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Mr Dbest
03-08-2006, 09:36
As the topic states, i would like to discuss rank discrim and the effect of it on the current metagame in HA...Btw Rank Discrim is those advertisements that go "r4+++++ only" and the such....

Now the fact is that most people want ppl in their grp the same or higher rnak than them...So lets say that Mr X is r5 today, and loves starting r5+ balanced grps. In a month he will be r6. He will then start recruiting r6+ players for his balanced grps. Now, imagine that this is the way that most, if not all ppl in HA work. So in a month everyone r5 and lower has moved up a rank, and r now forming grps of tehir own lvl...and they rank up again in subsequent months...

I would just like to know how ppl hoo r new to the game or r interested in beginning HA r supposed to rank up and learn fundamental pvp skills without resorting to IWAY (which should b nerfed beyond recognition IMO)? How r they supposed to grind when all they are left with is IWAY, when no balanced or bloodspike group in their right mind will take them? And as these ppl rank up thru IWAY, they only KNOW how to play IWAY and start forming more of these virulent groups...It's a cycle that will only intensify as this game continues.

I m just wondering how ANEt will manage to allow HA's metagame to propser by increasing the number of participating players, and reducing mostly, i don't want to say unskilled, but less challenging builds that seem to dominate the HA scene (if you don't believe me go 2 id1 n stay there for 15 minutes)...

=]

Serendipity
03-08-2006, 10:03
If you want to play some HA, join a HA guild who will accept you at rank 0.

If you play a "viable" build every night, with the same people, in no time your rank 1 team will beat rank 3-6 Pugs regularly.

shamed
03-08-2006, 11:15
When I was r0, I started my own groups. If you try joining a group, it will take forever since most unranked people want to join groups but don't have the confidence to start one so they will all be spamming LFG along with you. If you just started spamming GLF instead, all those LFGs will take you up on the offer.

Since there will be more people who want to join you than there is room in your group, you can be a bossy and picky person. Demand that your team members play your build your way (but make sure you have a viable build first; a good way is to watch observer mode which was recently improved to show all battles in HoH), kick annoying people and regretfully let go people who don't have the necessary skills unlocked to play. It will probably take about half an hour to get a group of 8 and another 15 minutes for everyone to sort out their skills and reroll etc. Then you will proceed to get killed in the Underworld. Some people will leave. Find new people.

By the end of the night, you might get 1 or 2 fame. You should also get 1 or 2 new friends on your list who you can count on to reliably play their roles in a team. Continue doing this until you do not have to rely on PuGs anymore, just a very busy friendlist. You are now on your way to getting rank and participating in rank discrimination too.

There is no problem with the rank system. Everyone started out rankless and everyone has the opportunity to get rank. You will just get rank faster if you're competent. And honestly, once you have a good network going, rank becomes meaningless because you won't need it to get into groups.

Aiiane
03-08-2006, 11:50
*sigh* Another one of these posts...

To quickly sum up what has been stated before...

- Groups of friends are better than any pug, ranked or not, anyday.
- Building up a friendslist will get you farther than farming rank.
- The logical paradox: if rank matters, then why should you be able to join a ranked group, if it doesn't matter, why do you care if you do.

I'll let Parker figure out if he wants to less this stick around or not.

Hunterxp
03-08-2006, 11:58
I was rank 0 yesterday, rank 1 today, but i joined a B-spike group with ranks 0 -9 and we still managed to reach HoH quite alot. Goes to show that rank isnt totally everything

Sadistic Nightmare
03-08-2006, 12:55
Shame summed it pretty good and same goes with Aiiane.


I would just like to know how ppl hoo r new to the game or r interested in beginning HA r supposed to rank up and learn fundamental pvp skills without resorting to IWAY (which should b nerfed beyond recognition IMO)? How r they supposed to grind when all they are left with is IWAY, when no balanced or bloodspike group in their right mind will take them? And as these ppl rank up thru IWAY, they only KNOW how to play IWAY and start forming more of these virulent groups...It's a cycle that will only intensify as this game continues.

I'd like to say. Firstly Iway should not be nerfed because its not overpowered in anyway ( Maybe OoA). Secondly, Iway is a basically a balance build now. Lastly, if you are desperate in getting rank, you'll put away your pride and ego, and acutally play Iway.


Welcome to the beautiful hell of Heroe's Ascent

ZiegDivine
03-08-2006, 17:22
Join a guild, that's my advice. A couple days ago I was r1, then spent the night in HA with StP (one of the guilds sP is allied with), got to 74 fame. Yesterday, got lucky and got into a guild group (I was just standing around in HA) as a WoH monk, which got me to r2. A little later that night my friend from BC whispered me, and I guested with their alliance "PuG," which got me to 91 fame. I doubled my fame count in a couple of days, pretty much through alliances. By joining a guild you already have an established contact list (the guild itself, and an alliance), and on an occasion when there is nobody on, you can still pug and make friends.

David Holtzman
03-08-2006, 19:34
I would just like to know how ppl hoo r new to the game or r interested in beginning HA r supposed to rank up and learn fundamental pvp skills without resorting to IWAY (which should b nerfed beyond recognition IMO)?

First off, there's nothing wrong with IWAY, so I don't see what the big deal about it is. It's as if you're saying, "How can I learn to be a doctor without going to High School?". The answer may very well be, "You can't."

Second, the way you get into groups is by motivating them to take you. If you do not have the capability to offer them a rank incentive, you had better find another. Making friends is what I've always done.


I m just wondering how ANEt will manage to allow HA's metagame to propser by increasing the number of participating players, and reducing mostly, i don't want to say unskilled, but less challenging builds that seem to dominate the HA scene (if you don't believe me go 2 id1 n stay there for 15 minutes)...

If by dominance you mean prevalence you are certainly correct, but if by dominance you mean success then in general I'm forced to disagree. The less challenging builds in general do not work all that effectively in most situations; their advantage is either that they are hard to counter or that matches are extremely fast.

Apok Omni
03-08-2006, 20:03
I'm just gonna say this: Maturity counts.

When I was r0, there were tons of people who were spamming ''r6+++ GLF'' and I couldn't get into a group. I knew what the Builds were and everything as I took more time studying the tactics more than actually playing them. So, if I had a build down and was ready to play it, then I saw a ranked group looking for that same build, I would have a nice conversation with the leader. Soon enough, they decided to test me out. We did great, lost to a high ranked guild, then disbanded. I earned about 6 fame, so that was enough for one day.

With titles comes experience. No one can go from r0 to r3 in one day; it takes time. The people who got their ranks had to do the same thing I and others did, so they understand the pain.

Zingeri
03-08-2006, 20:06
Join a guild, that's my advice. A couple days ago I was r1, then spent the night in HA with StP (one of the guilds sP is allied with), got to 74 fame. Yesterday, got lucky and got into a guild group (I was just standing around in HA) as a WoH monk, which got me to r2. A little later that night my friend from BC whispered me, and I guested with their alliance "PuG," which got me to 91 fame. I doubled my fame count in a couple of days, pretty much through alliances. By joining a guild you already have an established contact list (the guild itself, and an alliance), and on an occasion when there is nobody on, you can still pug and make friends.Ironically I was refused from a guild recently because I had no rank. Domino effect FTW.

Last night, I joined my friend's PuG as a Ritual Lord. I only has 21 fame at the time. At the end, we hold HoH 6 times I come out with 86 fame. :grin:

Although it's going to be impossible to get Rank 3. :cry:

Vampyrija
05-08-2006, 14:58
Shame summed it pretty good and same goes with Aiiane.



I'd like to say. Firstly Iway should not be nerfed because its not overpowered in anyway ( Maybe OoA). Secondly, Iway is a basically a balance build now. Lastly, if you are desperate in getting rank, you'll put away your pride and ego, and acutally play Iway.


Welcome to the beautiful hell of Heroe's Ascent

I agree that IWAY as it is today is more and more balanced (only 4 W/R, 1 oath, 2 N, 1 Rt) but you don't have to play IWAY to get to r3.

I got my r3 in balanced alliance teams and I've only played IWAY once to see what it was like (got 0 fame by the way lol).

Sadistic Nightmare
05-08-2006, 15:53
I agree that IWAY as it is today is more and more balanced (only 4 W/R, 1 oath, 2 N, 1 Rt) but you don't have to play IWAY to get to r3.

I got my r3 in balanced alliance teams and I've only played IWAY once to see what it was like (got 0 fame by the way lol).

you're right, you dont have to play Iway to get rank3 but its the only build that can actually get you into pugs without really needed to be rank 3/6/9/12.

Ban
05-08-2006, 18:09
Only advice i have is: KNOW what you are doing and be willing to LEARN. There are unranked PuG's out there. If you go like: "WoH lfg" but the only thing you know is that WoH is Word of Healing and you have it on your skillbar. You wont last long in any group. Either you will be kicked or the group will fall apart (wich is the case with most PuG's, lol). Lets stay with the monk example. Know the BASIC idea of Energy Management and Focus Swapping. Both can be hard to learn, but knowing how it works is a great advantage. You'll learn how to properly do it by playing. Just KNOW :)

monx
05-08-2006, 18:30
Cry more!

My tips for HA/HoH:

before even looking for a group:
-get the Teamspeak and Ventrilo cleints (get a mic if you can but if you can't, don't worry)
-learn what you need for the most common builds (skills and equipment)
-know your role in a group (obviously this means understanding certain builds)

-learn to make friends (seriously this helps a lot...you will get into some ranked groups just because you know someone)
-make more friends (because pugs will make you cry IRL)

Last but not least....<drum roll> STOP CRYING and WHINING!

Rank 3 is easy. So many FOTM builds to farm fame with. I recommend Blood Spike. Good Luck!

ZiegDivine
05-08-2006, 20:22
-learn to make friends (seriously this helps a lot...you will get into some ranked groups just because you know someone)

QFT. Rank 10 groups ftw (I'm r2).

defrule
06-08-2006, 03:54
Rank 5 at the moment and don't HA much, but when I do a lot of higher ranked people are usually willing to tag along unless they're busy, I suppose I've played with them before. At the moment organising groups in the alliance is so much easier.

Ashin
06-08-2006, 08:49
I'm going to say communication/maturity counts for a lot.

I have been invited into r6+ groups simply because I can communicate, and demonstrate an understanding of my class. Sometimes they even overlook the fact that I cannot bring them frozen soil because I do not own prophecies. And that's only because the team leader decides by talking to me that I sound like I know what I am doing and that I'm not going to be a complete moron.

Not to sound completely stuck up and rude, but typing in real words is probably a good first step. =)

I want to also say that these r6+ pugs almost always fail, and disband immediately upon failure, despite the hour it took to make the team. I think it has a lot to do with putting way too much faith in the team build and not enough emphasis on individual players. No I am not saying team build doesn't matter; rather I'm saying if the build of the team is all you care about I believe you will likely fail.

When team leaders give me skillbars for my rit, I usually scratch my head, and politely tell them that, while I will certainly play the build they've given me to the best of my ability, I don't think it is a very good build. For some reason this is especially true when they want a resto rit (ie nr/tranq build).. I sometimes boggle at the skillbars they give me, and I can tell right away that it was designed to work in theory but will not work in practice at all. (or perhaps I should say.. will not work well without the entire team practicing together)

I'm totally confident that if I had my guildmates here (they are mostly still in WoW..), we could go into HA with no real "build" at all, and simply by virtue of being good pvp'ers who are used to playing together, do vastly better than the majority of ranked pugs. But that's just my opinion. =)

Dallcingi
07-08-2006, 01:33
hrm.. rank just shows how much one plays.. the more rank you have, the more you played. this isnt 100% true though (since u can just hold halls 20 times in a row to get 800 fame in a run) but in the long run, it is. im rank 1 still with 44 fame and i have played for a little while... its funny how my pug beat a r3 group though. i guess if a low rank team beats higher rank team they get bragging rights..

ultimagladiator
07-08-2006, 01:39
Yeh, if you don't have r3, people just think you a noob. It just means you aren't a PvP freak, I am r2 atm and mostly if I try to PvP there are either only Ranked parties or people looking for things I have never heard of.

