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Xunlai Agent
29-07-2006, 15:23
So
Arcane Mimicry: added a restriction so that it cannot be used on Elite Dervish Form skills.

You can't steal the form itself with Arcane Mimicry, however perma form can still be achieved by taking either:

a)
Oath Shot: If Oath Shot hits, all of your skills except Oath Shot are recharged. If it misses, all of your skills are disabled for 10 seconds. (50% miss chance with Expertise 7 or less.)

or

b)
Assassin's Promise: For 5...13 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 5...17 Energy, and all your skills are recharged.

Oath Shot is of course the poorer option because you will miss 50% of the time. However it may still be an option in PvE Areas with Shrines of Melandru you could artificially raise your expertise via payment above the required eight without being a primary Ranger, this would also have the neat attack of being able to cut the energy costs of skills you may be using while in the form you have chose.


Assassin's Promise is of course the better choice but suited better for PvE than PvP (with the exception of spike groups). I have tested this and having a permanent form is definately nothing to be frowned upon...

~Xunlai Agent~

Tarantio
29-07-2006, 15:28
Its a nice idea, and the forms are good enough to warrant trying to copy, but how are you managing to get two elites in your skillbar?

edit: ooh, also, a shrine of Melandru will only raise the ranger skills you have by one; if you don't have Expertise, you can't raise it, and certainly not eight times. Shame though.

Paul Pluto
29-07-2006, 15:29
I'm sure the point people keep making is that they get DISABLED, not just a lenghty recharge so I'm not sure either of them would work at all.

And two elites is a no no unless your out capping one :smiley:

Xunlai Agent
29-07-2006, 15:31
Uh I did post the skill Arcane Mimicry at the top? Did you see that? Do you know what it does or why I put it there?

Paul Pluto
29-07-2006, 15:40
Description :For 20 seconds, Arcane Mimicry becomes the Elite spell from target other ally.

Energy Cost : 15
Casting Time : 2 seconds
Cool Down Time : 60 seconds
Skill Type : Spell
Effect(s): Copy Elite Spell

Ensue Flaming :wink:

You could suggest a dual farming idea of god form, hmmm!

Xunlai Agent
29-07-2006, 15:41
Excellent do you now understand where I get my second elite from?

Ensui
29-07-2006, 15:42
Uh I did post the skill Arcane Mimicry at the top? Did you see that? Do you know what it does or why I put it there?
Daaaah whuz Akane Mumickry? :P

I'm wondering if QZ would work, like how it helps negate the affects of Black Out...

Xunlai Agent
29-07-2006, 15:50
It should work too as far as I can see because the disabling is very much like the "blackout" effect. I have yet to confirm this though...

jeremyg
29-07-2006, 15:50
Daaaah whuz Akane Mumickry? :P

I'm wondering if QZ would work, like how it helps negate the affects of Black Out...
I was wondering this myself, tried it with QZ and Serpent's Quickness, at it did not effect the recharge time.:angry:

Tarantio
29-07-2006, 15:55
Excellent do you now understand where I get my second elite from?

You might have been more clear about your intentions before taking this tone, we clearly didn't understand you at first. You mean to keep arcane mimicry, but ues it on a party member with either assassin's promise or oath shot (hence having two elites, albeit only temporarily). It could work that way, I guess, but it restricts you to being a D/Me or Me/D, and means that someone else on your team *has* to have one of the other skills. Oath Shot is common enough for that to help, but like you say it will fail 50% of the time, and as Paul Pluto pointed out, the skill isn't recharging, its disabled (it also means you have to carry a bow alongside your scythes). Assassin's Promise is rarely used, and with no points in any assassin skills, you have to be able to time an enemy's death to within 5 seconds, which is harder than you might think. Again, though, there's not much point, since the form is disabled, not recharging. The effort, IMHO, isn't worth it to boost *one* party member.

*NB I'm not sure that disabled and recharging are different things, perhaps further testing (which I have not done) should be done, to see if this is a viable option

It would seem that the forms are not meant to be copied, and I think this is the intention of the ANet skill designers. They are very powerful skills indeed, in that they cannot be cancelled once begun, and that if they are interrupted during casting (and not delayed by something such as disrupting chop) then there is only a five second recharge until they are available again. Being able to be in this uncounterable state permanently may be a very imbalancing feature in an already powerful class. If you can get it to work, though, cudos to you and good luck using it successfully, its certainly an interesting idea.

Bobross
29-07-2006, 16:02
how about just using serpent's quickness and qz?

Rook0792
29-07-2006, 16:05
Could you Echo the form? It'd let you cast it again after 20 seconds.

