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Slygar
29-07-2006, 04:45
Not +4. Nuff said.

edit:
Sorry, it just seems pretty obvious to me. It's just too much of a good thing. Most of its spells are high damage, high AoE, low cast time, low energy cost. With +4 regen, it seems a little much, after getting 5 practically effortless glad points using the one I made today. Not to mention the high damage AoE normal attacks. All the new classes (well, havent tried Paragon yet, so cant say on that one) seem to have +4 energy regen, which is kinda silly in itself. That isnt even bringing up the regains from Mysticism.

I agree that Paragon seems pretty bleh so far, although I havent tried it myself yet.

IMO Zealous and Vampiric Scythe upgrades should just not exist, possibly replaced with Dervish-specific new upgrade types.

realoddsman
29-07-2006, 04:49
Dervish is fun.

Paragon is kinda boring.

Archenine Paranoia
29-07-2006, 04:54
How about justifying your reasoning rather than saying "Nuff said". This is absolutely pointless.

killerstick
29-07-2006, 04:58
Actually it would be helpful if you explained why you feel that way? I don't really see how "nuff said" is any reason for it to be changed.

Captain Roberts
29-07-2006, 04:59
im pretty sure you will fall in love with zelous when EVERY atack you do is aoe...dont get mad because of only 3 regen

Slygar
29-07-2006, 05:00
Sorry, it just seems pretty obvious to me. It's just too much of a good thing. Most of its spells are high damage, high AoE, low cast time, low energy cost. With +4 regen, it seems a little much, after getting 5 practically effortless glad points using the one I made today. Not to mention the high damage AoE normal attacks. All the new classes (well, havent tried Paragon yet, so cant say on that one) seem to have +4 energy regen, which is kinda silly in itself. That isnt even bringing up the regains from Mysticism.

I agree that Paragon seems pretty bleh so far, although I havent tried it myself yet.

IMO Zealous and Vampiric Scythe upgrades should just not exist, possibly replaced with Dervish-specific new upgrade types.

Copying this to the first post.

takplayer
29-07-2006, 05:03
Paragon has +2 energy regen btw. And to do any significant damage, a Dervish must spam his spells, therefore the energy regen seems fine. Getting glad points this weekend is like shooting fish in the barrel, and shouldn't be used to judge the class.

Slygar
29-07-2006, 05:05
So you are saying that the class seems well balanced to you in its current state? I'm not asking if the skills will get nerfed or whatever, since no one can say that yet. I'm saying that right now, it would be a hell of a lot more sensical for it to have +4.

Cruel Angel
29-07-2006, 05:12
So you are saying that the class seems well balanced to you in its current state? I'm not asking if the skills will get nerfed or whatever, since no one can say that yet. I'm saying that right now, it would be a hell of a lot more sensical for it to have +4.

I think for now its just fine at +4. Granted I haven't tried a whole lot of different combinations, but using that D/W build I'm sitting on just enough energy to get off the combo they give you twice (if you precast before entering battle the first time) and then after that I kind of have to watch how I cast and use things. Seeing as how its a melee-range class with low armor (like the assassin) +4 energy regen is a good counter to the squishiness. If they cut back on the energy regen that powers alot of their defenses/attacks/etc then they'd have to toss them some extra armor or something.

Captain Roberts
29-07-2006, 05:19
oops i misunderstood you, i think they should get only 3 too witha zelous they will have huge amounts of energy

Slygar
29-07-2006, 05:19
i dont see how you can call it squishy.. mine has 666 hp (coincidence? or just the armor :P)

Anyways that combo is a hell of a lot of damage. I'm using the same build. Its comparable to an assassin, only you get full energy at the end of it and its AoE. Sorry, but I dont think its balanced to be able to rip it off that fast. And everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that a Dervish with a Zealous scythe has pretty much infinite regen, especially as far as PvE goes.

A side note: I've found my A/W with critical defenses and Wild Blow *quite* effective at wasting dervishes, if anyones looking ofr something to combat the horde with..

Seef II
29-07-2006, 05:33
25 and 4 pips is the same the assassin runs on. Neither utilize adrenaline to fuel their skills. As a game concept, adrenaline has to be one of the best energy management techniques in the game, hence limiting warriors and paragons to 2 pips is fine.