Super Kenny
07-08-2006, 03:23
Reason for rank discrimination:

Most unranked people sorta DO..suck.
And I know once you get that r3, you won't let any unranked people in your group.

As for a way around it, I think everyone has said the few good stuff.

Snype Doesnt Heal
07-08-2006, 06:18
1. Start your own groups, with builds that you KNOW will work
2. Pay close attention to those people that you bring in your groups, weed out the ones that your find to be good/knowledgable
3. Pm said players and tell them that you have added them to your friends list and would like to invite them to a "friends only group/pug"
4. Eventually, when you have enough of these friends online, create a group with only these people, and because you know they are good, your group should do very well.

Good Luck :smiley:

monx
07-08-2006, 08:26
1. Start your own groups, with builds that you KNOW will work
2. Pay close attention to those people that you bring in your groups, weed out the ones that your find to be good/knowledgable
3. Pm said players and tell them that you have added them to your friends list and would like to invite them to a "friends only group/pug"
4. Eventually, when you have enough of these friends online, create a group with only these people, and because you know they are good, your group should do very well.

Good Luck :smiley:

Also remember to ask them to add you to their friends list. It's all about getting your name out there.

Ashin
07-08-2006, 09:39
Reason for rank discrimination:

Most unranked people sorta DO..suck.

To be totally honest, I think you could just say most people (ranked or unranked) kind of suck at PvP. =P

I'm totally baffled sometimes by the average guildwars player. Probably people reading these forums do not fall under this category, but I think you guys know what I am talking about. I am the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn.. but sometimes I see people do things that just defies all common sense lol.

Zui
07-08-2006, 10:42
Rank Discrimination is a non-issue. It exists. It sucks for alot of new players.

Of course, those players that build a Friends list, and play with their Friends/Guildies don't have problems with Rank Discrimination. They also don't have masses of players that are rank 6 or rank 9 and above that don't even kite, or know what overextending is. Sure, there are good ranked players, but there's an equal amount of bad ones.

So, just build a Friends list of like-minded PvPers, and join a good guild. Problem solved.

Master Zimmy
07-08-2006, 15:58
Rank Discrimination is a non-issue. It exists. It sucks for alot of new players.

Of course, those players that build a Friends list, and play with their Friends/Guildies don't have problems with Rank Discrimination. They also don't have masses of players that are rank 6 or rank 9 and above that don't even kite, or know what overextending is. Sure, there are good ranked players, but there's an equal amount of bad ones.

So, just build a Friends list of like-minded PvPers, and join a good guild. Problem solved.
QFT, I saw the title & this is immediately what I thought.

remmeh
07-08-2006, 19:25
Rank Discrimination is a non-issue. It exists. It sucks for alot of new players.

Of course, those players that build a Friends list, and play with their Friends/Guildies don't have problems with Rank Discrimination. They also don't have masses of players that are rank 6 or rank 9 and above that don't even kite, or know what overextending is. Sure, there are good ranked players, but there's an equal amount of bad ones.

So, just build a Friends list of like-minded PvPers, and join a good guild. Problem solved.

hi yummy!

just to note... i had a similar problem finding good people in TA. joined a few good pugs, built up a bustling friends list... and now getting glad points is much less of a problem than it was before.

thedrjay
07-08-2006, 20:25
Just deal with it like the rest of us did.

scamPOR
07-08-2006, 20:30
you cannot overextend in tombs /sarcasm

fang
08-08-2006, 05:07
If you can really play well and know your stuff but honestly cant get into groups but as well as an r3 or r4 etc, just lie if nothing else is working. If you play well no one will care. and most non iway/vim groups dont check rank. thats how i got my r4

David Holtzman
08-08-2006, 06:41
If you can really play well and know your stuff but honestly cant get into groups but as well as an r3 or r4 etc, just lie if nothing else is working. If you play well no one will care. and most non iway/vim groups dont check rank. thats how i got my r4

I really advise against this method. All you'll do is make enemies when they learn you've lied to them, and in this game (as in most things) it's generally considered bad to have enemies. Especially when they are the people you'll end up trying to group with.

fang
08-08-2006, 06:56
My method is if you play well. I'm not saying bring echo mending on a mo/me and say your a great boon/prot thats r4 and really r0. I'll share a little story. I was an r4 in an r6 group playing boon/prot. They didnt ask to rank and i turned off my title to protector of tyria. We ended up holding halls and keeping it till we got favor. I told them i was only r4. They said, "**** it dude, you played well thats all that matters". I later joined their guild. Dont lie about how well you play but if you play well enough to do you job well then i say bending the rules isnt such a bad thing

Savsuds
08-08-2006, 07:07
I occasionally get talked into going into HA for some stress-free fun. I have found myself in rank 0 on up to rank 9++ groups. Rank does not matter to players that play using their friend's list over rank emoters. Those same high ranked groups might insist upon a PuG having a high rank, since they will be an unknown Player.

David Holtzman
08-08-2006, 07:29
My method is if you play well.

What's that got to do with anything? You're still a liar either way.


I'm not saying bring echo mending on a mo/me and say your a great boon/prot thats r4 and really r0. I'll share a little story. I was an r4 in an r6 group playing boon/prot. They didnt ask to rank and i turned off my title to protector of tyria. We ended up holding halls and keeping it till we got favor. I told them i was only r4. They said, "**** it dude, you played well thats all that matters". I later joined their guild.

Er... so what? It's very nice that it worked out for you, but that doesn't mean people should be lying or that it will work out for them. Which I believe it won't, and I've seen my fair share of tombs and players.


Dont lie about how well you play but if you play well enough to do you job well then i say bending the rules isnt such a bad thing

Bend the rules? You aren't "bending rules," you're lying to people. And why is it ok to lie about rank and not about skill? A lie is a lie, after all.

Buddah
08-08-2006, 18:06
You can tell Holtzman is happy. At least this time he has an arguement on this subject.

Almas Darksoul
08-08-2006, 19:52
I remember my HA rank grind...

I started as a rank 0, intent on getting into all those uber groups. I -KNEW- that if I got to rank 3, I'd find loads of great groups, and they would make getting future ranks super-fast.
I ended up joining a PvP guild that I met from playing in Team Areans, and they helped me get a little fame, and I pugged the rest (this was around the time when smite was in its prime). Eventually, I got my rank 3.

So, with my new emote, I started joining all the r3 pugs, only to notice something. They sucked. All of them. Either way, I was sure that once I reached rank 6, and got my wolf emote, all the groups would be great, making getting to rank 9 easy. It wasn't long until IWAY started, and my guild broke up into two.

I ended up in an American guild which played a heavily modded IWAY build (3w, 1 taint, 2boon, 2 trapper). I grinded fame with them, and then guild groups of my current guild. Eventually, after joining my current guild, I hit rank 6. With my new found wolf emote, I knew that I could finally find some decent pug groups to accelerate my fame gain when not in guild groups. I couldn't.

I've had rank 9 for some time now, and only a few times have I joined "r9+ pugs". Very, very rarely are they any good. I only ever join groups made by people on my friends list, in my alliance, or who I recognise as being highly-skilled and good leaders.

The moral of the story is that Pugs suck regardless of the rank you are, and you can get into good guilds without rank. Not one of the guilds I joined to get where I am today cared about my rank. Your best bet is to leave your guild, go to team arenas and join guild groups there. Eventually, you'll find what you're looking for. Or, you can grind like crazy, get r3 from 1 fame a day, then join a r3+ guild, and hope it works out.

David Holtzman
08-08-2006, 20:05
You can tell Holtzman is happy. At least this time he has an arguement on this subject.

I'll be happy when someone has the answer to my Rank Discrimination question that doesn't consist of, "I hate you!" and lots of crying.

Phoenixtech
08-08-2006, 20:34
I often give unranked player a chance, here's a couple of hints to ease the grind.

1) Learn the skill bar for build. Seriously, there's so many sites around that will list you the exact bar + stats you need. LOOK IT UP. Nothing annoys me more than some guy who claims to be 179.99999999 fame and so close to r3 but have no clue what the bar is. I know i can't list other sites on this forum, so google it up.

2) If you don't get picked high ranked groups. It's probably because they have someone else coming/or spot already filled. I get so many unranked people harrasing me after I tell them that the spot was filled with "you noob" or other crying. I mean seriously, most of the people in my group (i use mostly flist these days, PUGs are horrible) had to grind their own fame to r3/r6/r9 and endure all of the rank discrimination themselves, live with it. If someone gives doesn't give you a chance at that moment in time, so what? Wait until next time. Getting stupid and burning bridges is the stupidest thing to do. This also goes with with #1, If you do not even know the bar, don't expect to get into the group. Calling me a NOOB because I won't take unranked 179.9999 fame but don't even know the bar will guarantee you that you will never get into any of my groups ever.

3) If and when you get into the higher ranked groups. FOLLOW directions. I had so many unranked people who think they knew better or just plain do not follow directions.

4) If you cannot get a rank group going, how about taking some initiative and LEARN the damn build yourself and put together your OWN group? I mean that's how I learned how to play and I guarantee you that you will learn 1000 time more than some leech that just rides on someone else's back. You WILL fail alot, no mistake about that, and you will have to deal with ragequitters. In the end, however, it will make you a better leader/player for it.

That's all I can think of right now. But in general the best advice is to get into a PVP guild. Once you are in a guild it's pretty easy and people are more willing to teach you and train you.

fang
09-08-2006, 04:56
Maybe i am still a liar but im a liar who plays well.

Wtf does rank matter if your good. Do you want an r4 retarded gopher or an r0 excellent player.

because unless you want the gopher its ok to lie about that. skill is what matters. When you walk into the underworld do you win by typing /rank?

Buddah
09-08-2006, 06:16
I'll be happy when someone has the answer to my Rank Discrimination question that doesn't consist of, "I hate you!" and lots of crying.
You never had such a question in this thread so much as harsh criticism for a few peoples' remarks.

Personally I was disgusted with people who put their faith in rank within a two weeks of release of GW. In a time where there was a well documented Fame bug. People already put too much faith in that emote back then. As time has passed it might have gotten worse with groups that just look at the friggen emote as their way of deciding who gets in.

Once again I ask what is more important, the emote or the players skill?

Ashin
09-08-2006, 06:17
Fang, I think everybody's point is that getting into groups via deception is probably not the best way to earn the admiration of good, organized players.

If you personally like to take your chances and lie to people, that is your prerogative. But as for giving advice to new players, I hardly think it's wise to encourage them to try to deceive more experienced players in order to get good groups.

David Holtzman
09-08-2006, 07:54
Wtf does rank matter if your good.

Whenever did I say it did? I have no problems with unranked players, my problems are with unethical behavior.


Do you want an r4 retarded gopher or an r0 excellent player.

Um.. I'll take the r9-12 top 20 gvg players please.


skill is what matters.

Obviously it's not the only thing that matters. Integrity matters as well.


When you walk into the underworld do you win by typing /rank?

It's happened once or twice, although I see the point you're trying to make. That point is totally ridiculous of course, but that's another matter. You're trying to argue that compared to in-game ability, character is meaningless. That is an awfully silly position in a world where plenty of people exist with both.

************************************************** ********


You never had such a question in this thread so much as harsh criticism for a few peoples' remarks.

That is certainly true, as I didn't feel the need to post my question in this thread. The part I was responding to was not really relevant to my question, so I felt it would be inappropriate to post it here.


Personally I was disgusted with people who put their faith in rank within a two weeks of release of GW

Why? All things considered it's still the best simple system we have to date.


Once again I ask what is more important, the emote or the players skill?

False dichotomy. The question here was one of character. Which would I choose between skill and character? Character, no question. And almost every top guild I know of thinks the same way. Of course, there's a good deal of people with both skill and character so the problem doesn't really exist.

Parker Bsb
09-08-2006, 14:17
Fang, if you think rank means nothing; why do you lie about it? I mean unless you agree that rank DOES matter, which of course defeats your entire argument.

