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p0rn
03-08-2006, 04:46
Now my idea might not entirely fix the problem, but it might be a step in the right direction(or a horrible direction, who knows without seeing it in game, right?) Here is the jist of my idea:

Right now the major problem is that Mysticism is an awsome self heal and energy management tool especially when used with CoP, and considering that it's a passive ability, thats pretty insane. I think the main problem is that all of it's benefits happen when enchantments end, because right now there is little or no reason at all to keep your Dervish enchanted so you might as well just dump them all at once with CoP.

My idea is to keeping the self healing aspect of Mysticism when enchantments end. But instead of giving energy as well when an enchatment ends, I thought it might work out better if the Dervish recieved a bonus in energy regneration during the effects of enchantment. So, for every enchantment on them the Dervish gets an energy pip, starting with a max pip of 1 and increase it by 1 every 4 levels. So at level 1, the Dervish would only have one extra pip of energy for 1 or more enchantments on them, at level 4 they would get two extra pips of energy for every 2 or more enchantments on them, and so on and so on. At 16 they could have a total bonus of 5 energy pips while they maintain 5 or more enchantments on them. Now while that sounds like alot of energy regen(and it is) very few would dedicate 5 slots on their skill bar for just enchantments. They only way they would be able to get those 5 pips would be if their teammates were to cast enchantments on them as well, which would be an interesting team dynamic.

The main reason why I think this is a good idea because I believe it adds another layer of strategy to the Dervish enchanment mechanic. If they need health, they end their enchantments, if they need energy, they keep them up. This way enchatment removals, why not being totally bad for the dervish, would still deprive them of energy as opposed to how it is now and being totally beneficial for them.

Well, there's my idea. I know I don't need to tell you guys, but please pick it apart and add your own modifications to the idea. It is by no means perfect but I think it would help with some of the problems there were presented over the weekend by the Dervish.

-p0rn

katya
03-08-2006, 04:50
It would get interesting for maintained enchantments; which is where my worry nobbin starts tingling. You'd effectively have a zero cost effect, barring the opportunity cost of having the energy regen.

Edit:
Of course, rereading what I wrote it's barely recognisable as English. Azure Eyes said it in a much more comprehensible manner!

Azure Eyes
03-08-2006, 04:53
The main problem with this is dervs could automatically maintain 3 enchants on themselves without losing energy. So they could keep retribution, balths spirits, and watchful spirit with no real drain on them. So thats 2 regen +energy when hit and returing 33% of the damage done to them. So this might actually be more powerful.

p0rn
03-08-2006, 04:58
Well, they would only get the energy pip for having the enchantments on themselves and not other teammates, just how the energy regain is now. So casting those skills would still open them up for enchantment removal. However I didn't think of the possibility of the dervish enchanting himselves so he/she could spend the energy pips to maintain certain monk enchantments like that.

EDIT: Plus with the nature of many of the Dervish's abilities of removing their own enchantments, it would be hard to maintain those skills unless your build was solely dedicated to keeping them up... but then you would miss on the self heal aspect(exept for watchful spirit) and pretty much be useless offensively, which mainly what I think ANet intends for the Dervish.

Azrael STX
03-08-2006, 06:05
Well, from a runner's point of view (as I always like to look at things), this would be great. I mean, D/Mo would be so much fun to run around with. Throw in Avatar of Balthazar and you're golden. I'd have to drop into RA and terrorize them with my elite energy regen, considering all the maintained enchantments I'd have on myself.

Whenever I consider a solution to a problem, I like to think of what the original intent of the problematic item was, and try to come up with a solution that stays true to that intent.

Here, in Mysticism, the intent was obvious - reward the Dervish for using their enchantments properly, giving them health and energy periodically for doing so. However, CoP has been used to abuse this intention, removing all the enchantments at the same time for a huge health and energy boost. The solution, taking both these facts into account, is simple - change Mysticism so that it only supplies the health/energy bonus for an enchantment ending if at least one additional enchantment is still on the Dervish in question. This would mean that CoP would trigger all the enchantment effects still, but as they are all removed simultaneously, it would not trigger any kind of bonus for the Dervish. In addition, it would still reward the Dervish who was using their skills properly and having their enchantments end periodically as they are supposed to.

Just a thought.

katya
03-08-2006, 06:15
The solution, taking both these facts into account, is simple - change Mysticism so that it only supplies the health/energy bonus for an enchantment ending if at least one additional enchantment is still on the Dervish in question.

I like your way of approaching the problem with it's intent taken into account as well and that idea is a very interesting suggestion. What possible drawbacks do you see with it?

p0rn
03-08-2006, 06:21
Not a bad idea Azrael, CoP would still be useful, but not right out murder. It might slightly deminish the usefulness of the "end all enchantment" spells from the Dervish skill lines, such as Mystic Sandstorm, but this could be counter acted by modifying those few skills as opposed to radically changing skills for other classes already in the game.

Azure Eyes
03-08-2006, 07:25
You could just change cop so that it only removes "monk" enchantments. This way dervs cant use it (it is a divine favor skill) but it doesnt affect monks much. Maybe mantra of recall user get slightly ticked but it doesnt matter that much that you have to wait and remove one less negative effect.

