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View Full Version : cop spike - the end of gw as we know it?



don gudo
29-07-2006, 23:47
Since the beginning of the preview, questions have been raised like "are dervishes overpowered?" or "What bugs will be found using the new classes to abuse pvp?" but I think no one imagined the sheer stupidity of the contemplation of purity (CoP) spike that is taking heroes' ascent by storm. In my opinion and the opinion of many others, something must be immediately done to nerf this build, just like sand shards. Heroes' ascent just isn't fun when an unblockable irresistable area effect damage spike that cannot be averted with hexes or conditions is used constantly. People said iway was taking the fun out of the game - but I think iway would be a huge step in the right direction from this.

Agree, disagree?

MrRock
29-07-2006, 23:51
No I totally agree... I just personally experienced the sheer stupidity of this build.

IMO - Time for a new update.

MaximumSquid
29-07-2006, 23:53
I'd have to say that this is a good time to be patient and wait for the new skills for all the classes to be released before jumping to conclusions.

I mean chances are there is going to be a better combo / setup to run once the game is fully released.

don gudo
30-07-2006, 00:11
I'd have to say that this is a good time to be patient and wait for the new skills for all the classes to be released before jumping to conclusions.

I mean chances are there is going to be a better combo / setup to run once the game is fully released.

Maximum, I think this very lucid point scares me most of all. Factions skills aren't really better than prophecies ones, they're just different, and in some cases, only slightly so. If new skills must be released just so that this HA build is beatable, will players who don't purchase nightfall be able to reasonably compete come the fall, or is GW turning over a new leaf here and making one expansion better than the others? I think I'm going to hope for a swift nerf, and not for your prediction :cutie:

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 01:09
Well, isnt it nice? Out of ALL monk skills, the one that facilitates the spike is none other than contemplation of purity!

One would think the horrid expressionless blue baby face had given that away long time ago!

takplayer
30-07-2006, 01:11
CoP should just cost more and heal less. The removing is fine. 10 energy and half its current heal would be nice.

Inner Salbat
30-07-2006, 01:15
so what's the build so we can see what this CoP is.

Furinto
30-07-2006, 01:23
Contemplation of Purity spikes damage? Wha?

monx
30-07-2006, 01:24
it's all over the GW observer mode.

Inner Salbat
30-07-2006, 01:28
Contemplation of Purity spikes damage? Wha?

Umm okay, CoP when used strips all enchantments coursing them to "end", there are certain actions that happen when Dervish skills are ended which course dmg, thus enchant yourself to the max, which has 0 effect on your bits, walk right in to the enermy, press CoP, they all end massive dmg everywhere.

At least that's my understanding of it without looking at anything.

As to what skills to use, uhmm;

Heart Of Holy Flame
Grenth's Fingers

Is about all I can come up with off the top of my head.

Furinto
30-07-2006, 01:28
Why can't somebody just post the skill combination in question?

Usually people hide uber builds for fear of being nerfed, but it sounds like you guys WANT this to be nerfed, so...


CoP when used strips all enchantments coursing them to "end"Ahh okay I gotcha. But don't the majority of Dervish enchantments which have benefits when they end simply inflict conditions? I might have to go reread some of the skills, but it sounds like all that would happen is the surrounding enemies would become blinded, crippled, and bleeding. This is still powerful, but I wouldn't call that a spike.

don gudo
30-07-2006, 01:30
There are several variations, but here's an idea of how it works.

7 to 8 D/Mo's are used with the skill contemplation of purity.

CoP
Spell. Lose all enchantments. For each one lost, you gain 6...65 health, lose one hex, and lose one condition. 5 1/4 10

Then, the dervish uses 5 or 6 enchantments on himself like these:

Balthazar's Rage
Spell. All nearby foes take 40...88 holy damage. For 20 seconds, this Enchantment does nothing. When this Enchantment ends, you gain 4...9 Health for each successful hit while under the effects of this Enchantment. 10 3/4 5

When these skills are applied, usually done with a countdown, a tremendous amount of area effect damage results from a very quick spellcast. After all of these have been used, contemplation is used to release the enchantments, healing the dervish, giving him energy (due to mysticism), removing all attempted hexes and conditions on him, attaching degeneration via conditions to his opponents, and by this time, due to very short recharges, his enchantments are ready to go again and repeat.

This is then combined with an avatar elite form, such as...

Avatar of Dwayna
Elite Form. For 1...48 seconds, whenever you use a skill, you gain 5...41 Health and lose one Hex. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds. 10 2 5

Provides even more healing and invulnerability to the dervish.

That's a basic rundown of how this spike works.

Icy Spicy
30-07-2006, 01:39
stack up on the enchantments, COP, death to the enemy... really fast...

this is what happens when anet make special effects after enchantment ends... it would be interesting to see how they plan to fix this... they created a class with super tanking ability, very good energy management, high dmg AoE and condition spam, with the ability to turn into avatars and be invulnerably to things... its like a monster lol

Mhordin
30-07-2006, 01:40
Since the beginning of the preview, questions have been raised like "are dervishes overpowered?" or "What bugs will be found using the new classes to abuse pvp?" but I think no one imagined the sheer stupidity of the contemplation of purity (CoP) spike that is taking heroes' ascent by storm. In my opinion and the opinion of many others, something must be immediately done to nerf this build, just like sand shards. Heroes' ascent just isn't fun when an unblockable irresistable area effect damage spike that cannot be averted with hexes or conditions is used constantly. People said iway was taking the fun out of the game - but I think iway would be a huge step in the right direction from this.

Agree, disagree?
Agreed, HA isn't fun anymore, nothing beats CoP spike. IWAY gets rolled, vim gets rolled, bspike gets rolled, sbspike gets rolled, balance gets rolled, rspike gets rolled. It's just stupid, it's like areanet took rock, papper, scissors and threw in apache helicopters. There might be a build specifically designed for CoP spike that can beat it, but I haven't seen it... =/

Also the concept of dervishes is pretty retarded, areanet: "Hey I know, let's make a new class that is dependent on enchantments but gets a boost when they go away!". There aren't any counters to their avatars either...

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 01:42
I usually use Balthazar's Rage, Heart of Holy Flames, Grenth's Finger when near people (thats 3 nuke, 2 of which irresistable) then use I think its called Wounding Strike, the one that causes deep wound, then CoP, which will refund the energy and heal you plus condition people around you, then wait a little bit and repeat the combo, you don't need many combos to kill people. One or Two, at most Three, unless you're against heavily protected people. In that case, more devishes executing the combo will kill them anyway..

Viable (or not so viable) Nerf: (50% chance to fail with Divine Favor 4 or less)

Archegonia Mnium
30-07-2006, 01:54
While I haven't witnessed any fights with CoP, I've got to agree that the exploitive potential of the Dervish's enchantment ending bonuses is absolutely ridiculous. The moment I heard that they benefit from enchantments ending I thought "enchantments on = good; enchantment stripping = better"; it's a win-win situation for the Dervish.

That would be like if a ranger or warrior actually benefited from being crippled somehow.

Premium
30-07-2006, 02:01
And when D/A sand shard spam was pretty funky already...

>_> amazing at what the testers miss

Shallowrain
30-07-2006, 02:03
In their defense, I doubt that anybody woke up that morning and said 'hey, what if I wanted to horribly fail with my attacks?'

I usually view it that one million people given ten minutes will find more wacky things then ten people given one million minutes.

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 02:04
That would be like if a ranger or warrior actually benefited from being crippled somehow.


That's archievable.. Resilient Weapon..
I think the idea is nice, just one or two skills being out of line, thats all.

Alexia of Durham
30-07-2006, 02:09
this is what happens when anet make special effects after enchantment ends... it would be interesting to see how they plan to fix this... they created a class with super tanking ability, very good energy management, high dmg AoE and condition spam, with the ability to turn into avatars and be invulnerably to things... its like a monster lol

has any of you realized this is a preview ??

You can be sure they will avoid one particular build to become über .As for CoP being overpowered :I never heard anyone say this before the dervish appeared .Anyone having played GvG ( only play there ,no other PvP) against heavy spike or degen will tell you CoP in itself will not avoid defeat from those spike-teams .

And this dervish is a brief glance a things to come and by no means the final "deal" .


Viable (or not so viable) Nerf: (50% chance to fail with Divine Favor 4 or less)

that would pretty much solve it .

maxxfury
30-07-2006, 02:22
Maybe if they changed the skills so they only fired the aoe damage IF the skill ends naturally OR if its removed by force by the enemy?

..eg enchant reaches its alloted time of 30 seconds or is shattered/drained/rended ect

Icy Spicy
30-07-2006, 02:23
has any of you realized this is a preview ??

You can be sure they will avoid one particular build to become über .As for CoP being overpowered :I never heard anyone say this before the dervish appeared .Anyone having played GvG ( only play there ,no other PvP) against heavy spike or degen will tell you CoP in itself will not avoid defeat from those spike-teams .

And this dervish is a brief glance a things to come and by no means the final "deal" .


well this brief glance tells you alot, its not a bug with one or two spells, but instead, its the problem with the entire class... problem with balancing...

it doesnt take a genius to figure out that Anet wanted enchants to work that way... all im saying is if that is not going to work, what are they ganna do? redesign the entire class?

galad
30-07-2006, 02:26
well this brief glance tells you alot, its not a bug with one or two spells, but instead, its the problem with the entire class... problem with balancing...

it doesnt take a genius to figure out that Anet wanted enchants to work that way... all im saying is if that is not going to work, what are they ganna do? redesign the entire class?

They pretty much have to give whole class a massive overhaul. Dervish is not balanced atm, at all.

Alexia of Durham
30-07-2006, 02:35
well this brief glance tells you alot, its not a bug with one or two spells, but instead, its the problem with the entire class... problem with balancing...

No,because if you tweak CoP to have a DF requirement in order for it to work ( say >4 or even higher so it'll only work as intended ) that problem is gone.

It's far too ealry to tell - from a preview - how things will be in the end.They could even decide CoP won't work on dervish enchantments ,that would be the end to those builds ( but don't take away its usefulness with mantra of recall,pretty please :grin: )

I remember the exact same discussion was going on about assasins and ritualists and that worked out fine ,so let's just wait and see.

Patccmoi
30-07-2006, 02:38
has any of you realized this is a preview ??

You can be sure they will avoid one particular build to become über .As for CoP being overpowered :I never heard anyone say this before the dervish appeared .Anyone having played GvG ( only play there ,no other PvP) against heavy spike or degen will tell you CoP in itself will not avoid defeat from those spike-teams .

And this dervish is a brief glance a things to come and by no means the final "deal" .



that would pretty much solve it .

Actually, before the CoP nerf to 10 sec it was quite a bit overpowered... but that's beside the point and let's not argue on this.

This build is badly overpowered clearly, but i don't really understand why people talk as if it's the effect on enchant ending that matters. It's not. The effect on enchant ending are VERY minor and hardly kill anything (some burning, cripple... compared to 300 nearby AOE damage from applying the enchants, 200 of which is Holy... it's NOTHING).

I posted the D/Mo build last night after owning in RA/TA most of the day with it in the 'Are Dervish Overpowered' thread. It was very close to unbeatable, and no one else i faced used it atm so we just roled over everything.

Went in HA tonight and that's all there is, small variations of the exact same mass D/Mo fight.

The problem with CoP ending enchant is absolutely not the effect of the enchants ending. It's that it heals you full (42-45 health PER ENCHANT, usually 4-5), and recharges all your energy (+7-8E per enchant...), and with the short recycle of the damage enchants, you can just cycle them over and over, CoP, restart. You never lack energy, you get rid of any hex or condition making any kind of shutdown nearly unthinkable, and it becomes a huge self-heal.

RoF is also what allows Dervish to stay alive, it gives them a huge health and energy boost when it ends so they can just keep cycling through their stuff alternating with a RoF in the middle.

Personally i think CoP is fine. But here's what i think would be good changes for Dervish atm to prevent the D/Mo from totally destroying HA and also all arenas (3 D/Mos with RoF-CoP and different utility + boon-prot is quite devastating in TA... if you lose, you just screwed bad... or face other D/Mos)

1) Health gained from an enchant ending reduced to 2 per level. It's stupid that CoPing your enchants gives you something like 200-250 health when you can recast them in seconds. Even 1 health per level would be acceptable imo, but if they want Dervish to be steady melee and not assassin-like, 2 might be required, hard to say without testing.

2) Mysticism only works on Dervish enchantments. It's WAY WAY WAY too good with RoF. It just is. You gain energy from using RoF, get healed more because of enchant ending, so you can just recast it every 2 sec with no cost at all (it's actually emanagement...). Otherwise it could be something like benefit from Mysticism is halved for other classes enchants. But it's just stupid as it is now, badly so. I don't think it needs a nerf related to Dervish Enchantments though, because with their energy cost, recharge, effects, etc. Mysticism as it is is kinda needed. But it does surclass even Expertise as a primary imo, and that's scary.

3) Holy damage needs to be GREATLY toned down, or changed type. Balthazar's Rage + Heart of Holy Fire are simply broken, and make warriors totally pointless. Warriors can do nothing but run if there's a Dervish spamming it around them. Frenzy is extremely funny too, 200 damage per enchant cast... too good. Seriously just compare to Smiting holy damage, it's not even close. Balthazar's Rage does the same as a full Symbol of Wrath in instant, in a bigger AOE, casting much faster, recharging much faster. Balanced? Right.

4) CoP 50% fail with DF 4 or less isn't a bad idea for Dervish balancing, but i kinda hope it's not necessary if the rest is changed. But atm it does make Dervish all but pointless to hex or condition, they have so many enchants, they can just CoP everything.

Alexia of Durham
30-07-2006, 02:42
Actually, before the CoP nerf to 10 sec it was quite a bit overpowered... but that's beside the point and let's not argue on this.

This build is badly overpowered clearly, but i don't really understand why people talk as if it's the effect on enchant ending that matters. It's not. The effect on enchant ending are VERY minor and hardly kill anything (some burning, cripple... compared to 300 nearby AOE damage from applying the enchants, 200 of which is Holy... it's NOTHING).

I posted the D/Mo build last night after owning in RA/TA most of the day with it in the 'Are Dervish Overpowered' thread. It was very close to unbeatable, and no one else i faced used it atm so we just roled over everything.

Went in HA tonight and that's all there is, small variations of the exact same mass D/Mo fight.

The problem with CoP ending enchant is absolutely not the effect of the enchants ending. It's that it heals you full (42-45 health PER ENCHANT, usually 4-5), and recharges all your energy (+7-8E per enchant...), and with the short recycle of the damage enchants, you can just cycle them over and over, CoP, restart. You never lack energy, you get rid of any hex or condition making any kind of shutdown nearly unthinkable, and it becomes a huge self-heal.

RoF is also what allows Dervish to stay alive, it gives them a huge health and energy boost when it ends so they can just keep cycling through their stuff alternating with a RoF in the middle.

Personally i think CoP is fine. But here's what i think would be good changes for Dervish atm to prevent the D/Mo from totally destroying HA and also all arenas (3 D/Mos with RoF-CoP and different utility + boon-prot is quite devastating in TA... if you lose, you just screwed bad... or face other D/Mos)

1) Health gained from an enchant ending reduced to 2 per level. It's stupid that CoPing your enchants gives you something like 200-250 health when you can recast them in seconds. Even 1 health per level would be acceptable imo, but if they want Dervish to be steady melee and not assassin-like, 2 might be required, hard to say without testing.

2) Mysticism only works on Dervish enchantments. It's WAY WAY WAY too good with RoF. It just is. You gain energy from using RoF, get healed more because of enchant ending, so you can just recast it every 2 sec with no cost at all (it's actually emanagement...). Otherwise it could be something like benefit from Mysticism is halved for other classes enchants. But it's just stupid as it is now, badly so. I don't think it needs a nerf related to Dervish Enchantments though, because with their energy cost, recharge, effects, etc. Mysticism as it is is kinda needed. But it does surclass even Expertise as a primary imo, and that's scary.

3) Holy damage needs to be GREATLY toned down, or changed type. Balthazar's Rage + Heart of Holy Fire are simply broken, and make warriors totally pointless. Warriors can do nothing but run if there's a Dervish spamming it around them. Frenzy is extremely funny too, 200 damage per enchant cast... too good. Seriously just compare to Smiting holy damage, it's not even close. Balthazar's Rage does the same as a full Symbol of Wrath in instant, in a bigger AOE, casting much faster, recharging much faster. Balanced? Right.

4) CoP 50% fail with DF 4 or less isn't a bad idea for Dervish balancing, but i kinda hope it's not necessary if the rest is changed. But atm it does make Dervish all but pointless to hex or condition, they have so many enchants, they can just CoP everything.



Finally the voice of reason :)

Benovolent Zephyr
30-07-2006, 02:48
4) CoP 50% fail with DF 4 or less isn't a bad idea for Dervish balancing, but i kinda hope it's not necessary if the rest is changed. But atm it does make Dervish all but pointless to hex or condition, they have so many enchants, they can just CoP everything.


I like that idea the best, then again who knows when the game acctually does come out perhaps there are a few surprises waiting for us.

suikoden
30-07-2006, 03:00
Easy fix... make it work on monk enchants only or even better make it work on everything expect dervish enchants lol

BunnyLord
30-07-2006, 03:04
I'm not too worried about this, I'm sure ANET will fix this problem before GW:N comes out.

Erasculio
30-07-2006, 03:05
The funny thing is, if the Dervishes weren't as good as they are, people would likely dismiss them as "just another failed melee profession, like the Assassin". With the way things are right now, you can rub on people's face how useful a Dervish is to a team. No more "if it's not a Wa/Mo tank, a nuker or a Monk healer it's useless" comments.

I'm afraid they are going to be overnerfed, but...There are two Dervish skills that remove all enchantments, one of them being Mystic Sandstorms (that also does AoE damage when removing said enchantments). If nerfing CoP would solve the problem, I think those could stay as they are, but...

Erasculio

Arctus Redryn
30-07-2006, 03:14
The funny thing is, if the Dervishes weren't as good as they are, people would likely dismiss them as "just another failed melee profession, like the Assassin". With the way things are right now, you can rub on people's face how useful a Dervish is to a team. No more "if it's not a Wa/Mo tank, a nuker or a Monk healer it's useless" comments.

I'm afraid they are going to be overnerfed, but...There are two Dervish skills that remove all enchantments, one of them being Mystic Sandstorms (that also does AoE damage when removing said enchantments). If nerfing CoP would solve the problem, I think those could stay as they are, but...

Erasculio

No, the main problem is Mysticism and some of the enchantment spells. Those enchantment spells are too damaging for their energy, recharge, and cast time, and Mysticism allows you to use those spells. As you said, there are other ways of removing all enchantments...of course, Contemplation of Purity is still better because it is a skill, requires less energy, and removes Conditions and Hexes, but I do not think only changing Contemplation to have the Divine Favor requirement would be enough.

Patccmoi
30-07-2006, 03:21
No, the main problem is Mysticism and some of the enchantment spells. Those enchantment spells are too damaging for their energy, recharge, and cast time, and Mysticism allows you to use those spells. As you said, there are other ways of removing all enchantments...of course, Contemplation of Purity is still better because it is a skill, requires less energy, and removes Conditions and Hexes, but I do not think only changing Contemplation to have the Divine Favor requirement would be enough.

Really not. In the changes i consider needed, this one imo is the most 'accessory' one.

As long as they can deal 100s of Holy Damage in Nearby AOE every 5-10 sec, they're just going to be overpowered. It's far, far too strong.

Arctus Redryn
30-07-2006, 03:29
Really not. In the changes i consider needed, this one imo is the most 'accessory' one.

As long as they can deal 100s of Holy Damage in Nearby AOE every 5-10 sec, they're just going to be overpowered. It's far, far too strong.

That is what I said, right?

Contemplation of Purity is not the main problem.

Apok Omni
30-07-2006, 03:31
Off-Topic: I am soo glad to hear possible nerfs to Dervish coming from one source; the people who played them.

On-Topic: Anet, if you are paying attention to this thread, I suggest that you nerf CoP the way it is mentioned. Dervish are way too overpowered.

Arctus Redryn
30-07-2006, 03:38
On-Topic: Anet, if you are paying attention to this thread, I suggest that you nerf CoP the way it is mentioned. Dervish are way too overpowered.

Main problem is still with Mysticism and some of the Enchantments (Balthazar's Rage and Heart of Holy Flame...).

I was actually looking at Mystic Sandstorm as a replacement for Contemplation, as it can inflict quite a bit of damage.

Hates
30-07-2006, 03:45
No more "if it's not a Wa/Mo tank, a nuker or a Monk healer it's useless" comments.

Who says this? Why do you listen to these people?

Anyway, I've stayed away from a lot of PvP this weekend because of these mega damage things the Dervishes do. I don't have enjoy dealing with imbalance.

mrankh
30-07-2006, 03:48
Welcome to a BETA weekend. Did u know that in the factions weekend there were unbeleviably powerful builds, all of which got swiftly nerfed, some of which werent even mentioned on the update page. I have no worries that gw will remain balanced. the reason they have these weekends is to find the overpowered skills, and portion them to size with the other chapters and skills. The skills will remain useable, but there sheer power will be reduced, im sure of it. So stop your worrying and play the BETA!!!

El Cerouni
30-07-2006, 04:04
The funny thing is, Anet realised there was going to be Smiting Dervishes, it's why they nerfed balthazar's Aura and Zealots Fire.