If you think you are an anomaly out of the millions that play GW then think again, I'm sure there are alot of R0 players that are highly skilled... ikley if you get a whole group of em you could roll thos R9 n00bs.

JodoKast
09-08-2006, 14:47
1) Learn the skill bar for build. Seriously, there's so many sites around that will list you the exact bar + stats you need. LOOK IT UP. Nothing annoys me more than some guy who claims to be 179.99999999 fame and so close to r3 but have no clue what the bar is. I know i can't list other sites on this forum, so google it up.


The better alternative by far in my opinion would be to politely ask the leader what exact bar he wants you to take. That is the 100% safest way to manage expectations and avoid surprises. Also ask confirmation about the general role you take. Having an idea of the general role concepts helps of course but you never know what specificities the leader might have in mind.

In my opinion, flexibility and attitude is what will make your experience better, not your ability to google a cookie cutter build.

If the leader can't be bothered to give you indications, then you would be better with some other group probably.

Taxed
09-08-2006, 14:59
As a matter of fact, and I'm no HA expert or anything...but...
I met a few people in TA, all were brand new to the game. (This was when you could simply hit the enter mission button and join a group. We rattled off some where around 23 wins in a row or so. Only found out they were new (like DAYS into the game after the run) They wanted to experience 8v8. So, I helped them put together a simple build and we went.
Well, on Map 1 - we rolled IWAY..took about 3 min. Map 2 - They flashed their leet rank 9 skillz....we rolled them too. Next we won an Altar map...just barely though. Made it to the relic run map and...well got owned (Simply because my team wasn't sure what to do or how to do it).

The morale of the story?

Rank does not mean you are a good player. Rank means you should have a general idea of how to run specific maps, such as altar maps and relic runs.

thedrjay
09-08-2006, 17:51
Rank can also indicate knowledge of the HA meta and specific strategies on said mapsl.

Ashin
09-08-2006, 18:24
Rank can also indicate knowledge of the HA meta and specific strategies on said mapsl.

I think that's probably the only thing that it does indicate with any reliability. Higher ranked players do tend to know common builds and common strategies.

Buddah
09-08-2006, 18:28
Why? All things considered it's still the best simple system we have to date.
I explained this already.



False dichotomy. The question here was one of character. Which would I choose between skill and character? Character, no question. And almost every top guild I know of thinks the same way. Of course, there's a good deal of people with both skill and character so the problem doesn't really exist.
You're ducking the question.

ZiegDivine
09-08-2006, 18:34
I think that's probably the only thing that it does indicate with any reliability. Higher ranked players do tend to know common builds and common strategies.

Funny story ... my friend grouped with a bored r6 in an unranked group. When they got a relic running map (the first one, I forget the name) the r6 typed out "O.O I've never been here before. What do I do?" Granted that's a very rare r6, but it still happens.

In other news, while people are arguing about rank discrimation on gwo, I'm working away towards my r3 (165 fame) and I've come to realize something. Pugging is a horrendous idea. At this point, the only reason I want r3 is so that I can have an okay title, instead of having "Explorer of Tyria" on my monk. I roll with r0-r9 (with an occasional r10 or r11) every day, and it's very rare that I find myself trying to get into a pug. Rank is just a pretty toy now, nothing more, nothing less.

David Holtzman
09-08-2006, 18:43
I explained this already.

Not really. You explained why it wasn't a great system, fair enough, but that's not the same thing as suggesting we oughtn't use it or that it isn't the best possible system given the situation.


You're ducking the question.

No, ducking a question is when I pretend you didn't say something and then answer something else. What I did was invalidate your question by pointing out it was logically invalid. I then proposed an alternate question which I answered. If you like I can discuss in detail why your question is logically invalid, but I as I gather from your other posts you are perceptive enough to know what I mean.

Buddah
09-08-2006, 21:47
No, ducking a question is when I pretend you didn't say something and then answer something else. Still ducking.

ZiegDivine
09-08-2006, 22:21
I'll answer for him. Player skill. Case closed.

David Holtzman
09-08-2006, 22:23
Still ducking.

*sigh*

If you think you gain some sort of a silly victory by saying the word "ducking", I must regrettably inform you that you are totally and utterly incorrect. You see, because I think you're doing it because you have no argument. If you'd had an argument, you'd have made one. It's quite apparent to me then, and probably everyone else, that you've really got nothing. Here, I'll even do your nxt post for you:

"Ducking."

************************************************** ********


I'll answer for him. Player skill. Case closed.

No, that is not the answer because the question was stupid. It isn't an either/or situation; I can have both if I want. And I will have both in ADDITION to players who don't lie to me about their rank. As I said, it was a false dichotomy. Here, have an example of another:

Do you think the sky is green or red?

The problem with Buddah's argument is that when I answer "blue" he gets mad at me and says I'm avoiding the question. This is false. His question was stupid, and I am providing the correct answer that was not provided in the set. So no, player skill is not the answer. The answer is still "both" under the rules of the situation as described earlier.

BrutusV
09-08-2006, 22:52
I roll with r0-r9 (with an occasional r10 or r11) every day, and it's very rare that I find myself trying to get into a pug. Rank is just a pretty toy now, nothing more, nothing less.

Mind sharing how you got to the point where you don't have to PUG so other <r3 people can do the same and stop complaining?

David Holtzman
09-08-2006, 23:02
Mind sharing how you got to the point where you don't have to PUG so other <r3 people can do the same and stop complaining?

He made friends. Lots of em. All over the place in the rank structure. Then he got into their groups.

ZiegDivine
09-08-2006, 23:04
I did in the first page. I made friends. It all started out when I joined sP about a week and a half ago. I rolled with a guild group, but we had a couple guests. The guests and the guild saw that I knew what I was talking about even though I was r1 (at the time). I quote a guildie over vent "listen to this guy, he knows his ****." I'm not bragging, I'm just showing that I was able to impress people with my r1 "skill." Those guests later whispered me if I wanted to come HA with them, and I made a couple more friends in that group. I also pugged with a couple guild groups, who now whisper me on a regular basis (at least once a day) to come HA or GvG with them. It's all about talking to people, and showing them that even though you're less of a rank than they are, you know the game fairly well.

As it is right now, my friend's list is full, most of the people are above r6, with a few r11s in there. I accomplished this in a week. I'm sure others can too.

Another point is that people skills help. If you want to add somebody to your friend's list, but are unsure if they would appreciate a whisper later on, whisper them right them, and ask for their permission to put on your friend's list. Most people will say yes, and most will come guest with you as well, because everybody loves PvP. Politeness, and humbleness all help as well. Asking questions has never hurt anybody, and it never will.

EDIT - David summed it up pretty well.

Buddah
10-08-2006, 04:19
So no, player skill is not the answer. The answer is still "both" under the rules of the situation as described earlier.
Actually had you said something on these lines many post ago you would have avoided the quite true accusation that you were ducking the question. It would have been better than creating a third option that in some cases shouldn't apply. Besides a person with good character would have taken the bull by the horns, not tried to sidestep it.

scamPOR
10-08-2006, 05:16
Once again I ask what is more important, the emote or the players skill?

There is not really a good way to answer this question due to the game mechanics. Since almost anyone can get rank 9 with enough time invested, rank cannot be the end all be all. There are no negative incentives for zerging fame which makes it hard to judge player skill when compared to systems like the ELL of a chess player. In chess you lose rating or essentially "delevel", however, in guildwars you keep the emote even if you just now earned r3 and have been playing tombs since release.

That said player skill is more important, but a much harder thing to measure. I have played with awful r11 players who cannot monk for the life of them, yet they are still r11. I'm a little over r10 and have gained my fame from a very diverse range of builds, but I bet if I was playing sb/infuse a r3-6 infuser who only plays that build would be a better infuser.

Player skill cannot really be measured unless you play with the person or they are really well known. Player skill is also game-type specific. If a really good boon prot tries to play infuse or woh he will most likely still be a good monk, but not always as good as he was at boon. The /rank emote is only really used among pugs. I have never seen anyone really care about rank once they know the person. That person is either ranked and good, ranked and bad, or unranked and good, or unranked and bad. If they are bad they don't generally get a re-invite and if they are really good, rank isn't an issue anymore.

The rank discrimination people experience is unranked people expecting to jump right into ranked groups and play without any work of their own. The more you play with people the more you can succeed. There are soooo many people on these forums who think they are the god of guildwars and could own up tombs, but are all unranked. If you are all really that good form a group from the forums and go rule hoh. The level of play in there right now is really quite awful.

David Holtzman
10-08-2006, 05:33
Actually had you said something on these lines many post ago you would have avoided the quite true accusation that you were ducking the question.

I said it was a False Dichotomy, what more do you want? That it is a false choice implies necessarily that it is either incomplete (it was) and/or that it forced an either/or situation where one did not actually exist (this happened too).


It would have been better than creating a third option that in some cases shouldn't apply.

The question of character applies to every single possible scenario in which a person lies to get into a group. Which was really all I came into this thread to address, so I don't see why I ought to address anything but it.


Besides a person with good character would have taken the bull by the horns, not tried to sidestep it.

See? I told you I could predict your next reply.

Mr Dbest
10-08-2006, 18:31
Besides the argument raging above me... =].....I don't know if some or most of these posts are aimed at me negatively....So i will clear this up right now... I m ranked....If you want 2 know the point of this whole thread, go read the last paragraph of the OP.. =]

David Holtzman
10-08-2006, 18:53
Besides the argument raging above me... =].....I don't know if some or most of these posts are aimed at me negatively....So i will clear this up right now... I m ranked....

I don't think your rank or lackthereof has anything to do with what we were talking about. The issue was HOW to gain rank.


If you want 2 know the point of this whole thread, go read the last paragraph of the OP.. =]

I read it. Our discussion was better. The last part of the OP included a foolish wish for the future coupled with a mistaken idea about how PvP should function.

The foolish wish was that it was up to Anet how players formed groups. The idea was perhaps that ANet magically waved their hands and all of a sudden players who cared about rank and skill wouldn't care anymore? Or perhaps skill discrimination would be a bannable offense? I suppose in this case it would be easy to find a group, since the lack of players caused by everyone leaving or being banned would make the survivors awfully desperate.

The mistaken idea was that having "less challenging builds" was a concern at all. I'll answer: it's not a concern and no one should care. A build is a build when it comes to PvP and they all run on the same metric: do they succeed. People run what they do because they like to win. You will never change that. So long as the builds they run continue to win, they will continue to play them. Therefore complaining about build is stupid because it will never get you anywhere. They will always run what they want and not what you want, and you will never be happy if you allow the build choice of others to decide your attitude.

ZiegDivine
10-08-2006, 19:07
I believe I answered your question, using myself as an example. I was r1 up until last week. Now I'm r3. I'm "prospering" in the HA gaming scene (if you judge this by rank, or amount of fame). Now, can I please get back to watching David and Buddah argue?

Mr Dbest
10-08-2006, 19:25
I don't think your rank or lackthereof has anything to do with what we were talking about. The issue was HOW to gain rank.

First of all, this little thread doesn't revolve around you're personal arguments and feuds with other members on this site, so be a little open-minded and realize that i was talking about the posts that came before you, as hard as that may be for you to believe, concerning "Stop Whining and Crying" and such comments....




I read it. Our discussion was better.
Once again, please don't get an overexaggerated opinion of yourself and your posts...


The last part of the OP included a foolish wish for the future coupled with a mistaken idea about how PvP should function.

Please explain to me how "ANEt will manage to allow HA's metagame to propser by increasing the number of participating players", is a foolish wish, and how come a mistaken idea such as reducing the number of less-challenging builds by ANET is such a "crazy idea", seeing as how tehy've stepped in on several occasions to take care of builds such as Minion Factory, etc.