Azrael STX
03-08-2006, 07:55
I really dislike the above suggestion, personally. I have a build which requires my Mo/N to be able to remove her necro enchantments from herself with CoP when she needs to. In fact, CoP is the most vital skill in her build. If this was changed as such, one of my characters would be terribly crippled, and I don't believe the current professions should have to suffer due to the addition of a new one, especially when there are other, more viable solutions.

Almas Darksoul
03-08-2006, 11:20
In the preview weekend, it was possible to spam the damage enchantments as much (if not more) than with a CoP build by using a build based on the elite Arcane Zeal - whenever a spell is cast you gain 1 energy per enchantment on you (max 1-7). This build also had the advantage of freedom of secondary, which could be used for holding skills (HA) or team support skills like Blood Rit etc.

BunnyLord
03-08-2006, 12:03
You could just change cop so that it only removes "monk" enchantments.

Well what about Mantra of Recall? Or some ambitious monks that would love to try to use earth/wind prayers even though they don't have the benefits of Mysticism.

I like the idea of just giving COP 100% failure if you have divine favor less than 4 this way monks can still use other enchants for COP like MoR. Dervish wont be able to abuse and monks can still use it effectively. Don't punish the monks for the abusive dervish users, punish the dervish.

Akirai Annuvil
03-08-2006, 16:56
I thought of a fix for Mysticism too, which was too change the amount that is received. Now you gain a fixed amount which makes it very easy to abuse (if you gain 6 energy standard it's very effective yto combine it with RoF. The same goes when you gain 4 or 3 energy per RoF because with their 4 pips they'll regen their energy back + a little bit more in that amount of time).

So I figured you could base it off of percentages instead like with Expertise. I was thinking 40% of the energy cost to cast returned at the end of enchantment with rank 12 mysticism. You couldn't abuse the smaller spells in that case, nor would it mean that it's a meaningless bonus if 25-energy enchantments were added to the game.

Another thing I would like to see corrected is the huge amount of holy damage, inflicted in so short a time. Personally I think either both sources should be turned to fire which has a certain logic to it regarding the names (Heart of Holy FLAME!!! & Balthazar was the god of war and FIRE) however I'd be happy if only of them was changed and the others cooldown heightened to at least 10 seconds possibly 12.

I think that would solve most problems :) But i like your idea too even though it's abit easy to abuse, maybe you should lessen it to not work with maintained enchantments. Then that could be a possibility, but the only real problem I see is that some casters (Geomancers using EoE and Earth Attunement, Prot monks) would start using Dervishes instead simply for more efficient energy management, but that doesn't seem to big a deal to me (*thinks of Ranger/assassins*). overall good idea :)

critical vengeance
03-08-2006, 18:15
I thought of a fix for Mysticism too, which was too change the amount that is received. Now you gain a fixed amount which makes it very easy to abuse (if you gain 6 energy standard it's very effective yto combine it with RoF. The same goes when you gain 4 or 3 energy per RoF because with their 4 pips they'll regen their energy back + a little bit more in that amount of time).

So I figured you could base it off of percentages instead like with Expertise. I was thinking 40% of the energy cost to cast returned at the end of enchantment with rank 12 mysticism. You couldn't abuse the smaller spells in that case, nor would it mean that it's a meaningless bonus if 25-energy enchantments were added to the game.

Another thing I would like to see corrected is the huge amount of holy damage, inflicted in so short a time. Personally I think either both sources should be turned to fire which has a certain logic to it regarding the names (Heart of Holy FLAME!!! & Balthazar was the god of war and FIRE) however I'd be happy if only of them was changed and the others cooldown heightened to at least 10 seconds possibly 12.

I think that would solve most problems :) But i like your idea too even though it's abit easy to abuse, maybe you should lessen it to not work with maintained enchantments. Then that could be a possibility, but the only real problem I see is that some casters (Geomancers using EoE and Earth Attunement, Prot monks) would start using Dervishes instead simply for more efficient energy management, but that doesn't seem to big a deal to me (*thinks of Ranger/assassins*). overall good idea :)


problem is all the dervish enchants are pretty much 5 energy... they have a very small total energy pool

alright... well this is an idea, kinda uses some people's and mashes up CoP to not be totally bad for the non-monk


old: Contemplation of Purity
Lose all enchantments. For each one lost, you gain 6-65 health, lose one hex, and lose one condition.

new: Contemplation of Purity
Lose 1 enchantment for each rank in divine favor you remove 1 more enchantment. For each one lost, you gain 0-65 health. In addition you lose one hex, and lose one condition, but you remove 1 more hex and one more condition for every 5 ranks in divine favor.


Ok basically this is buff.. although maybe too much. Bascially with 12 divine favor for each enchant you remove you basically remove 3 hexes and conditions per enchant you remove. The health was sent to 0 at zero divine favor. In addition you only lose 1 enchantment at 0 divine favor.

Don't shoot me if someone had the exact same idea and or you hate it :grin:

Azrael STX
03-08-2006, 20:15
Making it so you have to be monk primary to utilize it effectively through its link to Divine Favor would be acceptable as well. As long as we're not going to cut the legs out from under monks by making them only able to remove enchantments from their primary profession.

