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Quintus Antonius
16-08-2006, 18:32
This is not meant to be a serious lecture, but a plausible connection between several events that span chapters.

We know that Vizier Kilborn, in an attempt to save Orr from the Charr, descended into the depths of the Catacombs of Arah and opened a forbidden scroll, which then caused the Cataclysm, destroying Orr, and creating the Undead Army, as well as corrupting the Vizier and creating the Lich.

For years now, it has been speculated what that scroll contained. Did the Vizier simply speak the incantation wrong? Was it a Titan spirit inside? Did Glint or Gwen somehow corrupt his mind? Was it the T-Virus? Did he get assimiliated by the Borg?!

200 years earlier, during a holy ceremony at the Harvest Temple, Shiro, the Emperor's body guard, struck him down, temporarily gaining massive power and unleashing the Jade Wind when he was defeated by the champions of the Kurzicks and Luxons with the help of Visu.

What exactly happened there? Did Shiro act on his own? Was he manipulated by the Am Fah and fortune teller? Was it a self-fulfilling prophecy? Was he possessed? Did he simply go postal?

Now, with the appearance of the Chaos Army, in both Tyria and Cantha, as well as the Underworld and possibly even Elona, as well as the revelation that the forces behind the events coming in Nightfall also corrupted Shiro, things begin to fall into place.

Eons ago, Dhuum ruled over the Underworld until Grenth "destroyed" him and took over as the God of Death we know now. Yet, the nature of the destruction is largely speculation. Some believe that Dhuum was killed, and is no more. Others believe his position was destroyed or that he was imprisioned somewhere. Those who follow my theory that the Old Gods are like daedra believe that he was greatly reduced in power and imprisioned.

This is an extention on that theory. When Grenth cast out Dhuum, destroying him as the God of Death and reducing his tower to the Chaos Planes, I believe that Dhuum was bodily destroyed, killed persay. Yet, due to Dhuum's nature as a daedraic Old God, like the rest, he was only able to be destroyed so far. His essence was trapped within the scroll of Arah that the Vizier read. When released, the force of Dhuum's chaotic return exploded outward, destroying Orr and posessing the Vizier in the form of a Titan spirit, leading him to fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies in an effort to release the Titans. 200 years prior, Dhuum possessed Shiro with similar results. The Harvest Temple explodes and Shiro death wail, filled with all the Chaos of Dhuum, shoots outwards in a radial expansion, turning the Echovald Forest to Amber and the Jade Sea to....well....jade. The result is Shiro's soul is driven mad.

The connection between all these events, both Prophecies and Factions is that they were Dhuum's attempts to regain control. The difference is that at first, he could only silently influence people's minds. He needed the Emperor's conduit with the gods to influence Shiro. However, once the Vizier opened that scroll and read the words or perhaps the name of Dhuum (similar to the dwarven Tome of the Rubicon) and unleashed Dhuum into the realm again. Once Dhuum bodily returned, he was able to regain control of his Chaos Army and corrupt the Underworld once again, pouring out of the Tomb of Primeval Kings and eventually overrunning the Dragon Festival in Cantha.

Now Dhuum is influencing events in Elona in a final effort to finalize his grip.

While Shiro and the Lich both operated with some manner of purpose, they were being driven by forces, perhaps beyond their comprehension.

This theory is not meant to be taken as fact. There is still much we don't know. I have simply presented a plausible way that the events of the three campaigns may be tied together.

teh Monkeys
16-08-2006, 19:05
His essence was trapped within the scroll of Arah that the Vizier read. When released, the force of Dhuum's chaotic return exploded outward, destroying Orr and posessing the Vizier in the form of a Titan spirit, leading him to fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies in an effort to release the Titans.
Unrolling one of the Lost Scrolls, kept inside a warded vault deep within the catacombs below Arrah, he spoke the words of a littanly that spelled the end of Orr forever.

One of the lost scrolls. One of multiple lost scrolls, hidden below Arrah. Are you implying that all of these scrolls contain evil gods or somesuch?
These scrolls contained dark magic. Dark is hardly an accurate way of describing the Titans. And why the hell would a titan soul enable one to control the dead anyhow? And why the hell would Dhuum of all people, use titans, the embodiment of destruction, to do his bidding? Dhuum wants to conquer, control, slave, torture, etc. Not simply destroy.