The foolish wish was that it was up to Anet how players formed groups. The idea was perhaps that ANet magically waved their hands and all of a sudden players who cared about rank and skill wouldn't care anymore? Or perhaps skill discrimination would be a bannable offense? I suppose in this case it would be easy to find a group, since the lack of players caused by everyone leaving or being banned would make the survivors awfully desperate.

The mistaken idea was that having "less challenging builds" was a concern at all. I'll answer: it's not a concern and no one should care. A build is a build when it comes to PvP and they all run on the same metric: do they succeed. People run what they do because they like to win. You will never change that. So long as the builds they run continue to win, they will continue to play them. Therefore complaining about build is stupid because it will never get you anywhere. They will always run what they want and not what you want, and you will never be happy if you allow the build choice of others to decide your attitude.

Now, i doubt the fact that you read the last paragraph at all...Besides the fact that rank discrimination was the title of this thread for several different reasons, the thread was not to argue about stopping it, but what it's effect is on the metagame, because of the fact that many unranked players who Can't get into groups because of rank discrimination, have resorted to IWAY to rank up, and as someone stated earlier, this leads them to have little clue about oher builds such as balanced, and they keep resorting to IWAY more and more to rank up...this leads to an excess of IWAY builds that are rampant on the HA scene, and have discouraged other players from starting or continuing HA because of these builds...Now, i feel that this excess of IWAY is having an impact on the metagame, by making rank worthless and driving many players to do GvG, RA/TA, or AB's. ... =]

ZiegDivine
10-08-2006, 19:31
Look, Mr Dbest, this is the fourth time that I'm typing this out. I WAS RANK ONE (read that carefully) UNTIL LAST WEEK. I'M PRETTY SURE THAT QUALIFIES ME AS AN UNEXPERIENCE PLAYER IN HA, OR A "NEWBIE." Okay, now that we've established that, once again, let's take a look at my contacts in HA. In a week I filled up my friend's list with people who would guest me or who would guest with me in an HA group. How is this limiting me? I didn't do IWAY with any of these people, and I don't plan to. We've already ran 4 different builds to get me to r3 in a week. How does this not provide variety in HA?

The truth is that the average player does not want to devote enough time to become good in high-ranked PvP. Until one commits to making more friends, one will have to resort to PuGs. Please, understand this.

Mr Dbest
10-08-2006, 20:02
Look, Mr Dbest, this is the fourth time that I'm typing this out. I WAS RANK ONE (read that carefully) UNTIL LAST WEEK. I'M PRETTY SURE THAT QUALIFIES ME AS AN UNEXPERIENCE PLAYER IN HA, OR A "NEWBIE." Okay, now that we've established that, once again, let's take a look at my contacts in HA. In a week I filled up my friend's list with people who would guest me or who would guest with me in an HA group. How is this limiting me? I didn't do IWAY with any of these people, and I don't plan to. We've already ran 4 different builds to get me to r3 in a week. How does this not provide variety in HA?

The truth is that the average player does not want to devote enough time to become good in high-ranked PvP. Until one commits to making more friends, one will have to resort to PuGs. Please, understand this.

Please, Zieg, let me clarify: I don't care what rank you were, what rank you are, what rank you will be, and how you got your rank....Now, since we've cleared this up, i will just say that i am happy that you got you're rank through non-iway, but this thread isn't about you...this post is about players who have gotten ranked through IWAY because they weren't able to land a group due to rank discrimination, so they keep using IWAY to rank up...once again, this leads to an excess of IWAY, and discourages other players from continuing or starting HA, because of these builds.....

Now, i also wonder what you mean by "average players" don't want to devote enough time...Are you suggesting that ranked players in HA are "above-average"?
And also, please refrain from addressing ppl like children, because it is infuriating to be talked that way by someone who doesn't understand the thread... =]

David Holtzman
10-08-2006, 20:05
First of all, this little thread doesn't revolve around you're personal arguments and feuds with other members on this site, so be a little open-minded and realize that i was talking about the posts that came before you, as hard as that may be for you to believe, concerning "Stop Whining and Crying" and such comments....

First off, I don't have any personal arguments or feuds with anyone on these boards. I'm sure my opponents in this thread believe the same. While I may disagree with them here I argue strenuously for them in other threads. That is the way internet forums work.

Second, this thread most definitely did revolve around my comments, at least for the second half of its existence. That's why half the posts in this thread are either in response to me or responded to by me.


Once again, please don't get an overexaggerated opinion of yourself and your posts...

Our discussion was better because it was constructive and useful. It came to a set of conclusions that have practical application to playing HA in GW. The discussion about the last paragraph of the OP could never be constructive or have any practical result because the premises were so misguided.


Please explain to me how "ANEt will manage to allow HA's metagame to propser by increasing the number of participating players", is a foolish wish,

It's a foolish wish because it hopes for a time when Anet will control who gets into groups. The idea was perhaps that ANet magically waved their hands and all of a sudden players who cared about rank and skill wouldn't care anymore? Or perhaps skill discrimination would be a bannable offense? I suppose in this case it would be easy to find a group, since the lack of players caused by everyone leaving or being banned would make the survivors awfully desperate.


and how come a mistaken idea such as reducing the number of less-challenging builds by ANET is such a "crazy idea", seeing as how tehy've stepped in on several occasions to take care of builds such as Minion Factory, etc.

The mistaken idea is that the "challenge" of a build matters in the slightest. Like many players, you harbor the silly idea that certain builds are better than others not because they are more successful but just because you say so. This totally absurd notion has no place in advanced PvP forms of any kind. Oh, I'm not denying that Anet could nerf to obsolescence any build they choose to. They certainly could theoretically do that. And then they could nerf all the skills in the next flavor build, and the next one after that, ad infinitum ad nauseam.

My point is merely that doing so would be unforgiveably stupid in all respects because such a gesture fails utterly to understand why your so called "unchallenging" builds exist in the first place and why there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.


Now, i doubt the fact that you read the last paragraph at all.

Then you don't know me very well. I always read what I say I read, often many times and very carefully. How else do you think I get the information I use to pick apart your arguments? Magic?


..Besides the fact that rank discrimination was the title of this thread for several different reasons, the thread was not to argue about stopping it, but what it's effect is on the metagame, because of the fact that many unranked players who Can't get into groups because of rank discrimination, have resorted to IWAY to rank up, and as someone stated earlier, this leads them to have little clue about oher builds such as balanced, and they keep resorting to IWAY more and more to rank up...

Its effect on the metagame is... nothing. At all. Oh maybe a few more people play flavor that would otherwise, but how much does that really affect? No, the good players who run flavor would still be doing it for all the same reasons. And the bad players who run whatever it is they run still wouldn't affect the meta much at all, since as bad players they are mostly ignored in the greater scheme of things. Unless they ran some incredibly powerful build. Of course, that powerful build would almost assuredly be a flavor for a variety of reasons, so in the end we see clearly that the effect on the meta is nothing.

As for "resorting to IWAY" don't make me laugh. First, there's nothing wrong with IWAY. I've got plenty of problems with various IWAYers, but the build is sound. A build is a build, after all. Second, no one is forced to resort to anything. With all the people crying over "resorting to IWAY" maybe they should get together and run something else. If they hate doing it so much I would expect to see plenty of them in the Player Match Up forum setting up times and builds. Do you see any of them?


this leads to an excess of IWAY builds that are rampant on the HA scene, and have discouraged other players from starting or continuing HA because of these builds...

Haven't seen so much IWAY of late actually. Lots of NR/Tranq builds and some bloodspikes (an astonishing number of VIMways) but not too many IWAYs. Well, at least compared to the numbers there once were.


Now, i feel that this excess of IWAY is having an impact on the metagame, by making rank worthless and driving many players to do GvG, RA/TA, or AB's. ... =]

Why would IWAY make rank worthless? We're going back to people holding these stupid ideas about builds again. A fame point is always gained in exactly the same way for anyone, regardless of what build they run. And the way they are gained is through success. So, if they have fame and you don't, it stands to reason that they are beating you. And if they are beating you, it seems to me awfully silly to be whining about how you're a better player than they are.

No, the only conclusion is not that IWAY has made rank meaningless but that people hold foolish conceptions about rank. Rank is merely a track record of successful battles. Nothing more, but nothing less. It denotes victory and experience but does not tell a person how skilled the player is or how intelligent.

Parker Bsb
10-08-2006, 20:14
I think some people may need to chill a bit.

What David is saying is correct tho, a build is a build play2win (http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm).

ZiegDivine
10-08-2006, 21:22
Please, Zieg, let me clarify: I don't care what rank you were, what rank you are, what rank you will be, and how you got your rank....Now, since we've cleared this up, i will just say that i am happy that you got you're rank through non-iway, but this thread isn't about you...this post is about players who have gotten ranked through IWAY because they weren't able to land a group due to rank discrimination, so they keep using IWAY to rank up...once again, this leads to an excess of IWAY, and discourages other players from continuing or starting HA, because of these builds.....

Now, i also wonder what you mean by "average players" don't want to devote enough time...Are you suggesting that ranked players in HA are "above-average"?
And also, please refrain from addressing ppl like children, because it is infuriating to be talked that way by someone who doesn't understand the thread... =]

First of all, yes, people who play high-ranked PvP are above the average GW player. Yes, they are more skilled.

Second of all, please do not insult my intelligence. You claim that there is rank discrimination in HA and so people resort to IWAY, which leads to more and more IWAY discouraging people from playing HA. Now ... read carefully, once again. I was a new player in HA, and I was not discouraged by IWAY. I am an example that rank descrimination in HA doesn't exist. I prove this thread wrong by simply playing the game. The only groups in HA which require a rank, are PuGs who got their rank through IWAY, or simply bored people. Most of the people who play and WIN in HA are groups of friends and guilds, where rank does not matter, and rank descrimination doesn't exist. It's a fantasy. It's not a problem. This is my last post in this topic, address it or not, it doesn't matter, if you refuse to understand, or even attempt to understand me, so be it.

Mr Dbest
10-08-2006, 21:29
First off, I don't have any personal arguments or feuds with anyone on these boards. I'm sure my opponents in this thread believe the same. While I may disagree with them here I argue strenuously for them in other threads. That is the way internet forums work.

Agreed


Second, this thread most definitely did revolve around my comments, at least for the second half of its existence. That's why half the posts in this thread are either in response to me or responded to by me.

Our discussion was better because it was constructive and useful. It came to a set of conclusions that have practical application to playing HA in GW.

Yes, the second part of the thread did revolve around you, but not because of constructiveness, as you would like to believe, but because you both were chasing each other trying to get the last shot in...to illustrate my point, one of your quotes regarding ethics and "ducking" questions brought htis into play~ "Do you think the sky is green or red?"... Explain to me the constructiveness of these posts...




It's a foolish wish because it hopes for a time when Anet will control who gets into groups. The idea was perhaps that ANet magically waved their hands and all of a sudden players who cared about rank and skill wouldn't care anymore? Or perhaps skill discrimination would be a bannable offense? I suppose in this case it would be easy to find a group, since the lack of players caused by everyone leaving or being banned would make the survivors awfully desperate.

I do not understand y you keep finding foolishness in Anet bringing more people onto HA scene...unless you believe that i was saying they should form groups for us, your comments are misguided and erronous...I'm sure that most people would like to see some new blood on the HA scene, people who would like to try something different from RA/TA, AB, PvE, etc....This is why i believe that Anet should take steps to broadening the appeal of HA...


The mistaken idea is that the "challenge" of a build matters in the slightest. Like many players, you harbor the silly idea that certain builds are better than others not because they are more successful but just because you say so. This totally absurd notion has no place in advanced PvP forms of any kind. Oh, I'm not denying that Anet could nerf to obsolescence any build they choose to. They certainly could theoretically do that. And then they could nerf all the skills in the next flavor build, and the next one after that, ad infinitum ad nauseam.

Lol, your sarcasm adds a fresh appeal to this thread, i must agree... Once again, don't group me with "many players" in this discussion...Direct the quote at me, not others who are not involved....Yes i harbor a "silly idea" that IWAY is not as challenging because of the lack of coordination and skill involved...No voice communication or coordination is needed, which is required in most other builds.....So am i wrong to believe that it is "less challenging"...And stop feeding quotes into my mouth...No where have i addressed the success rate of IWAY...I've only discussed it's effect on the metagame...