Well done on the CoP find to those who found it though, I had a build exactly like that but couldn't figure out the enchant needed to drop all those 30 second enchants.

Although, Even if they nerf CoP a Dervish Smiter still works.
This was my build when I couldn't find a decent enchant removal (Didn't think of CoP :/), I basically just used the skills they nerfed and made a smiter.

Prot: 6
Smiting: 12
Mysticism: 11 + 4

1: Pious Renewal
2: Zealot's Fire
3: Balthazar's Aura
4: RoF
5: Guardian
6: Life Sheath {E}
7: Balthazar's Rage
8: Zealot's Fire

Edit: Quick Brainstorm of Counters:
Nature's Renewal maybe, or Dazed, if they can't get the enchants on in the first place, then they can't CoP them back off.
Also, Kiting is key, I remember that the problem was that once you got near and tried to cast a spell, by the time the spell finished they were too far away for the spell's effect to work, which made it quite frustrating.
Deep Freeze and Frozen Spikes can also work wonders as They tend to travel in packs.
You also probably don't want a warrior initiating the strike. I liked the All caster Rainbow Spike Capita Ceberi Ran during the Extra slot Season. It began with a mesmer's Phantom Pain and Shatter Delusions, I'm not sure if the Phantom Pain's Deep Wound stays on if the Phantom Pain gets CoPed off though.

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 04:13
By shutting dervishes from CoP, it opens up a lot of ways to kill them though. Keep in mind that the current spikes are pbaoe, dervishes are easily kited if hex / condition work on them.

Slow hex on melandru dervs, cripple on dwayna dervs, muddy terrain or cripple or slow hex vs balth dervs..

Though I agree, their nukes (especially the 2 holy ones) will probably not last to release in its current form. Making them DoTs would work (think balth aura), so at least the damage aren't spikes, and can at least be countered. That will make them PvE unfriendly.. however..

If the two classes are built with PvE in mind, that is not viable.. Well.. who knows

Unknown Kaos
30-07-2006, 04:19
This entire weekend has almost seemed like a horrible joke gone wrong. I know Anet is just trying to use the best tools for finding bugs like this, which is the entire GW population (And dont get me wrong, people need to exploit these things now so they will be nerfed later), but the fact that its on an open ladder season is rediculous. There have been so many gimic builds to farm with, those guilds of ours that actualy try to run real balanced builds get completely screwed over. And when we do seem to play a respectable team, we have had 1, 2, or more people error7 due to the overloaded servers caused by the event.

What has been done in HA can't really be reverted, but my guilds rating has suffered greatly just because we wished to keep gvging instead of either sitting out the entire weekend, or resorting to using these...dare I say...noob, overpowered, gimic builds.

I have noticed many guilds have been effected by this, good and bad, but I personaly think it would be in the best interest of the GW community (Or at least the GW community that participates in GvG) to revert the individual guild ratings back to what they were before the friday update, when everything seemed to start going wrong. And I'm sure the only people that would dissagree are those who have used these gimic builds to gain hundreds or more rating this weekend alone.

I XM
30-07-2006, 04:25
2) Mysticism only works on Dervish enchantments. It's WAY WAY WAY too good with RoF. It just is. You gain energy from using RoF, get healed more because of enchant ending, so you can just recast it every 2 sec with no cost at all (it's actually emanagement...). Otherwise it could be something like benefit from Mysticism is halved for other classes enchants. But it's just stupid as it is now, badly so. I don't think it needs a nerf related to Dervish Enchantments though, because with their energy cost, recharge, effects, etc. Mysticism as it is is kinda needed. But it does surclass even Expertise as a primary imo, and that's scary.


I agree with most of what you said except this. If Mysticism only works on Dervish enchants, then Expertise should only work on Ranger skills. The whole reason (I am guessing) that the last 3 attack/caster hybrids (assassins, dervishes and paragons) have had energy management primaries is to counter expertise and make R/X not the default for any X that's an attacking class.

The issue is that the more classes and attributes they add, the more combinations will be possible. Already you see existing skills being changed for this reason, like Arcane Mimicry. And it will get worse with each chapter. But since they can't use a subscription model, (by choice mostly, but also because the game isn't close enough to an MMO for people to accept paying monthly for it) it means they need to keep releasing new chapters or funds for running the servers and keeping a live team to update the game will dry out.

These new classes are the furthest they have gone in the fighter/mage direction (or fighter/bard for the Paragon) so far and there's bound to be imbalances when the class in and of itself can do things that previously required mixing 2 classes to make a hybrid. If you look at the attribute trees, it's more like you have 3-class chracter after you've added a secondary, comapred to the core and faction classses.

My guess is Dervishes will get nerfed real bad. The AoE spells will deal a lot less damage and have longer cooldowns/cast time, maybe. Some of the more overpowered skills might even get completely changed or nerfed to the point of being mostly useless (c.f Shadow Refuge and Temple Strike, from preview weekends to the final versions). Nerfing is the only thing they can do as they add more skills and attributes, boosting other skills becomes more and more complicated for balancing, because boosting something is more likely to lead to an imlabance than nerfing something popular until people stop using it.

By the 5th chapter (if any) this game will be unplayable.

Darris
30-07-2006, 05:22
The main problem I see with CoP is the condition/hex removal. I was thinking about the 4> or a 50% failure but that leaves every other class with a 50% failure as well. So instead of a complete failure all-together, what about "You lose 1...10 enchantsments. For each enchantment removed this way you gain 6...70 health (forgot the exact numbers) lose one condition, lose one hex." This keeps the skill useful for other classes for an emergency hex/condition removal but keeps it handy for monk primaries.

There are still other skills that remove all dervish enchants like Release Enchants which has a 5 second recharge and gives the party a tiny heal and Sandstorm which does nice aoe damage to enemy parties. So the complete removal isn't a huge issue aside from the massive energy gain, it's the hex/condition/doubleheal removal that makes the Dirvish all but unstopable.

I love the Dervish class and the design behind them. They're a fun class to play and they fit their description to the letter. I just find myself playing the paragon more and more lately. There's a lot of depth to that class that I find lacking in the Dervish skill line.

Shim Sham a Shoola
30-07-2006, 05:32
Hm... CoP spike. Sounds like a job for mesmers.

Let's give this build time to have a counter built against it. Just because it's rediculously easy to cause damage with it doesn't mean there isn't a way to make it too risky or impractical to use.

There is an assassin skill that prevents a target from getting enchantments. Use that on any dervish you see. Use mesmers for e-denial and spike the monks. Mesmers and assassins shouldn't be overlooked so much.


Agreed, HA isn't fun anymore, nothing beats CoP spike. IWAY gets rolled, vim gets rolled, bspike gets rolled, sbspike gets rolled, balance gets rolled, rspike gets rolled.
Maybe it's time to move away from cookie cutter builds then, eh?:wink:

Arctus Redryn
30-07-2006, 05:37
By shutting dervishes from CoP, it opens up a lot of ways to kill them though. Keep in mind that the current spikes are pbaoe, dervishes are easily kited if hex / condition work on them.

Slow hex on melandru dervs, cripple on dwayna dervs, muddy terrain or cripple or slow hex vs balth dervs..

Though I agree, their nukes (especially the 2 holy ones) will probably not last to release in its current form. Making them DoTs would work (think balth aura), so at least the damage aren't spikes, and can at least be countered. That will make them PvE unfriendly.. however..

If the two classes are built with PvE in mind, that is not viable.. Well.. who knows

Which is what we want, of course, a counter to Dervishes. However, there was a Dervish skill that removed an enchantment and removed 3 Hexes at 12 Wind Prayers (I think). Forgot the name. Melandru form with this skill might work.

Slygar
30-07-2006, 05:47
CoP was the first thign I wanted to try with Dervish. Guess I got beat to it :(

Although Dervish itself is one thing that obviously needs to be reworked, I still think CoP needs a nerf as well (as someone said earlier.) Right along with Healing Hands.. those 2 spells are just too spammable.

Darris
30-07-2006, 05:47
Hm... CoP spike. Sounds like a job for mesmers.

Let's give this build time to have a counter built against it. Just because it's rediculously easy to cause damage with it doesn't mean there isn't a way to make it too risky or impractical to use.

There is an assassin skill that prevents a target from getting enchantments. Use that on any dervish you see. Use mesmers for e-denial and spike the monks. Mesmers and assassins shouldn't be overlooked so much.




Indeed shadow shroud does prevent someone from being the target of enchantments. However, it's a hex and CoP takes care of that with no sweat. Edenial is a no brainer as well. Any self-respecting D/Mo takes a -5 energy or +15 energy item to "hide" their energy reserves in case of e-denial. When fully drained, just switch to that "hidden" source of energy and CoP. Full energy in 1/4 of a second with the click of a button. I can deffinatly understand the current frustration of players wracking their brains for a counter to this uber-class.

The only ways I can think of that are a fool-proof enchant strip is either Well of the Profane (again, which any self-respecting player wont "stand" in that well for very long) and chillblains/rend enchants, one which carries a heavy price (omg, poison for how long?) and one which you better not use while standing next to said Dervish, and leaves 5 other D/Mos hitting "T" to assist train your soon-to-be corpse.

don gudo
30-07-2006, 05:51
Hm... CoP spike. Sounds like a job for mesmers.

Let's give this build time to have a counter built against it. Just because it's rediculously easy to cause damage with it doesn't mean there isn't a way to make it too risky or impractical to use.

There is an assassin skill that prevents a target from getting enchantments. Use that on any dervish you see. Use mesmers for e-denial and spike the monks. Mesmers and assassins shouldn't be overlooked so much.


As nice as this would be, I think it comes from a blissful ignorance of the real situation in heroes' ascent with this build. The assasin skills doesn't last long enough and can't do squat when there are 7 (count em, 7) dervishes on the opposing team, e denial is a joke when dervishes have 4 pips and gain energy from just about anything (and nothing) done to them, and monks aren't even needed in these spikes, because everything they do heals themselves.

I don't mean that so much as an argument against what you said as a call for people to not dismiss this as "the new build" that nobody knows how to beat. When a class can do more pbaoe damage than any other, while healing itself at a tremendous rate, and any sensical attacks against it (think, enchant strip?) actually HELP it more, then, as we have with dervish, we start to see a problem with balance =/.

Nerf please.

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 06:02
Well, The matches I've observed so far (all at halls) the D/Mos gets owned.

It seems like there is very little they can do when against an experienced FoC spike team.

Darris
30-07-2006, 06:05
Well, The matches I've observed so far (all at halls) the D/Mos gets owned.

It seems like there is very little they can do when against an experienced FoC spike team.

I'm seeing a good deal of counters as well to this now. Mordred Knight's team consisting of all N/Mos and one Rit, one Oath Shot ranger, and one heal Monk are charging the halls and holding it there before anyone else has a chance to take it. Very well-organized team, and it tickles me pink :heart: to see someone work their way around the D/Mo zerg in progress.

Edit: They are doing well against unorganized D/Mo teams, I wonder how balanced GvG is against D/Mo's.

ShadowCeiling
30-07-2006, 06:27
I don't think it's the End of Guild Wars, in fact it's more like a rebirth, cause in essence, the metagame is radically changing. This change in Metagame its seriously needed. Yeah, D/Mo isn't that hard to get through, with enough degen and spikes you go done in less than a minute. I'm sure black out and other skill/spell stopping builds could stop this. Also, remember, they haven't given any skills to the core classes to even seriously counter a lot these new mechanics they put in. There isn't shout removal, or form removal (I seriously hope they had a form shutdown mechanism or something, make it an elite, I don't care.... cause three Derv's in god form seriously is too overpowering, something needs to be done about it.) So I'd wait a bit before coming to the conclusion that it's the end of it all... And there will be nerfing soon, I'm guaranteeing it.

Darris
30-07-2006, 06:49
I don't think it's the End of Guild Wars, in fact it's more like a rebirth, cause in essence, the metagame is radically changing. This change in Metagame its seriously needed. Yeah, D/Mo isn't that hard to get through, with enough degen and spikes you go done in less than a minute. I'm sure black out and other skill/spell stopping builds could stop this. Also, remember, they haven't given any skills to the core classes to even seriously counter a lot these new mechanics they put in. There isn't shout removal, or form removal (I seriously hope they had a form shutdown mechanism or something, make it an elite, I don't care.... cause three Derv's in god form seriously is too overpowering, something needs to be done about it.) So I'd wait a bit before coming to the conclusion that it's the end of it all... And there will be nerfing soon, I'm guaranteeing it.


Looks like a nay'sayer to theh impendin' guildpocolypse. We's gonna need ourselves an angry mob to deal wit' tha like of 'im. :angry2:

(On a side-note, this is prolly my last troll post for the night. Sorry :embarassed: )

tarutaru
30-07-2006, 07:21
I think I'll just throw in my two cents here (seeing as I was on Pat's team in TA for a good portion of the time that we were rolling). Everything he said was completely true. We never lost to any other team other than a team of D/Mo's, and even those had a difficult time conquering us.

Anyway, I personally see a VERY easy fix to all this on Anet's part, as it would not take much effort at all. I envision them changing Mysticism's mechanics so that the ending enchantment has to end NATURALLY, ala Mantra of Recall style. With that Mantra, if it is stripped early, you don't get its benefit. The same should go with Mysticism. If the enchantment comes off prematurely, you don't gain any beneft from the primary attribute. Simple as that, as that would completely curb the ability for the Dervish to continually recast the AoE dmg enchants with their now-infinite energy pool.

Psychotic
30-07-2006, 08:03
Try this out:
Balthazars Rage - 92 AoE Holy.
Heart of Holy Flame - 76 AoE Holy. On fire for 3 sec when ends
Dust Cloak - 80 AoE Earth. Blind for 4 sec when ends
Staggering Force - 80 AoE Earth. Weakness for 8 seconds when ends
Aura of Thorns - 8 seconds of cripple when cast, 12 seconds of bleeding when ends
Mystic Sandstorm - Lose all enchants, all nearby foes take 27 damage for each enchant you lose this way, max at 130.
"Victory is Mine!" - gain 41 health and 5 energy for each condition suffered by a foe in earshot.
Res Sig

Attributes:
8 Tactics
9 Wind Prayers (8+1)
10 Earth (9+1) (i don't have minor earth unlocked, or this would be 11)
12 Mysticism (11+1)

I used a +15/-1 weapon and focus to get me to 58 max energy, which is enough to run the combo.
Run through all 5 enchants, than drop them all with mystic standstorm. Thats 458 damage AoE, plus you get healed for 180 and gain 30 energy back(you use 55 energy). Your foes are suffering from bleeding, weakness, blindness, burning, and cripple. Activate ViM. For each foe, you will gain +20 Net Energy, and 205 health.
This puts you at full health and energy normally. Once your skills are recharged, go at it again.

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 08:59
I think I'll just throw in my two cents here (seeing as I was on Pat's team in TA for a good portion of the time that we were rolling). Everything he said was completely true. We never lost to any other team other than a team of D/Mo's, and even those had a difficult time conquering us.

Anyway, I personally see a VERY easy fix to all this on Anet's part, as it would not take much effort at all. I envision them changing Mysticism's mechanics so that the ending enchantment has to end NATURALLY, ala Mantra of Recall style. With that Mantra, if it is stripped early, you don't get its benefit. The same should go with Mysticism. If the enchantment comes off prematurely, you don't gain any beneft from the primary attribute. Simple as that, as that would completely curb the ability for the Dervish to continually recast the AoE dmg enchants with their now-infinite energy pool.


I believe that would be what others refer to as an "over-nerf"...

They're almost completely reliant on enchants being removed, even if it is by themselves. That is the new mechanics introduced, along with an AoE attack weapon (can't believe I guessed that one right btw XD)

takplayer
30-07-2006, 09:18
I think I'll just throw in my two cents here (seeing as I was on Pat's team in TA for a good portion of the time that we were rolling). Everything he said was completely true. We never lost to any other team other than a team of D/Mo's, and even those had a difficult time conquering us.

Anyway, I personally see a VERY easy fix to all this on Anet's part, as it would not take much effort at all. I envision them changing Mysticism's mechanics so that the ending enchantment has to end NATURALLY, ala Mantra of Recall style. With that Mantra, if it is stripped early, you don't get its benefit. The same should go with Mysticism. If the enchantment comes off prematurely, you don't gain any beneft from the primary attribute. Simple as that, as that would completely curb the ability for the Dervish to continually recast the AoE dmg enchants with their now-infinite energy pool.

You still gain the energy from Mantra of Recall if it ends early...

You might be thinking of Wastrel's Worry, in which you don't get the damage if it ends early?

Ashin
30-07-2006, 09:51
For me its pretty clear that the demo phenomenon is totally out of hand.

a.net was quoted in some interview as stating that they have a pretty good sense of game balance now and can get things pretty close to right on the first try. This weekend seems to indicate the contrary. :sealed:

tarutaru
30-07-2006, 09:58
You still gain the energy from Mantra of Recall if it ends early...

You might be thinking of Wastrel's Worry, in which you don't get the damage if it ends early?

Yep, that's it. I really should stop posting past midnight. My brain stops functioning correctly somewhere around 11pm...

galad
30-07-2006, 10:04
I believe that would be what others refer to as an "over-nerf"...

They're almost completely reliant on enchants being removed, even if it is by themselves. That is the new mechanics introduced, along with an AoE attack weapon (can't believe I guessed that one right btw XD)

That mechanic isn't working. Changing mysticism to work like that would be viable fix, then enchant removals would actually hurt dervish. For now it's "nice remove more of my enchants".

lavenbb
30-07-2006, 10:11
That mechanic isn't working. Changing mysticism to work like that would be viable fix, then enchant removals would actually hurt dervish. For now it's "nice remove more of my enchants".

That's why you need other ways to deal with them, and people already found out how. People still don't get how to deal with enchants without removing them, even though the tools are already littered at their feet. Watch more HA battles. Apparently the fotm FoC spike has no problem dealing with them. Ritual lord balanced team also has no problem dealing with them. I really don't think a complete overhaul with mysticism is needed. For one, IWAY was never nerfed to the point where the build is unusable. Fix the broken derv skills and CoP and its good.

LongFo
30-07-2006, 10:58
D/Mo´s doesnt seam to be the "uber supreme super team" some of you seam to think. I havn´t played with or against them myself but I´ve watched alot of HA fights now and I´ve not seen any D/Mo team win at all yet...

... but go ahead and nerf away the Dervish and lets see a new class being ignored when trying to get into groups in both PvE and PvP.

I can´t say I´ve done to much research on this build but if this is so overpowered and easy why isn´t any of the D/Mo teams winning favor ?

Servant of Kali
30-07-2006, 11:45
I can´t say I´ve done to much research on this build but if this is so overpowered and easy why isn´t any of the D/Mo teams winning favor ?

What on earth are you talking about, DMo teams were almost the only ones winning favor whole day yesterday, along with winning GvG battles. Havent you seen ANY? GvG battles end in 1:30-2:00 minutes!

When i woke up now HA is a bit different cause one guild has nice holding build... but still so many DMo's in HoH. They r getting owned by seed and bond monks..

Alexia of Durham
30-07-2006, 12:09
Easy fix... make it work on monk enchants only or even better make it work on everything expect dervish enchants lol

exactly . This isn't a complicated fix .Do this and it's solved .Make CoP work on all but dervish-enchantments and the problem is gone .There's no need to nerf CoP for this ,just change the way the skill works (i.e. : on all but dervish enchantments ) .

Nanashi
30-07-2006, 12:48
Everybody should know it's gunna get nerfed before release. It's inevitable. The sins dominated for quite some time in PVP during their PVP weekend and I can tell you right now they're very little as to what they were when we first got our hands on them. So like Max said earlier, don't jump to conclusions. When we get the FPE, they'll be changed.

xFallenAngel
30-07-2006, 13:00
*Sarcasm on*
Ever fought a Boon Prot Monk?
It's basically exactly the same, get your enchants running and then CoP them to get rid of conditions/hexes and get major health and energy(MoR), with extra health from DF on every Monk spell(which especacially makes RoF worthwhile...again the same as with Dervishes basically who get extra health from RoF too).
Recast, rinse, repeat.
I guess that means Boon Prot Monks are utterly invincible too...and they can even heal others! OMFG!
Better tell them quick in case they don't notice themselves that they are invincible and can heal other classes to boot.
*Sarcasm off*

It really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be.
GW has a long history of Fotm builds taking the Hall/Ascent in storm and crushing everyone to tiny bits until people have had some time to get used to it and realize what's actually happening.

Two observations if I may:

1. Outside of like 3 different Dervish builds(including the "CoP Spike") that actually work nicely, all other Dervishs out there get slaughtered in about 10 seconds flat. 15 with Melandru's Avatar :P
Been there done that, left countless Dervish corpses behind me this weekend, the ones using one of the builds mentioned above actually take some effort to kill, but that's how it should be, I don't enjoy steamrolling helpless professions.
Do a knee-jerk reaction nerfing to the few things Dervishs can do well and we have a useless class due to overnerf and a class forum full of people complaining all the time.

2. Ever encountered one or two of those CoP Spikers in Random?
They tend to do jack nothing, what with everyone running about like headless chickens and their AoE enchants only hitting air all the time.
Thing is, the more "organized" it's supposed to get(from RA to TA to Ascent/GVG), the more people tend to instinctively bunch together and get owned by area effects.
Focus Trap Rangers, Aoe Smite, EQ-AS and countless other builds simply pulverize teams that stick *too* closely together.
CoP spike is just another notch on that list.

