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View Full Version : So why isn't Sympathetic/Ancestral Visage more popular in GvG?



VILenin
21-08-2006, 23:39
As most people probably know, except for your gimmick builds (Air smiters, etc.) most balanced GvG teams use a pair of adrenaline spikers as their primary damage dealers. It's the classic charge-and-spike combo for warriors... so why isn't Sympathetic Visage more popular?

With both Sympathetic Visage and Ancestral Visage, a mesmer (or even a non-mesmer) can keep up the defenses on multiple targets at once. All he has to do is watch the warriors, and when they start charging on a target, just put Visage on the target and watch as the entire spike gets shot to hell. Axe spikers are back to square one (or square zero, now they have no energy for Shock either), thumpers can't charge for their KD, and assassins (though I see very few assassin spikes in GvG) will lose the majority of their energy in seconds (less if there are multiple assassins).

In the event that Visage gets stripped or shattered, you have another as backup. Besides, it would difficult to strip Visage before an auto-attacking warrior makes a hit.

I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason for my rarely seeing Visage, as it just seems way too obvious a counter. Any takers?

Ace Bear
21-08-2006, 23:57
Maybe its because even though you can apply then quickly, reapplying them is a biotch? If you remove them both(which is easily done, 2 hex removals aren't hard) then 20 seconds or more of down time till the next time you can cast it. That and it doesn't stop swinging weapons it just stops adenaline when other skills have less recharge, less cost, and make the weapons' swing less likely to hit(or slower) which is better in the long run in my opinion. Can't spike if you are swinging at half speed right?

sahlakh
22-08-2006, 00:33
The reasons are simple. Illusion mesmers are not very popular, and although both the skills are not bad, there are several better and more versatile skills people would rather take.

Sci
22-08-2006, 01:15
I think people want to bring versatile counters for rangers/warriors/assassins, while those two mesmer skills are more specified for only warriors.

Jummeh
22-08-2006, 01:27
Its not that you have to spec much illusion points onto it. Its the fact that it takes up a skill slot on a already congested mesmer or defensive players skill bar.

Just think about it, where would it go? First consider the secondary mesmer classes:

R/Me: 10en spell is equivalent to a 22en skill... something you do not want to be using that often.
W/Me: 10en!! Really no space for it.
Mo/Me: Monks sacrifice Res Sigs because their bars are so congested!
E/Me?: There is better utility as a E/Mo to control conditions/hexes and HP
N/Me?: Again you will get better utility from say a taint warder or taint draw etc so you wouldn't really want to give up those skills just for one skill like that.
A/Me?:Energy intensive already without having to stop and cast SV around. Also with long combos, sin bars are pretty congested, most of them require 4-5 attack skills leaving only 2 (res sig takes 1) skills which are normally used for escape and speed buffs.

Mesmer primary?
With mesmer primaries, they have many other skills that they use to *actively* shutdown other players, remember SV/AV is a passive skill, you need to be hitting the person enchanted for it to take effect.


You will be hard pressed to drop an active skill for SV/AV or drop a energy control skill. I think that is the most difficult aspect.


The only prof I can see SV working is the Rit, I have tried to put it on, however, without dropping resolve, you lose out on a spirit. etc.

Aiiane
22-08-2006, 03:30
On a side note... SV/AV are enchantments, not hexes.

Wuzzman
22-08-2006, 04:07
hmmm listen to the multitasking wait! that mesmer can actually run a effective build that counters the offense of most balance build that the top guilds run AND use those skills at the same time by the gods. And rangers aren't countered in gvg...just looked at funny.:grin:

Zui
22-08-2006, 05:30
Mo/Me: Monks sacrifice Res Sigs because their bars are so congested!

Since when do Monks bring Res Sigs, or any kind of Ressurect at all in PvP?

VILenin
22-08-2006, 05:34
hmmm listen to the multitasking wait! that mesmer can actually run a effective build that counters the offense of most balance build that the top guilds run AND use those skills at the same time by the gods. And rangers aren't countered in gvg...just looked at funny.:grin:
Well, there are thumpers and Cripshots.

One thing I'd say that is useful about SV is that it's basically an instant shutdown of melee spikes. You put Faintheartedness or Blind or something on a warrior, all he has to do is call it and wait for someone to remove it (don't forget that you also have to do it separately for each attacker). Similarly, there are ways around block and evade. However, I have a hard time imagining anyone moving fast enough to remove two enchantments (or even one) in between melee hits. All it takes is one to shut down a warrior adrenal spike, and of course you've got two.


I think people want to bring versatile counters for rangers/warriors/assassins, while those two mesmer skills are more specified for only warriors.
I'd say SV works pretty well on assassins as well. Anyone who takes their assassin seriously knows that most assassin spike builds already pretty stressed for energy. Most use offhand > dual > offhand > dual. Some use different chains, but at the moment, the cookie cutter sin spiker seems to be AoD > GPS > Horns > Falling > TF. Sins can get around 30 energy with Shrouded Armor (and possibly a +5e dagger), and AoD already costs 10 energy. That's 20 left. GPS costs 10, and if SV triggers, that's 3 more. You have 7 energy left. If you use Horns of the Ox, you'll end up with zero. Hardly a spike, and if it's a dual assassin spike (I've never seen this, personally) they'll both be empty by the time both unleash their GPS.

