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View Full Version : Do Avatars warrant their current restrictions?



shamed
29-07-2006, 04:22
After looking at the avatars, I'm wondering what kind of evil combinations the skill designers in ANet came up with to warrant them not being to be 1) Arcane Mimcried and 2) shortened in recharge (the recharge is 5 plus a disable of 120 seconds, thus, realistically, the shortest recharge you can get is 122.5 seconds).

So far, I like the Avatar of Melandru best only because I think I think it is funny to run over lava lakes with no problem but does anyone have any idea what makes them so different from other elites that they have to be so specially restricted? Are they really that much more powerful or is there some other reason?

lifeinthefridge
29-07-2006, 04:25
Ithink there should be a symbol next to a persons name who is in an elite form similar to a weopon that a rit puts on somone

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 04:34
Reason they don't want Arcane Mimicry to work on forms is that Anet doesn't want the forms to be mimicried, simple as that.

Anet wants the forms to be exceptionally for Dervishes.

They are also Elite forms (not spells) which is intended.

Anet wants only a Dervish being able to wield the god-powers, due to their beliefs and religion.

They do not want to see a Mesmer or other profession being able to get so close to their God.

Only a Dervish is able to do this.

shamed
29-07-2006, 04:46
Reason they don't want Arcane Mimicry to work on forms is that Anet doesn't want the forms to be mimicried, simple as that.

Anet wants the forms to be exceptionally for Dervishes.

They are also Elite forms (not spells) which is intended.

Anet wants only a Dervish being able to wield the god-powers, due to their beliefs and religion.

They do not want to see a Mesmer or other profession being able to get so close to their God.

Only a Dervish is able to do this.

The forms are in the primary attribute line and that is enough restriction if ANet doesn't want other classes to use those forms. Assuming they could be AMed, mesmer primary using Arcane Mimicry would be able to use the forms for only 1 second.

What about a D/Me who still could use Arcane Mimcry? Your argument that only Dervishes should use forms is thus moot because Dervish primaries are still restricted and unable to 'get close to their God' via Arcane Mimicry.

Also, your argument is more of a lore argument than an argument of balance. ANet has never and will never set restrictions or design a skill based on lore. Balance is everything and my question is what makes these skills so special that it would be unbalancing to AM and/or reduce their recharges?

MaximumSquid
29-07-2006, 04:53
Why not just use determined shot?

Or Arcane Mimicry Oath Shot or assassin's promise off someone?

You can still recharge them, but it takes a little more gimmying.

shamed
29-07-2006, 05:14
Why not just use determined shot?

Or Arcane Mimicry Oath Shot or assassin's promise off someone?

You can still recharge them, but it takes a little more gimmying.

Because Determined Shot only recharges attack skills =p

As I said, I meant 'realistically'. I'm aware of the possible ways around the restrictions, but in all but a few very special circumstances, it's not possible to do so.

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 05:45
The forms are in the primary attribute line and that is enough restriction if ANet doesn't want other classes to use those forms. Assuming they could be AMed, mesmer primary using Arcane Mimicry would be able to use the forms for only 1 second.

What about a D/Me who still could use Arcane Mimcry? Your argument that only Dervishes should use forms is thus moot because Dervish primaries are still restricted and unable to 'get close to their God' via Arcane Mimicry.


That Dervish who would use Mimicry would not be worthy to be that close to God.

He would have to achieve and be granted the form himself and prove his worth.

You need to truly believe, to be one with God.

Dark Green
29-07-2006, 06:03
D/Me using Arcane Mimicry could get around the 120 recharge because of how Arcane Mimicry works, right?

The Harlequin
29-07-2006, 06:16
They clearly want the forms to be unique and special for the Ds. /applaude

Why don't they want you to be permanently in avatar form? Because it's not part of the game's design to have 2-4 permanent abilities (enchant removal, hex removal, immunity to conditions, armor bonus, etc) from 1 skill.

Abrupt
29-07-2006, 12:18
The reason Arcane Mimicry doesn't work is so that you can't get around the 120s disable. Simple as that, nothing to do with the lore.

Ezra
29-07-2006, 13:35
Precisely.

shamed
29-07-2006, 18:27
The reason Arcane Mimicry doesn't work is so that you can't get around the 120s disable. Simple as that, nothing to do with the lore.

My question wasn't why AM doesn't work, my question is why we can't get around the 120s disable.



Precisely.

To whom were you agreeing and why? One word doesn't really make sense or help me understand your position.



D/Me using Arcane Mimicry could get around the 120 recharge because of how Arcane Mimicry works, right?

Nope. AM was updated specially so that it wouldn't work with elite forms.



That Dervish who would use Mimicry would not be worthy to be that close to God.

He would have to achieve and be granted the form himself and prove his worth.

You need to truly believe, to be one with God.

You're still arguing lore =)



Why don't they want you to be permanently in avatar form? Because it's not part of the game's design to have 2-4 permanent abilities (enchant removal, hex removal, immunity to conditions, armor bonus, etc) from 1 skill.

Finally something that seems to be on topic =) So your stance is that the abilities that the forms provide are above and beyond the power of any other elite in the game?

Icy Spicy
29-07-2006, 18:51
mimicry will allow a group of dervishs to get more than one avatars forms on the bars... they dont think it should happen, its that simple...

katanaboy
29-07-2006, 19:14
For 20 seconds, Arcane Mimicry becomes the elite spell from target other ally.

Form is not a spell.

Shallowrain
29-07-2006, 19:29
actually, when I went to look at the skill, I read this:

"For 20 seconds, Arcane Mimicry becomes the non-Form Elite Skill from target other ally."