My point is merely that doing so would be unforgiveably stupid in all respects because such a gesture fails utterly to understand why your so called "unchallenging" builds exist in the first place and why there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.

They exist because of the fact that they are unchallenging to play, letting ppl with no experience in HA to play them and win....That's why there is "absolutely nothing wrong with them", because they give new ppl a chance to learn about the HA scene with a competent build.....Now the problem is that these people don't stop playing IWAY after a while, when they should be picking up other skills and build ideas...Instead they stick with this certain build to grind, and never venture off of its path....



Then you don't know me very well. I always read what I say I read, often many times and very carefully. How else do you think I get the information I use to pick apart your arguments? Magic?

Despite your fascination with magic, no, you did not address the idea of the thread...You ventured into saying that my foolish wish was for ANet to form groups for us...Where the h*** has that ever been brought up? And then you went on to say that "So long as the builds they run continue to win, they will continue to play them." Yes, that is true, unless ANet steps in, like, once again, Minion Factory, etc.




Its effect on the metagame is... nothing. At all. Oh maybe a few more people play flavor that would otherwise, but how much does that really affect? No, the good players who run flavor would still be doing it for all the same reasons. And the bad players who run whatever it is they run still wouldn't affect the meta much at all, since as bad players they are mostly ignored in the greater scheme of things. Unless they ran some incredibly powerful build. Of course, that powerful build would almost assuredly be a flavor for a variety of reasons, so in the end we see clearly that the effect on the meta is nothing.

No, your reasoning is wrong...You are making "good" players out to be the majority in HA....Your so-called "bad" players make up most of the HA scene, and they prefer to run builds such as IWAY...So yes, it will most defintiely make a impact on the metagame.....


As for "resorting to IWAY" don't make me laugh. First, there's nothing wrong with IWAY. I've got plenty of problems with various IWAYers, but the build is sound. A build is a build, after all. Second, no one is forced to resort to anything. With all the people crying over "resorting to IWAY" maybe they should get together and run something else. If they hate doing it so much I would expect to see plenty of them in the Player Match Up forum setting up times and builds. Do you see any of them?

You're so misguided in the fact that you believe that everyone knows what you do....Lol, do you seriously believe that someone who is playing IWAY is going to come onto this site and make a appointment with someone to play? That takes more time and coordination than making an IWAY group......There are several Guild Wars sites out there, and you expect most people to go to an obscure forum to make groups? And yes, you're right, the build is sound. Very sound. But that doesn't mean anything if the players running it can use it to grind without learning much about advanced PvP...


Haven't seen so much IWAY of late actually. Lots of NR/Tranq builds and some bloodspikes (an astonishing number of VIMways) but not too many IWAYs. Well, at least compared to the numbers there once were.

Really, i don't care if you haven't seen many IWAY groups...They are still out there, and other groups such as VIM are following the same principle of lack of coordination and voice communication...





Why would IWAY make rank worthless? We're going back to people holding these stupid ideas about builds again. A fame point is always gained in exactly the same way for anyone, regardless of what build they run. And the way they are gained is through success. So, if they have fame and you don't, it stands to reason that they are beating you. And if they are beating you, it seems to me awfully silly to be whining about how you're a better player than they are.

No, the only conclusion is not that IWAY has made rank meaningless but that people hold foolish conceptions about rank. Rank is merely a track record of successful battles. Nothing more, but nothing less. It denotes victory and experience but does not tell a person how skilled the player is or how intelligent.

Rank is meaningless....If, as you say it's a measure of success, it's inconsequential because of the fact that it doesn't relay the measure of unsuccesses the person has...A succes record is nothing without it's opposite, it's yang, failures...And that's why rank is meaningless, even with your idea of it as a measure of wins... =]

Mr Dbest
10-08-2006, 21:40
First of all, yes, people who play high-ranked PvP are above the average GW player. Yes, they are more skilled.

I m sure a lot of ppl disagree with you..I'll let them rip your argument to shreds....Unfortunately, we are on an HA forum, so it might take a while....


Second of all, please do not insult my intelligence. You claim that there is rank discrimination in HA and so people resort to IWAY, which leads to more and more IWAY discouraging people from playing HA. Now ... read carefully, once again. I was a new player in HA, and I was not discouraged by IWAY. I am an example that rank descrimination in HA doesn't exist. I prove this thread wrong by simply playing the game. The only groups in HA which require a rank, are PuGs who got their rank through IWAY, or simply bored people. Most of the people who play and WIN in HA are groups of friends and guilds, where rank does not matter, and rank descrimination doesn't exist. It's a fantasy. It's not a problem. This is my last post in this topic, address it or not, it doesn't matter, if you refuse to understand, or even attempt to understand me, so be it.

Do not insult my intelligence...Rank discrimination does exist, so please stop denying it.....Second, you are either an exception or the majority, i don't care, but it still doesn't address the fact that people are resorting to IWAY to rank up and people are leaving or not joining the HA scene because of this...O ya parker sry 4 double post...And Zieg, on a happy note, I didn't get 2 r3 with IWAY either, but instead through 1/2 PUG n 1/2 Flsit... =]

Sadistic Nightmare
10-08-2006, 21:54
May I ask, why do you have so much hate against Iway? What skill, was there when it came to Air Spiking, Ranger Spike, Ether Renewal Dual Smite, and now these so called balance builds? Do you not realize Iway is a balance build now?

I don't reallly think non Iway builds have cordination because they still loose against Iway. You talk about Iway having lack of skill? Explain to me, and this is your homework lil girl - How much skill is there when it comes to spamming buttons 1 and 2 and occasionally 3 and 4.

In the end, I rather take a rank 9 Iwayer, who hopefully knows every HA map then some rank 1-2 kid who has never won in scarred earth or even been past it.

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IMO HA is all about, how much of a peoples person you are. Being able to speak up and not be a weeny, is the key to success in HA. Pugs dont cut it, I dont understand why anyone wastes time on pugs. Once you get a good solid friends list, the road of becoming "good" in HA, becomes a lot more smoother.

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Do not insult my intelligence...Rank discrimination does exist, so please stop denying it.....Second, you are either an exception or the majority, i don't care, but it still doesn't address the fact that people are resorting to IWAY to rank up and people are leaving or not joining the HA scene because of this...O ya parker sry 4 double post...And Zieg, on a happy note, I didn't get 2 r3 with IWAY either, but instead through 1/2 PUG n 1/2 Flsit... =]

Rank discrimination only exists if you are only of those kids who expect everything to be handed to them in a silver platter. People only resort to playing Iway because its a build that can win with a regular pug. The only reason why you'd resort playing the devils build Iway, if you are a lazy kid who cannot make their own group.

On a side note.. all my 1900 fame has been through Iway. No "balance", no air spike, no spirit spam, no dual smites, no nr/tranq ect. Just IWAY.

VIVA IWAY:afro:

Mr Dbest
10-08-2006, 22:05
On a side note.. all my 1900 fame has been through Iway. No "balance", no air spike, no spirit spam, no dual smites, no nr/tranq ect. Just IWAY.VIVA IWAY:afro:


David and Zieg, this is exactly my point...

Sadistic Nightmare
10-08-2006, 22:12
David and Zieg, this is exactly my point...

rofl.

Whats your point..?

Your posts seem to suggest that people have a gun to their head and for being rank 0 they HAVE to play Iway or else they'll get their brains blown and have the pics posted somewhere on the internet.

David and Zieg are on the most part, correct in their comments and opinions.

Phoenixtech
10-08-2006, 22:41
First of all, yes, people who play high-ranked PvP are above the average GW player. Yes, they are more skilled.

I am an example that rank descrimination in HA doesn't exist. I prove this thread wrong by simply playing the game. The only groups in HA which require a rank, are PuGs who got their rank through IWAY, or simply bored people. Most of the people who play and WIN in HA are groups of friends and guilds, where rank does not matter, and rank descrimination doesn't exist. It's a fantasy. It's not a problem. This is my last post in this topic, address it or not, it doesn't matter, if you refuse to understand, or even attempt to understand me, so be it.

Zieg, ever consider yourself to be LUCKY and have connections that was able to GET you into groups as unranked in the first place? That might not be the situation for most people. I'm sure there's alot of people that WANT to win but can't because they do not have the same connections as you do. An analogie would be to say back in the 1960s that racial discrimination doesn't exist because you've never faced it as a white person. Actually, that analogie would prob still hold up today to a lesser extent.

David Holtzman
10-08-2006, 23:02
Yes, the second part of the thread did revolve around you, but not because of constructiveness, as you would like to believe, but because you both were chasing each other trying to get the last shot in

Nah, I never try for the last shot and I'm fairly sure neither does my opponent. The situation was confusing because I provided an answer I thought was good but he didn't feel the answer was thorough enough and it took like 5 posts to figure that miscommunication out.


...to illustrate my point, one of your quotes regarding ethics and "ducking" questions brought htis into play~ "Do you think the sky is green or red?"... Explain to me the constructiveness of these posts...

That is a special tool called an Analogy. That is where I make a comparison of: A is to B as C is to D. Through analogy you can focus easily on points that would otherwise be obscure.


I do not understand y you keep finding foolishness in Anet bringing more people onto HA scene

You misunderstand. I don't find it foolish for Anet to bring more people in, because they don't. What I find foolish is that you think Anet has any sort of say as to who gets in groups or not. When I make a group are you under the impression that I call Seattle to have them check that my teammates match their standards? Do you think Anet can magically wave their hands and all of a sudden I'd be happy to play in r3 pugs? That I'd invite 'em to come along with us? Do you think that what sort of builds are out there makes any difference at ALL what sort of players I like to play with?

I think it's foolish because by saying "Anet fix it!" all you do is prove to me you have no idea how these sort of things work. These are not problems Anet can solve. To be honest they're not even problems.


Lol, your sarcasm adds a fresh appeal to this thread, i must agree... Once again, don't group me with "many players" in this discussion...Direct the quote at me, not others who are not involved....

On the contrary, I will continue to write as impersonally as possible. Getting personal is stupid to do in a debate because it causes tensions. And of course I was trying to be accurate. It is not merely yourself who holds this sort of idea, it is in fact the vast majority of players.


Yes i harbor a "silly idea" that IWAY is not as challenging because of the lack of coordination and skill involved...No voice communication or coordination is needed, which is required in most other builds.....So am i wrong to believe that it is "less challenging"

I never said you were wrong to believe IWAY was "less challenging", I said you were silly to think that mattered at all.


...And stop feeding quotes into my mouth...No where have i addressed the success rate of IWAY...I've only discussed it's effect on the metagame...

That you think the two are distinct proves to me you do not understand either. The metagame is formed from successful builds. If a build is not successful then it doesn't enter the metagame. The two are inextricably intertwined. You cannot endeavor to discuss one while ignoring the other.


They exist because of the fact that they are unchallenging to play, letting ppl with no experience in HA to play them and win....That's why there is "absolutely nothing wrong with them", because they give new ppl a chance to learn about the HA scene with a competent build.....

No, the reason nothing is wrong with them is because a build is a build. There is no reason to favor one build over another aside from their success rate.


Now the problem is that these people don't stop playing IWAY after a while, when they should be picking up other skills and build ideas...Instead they stick with this certain build to grind, and never venture off of its path....

Should? Who are you to dictate to them how they should play? Maybe they want to play IWAY? Maybe they like it and don't want to change?


Despite your fascination with magic, no, you did not address the idea of the thread...You ventured into saying that my foolish wish was for ANet to form groups for us...Where the h*** has that ever been brought up? And then you went on to say that "So long as the builds they run continue to win, they will continue to play them." Yes, that is true, unless ANet steps in, like, once again, Minion Factory, etc.

