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Djinn Effer
23-08-2006, 14:20
This is generally addressed to IWAYers that can only run IWAY, but I suppose it can be to anyone. Though, I suspect it'd be most valuable to them.

But basicly this is what it boils down to:

Do you want a build so you can move away from IWAY easily, but still have the simplicity and power of it? Or do you just want a build to destroy teams that arn't completly prepared for it?

Here you go:

"Fear Me!"

4 W/E 6+1 str, 11+3+1 axe, 12+1 tactics
Frenzy, Eviscerate, Executioners, Cyclone Axe, Fear Me!, Sprint, Shock, Resurrection Signet

1 N/E 12+3+1 dea, 4+1 blo, rest spread between ear & soul
Tainted, Rotting, Dark Fury, Consume Corpse, Ward Against Melee, Ward Against Foes, Ward of Stability, Resurrection Signet

1 Spellbreaker/Infuse, 1 WoH Monk, 1 RC Prot Monk (This part is changable)

--

Basicly, this is how it works:

Four Warriors is a lot of pressure already, but when added in with the shutdown of what was classic echo weariness spam its hard to defeat once it soaks in. The range on "Fear Me!" is pretty big, about the size of a ward. You can use it around twice every 4 seconds which is already quadrouple old sig builds, if there was only two Warriors that is. But theres 4, so 8x the denial that was in those builds. With that, you're also putting out 4x Warrior heavy pressure which with zero energy on their offense and their defense they will crumble fast. Some matches may seem like they are going poorly, but make sure you hit Fear Me every time its recharged, and things will change soon when their team runs completely out of energy - they will seeminly fall out of nowhere.

Hope that helps all of you trying to "farm" fame.

Seaguard Kha
23-08-2006, 16:24
This is my build, me and my guild have been running this build and variations for almost a month.

Credit should go to its creators: Zaishen Escort Service [CASH]

Dolfin
23-08-2006, 16:24
Steal CASH's build because they beat you with it and then claim it as your own and post it on some forums?

gg.

edit: read Kha's post.

edit2: I heard you lost to CASH twice.

edit3: Oh and both flawless.

Nurse With Wound
23-08-2006, 16:33
We've been running this build for a month... You lost to us twice... Thanks for giving us credit after copying it from us.

Also, you're a bad looser. You couldnt defeat our mostly r6-4 guild with your leet r10+ buddies, and thus you're calling the build which relies heavily on good monking as a build that can be run by IWAYERS. We, at CASH never run gimmicks we always try develop our own builds. You lost to us twice, then stole the build and now you're isulting the guild suggesting that we can't play. I'm looking forward to meet you again in HA and show you and you're leet buddies ( who flamed us after the loss ) how CASH plays for the 3rd time.

B Ephekt
23-08-2006, 16:38
4 warriors is a gimmick, ok? The only difference between this build and iway is the monk primaries and lack or spirits; the offense of the build is still based on C-spacebarring a lot of pressure.

No that I'm trying to call you "noobs" or anything, but the build isn't that far from IWAY and most certainly is a gimmick.

Almas Darksoul
23-08-2006, 17:19
Whether or not Djinn "stole" the build to post it on forums I don't know, but if it was done, I think that's kinda sad. I do know that CASH have been running this build for some time, as I am good friends of about 1/4 of the members (they are the "final result" of my looking for HA thread spawned so long ago, and I am extremely proud to have helped in the forming of the guild).

Regarding whether the build is a gimmick by nature - I don't really think so. Some builds that popular HA guilds have run involve 3 warriors (my guild runs a 3war build in HA from time to time as well), so 4 warriors isn't too large a step. As well as this, the backline is completely different to IWAY's (n/mo, n/mo r/e and 3x mo/me are considerably different), a setup which is generally harder to play than IWAY's.

Either way, I think any team that runs an unconventional, non-holding build deserves to be commended. For many, the 8v8 fights of HA are what makes it such a fun place, and builds designed to stay alive for several years are one of the factors to blame for the decrease in entertainment that many get from the arena. CASH are a guild of relatively new PvP players who are already managing to beat some of the better teams in HA, and for that they should be applauded, not have their builds published online.

Seaguard Kha
23-08-2006, 17:46
tbh, i don't see why you would post a build which proved itself against you, without giving credit where credit is due and at the same time insinuating that those who played it had no knowledge of anything other than iway wars

If that's so, then you got owned by people with no knowledge of anything other than iway wars.
Twice.
Flawless.

Lady Jan
23-08-2006, 17:46
kudos to almas.

rexkenley
23-08-2006, 17:56
You are all wrong! This is ANET's Build! ANET says I could use it and there is nothing any of you can do to stop me! Muhahahaha! Credit goes to ANET!

Lady Jan
23-08-2006, 17:58
"Hope that helps all of you trying to "farm" fame."

- note the sarcasm. Welldone on giving fame farmers something more to piss you off with. gg overall.

Lady Jan
23-08-2006, 17:59
"You are all wrong! This is ANET's Build! ANET says I could use it and there is nothing any of you can do to stop me! Muhahahaha! Credit goes to ANET!"

Lol.