Corsaire
03-08-2006, 20:54
OMG, just dawned on me, it's a simpler solution than all these...
Mysticism gains should be capped on a per second basis:

"Each second, if any of your enchantments ended in the last second you gain X energy and X health"

RoF might still need a slightly longer recharge 3 or 4 seconds should do it. CoP could be left alone, but its cost is still out of synch with its effect.

p0rn
03-08-2006, 21:40
"Each second, if any of your enchantments ended in the last second you gain X energy and X health"


I don't really see how this would help with the CoP problem, as it ends all enchantments at the same time so they would have all ended in the same second.
EDIT: Althought I could be misunderstanding what you've meant to say.

Akirai, the percentage idea isn't bad as although most Dervish enchantments are 5 energy, there are still a few that are 10 energy or more, and there are many other profession enchantments that are well over 5 energy. Overall, not a bad idea. Combined with a level 4 or higher Divine Favor fail-safe for CoP I think it would work out nicely.

-p0rn

Corsaire
03-08-2006, 22:10
I don't really see how this would help with the CoP problem, as it ends all enchantments at the same time so they would have all ended in the same second.
EDIT: Althought I could be misunderstanding what you've meant to say.
-p0rn

I think you are misunderstanding. This checks once each second and the maximum gain per second is fixed.

So your Mysticism's at 4 Energy and 32 health.You have 5 enchants up, you CoP. They all happen in the same second and you gain a TOTAL of 4 Energy and 32 Health.

During the PvP preview I'd gain a total of 20 Energy and 160 health.

Bobross
03-08-2006, 23:56
I like the original suggestion, with increasing regen for more enchantments, but I think it should be more simple, and should just be a cap, maybe reduce the initial regen to 2-3 pips, and then with each ench, you get 1 pip.

This is capped based on mysticism level, so:

at 3 mysticism - you get a max 1 pip of bonus regen (1 enchantment)
at 6 mysticism - you get a max 2 pips of bonus regen (2 enchantments)
at 9 mysticism - 3 enchantments
at 13 -4

etc.

That way energy regen would suck normally, but with more enchantments it would go up, it would allow you to maintain enchantments on yourself indefinitely...but so what, your energy regen wouldn't be good enough to do much else, and you'd still be vulnerable to enchantment stripping. The name of the game would be keeping 3-4 enchantments on yourself most of the time, and only removing all the enchantments when your energy was high...if you finished casting all your enchantments and then got them stripped, you'd be at low energy and very vulnerable, but if you had some energy still, you'd be ok.

It would also allow for interesting builds with other secondaries, where long lasting enchantments are used for energy management...

Akirai Annuvil
04-08-2006, 00:50
Quote from: Bobross
I like the original suggestion, with increasing regen for more enchantments, but I think it should be more simple, and should just be a cap, maybe reduce the initial regen to 2-3 pips, and then with each ench, you get 1 pip.

This is capped based on mysticism level, so:

at 3 mysticism - you get a max 1 pip of bonus regen (1 enchantment)
at 6 mysticism - you get a max 2 pips of bonus regen (2 enchantments)
at 9 mysticism - 3 enchantments
at 13 -4

I like the idea as well. But it would still be too powerful with maintained enchantments so I'd bar those. Also I'm against the reducing of the base pips. 3 pips might be survivable, but it won't be very easy especially to those who like to use spells (like my Dervish will :) and it will greatly lessen their efficiency at both enchant-casting and melee-fighting (the latter which is hardly overpowered). Giving them 1 pip of regen per enchant means that it gives them exactly 10 energy IF they allow their enchant to end naturally, while gaining 20 energy over that same period from their natural regeneration (assuming two pips of energy, else 30 energy).

All of his attack skills cost at least 5 energy and those often cost one enchantment as well. Defensive skills with an immediate healing effect often take enchantments as well, while costing energy themselves. These costs can combine quite highly, especially with low energy regen. Imagine a Warrior having to first cast a 10 energy enchantment, hope that it doesn't get removed by feedback which would strip him of all of his energy, then run upto a foe and hit him with normal attacks only either to force his own enchantment away for offensive or defensive gain or have it stripped from him until he has gathered enough energy to cast several cover enchantments. Even then they could all be stripped at the same time forcefully by an opposing necromancer by for example Rend Enchantments with no punishment to him.
The enchantments aren't supposed to be stripped until the Dervish deems it ready; that is the only logical explanation for ANet giving his enchantments the near-unique ability of a nasty after-effect + healing him & returning energy to him. He gains no benefit at all from maintaining them EXCEPT for the ability to sacrifice them when he needs their energy, as they function as hidden energy supplies, and i wouldn't take that aspect away from him, because it makes him tremendously vulnerable to E-Denial. He doens't have adrenaline like the warrior/paragon, nor does he regain energy merely by attacking and a bit of luck like the assassin, nor are the energy costs of his enchantments massively lowered because of his primary attribute; instead they function as a reserve to withheld from e-deniallers. Gaining health from his enchantments won't keep him alive if all his energy has been drained from casting them in the first place and then having them stipped

tarutaru
04-08-2006, 00:58
I still say just re-tool mysticism so that it only triggers when enchantments "naturally" end, either their duration runs out or their effect triggers. If the enchantment is removed in any other way, Mysticism does not trigger. That should do it.

Azrael STX
04-08-2006, 01:51
Wow. I really like the above suggestion. GG Mysticism.

p0rn
04-08-2006, 01:58
I still say just re-tool mysticism so that it only triggers when enchantments "naturally" end, either their duration runs out or their effect triggers. If the enchantment is removed in any other way, Mysticism does not trigger. That should do it.

