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Cleritic
02-08-2006, 01:47
Hey all, long time 'viewer, first time poster.

I was wondering, in your professional opinion(s), what you feel the profession most suited to a life of a Philosopher would be in Guild Wars.

Personally, I think it's a toss-up between the caster classes.

Elementalists are always hungry for knowledge
Necromancers/Ritualists commune with the dead and spirit world, definitely exemplifying the metaphysical branch or Philosophy
Mesmers seem like a quasi-acceptable answer, as they are 'mental masters of illusion,' and just seem like the type.
Monks... well, with all that meditating and wandering, you inevitably start asking the questions of life.

So what do you guys think?

Quintus Antonius
02-08-2006, 02:07
I voted other because I feel that each class has its own philosophies.

Simply put, there is no universal philosophy, so it's rather hard to quantify it to something measurable to one group of people. Certainly each group has their own philosophers.

A better question to me would be "Who exemplifies "the Philosopher" for each profession?" Who can forget all those times Little Thom stopped and ponder a situation instead of fighting, and certainly Ritualists like Master Togo have to be credited as philosophers as well as teachers, and then there are people like Lady Althea who were practiced in philosophies of another kind. Those are just a few examples of a few people from a small group of professions.

The Fly
02-08-2006, 02:11
The warrior ofcourse :wink:

Cleritic
02-08-2006, 02:12
I voted other because I feel that each class has its own philosophies.

Simply put, there is no universal philosophy, so it's rather hard to quantify it to something measurable to one group of people. Certainly each group has their own philosophers.

A better question to me would be "Who exemplifies "the Philosopher" for each profession?" Who can forget all those times Little Thom stopped and ponder a situation instead of fighting, and certainly Ritualists like Master Togo have to be credited as philosophers as well as teachers, and then there are people like Lady Althea who were practiced in philosophies of another kind. Those are just a few examples of a few people from a small group of professions.

Sorry, I must've phrased the question poorly. I meant not a philosophy of life, but the philosophers of the metaphysical and epistemological branches, the good old Platos and Socrates. Thales, and Aristotle. You know...

Quintus Antonius
02-08-2006, 02:29
Sorry, I must've phrased the question poorly. I meant not a philosophy of life, but the philosophers of the metaphysical and epistemological branches, the good old Platos and Socrates. Thales, and Aristotle. You know...

Yes I do, I understood what you were asking. That said, I stand by my statement. Warriors have unique philosophies on the afterlife and nature of the soul (both metaphysical). Like I said, there are philosophers in each profession, and I don't feel any profession exemplifies philosophy above any of the others.

Zion Farbow
02-08-2006, 02:40
coodnt agree with quintus anymore :)

critical vengeance
02-08-2006, 02:51
personally i think the dervish or the paragon might be more of a universal type... but i lean toward dervish, they don't have to meditate all the time and yet are almost one with the gods it seems.

lavenbb
02-08-2006, 05:40
personally i think the dervish or the paragon might be more of a universal type... but i lean toward dervish, they don't have to meditate all the time and yet are almost one with the gods it seems.

philosophy does not equal religion :P

Quintus Antonius
02-08-2006, 05:41
philosophy does not equal religion :P

Philosophy is an intergral part of religion though.

Veregre
02-08-2006, 05:46
IMO, i do not believe that the Elementalist is the streotypical philosopher, because they are thristy for knowledge not necessarily for truth or enlightenment (power is not truth), the accepted purpose of philosophy. Nor do i believe it can be the Monks, for they dwell on divinity, not the workings of the mind.

The Ranger, nor the Warrior can be it, for one lusts for war, the other nature. War and nature, although part of Philosohpy, if taken in to strongly, block all other thoughts out of the mind.

This leaves the Necromancer, and the Ritualist. The Necromancer, to achieve true power and "enlightenment" from thier patron, Grenth, must sacrifce the self, and live only though him and his teachings, not much truth there. Tjis leaves the Ritualist, and although they too fall short of the streotype, i believe they come closest to it for they are described as "discousing" with the ancesters, not controlled by them. This leaves more freedom to thier thoughts; more ways to achieve enlightenment.

So, for the people that don't like to read, in the short term i think the Rit. In the long term, none do. Gods don't give out nor allow enlighenment, and ALL the classes have some patron or another.