Now, you yourself stated that Grenth never lived in Arrah. Why would a scroll, containing the power of a god Grenth destroyed, be hidden in a vault under a city where he never even lived? The battle between Grenth and Dhuum seems very personal to me, as in, the other gods didn't have anything to do with it, and didn't interfere. Why would they do so later on?


The connection between all these events, both Prophecies and Factions is that they were Dhuum's attempts to regain control.

The connection is that Anet's writers are very bad at writing an original story.

Quintus Antonius
16-08-2006, 19:22
Yes, it was one of many, but why did he choose this one of all of the possible scrolls he could've grabbed? It was probably set aside, maybe even locked up.

ShadowSword
16-08-2006, 19:43
Oddly enough, if anyone has read the PCFormat preview of GW (it's rubbish btw) it states that Nightfall will bring an end to the 'Titans/Shiro' story. Considering the preview was littered with mistakes (including the wrong date for the beta and I'm suspicious about the henchmen orders and plot choices as well) then it's not conclusive evidence of a link but it could be hinting thaT something was involved in both.

The Stiehl
16-08-2006, 20:40
Omg, I've seen this somewhere before...
That's right, in my favorite book series.

Old God (Read: God of Evil), gets cast out, then *eons* later, things start going wrong in the planet the series is set in. Now, about 5 books in, it starts getting really weird. Then at 10 books in, you learn just what the *heck* is going on, and why here of all places, and how every event is all connected. And why? So the Evil God can return!
And, in those books, even the Emperor gets possessed!

Seeing as that was the latest book so far, I have no idea what's coming next. :tongue:

NeoSaber
16-08-2006, 21:11
Now, you yourself stated that Grenth never lived in Arrah. Why would a scroll, containing the power of a god Grenth destroyed, be hidden in a vault under a city where he never even lived?

Here's a thought: What if the scrolls were primarily a record of the events in Cantha that caused the Jade Wind. When the jade wind was unleashed, there was probably a lot of confusion about what just happened. No one who had been there survived. Others investigated and eventually pieced together what had happened. That knowledge gets written down, and eventually finds its way to Orr where it gets locked away.

When the Vizier used one of the scrolls as part of an incantation, it re-triggered Dhuum's attempt to possess Shiro, only this time using the Vizier. Orr gets obliterated, but unlike last time, the Vizier survives to carry out Dhuum's plan. Shiro's soul, which was driven mad already by his encounter with Dhuum, senses the completion of Dhuum's plan. Desperate to avoid falling into Dhuum's control again, he attempts to become mortal hoping this will keep him out of Dhuum's reach. Having been driven mad though, he doesn't care how many people have to die to accomplish this, and doesn't really think through what might happen to him if his plan succeeds.

Just a bit of rampant speculation. :grin:

lavenbb
17-08-2006, 02:01
I don't think Anet has ever said those scrolls contained dark magic. More like, destructive magic. And if the titans are indeed the "embodiment of destruction", then isn't it clear that they can all be attributed to Menzies?

Shiro's death wail can also be seen as a manifestation of destruction. The afflicted and chaos army, on the other hand, seemed to be chaotic.

I stand by my point that Menzies and Dhumm is allied and working together.

Quintus Antonius
17-08-2006, 02:19
If Dhuum is indeed destroyed, as in, gone forever, then I'd say Menzies is the next best guess. Still, we might all be wrong and it's a god we haven't seen yet. I'm open to that as well.

Art
17-08-2006, 02:45
I'm all for the gods need believers to be powerful track-of-mind, or at least large groups of people in a an emotional state.

The Charr invasion may have provided this and the Harvest ceremony certainly did. Perhaps whoever this god is channels large quantities of emotion to gain more hold over their domain.

Perhaps Dhuum is merely a turtle at the moment wondering purposefully through a desert waiting to be picked up by an eagle and dropped on a big shindig.

-Art

AshG
17-08-2006, 03:13
Well, both situations we've seen so far - Lich and Shiro - have been cases were extreme circumstances have pushed these people to willingly commit atrocious acts. Despite the fact that there were mitigating circumstances pushing both men toward the brink, both Shiro and the Vizier made the decision of their own accord.

There's another link to this, and this might be shot to heck based on how nightfall goes... In the cases of both Orr and southern Cantha, there was a massive amount of damage/destruction done to the land to the point that it became either uninhabitable or extremely inhospitable.