Xunlai Agent
29-07-2006, 16:08
No I did go out and test it with Assassin's Promise and I guarantee you it does work. However the hex lasts only very shortly so it is quite hard to use due to the limited time frame so it isn't perma form forever...

Echo would work and so would QZ however SQ would not work as it isnt recharging but blacked out

Rook0792
29-07-2006, 16:13
how about just using serpent's quickness and qz?

Mainly, because it doesn't work.

Tried both and tested both, neither of them affect it.

Apok Omni
29-07-2006, 19:57
Ahem. Please carefully read Echo and QZ.

Echo: For 20 seconds, Echo is replaced with the next skill you use. Echo acts as this skill for 20 seconds.

Most of the Forms last 1 minute, so you would have to use it's duplicate after 17 seconds.


Quickening Zepher: Create a level 1...8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, all skills recharge twice as fast as normal and cost 30% more Energy to cast. This Spirit dies after 15...39 seconds.

Now, let's take a look at the last part of each Form.

Avatar of xxx: This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

There is no way you can prevent this. It says that it is disabled, not lengthened recharge. Therefore, these skills will have no effect. Sorry.

Xunlai Agent
29-07-2006, 20:29
Ahem. Please carefully read Echo and QZ.

Echo: For 20 seconds, Echo is replaced with the next skill you use. Echo acts as this skill for 20 seconds.

Most of the Forms last 1 minute, so you would have to use it's duplicate after 17 seconds.


Quickening Zepher: Create a level 1...8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, all skills recharge twice as fast as normal and cost 30% more Energy to cast. This Spirit dies after 15...39 seconds.

Now, let's take a look at the last part of each Form.

Avatar of xxx: This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

There is no way you can prevent this. It says that it is disabled, not lengthened recharge. Therefore, these skills will have no effect. Sorry.
AP and Oath Shot will

arredondo
29-07-2006, 21:46
What they are saying as that AP and Oath Shot won't bring back a god form because AP and Oath Shot only recharge skills.... the god forms aren't stuck in recharge mode. They are disabled.

Think of the Rez Sig. Once you use it, it becomes permanately disabled and OS or AP won't bring it back from the dead (no pun intended). Now god forms are disabled the exact same way, except they come back after 120s.

takplayer
29-07-2006, 22:31
What they are saying as that AP and Oath Shot won't bring back a god form because AP and Oath Shot only recharge skills.... the god forms aren't stuck in recharge mode. They are disabled.

Think of the Rez Sig. Once you use it, it becomes permanately disabled and OS or AP won't bring it back from the dead (no pun intended). Now god forms are disabled the exact same way, except they come back after 120s.

qft.

Why don't people realize this? Anet designed the God Elites very specifically to get around the Perma God Form issue. Why do you think the skills don't just have a 120 second recharge? Just for fun? I think not.

rangerjon
29-07-2006, 22:42
OK this will work, but how often will you be able to pull it off?

GLF 1 more ranger..must have oath shot so I can feed off of it and have perma form.

No, I don't see this happening because most rangers would carry barrage instead.

Akirai Annuvil
29-07-2006, 23:15
*Sigh* this is clearly intended for organized groups containg for example one assassin and 3 Derv/Mesmers, allowing the three dervs to copy assassins promise, and then stayin god form while the assassn goes off to do something else.

Please people think, and look at skill descriptions...

This is of course assuming that APromise does work else it's useless, but since OP says it does, it is very intriguing. ANet please nerf.

takplayer
29-07-2006, 23:18
*Sigh* this is clearly intended for organized groups containg for example one assassin and 3 Derv/Mesmers, allowing the three dervs to copy assassins promise, and then stayin god form while the assassn goes off to do something else.

Please people think, and look at skill descriptions...

This is of course assuming that APromise does work else it's useless, but since OP says it does, it is very intriguing. ANet please nerf.

It doesn't work.

Apok Omni
30-07-2006, 05:49
*Sigh* this is clearly intended for organized groups containg for example one assassin and 3 Derv/Mesmers, allowing the three dervs to copy assassins promise, and then stayin god form while the assassn goes off to do something else.

Please people think, and look at skill descriptions...

This is of course assuming that APromise does work else it's useless, but since OP says it does, it is very intriguing. ANet please nerf.

Assassins Promise: For 5...13 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 5...17 Energy, and all your skills are recharged

Not un-disabled.

pixl
30-07-2006, 06:35
Assassins Promise: For 5...13 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 5...17 Energy, and all your skills are recharged

Not un-disabled.
isn't the res signet disabled after you use it?

Xunlai Agent
30-07-2006, 14:20
What they are saying as that AP and Oath Shot won't bring back a god form because AP and Oath Shot only recharge skills.... the god forms aren't stuck in recharge mode. They are disabled.