(sins were not mentioned because i do not like them.:afro: )

lavenbb
02-08-2006, 05:47
Philosophy is an intergral part of religion though.

well, from his post it sounds like he's talking about God worshipping...

That by itself isn't philosophy.. especially since OP specifically said "metaphysical and epistemological branches".

When matters touches that branch, usually God worshipping isn't part of it. (especially since now that the validity in "God the creator" is in question in the GW world.)

Cleritic
02-08-2006, 14:36
Well, religion aside... which class are you most likely to see sitting with their chin resting on their fist asking, "What is the meaning of life? What is the purpose of our existance? Do(es) God(s)/Goddess(es) exist? What is justice? What is virtue? etc..."

When a 'hero' in the GW universe chooses a profession, it's reflective of their true nature, someone who is inclined to help people and is a real pacifist simply would never play a warrior, they would play a monk (or possibly a denial mesmer). Which class(es) reflect the hero populous that seeks wisdom, knowledge, and enlightenment?

Quintus Antonius
02-08-2006, 16:32
Once again, I have to say that there are people in every profession that do that. I can't bring myself to stereotype just one class.

lavenbb
03-08-2006, 00:44
Well, religion aside... which class are you most likely to see sitting with their chin resting on their fist asking, "What is the meaning of life? What is the purpose of our existance? Do(es) God(s)/Goddess(es) exist? What is justice? What is virtue? etc..."

When a 'hero' in the GW universe chooses a profession, it's reflective of their true nature, someone who is inclined to help people and is a real pacifist simply would never play a warrior, they would play a monk (or possibly a denial mesmer). Which class(es) reflect the hero populous that seeks wisdom, knowledge, and enlightenment?


Well, isn't there a "Guardian henchman"?

Don't you think a protective person would enjoy using skills like "Watch Yourselves!" or Protector's Stance? Wammos (GW stereotypes aside), are called Paladins, right?

All 6 of the core classes are built in such a way that no matter what kind of a person you are, there's something in each and every class that you can attach to. This is amplified by the fact that you can also take a secondary profession. No matter what kind of a character you want to play, be it stock characters like paladins, berserkers, sages or priests, or not so stock characters like my own spellsinger (which will be E/P), the 6 core and combinations got it covered.

Zion Farbow
03-08-2006, 00:52
okay it seems this idea might work..

all the 10 proffesions are each differently attached to a specialty skill and a god an so forth..but i think its just the 10 ways of looking at this thing called.."Life"

so there you have it :S not good at explaining at philosphy myself tho..

Cleritic
03-08-2006, 05:23
Well, religion aside... which class are you most likely to see sitting with their chin resting on their fist asking, "What is the meaning of life? What is the purpose of our existance? Do(es) God(s)/Goddess(es) exist? What is justice? What is virtue? etc..."

When a 'hero' in the GW universe chooses a profession, it's reflective of their true nature, someone who is inclined to help people and is a real pacifist simply would never play a warrior, they would play a monk (or possibly a denial mesmer). Which class(es) reflect the hero populous that seeks wisdom, knowledge, and enlightenment?

I reiterate. I somehow cannot picture a tank sitting around pondering deep and meaningful things. This is the stereotype. Unfortunately, stereotypes govern the Western World. No one big and strong will ever be a jockey and no one small and weak will ever be a wrestler. No matter what they want. Someone with glasses will never make it into outerspace, and someone in a wheelchair will never go scuba diving. Some things just don't happen, and I believe


Professions that are central to studying and seeking to improve their knowledge and wisdom are far more likely to be the philosophical type. Take Eve the Necromancer, who was said to spend her twilight hours reading scrolls and tomes. The highly intelligent Cynn, or the Wise Master Togo. Devona and her obsession with killing? Not so much.


/sigh

Stop trying to be so cool and mystique, just pick a response.

Lady Eleni
03-08-2006, 05:40
Well, we can quickly rule out Assassins, as they're simply hired killers... all the example NPCs given don't spend any real time pondering the kill, or the meaning of death.

Elementalists are mostly scientific researchers, as shown very clearly in many Elementalist quests. Scientists tend to not really be philosophical.

Mesmers are a class of nobles, given to manipulating the perceptions of others... not the sort of person you'd see pondering the universe.