Durza the Shadeking
17-08-2006, 11:56
I have my own theory about Shiro's "today problems."

We all know how Shiro killed the emperor, might have been controlled, and unleashed Chaos and Desrtuction onto Cantha.
What I think is that the gods are controling Shiro when we battle him. I know, that this a first may seem unlikely, yet think about it. Instead of Shiro becomeing all powerful, you see a chain of event in process.
1.Canthan student is at Monstary.
2.Canthan Student gets more powerful, frees Island and leaves to help on the mainland.
3.They come to city filled with corruption and help find peace.
4.Become Weh No Su, and can see spirits.
5.Unite the Kurzicks and Luxons so that they work together.
6.Destroy Shiro, and embolden the empire to cast off corruption and chaos.

Now doesn't that seem like it would work to the gods advantage. What makes me think this is that how STUPID Shiro acts. His whole pan has no meaning unless you view it from another perspective.

Same sorta thing happens with Lich causing a better and healthier Tyria.

Back on the Discussion on-hand.
I believe that in Chapter 1 and 2 that the Gods and the Dark Forces are quietly pushing things around, pulling the strings for control. This might be because The Gods vowed that they would not return to Tyria (planet) or some other reason.

Just my 2c.

Santax
17-08-2006, 12:24
That's plausible theory. Shiro never got to finish the ritual of sucking the life from the Emperor, because of Vizu, Saint Viktor and Archemorus. It's possible that he was in the process of creating a physical form for Dhuum who possessed him (I'm speaking hypothetically for now), and then when he died, the power that was going to create Dhuum was instead released in an area-of-effect, causing the Jade Wind.

Quintus Antonius
17-08-2006, 16:28
That's plausible theory. Shiro never got to finish the ritual of sucking the life from the Emperor, because of Vizu, Saint Viktor and Archemorus. It's possible that he was in the process of creating a physical form for Dhuum who possessed him (I'm speaking hypothetically for now), and then when he died, the power that was going to create Dhuum was instead released in an area-of-effect, causing the Jade Wind.

If that's the case, a similar event may have occured with the Vizier. Once again, I must go back to referencing Evil Dead. Think of when Ash reads the Necronomicon wrong. When he pronunces just one or two words incorrectly, radically different things happen. The Vizier probably didn't know what he was getting into, and may have simply mispronunced something in that scroll. Even a long vowel where a short one should be may be enough. So let's just use the word "man" for instance (this obviously isn't the word, but I'm just picking a simple word with a short "a" sound). If instead of pronuncing "mah-an" like it is suppose to be, he says "main", with a long "a" sound, that may have been enough. So, instead of summoning Dhuum, all he ends up doing is blowing Orr up and corrupting himself and the life around him.

teh Monkeys
17-08-2006, 16:41
I don't think Anet has ever said those scrolls contained dark magic. More like, destructive magic. And if the titans are indeed the "embodiment of destruction", then isn't it clear that they can all be attributed to Menzies?

To stop the invading army, the King of Orr's advisor and sage turned to the powers of dark magic.


Here's a thought: What if the scrolls were primarily a record of the events in Cantha that caused the Jade Wind. When the jade wind was unleashed, there was probably a lot of confusion about what just happened. No one who had been there survived. Others investigated and eventually pieced together what had happened. That knowledge gets written down, and eventually finds its way to Orr where it gets locked away.

Only problem is that everything indicates that the scrolls contained dark magic/littanies. And why the hell would knowledge of events in Cantha be taken to a warded vault below Arrah?

Quintus Antonius
17-08-2006, 16:47
Only problem is that everything indicates that the scrolls contained dark magic/littanies. And why the hell would knowledge of events in Cantha be taken to a warded vault below Arrah?

Or cause massive explosions?

"So hey, did you here about the events in Cantha, Bob...." *boom*

On another note:


lit·a·ny ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ltn-)
n. pl. lit·a·nies
A liturgical prayer consisting of a series of petitions recited by a leader alternating with fixed responses by the congregation.
A repetitive or incantatory recital: “the litany of layoffs in recent months by corporate giants” (Sylvia Nasar).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English letanie, from Old French, from Medieval Latin letana, from Late Latin litana, from Late Greek litaneia, from Greek, entreaty, from litaneuein, to entreat, from litanos, entreating, from lit, supplication.]

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


I rather wonder what kind of litany the Vizier read.