B Ephekt
23-08-2006, 18:01
Regarding whether the build is a gimmick by nature - I don't really think so. Some builds that popular HA guilds have run involve 3 warriors (my guild runs a 3war build in HA from time to time as well), so 4 warriors isn't too large a step..
I would consider 4 warriors a gimmick because the team's only source of damage is warrior pressure (with the added bonus of edenial, and maybe adrenal spikes). That's a gimmick, plain and simple; it's not 'balanced' in any sense of the word. It may not be a FoTM, but the build is certainly based around a gimmick.

Nurse With Wound
23-08-2006, 18:14
The build has no holding power at all, it cant defend for long, all it counts on is weak positioning and weak backline of enemies. Besides this is the old outdated version, that is easily beated by hex teams, NR Tranq, new IWAY and whatnot.... New IWAY? I think not.

All that matters to us the form of your post. You dont post other people builds without giving them any credit. You post your OWN builds, and when you dont have enough creativity, stick to posting soft porn in fan arts forum.

Almas Darksoul
23-08-2006, 18:23
Strictly speaking, their damage isn't all coming from the warriors - they have a necro too, who they often sub for a variety of different pressuring characters. Regardless, I don't think this thread should degenerate into arguing about what exactly defines a gimmick build - there is very little pure definition of what makes a gimmick build, and there is nothing wrong (in my eyes) with running one anyway. What is true is that this build is original and functional while not being lame.
The fact that a build has 4 warriors does not make it synonymous with IWAY - that would be similar to claiming that any build with 3-4 rangers is a ranger spike, when there are many successful builds which have that many rangers without having any of them spiking. While the C+Space mentality can be played, for the successful application of this build, aware warriors are needed who are able to position and attack correct targets for maximum efficiency of Fear Me!.

Buddah
23-08-2006, 19:14
:rolleyes:
I saw basically the same idea being used months ago by Starlight Extinction. So it's nothing really new.

Seaguard Kha
23-08-2006, 19:53
I think the reason we take exception to this is that its posted as tho its his. And its not basically the same build its the exact one.

Djinn Effer
23-08-2006, 20:40
I'm sorry, you didn't invent "Fear Me!" builds. Infact I have posts on several forums with "Fear Me" builds which predate your "for a month" by nearly a year, I can link you to them if you're really that far in the dark. Let me go ahead and reply to everything..


This is my build, me and my guild have been running this build and variations for almost a month.
Sorry, you didn't invent it. I've ran variations of it and so have many other people since release and even prerelease.


Steal CASH's build because they beat you with it and then claim it as your own and post it on some forums?

gg.

edit: read Kha's post.

edit2: I heard you lost to CASH twice.

edit3: Oh and both flawless.
Translation: Hi, I'm a **** talking noob.


Also, you're a bad looser. You couldnt defeat our mostly r6-4 guild with your leet r10+ buddies, and thus you're calling the build which relies heavily on good monking as a build that can be run by IWAYERS. We, at CASH never run gimmicks we always try develop our own builds. You lost to us twice, then stole the build and now you're isulting the guild suggesting that we can't play. I'm looking forward to meet you again in HA and show you and you're leet buddies ( who flamed us after the loss ) how CASH plays for the 3rd time.

The posted "Fear Me!" build is a gimmick, so if your guild runs this. I'm sorry but you run gimmicks.

I lost to you twice with my "r10+ buddies" flawless, huh? and they flamed you after? and now I'm somehow suggesting that your guild can't play...?

k.... Nice imagination there. When did I "get flawlessed by your guild twice with my r10+ buddies that flamed you afterwords" and when did I "suggest your guild can't play"? Proof, quotes, anything?


Either way, I think any team that runs an unconventional, non-holding build deserves to be commended.

No, they don't.


tbh, i don't see why you would post a build which proved itself against you, without giving credit where credit is due and at the same time insinuating that those who played it had no knowledge of anything other than iway wars

If that's so, then you got owned by people with no knowledge of anything other than iway wars.
Twice.
Flawless.

Directly quote for me where I "insinuate" that anyone who has played this build has no knowledge of anything more than an iway war. If you can't do that, then stfu.


You post your OWN builds, and when you dont have enough creativity, stick to posting soft porn in fan arts forum.

Ad Hominem - Attacking the person instead of attacking his argument.

aka: Flaming - Rule #1. Thou Shalt Not Flame.


damage isn't all coming from the warriors - they have a necro too, who they often sub for a variety of different pressuring characters

Actually, in the posted build the damage is coming from the Warriors. Degen is not considered damage, and neither are defensive wards. So, you are inherently wrong.

Almas Darksoul
23-08-2006, 21:32
Claiming that "degen" is not "damage" is little more than arguing over semantics. It's similar to saying that lifesteal skills deal no "damage" - while this is true in the way GW's calculations work, it does not in any way mean that people are not losing health as a result of the skills. I would think that most people understand that when I say "deal damage" I mean "make the enemies lose health", of which the former is much easier to type.

While it is true that fear me builds have been known for some time, they have never become truly popular. It seems a bizarre coincidence to me and seemingly CASH members that you would create a thread about the build when you have zero recent history of posting threads containing your builds (and very few commenting on current HA strategies and builds). You ask for proof that X team has beaten you - I doubt many teams take screenshots of every victory they make, even if said win is against people who flame them for it.

Note by that saying "This is generally addressed to IWAYers that can only run IWAY" you imply that people who use the build are "IWAYers that can only run IWAY".

