW... except they have lower armor, lower base damage, and nothing to compensate for it.

Besides, its a fantasy game, and fantasy games don't have to make sense. Before they removed global armor absorbtion from warriors, Gladiators + 1 piece of Knights was officially the "Best" armor combination. Apparently wearing a leather/metal hybrid bra, for both male and females, makes for the best defense when fighting off dwarves. Thats right, the Stone Summit dwarves always go for the nipples :shocked:

Orgim Doomhammer
07-08-2006, 07:09
In games where stealth isn't a primary factor for a rogue class, they generally do have higher armor; In some DnD or DnD rule based games, they can equip elven chain, studded leather, or sometimes even normal chain. However, it penalizes their ability to stealth, and the effectiveness of their thief skills, such as pick-lock or pick-pocket, and in 3.0 and higher, caps the amount of AC recieved from dexterity as well. In Daoc, rogues without stealth are called light tanks. They have better base armor, a level above normal rogues (Roughly 80 AL in GW terms), and fight by chaining together certain attacks, usually with the third in the chain, the "dual attack", dealing massive damage.Thats basically what assassins are in GW... except they have lower armor, lower base damage, and nothing to compensate for it.

Besides, its a fantasy game, and fantasy games don't have to make sense. Before they removed global armor absorbtion from warriors, Gladiators + 1 piece of Knights was officially the "Best" armor combination. Apparently wearing a leather/metal hybrid bra, for both male and females, makes for the best defense when fighting off dwarves. Thats right, the Stone Summit dwarves always go for the nipples :shocked:

The sin has mobility to compensate shadow step to them hit them a few times then shadow step away rinse and repeat as needed.

And you are right dwarves know the little known fact that a titty twister can kill a man if hes no wearing a bra.

Look Alive
08-08-2006, 01:47
80 armor is way overpowered and useless for a character that is supposed to stand in the back/midline. I was expecting either 50 or 60 armor on a paragon, as it doesnt really need more, staying in exactly the same range as warders