Warriors in fantasy, and Guild Wars, tend to have a very simple life philosophy, no matter what it is(and they can widely vary.) They don't waste their training time thinking about God(s) and why they exist.

Rangers are very much in the here and now... while they may show respect for nature and the gods, their focus is on survival and nature, not where these things come from.

Necromancers gain their power from Grenth, or so it is said in the Guild Wars Manuscripts... being forced to bow down to a god in order to gain power isn't conducive to wondering where that God comes from... more like what you can do to gain more power from your sponsor.

Monks are healers, divinely blessed, and closely attuned to the gods, they have a lot of time to think about the how and the why, I would say...

But the Ritualists were around before the Gods granted magic to Tyria, they don't have to bow to anyone or anything in order to use their power, although they do serve Grenth to some extent.
When you don't have to serve someone, you have a lot more time to wonder where they are from, why you exist, and the meaning of the world. Since the Ritualists can also commune with Spirits from the Underworld, I'd say that they, out of all the professions, most suit the philosophical nature.

But just as an FYI, it would be easily possible for any class to be a philosopher, they all have the ability.

Anyways, my vote for Ritualist... anyone else want to weigh in with a reasonable argument instead of a cliche?

Cleritic
03-08-2006, 05:58
I was going to go to sleep, but your reply is bothering me very much. Let me explain the question as you obviously are not comprehending the contextual nature of it.

*Some credits go to www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) & www.wikipedia.org (http://www.wikipedia.org)

phi·los·o·phy
n. pl. phi·los·o·phies

Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.Please see numbers 2, 4, 5, & 6. The remainder are purely generalized "ways-of-life," and has little to do with the educational discipline of it. The scholars of Philosophy, if you will.

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Philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) translates literally from the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) word philosophia as "love of wisdom" or "friend of wisdom" (philo meaning love or friend and sophia wisdom). "What is philosophy?" is itself a philosophical question. This is a clue to the nature of philosophy. The subject matter of philosophy is broad, and, uniquely among the disciplines, includes itself in its scope. Philosophy may be described as fundamental questions about the universe. In the analytic tradition of North America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America) and the UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK), philosophy is somewhat technical. It centres on logic and conceptual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual) analysis. Topics at its centre include the theory of knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge) & ethics, the nature of language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language), and the nature of mind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind).

Enter the distinguisher:

phi·los·o·pher
n.

A student of or specialist in philosophy.
A person who lives and thinks according to a particular philosophy.
A person who is calm and rational under any circumstances."A student of or specialist in philosophy (the 1st definition)" is what I am looking for in your answers to my poll. Number 2 is, as I said, extremely generalized, and does not account for the mutually progressive and enlightening nature of the former. Ultimately, you are trying to help yourself. Number 3 is a toss-up, as either a philosopher according to number 1 or 2 could be calm and rational.


By exclaiming that all professions have the potential to be philosophers, you would not be wrong. However, given the information we do have (and being given any information at all is rare in Philosophy) some classes, specifically casters, would seem more prone to the ambitious path of a great questioner of the cosmos.

To proclaim all professions are equally at will and capacity for the arduous labours of philosophy (See: Nietzsche's later years) would be absurb. Philosophers seek wisdom and knowledge.

wis·dom
n.

The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
Common sense; good judgment: “It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things” (Henry David Thoreau).

<LI type=a>The sum of learning through the ages; knowledge: “In those homely sayings was couched the collective wisdom of generations” (Maya Angelou).
Wise teachings of the ancient sages.
A wise outlook, plan, or course of action.While all 'classes' are capable of such actions and quality, some are at a disadvantage to others. Enter the fighter-caster complex. To increase their power and knowledge (essentially, 'level-up') casters theoretically study and practically apply properties of magic and the sum of their knowledge, effectively increasing their 'mental capacity.' For fighter classes, increasing physical attributes, as opposed to mental, is paramount. One would assume on such a basis that the intelligent caster, one who knows his own self and thirsts for knowledge, would be the clearer choice. THIS IS WHY I HAVE LEFT OUT NON-CASTERS. Enter the poll: there are many types of casters, each are unique is a specific way, in your opinion(s), which most likely embodies the characteristics of a philosopher, as outlined above?

I realize that classes such as Elementalists and Mesmers would be more inclined towards a epistemological field, whereas Monks may look at ethics, and ritualists/necromancers may specialize with the metaphysical. This discrepancy is where the poster makes their decision on what they personally feel is a viable and sensical exemplification of a Philosopher.