Slygar
29-07-2006, 05:37
that wasnt the point i was trying to make :O

Azgalon
29-07-2006, 05:50
Paragons have good energy management.

ccrazool
29-07-2006, 06:06
So you are saying that the class seems well balanced to you in its current state?

1. Using the phrase "so you are saying..." is often a good way to start a fight. Everyone should make an effort to not put words into other's mouths.

2. Anyone who thinks that the paragon and dervish are balanced in their current state is fooling him/herself. Wait until October 28th and judge them then.

Chthon
29-07-2006, 08:23
1. Using the phrase "so you are saying..." is often a good way to start a fight. Everyone should make an effort to not put words into other's mouths.

2. Anyone who thinks that the paragon and dervish are balanced in their current state is fooling him/herself. Wait until October 28th and judge them then.

So you are saying they're overpowered? :azn:

I have to agree. The no-runes, limited-skills dervishes I'm seeing in RA are outdamaging everything in sight. There's no way that can be balanced. Plus that one dust evasion skill is just waaay too good.

While most paragons I've encountered have sucked pretty badly, I did face (and lose to) one who was somehow healing his whole team better than many monks do.

Phoebus
29-07-2006, 15:16
that wasnt the point i was trying to make :O
You don't have a point, you have a position.

1. Dervish armor is currently balanced. If they lose 1 energy regen, they'll have to gain something else in exchange, +20 AL vs. Physical for example.
2. You don't 'nerf' Dervish's armor because their Skills, Primary and Scythes are overpowered, you fix the Skills, the Primary and the Scythes.

Slygar
29-07-2006, 15:35
1. The massive bonus HP doesnt count as "something"?
2. There is no nerfing as yet really. THis is a preview. There is nothing written in stone yet.
3. If you are saying they are balanced, then there is something wrong with you.
4. Dervish has a very good E-management attrib, and access to more, like a Ranger.
5. Rangers have +3 energy regen, and are the only class that does.
6. Zealous scythes will make dervish energy pretty much undepletable in PvE or 8v8.
7. Rangers are lonely, being the only one with +3.
8. Dervish spells are for the most part low energy, high damage, low cast time.
9. Dervishes are powerful enough **ATM**, and with a limited skill list, that they would not need compensated for the loss.

There are some of my reasons why I started this thread. Tell me, Phoebus, which of those options you stated sounds like the quicker fix to you? :P

Phoebus
29-07-2006, 15:52
1. The massive bonus HP doesnt count as "something"?
It's your first argument in this thread.

2. There is no nerfing as yet really. THis is a preview. There is nothing written in stone yet.
3. If you are saying they are balanced, then there is something wrong with you.
If you saying that it's their armor that is unbalanced, then there is something wrong with you.

4. Dervish has a very good E-management attrib, and access to more, like a Ranger.
If their primary is very good, why are you calling for an armor nerf?

5. Rangers have +3 energy regen, and are the only class that does.
Ranger armor is 70AL + 30AL vs. elemental, +5 energy and +1 regen. Dervish armor is 70AL, +5 energy and +2 regen. So it's a trade of +1 regen for +30 AL vs. elemental.

6. Zealous scythes will make dervish energy pretty much undepletable in PvE or 8v8.
How does that have anything to do with Dervish armor?

7. Rangers are lonely, being the only one with +3.
You are repeating yourself. Point 5.

8. Dervish spells are for the most part low energy, high damage, low cast time.
How does that have anything to do with Dervish armor?

9. Dervishes are powerful enough **ATM**, and with a limited skill list, that they would not need compensated for the loss.
They are powerful due to their Skills, Scythes & Primary Attribute.


There are some of my reasons why I started this thread. Tell me, Phoebus, which of those options you stated sounds like the quicker fix to you? :P
You started this thread because you needed to tell the world your opinion.
Quick fixes are the easiest way to never solve a problem.
And you didn't list options, you just gave one option and plenty of opinions.

Sable Phoenix
29-07-2006, 16:00
Remember when the Factions PVP event happened? Remember how everyone, but everyone was saying that Ritualists were horribly overpowered and were going to be nerfed to Tuesday?

Yeah.