Santax
17-08-2006, 17:21
If that's the case, a similar event may have occured with the Vizier. Once again, I must go back to referencing Evil Dead. Think of when Ash reads the Necronomicon wrong. When he pronunces just one or two words incorrectly, radically different things happen. The Vizier probably didn't know what he was getting into, and may have simply mispronunced something in that scroll. Even a long vowel where a short one should be may be enough. So let's just use the word "man" for instance (this obviously isn't the word, but I'm just picking a simple word with a short "a" sound). If instead of pronuncing "mah-an" like it is suppose to be, he says "main", with a long "a" sound, that may have been enough. So, instead of summoning Dhuum, all he ends up doing is blowing Orr up and corrupting himself and the life around him.
I'd have thought the Vizier was definitely possessed. He did what he did for the good of Orr, or so he thought. However, after the Cataclysm, something had changed about him, hence the desire to release the titans and fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies, two desires that, as far as I know, he never had prior to reading that scroll.

Quintus Antonius
17-08-2006, 17:37
I'd have thought the Vizier was definitely possessed. He did what he did for the good of Orr, or so he thought. However, after the Cataclysm, something had changed about him, hence the desire to release the titans and fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies, two desires that, as far as I know, he never had prior to reading that scroll.

Odds are he never even heard of the Titans or the Flameseeker Prophecies prior to opening that scroll. There was either something in the scroll, or something that came as a result of the scroll, that corrupted the Vizier.

teh Monkeys
17-08-2006, 18:13
Well, everyone and their brother seems to know about the prophecies, so we can rule that out.

Laibeus Lord
19-08-2006, 07:22
I agree, everything started because of the forbidden spell that was read that caused the cataclysm.

In C1, Dhuum could be only trying to get more time as he regains his energy and power - simply, a diversion. In C2, he started experimenting with resurrecting people and tricking the guardians of the dead and the mist, I'll say C2 is part diversion, part a real-plan. But we foiled it. Atleast we foiled Shiro, but the experiment was a success.

In C3, maybe, it could be where we will see the real-deal. What really is happening, what happened in the past, how these three continents are inter-related - and why these three continents.

Just a theory.

Zion Farbow
19-08-2006, 07:29
lol i know this isnt a part of the topic but since u mention daedra do u play Oblivion or Morrowind!? :D

Quintus Antonius
19-08-2006, 16:07
Yes, the model of worship used by the daedra-worshippers and also the nature of the daedra is what I believe inspired the pantheon of the Old Gods (as well as other things, like Greek, Roman, Norse, and Asianic worship-styles).

Taryn Har Lea Quin
21-08-2006, 13:08
Ok I haven't as yet completed factions and im not sure on who the chaos army are, searching on here and guild wiki didn't turn up much in the way of clues.
If someone could point me in the direction of some infomation I would be gratefull.
This is mostly guess work so forgive me if im wrong.

How ever going from the comments in this thread it might seam as if the chaos army are similar in some respects to the shadow army which by concenus is controled by Menzies and the mursaat/mantle are afiliated with.

If Dhum was behind the Lich and the release of the Titans, is it possible he was trying to emulate Menzies with the heirarchy of Chaos army, Titans and Charr vs Shadow army, Mursaat, Mantle?

The release of the titans does much to hurt the mursaat which have been trying to keep the door of komalie closed for centuries. so there appears to be some bad blood between them.

It seems possible that these armies belonged to Dhum while he was god of death, and when he was defeated his armies were banished or sealed, or he could just be raising an army so that he can get revenge on the other gods.

It probably would have taken him a while to regain some strength to affect the mortal realm again. He then engineered the events behind shiro killing the emperor to create his own envoy. As it seems the other gods are represented there in. The destrution of the harvest temple (I think it belonged to Dwayna) may have been his opening shot at the gods.
With Shiro as a controled envoy he could then work on bringing back his chaos army.

Another thought is that when Dhum was defeated by Grenth his spirit was shattered and imprisoned within various objects. We know from the factions campaign that the emperors blood line has very powerfull qualities, could the emperor have been a seal on one such object, the release of which summoned the jade wind?.

A piece could also have been kept in a scroll, a warning of " a dark power kept with in" could easily be mis-interpreted as holding a very distructive spell. With this section released, causing the destruction of Orr, he found the vizier in a usefull position to realease the other half of his army. The timing of this caused shiro to return to complete that half of the plan.
It is possible that the whole char invasion was devised by Dhum to find the objects that imprissoned him.