Djinn Effer
23-08-2006, 22:02
Claiming that "degen" is not "damage" is little more than arguing over semantics. It's similar to saying that lifesteal skills deal no "damage" - while this is true in the way GW's calculations work, it does not in any way mean that people are not losing health as a result of the skills. I would think that most people understand that when I say "deal damage" I mean "make the enemies lose health", of which the former is much easier to type.

Read bolded, it is not damage - it is degen. Which, is nullified regardless if the opposing team also has a Tainted Necro...


While it is true that fear me builds have been known for some time, they have never become truly popular.

They will, if not nerfed. If I'm not mistaken, the reason they havn't became "truly popular" is because there were more effective ways of e-denial, where as now most alternatives are gone but "Fear Me!" was buffed, was it not? (In terms of range.)


It seems a bizarre coincidence to me and seemingly CASH members that you would create a thread about the build when you have zero recent history of posting threads containing your builds (and very few commenting on current HA strategies and builds).

When I have zero recent history of posting thread containing my builds...? I don't post my builds because I don't generally make builds that are simplistic to run, builds I create are actually most of the time hard to run. This was posted because it would be simple to run with any random pug group.

Very few posts commenting on current HA strategies and builds.. I wonder why.. Maybe its because I'm a GvGer not a tomber... Or y'know if you're so into studying my post history, maybe its cause I nearly rage quit posting on these forums perminantly awhile back? Could that be it? Just maybe?



You ask for proof that X team has beaten you - I doubt many teams take screenshots of every victory they make, even if said win is against people who flame them for it.

I havn't played with people that flame like that for awhile, the only people I've recently played with that flames like that would be.. EnS, and I havn't played with them for probably atleast a month.


Note by that saying "This is generally addressed to IWAYers that can only run IWAY" you imply that people who use the build are "IWAYers that can only run IWAY".

It is addressed to IWAYers, IWAYers that don't want to be stuck running IWAY for the rest of their life. -or- for people that just want an IWAYesque build (e.g. fast wins, no holding power). It isn't hard to play, it isn't hard to find people that can fit the roles in the build either. Assumptions are a very bad and misleading thing you know...

I'd prefer people running this than keep running IWAY, cause it would if nothing else make IWAY less prevelent and possibly bring about a meta shift.

If you want to argue that this build is any harder than IWAY to run, then you quite simply don't know what you're talking about. If anything its easier than IWAY to run, and if it had been as popular as IWAY for a year with so many people only playing it then I'm sure it would be hell of a lot easier in every aspect.

This build could even be changed into IWAY.. Take out the 3 Monks, add 2 Necros and a Trapper, or One Necro and two Trappers, then modify the then current Necro bars to incorporate healing. Then you change the Warriors to W/R, take out shock add a pet, take out sprint add IWAY. You could even take out Frenzy and put in TF if you really wanted to. Then look at that, IWAY with Fear Me. Not too many changes, and if not very many things were changed how are the builds that much different to run?

slakt
23-08-2006, 22:22
This is my build, me and my guild have been running this build and variations for almost a month.

Credit should go to its creators: Zaishen Escort Service [CASH]

I know nothing of the threadstarters intentions with this thread, but claiming that you "created" it is just silly. Maybe threadstarter posted it skill by skill as a diss to your guild, I don't know, but if that's the case you should only have said something along the lines of "that's the build we run", rather than claiming that you created it. "Fear Me!"-builds have been around since... well, since the "Fear Me!" skill was put into the game, and the posted build has nothing new in it. Reminds me of a guy saying that he created Weakness + Oppressive Gaze spike.

Mr Dbest
23-08-2006, 22:25
I know nothing of the threadstarters intentions with this thread, but claiming that you "created" it is just silly. Maybe threadstarter posted it skill by skill as a diss to your guild, I don't know, but if that's the case you should only have said something along the lines of "that's the build we run", rather than claiming that you created it. "Fear Me!"-builds have been around since... well, since the "Fear Me!" skill was put into the game, and the posted build has nothing new in it. Reminds me of a guy saying that he created Weakness + Oppressive Gaze spike.

Lol, i think i remeber that one... =]

mssux
23-08-2006, 22:34
What I find coincidental is that with all the HA we do I'd expect to see this build. If indeed someone else ran it, however thats not the case. I've not seen this being ran by anyone else, I've seen variations on this but I dont think its coincidence that he's suddenly decided to post it after twice being flawlessed by us.

I dont care about who "created it" what I do know is that this is the same build we've ran on and off between others for a solid couple of months. Someone perhaps more polite would point out they had seen someone else running it, however thats not the done thing on the net plagirism is rife. It was only a matter of time before someone we have rolled with it has posted it to claim that its their idea. And what I do know is this is the build we run.

Almas Darksoul
23-08-2006, 22:35
Whether or not disease is "damage", the end result of the two is the same - the presence of the warriors is to cause pressure, and the function of the disease is pressure through degeneration. Saying that disease is worthless if the enemy have a tainted necro is also rather odd - not many teams run one, and in this instance, the necro becomes purely defensive for both teams.

The Edenial drain reduction (and fear me boost) has been in place for quite a while now, and the lack of major changes in the metagame suggests that people won't adopt fear me builds, for the reason that they really are quite ineffective in comparison. It takes quite a few people to make the effect worthwhile, and this means counters to the build are much harsher.