No offense, but this would totally kill the concept of the Dervish, as they need to dispense their enchantments when they see fit to gain health and energy like Akirai said, but also prevent them from just destroying everyone in the process.

So far the idea I like best besides my own (Bobross, you pretty much rediscribed what I said earlier, which leads me to believe I wasn't very clear :grin: ) is Corsaire's. You're right, I didn't understand you the first time, and now that I do understand it, I like it alot :laugh:

It's simple and elegant, and in my opinion, keeps with the original spirit of the Dervish.

Good show :grin:

-p0rn

katya
04-08-2006, 02:05
Corsaire's is more in-line with other equivalent spells from other professions. Like the Ritualists' Boon of Creation and so forth. It is fairly simple and elegant. Why do I smell a poll in the wind? :wink:

Sapo
04-08-2006, 02:29
what about if they keep mysticism the same but change it so you get the health and energy when you use an enchantment instead of when it ends that way it works the same but it would eliminate the use of CoP

Corsaire
04-08-2006, 07:35
If you got it when you cast an enchantment, then Mysticism would be like Expertise + Divine. It would be stronger in some ways (a single action return, some spells are "free" to cast.) And weaker in others (can't "bank" mana/health for future use.) The class would have to be retooled in various ways.

Also, it would be overpowering if it included when others cast enchantments on you. And losing that would hurt some of the team charm of the class. I can't wait to try a team build with Dervishes and an Orders Necro.

Harshateja
04-08-2006, 08:06
Why not just add a maximum health and energy gain like they did with leadership? Maybe maximum of 20 hp and 1 energy for every 2 ranks of mysticism. That way, they can't gain a more than 160 hp and 8 energy at any one time. Of course, you could easily change the numbers around too if you think its too underpowered.

zweistein
04-08-2006, 14:35
Waht you need to eliminate CoP abuse is to change CoP:

* make number of echants lost linked to divine favor. 1 point of DF = 1 lost enchat. dervishes have lots of skills that make em loose one enchant, so CoP woul be on part with em.

* Give CoP (75%) chance to fail with low or no DF. they could use it, but 'hey, i might be lucky' has no place in PvP

Once you remove on-demand stripping of all enchants (and asociated heal spike), dervishes loose a lot of their power, with no huge primary attribute nerfing...

There are other skills that need similar attention: Ether prodigy (thou, exhaustion kills that)

---

Remember, dervishes were ballanced with removing one echant at time. Guess devs didnt think that anyone would bother CoP when its linked to other primary attribute.

Virtuouschild
04-08-2006, 16:18
Waht you need to eliminate CoP abuse is to change CoP:

* make number of echants lost linked to divine favor. 1 point of DF = 1 lost enchat. dervishes have lots of skills that make em loose one enchant, so CoP woul be on part with em.

* Give CoP (75%) chance to fail with low or no DF. they could use it, but 'hey, i might be lucky' has no place in PvP

Once you remove on-demand stripping of all enchants (and asociated heal spike), dervishes loose a lot of their power, with no huge primary attribute nerfing...

There are other skills that need similar attention: Ether prodigy (thou, exhaustion kills that)

---

Remember, dervishes were ballanced with removing one echant at time. Guess devs didnt think that anyone would bother CoP when its linked to other primary attribute.

I agree. If CoP gives a failure at 75% or so without having Divine Favor it will solve a lot of abusive power over the Dervish.



Why not just add a maximum health and energy gain like they did with leadership? Maybe maximum of 20 hp and 1 energy for every 2 ranks of mysticism. That way, they can't gain a more than 160 hp and 8 energy at any one time. Of course, you could easily change the numbers around too if you think its too underpowered.


That is making over an Elemantalist Primary at a lower level all over again with a mix of Paragon, and what the Dev. was trying to do was give each class their own unique way of gaining energy or using less energy in their own way(Because their skills use up allot of their energy. This is to bring a balance that they need to find ways to gain energy to use their skills as a form of weakness).

i.e
1.) Necros gain after death, but their magic costs for allot.
2.) Eles get the largest scale energy pool but their spells cost allot.
3.)Rangers use expertise and if they don't, their skills will suck up their energy pool like nothing.
4.) Assassins gain through their critical damages, without it their 4 hit combo alone use up all their energy.

Noticed that each one gain energy in their own way or use less. However, Dervish players especially the Pros. that know how to mix classes to make a powerful build, acknowledged the power of CoP(5energy; very cheap, each 10seconds. Which they know very well they can live for 10seconds, and they also know it cleanses them from hexes and conditions while giving them energy and health from their own primary skills; will help them to survive without dying.)



what about if they keep mysticism the same but change it so you get the health and energy when you use an enchantment instead of when it ends that way it works the same but it would eliminate the use of CoP

That would make the problem worse. What you're saying is that if a person spams healing breeze, or anything that has quick enchantment casting will gain health and energy(This is because enchantments are refreshed everytime it's being used). Hence why they placed the enchantment at the end, so that if you spam 'healing breeze' it won't take effect until 'healing breeze' ends.

Corsaire
04-08-2006, 16:27
Waht you need to eliminate CoP abuse is to change CoP:

* make number of echants lost linked to divine favor. 1 point of DF = 1 lost enchat. dervishes have lots of skills that make em loose one enchant, so CoP woul be on part with em.
If you change CoP to scale the number of enchantments removed, then it becomes overpowered for Monks. It costs 5 mana, because losing all enchantments can be a high cost to pay for a monk. Monks will Rune swap like weapon swapping for mana hiding; so, they can control precisiely the number of enchants lost.