Think of the Rez Sig. Once you use it, it becomes permanately disabled and OS or AP won't bring it back from the dead (no pun intended). Now god forms are disabled the exact same way, except they come back after 120s.
Test it before you post incorrect information in this thread. Thank you very much...

rangerjon
30-07-2006, 17:50
Guys there is no way to counter the 120 disable, both AP and Oath only recharge skills, it's exactly like the res sig, you can't oath shot to get back your sig.

arredondo
30-07-2006, 20:04
Test it before you post incorrect information in this thread. Thank you very much...

I'm always a believer in testing things, so I went to Nameless Isle to see if were possible to be sure.

Oath Shot: It is impossible to recharge an Avatar with OS, but for different reasons than described above. I went in with A.Mimicry and Avatar of Melandru before copying OS from a friend. After using the Dervish elite, I triggered OS and it always misses if your Expertise <L7. Always.

The only way around that is to go Ra/Me with OS and A.Mimicry to copy Melandru from a teammate. As we all know now, you can't copy Avatars with A.Mimicry so Oath Shot will never work with it.

Assassin's Promise: Again I was in Nameless Isle with a friend as a DeMe with AoMelandru and A.Mimicry. I copied Assassin's Promise with A.Mimicry and activated AoMelandru. After beating down a test dummy to a sliver of health, I cast AP on it and then killed it.... all skills including AoMelandru recharged. You were (half) right, so my humblest apologies. :flowers:

You can't make this work in PvP with any real att. points for AP because it ends too fast. In PvE though, every DeMe on the team can have infinite time in Avatar mode with careful timing using this. Will it be nerfed? Or should it stay as is?

And what is the point of "disabled" anyway? Perhaps so skills can't speed up the recharge like SQ and QZ? Instant recharge is fine with A.Net I guess.

Lady Althea
30-07-2006, 20:41
yeah, that seems too overpowered, we'll prolly see a nerf come our way about the instant recharge. wish it could stay the same though *cries*

then again, we dont' know what kinds of foes we'll be facing in Nightfall, this might have been left as a strategy to help take out w/e we fight. we'll just have to wait and see

Xunlai Agent
30-07-2006, 20:49
I'm always a believer in testing things, so I went to Nameless Isle to see if were possible to be sure.

Oath Shot: It is impossible to recharge an Avatar with OS, but for different reasons than described above. I went in with A.Mimicry and Avatar of Melandru before copying OS from a friend. After using the Dervish elite, I triggered OS and it always misses if your Expertise <L7. Always.

The only way around that is to go Ra/Me with OS and A.Mimicry to copy Melandru from a teammate. As we all know now, you can't copy Avatars with A.Mimicry so Oath Shot will never work with it.

Assassin's Promise: Again I was in Nameless Isle with a friend as a DeMe with AoMelandru and A.Mimicry. I copied Assassin's Promise with A.Mimicry and activated AoMelandru. After beating down a test dummy to a sliver of health, I cast AP on it and then killed it.... all skills including AoMelandru recharged. You were (half) right, so my humblest apologies. :flowers:

You can't make this work in PvP with any real att. points for AP because it ends too fast. In PvE though, every DeMe on the team can have infinite time in Avatar mode with careful timing using this. Will it be nerfed? Or should it stay as is?

And what is the point of "disabled" anyway? Perhaps so skills can't speed up the recharge like SQ and QZ? Instant recharge is fine with A.Net I guess.

no it's a 50% miss not full miss so I am fully right not just half but thanks anyways :flowers:

rangerjon
30-07-2006, 22:38
An easy way to nerf this (and even though I'm going to run a dervish with an avatar) is to make AP recharge only assassin skills. I'm just saying this to balance things out although I will have my own dervish.

mrankh
30-07-2006, 22:46
a mimicry works on non-spells? wow news to me oath shot is not a spell

neoflame
30-07-2006, 22:54
a mimicry works on non-spells? wow news to me
Reread the skill description.

blazeinferno
30-07-2006, 23:17
I think the main problem is that they didn't want you to have 2 different forms on you at the same time, that would be overpowered.

Skye Marin
30-07-2006, 23:26
Don't worry, they thought of this. Any way that you can think might let you form longer, or a second time, they're already thought of. The Skill type "Form" is new, and can easily change how they interact with other skills if any way is found.

arredondo
31-07-2006, 01:44
no it's a 50% miss not full miss so I am fully right not just half but thanks anyways :flowers:

The description says 50% but we tried and tried... misses evey single time.

Xunlai Agent
31-07-2006, 03:25
The description says 50% but we tried and tried... misses evey single time.
I have heard no official test or reports that this is the case, so for now I will assume the skill description is still correct. It may be bugged though