People just don't know how to fight Dervishes yet. Enchantment stripping, for example, utterly destroys them; I'm sure that Nightfall PVP is going to see an awful lot of enchantment stripping builds because of that. All the calling for nerfs to the new classes is premature, shortsighted, and ill advised. Just because you got owned doesn't make the class overpowered. Wait till the game is released.

AbdulHakim
29-07-2006, 16:22
Remember when the Factions PVP event happened? Remember how everyone, but everyone was saying that Ritualists were horribly overpowered and were going to be nerfed to Tuesday?

Yeah.

People just don't know how to fight Dervishes yet. Enchantment stripping, for example, utterly destroys them; I'm sure that Nightfall PVP is going to see an awful lot of enchantment stripping builds because of that. All the calling for nerfs to the new classes is premature, shortsighted, and ill advised. Just because you got owned doesn't make the class overpowered. Wait till the game is released.

Enchantment stripping actually helps some Dervish builds - the Whirling Dervish being a good example.

Erasculio
29-07-2006, 16:36
I think that, armor wise, the Dervish is fine.

And I'm happy to see a class that melees a lot better than a Warrior - if it were any different, people would just whine and whine and whine (http://forums.gwonline.net/forumdisplay.php?f=149) about the Dervish, no matter what the profession could actually do.

Some skills need to be changed, Mysticism toned down a bit. I think a few skills deserve a buff, too (Avatar of Grenth, for example - there are a lot better skills that doesn't take our Elite slot and remove enchantments. I wish it added a small health stealing to each attack, like a vampiric mod).

Overall, I think it's just a matter of using anti Ranger and anti Warrior strategies - Ward Against Melee, Crippling Shot and blindness on those out of Melandru Form, Ineptitude and a lot of other Mesmer spells, etc...

Erasculio

Icy Spicy
29-07-2006, 16:47
a good Dervish is like a good Warrior and a good Ele in one... they have the ability to tank like a warrior, but also at the same time spamming AoE with good damage and tons of conditions... mysticism is just too good IMO

but hey its just beta... Anet are watching, they know by now dervish need some serious work

Slygar
29-07-2006, 17:13
wow.

Ppl sure love to assume the worst.

For one thing, no dervish has owned me yet.. i'm talking from experience with the ones I've been playing.

What kind of options do you want me to list, Phoebus? My opinion is that dervish should have +3 regen. Thats it. I'm not writing a 25 page thesis about it. Of course I want to tell my opinion, or I wouldnt be a member here. Its not a crime. And maybe I *like* having powerful skills at my disposal, just with less of a spammability factor. Making many of the classes abilites useless is not always the best solution, as can be seen with the Rit (which is of course a great class, just with many skills that were nerfed to the point of being a waste of bytes. Tell me the last time you saw anyone use Tranquil was Tanasen, for example.)

This is a change I dont think could be made after the game release. But meh. I'm sure Anet will fix it one way or the other.

MikesSmikes
29-07-2006, 17:20
Enchantment stripping actually helps some Dervish builds - the Whirling Dervish being a good example.

My dom mesmer is certainly having fun ...... shatter, drain etc. all that s on him + a good dent of damage -> blackout -> backfire ....... whops where did that dervish go!? ah he tried to recast his enchants heeeee heeeee.

works on 95% of the dervs that are currently in RA :rolleyes:

The other 5% are propably former PvP Monks that know to watch their hexes :shocked:

i can t really say i m having a problem with dervishes....... except if it s a pulk of 3 of em again that descent straight on me and me alone because i m in a group full of warriors and me being the only squishy lol..... gotta love that :/

but that s not unbalancing :P

Fyre Brand
29-07-2006, 17:37
wow.

Ppl sure love to assume the worst.

For one thing, no dervish has owned me yet.. i'm talking from experience with the ones I've been playing.

What kind of options do you want me to list, Phoebus? My opinion is that dervish should have +3 regen. Thats it. I'm not writing a 25 page thesis about it. Of course I want to tell my opinion, or I wouldnt be a member here. Its not a crime. And maybe I *like* having powerful skills at my disposal, just with less of a spammability factor. Making many of the classes abilites useless is not always the best solution, as can be seen with the Rit (which is of course a great class, just with many skills that were nerfed to the point of being a waste of bytes. Tell me the last time you saw anyone use Tranquil was Tanasen, for example.)