Your comments on not posting builds and talking about HA underline my point entirely - you have gone from never posting any builds at all, and only making complicated ones, and not talking about HA, to posting a simplistic HA build, which is a large jump. I don't see how ragequitting forums effects the style of posts you make.

You say you haven't played with people who flame in a while... can you prove this? Please do so - as you want people to prove you have played with them, evidence that you haven't would be useful.

And changing the build mentioned to IWAY? Oh, it only requires completely replacing three characters and changing half the bar and the secondary of the other five. The build has a completely different backline and has different means of pressure to IWAY - where IWAY uses spirits, traps and mass enchant removal, this build uses Edenial. Lots of builds use warriors for pressure, the fact that this build uses four does not make it near-identical to IWAY.

Nurse With Wound
23-08-2006, 23:01
I dont mind at all that you posted this build, cause it's a simple and not effective version of what we are usually playing in HA. The wards shut it down compleatly, new IWAY outpowers it, hex builds, or degen builds destroys it with ease. I dont have to explain that NR/TRANQ is the death of this build. You're not be farming a lot of fame with that what Neato posted ^^. Better stick to iway cause its more efective and powerful.

Our point in whole argument was that you copied the exact version we were running three days ago, and beated you with it twice ( only cause you were unprepared, this build we were playing has so many counters i cant be bothered to list them here ). I know we didnt invented the "fear me pressure", but you copied our exact party setup, even down to the monk backline and skills we were using. That's not very fair, you should give us credit for that VERSION of fear me, not just blatantly steal it. Almas Darksoul of the British Bulldogs is the best witness. As our good friend, he has full acess to our guild forums. The EXACT version you posted today was posted on our forums month ago. Coincidence? Divine intervention?

At the end of the day i dont care, that version which you gave here was flawed and we stoped playing that. But try to be fair, and dont lie that you played it or you invented it. Three days ago we met each other in HA , we beated you with it, you copied it here. And it's fine, the builds are being copied from the very begining of this game. You only forgot about one thing in your post - " this was played by Zaishen Escort Service [ CASH ] " when i met them in HA ". End of the story. And that's my last post in this topic.

Cheeers!

PS sorry for any grammar mistakes, english is my 3rd language.

Djinn Effer
23-08-2006, 23:26
At the end of the day i dont care, that version which you gave here was flawed and we stoped playing that. But try to be fair, and dont lie that you played it or you invented it. Three days ago we met each other in HA , we beated you with it, you copied it here. And it's fine, the builds are being copied from the very begining of this game. You only forgot about one thing in your post - " this was played by Zaishen Escort Service [ CASH ] " when i met them in HA ". End of the story. And that's my last post in this topic.

I've never met you. I'm glad I have fans though. If you're so sure that you played me then.. What was I running and whom was I playing with? Surely you could tell me if you randomly happend to remember I played you with my apparent "r10+ buddies".

Its highly probable that I have went against you in tombs and not known it, but the exact build I posted was from some pug group, not a guild group. That'd be why "credit" was not given to anyone, I would not know that "CASH" made it as I rarely tomb nowadays... Infact, I just started tombing again what.. This week?

You should really learn to calm down about builds though, it shows that you're new - regardless if you are or not. Builds will be taken 24/7 without your permission. When I was in YAY, their holding build which they claimed as original and theirs and defended to the death.. It was infact Miss Air Jordan's holding build, just very heavily modified. I know this because I was in MS with Jordan, and played with him all the time. He used glitches though, which YAY did not. Such as 11 insp drain enchant not costing energy to use but returning the full gain. Lots of other things as well. Regardless of any of that, calm the **** down. I never said I made the build, credit was given to nobody. If you want to start throwing out that I "insinuated" that I made it and insulted your guild and then throwing flames and insults it really does make your entire guild look bad...

If you want to try to claim credit for a build thats been around since the dawn of time, go ahead but I'm not going to help you do so. I've never even heard of your guild, well alone know what you run. (Well, I suppose I do now seeing as to how you've apparently told me.) But that being the case, you must not hold much huh?

Nurse With Wound
23-08-2006, 23:37
I've never met you. I'm glad I have fans though. If you're so sure that you played me then.. What was I running and whom was I playing with? Surely you could tell me if you randomly happend to remember I played you with my apparent "r10+ buddies".


You were in a group with Equinox, you were playing an ele ( called Evil Neato ) in some version of balanced pressure ( i dont remember your exact setup i dont like to copy builds ). We werent there as a guild group, but as Burning's DW team ( with couple of friends ) - The guilds tags on 4 of us were visible though. And no, afaik you dont have "fans", wake up, this is video game, you're not a movie star.

Seriously, lets finish this argument here.

Djinn Effer
24-08-2006, 00:18
You were in a group with Equinox, you were playing an ele ( called Evil Neato ) in some version of balanced pressure ( i dont remember your exact setup i dont like to copy builds ). We werent there as a guild group, but as Burning's DW team ( with couple of friends ) - The guilds tags on 4 of us were visible though. And no, afaik you dont have "fans", wake up, this is video game, you're not a movie star.

Seriously, lets finish this argument here.