Or as I like to say, the weak complain, the strong just shrug it off and win next time :P
If it was really overpowered, I'd be for nerfing it too, but as it stands I say give it more time and let people get used to it. Several teams have already started to win regularly against it, it's obviously not as bad as some people make it out to be.

Abrupt
30-07-2006, 13:03
What I don't understand is why everyone is calling for a nerf/change for CoP. Even if it was changed, there are plenty of other ways for a dervish to disenchant themselves. Here's what I would suggest to fix this situation:


1. Dust Cloak, Grenth's Fingers, Heart of Holy Flame, Balthazar's Rage, Staggering Force and possibly Aura of Thorns need to have their recharges increased to around 25 seconds.

2. Mysticism should only trigger when a Dervish enchantment ends.

Xunlai Agent
30-07-2006, 13:03
I was on Pat and Taru's team too and I think they have both made quite valid points. I would like to use my post to respond to the people that this is a preview and that it has no real effect on anything. Have any of you watched Obs TV? The ladder was completely broken by this and so was HA. Guild Rank and Fame were just about free and the damage could be considered devastating to all the guilds that didn't use the weekend to rush the ladder. This is a huge problem and it makes the current ratings pretty invalid considering the amount of guilds that used the Dervish/Monks and the Sand Shards builds...

Nanashi
30-07-2006, 13:08
*Sarcasm on*
Ever fought a Boon Prot Monk?
It's basically exactly the same, get your enchants running and then CoP them to get rid of conditions/hexes and get major health and energy(MoR), with extra health from DF on every Monk spell(which especacially makes RoF worthwhile...again the same as with Dervishes basically who get extra health from RoF too).
Recast, rinse, repeat.
I guess that means Boon Prot Monks are utterly invincible too...and they can even heal others! OMFG!
Better tell them quick in case they don't notice themselves that they are invincible and can heal other classes to boot.
*Sarcasm off*

It really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be.
GW has a long history of Fotm builds taking the Hall/Ascent in storm and crushing everyone to tiny bits until people have had some time to get used to it and realize what's actually happening.

Two observations if I may:

1. Outside of like 3 different Dervish builds(including the "CoP Spike") that actually work nicely, all other Dervishs out there get slaughtered in about 10 seconds flat. 15 with Melandru's Avatar :P
Been there done that, left countless Dervish corpses behind me this weekend, the ones using one of the builds mentioned above actually take some effort to kill, but that's how it should be, I don't enjoy steamrolling helpless professions.
Do a knee-jerk reaction nerfing to the few things Dervishs can do well and we have a useless class due to overnerf and a class forum full of people complaining all the time.

2. Ever encountered one or two of those CoP Spikers in Random?
They tend to do jack nothing, what with everyone running about like headless chickens and their AoE enchants only hitting air all the time.
Thing is, the more "organized" it's supposed to get(from RA to TA to Ascent/GVG), the more people tend to instinctively bunch together and get owned by area effects.
Focus Trap Rangers, Aoe Smite, EQ-AS and countless other builds simply pulverize teams that stick *too* closely together.
CoP spike is just another notch on that list.

Or as I like to say, the weak complain, the strong just shrug it off and win next time :P
If it was really overpowered, I'd be for nerfing it too, but as it stands I say give it more time and let people get used to it. Several teams have already started to win regularly against it, it's obviously not as bad as some people make it out to be.

Sins got the same complaints when they first came out. It's only natural. People see something they can't beat just by a first confrontation thus complain instead of thinking of a strat to do something. Enchantments alone are crucial for the Dervs, dispell them you hinder their damage by a few.

Other than that, nerfs will come that's why they are letting us play a little way before it's release. We're beta testing the role in which this class will play during PVP.

diox
30-07-2006, 13:12
[...]
Attributes:
8 Tactics
9 Wind Prayers (8+1)
10 Earth (9+1) (i don't have minor earth unlocked, or this would be 11)
12 Mysticism (11+1)

I used a +15/-1 weapon and focus to get me to 58 max energy, which is enough to run the combo. [...]


Ahem, you are telling us that you ran a 3 professions build?

Edit: got it, thanks for clarifying :-) That's the problem when you can't access GW in a preview event :\

Akirai Annuvil
30-07-2006, 13:22
I agree that Mysticism needs to be nerfed at least a bit (less energy gain per rank could also solve the problem I think... 1 Energy per 4 ranks maybe then you only gain 3 energy per enchantment on you when they end while they cost 10 to cast which isn't really overpowered in my opinion).

Besides the whole idea about their enchantments having an effect when they end was that they wouldn't be stripped all the time; then the Dervishes would be useless. Well of the Profane is GREAT against them. ESPECIALLY if they don't stand in the Well, because then you can blast them from afar.

Please think before making silly replies... they're no harder to beat than other PBAoE Teams. They're only REAL power is their holy damage; but in both cases it's logical if that would be changed to fire (Balthazar=God of flames and fire ele's and Heart of Holy FLAME!!) so no more *irressistible* 200 damage every 9 seconds :)

@Diox: With Earth the guy(/girl) means Earth Prayers NOT Earth Magic ;)

Karmakin
30-07-2006, 13:24
Playing in RA last night, it was full of D/Mo builds. Our guild group went better than 50% against them (yay), but I still think there's something wrong there, namely in that we had to VASTLY outplay the other team to beat them. One mistake and boom, it was over.

So let's talk about nerfing.

CoP:Ha. No. The "CoP spike" alone only does a few conditions. It's annoying, but to be honest, it's overcomable. The healing is substantial, but it's the same as an infuse.

The attack enchantments:. I like these things, to be honest.

The problem is the power of mysticism itself which powers the energy requirements of the build. Cut the energy gain in half, make it one energy for every 4 ranks of mysticism...the build can spike..carefully, and it'll still be around, but it'll be downgraded enough to make it in line with everything else.

Rastapopolous
30-07-2006, 13:27
Ahem, you are telling us that you ran a 3 professions build?
Earth prayers is a derwish attribute

Nanashi
30-07-2006, 13:30
Ahem, you are telling us that you ran a 3 professions build?

Edit: got it, thanks for clarifying :-) That's the problem when you can't access GW in a preview event :\

Yeah I think the Earth is an ability for dervs which is where you may get confused. He was useing a Derv/Warrior ^_^

xFallenAngel
30-07-2006, 13:39
I agree that Mysticism needs to be nerfed at least a bit (less energy gain per rank could also solve the problem I think... 1 Energy per 4 ranks maybe then you only gain 3 energy per enchantment on you when they end while they cost 10 to cast which isn't really overpowered in my opinion).

Besides the whole idea about their enchantments having an effect when they end was that they wouldn't be stripped all the time; then the Dervishes would be useless. Well of the Profane is GREAT against them. ESPECIALLY if they don't stand in the Well, because then you can blast them from afar.

Please think before making silly replies... they're no harder to beat than other PBAoE Teams. They're only REAL power is their holy damage; but in both cases it's logical if that would be changed to fire (Balthazar=God of flames and fire ele's and Heart of Holy FLAME!!) so no more *irressistible* 200 damage every 9 seconds :)

@Diox: With Earth the guy(/girl) means Earth Prayers NOT Earth Magic ;)

I could see Heart of Holy Flame getting changed to Fire(Holy damage + burning is a bit much), but Balthazar's Rage should stay as it is.
Baltha is better known for Holy than for fire damage damage(Balthazar's Aura anyone? The Fire dude is Rodgort and he's not a god) and by changing one of the 2 you already prevent Holy Spam.

eowen
30-07-2006, 13:42
I mean great idea lets remove cop, that way monks can never remove dazzed or backfire from themselves and are uterly useless. Instead of asking for skills to be "nerfed" find a way to resist cop spike. I dunno maybe you can use natures renewal or something. or maybe the paragon has some skills that can help avoid or minimise this dmg.

WeaselChops
30-07-2006, 13:43
I think there's alsoa case for linking the number of enchants removed by CoP to the Divine Favour attribute.
i.e remove 1 at DF 0, and maybe peak at 5 with DF at 16.

It'd lessen the problem, but you might then get hordes of Mo/D's.

Archenine Paranoia
30-07-2006, 13:44
I could see Heart of Holy Flame getting changed to Fire(Holy damage + burning is a bit much), but Balthazar's Rage should stay as it is.
Baltha is better known for Holy than for fire damage damage(Balthazar's Aura anyone? The Fire dude is Rodgort and he's not a god) and by changing one of the 2 you already prevent Holy Spam.

Balthazar is the god of fire and war. Rodgort is, at best, an elementalist who made a few spells. Or, possibly, Trogdor backwards.

Paul Pluto
30-07-2006, 13:46
Omfg its trogdor the burninator !!!

Anet just went up in the humour stakes again, I feel stupid for never noticing this.

The nightfall description says something about some evil god being all evil to people, but it must mean they need to make a new god, but with no class I'd assume.

xFallenAngel
30-07-2006, 13:51
Balthazar is the god of fire and war. Rodgort is, at best, an elementalist who made a few spells. Or, possibly, Trogdor backwards.

I know who Rodgort is -_-
Name a few skills with Balthazar in their name that do fire damage please.
On the other hand, name skills with Balthazar in their name that do holy damage:
Balthazar's Aura
Balthazar's Rage
Balthazar's swift kick in the nuts

I think I see a pattern here.

Nanashi
30-07-2006, 13:57
I mean great idea lets remove cop, that way monks can never remove dazzed or backfire from themselves and are uterly useless. Instead of asking for skills to be "nerfed" find a way to resist cop spike. I dunno maybe you can use natures renewal or something. or maybe the paragon has some skills that can help avoid or minimise this dmg.

[Sarcasm on]
Who would do such a thing?! :shocked:
[Sarcasm off]

That seems to be the problem. People don't think in this game. Sins had the same problem during their PVP weekend and they all complained more than acted. I say bring a bottle of water and jump into the fire. xP

Akirai Annuvil
30-07-2006, 13:58
Lol alright alright they may leave balthazars rage (maybe a slight cooldown increase though 5 sec is awfully low), but you have to admit that balthazar is the God of FLAMES not Holy so changing it to fire is sorta logical :p (yes, I AM a sore loser and bad at admitting my mistakes ><)

EDIT: I agree with the upping of the cooldown to at least 10 seconds :) I'm going to play my Dervish now I've been away from her to long :(

xFallenAngel
30-07-2006, 14:02
XD
Yeah, I could see a recharge increase, although not of the magnitude some people were suggesting, like 25 seconds. That's just make them utterly useless.
8 or maybe 10 seconds would be acceptable.

Archenine Paranoia
30-07-2006, 14:08
I know who Rodgort is -_-
Name a few skills with Balthazar in their name that do fire damage please.
On the other hand, name skills with Balthazar in their name that do holy damage:
Balthazar's Aura
Balthazar's Rage
Balthazar's swift kick in the nuts

I think I see a pattern here.

Way off topic, but read your lore. Anyway, last I'll say about the subject. Back on topic now.

xFallenAngel
30-07-2006, 14:18
Way off topic, but read your lore. Anyway, last I'll say about the subject. Back on topic now.

I read all Lore ever made available for the game since I'm a fan of it's history. Balth being the god of War and Fire still doesn't mean there's a single Balth skill dealing fire damage and keeping in line with Balth's Aura, holy damage is his trademark ingame. Lore and Gameplay are two different animals =)

richo
30-07-2006, 14:20
avatar of grenth for enchant stripping = bb dervish

and doesnt iway own pressure/spike dervish builds due OoA?

Akirai Annuvil
30-07-2006, 14:36
I'd love to see a Warrior remove my Cloak of Thorn or Staggering Force... Weakened and Crippled I'll just run away. Or kill them using my overpowered holy spam moves... *sarcasm* so yes warriors please do not remove my enchants what a hellish thing to do >.> *end sarcasm*

OoA doesnt work well against them at least as far as I've seen (observer mode for GvG/HoH and personal experience for the rest, except TA. I suck at TA.) and enchant strippin does not work against most dervish builds (except possibly Melandru's Prophet who is reliant on enchants for increased damage).

And stop the lore discussion...

fizzie jiggs
30-07-2006, 14:42
i pretty much stay away from pvp over these weekends. dont get all freaked out about it, im sure it will be changed before the game is actually released.

sajtkocka
30-07-2006, 14:59
I personnaly met this build in team arenas (3-4 D/mo + something) and i was pretty annoyed by it. i think its pathetic. i already thought about it as the new iway when i created my first dervish, but i did Not ask my guildmates to create a dervishteam because i like combining/synchronizing multiple classes and not relying on some (yet) unballanced build.
for example in team arenas we used a paragon as a support character for the meelee characters and the monk. we managed to get 8 consecutive wins when got beaten by a dervishteam. i dont say they are über/invincible/overpowered but i think its not right that they need a complete anti-build to be countered -if played right-.

if the people who play this build find it fun, then be it, but i think it requires less skills than the touchrangers....

xFallenAngel
30-07-2006, 15:14
Less skill than pressing 1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2?
I hope you're kidding ; )

Bozo69PD
30-07-2006, 16:22
I agree that obviously since this is the PVP beta they just wanted to see what people would do with their current state of the game. The game doesn't actually come out til Nov. after all. While CoP does need a nerf because of this it needs to be done in a way that doesn't nerf boon prot anymore than it already has been. Someone mentioned requiring divine favor lvl 4 or less gets 50% chance of failure. That would work, still allowing monks to use it as an actual skill, I'd rather they didn't nerf the timer into a oh $@^! ability.

I think the fact that all those enchantment nukes are pretty much instant cast is a little crazy. Eles can't even do that and all they are really designed to do is nuke.

ShadowCeiling
30-07-2006, 17:03
Personally, I'll agree to nerfing mysticism a bit to give energy per 4 ranks, changing the cool down time to maybe 7 seconds for a few of the enchant bombs, and changing heart of the holy flames to fire damage rather than holy. I still don't see any reason to nerf CoP. The worst part of the Derv is they have 60 armor, and with runes, not that much health, all in all, they're squishies. the easiest way to kill a derv is daze, degen, and range. I still hate that there's no real counter to the Forms except running away or multi person degen or something, my only complaint would be the lack of something to take off the Form prematurely. Think about how you would get those forms in PvE... You'd literally have to kill gods.

Bozo69PD
30-07-2006, 17:24
It would be easy to kill those forms in pve. SS + backfire and empathy for all except dwayna. conditions daze and interupts for dwayna. you would have to spec towards killing them tho.

the cool thing about the forms is the 48 seconds of power. if you could strip it somehow it would be the most worthless elites in the game because it has a 2 minute cool down.

Buddah
30-07-2006, 17:34
Agreed, HA isn't fun anymore, nothing beats CoP spike.
Odd. I swore I rolled 4 of these teams in flawless victories in HA yesterday using modified packhunters.



Went in HA tonight and that's all there is, small variations of the exact same mass D/Mo fight.I saw just as much IWAY and VIM, and even more bloodspike at that same time.


4) CoP 50% fail with DF 4 or less isn't a bad idea for Dervish balancing, but i kinda hope it's not necessary if the rest is changed. But atm it does make Dervish all but pointless to hex or condition, they have so many enchants, they can just CoP everything.This is a just bad fix. Might look good now, but it really hurts other classes that occasionally makes use of CoP.


What on earth are you talking about, DMo teams were almost the only ones winning favor whole day yesterday, along with winning GvG battles. Havent you seen ANY? GvG battles end in 1:30-2:00 minutes!
I watch the Spearmen using CoP spike, eventually lose to Evil. And it was close at several times where Spearmen almost did get the Guild Lord. The emptiest I ever saw Evil's guild hall. Infact Spearmen almost won it not by the power of the Dervish, but by tactical moves that body blocked the bulk of Evil between them and their own guild hall allowing 2 Dervishes in Avatar form to race to the Evil hall.


Good counters for dervish.
--Inflicting Daze after CoP. No more enchantments means CoP is useless, Mystism is useless as well.
--Diversion. With all the skills being spammed you better be able to get one or two here and there on a single target
--Natures Renewal. Slow down their enchantments and make it easier to interupt RoF and the rest of their prized enchants. Yes they'll kill it, but you should be able to do some serious damage in that time.
--Migraine, Arcane Cundrum, Arcane Langour, Stolen Speed, Blackout, Choking Gas, Knockdowns any of these can slow down or stop the enchant spam in different ways.
--Kite them. How friggen obvious.

Countering Dervish groups.
--Spread out. Force them to go for one person at at time.
--Kill their monk and/or Orders. DP them out and force all the rez sigs to be used on these two if possible.
--Time your hexing/condition dealing to follow up CoP. Dervishes have a 10 second window in which you can really do them in. If done right, they'll never get an enchant up.
--If using Daze (Broadhead Arrow or Stunning Strike) condition stack to bury it. Three or four conditions deep will be tough for a Dazed Dervish to CoP off.
--Interupt Ranger or mesmer. Make use of Natures Renewal.

Bozo69PD
30-07-2006, 17:41
Odd. I swore I rolled 4 of these teams in flawless victories in HA yesterday using modified packhunters.

I saw just as much IWAY and VIM, and even more bloodspike at that same time.

This is a just bad fix. Might look good now, but it really hurts other classes that occasionally makes use of CoP.

I watch the Spearmen using CoP spike, eventually lose to Evil. And it was close at several times where Spearmen almost did get the Guild Lord. The emptiest I ever saw Evil's guild hall. Infact Spearmen almost won it not by the power of the Dervish, but by tactical moves that body blocked the bulk of Evil between them and their own guild hall allowing 2 Dervishes in Avatar form to race to the Evil hall.


Good counters for dervish.
--Inflicting Daze after CoP. No more enchantments means CoP is useless, Mystism is useless as well.
--Diversion. With all the skills being spammed you better be able to get one or two here and there on a single target
--Natures Renewal. Slow down their enchantments and make it easier to interupt RoF and the rest of their prized enchants. Yes they'll kill it, but you should be able to do some serious damage in that time.
--Migraine, Arcane Cundrum, Arcane Langour, Stolen Speed, Blackout, Choking Gas, Knockdowns any of these can slow down or stop the enchant spam in different ways.
--Kite them. How friggen obvious.

Countering Dervish groups.
--Spread out. Force them to go for one person at at time.
--Kill their monk and/or Orders. DP them out and force all the rez sigs to be used on these two if possible.
--Time your hexing/condition dealing to follow up CoP. Dervishes have a 10 second window in which you can really do them in. If done right, they'll never get an enchant up.
--If using Daze (Broadhead Arrow or Stunning Strike) condition stack to bury it. Three or four conditions deep will be tough for a Dazed Dervish to CoP off.
--Interupt Ranger or mesmer. Make use of Natures Renewal.

Those are some great tips, I'm just wondering are you implying to leave dervishes as is?

WingspanTT
30-07-2006, 17:41
If it is such a problem, just make CoP have a maximum # of enchants removed for the rank of DF.

Light Cleric
30-07-2006, 18:05
Well, I'm not ready to call it the of the game since this is a BETA EVENT. I didn't see anyone saying it was the Apocalypse in the Factions PvP weekend preview where there was no cap on identical spirits, and a group in HoH made about 100 Spirits of Pain using Pain and Anguished was Lingwah.

However, the D/Mo is rather overpowered. I doubt ANet meant for the Dervish to be able to do such massive AoE damage with basically no restrictions. But it was rather fun in RA with a team of 2 D/Mo CoP'ers, a D/Mo Prot, and a Cripshot Ranger. Got all the way to TA and beat this guild group of 4 Touch Rangers after they talked a bunch of smack to us. So yeah, any class that can beat the Touch Ranger is good in my book, but Nightfall is at least 3 months down the road, people. It's a beta, the more stuff that happens like this NOW, the less that will happen after Nightfall's release.

Bobross
30-07-2006, 18:08
so I understand why they use cop for hex/condition removal...but why not use that other dervish skill that strips all enchantments and does 120 dmg to all nearby foes...wouldn't that be a better spike?

Dark Green
30-07-2006, 18:16
Mystic Sandstorm costs 10 energy, and after spamming all those PBAOEs, it can be hard to get the energy for it. CoP only costs 5... maybe if it got increased to 10, with the same effects as it is now?

Slygar
30-07-2006, 19:12
CoP and healing hands both ought to have a longer recharge IMNSHO.

xFallenAngel
30-07-2006, 20:07
Something that would really help in my opinion:
Give all those damage enchants a noticeable animation.
The only one you can really see right now is Grenth's Fingers(shoots blue projectiles outwards in a circle shaped area), the others...just happen without any real visible effect.

Since most people are:

A) Far too lazy to actually read the info next to the damage numbers to find out what hit them

and

B) Probably won't know what the skill does anyway if they read the name, since the classes are so new

I think a visible effect would help those people a lot, it's something you can easily recognize after 2 or 3 times.

Arctus Redryn
30-07-2006, 20:14
CoP and healing hands both ought to have a longer recharge IMNSHO.

Straying from topic, but why do you have Healing Hands in there? :huh:

elavro
30-07-2006, 20:33
I think those dervish attack enchants shouldn't stack. only 1 attack enchant can be on at 1 time, that way cop looses alot of effect. Secondly, make the enchants only last 5-10 seconds,but they should end normal to gain energy, give them a higher energy cost, now they cost 10 energy, make that 15 and dervish is alot more balanced

cranialfluids
30-07-2006, 21:34
Dervish is overpowered, simple fact that with the enchantments it has, it has a high spike dmg and with the conditions more pressure than any other team has. I spent 6 hours last night playing against this. I tried nr/tranq, pressure balanced, and OoA barrage. nothing really works well. mostly because like many people have already pointed out, it's not the after effects of the enchantments, it's the unreasonable amount of high aoe dmg that the enchantments do in such a fast time.