Remember, dervishes were ballanced with removing one echant at time.
Did you happen to see a skill called Mystic Sandstorm? They clearly designed/balanced with the possibility of all enchantments being removed at once.

Akirai Annuvil
04-08-2006, 16:46
Quote from: Corsaire
If you change CoP to scale the number of enchantments removed, then it becomes overpowered for Monks. It costs 5 mana, because losing all enchantments can be a high cost to pay for a monk. Monks will Rune swap like weapon swapping for mana hiding; so, they can control precisiely the number of enchants lost.
How does CoP becomes overpowered by limiting what it can do? Maybe I don't understand what your saying but you seem to say that monks would just take lower DF and lose less enchantments or something, which is ridiculous because Monks need DF to make their heals great. The only one who doesn't need it is a bonder and well they're not really that effective in PvP and not overly popular in PvE.

Corsaire
04-08-2006, 17:14
How does CoP becomes overpowered by limiting what it can do? Maybe I don't understand what your saying but you seem to say that monks would just take lower DF and lose less enchantments or something

I am saying that CoP currently costs 5 mana because an uncontrolled loss of all enchantments is a balancing factor. Losing a limited number of enchantments is a benefit. A monk could choose to alter their DF to change the number of enchants lost so they could retain one or two particular enchantments.

Phyrexia
04-08-2006, 17:59
Make myst. gain 1 energy for every 3 levels and maybe consider making it only dervish enchants that trigger Myst. Either or both of these solutions seems to be reasonable in my eyes.

critical vengeance
04-08-2006, 19:01
Change the CoP abuse, don't change the class.

Ghosties
04-08-2006, 20:41
Yeah make mysticism give 1 energy for every 5 lvls of it when an enchant ends and no health... this way its on par with soul reaping spawning power and strength... el oh el

Akirai Annuvil
04-08-2006, 20:57
Quote from: Corsaire
I am saying that CoP currently costs 5 mana because an uncontrolled loss of all enchantments is a balancing factor. Losing a limited number of enchantments is a benefit. A monk could choose to alter their DF to change the number of enchants lost so they could retain one or two particular enchantments.

I don't think that'll be much of a problem. Very few monks have less than 6 points in DF, because else there not efficient. But you do have a point. People could possibly use it that way.


Quote from: Critical Vengeance
Change the CoP abuse, don't change the class.

/sarcasm Yes only change CoP a skill many monks rely on, and leave the class as it is because they cant just get a different skill or spell which removes all enchantments. /sarcasm off
The problem lies in there energy management, if they can't recast there enhcants after theyve been stripped CoP has been pointless since it's left them more vulnerable then before.

critical vengeance
04-08-2006, 21:14
I don't think that'll be much of a problem. Very few monks have less than 6 points in DF, because else there not efficient. But you do have a point. People could possibly use it that way.



/sarcasm Yes only change CoP a skill many monks rely on, and leave the class as it is because they cant just get a different skill or spell which removes all enchantments. /sarcasm off
The problem lies in there energy management, if they can't recast there enhcants after theyve been stripped CoP has been pointless since it's left them more vulnerable then before.

sarcasm is so abused :shocked:

With all this altering they might as well make another profession with all the effort it's going to take.

Everyone screams about the CoP spike, so why not just alter it like many say to remove 1-x enchants or something depending on the divine favor.

If you are a primary monk and don't have a decent amount of divine favor, unless running a specific type of build, usually leaves you lacking. It's a very powerful attribute that is used a lot. Even if you could switch runes you would have to do it quickly and on demand as the speed to use CoP

What people may not think is, "you can switch runes" When do you exactly use CoP? Why does it have such a low cast? Because it's like an "o crap" type of skill. In the time you would need to use it you would not be able to switch runes because chances are then you would be dead and worse off. Right after you change it to use CoP you would then have to change back, the changes are not instant and would just become more of a pain.

Since you cannot just change your attributes to get your points lower that couldn't be abused either really, as there would not be any real point.

So if someone could please explain why changes the CoP to the highly sugested remove x enchantments for each level in divine favor would be such a bad thing, then maybe i'll say gg and agree, but so far i just heard it's going to mess with things, but really it won't.

Akirai Annuvil
04-08-2006, 22:02
Quote from: Critical Vengeance
Everyone screams about the CoP spike, so why not just alter it like many say to remove 1-x enchants or something depending on the divine favor.

Alright maybe you misinterpret the CoP spike. I don't really care whether they change/nerf CoP (even though I've got a monk I don't use MoR (Mantra of Recal) so for me it won't matter). What I care about is the powerful effects which CoP triggers. You see, CoP removes all anchantments. Everyone knows that it wouldn't matter if the skill would only remove 1 enchantment for Dervs so thats the common solution make the amount of enchants lost equal to the DF rank. However then they would just go over to using for example Mystic Sandstorm. It would still force them to lose all their enchantments, regaining their energy and allowing them to cast them anew and that is the real problem because it wasn't intended that they should be able to cast them time and time and time again as soon as their recharge was over. The fact that they remove some hexes and conditions is certainly an annoying side-effect but really could be overcome (prot monks can do the same thing yet no one has any real difficulties with killing them do they?). And since CoP is so crucial in removing them all at once people decide that that is the major problem, while actually they could use several skills, many which aren't in Primary attribute lines and can't be as easily solved (see the aforementioned Mystic Sandstorm). Therefor it's better to fix Mysticism, something which I agree must be done carefully. So everyone tries to find the best way they can :)

And yes I am good at sarcasm abuse ;P

Harshateja
05-08-2006, 03:38
This is somewhat offtopic but I personally feel the whole idea of mysticism puts opponents of a dervish in a catch-22 - damned if you do remove enchantments and damned if you don't.