Excuse the spelling mistakes, it is 1 am.

Thank you for taking the time to peruse this rather long post, please lighten the mood by reading these:

http://www.as.miami.edu/phi/jokes.htm

Quintus Antonius
03-08-2006, 06:28
In response, I say, look at 7 and 8 in your definition.

I find this all very stereotypical, and I also feel it propagates inequality among professions.

Take the Samurai of Japan for instance. No one can question their philosophical insight, and they were pure warriors in many cases. Buddism has a sect of warrior monks that seek enlightenment through means of physical training. Is it any coincidence that many of these same classes were also the inspiration for the warrior class of Guild Wars? And then to say a warrior can't philosophize. Absurdity. Look at Sun Tzu for instance. Great warrior, great philosopher, and still the authority on tactics to this day.

In fact, some of the most interesting and intriquing philosophies come directly from societies built around what you would call the "warrior class". The Norse, for instance, or the Romans, let's not forget the Greeks and Native Americans as well. All valued strength, but all also valued the philosophies and enlightenments battle could bring.

You need a modern day example? In the United States, the military academies are some of the top schools in the world. Philosophy is an integral part of being a warrior, whether it be how you see the enemy, how you see yourself, or where you think you end up when you die.

I once again stand by my point.

lavenbb
03-08-2006, 06:49
Well, we can quickly rule out Assassins, as they're simply hired killers... all the example NPCs given don't spend any real time pondering the kill, or the meaning of death.


I believe that only describes some assasin in GW.

If you talk to Panaku in divine path, I cannot remember word for word, but he asks you a question: "Do you think what I did has made up for my past?" or something very similar.

He is pondering, and his question is (dare I say) the most philosophical to date in my GW experience. :P

Based on the cultures I am exposed to, I cannot imagine how warriors, or any class for that matter, cannot be philosophical. Samurais, Hermits, Sophiests, you name it. I can totally picture a deep character that ponders about meaning of whatever, for every class combination possible.

What you are looking for is what facet of philsophy is it that you want to associate yourself with, and pick a class with similar philosophy.


I also think the OP's question is problematic.

You're asking for stereotypes, correct?

First, every single person has different stereotypes towards different things, based on their own views and experiences. It looks like some people gave you their stereotypes, and it seems like they're in agreement with each other as well, and that is the ritualist. You don't seem to be satisfied. We also give you our views, but it looks like it's not what you wanted to hear either?

Second, I'm not sure if you're really trying to find out that there is a "philosopher's class" amoung GW, or just a subjective, perceived one.

Third, when matters come to philosophy, don't you think stereotypes, something that we all know aren't philosophical by any means, should be put in the same sentence? Do you want a pudding answer, or are you in it for real?

Quintus Antonius
03-08-2006, 06:53
Also, take the real life class Assassins were based off of, the Ninja. Ninja's had their own form of bushido, and many ninja were just Samurai moonlighting as assassins.

A very philosophical group of people.

Cleritic
03-08-2006, 08:18
In response, I say, look at 7 and 8 in your definition.

I find this all very stereotypical, and I also feel it propagates inequality among professions.

Take the Samurai of Japan for instance. No one can question their philosophical insight, and they were pure warriors in many cases. Buddism has a sect of warrior monks that seek enlightenment through means of physical training. Is it any coincidence that many of these same classes were also the inspiration for the warrior class of Guild Wars? And then to say a warrior can't philosophize. Absurdity. Look at Sun Tzu for instance. Great warrior, great philosopher, and still the authority on tactics to this day.

In fact, some of the most interesting and intriquing philosophies come directly from societies built around what you would call the "warrior class". The Norse, for instance, or the Romans, let's not forget the Greeks and Native Americans as well. All valued strength, but all also valued the philosophies and enlightenments battle could bring.

You need a modern day example? In the United States, the military academies are some of the top schools in the world. Philosophy is an integral part of being a warrior, whether it be how you see the enemy, how you see yourself, or where you think you end up when you die.

I once again stand by my point.

For the purposes of this thread, I am excluded 7,8 from the definitions. I mentioned this. I am not propagating inequality between classes. This is a poll. Polls have winners and losers. Sorry to disappoint.