Anyone who says the D/mo builds (Dervway, if you will, CoP spike is sort of a misnomer as the actual spike happens prior to CoP) aren't broken and unbalanced is fooling themself.

-CranialFluids (ign - Another Rose)

Bickety Bam
30-07-2006, 21:51
Dervish is overpowered, simple fact that with the enchantments it has, it has a high spike dmg and with the conditions more pressure than any other team has. I spent 6 hours last night playing against this. I tried nr/tranq, pressure balanced, and OoA barrage. nothing really works well. mostly because like many people have already pointed out, it's not the after effects of the enchantments, it's the unreasonable amount of high aoe dmg that the enchantments do in such a fast time.

Anyone who says the D/mo builds (Dervway, if you will, CoP spike is sort of a misnomer as the actual spike happens prior to CoP) aren't broken and unbalanced is fooling themself.

-CranialFluids (ign - Another Rose)

HAven't read the whole thread but what should stop this is Well of the Profane. But it doesn't. I consider this a bug. It should allow the damage to trigger.

If this type of attack is being introduced IMO the cost of WotP should be reduced from 25 to 15 to achieve some balance. Oh and obviously fix the skill.

don gudo
30-07-2006, 22:00
HAven't read the whole thread but what should stop this is Well of the Profane. But it doesn't. I consider this a bug. It should allow the damage to trigger.

If this type of attack is being introduced IMO the cost of WotP should be reduced from 25 to 15 to achieve some balance. Oh and obviously fix the skill.

The biggest problem I have with the build (and probably its most overpowered aspect) is that everything one thinks of as a counter...NR...well of the profane...maelstrom...most of them targetted in a small area of effect and easy to dodge, even if they are not, don't really "beat" the group, they basically just slow the inevitable. There is nothing, even tailored to beat dervway, that will consistently, if the dervs aren't noobs.

Oh yeah, and wotp can't be used until you have a dead party member, and as all their damage is aoe...well, I think you'll have 8 wotp's up as soon as you'll have 1, if you get my drift :cry:

Arctus Redryn
30-07-2006, 22:17
Would Ranger spike with Melandru's Arrows and Nature's Renewal work?

Also, I noticed Savage Shot inflicts +(some damage) if it interrupts a skill...is this new? I seem to remember Savage Shot inflicts (some damage) if it interrupts a skill, as with Distracting Shot.

Bravo
30-07-2006, 22:30
Reduce the range of the initial spike to 'adjacent'

That way people intending to use one or other of the skills on a scythe dervish can still inflict the damage on their target, but people intending to do just those skill will find it hitting air a lot more often.

Fying wizzard
30-07-2006, 23:20
What about changing the skill discription of CoP to:

Skill. Loose 1 enchantment for every attribute point in divine favour. For each one lost you gain... health, loose 1 hex and loose 1 condition.

If the discription is like this the change wont hurt this skill for boon prot monks since they always have plenty of pioints in divine. So the only nerf is that you have to be monk primairy so you can use CoP. The dervish can't use the "remove all enchantement (with cop )spike" annymore. Problem solved ^_^

CanthanPeasant
30-07-2006, 23:40
You do realize the Dervish has a small energy pool to begin with, much smaller than the Paragon. By doing everything you just described, the Dervish would use up all it's NRG in two enchantment casts, unable to regain enough in time for other spells.


I think those dervish attack enchants shouldn't stack. only 1 attack enchant can be on at 1 time, that way cop looses alot of effect. Secondly, make the enchants only last 5-10 seconds,but they should end normal to gain energy, give them a higher energy cost, now they cost 10 energy, make that 15 and dervish is alot more balanced

Erasculio
31-07-2006, 00:20
I think those dervish attack enchants shouldn't stack. only 1 attack enchant can be on at 1 time, that way cop looses alot of effect. Secondly, make the enchants only last 5-10 seconds,but they should end normal to gain energy, give them a higher energy cost, now they cost 10 energy, make that 15 and dervish is alot more balanced
I believe that's what's going to happen with the Dervishes - they'll be overnerfed to the point of being almost useless. Let's hope Arena Net knows how to deal with all the "OMG! NERF!" comments.

Erasculio

gwchi
31-07-2006, 00:21
Actually, before the CoP nerf to 10 sec it was quite a bit overpowered... but that's beside the point and let's not argue on this.

This build is badly overpowered clearly, but i don't really understand why people talk as if it's the effect on enchant ending that matters. It's not. The effect on enchant ending are VERY minor and hardly kill anything (some burning, cripple... compared to 300 nearby AOE damage from applying the enchants, 200 of which is Holy... it's NOTHING).

I posted the D/Mo build last night after owning in RA/TA most of the day with it in the 'Are Dervish Overpowered' thread. It was very close to unbeatable, and no one else i faced used it atm so we just roled over everything.

Went in HA tonight and that's all there is, small variations of the exact same mass D/Mo fight.

The problem with CoP ending enchant is absolutely not the effect of the enchants ending. It's that it heals you full (42-45 health PER ENCHANT, usually 4-5), and recharges all your energy (+7-8E per enchant...), and with the short recycle of the damage enchants, you can just cycle them over and over, CoP, restart. You never lack energy, you get rid of any hex or condition making any kind of shutdown nearly unthinkable, and it becomes a huge self-heal.

RoF is also what allows Dervish to stay alive, it gives them a huge health and energy boost when it ends so they can just keep cycling through their stuff alternating with a RoF in the middle.

Personally i think CoP is fine. But here's what i think would be good changes for Dervish atm to prevent the D/Mo from totally destroying HA and also all arenas (3 D/Mos with RoF-CoP and different utility + boon-prot is quite devastating in TA... if you lose, you just screwed bad... or face other D/Mos)

1) Health gained from an enchant ending reduced to 2 per level. It's stupid that CoPing your enchants gives you something like 200-250 health when you can recast them in seconds. Even 1 health per level would be acceptable imo, but if they want Dervish to be steady melee and not assassin-like, 2 might be required, hard to say without testing.

2) Mysticism only works on Dervish enchantments. It's WAY WAY WAY too good with RoF. It just is. You gain energy from using RoF, get healed more because of enchant ending, so you can just recast it every 2 sec with no cost at all (it's actually emanagement...). Otherwise it could be something like benefit from Mysticism is halved for other classes enchants. But it's just stupid as it is now, badly so. I don't think it needs a nerf related to Dervish Enchantments though, because with their energy cost, recharge, effects, etc. Mysticism as it is is kinda needed. But it does surclass even Expertise as a primary imo, and that's scary.

3) Holy damage needs to be GREATLY toned down, or changed type. Balthazar's Rage + Heart of Holy Fire are simply broken, and make warriors totally pointless. Warriors can do nothing but run if there's a Dervish spamming it around them. Frenzy is extremely funny too, 200 damage per enchant cast... too good. Seriously just compare to Smiting holy damage, it's not even close. Balthazar's Rage does the same as a full Symbol of Wrath in instant, in a bigger AOE, casting much faster, recharging much faster. Balanced? Right.

4) CoP 50% fail with DF 4 or less isn't a bad idea for Dervish balancing, but i kinda hope it's not necessary if the rest is changed. But atm it does make Dervish all but pointless to hex or condition, they have so many enchants, they can just CoP everything.

Pat, Anet should kick whoever is currently responsible for skill balancing and sit you in his seat.

Bobross
31-07-2006, 00:37
So when people were on forums a while ago, posting complaints about touch rangers, they were always met with common easy to use counters, and tactics...like "snare em and run away!"

On here, I see very specific skills suggested as ways of countering dervish builds, that in addition to not working all the time, also require considerable skill and coordination to use properly.

Anyone notice a difference? *gestures at the nerf bat*

Another observation I've made (correct me if I'm wrong) -Dervish skills work extremely well on a dervish primary: in addition, mysticism has a lot of synergy with most secondaries...on the other hand, I can't imagine effectively using wind or earth prayers on a dervish secondary...scythe mastery, maybe. It just seems wrong to me that a class should be so dependent on its primary attribute line for its skills to be good: they should stand alone, and the primary should enhance them. I've noticed very few X/Ds around, and I really can't see that changing with the skills and mysticism balanced the way they are now.

halfthought
31-07-2006, 02:06
I don't think it's the End of Guild Wars, in fact it's more like a rebirth, cause in essence, the metagame is radically changing. This change in Metagame its seriously needed. Yeah, D/Mo isn't that hard to get through, with enough degen and spikes you go done in less than a minute. I'm sure black out and other skill/spell stopping builds could stop this. Also, remember, they haven't given any skills to the core classes to even seriously counter a lot these new mechanics they put in. There isn't shout removal, or form removal (I seriously hope they had a form shutdown mechanism or something, make it an elite, I don't care.... cause three Derv's in god form seriously is too overpowering, something needs to be done about it.) So I'd wait a bit before coming to the conclusion that it's the end of it all... And there will be nerfing soon, I'm guaranteeing it.


wow, exactly my point, though I have to say, this ones more civil then the one in the .... "communtity discussion"

tarutaru
31-07-2006, 02:34
Pat, Anet should kick whoever is currently responsible for skill balancing and sit you in his seat.

/SIGNED

Anet, just give it up and hire Pat already. He knows alot more about this game then some of you, I can guarentee.

Kjentei
31-07-2006, 03:24
@ Patccmoi's suggestion. I hope ArenaNET at least do #4! #1 and #2 are also very good suggestions.

Buddah
31-07-2006, 03:53
Those are some great tips, I'm just wondering are you implying to leave dervishes as is?
Slight tweaks, not the crushing nerfs the would be real PvPer's are crying for. Since they're being taken out of their confort zone they really are flipping out and aren't so rational.

Fact is I spent a day slowly wittling these CoP spike teams down in HA for a second day. I even had a bunch unranked players behind me believing in themselves to the point that CoP spike was getting flawlessed frequently. Just like IWAY, kill the support. Then work on the dmg output.


/SIGNED

Anet, just give it up and hire Pat already. He knows alot more about this game then some of you, I can guarentee.
Actually this would be the end of GW as we know it.

ijack
31-07-2006, 04:07
No,because if you tweak CoP to have a DF requirement in order for it to work ( say >4 or even higher so it'll only work as intended ) that problem is gone.

It's far too ealry to tell - from a preview - how things will be in the end.They could even decide CoP won't work on dervish enchantments ,that would be the end to those builds ( but don't take away its usefulness with mantra of recall,pretty please :grin: )

I remember the exact same discussion was going on about assasins and ritualists and that worked out fine ,so let's just wait and see.

I think the mass enchant ending is intended as they have mystic sandstorm in there, cop just trade off 120 dmg against better healing and hex/condition removal. I think the cast time and recharge of these aoe spell need rebalanced, that's all, overall, I like how everything work with mystic sandstorm atm.

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 05:00
To be honest, I think people complaining there over powered is a bit of a "wah wah crying fit" because you can't counter them easierly.

And for those that think enchantments ending is no big deal I don't think so, take Grenth's Fingers for example, that ends your crippeled you can't walk away as fast from a mob of 4, and by the time you've got 2 feet away your dead.

Perfect balance, why? because Dervishs are a sort of cross between a warrior/elementalist, we're supposed to have a high dmg out put, so politely put go get a build to combat us, and stop moaning because you have to change your skill bar around for the weekend.

For example touch rangers, completely own us.

ijack
31-07-2006, 05:23
For example touch rangers, completely own us.

1v1 may be, 2v2 or above touch rangers already would get their dirty hands burnt in balthazar's rage.

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 05:29
1v1 may be, 2v2 or above touch rangers already would get their dirty hands burnt in balthazar's rage.

I don't quite understand what your saying here, I've seen 2 touch rangers in RA thankfully we was on there side, basically we just sat down and let them too it, the other 2 in the team where dervishs, there wasn't any point in leaving the gate, by the time we go near the enermy they where dead already.

If you want to whine about balance, whine about touch rangers.

ShadowCeiling
31-07-2006, 05:52
Making Mysticism work only for Derv enchants is like saying expertise should only work on ranger skills or strength should only work on warriors. And that's a NO. It destroys the versatility of the game. I do agree that some of the damage being holy is a bit tough, and needs to be toned down or switched to fire so that it's not armor ignoring... though in reality, a lot of these cries for nerf would seriously destroy the class integerity, making it unplayable in either PvP or PvE. This new class is really changing out how the game plays, cause I bet you're used to people clumping up or being clumped up, now you know that clumping ain't such a grand idea. At this point, it seems that placement is now really important to the fight, as it didn't really matter as much before. Like I said earlier, it's a rebirth of the metagame, and you should change your paradigm.

MaximumSquid
31-07-2006, 05:54
Well something has to give.

THe weekend is pretty well over, but near the end I was making dervish builds for Ra that didn't have res sigs.

They didn't have res sigs because I was just soloing the entire other team regularly. . .

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9450/ggdervishne1.jpg

After litterally dragging my team to round 17 I died to a team that litereally spammed gale on me more than a dozen times in a row while their entire team was beating on me.

In a game based on balances and counters it's really hitting rock bottom. :cry:

Sekia
31-07-2006, 05:56
Yeah..I hope Anet does all this better when Nightfall actually comes out, Which im sure they will there pretty good at it even if complainers say they make the skills completely useless. Its normally for the good of the whole game

don gudo
31-07-2006, 06:04
I don't quite understand what your saying here, I've seen 2 touch rangers in RA thankfully we was on there side, basically we just sat down and let them too it, the other 2 in the team where dervishs, there wasn't any point in leaving the gate, by the time we go near the enermy they where dead already.

If you want to whine about balance, whine about touch rangers.

I'm not sure if I just need to reference you to the screen shot maximum posted above, or if I should state this fact (and I mean this more of a point of revelation for readers than for anything mocking of you):

When was the last time you saw nearly every single group in heroes' ascent be a touchway (7 touchers, or 6, or whatever)? Maybe that's because they're beatable. Reasonably, easily, beatable. Now, when 4/5 HoH battles are 3 of the same build (derv spike!), then I think it's clear we have a problem...touchers are not what's in need of nerfing in this picture. :huh:

cranialfluids
31-07-2006, 07:05
For anyone who said Dervish doesn't need a nerf, that the hardcore PvPers are just complaining about being taken out of our comfort zone, please know that as soon as one build demands you design your own around defeating that one particular build, then that build has become a significant problem. what happens then, is we have a rock, paper, scissors contest in PvP.

rock: Dervway
paper: Dervway counter
scissors: counter to Dervway's counter

Rock beats Scissors, Scissors beats Paper, Paper beats Rock. this results from an unbalanced issue where one element defines the metagame. The shining point of the GW PvP has always been the variety of builds you can run.

So please, before you start accusing PvPers of being "stuck in a rut" please review the build progressions of pre-Factions PvP builds, and post-Factions PvP builds. There have been quita a bit of changes. We're not stuck in a rut, by any means. Dervish needs a nerf, if you don't think so it's clear you don't understand game balance.

-CranialFluids (ign - Another Rose)

Ifer
31-07-2006, 07:11
My guess is that they deliberately overpowered it to convince people to buy it, and then nerf it.

DarkZeal
31-07-2006, 07:15
My guess is they never did any testing and just asked people with no game design experiance and have never played Guildwars to make skills based on enchantments ending. Then shoved this crap out for us to test it for them.

JSummers
31-07-2006, 07:18
Reduce the range of the initial spike to 'adjacent'

That way people intending to use one or other of the skills on a scythe dervish can still inflict the damage on their target, but people intending to do just those skill will find it hitting air a lot more often.

I think this is a fair nerf. Consider the comparable class, earth ele for PB AoE (crystals, shockwave,etc) are all adjacent, and also more recharge. That should be a benchmark for the new stats for these skills.

ijack
31-07-2006, 07:26
I don't quite understand what your saying here, I've seen 2 touch rangers in RA thankfully we was on there side, basically we just sat down and let them too it, the other 2 in the team where dervishs, there wasn't any point in leaving the gate, by the time we go near the enermy they where dead already.

If you want to whine about balance, whine about touch rangers.

The fact is 1 devish can dish out the following damage in 5 seconds:

Mystic Sandstorm (120) + Mystic Cloak (64) + Bleeding from aura of thorn-> Balthazar's rage (88) -> Staggering Force (88) -> Dust Cloak (88)

448 damage

if you are doing 1 toucher v 1 Devish, then you would be in equal footing with him, if 2 devish take advantage of their aoe, toucher have no chance

I agree toucher is simpler to use, but it doesn't make them better

ijack
31-07-2006, 07:31
My guess is they never did any testing and just asked people with no game design experiance and have never played Guildwars to make skills based on enchantments ending. Then shoved this crap out for us to test it for them.

I doubt that, they have more data / experience / game mechanic information then any of us.

Having a overpowered devish in the preview have the following advantage to anet:

1) More people try out devish at this period of time and give ANET more information to work on from this point on

2) Hype things up so ppl think Devish is closer to god then their god form, so people buy nightfall

suikoden
31-07-2006, 07:47
My guess is they never did any testing and just asked people with no game design experiance and have never played Guildwars to make skills based on enchantments ending. Then shoved this crap out for us to test it for them.

Well this was sopposed to be a beta test pvp weekend , but by the looks of it they didnt even alpha test it :grin:

So it's really an alpha test , a really early build of whats to come.

Ravensclaw
31-07-2006, 07:57
Well they still have 4-5 months till it comes out so hopefully they will sort this out.

daftman
31-07-2006, 08:16
Hmm has anyone every thought about the skill
Defile enchantment or Dessecrate Enchantment?
AOE 49 Damage + 17 Damager per enchantment without removing the enchantment.
For a Dervish with 3 enchantments - that's 100 shadow damage AOE.
Two Necro with echo can deal out 400 damage to the whole group of Dervish Bomber before they even get close.
Probably after that you might get Shatter Enchantment from a Mesmer to remove and deal additional damage.
All these are prophesies skills.

If you have both prophesies and faction that's about 900 damage with echo, defile enchantment + desecrate enchantment for 2 necro.

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 08:37
I'm not sure if I just need to reference you to the screen shot maximum posted above, or if I should state this fact (and I mean this more of a point of revelation for readers than for anything mocking of you):

When was the last time you saw nearly every single group in heroes' ascent be a touchway (7 touchers, or 6, or whatever)? Maybe that's because they're beatable. Reasonably, easily, beatable. Now, when 4/5 HoH battles are 3 of the same build (derv spike!), then I think it's clear we have a problem...touchers are not what's in need of nerfing in this picture. :huh:

Maybe we have different preseptions, if we'd played the same match ups, with the same tactics, movement in each, you might have the same opinuion as me, but in that regards, the matchs I've played in the dervishs where taken care off quite well, degen, condisions, all the normal stuff you use on a daily basis where working just fine to take us out, the only time a dervish d/mo actually did any real dmg and won, is when tactically we grouped together attacked the same target together, and used the same skills relitively at the same time, and even then 3 x d/mo with those tactics I've seen take 4 wins in a row, and be taken out by the simple matter of the other team got lucky and got a good monk on there side, even with all 3 of us ganking the monk, one monk I bumped into brought along SoJ that was a suprise I wasn't expecting.

So I don't see they need much of a nerf, however the skill called "Players Brains" might need a bit of a buff!.

And as for the screenshot above, he got lucky and bumped in to leavers/weak teams, all the way to 17 I'd bet, hell that's how I got my 1st glad point this weekend, by most of the groups from 0-10 being either leaver, weak, or no tactical brains at all, however once TA came around, we was swiftly dispatched after the 3rd match.

And I've met those so called indistructable dervishs many times, of course now I can't drag you into 1v1 because they've just been taken out the game, but either they wasn't using them right, or lag who can say, but while they took a little longer than normal it didn't take much for them to drop.

Again as I said before, we both have different matchs that we've played so our experances will be different.

To play the devils advocate, I think they need a buff, like I don't know HoHF doing 1000dmg per second, and 6 years of flame at ending. :) j/k

ijack
31-07-2006, 08:53
Maybe we have different preseptions, if we'd played the same match ups, with the same tactics, movement in each, you might have the same opinuion as me, but in that regards, the matchs I've played in the dervishs where taken care off quite well, degen, condisions, all the normal stuff you use on a daily basis where working just fine to take us out, the only time a dervish d/mo actually did any real dmg and won, is when tactically we grouped together attacked the same target together, and used the same skills relitively at the same time, and even then 3 x d/mo with those tactics I've seen take 4 wins in a row, and be taken out by the simple matter of the other team got lucky and got a good monk on there side, even with all 3 of us ganking the monk, one monk I bumped into brought along SoJ that was a suprise I wasn't expecting.

So I don't see they need much of a nerf, however the skill called "Players Brains" might need a bit of a buff!.

And as for the screenshot above, he got lucky and bumped in to leavers/weak teams, all the way to 17 I'd bet, hell that's how I got my 1st glad point this weekend, by most of the groups from 0-10 being either leaver, weak, or no tactical brains at all, however once TA came around, we was swiftly dispatched after the 3rd match.

And I've met those so called indistructable dervishs many times, of course now I can't drag you into 1v1 because they've just been taken out the game, but either they wasn't using them right, or lag who can say, but while they took a little longer than normal it didn't take much for them to drop.

Again as I said before, we both have different matchs that we've played so our experances will be different.

To play the devils advocate, I think they need a buff, like I don't know HoHF doing 1000dmg per second, and 6 years of flame at ending. :) j/k

Since when random and TA are considered to be a real success to any experienced player?