Aside from Lulu's teams from 17months ago, I don't think Minion Factory ever won a game. And certainly not consistent winning. And besides, the question was how to get into groups. You are of the idea that by nerfing builds Anet can affect who gets into groups. What you fail to recognize is that Anet can only affect what is played, not who plays with whom. Your argument to nerf certain builds would only result in the same people playing a different build, not in those people playing with different groups.


No, your reasoning is wrong...You are making "good" players out to be the majority in HA....Your so-called "bad" players make up most of the HA scene, and they prefer to run builds such as IWAY...So yes, it will most defintiely make a impact on the metagame.....

But we are not talking about impact on the meta, we are talking about players entering into new groups and new players joining and THAT'S affect on the meta. Are you asking me if I'd like to talk about things that have an impact on the meta in general? Because no, I don't want to. You made it very clear you wanted to discuss your particulas issue, so here I am doing it. I surely ain't changing now.


You're so misguided in the fact that you believe that everyone knows what you do....Lol, do you seriously believe that someone who is playing IWAY is going to come onto this site and make a appointment with someone to play?

If they don't want to play IWAY? Then yes, I do think so. If they are serious about their commitment then they need to take steps to ensure its success. That may include coming here to set up with new people.


But that doesn't mean anything if the players running it can use it to grind without learning much about advanced PvP...

On the contrary, it means a great deal. For instance it means they don't HAVE to learn about advanced PvP. Advanced PvP is not for everyone. In fact, it's not for most people.


Rank is meaningless....If, as you say it's a measure of success, it's inconsequential because of the fact that it doesn't relay the measure of unsuccesses the person has...A succes record is nothing without it's opposite, it's yang, failures...And that's why rank is meaningless, even with your idea of it as a measure of wins... =]

No, it has a meaning. It may not mean what you'd LIKE it to mean, but it does mean SOMETHING. As I said, it is a record of experience and success. That's why good players tend to have rank in great amounts, because they're very successful.

Mr Dbest
11-08-2006, 00:00
Nah, I never try for the last shot and I'm fairly sure neither does my opponent. The situation was confusing because I provided an answer I thought was good but he didn't feel the answer was thorough enough and it took like 5 posts to figure that miscommunication out.


That is a special tool called an Analogy. That is where I make a comparison of: A is to B as C is to D. Through analogy you can focus easily on points that would otherwise be obscure.

Once again, you totally elude the point of the comment...We are aware that it's an analogy, but in your previous posts, you declared that your posts were constructive, but here you state that you spent around 5 posts discussing a miscommunication.......




You misunderstand. I don't find it foolish for Anet to bring more people in, because they don't. What I find foolish is that you think Anet has any sort of say as to who gets in groups or not. When I make a group are you under the impression that I call Seattle to have them check that my teammates match their standards? Do you think Anet can magically wave their hands and all of a sudden I'd be happy to play in r3 pugs? That I'd invite 'em to come along with us? Do you think that what sort of builds are out there makes any difference at ALL what sort of players I like to play with?

Why do you keep going on and on about ANet imposing restrictions on rank discrimination and who gets into groups? I want more people on the HA scene period...I don't care if you want them in your group or not...I just want fresh blood out on the HA scene, and you seem to have a problem with it...You keep making sarcastic and childish remarks about magic, yet you can't understand that all i want is more ppl coming to HA...and no one here can make it happen, only Anet...


I think it's foolish because by saying "Anet fix it!" all you do is prove to me you have no idea how these sort of things work. These are not problems Anet can solve. To be honest they're not even problems.

Alright, then who do i go to? Definitely not you, since you seem to want to shoot down any idea that comes about new ppl arriving on the scene. If people are being driven away from HA, it's Anet's problem as well as us who HA, and they must address it....And frankly, i don't give a d*** what you think of me, because it still doesn't change the fact that there are problems out there in HA, and if i don't know how "these things work" and you do, you still won't do anything...




On the contrary, I will continue to write as impersonally as possible. Getting personal is stupid to do in a debate because it causes tensions. And of course I was trying to be accurate. It is not merely yourself who holds this sort of idea, it is in fact the vast majority of players.

Alright, same here...And no, you're wrong, I am not just saying so, i have stated my reasons for why i believe it's less-challenging....




I never said you were wrong to believe IWAY was "less challenging", I said you were silly to think that mattered at all.

No, you're silly to believe that the challenge didn't matter, because frankly it does...As you have previously stated, we are in advanced PvP, and the challenge should be higher...




That you think the two are distinct proves to me you do not understand either. The metagame is formed from successful builds. If a build is not successful then it doesn't enter the metagame. The two are inextricably intertwined. You cannot endeavor to discuss one while ignoring the other.

No, you're the one who doesn't understand...the fact that you can't differentiate the success of a build versus its affect on the metagame is silly...IWAY is successful, we acknowledge that, but it's effect on the metagame is that it is driving ppl away from HA, causing them to play other forms of PvP...




No, the reason nothing is wrong with them is because a build is a build. There is no reason to favor one build over another aside from their success rate.

Don't kid yourself...We all pick builds based on our preference, and then on success rate...With that reasoning, everyone would be running IWAY and experimental builds would never be used, just because their "success rate" is too low...For example, ppl who like to play WoH won't pick NR/Tran or IWAY, despite their success rate....



Should? Who are you to dictate to them how they should play? Maybe they want to play IWAY? Maybe they like it and don't want to change?

I'll say w.e the h*** i want...You take it as you want....Ya, maybe they want to play IWAY, and rank up like that, and I'm alrite with it......But when it creates excess IWAY and they're sprouting everywhere is when i have a problem....And i can't believe you suggest that they "don't want to change"....we're in advanced PvP....Change is our life, because there is no best build, so we must constantly be on our toes, changing to the situation....That's why i hate IWAY...It doesn't teach flexibility and change when you use it over and over....




Aside from Lulu's teams from 17months ago, I don't think Minion Factory ever won a game. And certainly not consistent winning. And besides, the question was how to get into groups. You are of the idea that by nerfing builds Anet can affect who gets into groups. What you fail to recognize is that Anet can only affect what is played, not who plays with whom. Your argument to nerf certain builds would only result in the same people playing a different build, not in those people playing with different groups.

Don't be silly...of course minion factory won games...Denying it is stupid.....Obviously, Anet felt it was a threat since they nerfed it....And no, i don't care who gets into groups...I'm just for more ppl coming to HA, period...



But we are not talking about impact on the meta, we are talking about players entering into new groups and new players joining and THAT'S affect on the meta. Are you asking me if I'd like to talk about things that have an impact on the meta in general? Because no, I don't want to. You made it very clear you wanted to discuss your particulas issue, so here I am doing it. I surely ain't changing now.

You brought the subject of "good" and "bad" players up, so don't pass the buck to me, making it seem like i brought it up....I've only been tlaking about my issue and you are the one who has strayed....




If they don't want to play IWAY? Then yes, I do think so. If they are serious about their commitment then they need to take steps to ensure its success. That may include coming here to set up with new people.

Once again, i don't care if you "think so"....Others don't and they will not come because they want to play IWAY because of it's ability to gain fame fast, which is the problem.....




On the contrary, it means a great deal. For instance it means they don't HAVE to learn about advanced PvP. Advanced PvP is not for everyone. In fact, it's not for most people.

HA is an advanced arena...the players should be able to play advanced PvP....I don't know y you are against people learning to play it.....Any build that let's you win without learning about Advanced PvP, such as IWAY, is a reason of itself to be done with....





No, it has a meaning. It may not mean what you'd LIKE it to mean, but it does mean SOMETHING. As I said, it is a record of experience and success. That's why good players tend to have rank in great amounts, because they're very successful.

High ranked players of course are experienced, but rank is a joke...It just unneccessarily creates boundaries for groups, and it is a mere shadow of its previous worth......As i've said before, rank is meaningless because of the fact that it's missing it's opposite, a measure of failures, and the fact that people put so much faith in it is the base of it's problems.... =]

David Holtzman
11-08-2006, 05:12
Once again, you totally elude the point of the comment...We are aware that it's an analogy, but in your previous posts, you declared that your posts were constructive, but here you state that you spent around 5 posts discussing a miscommunication.......

It was a problem. I was fixing it. Don't you consider fixing problems constructive? Seems to me that's the very definition of being constructive.


Why do you keep going on and on about ANet imposing restrictions on rank discrimination and who gets into groups?

Because that was your whole point? And because I disagree with it and therefore need to explain to you why, because I doubt you're willing to take my say-so on it?


I want more people on the HA scene period...

Oh, is that it? That part is easy: change maps. Especially halls.


I don't care if you want them in your group or not...

What! Of course you care. You mean to tell me you made a giant thread about Rank Discrimination and even went out of your way to post the title and then expect me to believe you don't care?!


I just want fresh blood out on the HA scene, and you seem to have a problem with it...You keep making sarcastic and childish remarks about magic, yet you can't understand that all i want is more ppl coming to HA...and no one here can make it happen, only Anet...

Here we go with the silly ideas again. I don't know exactly how to explain this so you will understand. I've been over this 4 times now. Well, I'll try capslock:

ANET HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON GROUP SELECTION, INCLUDING RANK DISCRIMINATION. EVEN IF ANET NERFS THE BUILDS YOU WOULD LIKE THEM TO NERF, IT WON'T DO A BLESSED THING.


Alright, then who do i go to?

You go to the new player base and you find out what would motivate them to tomb. And then you tell them what they need to do to be decent players that will actually be able to play.


Definitely not you, since you seem to want to shoot down any idea that comes about new ppl arriving on the scene.

Well, I don't know about you, but I've written 3 published guides on these forums and collaborated on a 4th. I think I'm doing MY part to helping new players. I'm just shooting down your ideas because they're bad. You have two idea, and both are bad. It's not as if you're coming up with 30 here.


If people are being driven away from HA, it's Anet's problem as well as us who HA, and they must address it....And frankly, i don't give a d*** what you think of me, because it still doesn't change the fact that there are problems out there in HA, and if i don't know how "these things work" and you do, you still won't do anything...

Oh, I do plenty, just look above. And players aren't BEING driven from HA, they WERE driven from HA. And that was a good, oh, 6 or 8 months ago? Right after ANET categorically refused to nerf IWAY and it exploded to the point that we were literally fighting IWAY every match in a 4 hour holding run. The majority of players left then and the gain of new GW players is nowhere near enough to fill the gaps they left.


Alright, same here...And no, you're wrong, I am not just saying so, i have stated my reasons for why i believe it's less-challenging....

I'm wrong that players other than you hold your silly beliefs? Nah, I'm not. Just look through my post history and you'll see plenty of times where I've addressed these sort of issues before. As for being less challenging, you don't seem to realize my point. I've said it a good four times now, so
let's go for caps again:

I DO NOT CARE WHATSOEVER ABOUT WHICH BUILDS YOU FEEL ARE CHALLENGING ENOUGH. I DO NOT CARE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT MATTER IN THE SLIGHTEST WITH REGARDS TO ANYTHING BUT YOUR SPECIAL MADE UP RULE SYSTEM THAT YOU SEEM TO HAVE THE ABSURD BELIEF SHOULD BE APPLIED TO GW IN GENERAL.


No, you're silly to believe that the challenge didn't matter, because frankly it does...As you have previously stated, we are in advanced PvP, and the challenge should be higher...

Nope, sorry, challenge doesn't count for beans. I've yet to see the guild that won free travel for running something hard. I've yet to see the halls game lost because the game decided their build was more challenging than yours. I've never killed an enemy guild lord to see the message "Defeat: Their build pwns j00". I've never won streaks in RA because our build was harder to use than theirs was. No, the only rational conclusion is that challenge matters slightly less than the color dye you used on your boots.


No, you're the one who doesn't understand...the fact that you can't differentiate the success of a build versus its affect on the metagame is silly...IWAY is successful, we acknowledge that, but it's effect on the metagame is that it is driving ppl away from HA, causing them to play other forms of PvP...

Er... you do know you just proved my point, right? My point was that the two were intertwined, and your response was a statement categorically addressing precisely what I said would need to be addressed to have any sort of discussion on the matter.