Sorry for meandering a little off topic, if ive got anything wrong feel free to inform, im curious and wish to learn more.

Shokk Mjollnir
28-08-2006, 02:33
On the theory about that the Old Gods AND Dhuum/Menzies are pulling some strings in the world makes alot of sense,i think maybe the old gods intervened in the nick of time to keep dhuum from being fully released, maybe (pure speculation) the vizier was never manipulated by dhuum, maybe menzies (also assuming menzies is in league with dhuum) began the charr invasion, assuming since dhuum was "locked away" in the scroll and had no power? but say, lyssa, made the vizier have a slip of the tongue, causing the cataclysm, but possibly hindering the full release-ey ness of dhuum however dhuum's energy/spirit corrupted the vizier in the cataclysm making him want to release the titans etc. then in Cantha at the Harvest Temple, maybe...Balthazar gave visu the strength to disarm shiro, and the same to archemorus and Saint viktor to kill shiro, still causing widespread destruction but maybe not allowing dhuum to fully manifest (as said earlier) yet it seems shiro got closer to fulfilling dhuums plan than the lich, but as said earlier, the lich could have been a diversion. maybe in C3 the gods simply cant intervene in time, or maybe everything is already in place for dhuum's arrival and theres nothing they can do. and thus Dhuum comes into being and its like all out warness between the gods and dhuum +(maybe)Menzies this might also explain how the dervish can change into embodiments of the gods, maybe its a newfound power of the dervish and the gods are granting them the power to maybe defeat dhuum/ reseal him....maybe the old gods are making a return to tyria, who knows. On Taryn Har Lea Quins thing about the different armies opposing each other i think it goes something like
Chaos Army+Shadowarmy+titans+charr V.S. Mursaat+Mantle V.S. Humans and Old Gods.

Quintus Antonius
28-08-2006, 03:14
I truly believe the Searing was inevitable, and it was fully a Charr action. However, I still believe that the Charr were pushed by something or someone. Still, their invasion and aggression was in the works for centuries. Probably since the founding of Ascalon.

Quintus Antonius
30-08-2006, 23:38
I have found something in the FoW that suggests whoever is controlling the Chaos Army, maybe influencing Menzies as well.

This is from the Army of Darkness FoW quest:



"The army of Menzies will soon be upon the battle plain, and it shall be my duty to lead the Eternals against them. The enemy cannot overcome the power of Balthazar, but I have sensed some dark sorcery upon the battlefield, some new trick of the deceiver Menzies.
Quickly, before the Shadow Army has mustered, go into the camp across the battlefield and strike down the Priest of Menzies. Then bring to me any unholy texts you find. That is how we shall discover the nature of this dark sorcery.

As you can see, it appears Menzies is in league with the Outcast God, who appears to have buffed Menzies' Shadow Army.

Tuor Son Of Huor
30-08-2006, 23:48
I have 2 words for the this entire conjecture:

Phantom Menace.

teh Monkeys
31-08-2006, 09:47
As you can see, it appears Menzies is in league with the Outcast God, who appears to have buffed Menzies' Shadow Army.

...or Menzies just decided to try something different for a change. Doesn't suggest much, really.

Ranger Nietzsche
31-08-2006, 15:40
yeah, there is little in that passage to Suggest outside influences, after all an evil God of Deception probably has a few unholy texts lying around

Quintus Antonius
31-08-2006, 15:58
God of Destruction, not deception.

What I wanted to draw everyone's attention to is the fact that this battle has been going on for etenity (according to FoW sources) and suddenly Menzies has a strange new power that no one knows where it is coming from. He didn't just say "Hey, I'm going to use my shadow powers that I haven't used for all eternity until this exact point for no real reason". He either discovered something new, or was pursuaed by some unknown force to using said scrolls or powers at this exact time.

mrmango
04-09-2006, 03:16
Um, for Factions, are you trying to say that Dhuum's name or something like that, was read by the fortune teller, and it made her possesed and that lead to Shiro =ing a big bad boy?

Zesr Swiftblade
06-10-2006, 05:38
by Laibeus Lord In C1, Dhuum could be only trying to get more time as he regains his energy and power - simply, a diversion.