I think its idea is unique and should be kept but I also feel its the one that deserves the nerf, not the skills. Good, someone thought of a neat combo and now everyone wants it gone. I'm usually against the idea of nerfing skills because once they are there, players expect them to be constant so they can make their own builds without Anet coming in and destroying it.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is keep the skills how they are, just set a cap on mysticism.

SuXxorz
05-08-2006, 04:39
However then they would just go over to using for example Mystic Sandstorm. It would still force them to lose all their enchantments, regaining their energy and allowing them to cast them anew and that is the real problem because it wasn't intended that they should be able to cast them time and time and time again as soon as their recharge was over. The fact that they remove some hexes and conditions is certainly an annoying side-effect but really could be overcome (prot monks can do the same thing yet no one has any real difficulties with killing them do they?). And since CoP is so crucial in removing them all at once people decide that that is the major problem, while actually they could use several skills, many which aren't in Primary attribute lines and can't be as easily solved (see the aforementioned Mystic Sandstorm). Therefor it's better to fix Mysticism, something which I agree must be done carefully. So everyone tries to find the best way they can :)

This is where I disagree. I'm quite sure it's meant to be used again as soon as it recharges. An elementalists spam spells, why not dervishes?(Dervishes are one of the most pressure oriented class IMO) And Mystic Sandstorm costs 10 rather than 5 and it wouldn't be beneficial to use Mystic Sandstorm unless you really got pretty much just enchantments in your line. Infact I've used a build with this using a staff for energy. And sure it did some nice damage as long as noone "countered" me and especially work well when they just stand still, but I never saw a monk have trouble protecting/healing the target I was attacking alone, if my team wasn't causing trouble for the monk, I probably wouldn't kill anything... ( A warrior or assassin can kill a monk with spikes... A dervish cannot even if the monk stood still, with the exception of Grenth's Form, but that requires attack skills )

Gordon Michael
05-08-2006, 06:05
Here's a less disruptive potential mysticism nerf.

Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 3 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 3 Energy regeneration for 1 second for every 2 ranks of Mysticism.

3 energy regen = 1 energy per second, so it yields the same energy as long as you don't lose more than 1 enchantment every 1 to 8 seconds, but you gain no additional energy benefit for blowing all your enchants at once. Alternately, they could make it 6 energy regen for a quarter of a second per rank of mysticism, assuming the game engine supports effect durations in increments shorter than a second. I'm assuming no one has a problem with the health gain, since a monk can get the same healing per spell with Divine Favor, and twice as much healing per consumed enchant with CoP.

Dreadwing
05-08-2006, 12:31
They could change it to single remove enchant so lets say even if you remove 10 enchant on you with COP you only get energy of one enchant.(DO you get what Im saying lol)

katya
05-08-2006, 12:42
Yeah, makes sense. I believe that is what Corsaire suggested earlier too. I like that as a clean, neat solution.

Akirai Annuvil
05-08-2006, 12:46
Suxxorz
This is where I disagree. I'm quite sure it's meant to be used again as soon as it recharges. An elementalists spam spells, why not dervishes?(Dervishes are one of the most pressure oriented class IMO) And Mystic Sandstorm costs 10 rather than 5 and it wouldn't be beneficial to use Mystic Sandstorm unless you really got pretty much just enchantments in your line.


Well I agree that they should be spammable however not for what's pretty much an unlimited amount of time. An ele will have difficulty spamming Flame Burst + Inferno all the match long while their effects are similar to the Dervish enchantments no?
I think that although they should be spammable for a short amount of time, after that the Dervish should get energy problems, much more energy problems than now.
Also don't know whether you know the CoP build because in fact they do have pretty much an entire line up of damage enchantments:

Can't remember the exact attribute numbers but something like
Mysticism 12 (+1=13)
Wind & Earth Prayers 10 (+1=11) - 8 (+1+3=12)
Something like that

Heart of Holy Flame
Balths Rage
Grenths Fingers
Staggering Force
Aura of Thorns/Dust Cloak (all 5 offensive enchants, AoT inflits conditions)
Mystic Sandstorm/CoP
Victory is mine!/<An Avatar>
Rez sig
Signet of Piety (or some other self heal)

You can see how Mystic Sandstorm is no problem with energy cost in the MS build and how both of them staple on enhcantments? Victory is Mine gives 5 energy standard for each surrounding conditions and there were (counting, please hold on ;P) 5 combined with the natural energy gained per enchant which was 6 I thought = 11 per enchant. + The regen during the casting times meaned that this combination was endlessly repeatable which is around 6 seconds with 2 pips meaning that it's almost endlessly repeatable. Oh and it dealt good damage.
CoP build doesn't far so well, and I've actually never found it too difficult too beat but apparently others have.