Don't kid yourself...We all pick builds based on our preference, and then on success rate...

Eh? I've yet to see the top guild say, "Guys my build sucks, but since my preferences count for more than results I'm going to keep on keepin' on with my EleWar Backbreaker bar." No, on the contrary, and top guild that doesn't set its standards as results never achieves top status. The only way to play effectively is to play to win, not to play for preferences.


With that reasoning, everyone would be running IWAY and experimental builds would never be used, just because their "success rate" is too low...For example, ppl who like to play WoH won't pick NR/Tran or IWAY, despite their success rate....

Nope, simple failure in analysis here. Good teams are constantly experimenting because they know it is the only way to be successful. Stagnation leads to defeat, not victory. Ask WM about it, or EW, or iB or any top guild. And recall that not all experimentation is about changing builds. A lot can be changed with tactical experimentation.


I'll say w.e the h*** i want...

Proving me right again I see. I thank you for it, but isn't it awfully silly to do from your side of the sand? Anyways, that's exactly my point. I can't tell you what to say because you don't care what I say. And the exact same thing goes for those players you're trying to motivate. See, they don't care what you say any more than you care about what I say. And that's why they're going to keep on running whatever they want, and not whatever you want them to run.


You take it as you want....Ya, maybe they want to play IWAY, and rank up like that, and I'm alrite with it......But when it creates excess IWAY and they're sprouting everywhere is when i have a problem

Ah, I get it now. The old, "You can play whatever you want to until I decide you can't" argument. Very convincing, that one. The only flaw in your strategy is the remote chance that they don't give a care about what you think or want.


....And i can't believe you suggest that they "don't want to change"....we're in advanced PvP....Change is our life, because there is no best build, so we must constantly be on our toes, changing to the situation....That's why i hate IWAY...It doesn't teach flexibility and change when you use it over and over....

You must not watch IWAY very well then. I was there when CBX started taking halls with IWAY for the fist time, and I played with MATH a few weeks ago. If you don't think IWAY has changed then you are living in a dream world. IWAY went from Glyph healers and necros to trappers to martyr to rits. They went from Tainted necros to Apostasy necros. They went from Martyr to Lively was Naomi. They went from no interrupts to Psychic Distraction and Seeking arrows. They went from QZ to NR. They went from no healing to dual Infuse Necros. You think IWAY doesn't change because it still has 4 warriors? Guess what, there used to 8 in the old Dual Smite days. You don't think IWAY adapts? Wake up.


Don't be silly...of course minion factory won games...

Oh yes they did, absolutely. 17 months ago. When Lulu ran it. I think this was even before he joined Te, although I can't be sure.


Denying it is stupid.....Obviously, Anet felt it was a threat since they nerfed it....

Absolutely was a threat, I agree. In alliance battles, which you'll please note is not quite the same thing as Tombs. Inconvenient fact that one, eh?


And no, i don't care who gets into groups...

Eh? What happened to talking about Rank Discrimination? Have we stopped that?


I'm just for more ppl coming to HA, period...

Good. On this we agree. I'll make you a deal. You start up the framework for a guide to entering HA for new players and I'll collaborate on it with you.


You brought the subject of "good" and "bad" players up, so don't pass the buck to me, making it seem like i brought it up....I've only been tlaking about my issue and you are the one who has strayed....

Er... are you reading what you're quoting? Because nowhere in the paragraph you responded to did I say a thing about good or bad players. I was talking about new players entering groups and the affect of this on the metagame. (In case you were curious the answer was it has no affect at all).


Once again, i don't care if you "think so"....

Might I recommend that if you don't care what I think you don't open questions with, "Do you think..." or some synonym? It tends to be a bit confusing.


Others don't and they will not come because they want to play IWAY because of it's ability to gain fame fast, which is the problem.....

Gaining fame fast is a problem? You gain fame by winning, so are you saying winning is a problem? Winning isn't a problem, it's the whole point of the game!


HA is an advanced arena...

If you say so....


the players should be able to play advanced PvP....I don't know y you are against people learning to play it.....Any build that let's you win without learning about Advanced PvP, such as IWAY, is a reason of itself to be done with....

Nope, it's not. Not learning is only a valid reason if you have learning as one of your goals. If you don't then who cares whether you learn or not? That's like saying IWAY is a bad build because you can't Milk Cows with it. That alone should be a reason to not play IWAY. If a build ain't Milking Cows, it's doing something wrong.


High ranked players of course are experienced, but rank is a joke

If it's a joke, why are we having such a problem with it?


It just unneccessarily creates boundaries for groups,

Not unneccessary. Neccessary because people need SOME way to restrict people based on experience, and better rank than some other contrived by the playerbase system. Of course, with friends list we have a playerbase derived system, but that is a separate issue.


and it is a mere shadow of its previous worth.

Hm. Which do you think was worth more, the rank you got from 8 wammoway or the rank from spirit spam? Oh yes, plenty of previous worth to rank. :rolleyes:


.....As i've said before, rank is meaningless because of the fact that it's missing it's opposite, a measure of failures, and the fact that people put so much faith in it is the base of it's problems.... =]

Yes, you said it before. But just as before you have missed the point. The point was that I can't seem to get across is what the word "meaning" means with regards to rank. You are confusing "meaning that I would like it to have but it does not" with "not actualy having any meaning". Perhaps the word you are looking for is Value? Or Worth? No, rank means exactly what I said it means. And, in fact, what you've said it means as well. It may not be a great or powerful meaning, but its still a meaning.

Buddah
11-08-2006, 05:34
Now, can I please get back to watching David and Buddah argue?
Looks like we have a fan.



Aside from Lulu's teams from 17months ago, I don't think Minion Factory ever won a game. And certainly not consistent winning.


It hit at the right time though. Since the early balanced groups were still dominate and the various flavor of the months were just emerging few knew what to make of it. Worst part of it was when the MF got parked on the altar. The press of bodies kept anyone else from capping alone.

I was more suprised to see Minion Factory hung around the way it did in the metagame. Dual Smite with Ether Prodigy did a number to it. IWAY alone had its number almost everytime without even attacking thanks to EoE.

David Holtzman
11-08-2006, 05:40
Looks like we have a fan.

It's because we make such a cute couple. By the way, it's your turn to wear the dress.


It hit at the right time though. Since the early balanced groups were still dominate and the various flavor of the months were just emerging few knew what to make of it. Worst part of it was when the MF got parked on the altar. The press of bodies kept anyone else from capping alone.

Oh yeah, MF was just awful back then. Of course these days we'd just laugh and say Choking gas gg or dual smite gg or bloodspike gg. I guess IWAY would have a hard time.


I was more suprised to see Minion Factory hung around the way it did in the metagame. Dual Smite with Ether Prodigy did a number to it. IWAY alone had its number almost everytime without even attacking thanks to EoE.

Well, MF was always kinda cute, but after the beta nerfs it was never really a real build in the sense of winning consistently.

Sadistic Nightmare
11-08-2006, 05:43
Mr Dbest, could I ask you. Whats your reaction when a ranked group wont let you join their group..?

Savsuds
11-08-2006, 06:06
Mr Dbest, could I ask you. Whats your reaction when a ranked group wont let you join their group..?
My response is thank you for replying and good luck winning Halls. No reason not to be polite. But I also rarely get denied acceptance, since I am polite and use full structured sentences when pm'ing groups looking for people.

Mr Dbest
11-08-2006, 06:11
Mr Dbest, could I ask you. Whats your reaction when a ranked group wont let you join their group..?

Nothing, because I am ranked and i start my own groups...

Sadistic Nightmare
11-08-2006, 06:39
My response is thank you for replying and good luck winning Halls. No reason not to be polite. But I also rarely get denied acceptance, since I am polite and use full structured sentences when pm'ing groups looking for people.

Thats typically mine.

See the only reason why I ask is because, most kids who arent accepted start flaming the group leader by calling him an iwayer *shudders* and some other dumb things.


]Nothing, because I am ranked and i start my own groups...

then are you one of those people who discriminate lower ranked people?

Ace Bear
11-08-2006, 06:43
God stop responding to each sentence. Makes three posts brain damaging. Just say this(standard HA conversation):
player1:"Your dumb"
player2:"No your dumb"
1:"Shut up or I will hax you to death"
3:"IWAY LF 4 wars r3++"
2:*Virus Scan comes on*
4:"Does anyone have any booze?"
2:"What are you doing to my computer"
5:"I ate some bugs, I ate some grass, I use my hands, to wipe my..tears."
1: "I pwn"

Then one of you log off of Gwonline.net screaming you will report the other.

Sorry for using so many capital letters and at least half decent grammar, but at least I left out the punctuation heh.

Savsuds
11-08-2006, 07:12
I forgot to add, I am rank 3 also, but prefer to have my little PvE titles turned on more often. I am kinda proud of my monk's Skill Hunter 1 title, My necro's Protector of Cantha title (proving I can MM all of the Canthan Missions), etc...

Aiiane
11-08-2006, 08:02
Hmm....

Mr Dbest, let's try something simple then.

If ANet can take action to fix grouping in HA, how can they do it? You seem to be fairly sure they can, so you must have some idea of how they'd go about it.

Tyrus FTW
11-08-2006, 18:13
Im sure this has been asked a million times but tbh im sick of sifting throught he random junk that the search button classifies as results.

Im rank 1 and have been for some time, I get the odd bit of fame from the random PUG, but ive never been futher then the 2nd alter match (whatever its called, only been there once so I dont know).

I hear all these stories of how high ranked players help out low or rankless players and "take them under their wing"

As a rank 1 player the only groups I can find are those not really worth playing with. Ive tried looking for HA guilds ingame, but all I get is "r3/6/9 only" despite the fact that im an experienced pvp player with 270k earned through gvg, TA and RA.

Im desperate to get to a higher rank, but most of all I want to learn more about HA and the HoH.

Id like to join a HA only guild, but of course due to my rank this isnt an easy thing to do.


So if any HA only guilds that are established (eg NOT formed an hour ago and promises an officer spot to the first 5 people to join, etc) and experienced and of course willing to teach a HA noob, I am willing to learn and have fun!

If anyone considers it, my IGN is Tyrus The Barbarian


Tyrus

ZiegDivine
11-08-2006, 18:56
Two threads down somebody asked how I established my contact list, and got to r3 in a week. This is my response:


I did in the first page. I made friends. It all started out when I joined sP about a week and a half ago. I rolled with a guild group, but we had a couple guests. The guests and the guild saw that I knew what I was talking about even though I was r1 (at the time). I quote a guildie over vent "listen to this guy, he knows his ****." I'm not bragging, I'm just showing that I was able to impress people with my r1 "skill." Those guests later whispered me if I wanted to come HA with them, and I made a couple more friends in that group. I also pugged with a couple guild groups, who now whisper me on a regular basis (at least once a day) to come HA or GvG with them. It's all about talking to people, and showing them that even though you're less of a rank than they are, you know the game fairly well.

As it is right now, my friend's list is full, most of the people are above r6, with a few r11s in there. I accomplished this in a week. I'm sure others can too.

Another point is that people skills help. If you want to add somebody to your friend's list, but are unsure if they would appreciate a whisper later on, whisper them right them, and ask for their permission to put on your friend's list. Most people will say yes, and most will come guest with you as well, because everybody loves PvP. Politeness, and humbleness all help as well. Asking questions has never hurt anybody, and it never will.

Mr Dbest
11-08-2006, 19:18
Ya, and in the same thread David Holtzman suggested that players should go to the Player Match-Up Forum to organize Groups for HA...So go there and set a time and date..=]

Parker Bsb
11-08-2006, 21:13
Sigh - merging with the EXISTING thread about rank. It's not like the question was not answered if you had looked.

Ashin
11-08-2006, 21:31
The truth is that the average player does not want to devote enough time to become good in high-ranked PvP. Until one commits to making more friends, one will have to resort to PuGs. Please, understand this.