I think the major reason that they put this restriction in is because otherwise two Dervish could mimic each others avatar forms, and practically ignore the long recharge of the forms. With High Mysticism, they'd only be out a few seconds.

1. Dervish both enter forms.
2. 48 seconds later, both mimic each other
3. 4 seconds later (52 seconds total) they enter the mimiced forms.
4. 48 seconds later (100 seconds) both dervish only have 20 seconds before the first form is back.

Heck, with 15 mysticism, two forms would cover each others recharge completely, with 60 seconds each. That's my assumption as to why Arcane mimicry was changed.

Mehtis_
29-07-2006, 19:37
Why not just use determined shot?

Or Arcane Mimicry Oath Shot or assassin's promise off someone?

You can still recharge them, but it takes a little more gimmying.

Assassis Promise is elite skill.

Shallowrain
29-07-2006, 19:50
Assassis Promise is elite skill.

I think he meant that you use Arcane mimicry to gank Assassin's Promise from somebody else, to recharge your avatar form.

shadow the hero
29-07-2006, 19:53
I think he meant that you use Arcane mimicry to gank Assassin's Promise from somebody else, to recharge your avatar form. Yeah and now's the Problem, You got few secs to Kill that Foe, before Assassin's Promise runs out and Rechange with 45 secs

Raiala
29-07-2006, 20:40
The problem is that forms have under 10 secs recharge I think, but when they are used(casted, and not interrupted), they are DISAPLED for 120 secs. The recharge can be lowered, but there is no way around the 120 secs diapled.

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 00:17
Back on the topic of should elite forms can only be up half the time at most :P

I guess so.. since there really isn't much you can do to counter them, comparable elites all have some disadvantages, conditionals, or can be countered.

Chaz Rea
30-07-2006, 01:18
The recharge can be lowered, but there is no way around the 120 secs diapled.
Actually, there is a way round: morale boosts.

They recharge all skills, including God Forms - great when holding the flag in GvG or if you cast just before you kill the Ghostly Hero/boss in PvP/PvE.

Furinto
30-07-2006, 01:30
Shamed, the reason ANet doesn't want anybody getting around the 120 sec wait to use the skill again is because the elite forms are meant to be really uber skills. I don't care what anyone says, being able to permanently be in an Avatar Form is just way overbalanced. You are being restricted to only using the transformation every couple minutes because of how unique and powerful they are.

D/Me's with AM (suppoing AM worked) still would not (and yes, this goes back to lore, sue me) be able to have multiple transformation skills on their skillbar because I suppose a Dervish should only be devout to one diety, or perhaps that it requires so much faith/energy/magic/voodoo to concentrate on one transformation, it would be impossible to also have a second transformation handy.

killerstick
30-07-2006, 02:05
Yeah and now's the Problem, You got few secs to Kill that Foe, before Assassin's Promise runs out and Rechange with 45 secs

AP recharges itself also.

GormWolfblade
30-07-2006, 02:15
It would be horribly overpowered if avatars were available the entire match. Imagine a Dervish with base 110 armor and +33% run speed the entire match!
Imagine a Dervish with 740 health and complete immunity to conditions for the entire match! and even still, they would have 7 slots left over.

Furinto
30-07-2006, 02:21
AP recharges itself also.
Only if you kill the foe while they're still hexed. If you don't kill them within the five seconds, you have to wait until AP recharges to use it again.

Alexia of Durham
30-07-2006, 03:16
Only if you kill the foe while they're still hexed. If you don't kill them within the five seconds, you have to wait until AP recharges to use it again.

That's do-able though if you call target and everyone makes sure of that target ,you'd be in business.

Patccmoi
30-07-2006, 03:55
Hrm, Forms are EXTREMELY powerful. They give things that other elites aren't close to give honestly, for a very long duration, with NO DRAWBACK (that's a huge part). They can't be stripped, you can't do anything against them. Honestly, atm i consider Forms too powerful.

In 8v8 (and PvE with bosses), Morale Boost recharge Forms too. This matters a LOT in HA, because look at the mass D/Mo teams, when they get Morale Boost they can all use their Form again before it ends (or can reuse it if they die and rez)

Balthazar's Form for example giving you 33% run speed and 40AL... that's huge, and there is no way to get rid of it. It's not a stance, it's not an enchant, etc. Imo it's the strongest form without a specific build or aim around it, because the bonus is just incredible, and with the base Mysticism bonus of health/energy gain constantly, you're actually a far better tank than a warrior can dream to be while dealing more damage.

Grenth's Form is better than Dark Apostacy and you don't lose energy when you remove enchants, so you can use it for its full duration.

Dwayna's Form is a constant self-heal and hex-removal.

Melandru's Form give you something UNIQUE in the game (immunity to condition), which is also incredibly powerful (when we faced traps in TA, we just sent a Melandru Form in them to detonate them all with hardly any damage taken).

Lyssa's Form gives you a HUGE damage buff against people using skills, which is incredibly powerful against Ritualists, and makes Healing Signet/Troll Onguent suicidal more than anything else. Elementalists and Necros with long cast would likely be crying too.

Imo, Forms would need a lower duration actually, and lower disabling. In RA/TA, games are often decided before your first Form runs out. In HA, you often gain Morale Boost before it runs out. In GvG, i can imagine teams holding flag having Dervish in nearly permanent Form. And on the downside, if you die you just lose your Form for too long. I'd rather see a lower duration on Forms, but lower cooldown (say 35-40 sec duration with 90 sec disabling)

But as for 'are they warrant the no-mimickry'... more than so atm.

ReniriAirion
30-07-2006, 12:02
Anyone got screenies of all of the avatars? I want to do some drawing....