This is a change I dont think could be made after the game release. But meh. I'm sure Anet will fix it one way or the other.The +4 on the Dervish is perfectly balanced with their energy pool which is 25 right? Only warriors and maybe assassins have such a low energy pool.

It's good that the Dervish is 25/+4 because if they were +3 regen then they would need a higher energy pool since they don't have adrenal skills to balance that. The low energy pool keeps the dervish from being able to spam mass skills, but the energy regen allows them a decent recast rate.

This is going to be good for party builds. I think there is going to be more enchant supporting on the backlines to replenish the Dervish energy pool. So you might see more enchant heavy monks and necros in support roles. You might also see more mesmers in offensive and defensive rolls to provide enchant or hex stripping, respectively.

Balancing skills and attributes is a much better avenue towards balance. Your points are extreme. Balancing skills won't make them useless it will make them.... well.... balanced? That is what you are mostly concerned with aren't you, that the class ends up balanced.

elona scissorhands
29-07-2006, 17:50
use a energy denial build and walla... i mean come on the class is based on enchantment spells.... it NEEDS that extra energy... and if you have half a brain stay as far away from the dervish as possibble and your fine... they dont really have any method of healing without attacking that i've seen to be directly linked to their class... i killed a pair standing on a bridge in koga from underneath. other than the fact its kinda silly they didnt go running off out of my range they still died reallly reallly fast

Shallowrain
29-07-2006, 18:47
I don't think that a +3 energy regen is currently a good idea. I think that the Dervish needs some sort of tweaking, but in my experience the Dervish is not swimming in unlimited pools of energy. Random Arenas are not the best place to judge a class, and the preview weekends never give you a good picture because people don't know what to expect from the opponents, and that Anet will make some amount of changes to them.

The biggest reason that I would not suggest a +3 regen is the following points:

1. Dervish do not utilize addrenaline. Addrenaline is how Warriors and Paragon deal with their low energy regen, and the Warrior's low energy pool.

2. Mysticism does not reduce the inital cost of Dervish skills. Rangers are capable of dealing with high energy skills more effectively because they require a significantly lower initial energy investment.

I would say the Dervish is close to balanced. There is your standard amount of confusion and wacky hijinks that happens with any of the new classes, but after the first few hours of the pvp weekend, I would say that the Dervish is roughly on the same playing field as the other classes (once again, random arena does not give you an accurate sampling, but it's all I've got in this case.). When I started on Friday, I was laying people out. anybody who got into the range of my Whirling Dervish ended up chopped up. Late Friday and today, people are reacting better. Those warriors don't stick around when they see me loading up on enchants. The monks now that they can't stand next to each other if they want to draw my fire. The Rangers stick to bows, and turn me into a pincoushin instead of throwing dirt in my face. A Mesmer left me worthless and in a shuddering heap on the floor through energy denial alone. Necromancers figured out that Desecrate enchantments totally destroys a dervish. I have not really seen any sort of noticeable domination with the Dervish class.

I'd also like to add a final point about the vampiric and zealous upgrades. The only way that you're going to be reaping a large amount of energy and health from these upgrades is if your opponents are silly enough to gather around you. Otherwise you have roughly the equivilant of a zealous of vampiric hammer. Useful, but not overpowered. The introduction of class-specific upgrades (and only to a non-core class, even) would be a bad precedant.

Bobross
29-07-2006, 19:21
I've been playing as Dervish the last 2 days, and I agree...overpowered.

Enchantment stripping doesn't work: I've got my own skills with the express purpose of stripping my enchantments...you can feel free to strip them for me.

Energy Denial can slow me down, but it won't shut me down the way it would on a monk. Any enchantments on me are just stored energy thanks to mysticism...and with the fast casting speed, I can get them back up in no time, before your e-burn goes off. Diversion won't work on me either...if I'm awake.

Dervishes also boast: very good hex removal, and some decent ways to deal with conditions (not to mention using contemplation of purity)

Fast spells that are hard to interrupt.

Great self heals.

People are talking about great damage builds here, but I've also made a great support dervish/monk as well, and found it easier to play and more versatile and survivable than many monk builds.