^ i was thinking more of prophecies was to get his spirit out of the door of komalie - i just simply don't see why prophecies would be just a "diversion"...


by Laibeus Lord In C2, he started experimenting with resurrecting people and tricking the guardians of the dead and the mist, I'll say C2 is part diversion, part a real-plan. But we foiled it. Atleast we foiled Shiro, but the experiment was a success.

^ This sounds very interesting - Shiro, the puppet, is controlled by Abbadon and forced to attempt to determine a way to make himself in flesh and blood again.

Or, in other words, leave the spirit realm and join the physical realm.
Since has been stated in other threads (see link (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=408224&page=8&highlight=gods+mursaat)) that the gods may not be actual "gods" in the sense that they always were and always are and --- are not and were not flesh and blood...

Then perhaps Abaddon must find a way to return to the realm of flesh and blood where his ready worshippers will give him a surge of power when he returns from their continued worship in his absence.

And perhaps even the only way he (Abbadon) could be sure that the conversion would not fail is to perform experiments on human souls (which he could possibly be?..)

Abaddon controls Shiro who then creates Afflicted using his envoy(?) powers. Afflicted are failed experiments with human souls, but are continually refined until they become Shiro'ken ( i don't know the lore on these guys. [though as an afterthought shiro'ken look like enemies and are not necessarily human anywho.])

But since the Shiro'ken use the bodies of enemies (kirin, kuunavang, bird people [XD their actual name eludes me] etc.) perhaps Abbadon's body was destroyed and therefore he must find a body capable of sustaining his spirit and/or is prepared magically to receive his spirit.

For this purpose the Warmarshal Varesh would be the perfect candidate to sacrifice her body for her outcast god using forbidden magics in return for a new body(?) eternal life(?)... dunno?

well just some brainstorming have fun with it

Shorefire
07-10-2006, 04:24
I was doing a few quests in Sorrow's Furnace when I came across the Unspeakable, Unknowable quest. I found it quite interesting with the Scroll of Dhuum/Abbadon (I know they may not be the same, but for our purposes it will go with the speculation).

Check out these links

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Unspeakable%2C_Unknowable

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Tome_of_Rubicon

Ivan Drago
07-10-2006, 12:00
Just to add something to Dhuum-Abaddon and the many suspected connections between them.


IMO: Abaddon = the remaining essence/splinters of what remains of the destroyed Dhuum.

Reference in literature to Raymond E. Feist: In his books the "god of good" got killed in a war between the gods, while the "nameless one", the god of evil, got banished and destroyed.

Yet both are not totally gone - they are just too powerful to be totally destroyed. Some mortals and demigods contain "splinters" of the essence of the god in question.

The theory in Feists universe is, if you can get enough of these splinters together, one day the god might return from death and really live again with all its powers.

Now think about Dhuum as follows:

He already influenced a strong following, and ABADDON is his reincarnation, a weak, young god, made off his essence. Fully or almost fully aware of his past, struggling to become whole and powerful again, and to take bloody revenge.

vivalabail
07-10-2006, 12:49
but, how can Abbadon be dhuum's reincarnate, if Abbadon was a 6th god? Wouldn't that make dhuum the 6th god aswell? but that isnt possible because Grenth took over dhumm's place as a god. or could it?

Ivan Drago
07-10-2006, 13:09
This theory was my idea to connect Abaddon and Dhuum.

There are many hints going in the direction of Abaddon, and many also think of possible connections between the two. That Dhuum = Abaddon or even = Menzies is one of the more common ones.

vivalabail
07-10-2006, 13:17
I do agree, there could be a connection, but for some reason i don't want to believe it, because that could mess with some FoW/UW story. For example, if Abbadon WAS Dhuum, then if you destroy him it might screw up his connection in the UW. If he is menzies, and you defeate him, than what is the point of the war in FoW

Skyy High
18-10-2006, 23:10
The "Great Destroyer" from the Unspeakable quest is, in my opinion, Abaddon. Dhuum's name was not, as far as we know, covered up like Abaddon's was after his banishment. Furthermore, Dhuum is Grenth's enemy, while The Great Destroyer is the enemy of the Great Dwarf. Balthazar happens to look exactly like a large dwarf, so I think it's entirely plausible that the dwarves think of him as the Great Dwarf. This would make Abaddon's banishment the work of Balthazar.

Quintus Antonius
18-10-2006, 23:40
Seems to me that you posted in the wrong thread. There is a thread discussing exactly what you just mentioned, and I'm not entirely sure what you are refering to from this thread.