I've never even heard of someone named Equinox... The only people I've played with recently would be.. My Ipod and Clarice Starling, spellings could be off.. I was infusing for both.. That would've been Neato Maliclot my PvE Monk for which I got the name "Neato".. It has black fow, not my PvP name Evil Neato which has been a Trapper for quite some time... I'm not really sure how you could mistake the two, unless you're just making it up... But, to give you the benefit of the doubt.. Maybe I was Monking and we did face your pug, that could be whom was running the Fear Me build. But, I havn't used a PvP Ele for quite some time.. I have a PvE with everything that I'd need for it, so there would be no need to use a PvP... (In that case, it would have been Tiffany Maliclot - by the way.)

But, if you say I was playing with someone named "Equinox" it could've been an imposter of me, but then again.. I've only seen one person ever try to do that and they didn't even know they were doing it.

And to your last comment of "you have no fans you're not a movie star", well in all honesty you don't know if I'm a movie star or not, I could be. But, that is irrelevent. There are certain people on GW and any game for that matter that are "famous", well known or heard of. Last Of Master for example, just about everyone on GW knows who he is; He is famous, no he may not be a movie star but in GW he is famous regardless.

David Holtzman
24-08-2006, 01:12
This is my build, me and my guild have been running this build and variations for almost a month.

Credit should go to its creators: Zaishen Escort Service [CASH]


Claiming to be the inventor of something is both stupid and pointless.

It's stupid because no one cares. People don't care if you think you invented something because all they care about is results. It's very nice that you think you're a super special innovator but the only thing that matters is who wins the matches. Innovation is very nice, but if someone can take your build and run it better than you, your innovation means not a thing. I've never lost a halls match because the other team invented something.

It's pointless because not only is there no way to prove it, but the proof would mean nothing either way. There is no particular reason to believe you "invented something" (incidentally, Fear Me spam has been run for well over a year. In fact it was nerfed because of this). And even if you did, so what? If the special part about innovation is coming up with a good idea, then what does the time frame matter? Who cares who was first? The order in which the people innovated matters not a whit to how good the idea is. Even if you could prove you were first it wouldn't change a thing.

Wet One
24-08-2006, 01:13
I was the Neato imposter! It was me! I admit it. I was also talking massive amounts of doodoo cause everyone knows that how i am. Now that its all cleared up, Neato how dare you steal my build and then post it for all to read without giving me credit!!!!! You dont remember me running this last June? June of '05? What a nub!

rexkenley
24-08-2006, 01:46
To all those who think they are the creators of Guild wars skills, please post your anet employee badges. If not, please refrain from making a fool of yourselves. Or at least patent those builds and then you can claim that they are "your" builds." (Post an image of patent application)

Jacobbs
24-08-2006, 06:39
Well to be honest, I'm a part of [CASH] but like many that have posted here, I don't see the fuss over "zomg it's our build"

Builds get stolen and ****, post it first or it will be posted before you "lay claim to it". Besides, it's HA, no one really cares :P GvG4life.

nuetina
24-08-2006, 06:57
Stop trying to claim builds... wow I'm sorry you have only played halls for a month or 2 but a lot of guilds used to run this exact type of build. There is no such thing as making a build.

Acerbus Aether
24-08-2006, 13:39
Djinn, you're rapidly becoming one of my personal heroes, I haven't seen the ability to correctly ward off hordes of naysayers in a while. :shocked:

A build is a build, if your guild plays it, great, so do a lot of people. ''Fear Me!'' epressure has been around for a while, I don't see why flame-leanings and fanatical "I claim thee build and I pwn j00" have to be put in a post about a simplistic build that has the same purpose of IWAY but involves maybe a little bit more strategy, people have run versions of it before, [CASH] has too apparently, great, I don't see your points on the attack on Djinn except claiming ownership, Ad Hominem, and arguments over damage calculations in GW. Builds have been debunked, dessicated, reproduced, reincarnated, modified, etc. It isn't successfully running a country/leading an army/important, stop the petty accusations. *Braces self*

Buddah
24-08-2006, 16:12
You might feel one way, but myself can list a few more people that'll just ignore the bulk of what they say thanks to this thread.

Darknicrofia
24-08-2006, 19:08
Stop trying to claim builds... wow I'm sorry you have only played halls for a month or 2 but a lot of guilds used to run this exact type of build. There is no such thing as making a build.


....but don't you know that Dryder invented GW and every build in it????!!!!!!!



/end sarcasm

lifeinthefridge
24-08-2006, 19:17
....but don't you know that Dryder invented GW and every build in it????!!!!!!!



/end sarcasm

Of course dryder invented guildwars and everything whoever doesent no that is tottally noob

katya
24-08-2006, 19:57
Of course dryder invented guildwars and everything whoever doesent no that is tottally noob
Vin Diesel invented Guild Wars before he was born. Or was that Chuck Norris?

Mr Dbest
24-08-2006, 21:40
chuck, duh...He's got his own emote for a reason.. =]

Apok Omni
25-08-2006, 00:28
Back on topic...

Djinn did not state that they created the build, so to the people of CASH who are blaming her for ''taking'' your version of it, you are making a pointless arguement. In fact, it is showing us how big your egos are. In case you are wondering, thats a bad personality.

Fear Me pressure has been done before ever since people have used ''Fear Me''. It isn't new and no one can claim ownership of it. It would be like saying that YOU created the wheel, not the caveman.