Too many positives, no obvious negatives...a class needs a few obvious counters to be balanced, be it melee, interrupts, backfire, e-denial, enchant stripping, hex protection, what have you...Dervishes can deal with most of the common counters easily and within the same build, and still be able to deal decent damage/heal/protect a party.

Slygar
29-07-2006, 19:26
Shallowrain, the point i was making about the zealous scythe is that in PvE, the enemies ALWAYS gather around you..

Bodross has what I am trying to say down pat.

Phoebus
29-07-2006, 19:37
And how would a reduction to Dervish's energy regen change how their scythes work?
If the scythes are overpowered, fix the scythes.

Shallowrain
29-07-2006, 20:54
Shallowrain, the point i was making about the zealous scythe is that in PvE, the enemies ALWAYS gather around you..

Bodross has what I am trying to say down pat.

I'm also looking at it from a pvp perspective, as both sides need to be considered. True, Enemies always gather around you in PvE, but nobody ever complains about the zealous axe. I think that the Dervish needs tweaking, but I don't think that this is the location of the problem.

GormWolfblade
29-07-2006, 21:00
I don't think the +3 regen is the answer. Reason rangers get that isn't because of the +30 vs elemental, it's because of expertise. This can nearly double their energy pool, provided they aren't using spells.

Also, simply enchant removal is no good vs dervs, alot of their enchants, while active do NOTHING, removing them unleashes their effect + give energy + give health. Of course, shatter and especially Drain Enchantment are great here.

Slygar
30-07-2006, 05:37
bump.. see http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=413483

"then end of guild wars as we know it"..

Repeat: Dervish spells are low energy/recharge, high damage. I like them that way. I'd rather have a little less energy regen to cut down spammability factor than a bunch of useless spells, especially considering mysticism.

ShadowCeiling
30-07-2006, 06:14
It's fine at 4 actually... since they don't have any +7 armor yet, so the max amount of energy they get is 30.... 30 energy at any less than 4 regen is useless if you running enchant and the better scythe attacks. Other things need to be looked at right now, but I think thier energy regen is perfect.

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 06:59
I think there's more to consider when you want to change the regen pips of a class. The dervishes are spellcasters. Their primary attribute only helps enchants. There are however scythe skills and direct spells in the class too.

I'm pretty sure Anet had made dervishes to be good at enchanting, but when they choose to not enchant, they can also serve as spell casters. If you change their energy regen it takes away the class's innate versatility.

It is the same as asking Assasin's regen to be decreased because critical strikes is also energy management (and a good one at that). A very cheap way to fix the class's problems when there are clearly better alternatives out there.

Slygar
30-07-2006, 07:16
Maybe so. But this isnt changing an established classes pips, its an unreleased as yet testing class.

Meh, seems I'm the only one that thinks this :( given how good the dervish is at melee, especially the AoE swings, it just seems kinda silly to me, on top everything else, for them to have +4...

And I dont like the idea of all new melee classes getting +4 regen just because they dont use adrenaline. Yeah, I know they are half caster too.

Akirai Annuvil
30-07-2006, 15:27
I don't consider them physical attackers becausre their innate physical attacks are enormously weak. They're slow and have very low minimum damage and although the maximum damage can be very high, that's when they crit. Ever heard of Dulled Weapon (ritualist hexes stop foes from critting, works wonders against assas too)? So there melee attacks are completely dependant from crits pretty much which can be stopped without too much of a fuss...

Their enchantments are more of a problem bu limiting their regen wouldn't help you dare; the energy to cast enchants is almost solely acquired through Mysticism. That 1 pip won't make too much of a difference for them.

Yet when you're trying to be a caster, you'll need that 1 pip. I've tried with Mystic Twister and Healing and energy management was almost always my main issue because you're doing more than just stripping and re-applying enchants.

So I don't think it would be ground-breaking against the melee and enchantment focused builds while destroying the caster builds. So no I'm against making it 3 pips also =3.

tommynj
25-10-2006, 06:50
Dervish need +4 energy regen due to the fact just about all their skills and spells cost 5-10e and a few 15e, its fine the way it is :)

Goldfish God
25-10-2006, 14:14
thread res is pointless

critical vengeance
25-10-2006, 21:43
it's bascially a melee caster, no reason not to have 4 regen really.