As for the warrior philosophy: You do not know what I am trying to explain to you despite the numerous attempts I have made and this will be the last. NO, and I mean ZERO, warriors have ever come up with Philosophies of life akin to the education discipline side of Philosophy, for example the Platonic forms. You are mistaking, severly mistaking I may add, Philosophy for Psychology, as many great warriors were great psychologists (hence the term know your enemy). Warlike societies and the influences of war create a very complex, however narrow minded philosophy on life. ON LIFE. You must digress from this irrelevant definition of philosophy you have in your head to productively carry on conversation or I will end it. I am not flaming, insulting or attacking you in any way. I asked you to exclude definitions 7 and 8 as I feel they have little to no bearing in this matter - a matter examining and debating philosphical tendencies and capacities within CASTER-type professions, for as we see mirrored in the real world, Warrior classes are something completely different (Oooo maybe that's why they're not in the poll options!)

Cleritic
03-08-2006, 08:21
Also, take the real life class Assassins were based off of, the Ninja. Ninja's had their own form of bushido, and many ninja were just Samurai moonlighting as assassins.

A very philosophical group of people.

I would hardly call the Shinobi of Feudal Japan enraptured with the rigors of metaphysics, logic, ethics, and epistemology. They, as stated above, had a warrior's outlook on life, a warrior's mindset, and a warrior's Philosophy*

*This is your definition of philosophy, as I see it, the "way of life," which is not what this thread was intended for, nor was it intended for this debate. A mere comparison between caster tendencies due to the nature of their studies.

Cleritic
03-08-2006, 08:25
I believe that only describes some assasin in GW.

If you talk to Panaku in divine path, I cannot remember word for word, but he asks you a question: "Do you think what I did has made up for my past?" or something very similar.

He is pondering, and his question is (dare I say) the most philosophical to date in my GW experience. :P

Based on the cultures I am exposed to, I cannot imagine how warriors, or any class for that matter, cannot be philosophical. Samurais, Hermits, Sophiests, you name it. I can totally picture a deep character that ponders about meaning of whatever, for every class combination possible.

What you are looking for is what facet of philsophy is it that you want to associate yourself with, and pick a class with similar philosophy.


I also think the OP's question is problematic.

You're asking for stereotypes, correct?

First, every single person has different stereotypes towards different things, based on their own views and experiences. It looks like some people gave you their stereotypes, and it seems like they're in agreement with each other as well, and that is the ritualist. You don't seem to be satisfied. We also give you our views, but it looks like it's not what you wanted to hear either?

Second, I'm not sure if you're really trying to find out that there is a "philosopher's class" amoung GW, or just a subjective, perceived one.

Third, when matters come to philosophy, don't you think stereotypes, something that we all know aren't philosophical by any means, should be put in the same sentence? Do you want a pudding answer, or are you in it for real?

Yes, of course I'm looking for "stereotypes," if that's what you want to call it. Yes, everyone has different views on stereotypes. The point of the poll is to observe how different people distinguish the classes and identify them with their respective stereotypical persona. Your comment is redundant, as are most of the replies. Unfortunately, this was not the outcome one would have expected, as many people cannot answer the simplest of questions. Ironically, the question is not meant to be "deep," but the total opposite. For philosophical purposes of course.

lavenbb
03-08-2006, 10:19
Yes, of course I'm looking for "stereotypes," if that's what you want to call it. Yes, everyone has different views on stereotypes. The point of the poll is to observe how different people distinguish the classes and identify them with their respective stereotypical persona. Your comment is redundant, as are most of the replies. Unfortunately, this was not the outcome one would have expected, as many people cannot answer the simplest of questions. Ironically, the question is not meant to be "deep," but the total opposite. For philosophical purposes of course.

Thanks for the clarification. You got your answer, it's the ritualist. Case closed.

Quintus Antonius
03-08-2006, 16:33
Well, since the OP has no intentions of entertaining anyone's ideas except his own, and has already broken the GWO rules against flaming (just because you say you aren't doesn't mean you aren't), triple posting, rather than using the edit button and the Lore Forum rules for posting, I'm just going to close this thread before I'm forced to start handing out bans.

Discussion seems to not be welcome here, so I see no reason to let it continue. If you have a problem with my decision, feel free to PM me or go directly to snowkissed.

:closed: