PDA

View Full Version : Ballancing the Spear



Kakashi Chan
31-07-2006, 08:56
Well my experiences playing with and against paragons say that they need some serious ballancing. Not as much os the ridiculous dervish garbage, but there are still some points of the paragon to discuss.

The arc on the spear toss is considerably too low, considering what rangers have to deal with.
This point would be a minor issue save the fact that the Paragon base weapon damage is only 1 point below that of a bow, the base attack speed is too fast, and the spear attacks have high unconditional damage, greather than that available in bow most attacks but just as spammable. Add to that the fact that paragon's get to hold a shield... these factors combined make them overpowered, and a couple of them need to change IMO.

Any comments, additions, arguements?

Hatachi
31-07-2006, 09:01
Everyone I played with this weekend thought it could use a slight boost.

Archegonia Mnium
31-07-2006, 09:42
I don't know what countermeasures are in play, but those aside - yes, I agree with you 100%. On paper, the paragon's spears look amazing. However, in practice, they just didn't seem all that powerful. Maybe their skills don't add as much damage?

Malchiel
31-07-2006, 09:50
The problems are the ra/paragon with TF spamming spears of lightning and causing deepwound which's pretty serious.

They're pretty much warriors with range.

Paragon itself isn't that impressive.

And yeah can we get a nerf on expertise already? It's got to be the most broken primary attr out there and it's been abused far too much. They need to halve or more the energy benefit when not using ranger line of skills.

ShadowCeiling
31-07-2006, 09:56
the problem with nerfing expertise in the end is that it will screw with the ranger in a bad way... cause they only have 3 regen and like at most 32-37 energy. with a nerfed expertise, lots of skills and combos would be useless due to energy inefficiency. now about the paragon and thier spears... yeah the attack speed could use a little tweak, maybe make it like longbow speed. it's true that the paragon itself is kinda meh, but of thier skills mixed with either warrior or ranger make them the ranged warrior and something I think that can easily overcome this whole Dervish problem everyone seems to be complaining about.

Malchiel
31-07-2006, 10:18
the problem with nerfing expertise in the end is that it will screw with the ranger in a bad way... cause they only have 3 regen and like at most 32-37 energy. with a nerfed expertise, lots of skills and combos would be useless due to energy inefficiency. now about the paragon and thier spears... yeah the attack speed could use a little tweak, maybe make it like longbow speed. it's true that the paragon itself is kinda meh, but of thier skills mixed with either warrior or ranger make them the ranged warrior and something I think that can easily overcome this whole Dervish problem everyone seems to be complaining about.

No if you just nerf the expertise so that it affects only those which aren't ranger skills it won't be a problem.

C'mon I'm tired of seeing thumpers and touchers running around. Thumper while is a more respectable build but should have been in warrior's domain not ranger's same problem with FC Spiker. It's the ele's jobs to throw lightning bolts, not mesmer's. Then there's the touchers. And now we're seeing ranger spearman... Of course then there's the R/A with better armor, and more spammable attacks.

Enough is enough. Expertise should help rangers deal with their ranger skills and costs and not others.

Of course Dervish is the next ranger. Gain energy for using enchant ftw that's just crazy and totally thoughtless.

Not to mention because of expertise ranger is essentially having about 3-9 energy pips when using anything that isn't a spell. Why? Coz expertise directly makes those energy regen much much more efficient.

Tuor Son Of Huor
31-07-2006, 10:29
And yeah can we get a nerf on expertise already? It's got to be the most broken primary attr out there and it's been abused far too much. They need to halve or more the energy benefit when not using ranger line of skills.

OMG dont say this again! its been working for a year, and it doesnt affect all skill types. If youre call for nerfing expertise is because of touch rangers, i suggest you bring scourge healing and heavy degen to counter them.

Malchiel
31-07-2006, 10:44
OMG dont say this again! its been working for a year, and it doesnt affect all skill types. If youre call for nerfing expertise is because of touch rangers, i suggest you bring scourge healing and heavy degen to counter them.

Did I say it affects all skill types? It affects enough of skills that aren't related to rangers as a profession to warrant nerfing.

And no Paragon is pretty weak. However Ra/Pa is a different story. Same old abuse of expertise.

Just nerf the stupid primary attr. already. And there won't be this recurring problem.

And oh one other thing it isn't just about touchers, it's about spear spam, it's about IB spams it's about spamming skills for no energy because they're never designed for rangers to begin with. Hence they're extremely cheap to spam. Spam*** Spamming non-ranger skills are so cheap for rangers they're only 1 e. a pop with expertise. Spamming is the problem. Spam not touching, touching is part of the bigger spamming problem. spam is the keyword.

As for touchers, any hex such as scourge own anything who deals melee dmg, and any ranger, eles and about anything with no remove hex. This point is mute. And why bother with scourge of healing anyways where're you playing? It's a near worthless hex that nobody really carries. I mean c'mon. However Snare and any hex works vs. anything and it isn't limitted to just touchers.

Chaz Rea
31-07-2006, 12:22
I don't think Expertise needs to be nerfed. By going R/P you're sacrificing 16 Spear Mastery, lowering your chance to get a critical hit and lowering your damage overall. It adds diversity to builds - warriors aren't the only people who can use hammers, paragons aren't the only people who can use spears.

You're worried about spam? Bring a counter. Diversion, SS, Empathy, Spirit Shackles, Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Blinding Flash, Blurred Vision, Insidious Parasite, Shadow of Fear, Faintheartedness can all stop it. I've probably missed out quite a few counters in that list. There are so many counters to warriors/rangers/etc out there that many builds will include at least one of them.


Spam*** Spamming non-ranger skills are so cheap for rangers they're only 1 e. a pop with expertise.
I'm sorry, but this is a huge overstatement. You need 13 expertise to get 5 energy skills to only require 2 energy. Sure, you can run that, but keep in mind most of these builds require 12 in the weapon, and several points in Beast Mastery to have an effective pet (incidentaly, killing the pet will stop ferocious strike, lowering the energy regen of the ranger quite well).

You need to learn to adapt, and counter this build. Expertise is a viable option, and shouldn't be nerfed.

Ezra
31-07-2006, 13:04
Expertise is what gives Rangers a place in the Core professions list. They are the most versatile profession in terms of what they can do with their secondaries, and makes them unique when compared to a lot of other fantasy settings that have archer professions.

Longasc
31-07-2006, 14:38
Some meat for the discussion.
Please note that I did not calculate critical hits which makes it look as if swords would outdamage axes with normal attacks, while in truth due to critical hits it is slightly the other way round.

Sword
15-22, 1.33s between Attacks, average 13,9dps

Axes
6-28, 1.33s, 12,8 dps

Hammers
19-35, 1.75s, 15,4 dps

Bows
15-28. 2, 2.4 and 2.7 seconds, different types of Bows
10,75 dps for Shortbow

Scythes
9-41, 1.75s, AoE attack, limit of max 3 targets hit per swing
14,28 dps

Spears
14-27, 1.5s, 13,66 dps


Note that especially Scythes profit a lot from crit hits that I did not include. Also I did not include Daggers, see Shaktiboi's FAQ for an explanation why.

Spears have higher avg dps than a bow. The higher attack speed means also that they will get more crit hits during a battle.


One thing was not taken in account at all: Ranged weapons like Bows and Spears might get an additional delay to their attack rate. They do not fire a second projectile till the one they fired before hit the target or the ground.

As arrows travel fast enough this usually does not matter. Spears also have a low arc and short range so it does not matter too.

Meh, why did I mention this at all.


Spears really pwn bows if you just go for "damage per second" and neglect range and so on. They also seem to beat Swords and Axes plus they are ranged!

I fear my calculation was not good enough, maybe one must include crit hit chances too. But as 27 is quite high I fear this would only switch numbers in favor of the spear.

I also forgot the 15% bonus modifier, did not include bonus due to higher than 12 spear mastery and so on...


I think I should not have started calculating at all, but well... you get the idea, spears are very strong, at least on paper.

Much more precise numbers from shaktiboi, including crit hits and so on:

Hammer Base DPS: 17.4
Axe Base DPS: 15.5
Sword Base DPS: 15.4
Dagger Base DPS: 13.0
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 12.2
Horn Bow Base DPS: 10.1
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 9.8

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=393924

Spears would have: Crit Hit 38. 16% Crit hits assumed.