Parker Bsb
25-08-2006, 14:34
Ok first off - I invented the internet... and those little umbrellas that girls put in their drinks.

Secondly - Dii's run Fear-me back during the beta weekends and we never claimed to invent it.

Thirdly - Next person to post anything not directly relating to the BUILD will be getting a ban. Seriously Djinn posted a build that's been around for a LONG time and gets jumped on for "stealing your build". Re-reading the OP I don't see once "I INVENTED THIS BUILD" or any other such nonsense.

If you have a problem with this warning PM me and we'll chat. Otherwise drop it and let's all at least be civil.

Edit: Forgot to mention, degen does not count as "damage per se" otherwise it would not work so well on the GL in the early stages of the fight.

Also - 4 Melee damage dealers IS gimmic, easily countered by aegis spam, wards, blind etc... balanced means it is not easy to counter them because they can change their tactics mid battle if they need to.

David Holtzman
25-08-2006, 19:37
Edit: Forgot to mention, degen does not count as "damage per se" otherwise it would not work so well on the GL in the early stages of the fight.

Are you sure about this? I'm fairly sure that the GL has both natural regen and has degen capped on him.


Also - 4 Melee damage dealers IS gimmic, easily countered by aegis spam, wards, blind etc... balanced means it is not easy to counter them because they can change their tactics mid battle if they need to.

Actually you can run 2 W/Mo Empathic Removals to create a fairly even build. As for wards, not a serious problem when you can send off people to gank, and even less serious if you're running "Fear Me!" spam.

Sadistic Nightmare
25-08-2006, 23:37
Neato - What is it, that you have against Iway, that you don't want people to play it ?

Djinn Effer
26-08-2006, 02:02
Neato - What is it, that you have against Iway, that you don't want people to play it ?

If that isn't just being fatuitous.. You can pm me in-game, don't derail this thread any further than it has been.

Ark of The Covenant
26-08-2006, 02:30
sry...wrong post.............

Parker Bsb
26-08-2006, 13:32
Are you sure about this? I'm fairly sure that the GL has both natural regen and has degen capped on him.

Actually you can run 2 W/Mo Empathic Removals to create a fairly even build. As for wards, not a serious problem when you can send off people to gank, and even less serious if you're running "Fear Me!" spam.

http://www.guildwars.com/press/interviews/fansite-friday62.php

He has 5 arrows of regen, around 2000 HP (I read somewhere that it's closer to 2400 but havn't confirmed that). If you can get 15 degen on him it negates the natural regen and doesn't affect how much damage you can do per second before he gets healed.

As for the 2nd comment, sure you can make them less counterable - they still rely on 1 mechanic (melee damage) for wins, and are thus more counterable than a standard "balanced" build.

Also it's hard to Fear me spam if you are wiffing more than 1/2 your hits :wink:

David Holtzman
26-08-2006, 20:15
As for the 2nd comment, sure you can make them less counterable - they still rely on 1 mechanic (melee damage) for wins, and are thus more counterable than a standard "balanced" build.

Also it's hard to Fear me spam if you are wiffing more than 1/2 your hits :wink:

Just build up outside the wards and Fear Me inside them. Should take care of any wardcampers easily enough. That's part of what we've been running in tombs and the principle is the same.

Djinn Effer
28-08-2006, 05:15
Just build up outside the wards and Fear Me inside them. Should take care of any wardcampers easily enough. That's part of what we've been running in tombs and the principle is the same.

Doesn't your build just run one Fear Me as its sole e-denial? I was watching the other day and noticed that. I could be wrong, but whats the point of that? (If it is infact the only source of edenial.)

Sol Dethgard
28-08-2006, 11:34
I would consider 4 warriors a gimmick because the team's only source of damage is warrior pressure (with the added bonus of edenial, and maybe adrenal spikes). That's a gimmick, plain and simple; it's not 'balanced' in any sense of the word. It may not be a FoTM, but the build is certainly based around a gimmick.Plain and Simple ALL builds are gimmicks. Ranger spike, Blood spike, Iway, ViM, Even Balanced are all gimmick builds. There is no diffrence in the effectiveness of any of these build when compaired to the other. So many people complain that everyone of these builds are overpowered & should be nerfed, yet others have no problem beating any of theses builds. It always amazes me how many people say any one of these build takes no skill, yet they have never played them. How do you know there is not skill involved? lets look at all the individual builds out there and see how much skill is involved.

Iway - Build up adrinaline, spike down targets, if ally dies Iway & res

Ranger spike - Target is called, countdown on TS/Vent, time attacks

Blood Spike - Same as Ranger spike, but you have to help heal too

Edenial mesmer - Spam Energy draining skills to keep target at 0 energy

Chocking Gas Ranger - with Practiced stance up keep chocking gas up and spam interrupts on targets

Migraine mesmer - Keep migraine on target and interrupt every spell

Shock War - See Iway, Minus using Iway, Knockdown when target kites

Warder - Spam Ward of Melee, Foes, Stability, occasionally cast obsidian flame

ViM - place traps around opponents, when low on health use ViM near foes

Shall I go on? Most of these builds don't even require you to change targets, just spam skills fairly mindlessly. & for the record I have played everyone of these builds, I've also played every type of monk, and tbh monking is the one that takes the most skill, however even that is a gimmick.