6 toucher with their single target touch dmg would never be in par with 6 AOE self-healing spammer in HA.

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 09:01
Since when random and TA are considered to be a real success to any experienced player?

6 toucher with their single target touch dmg would never be in par with 6 AOE self-healing spammer in HA.

What?, was that some kind of knee jerk reply or what?

Okay, well umm I GvG for fun, I did RA/TA (only because I got there from RA) because of the medalions, because it both unlocked skills from faction gained by the fight, and gave me some gold to store away, if they keep those medalions in I might invest more time in RA/TA to UAX myself, other wise I'll keep away from those 2 places as I've done in the past, I don't as general rule HA because I hate the place, I hate the people in there, 99% of the time there all a pack of elitest skum bags that if they where to GvG would get completely roasted, that's not to say that all people in there are like that, but from my time in there that's been my only experance of the place, when I go, I go with my guild.

cranialfluids
31-07-2006, 09:17
Hmm has anyone every thought about the skill
Defile enchantment or Dessecrate Enchantment?
AOE 49 Damage + 17 Damager per enchantment without removing the enchantment.
For a Dervish with 3 enchantments - that's 100 shadow damage AOE.
Two Necro with echo can deal out 400 damage to the whole group of Dervish Bomber before they even get close.
Probably after that you might get Shatter Enchantment from a Mesmer to remove and deal additional damage.
All these are prophesies skills.

If you have both prophesies and faction that's about 900 damage with echo, defile enchantment + desecrate enchantment for 2 necro.

You do realize that a good portion of the problem with the dervish is Mysticism? Whenever an enchantment ends of them they are being healed, so the amount of dmg you're dealing when you strip these enchants is dramatically reduced, not to mention CoP functions as a self-infuse health.

There's no arguing with the fact that the dervish is broken. It has the most efficient nrg management in the game, better self heal/condition removal/hex removal than a monk, has an insanely high dps, and tanks dmg better than a warrior. good game, anet.

oh, and btw, even the members of EvIL are high ranked HA players. want a screen shot to prove it? or do you just want to take my word on it? HA players are not "talentless" by any stretch of the imagination.

Nanashi
31-07-2006, 09:27
Well they still have 4-5 months till it comes out so hopefully they will sort this out.

That's why the whole PVP weekend idea came to mind. They were testing the versatility during PVP, they'll do the same for PVE when we get the FPE. There's no doubt they'll be fiddled here and there, both the dervs and the Paragons, not a single beta has stayed the same after the release. Anywho, there'll be some form of alteration you can bet on that.


There's no arguing with the fact that the dervish is broken. It has the most efficient nrg management in the game, better self heal/condition removal/hex removal than a monk, has an insanely high dps, and tanks dmg better than a warrior. good game, anet.

Ohhh quit acting so ignorant jeesos. They're not broken, they're just new. People just managed to group a bunch of skills together to make them more versatile than the classes you mentioned. The fact is, because they're new, nobody knows how to stop them because well it's bluntly obvious... we've never encountered them before.

So they're going to be fiddled with and nerfed, there's no doubt about it. How that's going to happen, who knows. I just hope the other classes don't get screwed over in the proccess.

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 09:31
oh, and btw, even the members of EvIL are high ranked HA players. want a screen shot to prove it? or do you just want to take my word on it? HA players are not "talentless" by any stretch of the imagination.

If I recall from words I've heard from the wind, they wasn't even ranked when the first won the GWWC, so it shows where there priorities are, not in some skum bag elitist wanna be place, I'd say they went/go for the little emote, and for some free faction.

Nanashi
31-07-2006, 09:37
Just remember that the stuff we see now are not final. We should still have another beta test via PVE and that inwhich we will see a slight change in the skills we all played with during the recent event.

ShadowCeiling
31-07-2006, 09:40
I just thought of an rather good counter to the percieved overpowered Dervish. It relies on that fact that people have not considered the truth about the Dervish, yes it's a melee class, and yes it's a caster class, echant heavy. So naturally, people either try to beat it out in melee; which is difficult cause the weapon attacks like three people and the caster side backs up the melee very very well. Yet they have the structure of caster, caster armor, and spell based (Enchants). So people treat them like monks and try to remove enchants... remember half the class is about enchant management and how they would like to lose their enchants in lieu of better effects. So, here is the solution, don't treat them like monks or warriors (which first rely on enchants for boost or are all about melee), treat them like necromancers and elementalists(few enchants, and lots of spell spamming)... Thus two things can easily destroy a Dervishl; one, anti-cast tactics. Don't let them cast thier enchants, and mesmers do that quite well, and as do rangers and thier interrupts and daze, and even Assassins; and now especially the paragon. The second thing is to remember to move and kite, also attack at range. Seriously, moving away from a dervish stops a lot of the AoE and scythe damage... Scythes are slow, you can run. Just like you can run from fire AoE's and interrupting heavy hexes. Attacking from range prevents a lot of those enchants from ever hitting you and that scythe. I'm sure lots people tried out things that had none of these and got tromped on. The only other thing that would seem to work, cause it seems to work on everyone universally is Degen and life steal, but I would think that it would have to be incorporated with the other points. It's a new game now, so find a new paradigm.

Lady Althea
31-07-2006, 09:40
Quote:
Originally Posted by daftman
Hmm has anyone every thought about the skill
Defile enchantment or Dessecrate Enchantment?
AOE 49 Damage + 17 Damager per enchantment without removing the enchantment.
For a Dervish with 3 enchantments - that's 100 shadow damage AOE.
Two Necro with echo can deal out 400 damage to the whole group of Dervish Bomber before they even get close.
Probably after that you might get Shatter Enchantment from a Mesmer to remove and deal additional damage.
All these are prophesies skills.

If you have both prophesies and faction that's about 900 damage with echo, defile enchantment + desecrate enchantment for 2 necro. End Quote

You do realize that a good portion of the problem with the dervish is Mysticism? Whenever an enchantment ends of them they are being healed, so the amount of dmg you're dealing when you strip these enchants is dramatically reduced, not to mention CoP functions as a self-infuse health.

There's no arguing with the fact that the dervish is broken. It has the most efficient nrg management in the game, better self heal/condition removal/hex removal than a monk, has an insanely high dps, and tanks dmg better than a warrior. good game, anet.

oh, and btw, even the members of EvIL are high ranked HA players. want a screen shot to prove it? or do you just want to take my word on it? HA players are not "talentless" by any stretch of the imagination.


You do realize that defile/desecrate enchantments do not remove the enchantments?

P.S. hope i did the quote thing right, i've never done it before

Ayarie
31-07-2006, 09:42
Its no More overpowered than Touch Rangers - Or any other Spike build - or how when the 55 monk first took its way around.

I played dervish the entire weekend i won some and i lost some - all depended on the quality of team you were facing.

People would rather cry first and think counters later - if they can beat something with their current build then it needs nerfing.

Naru Soulfire

Nanashi
31-07-2006, 09:48
Its no More overpowered than Touch Rangers - Or any other Spike build - or how when the 55 monk first took its way around.

I played dervish the entire weekend i won some and i lost some - all depended on the quality of team you were facing.

People would rather cry first and think counters later - if they can beat something with their current build then it needs nerfing.

Naru Soulfire

That's how this topic was created. Buncha people were crying instead of takeing action. There's no doubt they're going to be nerfed, the devs had no idea of their strength thus came up with the PVP weekend; giving us all the chance to test.

MikesSmikes
31-07-2006, 09:50
-> poision bleed to annoy
-> derv uses cop
-> daze poision bleed cripple
-> derv gets every spell interrupted
-> no more cop, no more enchants, no more anything
-> interrupt signets if needed
-> dead derv

same as you d kill a monk, only it usually goes way faster. monks are better at staying alive. :rolleyes:

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 09:58
You do realize that defile/desecrate enchantments do not remove the enchantments?

P.S. hope i did the quote thing right, i've never done it before

I'd call that a bug.


I just thought of an rather good counter to the percieved overpowered Dervish. It relies on that fact that people have not considered the truth about the Dervish, yes it's a melee class, and yes it's a caster class, echant heavy. So naturally, people either try to beat it out in melee; which is difficult cause the weapon attacks like three people and the caster side backs up the melee very very well. Yet they have the structure of caster, caster armor, and spell based (Enchants). So people treat them like monks and try to remove enchants... remember half the class is about enchant management and how they would like to lose their enchants in lieu of better effects. So, here is the solution, don't treat them like monks or warriors (which first rely on enchants for boost or are all about melee), treat them like necromancers and elementalists(few enchants, and lots of spell spamming)... Thus two things can easily destroy a Dervishl; one, anti-cast tactics. Don't let them cast thier enchants, and mesmers do that quite well, and as do rangers and thier interrupts and daze, and even Assassins; and now especially the paragon. The second thing is to remember to move and kite, also attack at range. Seriously, moving away from a dervish stops a lot of the AoE and scythe damage... Scythes are slow, you can run. Just like you can run from fire AoE's and interrupting heavy hexes. Attacking from range prevents a lot of those enchants from ever hitting you and that scythe. I'm sure lots people tried out things that had none of these and got tromped on. The only other thing that would seem to work, cause it seems to work on everyone universally is Degen and life steal, but I would think that it would have to be incorporated with the other points. It's a new game now, so find a new paradigm.

That's pretty much what I think too, dervish bombs work *only* and exclusively when either the entire team, or a small group or a person, are stationary, if you was too much of a dumb *** not to move out of the way, well I can't help you, and no matter the amount of crying and moaning about it is going to change that.

I can't acount the number of times, smart people just walked away from me and made me chase them down, and change the way I played to have to stack up Grenth's Fingers before going near them to crippel them so I could get a little more time to excute the rest of my dmg dealing.

Nanashi
31-07-2006, 10:03
Chokeing Gas and Broad Head arrow... boom ^_^

Lady Althea
31-07-2006, 10:15
You do realize that defile/desecrate enchantments do not remove the enchantments?

P.S. hope i did the quote thing right, i've never done it before


I'd call that a bug.

Desecrate Enchantments: Target foe and all nearby foes take 6...49 shadow damage and 4...17 shadow damage for each enchantment on them.

how is that a bug? Doesn't really matter now, seeing as the event is ended and they're off to the nerf factory, but I'd still like to know where to bug is hehe.

/edit: Eeek, messed up the quotes, o well, the first one is me, the second one is a dude that quoted me, there all better.

eximiis
31-07-2006, 13:20
the thing is that a lot of player that were trying out the Dervish this weekend did notice that they were playing with enchantement A.K.A. spell.

i runned a Echo/backfire this weekend and a lot of those dervish got pwnd without even knowing what hit them

xFallenAngel
31-07-2006, 13:29
People always forget that each new "flavor" introduced always tends to steamroll everyone in Arenas and Hall/HA.
Like Touchers reigned supreme in Arenas/HA/GVG for days on end when they inserted Vamp Bite, until people got wise and countered.
Same with everything else really, everyone knows the various builds that appeared over time, everyone cried at first and now nobody cares anymore because they know how to beat it.

There's a very distinct reason why Dervishs(and Paragons too to a certain extent, although most people haven't yet learned how to play them properly) have distinct advantages right now:

Almost no one really knows what their skills do.
A good player doesn't only know the skills on his bar, a good player knows the skills his enemies use too. A good player instantly knows how to react when hit with Backfire/SS/Ineptitude or a target uses Shield of Judgement/Vengeful was X/etc.
A broad knowledge of all the skills in the game makes the difference between dying in 6 seconds to an anti melee Mesmer, or living to tell the tale.

Dervishs and Paragons are new, almost no one has really gotten used to their skills yet. Those that have, well, they already make quick work on them in TA/HA/GVG, thank you.
That's a perfectly normal byproduct of something new appearing.
When Spirit Spam Ritualists first appeared people also fell in droves until someone got the idea to maybe take out the Preservation-Recuperation-Union-Shelter clump of spirits first.

Above everything else, people's first instinct when they meet something they can't beat on the first try, is not to try again, but to scream for nerfs.
*Sarcasm on* After all, this is a static game and change and adaption should not be required of them, right? *Sarcasm off*

Anyway, you want a guide in a nutshell how to treat D/Mo`s using enchant spam + CoP? Guess what, exactly like that other class that uses enchant spam and CoP...What was it called again?
Oh right, Boon Prot Monks, there are only a few million or so running around, so I tend to forget :P
Now what's the best way to kill a Boon Prot again?
Make him use CoP, then daze - dead monk.
Choking gas also works wonders.
Deep Freeze -> Maelstrom(or even Maelstrom -> Deep Freeze) easily gives you enough time to kill one if you time it right, if they CoP Deep Freeze, just use a second snare, you aren't a Water ele just for show right?
Knockdowns and interrupts in any shape and form, chances are you'll hit something important, because theses guys are CONSTANTLY casting all the time.
Bring a Mesmer. OMG a Mesmer? Yeah.
Ever seen a single Mesmer with Arcane Echo/Diversion/Cry of Frustration and Power Block disable an entire team of 4 D/Mo's?
Well I have =)

All of that doesn't mean that I think the Dervish will emerge unchanged in the final version(or the PvE event for that matter), I just think Anet will have enough common sense not to listen to the knee-jerk cries of nerfage.
Some minor nerfs that have already been mentioned earlier that I support would be:

1. Change Heart of Holy Flames initial damage to fire.
Having it do instant holy + turn your damage to holy for 20 secs + burn on end is a bit much...this change alone goes a long way to alleviate holy spam.
2. Raise the recharge time on the instant damage enchants by 3 seconds each.
3. Raise the recharge on Dwayna's Touch from 2 to 5 seconds to bring it in line with Healing Touch. I see no reason for a Dervish to have a touch heal that flat out beats Healing Touch.

Wuzzman
31-07-2006, 13:39
from my understanding of the spike if anet feels it is a idiotic problem......cop will be nerfed. The basic dev design and the damage that they do will not be changed. Cop will probably be nerfed like this..."If divine favor isn't 4 50% chance of failure". Nothing that won't effect boon/ports but would give some 'counter' pauses for necro's and mesmers.

ShinyOne
31-07-2006, 13:43
hmm, i come in late at the discussion, so i'm gonna reply to a bunch of people now. i'm not a leet player, but i did play the demon build, and i can see several things here:

- as people already said, cop is not the problem. end-of-enchantment effects are not overpowered, except possibly (possibly!) mysticism. no megadamage at enchantment end, and conditions by themselves never killed anyone yet.

- regarding mysticism, yes, it is very efficient energy management, but i think it is needed for the dervish class concept. the concept itself i believe is quite okay, too.

- i think that the little bit of brokenness that there is, lies in the AoE damage enchantments. they cost too little, and/or they do too much damage, and/or they have too wide area of effect. if the damage is kept the same, i would reduce the area, increase the cost, reduce the cast time and increase aftercast. if the damage is reduced, the skills might be fine as they are. mysticism is needed to keep the class viable as a melee profession and to power other enchantments; but the problem comes from allowing it to fuel these specific ones indefinitely. do you have a problem with other enchantments? the alternative is as you guys seem to suggest - a complete profession overhaul - and i do love the concept.

- plenty of counterbuilds. i did play the build (mostly in TA), and pack hunters (if they knew what they were doing) were a pretty sure sign we're going to lose. then we met a very strange 4xMo/A build that teleported around, healing each other, then converged in sync to spike someone out of thin air right into oblivion. bringing a prot ritualist hurts, as does distracting the RoF. and don't even get me started on spirit bond.

- in the end, metagame is changing, but metagame is always changing. i'm much more worried when it's not changing.

- of course this weekend saw some imbalances, and i do agree with hardcore pvp people that beta weekends should not count for guild ranking. but i'm definitely not in agreement with the scale of changes that are being thrown around here.


Those are some great tips, I'm just wondering are you implying to leave dervishes as is?

don't know about him, but i know the changes i'm advocating are rather minor, and restricted to the offending enchantments (grenth's fingers, heart of the holy flame, staggering force and balthazar's rage) as described above, either to prevent them to fuel themselves indefinitely (by raising cost), or to restrict their effect to spiking 1 or at most 2 people (by reducing the area, balanced by increased speed). we all know spiking, and we're comfortable with that idea, no? :)


There is nothing, even tailored to beat dervway, that will consistently, if the dervs aren't noobs.

not true, as described above, and while i'm not leet pvp, i'm not noob, either. scattering and mobility works, kiting works, mesmering works (not disenchants, obviously, nor energy denial, but skill denial), mass protecting works...


So, here is the solution, don't treat them like monks or warriors (which first rely on enchants for boost or are all about melee), treat them like necromancers and elementalists(few enchants, and lots of spell spamming)...(...) It's a new game now, so find a new paradigm.

:listen: word to the wise, man.


You do realize that defile/desecrate enchantments do not remove the enchantments?

yes, but how is that a big problem? remember that dervish motto: "ench on - good; ench off - still good". but exploiting the dervish's own enchantments to damage him, that's what he was talking about.

Wuzzman
31-07-2006, 14:40
Funny that my N/mo can beat any fotnm build in exstinece...wow...I love my baby.

Bobross
31-07-2006, 14:41
I'm calling for nerfs after having played a Dervish for the entire weekend, it was entirely too easy to kill several members of a team, or just stay alive for 20 minutes with a whole team pounding on me, or combinations of the two. My very first game, I had no idea what any of the skills did, and was just pressing random buttons on the pre-made, and I still wrecked everything. As I found more and more broken combos, staying alive indefinitely,while doing decent damage became easy. The strongest counter, I found was another Dervish, who couldn't kill me because we both had ridiculous self healing ability...but I (and 2 teammates) couldn't kill him either, because of his ridiculous self healing ability. Hence long stalemate. What frustrated me, was that there were several long stalemates throughout the weekend...including several matches vs mesmers using backfire (which I could either cast through and still outheal, or just use CoP to remove...neither really bothered me) Diversion (which I could use that healing signet with the instant recharge to remove, without any negative side effect).

MaximumSquid
31-07-2006, 14:51
Hmm has anyone every thought about the skill
Defile enchantment or Dessecrate Enchantment?
AOE 49 Damage + 17 Damager per enchantment Pointless when they get 48 hp back when the enchantments end. . .

The dervish I was running. . .That 48 hp was 89 or more at times.


poision bleed to annoy
-> derv uses cop
-> daze poision bleed cripple
-> derv gets every spell interrupted. . . Great against people still running balthazar as their avatar. Fingers of Grenth is an AoE cripple though so I never stopped using Melandru.


Chokeing Gas and Broad Head arrow... boom ^_^ The dervsh skills are still faster than you shooting. With timing I was just casting though it.

Casting through Maelstrom was the same way. You could time it and never be effected.

Hell I was casting though Backfire at times because my health was actually going up because of it!

I've very serious when I say "Stop looking for counters against Dervish" because there is seriously nothing worthy you can run when every base is covered.

Akirai Annuvil
31-07-2006, 14:58
Quote from Bobross:
What frustrated me, was that there were several long stalemates throughout the weekend...including several matches vs mesmers using backfire (which I could either cast through and still outheal, or just use CoP to remove...neither really bothered me) Diversion (which I could use that healing signet with the instant recharge to remove, without any negative side effect).

If Diversion didn't work on your signet I THINK it's a bug; the hex effects applies to the next skill used even before that skill's effect is taken into account; so it should've been blocked, I think :/ .

Also it's not that strange that they're hard to kill; a Warrior is that too and they're supposed to melee as well as them. Also all healing and damage abd enchantment spells as has been said previously can be stopped by dazed (my ranger had a field day using throw dirt/dust trap and concushion shot on Dervs :D and then I just covered them with poison arrow and On Fire which anthem of flame enabled me to do *thanks you Paragons out there!! ;)* Yay Conditions for the world!) and covering them with other conditions means that CoP is useless. Avatar of Melandru could solve their problem of course but in that case I just ran :/ Nothing like a good Storm Chaser XD And those skills are also useful against other builds (monks, warriors, assassins and elementalists for examples. Against pack hunters too as they normally removed only the first blind that Dust Trap gave them blinding them for another couple of seconds :) which was of course very nice. Oh and against most non-trapper non-toucher rangers) but *sarcasm on* I see the point of all those million posts who say that Dervishes are impossible to defeat unless you've got builds tailored against them which are of course useless in all other situations *sarcasm off* -.-

Alrighty, that was a long enough post and I'm off to deleting my Dervish *snik snik goodbye Olga De Barbaar*

PS Like i said before at least one of the holy PB AOE skills needs to be changed to fire

@MaximunSquid: Desecrate Enchantment and the other one do NOT, I repeat do NOT, remove enchantments so the DErvish does NOT, I repeat does NOT get healed by them. Take 5 seconds to look them up if you don't know them and else don't reply to them...

Buddah
31-07-2006, 15:59
Since when random and TA are considered to be a real success to any experienced player?

Way some of them have went off in this thread they might be better off heading back there to feed their frail egos.

-> poision bleed to annoy
-> derv uses cop
-> daze poision bleed cripple
-> derv gets every spell interrupted
-> no more cop, no more enchants, no more anything
-> interrupt signets if needed
-> dead derv

same as you d kill a monk, only it usually goes way faster. monks are better at staying alive. :rolleyes:People are finally getting the point. It's about timing to kill a Dervish.



Great against people still running balthazar as their avatar. Fingers of Grenth is an AoE cripple though so I never stopped using Melandru.
And what good did it do when the team just avoided you until your precious avatar form came to an end. Waiting for the avatar form to end is part of what is needed to deal with some Dervishes.