(14+27)/2 = 20,5
(20,5 * 0.84 + 38 * 0.16) / 1.5 = (17,22 + 6,08) / 1.5 = 23,3 dps

Scythes: Crit Hit 58
(9+41)/2 = 25
(25*0,84 + 58*0,16) / 1.75 = (21+ 9,28) / 1.75 = 17,3 dps

Shaktiboi did not take in account the 15% modifiers either, and we always assume 60 AL targets.

Someone tell me that I made a mistake!! The Spear dps beats a two-handed scythe (!!!).

Can someone please tell me what I did wrong and correct me???????

SuXxorz
31-07-2006, 14:54
dude scythes aren't that strong, that's y when I found out that I ended up using enchants for dmg like 99% of the time rather than my scythe because it was so low, I stopped using scythe and just used enchants instead... (Scythe is only strong when u run, because of that automatic critical or whatever)...

And I gotta say something needs to be done about R/P...Because they are 10x ( yes, alittle exaggerating ) better than primary paragons... The R/P are almost always my first target in RA or TA, because they deal literally 97 dmg (I saw the number come up on screen... I bet it was lucky crits too, because it's not always that high, but R/P still hurt alot!, it's just not AOE) per hit throwing at me and spamming whatever it is... Paragon primaries on the otherhand, can heal themselve, but are fairly weak in dmg output and I can kill them easily with my dervish (when I use a scythe... otherwise with just enchants, I've been in games where they just run, because they run and with the time it takes to activate my skills, I can't hit them...they kill my team and then gang on me last, but that's because my team didn't have as good a setup as them either considering they had a monk...)

Premium
31-07-2006, 15:29
And yeah can we get a nerf on expertise already? It's got to be the most broken primary attr out there

I'm pretty sure mysticism is ahead of expertise by a good few hundred metres, and I don't think that just because you have a valid hatred against touch rangers means that you need to screw expertise over it.

On a side, I hope the remaining paragon skills retain the same style of naming as many of the ones we saw. Once I unlocked a few of them and got bored faction farming in the arenas, I just ended up running around nameless isle with a few others 'shouting' :rolleyes:

Wuzzman
31-07-2006, 15:33
I know what needs balanceing...noobs.
There should be a noob only server so kids like above can stop complaining and noob out.
In that noob only server...anything that does over 200 damage in 1 second is banned...anything that uses 'expertise is baned'...anything that requires knowledge of builds not found in pve should be banned.

Chaz Rea
31-07-2006, 15:41
Longasc, yes, spears do have a higher DPS, but consider this:

A warrior can use strength to increase his DPS, and can consistently deal extra damage from skills due to not requiring energy, only adrenaline.

Spears, on the other hand, require more energy. A primary Paragon therefore can not necessarily spam attacks. A R/P can, but then you only have 12 Spear Mastery, compared to 16 weapon mastery for a character using a weapon from its primary attribute.

Also, more counters are available against spears rather than melee weapons. Spears require line of sight, therefore taking cover behing obstacles can affect the DPS of spears. Also, Paragons have lower armour than warriors, so it is easier to kill them, balancing it slightly.

Finally, the Scythe's DPS does not seem that great because you are assuming that the Dervish is only attacking one target - when you consider that it is possible to do that much damage to three targets at once, it makes more sense.

Therese Fireside
31-07-2006, 15:57
I'd be happy if the spear did 12-35 damage.

Phoebus
31-07-2006, 16:01
(14+27)/2 = 20,5
(20,5 * 0.84 + 38 * 0.16) / 1.5 = (17,22 + 6,08) / 1.5 = 23,3 dps

Scythes: Crit Hit 58
(9+41)/2 = 25
(25*0,84 + 58*0,16) / 1.75 = (21+ 9,28) / 1.75 = 17,3 dps

(17.22 + 6.08) / 1.5 = 15.5

Based on Guild Wikis' 22.9% chance of critical hit at L16 here are DPS calculations:
*1.2 = Customization bonus
*1.15 = 15^50 bonus
*2^(8/40) = extra damage from L16 mastery
*2^(20/40) = extra damage from Critical Hit

Scythes:
(9+41)/2 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2^(8/40) = 39.6 damage per normal hit
41 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2^(28/40) = 91.9 damage per critical hit
39.6 * 0.771 + 91.9 * 0.229 = 51.6 damage per hit
51.6 / 1.75 = 29.5 DPS
51,6 / 1.166 = 44.2 DPS with IAS

Spears:
(14+27)/2 *1.2 * 1.15 * 2^(8/40) = 32.5 damage per normal hit
27 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2^(28/40) = 60.5 damage per critical hit
32.5 * 0.771 + 60.5 * 0.229 = 38.9 damage per hit
38.9 / 1.5 = 25.9 DPS
38.9 / 1.0 = 38.9 DPS with IAS

Hammers:
(19+35)/2 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2^(8/40) = 42.8 damage per normal hit
35 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2^(28/40) = 78.5 damage per critical hit
42.8 * 0.771 + 78.5 * 0.229 = 51.0 damage per hit
51.0 / 1.75 = 29.1 DPS
51.0 / 1.166 = 43.7 DPS with IAS

Axes:
(6+28)/2 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2^(8/40) = 26.95 damage per normal hit
28 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2^(28/40) = 62.8 damage per critical hit
26.95 * 0.771 + 62.8 * 0.229 = 35.16 damage per hit
35.16 / 1.333 = 26.37 DPS
35.16 / 0.889 = 39.56 DPS with IAS


dude scythes aren't that strong, that's y when I found out that I ended up using enchants for dmg like 99% of the time rather than my scythe because it was so low, I stopped using scythe and just used enchants instead... (Scythe is only strong when u run, because of that automatic critical or whatever)...
Scythes are strong, the highest DPS for single target weapon... and they can hit 3 targets.
The problem is Dervish enchants are even more overpowered so people used that instead.

Buddah
31-07-2006, 16:52
Spear toss is pretty flat, but misses more than a Composite Bow. Really dmg range isn't an issue with 1 in 10 missing at close range on moving targets. If they get some distance you'll miss even more.

nino fs
31-07-2006, 17:13
My problem with the spear is not in it's inherent DPS but in some of it's skills. If you take a look at the R/P packhunter build there are 3 spear skills. Now the first two I am fine with the lightning one has no strong advantage over standard ranger bow skills. And I forget the name of the adrenaline one but it was not too bad either. The third skill was stupid. It does +17(or something like that) and has a chance to cause a deep wound for 5 energy. To get +17 with a ranger you need to put down 10 energy and you don't get the chance of deep wound. I can accept having the P spear skills more powerful but that skill is in a whole different class. It is either too cheap or too deadly.

An interesting way to balance the spear would be to make it fly slower than arrows. Keep the low arc to they are easier to hide from but slow down the flight so they are easier to dodge. That was a player would have to be smart to beat a spear P. But I may be biased because I love dodging and had a blast in the dragon festival arena where not dodging = death.

Bobross
31-07-2006, 17:23
you don't need to nerf expertise to limit builds like that, just change recharge times for attacks...an attack skill shouldn't recharge in 2 seconds, unless it is meant to be spammed...if it is, and someone finds a way to spam it, its not the method for energy management thats the problem, its the recharge time....since Paragons can't really spam it anyway it shouldnt bother them much at all.

Still I don't see it as that big a deal. R/Ps tend to be one trick ponies anyway, as are touch rangers, and you can counter them both easily, with fairly common skills (snares for touchers, block/evasion stances for R/Ps - the stance canceling attack requires 8 adrenaline...hardly spammable.

Malchiel
31-07-2006, 17:42
I'm pretty sure mysticism is ahead of expertise by a good few hundred metres, and I don't think that just because you have a valid hatred against touch rangers means that you need to screw expertise over it.

On a side, I hope the remaining paragon skills retain the same style of naming as many of the ones we saw. Once I unlocked a few of them and got bored faction farming in the arenas, I just ended up running around nameless isle with a few others 'shouting' :rolleyes:

I did say: "Of course Dervish is the next ranger. Gain energy for using enchant ftw that's just crazy and totally thoughtless." a few posts back.