I think it has more to do with social skills, and even your own posts kind of agree with that. Someone can spend a huge amount of time sitting in HA districts, but with no social skills they will probably not get far, unless they latch onto a so-called gimmick build.

Perhaps that is why so many of the "gimmick" pugs I have been invited to have no communication whatsoever, now that I think about it.

At the end of the day, a game needs to be fun in order for me to want to play it. Right now I just find arenas more fun for me because of what the average gimmick pug is like for me in HA. But when I decide to do HA, certainly it will be all about networking/friends/guild. For the record, I would much rather lose a few matches in HA with some cool people that know how to have a good time, than to win a fame point or two with some of these pugs I have been in. ><

ZiegDivine
11-08-2006, 21:52
I think it has more to do with social skills, and even your own posts kind of agree with that. Someone can spend a huge amount of time sitting in HA districts, but with no social skills they will probably not get far, unless they latch onto a so-called gimmick build.

Perhaps that is why so many of the "gimmick" pugs I have been invited to have no communication whatsoever, now that I think about it.

At the end of the day, a game needs to be fun in order for me to want to play it. Right now I just find arenas more fun for me because of what the average gimmick pug is like for me in HA. But when I decide to do HA, certainly it will be all about networking/friends/guild. For the record, I would much rather lose a few matches in HA with some cool people that know how to have a good time, than to win a fame point or two with some of these pugs I have been in. ><

Agreed with for the most part. When I said "devoting time" I included "making friends" in that (granted social skills aren't exactly equivalent to dedication, but that connection can swing).

I also agree with you that I would rather spend 2 hours in HA with friends losing, then wasting time in some PuG and winning a couple fame points.

Vela
14-08-2006, 18:02
Ok ok ok......path to rank 3 is difficult and covered with broken glasses and you are forced to take a walk on it barefeet most of the time.

I will not say anything new but, insist on all new PvP players having 3 things:

1. Attitude ( Pleasent one, of course. Cussing the enemy team who just beat you won't give you a darn thing).
2. Patience (Need to be very very patient).
3. Adaptability (This is the most important thing. How quickly you can adapt to a build or a situation will make a difference between being a good player and another rank emoter).

None of these can be attained unless you go out on your own and put your fingers and mind together. My suggestion will be to build a list of people's ids from this site and make an flist. Msg them "politely" to see if he/she can give you a spot in their runs. If he/she can, great; if not, msg another person from your list. In 25 tries, you will find at least 1 who will give you a spot.

Have a working headset w/ mic. And do NOT be shy about your accent. I was shy too and came out of it. Heck, if I have an accent that generally means I know more languages than the other person w/ no accent. Communication is the key in PvP arenas.

Lastly, spend time in RA and TA with an objective to try roles and not just wins. And check our website!

Goodluck!

- Vela

Mr Dbest
17-08-2006, 02:17
Hmm....

Mr Dbest, let's try something simple then.

If ANet can take action to fix grouping in HA, how can they do it? You seem to be fairly sure they can, so you must have some idea of how they'd go about it.

This is where i see the main problem~IWAY...No other build has the abillity to gain fame rapidly through a lack of coordination....Now, it has made an impact on the metagame in the form of driving players away from HA, making players think twice before joining HA, and creating a rank:skill imbalance....

Now, what I am suggesting is that Anet nerf IWAY to the point where it is more of a balanced build, as in nerfing I Will Avenge You in ways such as :
Changing~
For each dead ally to each dead Party Member
You gain 10 seconds of health regen to you gain 5 seconds, or some other lesser number
+3..6 Health Regen to a smaller form of regen
IAS to either Increased movement or getting rid of it altogether...

Now i feel that any of these changes, especially number 1, will have a great impact on the IWAY build, and will allow it to become more balanced....

And as i see it, cutting away the excess of IWAY will allow other PvP builds to bloom, for now an easy route to rank ascension, namely IWAY, has been closed, so many of the newer people in HA will have to find alternate means to gain rank...
Now, obviously rank discrimination will most likely always be around, but now, with IWAY gone, more builds such as balanced and spike will be used by newer HA members, them being forced to create their own groups of r0+ and such....
And, as i believe, that the HA scene will be rid of IWAY for the most part, this may encourage otehrs to join as well, either as returning players or new ones.....
That is what i believe will happen if IWAY is removed from its status as an uncoordinated fame farmer, and will truly make HA a greater and better experience... =]

thedrjay
17-08-2006, 03:05
As has been said before IWAY is a viable build. The problem is not the build as players will look towards other easy coordination fame farming builds.

Mr Dbest
17-08-2006, 05:23
As has been said before IWAY is a viable build. The problem is not the build as players will look towards other easy coordination fame farming builds.

There are none that have the success rate of IWAY, so easy coordination builds can and will be used, but will not have the ability to farm fame as easily or have the same measure of success as IWAY... =]

fang
17-08-2006, 06:15
Parkerbsb, I used to lie so i could get into groups. The only groups running what i was trying to play were r*+.

david what you have to ask yourslef is this, if the 'top gvg players' were unranked with no guild but you knew how you played with them would you still play with them? Example, you know hes good but hes r0 and un guilded. would you take him or some random r9 in HA

David Holtzman
17-08-2006, 06:23
Parkerbsb, I used to lie so i could get into groups. The only groups running what i was trying to play were r*+.

david what you have to ask yourslef is this, if the 'top gvg players' were unranked with no guild but you knew how you played with them would you still play with them? Example, you know hes good but hes r0 and un guilded. would you take him or some random r9 in HA


Sure I'd take 'em, but not if they had to lie to me. Which they wouldn't, of course. They know how good they are and I'd be a fool not to recognize it. I doubt the question of rank would even come up. Of course, if it did and I found it he'd lied to me, well, there's plenty of really good players who also have ethics, and I'll take them plzkthx.

ZiegDivine
17-08-2006, 16:32
fang, there is no way for you to argue that new people should lie to get into groups. There is no way to swing it that it's acceptable. You got lucky, and you need to face that.

Mr Dbest, IWAY is a balanced build already. It requires coordination. A couple days ago I went into a r3 IWAY pug ... we lost and disbanded. The only IWAY you see holding halls anymore is high ranked players who have played for a while now. Uncoordinated IWAY isn't a farming build, it loses in UW.

Mr Dbest
17-08-2006, 18:53
Mr Dbest, IWAY is a balanced build already. It requires coordination. A couple days ago I went into a r3 IWAY pug ... we lost and disbanded. The only IWAY you see holding halls anymore is high ranked players who have played for a while now. Uncoordinated IWAY isn't a farming build, it loses in UW.

Granted, IWAY is much more balanced than it used to be, but the nerfs have not diminshed the use of it compared to other builds....
Also, keyword is high ranked players...They have been playing IWAY and know their roles, and so no coordination is needed once again.... =]
And on the contrary, IWAY doesn't necessarily lose in UW...This comment must have come from your personal experience where you've rolled IWAY playing against it, or lost in UW while in an IWAY group.... =]

slakt
17-08-2006, 23:09
This is where i see the main problem~IWAY...No other build has the abillity to gain fame rapidly through a lack of coordination....Now, it has made an impact on the metagame in the form of driving players away from HA, making players think twice before joining HA, and creating a rank:skill imbalance....

Now, what I am suggesting is that Anet nerf IWAY to the point where it is more of a balanced build, as in nerfing I Will Avenge You in ways such as :
Changing~
For each dead ally to each dead Party Member
You gain 10 seconds of health regen to you gain 5 seconds, or some other lesser number
+3..6 Health Regen to a smaller form of regen
IAS to either Increased movement or getting rid of it altogether...

Now i feel that any of these changes, especially number 1, will have a great impact on the IWAY build, and will allow it to become more balanced....

And as i see it, cutting away the excess of IWAY will allow other PvP builds to bloom, for now an easy route to rank ascension, namely IWAY, has been closed, so many of the newer people in HA will have to find alternate means to gain rank...
Now, obviously rank discrimination will most likely always be around, but now, with IWAY gone, more builds such as balanced and spike will be used by newer HA members, them being forced to create their own groups of r0+ and such....
And, as i believe, that the HA scene will be rid of IWAY for the most part, this may encourage otehrs to join as well, either as returning players or new ones.....
That is what i believe will happen if IWAY is removed from its status as an uncoordinated fame farmer, and will truly make HA a greater and better experience... =]

There is no way to nerf the IWAY build, really. The Skill "I Will Avenge You!" is only a minor part of the build. If you want to nerf the build, you have to nerf warriors, because IWAY is nothing but a high offence warrior pressure build. And as we've seen, the build has changed a lot since it was born, but the goal is always the same: to maximize the effeciany of warriors. There's no way to kill such a build and still keep the warrior profession alive.

Mr Dbest
19-08-2006, 19:31
There is no way to nerf the IWAY build, really. The Skill "I Will Avenge You!" is only a minor part of the build. If you want to nerf the build, you have to nerf warriors, because IWAY is nothing but a high offence warrior pressure build. And as we've seen, the build has changed a lot since it was born, but the goal is always the same: to maximize the effeciany of warriors. There's no way to kill such a build and still keep the warrior profession alive.

Umm, not sure where you see I Will Avenge You as a "minor" part of the build, especially after the build is named after the skill...
Anyways, the only reason this build is successful is because of this skill...
It includes Regen and IAS in a non-elite skill, and it lasts for 10 sec x # of dead allies...Also, it's a shout so it can't be interrupted...
This allows the IWAY build to lessen on the healing (hence, no monk primaries), and also, it allows the warriors to provide constant pressure, which is the point of the build...
Their adrenaline charges faster (more DW), they do more DPS, and it gives them regen coupled with Warrior armor......Take the skill away, and just see how well IWAY will do......=]

Aiiane
19-08-2006, 19:56
Umm, not sure where you see I Will Avenge You as a "minor" part of the build, especially after the build is named after the skill...

It's evolved over time. I.W.A.Y. is truly a minor part of the build now.



Anyways, the only reason this build is successful is because of this skill...
It includes Regen and IAS in a non-elite skill, and it lasts for 10 sec x # of dead allies...Also, it's a shout so it can't be interrupted...

If it didn't exist, one could use Tiger's Fury for the IAS, and the regen really doesn't make as much of a difference as it sounds.



This allows the IWAY build to lessen on the healing (hence, no monk primaries), and also, it allows the warriors to provide constant pressure, which is the point of the build...

Actually, it's the constant pressure that allows IWAY to lessen the healing, and also the fact that they have very few soft targets, plus the fact that they don't care if they die nearly as much, because the generally have 8 res sigs to work with.



Their adrenaline charges faster (more DW), they do more DPS, and it gives them regen coupled with Warrior armor......Take the skill away, and just see how well IWAY will do......=]
It would do about as well as it currently does - it's a heavy warrior pressure build.

Mr Dbest
23-08-2006, 21:55
It's evolved over time. I.W.A.Y. is truly a minor part of the build now.

Sure it's evolved, but the basic premise, your pets and others dying so they can be fueled by I Will Avenge You!., is the same...



If it didn't exist, one could use Tiger's Fury for the IAS, and the regen really doesn't make as much of a difference as it sounds.


Sure, if a lot of things didn't exist then HA would be different. But that's not the case...It does exist and it works, which is why it is used......If something works it will keep being used until something happens to make it useless or another skill is more effective...And btw, the regen does work....Obviously not against spikes, but other IWAY and pressure builds...



Actually, it's the constant pressure that allows IWAY to lessen the healing, and also the fact that they have very few soft targets, plus the fact that they don't care if they die nearly as much, because the generally have 8 res sigs to work with.


Sure pressure is great and all, but having 2 non-monk primaries heal a team of 8 is stupid...They can't heal everyone, and so having a regen lessens pressure on the necros and allows the warriors to survive longer, hence more pressure.....

melandrus elite
25-08-2006, 05:33
Rank is a terrible thing for new players to deal with. IWAY and new builds (such as pet spike) are the only r0 takers nowadays. I wonder if people will ever realize that you can be great at bspike and get r9 then suck at choking gas and be r9 anyway.