Oh and to get enough energy to execute the moves in the first place +15 energy -1 regen wands and foci worked great :)

No I didn't have that much problem walking out of there ranged either when we were 1vs1 but that is a situation you do not want to be in if you'r the Dervish because you excel against large groups.

SuXxorz
05-08-2006, 15:26
No I didn't have that much problem walking out of there ranged either when we were 1vs1 but that is a situation you do not want to be in if you'r the Dervish because you excel against large groups.

But that's just it, the enemies can control where they are ( It was funny when playing during that event that every few battles I would get a group that would clump together, when there's 3-4 dervishes on my team... )

And no, I didn't know about that exact build with victory was mine, especially since I don't have prophecies... Instead my energy management was Meditation and maxing out my stats in Mysticism and putting rest of the points in Earth Attrs... No wait, errr, I didn't need Meditation now that I remember, it was spam 4-5 enchants then Mystic Sandstorm and I had my energy back pretty much. However, As I was spamming it, I ended up having to wait for them to recharge alot of the time and didn't really feel like it was all that powerful when the enemy would kite correctly. THat's just my opinion of course. I just feel spamming should be possible for a dervish, because y? There's Nature's Renewal and there's several ways to interrupt a dervish, especially when all he does is spam. ( Maybe they'll throw in a skill similar to Shame or Guilt that would affect a dervish[enchants] if those doesn't already do? <--- this is something I would support. however, I do not want every class to have strong counters to the dervish, especially when I look at the assassin, who has no adequate defense. Warriors can totally ruin assassins with skills like shield bash or riposte, ele blind bot wards, mesmer has several, ranger interrupt stance energy denial, necro wail of doom? or okay maybe not as much for necros, but u get the point)

Ahnix
05-08-2006, 16:50
So what it is seemingly boiling down to, whether the mass of the community will admit it or not, is that people are entirely angered by the fact that their staple Whammo's and Boon/Prot groups...clumped together...in the corner....not focusing on one target...... can in fact ........ be killed. :shocked:

Before I go on mind you, I mostly play as a Necromancer so don't jump to the idea I'm defending "my own class"

So let's look at the facts. I have never found it beneficial for the damage dealers or tanks to stand hand in hand with the healer of the group so why clumping together against an PBAoE character is a good idea? I'm not quite sure. Also, people act blindly as if the dervish is an invicible god(no correlation to avatars) and cannot be countered. I do seem to remember a time in the Guild Wars timeline in which, deny it as you might, Touch Rangers were the all mighty "Overpowered" build. When they were first introduced -OMG- Unstoppable Godzillas stomping across the earth. Then those same people who thought up the build said well hey....everyone else is using the build...lets find a counter. E-denial/Interupt/Diversion/Blackout and suddenly the Black cloud lifted and touch rangers weren't the invicible overpowered and unfair demi-gods they were seen as. Against unprepared enemies, Touch Rangers are STILL a major force to deal with. So now...how does that tie in at all with the Dervish? Aside from not clumping together....just like you wouldnt clump under a fire storm...blackout/e-denial/interrupts/diversion and O-MY-WORD....you can CRIPPLE THOSE GUYS!? suddenly nulling their PBAoE attacks if they are at a constant 15+yards away. So yes, I agree instead of finding counters and using skills...which the game was loosely based around, I heard that somewhere I think...let's just nerf the dervish, call them all barney and give them super-hug abilities for self-smiles and ":heart: I love you:heart: " shouts for +3 Health Regen. Who needs a new idea for a class I prefer more useless character models. What people are ignoring is that the Dervish, though can gain armor from certain spells, do not have a Warriors Armor...they don't get +30 elemental resistance on all their equip. Each class has their own little "niche" they can fit and work with. I've seen MANY actually TALENTED W/anything go toe-to-toe with a dervish...no problems....I've seen a 10 minute stand-off with a derv and a monk. So obviously as was said before....in a one on one...derv's are in a bad way....so why then do we still insist on all holding hands around said Dervish and hoping his PBAoE spells wont hit us all. Spiteful Spirit with a helping of Plague Touch....goodnight dervish call me in the morning.

So now that I've spilled my 2 cents...you can all go on about how wrong I am and how unfair it is that the big bad mean heads can chain their skills to kill your cookie cutter builds. For those of you who aren't in the complaining children category, I appologize for you having read through all the stuff you already know.:cloud9:

Akirai Annuvil
05-08-2006, 17:37
@ Ahnix lol funy post :) Your forgetting a thing though; those same inspirational people who copied and aused the touch ranger build, are the ones saying nerf everything. And because they are the vast majority of players, and because the original people they normally copy from didn't have enough time to develop easy-to-use-yet-very-effective builds in a single weekend, they start complaining. And ANet being a company who wants to make money would rather keep the vast majority of people happy than those few creative minds and thus will nerf them. Profit > game balance

mr godspeed
05-08-2006, 17:42
I don't think they should nerf it at all. It was great watching those dervs give it to the tough rangers. The rangers would run right up to the dervs and wham "what happened" it was great. After a while the rangers where running when they saw a dervish coming at them. But I guess that creates another problem huh. Oh well it was funny.:laugh:

SuXxorz
05-08-2006, 18:15
When I played Grenth's form with skills that would cause trouble for monks, I didn't really have room for healing spells... lost easily to a touch ranger, that's 1 other reason y I don't feel the class is overpowered as much as people make it out to be...

critical vengeance
05-08-2006, 18:23
Well I agree that they should be spammable however not for what's pretty much an unlimited amount of time. An ele will have difficulty spamming Flame Burst + Inferno all the match long while their effects are similar to the Dervish enchantments no?