There's no question that mysticms is way more broken than expertise. But mysticism isn't here, expertise is.

It's not just touching dude, it's about rangers spamming skills never meant for them. Irrisistable blow, both touches yes, lightning spear, even assassin skills such as temple strike.

In the end it's not the ranger or expertise that suffers, it's the other classes. Do you see hammer warrior anymore? no they're all replaced by bunny thumpers. Touchers is dominating in RA, as for lightning spear, they're even way more dangerous in the hand or rangers than paragon, what about assassin skill: temple strike? Nerfed with longer recharge because it's abused and spammed by rangers.

So let's not nerf expertise this time around either, let's just nerf paragon! That isn't a solution that's just a band aid. Paragon as a class is already weak. They're not that great. They don't need further nerfing.

Jhanto Gun
31-07-2006, 18:14
I did say: "Of course Dervish is the next ranger. Gain energy for using enchant ftw that's just crazy and totally thoughtless." a few posts back.

There's no question that mysticms is way more broken than expertise. But mysticism isn't here, expertise is.

It's not just touching dude, it's about rangers spamming skills never meant for them. Irrisistable blow, both touches yes, lightning spear, even assassin skills such as temple strike.

In the end it's not the ranger or expertise that suffers, it's the other classes. Do you see hammer warrior anymore? no they're all replaced by bunny thumpers. Touchers is dominating in RA, as for lightning spear, they're even way more dangerous in the hand or rangers than paragon, what about assassin skill: temple strike? Nerfed with longer recharge because it's abused and spammed by rangers.

So let's not nerf expertise this time around either, let's just nerf paragon! That isn't a solution that's just a band aid. Paragon as a class is already weak. They're not that great. They don't need further nerfing.

well said. paragon need a boost not nerf specially thier weapon skills. as to expertise, it needs some more clarifications (this goes to other professions skills and spells also. example: vampire gaze should be spell not skill). rangers are good at spamming (from touch rangers to SOL rangers) because of this, without much cost. is this right? nope, there is a problem, and till this day not yet solved. spamming of SOL is another good example of this.

its up to the devs what they gonna do here. if they nerf both new professions real bad (like they did to sins for example), then it will disapoints lot of players, this also goes to rangers expertise problem. time will tell.

JeanDeathwish
31-07-2006, 18:23
I ran my modified Pack Hunter build and easily got 3 Gladiator points with it. The damage output I had was ridiculous. I then wanted to keep a similar damage output once the event ended so I switched to bows and even with 16 Marksmanship instead of 12 Spear Mastery I was still lacking in comparison to the Spears. I suggest that they lower the Spear's damage to something a bit higher than that of the Swords, possibly even the same due to the range advantage. Also, +34 damage on a Mighty Throw spammed every 2 hits with Tigers Fury up was just too good in my books. The Spear attack skills have great +damage for less cost attribute wise and energy wise. I think that they should be toned down a bit.

Longasc
31-07-2006, 18:38
Thanks Phoebus. Your math was much more useful. I just noticed that I forgot to divide by 1.5. ;)

Jhanto Gun
31-07-2006, 18:45
I ran my modified Pack Hunter build and easily got 3 Gladiator points with it. The damage output I had was ridiculous. I then wanted to keep a similar damage output once the event ended so I switched to bows and even with 16 Marksmanship instead of 12 Spear Mastery I was still lacking in comparison to the Spears. I suggest that they lower the Spear's damage to something a bit higher than that of the Swords, possibly even the same due to the range advantage. Also, +34 damage on a Mighty Throw spammed every 2 hits with Tigers Fury up was just too good in my books. The Spear attack skills have great +damage for less cost attribute wise and energy wise. I think that they should be toned down a bit.

mighty throw is awesome isn't? speed and damage, plus paragons (yes, not jsut rangers) could spam it cost 3 adrenalin to use and recharge is reasonable, plus with furry, frenzy or tigers fury, it will do more damage. if any skills will be nerf, this is one of them. interesting part not many paragons took advantage of it (some rangers did though), I did and won so many times (migthy throw build) and not easy to bring down cause of leadership and tactic skills.

again as to spears to be balance or not, I'll leave it the devs what they gonna do here.

ShadowKntSDS
31-07-2006, 18:52
No if you just nerf the expertise so that it affects only those which aren't ranger skills it won't be a problem.

C'mon I'm tired of seeing thumpers and touchers running around. Thumper while is a more respectable build but should have been in warrior's domain not ranger's same problem with FC Spiker. It's the ele's jobs to throw lightning bolts, not mesmer's. Then there's the touchers. And now we're seeing ranger spearman... Of course then there's the R/A with better armor, and more spammable attacks.

I'm glad you don't like mixing classes and/or creativity. Now we can make GW just like every other game with cookie cutter classes that can only be played one way. Too bad Anet is authoring the game and not you. Seems they have a very different vission than only seeing Ele's throw lighning bolts. If you don't like it, go play somethign else. With the PvP character option, there is no reason you can't reroll instanly if a nother primary is more viable.




Enough is enough. Expertise should help rangers deal with their ranger skills and costs and not others.


And energy storage/soul reaping doesn't help any other casters? Strength applies to dagger attacks etc., and critical hits to pretty much any weapon attack last i checked....




Not to mention because of expertise ranger is essentially having about 3-9 energy pips when using anything that isn't a spell. Why? Coz expertise directly makes those energy regen much much more efficient.

And Critical strikes makes every attack skill (even if it uses adrenaline) potentially return energy. The energy return they can get far surpasses 3-9 pips a ranger can get except its real energy. Meanwhile, for the ranger, they still cant use spells or they compeltely lose any advantage expertise has.

Since a paragon's primary focuses on shouts and chants, why would you expect it be the best choice for spear-based DPS character? A/P, D/P, W/P and R/P all seem like better choices if you don't want to be a support role.

Please learn to decouple the weapon from the class.

Skye Marin
31-07-2006, 19:20
This doesn't have much to do with the class or the weapon, as it does have to do with the skills. You can get much more faster, reliable, cheaper, steady damage with a spear than with a bow. This is going to change.

How? I think the recharge times for a few skills are going to be tweaked.

hahnsoo
31-07-2006, 19:51
You also have to add into consideration that Spears allow the use of a shield. A minor point, but *shrugs*. I think that spears need to be rebalanced a bit. Either make them as "slow" as a Shortbow or reduce the damage somewhat.

WingspanTT
31-07-2006, 20:26
I don't think the P needs a boost as much as once P players get organized you will see 2-3 P's in a group owning house. every enemy will be on fire, crippled, begging for mercy while your team is healed by shouts and Echos never end in battle.

There should be a shout called "FOR THE WIN!"

Servant of Kali
31-07-2006, 21:03
example: vampire gaze should be spell not skill

Vamp gaze is a skill, and it makes perfect sense. I dont think the solution is to make every skill a spell, just so that expertise doesnt work on it.


I'm glad you don't like mixing classes and/or creativity. Now we can make GW just like every other game with cookie cutter classes that can only be played one way.

Wow you are so creative. Wow really, how many builds of your own have you invented? Wow, people in GW are so creative, half of them have been playing same build in HA for a yr. Go creativity.

I think you're missing the point. Some of us DONT like having necro do the job of monk better than monk. Some of us dont like assassin do the job of ranger better than ranger, and some of us dont like monk doing the job better than elementalist. It's not about lack of creativity, it's called common sense and roleplaying. If i want to make ranger, there's a reason i wanted to make a ranger. Im not making a ranger so that i can spam offensive spirits at 50% cost (from original 25e). If i want to spam spirits, i will make Ritualist. That's what Rt is for! It has NOTHING to do with creativity.

No one here is against mixing classes. But there's a reason why some class is PRIMARY and some class is SECONDARY. I like the fact the secondary can SUPPLEMENT primary class with it's skill. But i dunnot like the fact that people take ranger to be necros, that people take rangers to be hammer warriors, than people take rangers to spam offensive spirits, that people take rangers to be ritualists, that people take rangers... well sorry, if that's creativity for you, then we obviously differ. I guess creativity in your dictionary would be using an axe to open cans, while my point is that manking invented something else to open cans, and while one certainly can use an axe or chainsaw to open a can, it should not be better than something that was in first place intended to open cans. So, if necro is designed as 'dark, vampire like' class, it does make no sense to be that rangers are better vampires than necros. It's not creativity. It's just lame.