Nekretaal
31-07-2006, 17:12
Well, The matches I've observed so far (all at halls) the D/Mos gets owned.

It seems like there is very little they can do when against an experienced FoC spike team.


Thats not true: their contemplation of purity is like a self infuse. As soon as the spike comes, they hit contemplation of purity, and get completely healed. Dervishes are almost spike-prooof with contemplation of purity.

Not to mention that they all carry reversal of fortune, which works very well against spikes using desecrate enchantments, and contemplation of purity also takes care of the hexes so that the lifesteal from feast of corruption doesnt trigger.

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 17:26
Thats not true: their contemplation of purity is like a self infuse. As soon as the spike comes, they hit contemplation of purity, and get completely healed. Dervishes are almost spike-prooof with contemplation of purity.

Not to mention that they all carry reversal of fortune, which works very well against spikes using desecrate enchantments, and contemplation of purity also takes care of the hexes so that the lifesteal from feast of corruption doesnt trigger.

Did anyone stop to consider this, maybe ANet is shaking up the meta game, because they see it getting stale, with us continually using b-spike, r-spike, smite, iway & vim (did I miss any?) did they develop the Paragon & Dervish to deal out dmg & self heal themself so that newer player can combat these morons that run the same crap day in day out.

maybe?

falling demon
31-07-2006, 17:33
Viable (or not so viable) Nerf: (50% chance to fail with Divine Favor 4 or less)

i salute you.

Monk Primary FTW

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 17:37
won't work, mantra of recall.. game over.

Nekretaal
31-07-2006, 19:08
a couple of points:

(1) Contemplation of purity was broken even when the major users of the skill were boon prots. Especially when combined with enchantment skills that have low recharge and low casting. Divine Boon comes to mind but there are others. Combining the skill with Mantra of Recall eliminates the Monk's only weakness, that of being inable to generate energy from its primary.

And, even though it is a divine favor skill, that does not stop it from being abused by other secondaries when the need arises. In fact, Contemplation of purity was a very key skill that PvP Adam (a Tainted Flesh Necro) used to beat [EviL] with in the GWFC season two. The ineffectiveness of hexes and conditions in HA, and ability to counter them for the most party with heal party on an elementalist in GVG masks the abusive abilities of the skill even on non-monk primaries.

I'd like to see Contemplation of Purity remove condition & hexes & heal only for removed monk enchantments.

(2) Obviously some key aspects of the Dervish that should not be overlooked are that (a) it is supposed to be a tank, and supposed to tank with Health and healing and (b) enchantments and eliminating them are a key part of its strategy. If the spike part of contemplation of purity is broken then the individual enchantments are broken. In fact, the dervish ought to have a 5 energy "remove all enchantments" skill in its bar already (for the purposes of testing). If it doesnt, then thats a flaw in the design of the class.

(3) Mysticism needs to be rethought. It is silly to think to use reversal of fortune as energy management, as reversal of fortune has its power balanced by the fact that its class have ineffective energy management. Anet already knew that Smiting broke mysticism, and at least we even played with Dervish skills because smiting didnt work. Compare mysticism to something like Soul reaping: there is no comparison in which primary allows for regular and reliable energy management.

(4) The recent nerf to the likes of defile Flesh and other "prevent healing" skills seems to have been made with dervish in mind. Should the Dervish's healing remain superior, then the nerf ought to be rethought.

MaximumSquid
31-07-2006, 19:08
Buddah: I never had a problem with kiters. . .

I had slots available to take a run skill if I pleased, but didn't take them.

The avatar ending wasn't a big deal either. Most of the time I didn't even re-apply it even though the battle was going long. . . There simply wasn't a need.

I'm excited that you were able to beat up on Dervish teams during the weekend and found some nice counters to it, but you have to realise that I had to do the same thing.

At one point I had to solo an entire team of D/Mo in Ta because my Ra team had been annihilated.

I ended up defeating them, but even victories like this didn't make me happy.

The cruel reality was that while I was trying to get the community involved by showing them how unbalanced the Dervish was I was at the very same time showing people how to make their own Dervishes even better. . .

Almost to the point of being unstopable.

Durron
31-07-2006, 19:09
Dont forget ANET is still in beta testing... by the time Nightfall rolls out I am confident that balance will be restored.

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 19:30
I'm just glad I could waste a few of those annoying people, that use there little cookie cutter builds day in day out, the feeling of satisfaction of see there dead bodies on the ground was most enjoyable, I got my revenge and it was a path pavend in blood, I had my fun.

Mhordin
31-07-2006, 21:55
For anyone who said Dervish doesn't need a nerf, that the hardcore PvPers are just complaining about being taken out of our comfort zone, please know that as soon as one build demands you design your own around defeating that one particular build, then that build has become a significant problem. what happens then, is we have a rock, paper, scissors contest in PvP.

rock: Dervway
paper: Dervway counter
scissors: counter to Dervway's counter

Rock beats Scissors, Scissors beats Paper, Paper beats Rock. this results from an unbalanced issue where one element defines the metagame. The shining point of the GW PvP has always been the variety of builds you can run.

So please, before you start accusing PvPers of being "stuck in a rut" please review the build progressions of pre-Factions PvP builds, and post-Factions PvP builds. There have been quita a bit of changes. We're not stuck in a rut, by any means. Dervish needs a nerf, if you don't think so it's clear you don't understand game balance.

-CranialFluids (ign - Another Rose)
Quoted For Truth

Inner Salbat
31-07-2006, 21:57
Quoted For Truth

Yeah like we already haven't had to completely rebuild and reinvent ourselfs to cope with gimmk builds out there.

If it wasn't for the 1 tracked minded, gimmik builds the whole meta game would be alive with people doing all sorts of things, that no one even thought of, maybe those skills that appear worthless, would have some use now and then, but no we have to either conform to the moronic lame ***, Vim / BSpike/RSpike/ViM or IWay, or be flattend by it or find some flipping counter too it, that 9 times out of 10 you don't end up facing in the first place.

And I do understand game balance, I find it unbalanced when you front up to 5-6 necros, or a mass load of rangers, or any another build that requires you use 90% of the party slots to use, just so you can kill things in one shoot, tell me how that is balanced then mr. fancy pants :) so you got what you deserved, you got owned by a single dervish or multipal (I'm hoping you got owned by 8 of them, all ganking you!) welcome to our world, the world that believes teams should be balanced in classes. (okay I think that's my last edit of this post)

Maybe not, if I had my way you'd be force to balance your team by now allowing more than 2 combinations of the same primary/secondary class, and I might go futher that if you repeatedly attempted the idea, your account was banned and deleted for all time, and yes I am that annoyed at how much those gimmiks are ruining the game.

If I want to die in one hit I'll go play dodgeball with my guildies, which is far more fun, and bucket loads more fun than watching 6 ugly tattoed freaks on steriods do it.

cranialfluids
01-08-2006, 05:29
First off, when you mentioned RSpike as a staple build, I immediately begin to question how well you grasp the metagame that HA has right now. RSpike has become extremely unpopular. The staple cookie cutter builds right now are IWAY, ViM, and BSpike.

As a balanced player I find it offensive that you would automatically assume a halls player plays only cookie cutter builds. As a balanced player I took it as a challenge to find a way to integrate a method of beating Dervway without designing my build as a counter to it. After failing consistently for 6 hours, and after realizing that every 6 out of 7 matches were Dervway, I decided that something was unbalanced about the build.

Nothing is unbalanced about Bspike, you have probably only ever played with a terrible infuser in your group.

Inner Salbat
01-08-2006, 06:20
First off, when you mentioned RSpike as a staple build, I immediately begin to question how well you grasp the metagame that HA has right now. RSpike has become extremely unpopular. The staple cookie cutter builds right now are IWAY, ViM, and BSpike.


I've mentioned those as well, unpopular or not it's still a gimmik build, and either way if I want the emote, I am going to have to do something I loath and detest just win, not so that I can say I'm skilled no not at all, just so I can have the emote no other reason, which is why I GvG more than HA because there is a better chance of coming up agist something balanced, fine most of the time we get rolled by it, but we don't quit either.

I think we've faced off with a balanced team vs WM at one point we gave them a few worries before we lost.



As a balanced player I find it offensive that you would automatically assume a halls player plays only cookie cutter builds. As a balanced player I took it as a challenge to find a way to integrate a method of beating Dervway without designing my build as a counter to it. After failing consistently for 6 hours, and after realizing that every 6 out of 7 matches were Dervway, I decided that something was unbalanced about the build.
Nothing is unbalanced about Bspike, you have probably only ever played with a terrible infuser in your group.

Nothing unbalanced? oh right so having absolutely no time to react at all before your dead is unbalanced now? yet you call dervway unbalanced for doing the exact same thing.

There is no skill with BSpike, you just walk up to an enermy with awaken the blood and kill the enermy, which basically denys the other team from playing at all, not very tactical at all.

And by the way it's not an asumption it's an observation, a bit like smite is sort of having a come back in small way, but that's still gimmik.

daftman
01-08-2006, 07:00
You do realize that a good portion of the problem with the dervish is Mysticism? Whenever an enchantment ends of them they are being healed, so the amount of dmg you're dealing when you strip these enchants is dramatically reduced, not to mention CoP functions as a self-infuse health.

There's no arguing with the fact that the dervish is broken. It has the most efficient nrg management in the game, better self heal/condition removal/hex removal than a monk, has an insanely high dps, and tanks dmg better than a warrior. good game, anet.

oh, and btw, even the members of EvIL are high ranked HA players. want a screen shot to prove it? or do you just want to take my word on it? HA players are not "talentless" by any stretch of the imagination.

Desecrate and Defile enchantment do not remove enchantment. They damage while keep the enchantment on. That is not a bug. It is how they are suppose to work. If a Dervish have stack of enchantment on, a necro with defile + desecrate enchantment can do 200+ to him. Other necro can also do 200+ to him. All 400+ while his enchantments are still on. If he's not dead yet a mesmer can shatter enchantment dealing the file 100 damage.

Kiting and illusion degen hex can rip the dervish apart.

don gudo
01-08-2006, 07:04
Nothing unbalanced? oh right so having absolutely no time to react at all before your dead is unbalanced now? yet you call dervway unbalanced for doing the exact same thing.

There is no skill with BSpike, you just walk up to an enermy with awaken the blood and kill the enermy, which basically denys the other team from playing at all, not very tactical at all.

And by the way it's not an asumption it's an observation, a bit like smite is sort of having a come back in small way, but that's still gimmik.

Yes, clearly any build in which the players develop the tremendously ingenious idea of all attacking one target at the same time is overpowered on the level of dervway. (if you didn't pick up on it here, I'm laying on the sarcasm pretty thick).

Maybe you should just, uhh, learn how to fight against a spike. Once you do, come back, and maybe you'll understand why those same methods DON'T work on dervway. gg. :soapbox:

Inner Salbat
01-08-2006, 07:21
Yes, clearly any build in which the players develop the tremendously ingenious idea of all attacking one target at the same time is overpowered on the level of dervway. (if you didn't pick up on it here, I'm laying on the sarcasm pretty thick).

Maybe you should just, uhh, learn how to fight against a spike. Once you do, come back, and maybe you'll understand why those same methods DON'T work on dervway. gg. :soapbox:

LOL, that's right defend your futile little farming spike that gives you fame without either honor or value of real skill. right on!

lavenbb
01-08-2006, 07:36
Yes, clearly any build in which the players develop the tremendously ingenious idea of all attacking one target at the same time is overpowered on the level of dervway. (if you didn't pick up on it here, I'm laying on the sarcasm pretty thick).

Maybe you should just, uhh, learn how to fight against a spike. Once you do, come back, and maybe you'll understand why those same methods DON'T work on dervway. gg. :soapbox:

and just why should the same methods work on this "dervway" anyway? :rolleyes:

Akirai Annuvil
01-08-2006, 10:35
Like lavenbb said It's logical that spike-counters against one type of spike don't work against any other spike :/ If YOU don't realize that then clearly your terrible at develepoing builds of your own using skills rarely used before. PLENTY of counters have already been managed and told about, you could even have tried one of those. But sticking to your old ways against a new type of foes is a terrible idea and ANY experienced GW-player (PvP or PvE) would instinctively know to look at new and untried spells against a new and untried foe.

But anyways over to how the problems can be fixed by ANet; it's already been said by everybody that Mysticism needs to be fixed for it gives too much energy. After my idea of making it give 1 energy per 3/4 ranks it sorta subsided. Now that I've come to my sense I find that a terrible terrible TERRIBLE idea.

You see it doesn't stop spamming those low-cost 5 nrg spells like RoF making the Dervish invincible. So i figured what makes Expertise so powerful, yet decently well balanced (if you disagree and think it's unbalanced shut up thats not my point >.>). 1) It works on a RIDICULOUS amount of skills (if i remember correctly it now states all non-spell skills although I truly truly hope that doesn't include binding rituals) and 2) it scales with the energy cost making it equally useful with skills which cost 25 energy (Concushion Shot for example) as with skills which cost 5 energy (Barrage for example).

So I figured we can't copy the skill completely, but we could copy it partially couldn't we? Why not use %percentages% instead of exact figures (1,2,3,4,5643) ? It would balance it out on all front making all enchantment spells much harder to maintain. The exact percentages should be something like 40% at Rank 12 Mysticism (that would mean 50% at rank 16, an increase of 10% per 3 ranks or 3.3333..% per 1 Rank) Which will allow them to easily maintain their enchantments while using some attack skills without making spamming of RoF and Guardian truly useful. It wuld also be easier for balancing reasons, because now all the skills needed to be 10 energy else the Dervish would have too much or too little energy, but because it scales now they could also say alright I'll make the energy cost higher in exchange for keeping the skill Heart of Holy Flame holy damage for example, without the skill being overpowered.

Another much smaller problem in my opinion is the health regain of the Dervish when enchantments end. It might seem unimportant (and it is in comparison to their energy management) but doubling the health gained from RoF was an ability first limited to the monk, through DF, but is now also available to the Dervish (through, again, Mysticism). Now although I don't have a problem with this, if other people do again make the bonus scale, and again relate it to energy cost. Maybe at rank 12 300% of the energy is the health gained (so from RoF you would gain 15 heath and from Protective Spirit you would gain 30 health and from Aegis (assuming it triggers the Mysticism bonus) 45 health etc.). That most certainly wouldn't be over powered. Maybe, MAYBE a few skills may need to be changed still (even though mysticism is nerfed it will always mean that CoP is great hex removal and I do not know if ANet intends it that way. For example.)

I might open a topic later when we've seemingly reached a greater consensus on whether they need a nerf, to stay the same or (God forbid just presenting all the options) need a buff (seriously God forbid. Or Satan if you can hear me better ;P) on what should be done exactly about them (that is going to be one entertaining discussion :).

don gudo
01-08-2006, 14:57
and just why should the same methods work on this "dervway" anyway? :rolleyes:

I think more or less all these responses failed to grasp what I was saying, but it's likely that it was atleast as much my fault as yours, so let's go again:

What I was telling Inner Salbat was that there's nothing overpowered (or original) about the concept of the spike - and, in consequence, there are some universal ways to defend against them - be they bspike, rspike, foc spike, fc air spike, it doesn't matter.

Infusing
cry of frustration
If it's physical damage, things like aegis and shields up.
if it's spell damage, e denial.
Kill them while they spike because they can't heal at the same time.
Protective Spirit
Pressure
Spell Breaker.

Now maybe my point can come into focus some...cry of frustration barely slows a dervish because they're spiking with 6 skills in rapid succession anyway, infusing is worthless when multiple (even if spread, due to huge ae radius) people are dying, e denial is ineffective because cop provides an instant source of energy, pressure and mid-spike kills don't work because right in the middle of their spike IS a heal (when they use CoP), and what I think is funniest even though it's obvious, spellbreaker can't even save 1 person because he or she isn't targetted by spells, the dervishes are enchanting themselves and just happen to kill everything nearby doing it :).

So, ok, come up with some new counters. But I think, when none of those universals ^ work, I'm not going to be impressed by whatever it is you do come up with.

Elcold
01-08-2006, 15:33
Is this CoP spike as overpowered as the spirit spammers were back in the day? Just wanted to know the comparison, cause those spirit spammers were nigh-unbeatable with any other build if they were half decent.

Nekretaal
01-08-2006, 15:59
But none of them do work



Infusing.

If two derveshes run up and dump 400 damage each, you just cant infuse that.


cry of frustration.

You try interrupting contemplation of purity with cry of frustration.


If it's physical damage, things like aegis and shields up..

A lot of it is holy Damage. It's not physical damage for the spike, although the pressure is physical damage


If it's spell damage, e denial..

E-denial doesnt work. Every reversal of fortune from the monk or another dervish is +7 energy. That's like a mini-Offering of Blood that heals you.


Kill them while they spike because they can't heal at the same time..

Actually this might work. But again, they all have reversal of fortune, so it will be tough, and your "window" to get this kill in is very small.


Protective Spirit.

Doesnt work too well. The damage comes in4-5 different packets, so instead of two spikers, you might need 4. Not to mention that the dervish also has very good enchantment removal.


Pressure.

Pressure is obsolete with the amount of healing that a simple reversal of fortune gets you. NOt to mention the immunity from conditions and hexes.


Spell Breaker..

Again, an untargeted spike cuts through spellbreaker.

Elruid
01-08-2006, 16:19
Contemplation of Purity. SPIKE. Impossible to imagine before this.
I'm quite confident they are fixing it for the release.
However, I also hope they won't be too heavy on the "down-toning" of skills,
like they have been in the past.
In the end I feel if only the health gain from Mysticism was reduced or set into a set of restraints,
this issue could solve itself.

Mhordin
01-08-2006, 17:12
Nekretaal, go re-read gudo's post, you two are in agreement. He is listing general spike counters and then saying these spike counters don't work against cop spike.

Akirai Annuvil
01-08-2006, 19:24
@ Don Gudo

Most of the counters you listed wont work thats true. But don't forget that they're dependant on removing the enchants. So what could you do for example? Diversion or power Block their CoP (or Mystic Sandstorm if they're using that one, but CoP is more common). Infuse might not work, and cry of frustration might not work but that doesn't mean that nothing works. It just mean that the old ways don't work.
Like I said they require the use of enchantment spells, so another thing to do is inflict daze. Broad head arrow, concushion shot, temple strike; some of them have fallen in disuse. Doesn't mean that they can't be good for this situation. Doesn't shroud of silence disable enchantment casting on someone? And Well of the Profane or Lingering Curse? Dervishes have weak armor. Without buffs they fall quickly. All their buffs are either spells or forms. Disable buffs and all they've got left are their forms. If he uses Melandru, use hexes like Crippling Anguish or Kitah's Burden. If he uses Dwayna, try and keep him dazed or interrupted.

You've made two points which all people agree on are major problems, namely armor-ignoring damage and their insane energy management. However ideas have already been made to resolve these issues. The ANet dudes will probably hear about some of those ideas, and fix hem accordingly (or based upon those ideas, or based on ideas which they made themselves which are even better). The only thing we can do right now is try and find a solution. It won't help to say they're too strong after you've only looked at the common counters. Obscure things can be great :).

@ Nekretaal

Read the entire post before responding to it, what you're doing is idiocy and not worthy of such a good post. So be intelligent read full threads and posts before typing in knee-jerk reactions.

cranialfluids
01-08-2006, 22:32
@Inner Salbat

I'm r3, 8 of that fame is from iway, 6 is from bspike, 1 is from rspike, 0 from ViM. My bambi is 165 fame worth of balanced.

@the ideas of possible counters

The fact of the matter is, there aren't any ways to just 'counter' dervish. Like I've said before, they tank better than a warrior, they have more efficient self healing than any monk, the best nrg management in the game, and an insanely high dps. All of this = broken.

Ectos N Shards
01-08-2006, 23:20
Im with the idea of them overpowering it to buy the expansion. Just like assassins were introduced.

vorpalbunny
01-08-2006, 23:36
NR and Quickening zephyr rocks d/mos

Akirai Annuvil
01-08-2006, 23:41
Quote from cranialfluids:
@the ideas of possible counters

The fact of the matter is, there aren't any ways to just 'counter' dervish. Like I've said before, they tank better than a warrior, they have more efficient self healing than any monk, the best nrg management in the game, and an insanely high dps. All of this = broken.

We've already listed tons of counters; looking at your reply you hardly seemed to have browsed through them. You're atitude as to this being the 'fact of the matter' is despicable; you talk about facts where you don't know anything.
What you completely 'forgot' in your listing of 'facts' is that they're also as melee as a warrior, so there is of course an easy counter; avoid them! Snares or just plain running away aren't two difficult things to accomplish certainly not for a rank 3 pvp player whose used to devising balanced parties; unless of course you regurgitate the same party over and ver again. But in that case you haven't looked for a solution, let alone tried one. It's useless talking to someone like you about something like that, were you require even a shade of originality which even I a-not-'experienced'-PvP-player managed :/ seriously get off your elitist ego-trip, nobody with half a brain gives a **** about rankings :angry:

neoflame
01-08-2006, 23:58
You can't snare something that CoP's 3 enchantments every 8 seconds, and you can't kite something with perma-33% speed buff.

lavenbb
01-08-2006, 23:58
For those who think spikers are uncounterable..

Angelic Protection
For 10 seconds, any time target other ally takes more than 250-100 damage per second, that ally is healed for any damage over that amount.

Now there are currently some limitation in this skill such that it's underpowered (at least I think it is). But if balanced correctly this will be THE answer to anti spiking.

cranialfluids
02-08-2006, 00:09
They aren't as "melee as a warrior". They're aoe. Nearby, to be exact. Their enchantments had the same aoe range of Flame Burst. Snare doesn't work because the d/mo has extremely efficient condition/hex removal. Like I said before, sure I could've designed a build to be a complete counter to Dervway, but that still wouldn't have been a balanced game environment (refer to my rock/paper/scissors analogy)

As for my list of facts, here they are:

D/mo has one of the most powerful forms of nrg management in the game
D/mo has the ability to tank more efficiently than a warrior with the Avatars
D/mo has an obscenely high amount of aoe dmg, compare dmg/nrg/cast times to an elementalist
D/mo can basically infuse itself with CoP

So we have a damage tanking, aoe spiking, self infuser. Yeah. I can see how that doesn't need a nerf.

NR/Qz/tranq was the build I had the most success with, but it still got rolled half the time, and the times it were very close.

Buddah
02-08-2006, 00:35
You can't snare something that CoP's 3 enchantments every 8 seconds, CoP is a 10 second recycle.

It's sad how so many people just assume that these De/Mo have CoP ready to use whenever they need it. As I pointed out in the past, right after they use CoP they are very vulnerable.

Akirai Annuvil
02-08-2006, 01:49
@ cranialfluids

You still didn't read any of the counters did you? *sigh* I'm really too tired to do this but here it goes...

Running out of the area of effect of a flame burst is doable if not easy -- because the casting time is so short. Of the enchantments the casting time is a FULL SECOND plus a lengthy aftercast -- if you can't run away in that amount of time I have no idea what you're doing. I could do that with my Monk/Elementalist healer setup. I've seen plenty of people do that all the time at AB's. Guess what they didn't die!

Now stop with your 'facts'. Facts are things you can prove, which so far you have not done. It's a small thing but please don't call them what they're not.

And what did you call 'extremely efficient enchantment/hex removal'? CoP? A skill with a ten-second recharge cycle? You CAN'T figure out any way to snare someone in 10 seconds? And if you're talking about their forms that will give them either efficient condition removal (extremely efficient) or hex removal (again very efficient) it'll give em only one -- so nail him with the other.

I agree with you that they have insane enrgy management -- I've already said that a thousand times. Which you would've known. If you would've read any posts except for the five you reply to. I also think that their damage output is very high but only because it is armor ignoring. If it isn't armor ignoring it's power rapidly diminishes.

The healing he can gain from CoP is substantial; but CoP isn't the problem it's the overpowered facet Mysticism. Which I've also already said. Again read posts.

Next point would be to discuss whether you need an entire build against a single enemy. 1) that is never the case. If you look at a lot of counters I presented to Dervishes they simply mean that they wont come close or can't get off they're enchantments. They were designed with Dervishes in mind.
2) Does that mean they're useless against non-Dervishes? No. snaring a touch or trap ranger or an assassin, or a warrior or any other mostly melee class is almost always great and will slow them down.
Monks also use loads of enchantments. Elementalists often use at least one enchantment, and then you've got necro's who are sometimes party support. Many things which stop enchantment spells, also stop other spells (Arcane Conundrum, Migraine {E}, any dazed inflicting skill) making them useful against all caster classes. And you can combine those things in a single skillbar. I might even give you a build for it tomorrow so that when Nightfall comes out you can see whether it'll work yourself, assuming they haven't nuked the Dervish with the nerfbat to the Moon and Back Again making him so useless that even a wombat could beat them. Now I'm going to bed. Bye bye :wave: :cloud9:

cranialfluids
02-08-2006, 03:32
1) I'm almost 100% sure that the CoP recharge is faster than the recharge for the snaring spells

2) you can't just "kite" a dervish. It has Avatar of Balthazar. Its runs 33% faster than you. also, when it CoP's Grenth's fingers off (assumedly after you try and cast a hex on it) you get crippled. good luck kiting something that runs faster than you BEFORE you got crippled.

3) unless you plan on making 6/8 of your team migraine/snare players, have fun with disrupting the whole other dervish team enough to drop their dps to something manageable. Also, making too much of your team a disruption class means your own team has a very low dps. which means, you won't be killing anything

4) CoP is exactly what I meant when I said "efficient hex removal". lets take this situation: grenths fingers, balthazar's rage, CoP. Lose two hexes, two conditions, get healed for a lot. These two enchantments falling off have 5 second recharge times. Which means you can recast them before CoP is back, and remove yet more hexes. Now lets look at other hex removal. Inspired/Revealed hex removes one hex every 21 seconds. Holy Veil, removes one hex every 15 seconds. Remove Hex, removes one hex every 7 seconds, but at the cost of a 2 second cast time. How is CoP not exceedingly more efficient than all of these?

I XM
02-08-2006, 04:18
Spirit Bond (Protection Prayers)
Enchantment Spell
10E 0.25s 2s
For 8 seconds, whenever target ally takes more than 60 damage from a single attack or Spell, that ally is healed for 40...88 Health.

Damage from Balthazar's Rage, Grenth's Fingers and Hear of Holy Flame would all trigger it. Combine with Protective Spirit as cover and the Dervishes are healing you for free. If one is stripped the one underneath is still denying the bulk of the damage. And no you don't have to cast it on all your team, if you are getting more than 2-3 people max being hit by the AoE at a time, you are doing something very wrong.

And for those complaining about CoP + Avatar of Balthazar. Take a look at Mystic Sandstorm(8s recharge) + Avatar of Dwayna. And then you need only a single D/Mo with Avatar of Melandru + Draw Conditions. I hope you all realise that this setup has better damage, much better healing and hex removal (healing + hex removal for each skill use, including during the spike making up for lower AL) and only slightly less rapid condition removal overall. The only disadvantage would be that 3 of the 4 Dervish speed stances are slower than Avatar of Balthazar.

And as always: Diversion spamming owns anything. And I am 100% sure mesmers and necros will get some nasty anti-enchant spells and hexes in NightFall. And ofc the recharges on those AoE enchants will get increased as well as some other changes. But there is no need for a massive nerf.

Inner Salbat
02-08-2006, 04:27
@Inner Salbat

I'm r3, 8 of that fame is from iway, 6 is from bspike, 1 is from rspike, 0 from ViM. My bambi is 165 fame worth of balanced.

@the ideas of possible counters

The fact of the matter is, there aren't any ways to just 'counter' dervish. Like I've said before, they tank better than a warrior, they have more efficient self healing than any monk, the best nrg management in the game, and an insanely high dps. All of this = broken.

Too which I can only say in all due respect, your a whimp sir.

During the weekend, I won countless battels with my dervish and on a dervish team, my death count at the end of the weekend was 203, I made more than enough medalions to push my bank account way over 700k, am I a poor player, or are we talking about the fact that it is likely I didn't use the same build as everyone is whining about, considering everyone was hush hush about the dervish and it's devistation over the weekend, due likely too the fact it was good farmin' time and we didn't want some, stage 3 alert at arenanet to come down on us and use the nerf stick, at any rate I was countered _many many_ times, regardless of you whine babies saying there over power, I was taken down more times than I'd won, as I said previously I got my first glad point on the weekend, since I've not had one.

It's pretty easy to see what ArenaNet is trying to acomplish here;

For example:
The Assassin: was designed to get into battel do some dmg to the soft classes and get out again, hit and run tactics.

The Dervish: was designed to make you flee from them, and attack them at range, using an assassin maybe or spell casters, while making the dervish chase you.

Why would they design a classes like this?, because most of the time for the exception of monks / warriors (the smart ones at least) everyone else goes into battle and just stands there casting till the foe is dead, now everything has to move or be killed, use some formation and tactics for once, is it so hard?

@Akirai Annuvil : not true, I give a #### about rankings, because it gives me an emote, no other reason :) but your right, the only people that care about ranking is someone who has an inflated ego.

@Buddah : not only that recharge time, but also they have to have the energy to use it too, with 25 energy casting enchantments that cost 10e , 10 e, 15e, they have to wait for 5 bips at least before they can use either RoF or CoP, even more time than 10 seconds to react, it's more like 15-20 seconds, before it can be re-used again, and even then you don't get a full bar back of energy, at least I never did. from my time playing I'd always have to wait about 5 seconds for the bar to be full. then there is the recharge time of enchantments to wait for too, at least 2 enchantments will still be rechanging before they can be reused again, so maybe about 30 second before a dervish can be considered outputting dmg again, 40 second being maybe overly generious.


2) you can't just "kite" a dervish. It has Avatar of Balthazar. Its runs 33% faster than you. also, when it CoP's Grenth's fingers off (assumedly after you try and cast a hex on it) you get crippled. good luck kiting something that runs faster than you BEFORE you got crippled.


How is that any different than a warrior taking charge/spint, or a ranger taking his speed buffs?

neoflame
02-08-2006, 04:39
because most of the time for the exception of monks / warriors (the smart ones at least) everyone else goes into battle and just stands there casting till the foe is dead
You are retarded. Good day, sir.

Alexia of Durham
02-08-2006, 04:41
I'd like to see Contemplation of Purity remove condition & hexes & heal only for removed monk enchantments.

typical. And what do you suggest monks use for energy management /self heal then?? All that's left then is energy drain.Next up will be you asking for a huge nerf of energy - drain , because all the boon/protects are then using that one.

Chances are that change we saw to divine boon will become permanent when nightfalll arrives ( with NO decent e-management skill in return,mark my words ) .

Arutima
02-08-2006, 05:08
avatar of balth's +33% can be stopped with muddy terrain
getting cripple by finger of grenth can be send back via plague sending/plague touch if you are a necro/have a necro secondary

snowkissed
02-08-2006, 05:32
You are retarded. Good day, sir.

You are banned for two days. Good day, sir. :rolleyes:

Seriously, knock off the insults. If you have nothing but what I just quoted to say, dont post at all.

Akirai Annuvil - 1 day ban. Be nice.

Raxxman
02-08-2006, 16:55
My major problem is I've yet to see an effective warrior counter vs D/Mo. The only so so one is knockdowns, but that's essentially making you play a shock warrior or a hammer warrior (I thought we were trying to cut down on cookies yeah?) The concept of kiting isn't alien to a (good) warrior but then you become less and less useful, one D/Mo can imediately start pounding you hard while you're building up adrenal, any spike is laughed off as your deepwound goes away and the Dervishes healths goes back to full. So how do you counter?

I seriously want to know, Mesmers are powerful shutdown, but a the cost of focus and a warrior gets to one he/she can lay on serious hurt. Warriors get shutdown way more effectively (conditions/hexes/wards) and lack anyway of ripping them off effectively.

I just can't see the point of running a non-knockdown warrior over a D/Mo. Your DPS is lower, your spike is much slower and lower, you're way way more dependent on a good monk backline.

Bobross
02-08-2006, 22:48
During the weekend, I won countless battels with my dervish and on a dervish team, my death count at the end of the weekend was 203, I made more than enough medalions to push my bank account way over 700k, am I a poor player, or are we talking about the fact that it is likely I didn't use the same build as everyone is whining about, considering everyone was hush hush about the dervish and it's devistation over the weekend, due likely too the fact it was good farmin' time and we didn't want some, stage 3 alert at arenanet to come down on us and use the nerf stick, at any rate I was countered _many many_ times, regardless of you whine babies saying there over power, I was taken down more times than I'd won, as I said previously I got my first glad point on the weekend, since I've not had one.


Umm...so I also played as Dervish, and I won the vast majority of games, far too easily IMO and despite many attempts at counters - which were good in concept, but couldn't overcome the overpowered skills I had at my disposal. A great deal of the games that I didn't win, wound up in a stalemate, where no one was able to kill me...so I quit. This was in RAs, not tombs, and not with a CoP spike build, but close to it.

I'm not sure if you are arguing for or against nerfing Dervishes, but if its the class that got you your first glad point, well that tells me something. If you've been unable to get a glad point until now, and then a new class comes along, and lo and behold, you're undefeated for 10 games in a row in a team of all Dervishes...well it tells me that even an unskilled player can still steamroll everyone else with it...

That doesn't necessarily mean its overpowered- flavor of the month builds accomplish the same thing, (eg. IWAY, touch ranger, etc) But there's easy and plentiful counters to those builds, and once people start packing them, only the skilled and the lucky continue to succeed.

That's the key: to preserve balance - an overspecialized build like touch ranger should be devastating if not countered, but useless, or easy to kill, if countered properly.

Dervishes presented a whole new problem with plentiful, cheap condition & hex removal, excellent energy management, great self heals/damage mitigation, several amazing speed buffs, condition spreading (including cripple) and excellent aoe physical and elemental damage all available in the same build! There's not many simple counters to those combinations, which forces people to either play as a dervish, or specialize as being an anti-dervish, if they want to succeed. That's a bit different than just including a snare in your build to deal with touch rangers, or a block/evasion stance to deal with IWAY. Whats worse is that even after specializing to deal with dervishes...the Dervish skills could still overpower the counters, if the player was skilled enough (example: Someone cast ineptitude on me, so I just spammed spells and still killed people, in another game, someone cast backfire on me, and I used my signet to remove enchantments and heal myself for 150 - 300 dmg a pop, while I waited for it to end...later, when CoP recharged, I was able to easily remove it...even if I wasn't skilled enough to do either of these, I could have still casted through it and been fine, with my ridiculous self healing ability.)

SuXxorz
03-08-2006, 00:33
I just can't see the point of running a non-knockdown warrior over a D/Mo. Your DPS is lower, your spike is much slower and lower, you're way way more dependent on a good monk backline.

I guess that's y warriors can get gloves that increases their knockdown times by 1 sec... When fighting against a dervish, u have the knowledge that they have no way of knocking you down nor interrupting you...

What I said in another thread was this... ( Assuming those standard builds )

Straight forward attack ( no running )
Dervish > Warrior > Assassin

Spike Potential
Assassin > Warrior > Dervish

Btw, I do agree the dervish could use some tweaking ( but not alot ) assuming the new skills aren't going to be that great...

And to the other guy who says touch rangers could be countered easily... I've made a touch ranger myself and it's alot easier to win assuming it's built correctly... What's sad is the standard touch rangers build is too defensive and offers hardly anything to the team... If they would just use pets, I think their output is almost doubled...

For instance, as a R/N ( For RA or TA ) I might use,

1. Gaze of Contempt ( Sometimes I use a cripple, or disrupt, or debilitating shot here)
2. Ferocious strike
3. Vampiric Bite
4. Wallow's Bite ( I'd use Vampiric Touch, except I dont have prophecies )
5. Whirling Defense
6. Charm Animal
7. Animal's Comfort ( whatever the pet rez is called )
8. Rez Signet

I find that much more effective for a team... I just felt like saying that, but since this is supposed to be about dervish, I'll leave it at that...

Inner Salbat
03-08-2006, 06:30
Umm...so I also played as Dervish, and I won the vast majority of games, far too easily IMO and despite many attempts at counters - which were good in concept, but couldn't overcome the overpowered skills I had at my disposal. A great deal of the games that I didn't win, wound up in a stalemate, where no one was able to kill me...so I quit. This was in RAs, not tombs, and not with a CoP spike build, but close to it.


While I experanced something completely different, I've seen stalemates happen without Dervishs even in the match up, so that's nothing 'new'.



I'm not sure if you are arguing for or against nerfing Dervishes, but if its the class that got you your first glad point, well that tells me something. If you've been unable to get a glad point until now, and then a new class comes along, and lo and behold, you're undefeated for 10 games in a row in a team of all Dervishes...well it tells me that even an unskilled player can still steamroll everyone else with it...

I'm against the nerfing, but have the realisation that there going to ruin the class anyway, no matter what we say about it mainly because ANet do not know how to buff, they can only nerf bat ever little thing in the game.



That doesn't necessarily mean its overpowered- flavor of the month builds accomplish the same thing, (eg. IWAY, touch ranger, etc) But there's easy and plentiful counters to those builds, and once people start packing them, only the skilled and the lucky continue to succeed.


Well yes, I think maybe we needed a week with them to be able to come up with something that worked, I believe in the ideal that to play a class, and to play against a class, you should have play it and understod it, for something takes a little longer than most.

heman
03-08-2006, 14:31
They'll nerf it a bit. There is a reason why they have preview events.:smiley:

Inner Salbat
03-08-2006, 14:37
They'll nerf it a bit. There is a reason why they have preview events.:smiley:

It all depends on what they change, I'd buy C3 regardless but never the less if they tone them down too much, they'll end up like the last 2 classes the made, I played them I delete the pve toons before any of them reached 6, and I just don't play them, as far as I'm conserned I couldn't careless about the rit/***, it'll just mean 2 free slots, so I can have a necro on my main account, and 2 free pvp slots.

Akirai Annuvil
03-08-2006, 15:43
Quote from: Snowkissed
Akirai Annuvil - 1 day ban. Be nice.

Alright I'll play nice :)


Quote from: Suxxorz
What I said in another thread was this... ( Assuming those standard builds )

Straight forward attack ( no running )
Dervish > Warrior > Assassin

Spike Potential
Assassin > Warrior > Dervish


Thank you I agree, that's why I listed snares as being the most efficient thing against Dervishes. Dervishes can hardly spike against high-armor opponents especially if they can also evade/block nullifying their scythe damage. A good example would be Dryder's Defense giving you huge elemental damage (vs. their spells), and good evasion against their scythes.
A problem would then be their holy damage, but by limiting it to only one skill with a semi-high-energy cost or semi-long recharge you practically nullify that problem.


Quote from Bobross:

[..]Dervishes presented a whole new problem with plentiful, cheap condition & hex removal, excellent energy management, great self heals/damage mitigation, several amazing speed buffs, condition spreading (including cripple) and excellent aoe physical and elemental damage all available in the same build! There's not many simple counters to those combinations, which forces people to either play as a dervish, or specialize as being an anti-dervish, if they want to succeed.[..]

The plentiful condition & hex removal isn't CoP right? Well if it is just lock it up. Diversion is skill all mesmers have why not use it? They're excellent energy management is almost a direct problem resulting from Mysticism, which is indeed over-powering however can be easily rectified. If cop is plentiful condition removal Mend Ailment is most certainly also, and can be used by all classes against their AoE conditions even healing you back to full if you have spent points in Prot. Prayers. So far I have only heard about one amazing speed buff which is Avatar of Balthazar, however like previously mentioned that can easily be solved with a spirit of muddy terrain (@ Arutima; very good idea really like it, it even slows them down :)
Cobine that with a hex or a condition to slow down, and your pretty much safe.

I promised a build to stop most Dervishes in their tracks so I will deliver.

The build is a Ranger/* and build around the idea that with most De/mo's that their spikes are based on spells and can thus be interrupted, and that they are most effective if they all focus on one character. Because they're melee they also travel in packs and very near to each other, so Choking Gas would interrupt all of them.

Expertise -- 13 (+2)
Marksmanship -- 12 (+1+1)
Wilderness Survival -- 12 (+2)

Armor +5 :) Shortbow of Fortitude

Practiced Stance {E}
Choking Gas
Concushion Shot
Throw Dirt
Storm Chaser
Snare (not just a snare but the trap Snare which causes cripple)
Nature's Renewal
Debilitating Shot

Alrighty, keep NR up at all times, the same goes for Choking Gas. Snare your healer/prot monk (or whoever is the most important to snare), and keep Throw Dirt ready at all times to blind the occasional melee fighter (be it an assassin or a warrior or your accidental melee Dervish blind him when necesarry). Throw Debilitating Shot out at enemies who rely heavily on their energy (monks, mesmers, dervishes, asassins, other rangers, one debilitating shot wastes 20-33% of their energy in some cases even 40%). Use Storm Chaser either to regain your energy or to flee, and concushion shot to interrupt that vital spell while causing dazed.

Don't forget that NR causes their enchantment spells to have a double casting time so it takes two seconds to cast such a spell. Which is the same as the attack time of a shortbow. Convenient no :)
It doesn't rely on conditions, enchantments or hexes to stop them so CoP nor the forms are a problem to the build.
I might be able to make up other builds which would be good against the Dervishes with other classes, but most of my PvP experience comes from using a Ranger (plus they have the natural advantage of having high-elemental armor and not terrible physical armor). Other skills which might be good against the Dervish:

Necromancer: Spoil Victor, SS, Soul Leech, Mark of Subcersion, Desecrate Enchantments, Plague Touch, Well of the Profane

Mesmer: Shatter enchantments, all the slow down skills, all the energy draining skills, all the shutdown skills (in particular Power Block + Diversion), Feedback

Elementalist: Maelstrom, Unsteady Ground, all snares, Ward against Elements/Melee/Harm, PBAoE (Point blank area of effect) spells (look in the fireline e.g. Starburst, Double Dragon, Flame burst etc.), Armor of Earth (dangerous though; do not think of running away)

Monks: Protective Spirit, Reversal of Fortune, Spirit Bond

Warriors: (Not that many ideas to be honest, I'd flee but I'm bad at melee :) hamstring, other slow down skills, Riposte, Triple Axe, other PBAoE attacks, possibly some stances, Watch Yourself

Assassins: A more complicated class so a longer explanation; your best bet seems to be to just teleport in and out. I'd say go in either with Dash and then return with Return (pun unintended) or use Recall or Aura of Displacement. for the rest do your damage dealing things ;) Death Blossom shines thanks to loads of adjacent foes.

Ritualist: Shelter, Union, you are ill-suited for taking on many enemes at once, Mighty Was Vorizun, Wanderlust+Earthbound, Generous was Tsungrai, Vengeful Weapon

Alright done have fun :)

Inner Salbat
03-08-2006, 16:28
Thank you I agree, that's why I listed snares as being the most efficient thing against Dervishes. Dervishes can hardly spike against high-armor opponents especially if they can also evade/block nullifying their scythe damage. A good example would be Dryder's Defense giving you huge elemental damage (vs. their spells), and good evasion against their scythes.
A problem would then be their holy damage, but by limiting it to only one skill with a semi-high-energy cost or semi-long recharge you practically nullify that problem.

Yes, but as we've seen in the past ArenaNet have this tendancy to over nerf things, fire storm for example no one uses it anymore because it makes foes flee from you, which is not desired.

As result fire elementalists aren't as much anymore, and we've lost something from the game because it almost, it was nice to unleast all that dmg as an elementalist all at once, because it looked cool.

Now all you see is big balls of dust flying everywhere and that's it, my point is here, because of there over nerf mentality you could see the dervish become the next assassin, or rituralist and side lined to the benchs, while the 6 core classes take priority in group building as it was with factions, do you really want that ? (I don't)

And if they do nerf them into the ice age, then we'll know after using them if there the next potential assassin, and we should in future pre-betas realise that they where buffed slightly to attacted customers to the next chapter.

... interesting builds by the way.

Akirai Annuvil
04-08-2006, 00:14
Yes I agree that they will probably nerf them into oblivion and then drag them back again; that is why I'm arguing so fiercely to stop just that. I'm telling ANet what nefs i think they should use and what nerfs others think they should use which I think they should ignore.

Oh and I have to admit that I agreed to a certain extent to the nerfing of AoE damage. It was much too easy to simply cast searing eat and firestorm and meteor shower and see everyone die (except your allies of course).
It meant that nay other damage dealing class was far obsolete in most areas of the game (not for example fire islands unless you took a ranger with Winter in which case the areas were ridiculously easy). However they have now become too useless as well... but that's not the discussion at hand :)

Oh and i didn't mean have those skill listings as builds just as ideas to get other minds started :) if you want something more fleshed out check out the counters thread, it has a few very nice things listed in it which i hadn't thought off. And the ranger build is something I play sometimes, except without nature's renewal (most of the time a rez instead and occasionally a weapon spell or enchantment buffing my damage). i think I'll post that last bit of my post in the counter thread as well, just as a passing mention. it belongs there more than it belongs here.

Traynor Dragonblade
10-08-2006, 17:49
Viable (or not so viable) Nerf: (50% chance to fail with Divine Favor 4 or less)


I could like this idea as a balance. You could still use the CoP spike SOME if you had a monk who could coordinate with a dervish on their team, but it would actually take coordination and some skill, and would require that monk to spend a decent amount of time watching that one or two dervishes. It would also help in eliminating a team of dervishes from using a mass-COP spike tactic.

I'm would like to see some changes to the class and some of their skills, I just hope that it doesn't cripple the class too far to play regularly. Yes it was just a preview event, but if noone says anything or proposes balances than the development team may not realize how big an issue it could become in the future to the metagame.

Nekretaal
10-08-2006, 18:36
[QUOTE=Alexia of Durham]typical. And what do you suggest monks use for energy management /self heal then?? All that's left then is energy drain.Next up will be you asking for a huge nerf of energy - drain , because all the boon/protects are then using that one.
[QUOTE]

I'd like to see contemplation of purity nerfed out of existence (like capping hexes removed at 2 or something and requiring divine favor to even do this, AND making them only work on monk enchantments), and complementing this by giving monks other viable enchantment/hex removal in addition to more energy management options (possibly offering of blood could be un-nerfed, and something like convert hexes could have its casting time lowered).

highjinx
10-08-2006, 19:33
CoP?\

You guys think this is that powerful that youve devoted over 20 pages of posts to it?

Its really not that overpowered... I know for a fact there are better ways to D/Mo even tho I only went PRO after ONE WEEKEND lol pshh

Hijo Jhinn
13-08-2006, 03:06
IMO, CoP spike wasn't as good as Pious Renewal/Mystic Sandstorm Spike. CoP was an overheal while this spike healed enough, gave bonus energy, and did more damage. The only thing CoP had on it, was condition and hex removal, which was overpowered and unnecesary with a monk on your team.

Out of plenty of experience, my build had no CoP and beat CoP spikers the majority of the time. I never lost once to a CoP spiker 1v1 and was ignored every time I tried to explain to one of them my build and how it was superior. I'm sure others have seen this build around, and you may still disagree with me that it is better, but like I said, out of experience, it was.

16 Mysticism
13 Earth Prayers

Arcane Zeal
Pious Renewal
Mirage Cloak
Dust Cloak
Staggering Force
Balths Rage
Mystic sandstorm
Res Sig

I'm not sure why Im posting this, I guess because there are 200 posts in this thread, and CoP isn't even the most overpowered thing out there :P. On a few occasions, this build was ganked by several players ( atleast one CoP spiker) and killed them all NP.

As long as you are alive when you cast mystic sandstorm, you gain all health and all energy, rinse and repeat from skill 1-7. You do something like 500 damage, conditions, and alla that good stuff.

Has anyone else seen, used, or played against this?

lavenbb
13-08-2006, 09:29
without CoP, standard hex/condition overload is more than enough to handle any pbaoe spikers.

Ace Bear
14-08-2006, 02:01
Ya know I keep hearing people suggest nerf CoP. Why? That not only hurts this build but alot of builds. Instead change Mysticism.

right now it says:
Mysticism (Primary Attribute): Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 3 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Mysticism.

change one word:
Mysticism (Primary Attribute): Whenever an Enchantment is applied, you gain 3 Health for each 2 ranks of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism.

Nerfs the spike but doesn't take away the option of making that build(it just won't be as dominating). 9 in Mysticism will give them 12 hp per enchant and 3 energy. Why did I up the required ranks? Simple, Smite would simply smite off them for unlimited energy and hp, but even then with the original numbers it would only work til their Monks were dead heh.

Looks better to me.

EternalSoul
14-08-2006, 09:01
Originally Posted by Hijo Jhinn

16 Mysticism
13 Earth Prayers

Arcane Zeal
Pious Renewal
Mirage Cloak
Dust Cloak
Staggering Force
Balths Rage
Mystic sandstorm
Res Sig

Total damage is 485 + weaken and cripple. You have some evade and the Pious Renewal gives you some hp and energy as well. But it doesn't seem like you'd be able tank quite as well as the CoP Dervish. This spike works by casting all the enchants quickly I presume? As does the CoP Dervish, well that's a lotta spells...and a simple backfire would rly mess you up for 10 seconds. While the CoP could remove the backfire. CoP btw, well the build I looked at, did only 276 + fire. Hijo, your build seems stronger 1v1 but it doesn't seem like it'd work as well since there is no condition/hex removal. A monk might be able to cover conditions, but only so many hexes.

teh warrior
14-08-2006, 13:18
Anet will probally nerf it after NightFall is released.

The Last Windseeker
16-08-2006, 23:19
I had some real fun with a CoP build I was using in random arenas. I wasn't using CoP for the spike damage but for the condition and hex removal and the quick energy gain. I had an energy drain/ anti caster mesmer on me , and a degen mesmer on me and I held out for two minutes strait by casting enchantments with what little energy I had , then using CoP to remove all the hexes, gain a lot of life, and get my energy back. I also had dwayna form for additional hex removal and health gain. I probably would have been able to take down both of the mesmers if it weren't for the monk healing them.

I think CoP is possibly one of the best skills that could be used by a dervish. Being able to remove conditions, hexes, and gain the health and energy from the enchants falling off for only 5 energy is amazing. I'm guessing they will change something to reduce the effectivenss of this skill for Dervishes but if not I will definitly be using it with the release of nightfall.

Hijo Jhinn
20-08-2006, 02:46
I think the extra 150 damage minus hex removal is an extremely large improvement... but that's just me. On the other hand, if this game were a soloing type game where you didn't have teammates, I would agree with you. True, monks only have so much hex removal, but if it ended up being that big of a problem in PvP, obviously changes could be made and more hex removal added. I stand by my build in being more powerful that the CoP spike.

And like I said, I beat CoP spikers constantly during the event. I even beat several of them at once on several occasions.

Renegade Returns
20-08-2006, 18:10
If they would have to nerf CoP then they would have to nerf Release Enchantments to since it makes you lose all enchants as well but doesnt remove hexes or conditions.

I Orca I
21-08-2006, 15:02
The build is a Ranger/* and build around the idea that with most De/mo's that their spikes are based on spells and can thus be interrupted, and that they are most effective if they all focus on one character. Because they're melee they also travel in packs and very near to each other, so Choking Gas would interrupt all of them.

Expertise -- 13 (+2)
Marksmanship -- 12 (+1+1)
Wilderness Survival -- 12 (+2)

Armor +5 :) Shortbow of Fortitude

Practiced Stance {E}
Choking Gas
Concushion Shot
Throw Dirt
Storm Chaser
Snare (not just a snare but the trap Snare which causes cripple)
Nature's Renewal
Debilitating Shot

Alrighty, keep NR up at all times, the same goes for Choking Gas. Snare your healer/prot monk (or whoever is the most important to snare), and keep Throw Dirt ready at all times to blind the occasional melee fighter (be it an assassin or a warrior or your accidental melee Dervish blind him when necesarry). Throw Debilitating Shot out at enemies who rely heavily on their energy (monks, mesmers, dervishes, asassins, other rangers, one debilitating shot wastes 20-33% of their energy in some cases even 40%). Use Storm Chaser either to regain your energy or to flee, and concushion shot to interrupt that vital spell while causing dazed.

Don't forget that NR causes their enchantment spells to have a double casting time so it takes two seconds to cast such a spell. Which is the same as the attack time of a shortbow. Convenient no :)
It doesn't rely on conditions, enchantments or hexes to stop them so CoP nor the forms are a problem to the build.
I might be able to make up other builds which would be good against the Dervishes with other classes, but most of my PvP experience comes from using a Ranger (plus they have the natural advantage of having high-elemental armor and not terrible physical armor).


Quite frankly I think that is a brilliant build, just have to make sure they dont take down NR. The plus it that it would work against anything using an enchant.

A migrane mesmer could so much the same thing as long as they made sure no enchants ever were applied before battle (ie. remove any enchants if you see it. Rend enchantments would work. ) or applied from outside parties (Monks, x/mo etc.) . Migrane plus a few interrupt spells and rend enchantments, should theorhetically stop a d/mo spiker.

critical vengeance
21-08-2006, 15:33
yes that build seems quite good actually :)

but eh *cough*

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/8263/copdq5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

somethingorother
22-08-2006, 17:25
How about having the umber of echants CoP removes rely on Divine Favor? The monks, who are the ones who are supposed to heal, will be able to use it fine, but the Dervishes won't.

Artemis Shadowhawk
28-08-2006, 04:18
I was looking at all the descriptions of these enchantments on GWOnline and I was just wondering if I am missing something?

Grenth's Fingers
"All nearby foes are struck for 40-100 cold damage. For 30 seconds, your attacks deal cold damage. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes are Crippled for 4-10 seconds. "

And from everything I've heard, it's suppose to deal damage when it ends? But by that description, it doesn't really sound like it deals upon ending, but rather right when the skill is activated. So I was just wondering what the missing link is?

I am Bale
28-08-2006, 15:18
I'd like to know that too. I read it that you activate it, it does damage, and then after 30 seconds it cripples nearby foes. Isn't that right?

Traynor Dragonblade
28-08-2006, 16:57
I was looking at all the descriptions of these enchantments on GWOnline and I was just wondering if I am missing something?

Grenth's Fingers
"All nearby foes are struck for 40-100 cold damage. For 30 seconds, your attacks deal cold damage. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes are Crippled for 4-10 seconds. "

And from everything I've heard, it's suppose to deal damage when it ends? But by that description, it doesn't really sound like it deals upon ending, but rather right when the skill is activated. So I was just wondering what the missing link is?

Most of the enchants do the damage when you activate them, and when they end cause conditions to enemies. Dervishes also gain health and energy when enchants end. Also, it usually isn't exactly 30 seconds or the entire length of the enchantment, as they will use CoP to end it prematurely, I believe. So they can time it with the recharge of the enchantments to hit it and do damg, then end the enchant (which gives them health and energy) and cause conditions to enemies, rinse repeat.

I believe that was the part you perhaps were wondering about. The combination of mysticism with using all the enchants and CoP to end them when you need to or want to gives them the ability to do some decent AoE damage, Cause conditions, all while having some healing and energy management thru mysticism.

I think that might clarify what you were missing...but maybe not :fortuneteller:

Artemis Shadowhawk
28-08-2006, 21:10
I was under the impression that the spike was simultaneous. That you stacked four enchantments that all deal damage when they end, and then ended them all at once to completely synchronize the spike.

But you're saying that instead they just cast one after another due to the common 3/4th casting time dealing the initial damage and stacking enchantments, and then spike with conditions and remove hexes, conditions, and gain health and energy. And thus creating a quasi-rise-and-repeat cycle.

However, wouldn't this be pretty easy to interrupt with a little energy drain to prevent the intial high-energy spike? Also, conditions have always been able to remove using martyr and purge. With a spike of them, I'd assume it'd be even easier as they are all applied at once.

I understand that the build has great self-healing and energy management and synergizes very nicely, but I can't understand how it could be so menacingly powerful to an organized group with one or two mesmers and martyr?

critical vengeance
28-08-2006, 22:57
If they were to stack their enchants before spiking gaze of contempt would be nice :P

ZylosE
04-09-2006, 17:34
dont know if its been posted of not, but i think the PERFECT nerf for this build is........CoP- (50% chance to fail with divine favour 5 or less) :brainiac:

Viti Ligo
05-09-2006, 11:33
Havenät try Dervish class at all - I wasn't too interested to try it out at Preview Beta event. Later it seems that dervish has some... potential. But except self heal dervish skill Mystic Sandstorm ( Spell. Lose all Enchantments. For each Enchantment removed in this way, all nearby foes are struck for 10...30 earth damage (maximum 130 damage). ) seems even more powerfull than CoP does ?

Nazpharoz
05-09-2006, 13:55
hmmm....
Defile Enchantment + Desecrate Enchantment anyone? :huh:
this class makes foc-spikers better then it already is. :grin:


ok, back to topic.
i think they will change cop to a status that it can be only used by monk primes.
but will think more and more earth dervish will arise (spelling). just like mentioned before, mystic sandstorm will deliver a lot off more damage then cop, but healing yourself and getting rid off hexes and conditions will be a bit harder.

Nekretaal
05-09-2006, 15:43
hmmm....
Defile Enchantment + Desecrate Enchantment anyone? :huh:
this class makes foc-spikers better then it already is. :grin: .

We tried that in the preview, but it didnt work.

The resaon it didnt work is because (1) the self heal of dervishes increased their natural health to 670+ (assuming no superior runes which few had that weekend), or even 700+ with the morale boosts that you see in HA. and (2)contemplation of purity casts in .25. Combined with the dervish's self-heal enchantment, the contemplation of purity healed the dervish to full health in the middle of the spike. This is a self-inuse that was basically unstoppable.

This also says nothing about the power of a reversal of fortune to double-heal.

Moreover you couldnt time the descrate spike to hit in the middle of a cast because desecrate enchantments is too slow, and you could time the spike to hit AFTER the Dervish used contemplation of purity, because if your spiker wasnt dead, your descrate enchantments doesnt do crap damage without enchantments... and your feast of corruption doesnt get the bonus damage without hexes on the target (removed by contemplation of purity).

dark3
15-09-2006, 15:31
dont know if its been posted of not, but i think the PERFECT nerf for this build is........CoP- (50% chance to fail with divine favour 5 or less) :brainiac:



Exactly ^^
Hope that ANet follows ur suggestion :P

critical vengeance
15-09-2006, 15:53
im surprised it wasn't changed in the skill update :o

Yozhura
17-09-2006, 14:02
Havenät try Dervish class at all - I wasn't too interested to try it out at Preview Beta event. Later it seems that dervish has some... potential. But except self heal dervish skill Mystic Sandstorm ( Spell. Lose all Enchantments. For each Enchantment removed in this way, all nearby foes are struck for 10...30 earth damage (maximum 130 damage). ) seems even more powerfull than CoP does ?
I used Mystic Sandstorm during the PvP Beta. A nice 200+ damage spike on a 60AL target if you use the right skills.
http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw046qg2.jpg

critical vengeance
17-09-2006, 15:25
yeah u nless they plan to keep this concept the same... there is a lot of skills that need to be redesigned, since yeah mystic sandstorm and just add more damage.. although CoP is more for self preservation if the enemy is dead you don't need it

Chemical Ali
19-09-2006, 21:20
Nightfall free preview event...
Anet: "We nerfed it see?! pls buy nightfall!"

Princess eirika
19-09-2006, 23:54
Nightfall free preview event...
Anet: "We nerfed it see?! pls buy nightfall!"

Ummm...yeah. Even though it wouldn't happen, (and If it did, for shame.) Someone who doesn't buy a game because a few things don't work out just right or whine about something too much needs to grow up.

It's a preview event, for more then one reason. To test things to prevent it from being overpowered during the acutal release...

RabidCoqui
20-09-2006, 02:01
dont know if its been posted of not, but i think the PERFECT nerf for this build is........CoP- (50% chance to fail with divine favour 5 or less) :brainiac:

Except that there was at least one other skill that you could use instead of CoP... Signet of Piety. I actually used this instead of CoP. That way when I got in trouble I could just cast enchantment, use signet and repeat immediately. I'm probably the only one who prefered this... it annoyed the heck out of my opponents since they couldn't beat me if they couldn't interrupt/knock down/etc. :tongue:

Erasculio
21-09-2006, 07:03
CoP has been nerfed for the event :smiley: Maybe we'll see more variety within the Dervish builds now.

Erasculio

BunnyLord
21-09-2006, 10:36
I'm so happy that they 'Fixed it' Monks can pretty much use it effectively with high divine favor. Just happy! :grin:

Viti Ligo
21-09-2006, 12:39
CoP isn't the only problem against dervish:

Mirage Cloak Enchantment Spell. For 10 seconds, you have a 50% chance to "evade" incoming attacks. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes are struck for 15...63 earth damage.

Dust Cloak Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes are struck for 40...88 earth damage. For 30 seconds, your attacks deal earth damage. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes are Blinded for 1...4 seconds.

Aura of Thorns Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes are Crippled for 4...9 seconds. For 30 seconds, this Enchantment does nothing. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes begin Bleeding for 5...13 seconds.

Vital Boon Enchantment Spell. For 20 seconds, you have +40...88 maximum Health. When this Enchantment ends, you are healed for 75...135 Health.

Mystic Sandstorm Spell. Lose all Enchantments. For each Enchantment removed in this way, all nearby foes are struck for 10...30 earth damage (maximum 130 damage).

Seems to me that surrounding foes have hard time when dervish loaded with above enchantments hit Mystic Sandstorm....

Avanti
21-09-2006, 13:05
It's kind of sad for the other professions other than Monks & Dervishes that uses CoP in their build as defense. My AotL Toucher, for example, has that so I could get out of nasty situations. Oh well.

Erasculio
21-09-2006, 14:46
Seems to me that surrounding foes have hard time when dervish loaded with above enchantments hit Mystic Sandstorm....
Snare, Backfire, etc...The problem with CoP was not only that it removes all enchantments, but also that it removed all counters to the Dervishes. Now they still have a very powerful PBAoE attack - just don't let they use it.

(Of course, enchantment removal doesn't work against them, but there are many other skills to choose from. I think Shatter Enchantment could also be used as a finishing attack.)

Erasculio

Yozhura
21-09-2006, 15:59
Snare, Backfire, etc...The problem with CoP was not only that it removes all enchantments, but also that it removed all counters to the Dervishes.
Energy Draining and kiting also works. I used a build similar to the skills Viti listed (see my post on page 23) and I didn't have enough energy to stack all the enchantments and use Mystic Sandstorm if I didn't wait for some energy regen. And if someone runs away, you won't be able to hit them with Mystic Sandstorm.

killerstick
21-09-2006, 22:23
don't forget well of the profane.
If they can't be the target of an enchantment they can't spike.
I believe there are other skills that don't allow a foe to be the target of enchants but I'll have to look through them.

critical vengeance
21-09-2006, 23:56
well cop did get a slight nerf already if you look at the update page

Harshateja
22-09-2006, 00:13
Slight...only slight for monks. It totaly wrecked the skill for non-monk primaries - thats a good thing by the way. :laugh: Thats what everyone wanted, a nerf to CoP that didn't nerf its power with monks.

ShinyOne
22-09-2006, 08:51
don't forget well of the profane.
If they can't be the target of an enchantment they can't spike.
I believe there are other skills that don't allow a foe to be the target of enchants but I'll have to look through them.

you're thinking of shadow shroud. that's it, AFAIK. however, you can get a similar effect through blackout and shroud of silence...

Khaunshar
22-09-2006, 23:54
Actually, Assassins can be total dervish shutdowns/killers.

Shattering Assault is simply insane vs. dervishes, most monks and wammos.
Shadow Shroud (of Oni fame) can shut down any melee-based dervish completely (since scythe DPS is about dagger DPS without skills)

I believe that is intentional, to bring a revival of Assassins as a counter-class in PvP, something I believe would be very nice :)

All in all the sheer existance of dervish and paragon might throw around the metagame to such an extent that cop-spike isnt needed to feel the influence of the new classes.