If they were to be the same then the dervish would add nothing a elemantalist could do. Who would want a dervish when you could just get an ele to death charge in and do crazy area effect damage.

One thing nice about a powerful in your face class is

1 touch rangers- na na na na you dead now :grin: ok sorry about that, but there is a place in my heart that makes me dance.

2 It adds quite a new stir into the game, what you thought is changed and it adds more dimentions to the game, which is incredibly helpful since we don't seem to have a z axies :tongue:

3 if strong and not nerfed out of it's mind it could hold to be a powerful class to come, poor assassins.

4 see above about elemantalists

5 Scythes ftw

ok i'm done for now lol

Akirai Annuvil
06-08-2006, 12:42
.1 They'd die when facing other classes too ;)
.2 Indeed I still want a jump button ;P
.3 If not nerfed it's indeed a powerful class to come, and slightly too powerful, so nerfing it slightly is good, nerfing it lots is BAD (poor, POOR assassins...)
.4 Yes I'm not arguing against their spammability, I'm arguing more against the ease with which it is maintained with very little extra energy management besides their primary attribute which I think is wrong (actually I'm not so much against the Victory is Mine build, but more against the CoP build which I think abuses the Primary more, since it's almost it's only source of ebergy management, yet the build is one of the most effective). I also think that the ranger primary is slightly overpowered in it's own right but that the skills would otherwise be completely unusable so I see the necessity; a small tuning of Mysticism however will probably not break the class.
.5 SCYTHES XD

ShadowCeiling
10-08-2006, 13:16
It did seems alot of the problems in the PvP weekend was that a lot people stuck to the old formations per se, so that the dervishes could spam and destroy a good chunk of the opposing team. In my eyes, the paragon, ranger, mesmer, and a good assassin are great counters against a dervish. This class is almost like a suicide runner, where it has low armor, slow attack, but but explosive damage with spells. Mysticism does need to be re-tooled, maybe like someone said as percetage versus actual numbers, maybe for every enchant the ends you get like a percentage of your total health back, and a percetange of your total energy back? I seriously don't want this class to turn into what the assassin turned into, where it's the joke class.

I Orca I
11-08-2006, 04:56
old: Contemplation of Purity
Lose all enchantments. For each one lost, you gain 6-65 health, lose one hex, and lose one condition.

new: Contemplation of Purity
Lose 1 enchantment for each rank in divine favor you remove 1 more enchantment. For each one lost, you gain 0-65 health. In addition you lose one hex, and lose one condition, but you remove 1 more hex and one more condition for every 5 ranks in divine favor.



Thats probably the best solution, but I wouldnt make CoP any better as its already a great skill, unless of course you want to make it an elite.

I wouldnt nerf mysticism or even change it, maintainable enchants would be too powerfull if you build around NOT removing them yourself. The current working is fine its just the whole CoP spike thats annoyed everyone. Making it so that it can only remove a number of enchants based on divine favour is perfect. I am yet to see anything other than a de/mo and a monk/x use CoP anywho, so its just fixing the problem and keeping monks the same old happy way they are.

Removing only monk enchants does have drawbacks but is still an alright fix, but the above suggestion takes the prize. Nerfing myst and thusly making dervishs very hard to e manage would just set it up like they did with factions. No love for assasins remember?

critical vengeance
11-08-2006, 05:27
Thats probably the best solution, but I wouldnt make CoP any better as its already a great skill, unless of course you want to make it an elite.

I wouldnt nerf mysticism or even change it, maintainable enchants would be too powerfull if you build around NOT removing them yourself. The current working is fine its just the whole CoP spike thats annoyed everyone. Making it so that it can only remove a number of enchants based on divine favour is perfect. I am yet to see anything other than a de/mo and a monk/x use CoP anywho, so its just fixing the problem and keeping monks the same old happy way they are.

Removing only monk enchants does have drawbacks but is still an alright fix, but the above suggestion takes the prize. Nerfing myst and thusly making dervishs very hard to e manage would just set it up like they did with factions. No love for assasins remember?

it didn't really get much better in what i said, just combined really a somewhat nerf with a buff

Malchiel
12-08-2006, 00:05
Make it such that it returns % of energy used to cast the spells ala ele attune whenever you lose an enchant.

ARE YOU CRAZY IT IS N-O-T About COP

Someone using reversal of fortune as energy management, protection and heal is CRAZY. You need to nerf this attribute a bunch. It's not just COP. Getting tons of energy for healing yourself is nuts.

katya
12-08-2006, 00:22
Easy there on the shouting. This has been an interesting and civil discussion so far. Let's keep it that way with all the suggestions and points being made.

critical vengeance
12-08-2006, 06:47
Make it such that it returns % of energy used to cast the spells ala ele attune whenever you lose an enchant.

ARE YOU CRAZY IT IS N-O-T About COP

Someone using reversal of fortune as energy management, protection and heal is CRAZY. You need to nerf this attribute a bunch. It's not just COP. Getting tons of energy for healing yourself is nuts.


actually a lot of it is to tell your the truth, there is another thread saying CoP if the end of guild wars