Seems they have a very different vission than only seeing Ele's throw lighning bolts.

And eles throw lightning bolts? Oh im sorry i thought that was mesmer.
Eles are monks now, that's what they usually do. Spam heal party.

Go go creativity. Not. Maybe you should go to elementalist forum once in a while and ask them what they think of eles being monks instead of casting dmg spells. You will see they are as much thrilled as i am.


And energy storage/soul reaping doesn't help any other casters? Strength applies to dagger attacks etc., and critical hits to pretty much any weapon attack last i checked....

It's balanced. How many warriros have you seen using dagger attacks? Probably none, because no energy. How many mesmers have you seen going necros in pvp, just so they have soul reaping? I assume none, because mesmers have fine energy. But Paragon doesnt even have enough energy to spam its own skills, and necromancer does not have enough energy (and less armor for that matter) to spam their own skills as ranger can. Creativity? No, it's called flawed.


And Critical strikes makes every attack skill (even if it uses adrenaline) potentially return energy. The energy return they can get far surpasses 3-9 pips a ranger can get except its real energy.

Yea, i can already imagine people taking paper-armor assassins, then going to melee for 30 sec... hmm right. Critical hits? What for? You're all theory. In practice, you CANT get that much energy from critical hits, because in most cases staying that long in melee ranger means death.


Please learn to decouple the weapon from the class.

I see. So, i assume you would agree then that ranger is imbalanced class, because it has more attribute lines than othres?

Ranger:
Expertise
Marskmanship
Beastmastery
Wilderness Survival
Hammer Mastery
Spear Mastery
Blood Magic
Communing

...so... i wonder, what more ranger attributes are we going to get in Chapter4? Yes this is so fun and creative.

hahnsoo
31-07-2006, 21:12
I thought Vampiric Gaze WAS a spell. It's the Vampiric Touch/Bite skills that are non-spell skills.

On a side note, I doubt that anti-Ranger rants and raves will really be appreciated in the Paragon discussion forum. Back on topic: Spears as a weapon, please?

Kyrion Hellcat
31-07-2006, 21:18
This doesn't have much to do with the class or the weapon, as it does have to do with the skills. You can get much more faster, reliable, cheaper, steady damage with a spear than with a bow. This is going to change.
Indeed. Spears are not overpowered... It's the bow which is underpowered.

Just as some old warrior armors were updated and boosted with the appearance of the new shiny faction armors, I likewise hope to see Bow damage/attack ratio/skills boosted to be able to hold & compete with Spears.

:wink: Dont take me too seriously.

Phoebus
31-07-2006, 21:21
You also have to add into consideration that Spears allow the use of a shield. A minor point, but *shrugs*. I think that spears need to be rebalanced a bit. Either make them as "slow" as a Shortbow or reduce the damage somewhat.
Actually, R/Ps don't use shields, because that would require 9 points into either Command or Motivation. 12 points in Spear Mastery + 9 Point in 'Shield Mastery' = already 75% attribute points spent.


The third skill was stupid. It does +17(or something like that) and has a chance to cause a deep wound for 5 energy. To get +17 with a ranger you need to put down 10 energy and you don't get the chance of deep wound. I can accept having the P spear skills more powerful but that skill is in a whole different class. It is either too cheap or too deadly.
Spear is an adrenaline based weapon, it's balance is based around recharge not energy cost.
Given an attack speed of 1.5s, and Vicious Attack's recharge of 8 seconds, that makes the skill cost between 5.33-6.33 or 8-9 adrenaline (without or with IAS).
For +5...25 damage and 5...13 s Deep Wound IF critical hit.
There's also a 7 adren Spear Skill that does +5...25 damage and 10s Deep Wound if the target is not moving.

On the other hand, Spear of Lightning is currently a 1.33-2.33 or 2-3 adren skill (without and with IAS), so realistically, it's only limiting factor is energy cost, yet the skill has no tactical application it's simply a spammable damage skill.
So, being a spammable damage attack skill in an adrenaline like, either Spear of Lightning should be switched to an adrenaline cost, or it should be changed to something like this:

Spears of Lightning (5e/-/10s) Spear Attack
For 12 seconds your spear attacks deal lightning damage and have 10% armor penetration.

Spears of Flame (5e/-/10s) Spear Attack
For 12 seconds your spear attacks deal +1..5(6) fire damage.

Both treated as preparations.


I then wanted to keep a similar damage output once the event ended so I switched to bows and even with 16 Marksmanship instead of 12 Spear Mastery I was still lacking in comparison to the Spears.
Did you try using Kindle Arrows or some other preparations?


Also, +34 damage on a Mighty Throw spammed every 2 hits with Tigers Fury up was just too good in my books.
Mighty Throw and Unblockable Throw also have twice the activation time, thus when you use them you miss one normal attack. At L12 Spear Mastery normal attacks do approximately 33 damage per hit (crits included), and that's one less adrenaline generated.

tenetke
31-07-2006, 22:19
This whole topic is pretty much bs. You have people running around saying nerf rangers, nerf paragon.

Have you even played a paragon, let me tell you that they do not do that much damage. They may look good on paper but in reality they are outdamaged easily. If you want to nerf something look at the dervish. That is just a stupidly insane build.

ShadowKntSDS
01-08-2006, 00:29
Servant of Kali: Thank you for making personal atacks, wide sweeping statements about my definition of creativity, and assumptions about how i play the game. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.


Back on topic, as paragon's are meant to be a support role, I don't see too much a of a problem with the way that spears are setup. Perhaps toning them down a little for cross class considerations may be a good idea. I agree that its the skills that are more problematic than the base weapon itself however.

Wuzzman
01-08-2006, 03:31
I see I must post my suggestion for the noob only server again...

steelwill
01-08-2006, 05:19
Indeed. Spears are not overpowered... It's the bow which is underpowered.

Just as some old warrior armors were updated and boosted with the appearance of the new shiny faction armors, I likewise hope to see Bow damage/attack ratio/skills boosted to be able to hold & compete with Spears.

:wink: Dont take me too seriously.

I agree, but I doubt we'll see any sort of ranger or bow buff.

Buddah
01-08-2006, 05:29
Actually, R/Ps don't use shields, because that would require 9 points into either Command or Motivation. 12 points in Spear Mastery + 9 Point in 'Shield Mastery' = already 75% attribute points spent.

Trust me when I say they use them. 10 Armor without using an attribute points is just fine for anyone. Then figure in the innate mods on the shield.

MaximumSquid
01-08-2006, 06:11
The adrenaline spike a paragon can pull off is amusing, but generally their damage with spear is very bad.

There energy is better spent on their other skills; especially those that give them energy back.

The pack hunter is pretty vicious, but it's running very differently from what a paragon alone could do.

The base damage isn't too much of a concern, imo

The overall balance is going to be more heavily weighed on what skills are available to all the professions when NightFall goes gold.

I mean i'm pretty well expecting an arrow attack that can cause a deep wound.

That would be enough for me to switch back to bow from spear.

Zaxares
01-08-2006, 08:07
What if the range for spears was lowered to, say, half that of bow-range? Do you guys feel that would go a long way towards balancing spears?

Bozo69PD
01-08-2006, 19:53
Umm which bow? It's already slightly shorter than a short bow and way shorter than a long bow.

Zarfol
01-08-2006, 20:27
The ranger needs expertise because it's skills are too expensive without expertise. Wheee i can use penetrating attack 3 times and I'm done for the rest of the battle.

Spamming skills as a ranger is hurt hard by skills like empathy, diversion, spiteful spirit, etc. I don't really think the ranger is overpowered. Yeah, touch rangers are good in RA and niche farming, other that that, they're somewhat worthless.

I think spears should attack slower, or do less damage, or the bow should do more damage, to keep all the lines in balance. Not all three, just 1 needs to be changed. Or perhaps the paragon's armor should be dropped to 70 like the ranger and have an extra pip of regen (actually the assassin is favored, with armor level of the ranger and an extra free pip of regen, and a energy gaining primary like expertise)

As for bunny thumpers and the such. A warrior with a hammer can take advantage of aftershock, or holy strike etc.... A ranger can take advantage of a cheaper irresistable blow and a pet. I don't think it's unbalanced.

Premium
02-08-2006, 19:04
nvm, seems a bit pointless now

Xunlai Agent
02-08-2006, 19:25
Did I say it affects all skill types? It affects enough of skills that aren't related to rangers as a profession to warrant nerfing.

And no Paragon is pretty weak. However Ra/Pa is a different story. Same old abuse of expertise.

Just nerf the stupid primary attr. already. And there won't be this recurring problem.

And oh one other thing it isn't just about touchers, it's about spear spam, it's about IB spams it's about spamming skills for no energy because they're never designed for rangers to begin with. Hence they're extremely cheap to spam. Spam*** Spamming non-ranger skills are so cheap for rangers they're only 1 e. a pop with expertise. Spamming is the problem. Spam not touching, touching is part of the bigger spamming problem. spam is the keyword.

As for touchers, any hex such as scourge own anything who deals melee dmg, and any ranger, eles and about anything with no remove hex. This point is mute. And why bother with scourge of healing anyways where're you playing? It's a near worthless hex that nobody really carries. I mean c'mon. However Snare and any hex works vs. anything and it isn't limitted to just touchers.
I sincerely hope you are joking, I really do...

SamuraiPhoenix
02-08-2006, 20:42
I don't think they should weaken the spear attacks at all cause if they did then the class might as well be just a healer/support class. You might as well have a wand just like a monk or a rit. I am hopeing that the class will have some good offensive capabilities so that I can play offence.

Zesr Swiftblade
02-08-2006, 21:18
what exactly are the attack speed, range, and damage of the spears?

Puntarunt
02-08-2006, 23:14
Vamp gaze is a skill, and it makes perfect sense. I dont think the solution is to make every skill a spell, just so that expertise doesnt work on it.



Wow you are so creative. Wow really, how many builds of your own have you invented? Wow, people in GW are so creative, half of them have been playing same build in HA for a yr. Go creativity.

I think you're missing the point. Some of us DONT like having necro do the job of monk better than monk. Some of us dont like assassin do the job of ranger better than ranger, and some of us dont like monk doing the job better than elementalist. It's not about lack of creativity, it's called common sense and roleplaying. If i want to make ranger, there's a reason i wanted to make a ranger. Im not making a ranger so that i can spam offens
ive spirits at 50% cost (from original 25e). If i want to spam spirits, i will make Ritualist. That's what Rt is for! It has NOTHING to do with creativity.

No one here is against mixing classes. But there's a reason why some class is PRIMARY and some class is SECONDARY. I like the fact the secondary can SUPPLEMENT primary class with it's skill. But i dunnot like the fact that people take ranger to be necros, that people take rangers to be hammer warriors, than people take rangers to spam offensive spirits, that people take rangers to be ritualists, that people take rangers... well sorry, if that's creativity for you, then we obviously differ. I guess creativity in your dictionary would be using an axe to open cans, while my point is that manking invented something else to open cans, and while one certainly can use an axe or chainsaw to open a can, it should not be better than something that was in first place intended to open cans. So, if necro is designed as 'dark, vampire like' class, it does make no sense to be that rangers are better vampires than necros. It's not creativity. It's just lame.



And eles throw lightning bolts? Oh im sorry i thought that was mesmer.
Eles are monks now, that's what they usually do. Spam heal party.

Go go creativity. Not. Maybe you should go to elementalist forum once in a while and ask them what they think of eles being monks instead of casting dmg spells. You will see they are as much thrilled as i am.



It's balanced. How many warriros have you seen using dagger attacks? Probably none, because no energy. How many mesmers have you seen going necros in pvp, just so they have soul reaping? I assume none, because mesmers have fine energy. But Paragon doesnt even have enough energy to spam its own skills, and necromancer does not have enough energy (and less armor for that matter) to spam their own skills as ranger can. Creativity? No, it's called flawed.



Yea, i can already imagine people taking paper-armor assassins, then going to melee for 30 sec... hmm right. Critical hits? What for? You're all theory. In practice, you CANT get that much energy from critical hits, because in most cases staying that long in melee ranger means death.



I see. So, i assume you would agree then that ranger is imbalanced class, because it has more attribute lines than othres?

Ranger:
Expertise
Marskmanship
Beastmastery
Wilderness Survival
Hammer Mastery
Spear Mastery
Blood Magic
Communing

...so... i wonder, what more ranger attributes are we going to get in Chapter4? Yes this is so fun and creative.

You forgot a few...
Tactics
Scythe
Leadership
Command
Motivation
Smiting
Air
Any no Attribute skill for Elementalist
Domination
Inspiration

I'm a fan of seeing variety in that a Ranger can play a decent Hammer Warrior, or maybe a Warrior playing a Spearman in a W/P...its pretty cool in my opinion. But the trade offs should be balanced enough that doing so makes you miss out on advantages of being a Primary of said class. The advantages gained should ensue large disadvantages or not be nearly so pronounced that the sub-class is played better and with few draw backs then the primary.

When the disadvantages (in a team environment) are easily offset by good support, and the R/W, R/A, R/P, R/N all do better jobs at dealing out damage then they're primary counterparts...you have a problem. Good offense is always better then a good defense, and R/? seems to be part of the equation.

OT: Balancing the Spear...There's nothing wrong with the spear. It has half the range of bows, and I believe it makes perfect sense that the damage be substantial, especially when Paragon's are primarily going to be used for a Supportive role, and probably wont have enough extra skill points to be used as a primary damage dealer. He is closer to the action, At All Times, and has few if any "shadowstep" type skills to help quickly remove him from battle, so his addition of a shield is much appreciated.

His ranged abilities to apply deepwound, IMHO is perfect.
It does two things for us,
1. gives us a ranged way to apply deepwounds, since ranger can't, and doesn't need to since rangers are already so useful in many ways on the field. It makes the Paragon a useful Addition besides of his Shouts.
2. It gives you options for your warriors. No longer will Warriors be "REQUIRED" TO BRING A SKILL TO APPLY DEEPWOUND. They're now free to build more damage related skill bars that don't revolve around said conditions.

Both are good things, they force some variety to the field, and I think its fairly well designed. Whether or not the un-removable shouts/echos/chants are balanced is soon to be seen, cause the Paragon may be so supportive, the enemy will want him dead, and find him a hard to kill target, also a good thing, cause it forces tactical decisions about who needs to die first in the targetting chain.

Malchiel
03-08-2006, 17:32
The ranger needs expertise because it's skills are too expensive without expertise. Wheee i can use penetrating attack 3 times and I'm done for the rest of the battle.

Spamming skills as a ranger is hurt hard by skills like empathy, diversion, spiteful spirit, etc. I don't really think the ranger is overpowered. Yeah, touch rangers are good in RA and niche farming, other that that, they're somewhat worthless.

I think spears should attack slower, or do less damage, or the bow should do more damage, to keep all the lines in balance. Not all three, just 1 needs to be changed. Or perhaps the paragon's armor should be dropped to 70 like the ranger and have an extra pip of regen (actually the assassin is favored, with armor level of the ranger and an extra free pip of regen, and a energy gaining primary like expertise)

As for bunny thumpers and the such. A warrior with a hammer can take advantage of aftershock, or holy strike etc.... A ranger can take advantage of a cheaper irresistable blow and a pet. I don't think it's unbalanced.

hs/as warriors are obselete. I haven't seen one in a long while. In PvP the only warriors there's is shock/evisc

This is the era of bunny thumpers, spear spammers and of course touchers.

Just nerf expertise to 33% discount top, lower the cost of all ranger skills by 40-50% and we're all set to a better world.

Johanna the Red
03-08-2006, 18:51
well sorry, if that's creativity for you, then we obviously differ. I guess creativity in your dictionary would be using an axe to open cans, while my point is that manking invented something else to open cans, and while one certainly can use an axe or chainsaw to open a can, it should not be better than something that was in first place intended to open cans.

All I have to say is... Man invented many things... Sometimes replacing other things... We used stones at first to make weapons and tools... then we discovered wood and copper... so on and so forth...

Need an other example? we went from windmills, to watermills, to steam powered engines, to electricity, to gas... WOW we should nerf some of these... Some of these realy give an unfair advantage of efficiency and quality then others...

As for opening cans... we first had to use a knife... then WWII, they made a cheap blade for opening cans.. THEN someone invented can openers... OMG NERF THE CAN OPENER!!!

As for expertise... I go with fuel once again... Trains use electicity... Cars use gas... planes use jet fule... humans use food, oxygen, and many other various natural resources.... Everyone has an advantage over the other... Just some of use "Homosapians" use our brains more then other parts... Not intending to offend anyone... Cause im sure we all think from the head... and not the other end... Am I right?

NOW back on topic...

I personaly see Paragons as a stepping stone for Anet to expand their classes... We all had the same dissucsions with Assasins on the beta event for factions... LOOK HOW IT TURNED OUT!!!

It fills in its own little niche in the GW universe...

As for my little R/P build, it comprises of:

Spear of Lightning
Wild Toss
Harris Toss
Barbed Spear
Throw Dirt
Apply Poisin
Practiced Stance [E]
Frozen Soil

All skills are self explanitory...

Attributes:
Spearmastary - 11
Expertise - 13 (10 + Mask + Major)
Wilderness Survival - 13 (10 + Sup)

Self explanitory build... condition spamming + damage dealing...

NOW let me tell you how you counter this O so easily...

Empathy, SS, Signet of Midnight, Throw Dirt, Lightning Reflexes, Escape, Whirling Defense, Shield Of Deflection, Spirit of Failure, Distortion, Restore Condition, Mend Ailment, Purge Condition, Antidote Signet, Epidmenic, Killing me... Or any other skill you can think of, that stops that damage output, or anything else u think of... Be creative, and imaginative with what weapons you choose...

I would bring a pen to every fight tho... Always a good weapon of choice ;)

Gordon Michael
05-08-2006, 09:00
Paragons don't have anything that even comes close to Barrage. They're the only weapon type other than staff or wand that doesn't have a single multi-target or area attack. Even hammers have the horrible Crude Swing.

The Anvil
05-08-2006, 09:18
I find it funny that people are begging to get Expertise nerfed because Rangers "are not supposed to" use hammers or other weapons. Did anyone miss the best part of Guild Wars- the ability to make your character as you see fit? Where the only limitations on you are the 8 skill slots and the points you need to spend them on? You guys want to kill perhaps the best aspect of the game because you feel infringed on somehow?

defrule
05-08-2006, 13:00
Expertise isn't the only attribute that affects things from other professions. Look at Fast Casting for example, I can fast cast all my mesmer spells and my secondary spells. Should this happen? Yes, it isn't game breaking and the same applies to expertise.

SuXxorz
05-08-2006, 16:02
I felt the spear could use a boost for "Paragons", but not rangers...During the event, the Paragon's spear just felt really weak... However, I didn't play Paragons very much at all...

A R/P could totally overpower a Paragon using spears... Where as a hammer warrior versus a thumper is more even or a toucher vs a necro(actually necro can win if built a certain way)... That's my problem here, it felt like the spears weren't even meant for Paragons to use, but rather it was for rangers...

Phoebus
05-08-2006, 17:57
Most Paragons were Paragons to try the shouts & chants, not only (if at all) for the spears, so it wasn't a priority to increase their Spear Mastery.
Most players didn't have Superior Spear Mastery unlocked.
The premade builds weren't very good at using spears as they didn't have IAS and weren't using alot of spear skills.

But the R/P was built for Pet/Spear damage.

Bozo69PD
08-08-2006, 21:38
The reason you choose a class is based on
a. armor
b. primary attribute
c. runes

well the reason paragons aren't as great with spears is because their primary attribute (leadership) is for support, their armor is on par with ranger armor, and you don't really need runes for the weapon because of the diminishing returns after 12 points. You are complaining about the rangers but with a paragons adrenaline skills it made warrior primary an option and then you got strength for even more damage with those skills. I was playing a pretty strong W/P with those spears there will be lots of options. The main thing about paragon is its meant to buff and have something to do in between buffs.

Didn't get a chance to try A/P during the event though, I figured it would be much like a A/R barrager.

critical vengeance
13-08-2006, 19:30
I probably won't bother using spears on a paragon if i role one. It just isn't really worth it when you could just use a ranger for more energy managment and overall more damage. I would focus on what the ranger and other classes can't do, use the primary and the runes that go along the different things. If you think of it most other classes wouldn't bother to go paragon secondary if they were a ranger for anything but the damage. So you might as well just use the awesome things the paragon can do.

I mean this class is a servere ground breaker, although i don't like it as much as the dervish it offers many things the ritualist did. Imo primary paragon should say screw spears, screams your lungs off

JeanDeathwish
13-08-2006, 21:53
Actually, R/Ps don't use shields, because that would require 9 points into either Command or Motivation. 12 points in Spear Mastery + 9 Point in 'Shield Mastery' = already 75% attribute points spent.

Did you try using Kindle Arrows or some other preparations?


Mighty Throw and Unblockable Throw also have twice the activation time, thus when you use them you miss one normal attack. At L12 Spear Mastery normal attacks do approximately 33 damage per hit (crits included), and that's one less adrenaline generated.

I was using a shield and it was great even without points in its corresponding attribute line.
Yes, I used a preparation but then I had very limited skill slots. To match my R/Ps damage I had to use at least 3-4 skill slots for bows but with spears, I only needed 2.
With Tigers Fury up it only has a 2 second activation time. That means I can use Mighty Throw 3 times before I "miss" one attack, making a cheap, fast moving ~+23 damage per Mighty Throw if it were regular activation time.

Before the NPE, I assumed spears would have been about half range, but it turned out otherwise. In fact, at half range is what I would assume is the best tactical position for a Paragon to be in. Right in between the front line and the back line, where everyone can hear your shouts.

In my opinion, a good balance to the spear would be to have about half range and a bit slower attack speed (1.75-2.00s), but thats in my opinion, not the developers. Well see what happens.

Lunari
31-08-2006, 10:47
i realy dont mind that the spear goes fast. It might look abit ridiculaus (dont watch the spelling XD) but you attack fast, isnt that what every1 wants??
and the range, hmm, at shorbow range, the whole party is effected, if the warriors and spellcasters dont run arround like idiots. The "within earshot" range for shouts is roughly said, half your arrgo plus ur arrgo. Looking at the fact that you ALLREADY have the whole party in your aggro (mostly of the time:P) your shouts effect everybody.

[Removed Link] <--- the purple ring is within earshot ;)

Auntie I
31-08-2006, 13:14
Lunari, we have restrictions about what sites you can link to here. That is not one of the ones allowed. If you have any questions about whether or not you can link to a site, pm one of the Moderators.

Nekretaal
31-08-2006, 18:50
Spears are pretty dumb... indeed the whole design of the paragon was pretty stupid from what we saw in the pvp preview.

Spears have nothing to do with Chant reaping, had nothing to do with shouts or echos, and were in a line to themselves. Thus it is very realistic to expect that other classes will be able to use spears every bit as good or better than Paragons: why do you need a chant reaping primary to use a spear. Thus a spear user doesnt benefit from his primary class at all: remember when every air-spiker was a mesmer?

The real issue here is that the chant reaping mechanic is a bard-like playstyle that is proven and seen in a lot of other games. Bards can help buff the party or defuff enemies and are effective at it, but usually they coimpliment this utility with healing support. Instead of granting the paragon bard-class substantial healing support, anet as given them armor that they dont need (when was the last time you saw an orders necro care about his armor) and a strong weapon that they dont need. An offensive focused spear line... balanced against sword and Axe and bow just doesnt make sense on a party buffer character.

It is just going to be hard for a player to be mainline offense with ranged deep wound, and yet at the same time focus on maintaining echos on the party. Spears have nothing to do with shouts. Of course a dedicated ranger is going to be better than a shouter. Hell my offensive paragons had trouble getting the req for the shield in there.

And a party buffer character doesnt make sense if it cant protect on a substantial level (not echo mending, a true substantial level... heck "Watch yourself" was almost as good as anything the paragon had for protection)

critical vengeance
31-08-2006, 21:31
Maybe leadership should have some special bonus for spears :P

Phoebus
31-08-2006, 22:23
Spears are pretty dumb... indeed the whole design of the paragon was pretty stupid from what we saw in the pvp preview.
Talk for yourself.


Spears have nothing to do with Chant reaping, had nothing to do with shouts or echos, and were in a line to themselves. Thus it is very realistic to expect that other classes will be able to use spears every bit as good or better than Paragons: why do you need a chant reaping primary to use a spear. Thus a spear user doesnt benefit from his primary class at all:
+4 to Spear Mastery is a major benefit.
It both improve the base Spear DPS (equivalent to Axe DPS), and the Spear skills' power.
Also many chant are powered by adrenaline, so being able to deal good damage while powering up those chants, or getting free/instant chants while chucking spear skill is pretty useful.


remember when every air-spiker was a mesmer?
Fast Casting is a quality boosting attribute, Energy Storage is quantity boosting attribute.
An air spiker's damage/spike won't improve one bit if they increase ES from 0 to 16, but Fast Casting does greatly improve the speed at which they can spike, thus Me/E air spikers are very strong.


The real issue here is that the chant reaping mechanic is a bard-like playstyle that is proven and seen in a lot of other games. Bards can help buff the party or defuff enemies and are effective at it, but usually they coimpliment this utility with healing support. Instead of granting the paragon bard-class substantial healing support
Paragons can have substantial healing support.


, anet as given them armor that they dont need (when was the last time you saw an orders necro care about his armor)
Order spells have full radar range, shouts/chants have aggro bubble range. Bows and spells have a longer range than shouts/chants, so Paragon's armor matters ALOT.


and a strong weapon that they dont need. An offensive focused spear line... balanced against sword and Axe and bow just doesnt make sense on a party buffer character.
If you weren't so narrow minded by expecting every single paragon skill to fit in your little fantasy bard stereotype character, you maybe could understand why a strong offensive line is very needed for the paragon profession.


It is just going to be hard for a player to be mainline offense with ranged deep wound, and yet at the same time focus on maintaining echos on the party. Spears have nothing to do with shouts. Of course a dedicated ranger is going to be better than a shouter. Hell my offensive paragons had trouble getting the req for the shield in there.
R/P need at least high Expertise AND Spear Mastery to be able to compete. Thus R/Ps can only chuck spears or only use shouts, but can't do both.
P/* only needs high Spear Mastery to compete, thus they still have 103 free attribute points to put in other secondary-focus attributes.


And a party buffer character doesnt make sense if it cant protect on a substantial level (not echo mending, a true substantial level... heck "Watch yourself" was almost as good as anything the paragon had for protection)
"They're on Fire!"
For 20 seconds, allies within earshot take 5...41(53)% less damage from foes suffering from Burning.

"Incoming!" (E)
For 4 seconds, all party members within earshot take 5...41(53)% less damage.

Lunari
31-08-2006, 23:02
srry for the link Auntie :) dint knew, but i know now :)

Nekretaal
31-08-2006, 23:43
I will say this: High-offense spears that when an enemy sees R/W they will not know whether they are facing a party buffer like the preview premade, or some sort of "For Great Justice" Adrenaline spiker.

Good spears mean that at least two builds are possible with paragons, instead of the one-diminensional assasins and (sadly) ritualists.

This is a good thing. Unfortunately, the attribute requirements of a good spear thrower are too high for a paragon to benefit from the rest of his attribute points, and the primary attribute does not help spears at all.

We all see how prevalent and demanded non-spirit spamming ritualists are with their useless spawning attribute. And if good dps from spear and high armor is the "cost" of not having any monk-calibur defensive buffs (Guardian, Aegis, for example) on a class whose whole purpose is to buff the team... then you can have the spear back.

JeanDeathwish
01-09-2006, 02:13
And a party buffer character doesnt make sense if it cant protect on a substantial level (not echo mending, a true substantial level... heck "Watch yourself" was almost as good as anything the paragon had for protection)

Who says a party buffer has to protect. A Paragon can protect very well but it also gives great buffs to the offence of the team with skills like Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Guidance, Crippling Anthem, Go for the Eyes!, etc. And that's only from one attribute line from an incomplete list of skills. With a spear, the Paragon can make use of these shouts and chants for himself while also giving their effects to allies. Without a spear, the Paragon would be completely party dependant on the team's physical damage dealers to deliver what he set up.

BTW: A Paragon can maintain good attributes in Leadership and another line while still having (unnecessarily) max spear.
16 Spear
10 Command/Motivation
10 Leadership

Lord Pharoah
01-09-2006, 19:39
Did I say it affects all skill types? It affects enough of skills that aren't related to rangers as a profession to warrant nerfing.

And no Paragon is pretty weak. However Ra/Pa is a different story. Same old abuse of expertise.

Just nerf the stupid primary attr. already. And there won't be this recurring problem.

And oh one other thing it isn't just about touchers, it's about spear spam, it's about IB spams it's about spamming skills for no energy because they're never designed for rangers to begin with. Hence they're extremely cheap to spam. Spam*** Spamming non-ranger skills are so cheap for rangers they're only 1 e. a pop with expertise. Spamming is the problem. Spam not touching, touching is part of the bigger spamming problem. spam is the keyword.

As for touchers, any hex such as scourge own anything who deals melee dmg, and any ranger, eles and about anything with no remove hex. This point is mute. And why bother with scourge of healing anyways where're you playing? It's a near worthless hex that nobody really carries. I mean c'mon. However Snare and any hex works vs. anything and it isn't limitted to just touchers.


:soapbox: LOL thx for high jacking the thread... Expertise is NOT overpowered leave it alone. R/P spamming spears tosses or R/W spamming hammer blows and so what??? The skills aren't as effective thx to the 12 attribute max and the ranger in order to set for these builds is left with little to no self healing or evasive ability turning them into a dmg spammer that is quite easily dealt with. Anybody who cries about a toucher being any sort of problem is a joke you need to get some more pvp exp. As for the R/W, R/P, and R/D types of dmg combos let me say again TWELVE in the attribute max. This means in order for them to be effective they need tigers/bestial fury and the ability to spam, but wait if they that where is the self heal? How do they reduce their dmg intake? They need high BM and 12 in the weapon to be effective leaving only like 10 expertise please friend stop crying this is already balanced plenty.


I don't think Expertise needs to be nerfed. By going R/P you're sacrificing 16 Spear Mastery, lowering your chance to get a critical hit and lowering your damage overall. It adds diversity to builds - warriors aren't the only people who can use hammers, paragons aren't the only people who can use spears.

You're worried about spam? Bring a counter. Diversion, SS, Empathy, Spirit Shackles, Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Blinding Flash, Blurred Vision, Insidious Parasite, Shadow of Fear, Faintheartedness can all stop it. I've probably missed out quite a few counters in that list. There are so many counters to warriors/rangers/etc out there that many builds will include at least one of them.


I'm sorry, but this is a huge overstatement. You need 13 expertise to get 5 energy skills to only require 2 energy. Sure, you can run that, but keep in mind most of these builds require 12 in the weapon, and several points in Beast Mastery to have an effective pet (incidentaly, killing the pet will stop ferocious strike, lowering the energy regen of the ranger quite well).

You need to learn to adapt, and counter this build. Expertise is a viable option, and shouldn't be nerfed.

Thank you well said M8


I think you're missing the point. Some of us DONT like having necro do the job of monk better than monk. Some of us dont like assassin do the job of ranger better than ranger, and some of us dont like monk doing the job better than elementalist. It's not about lack of creativity, it's called common sense and roleplaying. If i want to make ranger, there's a reason i wanted to make a ranger. Im not making a ranger so that i can spam offensive spirits at 50% cost (from original 25e). If i want to spam spirits, i will make Ritualist. That's what Rt is for! It has NOTHING to do with creativity.

No one here is against mixing classes. But there's a reason why some class is PRIMARY and some class is SECONDARY. I like the fact the secondary can SUPPLEMENT primary class with it's skill. But i dunnot like the fact that people take ranger to be necros, that people take rangers to be hammer warriors, than people take rangers to spam offensive spirits, that people take rangers to be ritualists, that people take rangers... well sorry, if that's creativity for you, then we obviously differ. I guess creativity in your dictionary would be using an axe to open cans, while my point is that manking invented something else to open cans, and while one certainly can use an axe or chainsaw to open a can, it should not be better than something that was in first place intended to open cans. So, if necro is designed as 'dark, vampire like' class, it does make no sense to be that rangers are better vampires than necros. It's not creativity. It's just lame.