Skillbar congestion seems like a likely explanation, but if SV is used as a reaction (and not a constant defense), you don't really need to spec too many points in Illusion, and I know I'd be able to make room for at least one skill on a shutdown mesmer.

neoflame
22-08-2006, 06:21
Since when do Monks bring Res Sigs, or any kind of Ressurect at all in PvP?
That's his point - if monks don't have the slot to bring Rez Sig, how the hell are they going to bring SV/AV?

David Holtzman
22-08-2006, 07:10
That's his point - if monks don't have the slot to bring Rez Sig, how the hell are they going to bring SV/AV?

He missed the point. The reason Monks don't bring rez is because in the time it takes them to rez, if they do not heal then other people die.

Patccmoi
22-08-2006, 08:07
I always thought that these would actually be great utility on a Mesmer.

Honestly, AV/SV require 0 illusion to work. Because NO MELEE wants to hit on someone with that on them, and 8 sec is more than enough. It's just too devastating. A thumper is out of energy in a second (remember the pet drains them too), a warrior can't build adrenaline and has 0 energy to use frenzy, rush, etc. A Frenzy/Rush warrior hitting someone in SV is actually stuck in Frenzy for the rest of the duration because Rush empties itself on hit, which can prove very deadly.

It's imo a very great utility that could see some more presence in the current metagame. I can see a few builds using it that wouldn't be confined to using this skill. For example:

14 Fast Cast
13 Domination
9 Inspiration
3-4 Illusion

Mantra of Recovery
Diversion
Shatter Enchantment
Drain Enchantment
Power Drain
Sympathetic Visage
Ancestor's Visage
Resurrection Chant

You can Diversion monks during pressure and assist spikes with Shatter Enchant. You can do some enchant control and interrupt. And whenever someone on your team has a warrior/thumper on his back, throw SV/AV. To be honest, one is possibly enough and 2 is likely sacrificing too much versatility, but it's just an example really. A build like this could keep warriors and thumpers switching target all the time because whatever they hit would be protected with it (it's like having 8 sec recharge on it). Warriors can't ever build adrenaline and Thumpers are out of energy if they keep hitting a target. If you drop one of the 2 and say Shatter Enchantment, you could easily fit a nice spike on this guy doing something like PP-SD every 8 sec (MoR for fast recharge). You just decide what utility/offense assist your team requires.

You could also go for an illusion build, for example:

15 Illusion
14 Fast Cast

Mantra of Recovery
Clumsiness
Images of Remorse
Ethereal Burden
Kitah's Burden
Sympathetic Visage
Accumulated Pain
Resurrection Chant

You can pressure attackers by spamming Clumsiness-IoR on them and using Ethereal/Kitah's as snare (at 14 FC the cast time is very manageable). Then SV their targets. You can also help on a spike with IoR-Accumulated Pain (if your team has other hexes this can be enough, otherwise you can use Ethereal-IoR-Accumulated).


If you could manage a build including a high level Famine (with the new 45 sec recharge and SQ, it's quite possible), having both AV/SV might actually be good to control melee attackers. Either they stay there and get hurt as much as they hurt you (since with no E or adrenal, they're only auto-attacking and not for much more than 30 damage a hit usually) or just have to keep switching target that you can AV/SV too and run around in circle not pressuring you. Combined with some Fear Me! warriors and Mind Wrack Mesmers it could be quite funny to see.

Hendrixbrother
22-08-2006, 09:33
1) Recharge. There are a lot of great skills in this game that just don't see use because they can't be up on demand. If I'm going to have a skill that's going to be down for 30 seconds, it had better be a pretty damn good skill aka Aegis.

2) It's a mesmer enchantment. It's readily identifiable. It probably takes about 5 seconds to figure out that it's being used, and then the rest of the game the warriors stop attacking someone when they see a big purple cloud go on their body.

Jummeh
22-08-2006, 11:03
As a reaction skill, with the 1 second casting and target selection, the majority of the said adreno spike is already offloaded. Evis+Exe lasts for just under 1 second.

It will take a lot of pre-casting but then they can just change targets or hold off their drain+shatter (which you should be doing anyway) a little bit later.

@Holtzman: Time is certainly the biggest factor, but skillbar space is another compeling reason not to bring res.

essjizzle
22-08-2006, 11:08
blackout is better for adren denial and has more utility than SV. a good ele with blinding flash is also much better for stopping adren spikes cold than SV, as well.

sahlakh
22-08-2006, 12:19
It's imo a very great utility that could see some more presence in the current metagame. I can see a few builds using it that wouldn't be confined to using this skill

That's a pretty good build to utilize SV and AV. The problem is that your mesmer spams diversion, removes enchantments and interrupts once in a while, but he could do much more in addition. In my opinion, mesmers excel at offensive style of play and they're not so great to be played as support apart from expel hexes and draw conditions (which both help offense and defense).