Sorry but if you use a ranger to be a better vampire than a necro it IS by definition creative LOL. I think you are missing a distinction that needs to be recognized which is; there are 2 parts to this game PVE and PVP. If you want to roll play, ďit's called common sense and roleplaying.Ē please donít expect the PVP side of the game to cater to you. I like RP and wish that GW had a larger RP element but really it has no place in the current types of PVP available. Necros and eles can spam heal party, aegis, extinguish etc more efficiently than a monk itís a part of strategy and build creation. Guess what a Rit can be a much more effective primary healer oh NO! Yes the ranger has a unique primary attribute which makes them uniquely able to clone another classís use of skills. This is balanced by a lower attribute cap. In most cases this is also balanced by making the ranger dependent on others. Letís not forget also rangers just took another nerf with the pet DP which is many cases can hurt this ability to spam skills. If it makes you feel better the ranger is given this awesome ability by the Goddess Melandru herself as a reward for being one with and respectful of nature. Yes ranger is my favorite class for both RP and the use of their primary attribute.


As for the actual thread letís not be so quick to call things overpowered, I have to admit dervish have some major problems. However I think we will fine that this spear issue will resolve itself over time. The Rit was thought overpowered in the beginning of factions and most teams had one but how long did that last? It turned out to be easily counter able. The spear has definite downsides already donít forget mainly not getting hit by it LOL. The use of obstructions just like it stops a ranger spike will stops spears hurting you. Plus a few things that are in most builds already for other reasons distortion, guardian, and aegis to name just 3. I really donít see paragons spamming spear attacks maybe I missed something. Anyway I see a trend I would like to address here. How about when we see something we view as overpowered in the game, instead of immediately asking ANET to swing the Nerf Bat at it, we make threads to brain storm counters 1st. Letís educate the community and encourage adaptability by forcing these ďoverpoweredĒ things to become interesting and exotic but seldom used combos due to the communities overwhelming knowledge of how to counter them. Example: it worked for the touchers :wink:

All around I think paragon a well thought out addition with very little needing to be changed. They deal decent dmg for a mid-line dmg dealer. Sorry I just don't see them going to far beyond that, the DPS is definitely not overwhelming it beats bows but not melee dmg, its right where it should be. They need the high armor as the range of shouts is quite small (as it should be) and the spear range helps to put them near your front lines where they need to be to affect your melee guys. We have here a unique combo of healing, protection, and damage balanced quite well I must say good job ANET. We see a definite rise in the amount of dmg that is going to be common on the front lines and the paragon is the perfect counter to that.

Shadowleaf
12-09-2006, 13:35
I think a huge point that is being missed here is that Rangers are not normally a DPS class. Bows have the lowest DPS of any weapon besides caster weapons...

To get good DPS out of a bow, you need to make it so that it doesn't have such a rediculously slow attack speed... Quick Shot and Needling Shot are here for this.

A Ranger bow spike is extremely powerful though... Did you guys know that you can have a Vampiric Bow and Kindle Arrows will make Conjure Flame work? I forgot the exact numbers, but I think I managed to get it to + 11 from Kindle and +9 from Conjure Flame. That's a total of +25 damage including the life steal. Then you do Dual Shot, Savage Shot, Punishing Shot, Distracting Shot... All that damage lands in a total of 1.5 seconds.

Paragon spikes will be rather weak compared to that or compared to a Warrior doing Eviscerate + Executioner's Strike or Hammer Bash + Crushing Blow.

But the Paragon offers semi-ranged high DPS. I'm sure people will find that the Paragon can keep up a good stream of attacks without Expertise.

Plus, a Paragon has party support skills which will be very valuable to teams in high level PvP, but a Pack Hunter does not have the attribute points to spare for that stuff.

critical vengeance
12-09-2006, 16:40
I think a huge point that is being missed here is that Rangers are not normally a DPS class. Bows have the lowest DPS of any weapon besides caster weapons...

To get good DPS out of a bow, you need to make it so that it doesn't have such a rediculously slow attack speed... Quick Shot and Needling Shot are here for this.

A Ranger bow spike is extremely powerful though... Did you guys know that you can have a Vampiric Bow and Kindle Arrows will make Conjure Flame work? I forgot the exact numbers, but I think I managed to get it to + 11 from Kindle and +9 from Conjure Flame. That's a total of +25 damage including the life steal. Then you do Dual Shot, Savage Shot, Punishing Shot, Distracting Shot... All that damage lands in a total of 1.5 seconds.

Paragon spikes will be rather weak compared to that or compared to a Warrior doing Eviscerate + Executioner's Strike or Hammer Bash + Crushing Blow.

But the Paragon offers semi-ranged high DPS. I'm sure people will find that the Paragon can keep up a good stream of attacks without Expertise.

Plus, a Paragon has party support skills which will be very valuable to teams in high level PvP, but a Pack Hunter does not have the attribute points to spare for that stuff.

that is very true

Nemesiscz
12-09-2006, 21:26
"Then you do Dual Shot, Savage Shot, Punishing Shot, Distracting Shot... All that damage lands in a total of 1.5 seconds."

Thats is very wrong.
After SS or PS or DiS is huge time delay to next shot.
But np, spike need only DuS+PS to work.:grin:

Phoebus
12-09-2006, 21:41
Paragon spikes will be rather weak compared to that or compared to a Warrior doing Eviscerate + Executioner's Strike or Hammer Bash + Crushing Blow.
Blazing Spear (32d + 3s Burning) + Cruel Spear (32d + DW) does more damage than Eviscerate (42d + DW) + Executioner's Strike (42d).

The only real problem with Paragons is the lack their lack Paragon IAS skills, forcing them to rely on secondary (/W or /R) for an IAS skill thus locking them out Shock/Gale.

Shadowleaf
12-09-2006, 22:14
Blazing Spear (32d + 3s Burning) + Cruel Spear (32d + DW) does more damage than Eviscerate (42d + DW) + Executioner's Strike (42d).

The only real problem with Paragons is the lack their lack Paragon IAS skills, forcing them to rely on secondary (/W or /R) for an IAS skill thus locking them out Shock/Gale.

3s Burning takes 3 seconds. That is not as clean as a Warrior spike.

Good point about the IAS though. Then again, since they are ranged, they don't need Gale.

Santax
12-09-2006, 22:44
Spears, overpwoered. Spear Mastery however is a COMPLETELY different story. Think of the skills - Marksmanship skills are what levels the playing field.

critical vengeance
12-09-2006, 23:33
yeah the spear is kind of powerful, espcially since it seems to rely on adrenlin for the most part, and so many warrior skills can take advantage of that

Arctus Redryn
20-09-2006, 04:41
A Ranger bow spike is extremely powerful though... Did you guys know that you can have a Vampiric Bow and Kindle Arrows will make Conjure Flame work? I forgot the exact numbers, but I think I managed to get it to + 11 from Kindle and +9 from Conjure Flame. That's a total of +25 damage including the life steal. Then you do Dual Shot, Savage Shot, Punishing Shot, Distracting Shot... All that damage lands in a total of 1.5 seconds.


Other than that you cannot use three interrupts that quickly, I would use Read the Wind (+10 armor ignoring damage) and Orders for a Ranger spike.

As for a spear spike, what about something like Blazing Spear, Cruel Spear, "Coward!", and Frenzy? A ranged Eviscerate Executioner's with a knock down? You have to time it so you use "Coward!" right before your spear strikes so that you have adrenaline to use for Cruel Spear right after the knock down.

Of course, this requires the foe to be moving.

Phoebus
20-09-2006, 05:25
As for a spear spike, what about something like Blazing Spear, Cruel Spear, "Coward!", and Frenzy? A ranged Eviscerate Executioner's with a knock down? You have to time it so you use "Coward!" right before your spear strikes so that you have adrenaline to use for Cruel Spear right after the knock down.
That's a really nice combo! :)