slakt
28-08-2006, 13:20
I agree, there are no builds in the game that require any skill, and monking is a gimmick.

deathy
28-08-2006, 16:03
alot of skill in guild wars is based around how effectively you communicate within your team, and things like movement and timing, and general awareness of your surroundings and opponents

ill just take an example from your list:

Chocking Gas Ranger - with Practiced stance up keep chocking gas up and spam interrupts on targets:

spam?, you need reflexes, you need to know what to interrupt, who to interrupt, while still being aware of the enemy and your team

while on a basic level builds may seem simple, if you look further there is a huge gap between mindlessly performing your role, and actually helping the team to victory...^^

B Ephekt
28-08-2006, 17:10
Plain and Simple ALL builds are gimmicks.
I would consider a build that only has one form of offense or defense, like a necro spike or heavy melee damage (iway/thumpers, etc), a gimmick because the entire build can be shut down with a few simple counters that most groups will always have. Balanced relies on multiple classes for it's offense and defense, and is harder to completely shut down.


There is no diffrence in the effectiveness of any of these build when compaired to the other. So many people complain that everyone of these builds are overpowered & should be nerfed, yet others have no problem beating any of theses builds. It always amazes me how many people say any one of these build takes no skill, yet they have never played them. How do you know there is not skill involved? lets look at all the individual builds out there and see how much skill is involved.Perhaps you should put more effort into reading before you make such lengthy replies. My posts were only commenting on the build being a gimmick, not it's effectiveness or the effectiveness of other gimmicks. I also don't recall saying gimmicks were noob builds, implying that they required no skill to play, or making any mention of overpowered or nerfing, so perhaps you can get off your rant and spare us your winded rambling.

As for the builds you've played, awesome, you've been around tombs for more than a week. I'm impressed. :wave:

EcHoMaN
28-08-2006, 20:12
OG spike lacks skill big time, flame on.

David Holtzman
28-08-2006, 20:37
Doesn't your build just run one Fear Me as its sole e-denial? I was watching the other day and noticed that. I could be wrong, but whats the point of that? (If it is infact the only source of edenial.)

Well, I did say Fear Me was only PART of our anti-ward strategy (the best is to just interrupt the ward of course). We've got burn on the mesmer and debshot on the ranger as well. The point is that we have enough offense in the right places that it becomes very, very hard for their monks to keep them alive (normal monks can do it for a minute. Very good monks can go maybe 5), toss in some edenial and the monks start being very pressured. It doesn't have to be a lot, but every energy they lose is one fewer they have for saving their team. The build is all about attacking from every possible offensive point, and edenial is one of those ways.

************************************************** ********

As to skill:

Skill is a meaningless term. You may disagree, but the very fact that there is disagreement makes skill as a term worthless. From what I can tell, "skill" is just a scrub-term along the lines of "lame" or "cheap" or "gimmick". It's a term they throw at the other players when they lose to something, so that they can claim some sort of imaginary "moral" victory. Oh, we lost but their build takes no skill! etc. Which of course leads directly to this set of questions:

If something is so "skillless" as to be obvious, why can't you counter it and win? If it's really that simple and repetitive and "gimmick" then you shouldn't be having any difficulties tearing it apart.

And if something really can't be countered and is so "skillless," wouldn't a player be some sort of fool not to use it? What does that make you? Are you running your build just to boost your ego about how "skillfull" and special you are? Play to win, not to stroke your own ego.

Parker Bsb
29-08-2006, 01:58
Disagree completly... if there were no skill this game becomes about luck only. So evil, IQ, WM are just really lucky guilds?

PSSHT - as for a build requiring no "skill" well scrubs can claim that uter tripe but anyone with a brain will admit if they can't beat a skill-less team/build they are no better themselves.

Apok Omni
29-08-2006, 07:16
Anyone can put skills together by random and still do great. It takes true skill to play anything. Gimmicks are there for quick-get-in-and-play pugs who don't have time to make a build. Personally, I made an effective Panic build (zomg, its mine, not yours, don't take it, gosh.....) and completely took my pug by surprise once I casted. Was it effective? Yes, because I used the elite and the rest of my skills the way they are supposed to be played.

Right now, people are lacking true build making skills and are dependant on top-guilds to perform a build and poof! Its a gimmick.

On topic, this is an old build, Djinn never once said ''This is MY build'', so get over it, plz.

taiwf
29-08-2006, 11:22
Well, I did say Fear Me was only PART of our anti-ward strategy (the best is to just interrupt the ward of course). We've got burn on the mesmer and debshot on the ranger as well. The point is that we have enough offense in the right places that it becomes very, very hard for their monks to keep them alive (normal monks can do it for a minute. Very good monks can go maybe 5), toss in some edenial and the monks start being very pressured. It doesn't have to be a lot, but every energy they lose is one fewer they have for saving their team. The build is all about attacking from every possible offensive point, and edenial is one of those ways.

************************************************** ********

As to skill:

Skill is a meaningless term. You may disagree, but the very fact that there is disagreement makes skill as a term worthless. From what I can tell, "skill" is just a scrub-term along the lines of "lame" or "cheap" or "gimmick". It's a term they throw at the other players when they lose to something, so that they can claim some sort of imaginary "moral" victory. Oh, we lost but their build takes no skill! etc. Which of course leads directly to this set of questions:

If something is so "skillless" as to be obvious, why can't you counter it and win? If it's really that simple and repetitive and "gimmick" then you shouldn't be having any difficulties tearing it apart.

And if something really can't be countered and is so "skillless," wouldn't a player be some sort of fool not to use it? What does that make you? Are you running your build just to boost your ego about how "skillfull" and special you are? Play to win, not to stroke your own ego.


couldn't agree more of what you say. Finally got someone with mature thought.

Xunlai Agent
29-08-2006, 20:54
I love this thread and it's another one with IWAY in the title. Hihip Hurray!

slakt
29-08-2006, 21:01
As to skill:

Skill is a meaningless term. You may disagree, but the very fact that there is disagreement makes skill as a term worthless. From what I can tell, "skill" is just a scrub-term along the lines of "lame" or "cheap" or "gimmick". It's a term they throw at the other players when they lose to something, so that they can claim some sort of imaginary "moral" victory. Oh, we lost but their build takes no skill! etc. Which of course leads directly to this set of questions:

If something is so "skillless" as to be obvious, why can't you counter it and win? If it's really that simple and repetitive and "gimmick" then you shouldn't be having any difficulties tearing it apart.

And if something really can't be countered and is so "skillless," wouldn't a player be some sort of fool not to use it? What does that make you? Are you running your build just to boost your ego about how "skillfull" and special you are? Play to win, not to stroke your own ego.

While I agree with your general viewpoint, I just thought I'd say that there are in fact builds/strategies that even you could call "lame" and "skillless", and that's what I like to call Rage Quit-way. Basically, pack only defence, that is; no offense whatsoever apart from wands, and just stay alive until your opponents rage quit. It's a guaranteed win, but would you still chant "play to win" if for example iQ used that against WM in the final?

Of course, that is a quite extreme example, but I'm just pointing out that sportmanship can be found even in GW.

David Holtzman
29-08-2006, 23:40
While I agree with your general viewpoint, I just thought I'd say that there are in fact builds/strategies that even you could call "lame" and "skillless", and that's what I like to call Rage Quit-way.

Really? You are trying to tell me what I would call a build? Fascinating. I do not think this will go well for you at all.


It's a guaranteed win, but would you still chant "play to win" if for example iQ used that against WM in the final?

Um... yes? Obviously?


Of course, that is a quite extreme example, but I'm just pointing out that sportmanship can be found even in GW.

Sportsmanship has nothing to do with build choice. Sportsmanship is the way a person conducts himself towards other players. It has to do with manners and politeness and etiquette, not with playing.

Djinn Effer
30-08-2006, 22:05
owned imo.



(Example of bad sportsmanship by the way. ^^)

slakt
30-08-2006, 22:28
Really? You are trying to tell me what I would call a build? Fascinating. I do not think this will go well for you at all.
Well, it depends on how you interpret the word "could" (not "would") in the sentence, but yeah, it was badly formulated by me, I should have had a "I think" in there.



Um... yes? Obviously?

Really? Alright, there we go, we have different views on what's acceptable in order to win. Here's how I see it: You can do whatever you want to win, as long as it's in-game. For example, some people call iQ's VoD-strategy against EviL lame, but I do not, because they simply used the game mechanics to their advantage. If those mechanics are unbalanced or not is not an issue, because that's the mechanics given to the players.

But if you use factors outside of the game to increase your chance of winning, now that's unfair/lame/bad sportsmanship/whatever you want to call it. For example, if you put poison in your opponents food before the game, that's not accepted by the "play to win" idea, since it's not your playing that gives you an advantage, it's an outside factor.

Now, Rage Quit-way. One team brings a build which makes it impossible for any team to win by playing the game. The only way to win, is if the other team gives up. It's no longer a game of Guild Wars, it's now an endurance test outside of the game: the team which can go the longest without raging/falling asleep/dying/whatever will win (because no one will actually rage quit after an hour when 50,000 dollars is in the pot, they will hang in there as long as they can). Now, outside factors (physical and mental fitness, patience/temper, preparations in terms of sleep, food etc) will decide who wins, and obviously the team who was prepared for a game lasting for days will have a greater chance of lasting the longest (and when all the opponent players have rage quit/passed out/died, their characters are easily wandable. "gg").

So basically, a game with Rage Quit-way has nothing to do with in-game factors (it has nothing to do with the game at all), it lets you use factors outside of the game to increase your chance of winning, so therefore I don't think that it goes under the "play to win" motto. Personally, I could not respect such a strategy, but you can, so again, that's the difference between us I guess.

Sportsmanship has nothing to do with build choice. Sportsmanship is the way a person conducts himself towards other players. It has to do with manners and politeness and etiquette, not with playing.
While that is true in general, Rage Quit-way serves as an exception. Choosing that build/strategy is bad sportsmanship imo.

David Holtzman
31-08-2006, 03:32
Well, it depends on how you interpret the word "could" (not "would") in the sentence, but yeah, it was badly formulated by me, I should have had a "I think" in there.

A build is a build. Play to win.


Really? Alright, there we go, we have different views on what's acceptable in order to win. Here's how I see it: You can do whatever you want to win, as long as it's in-game.

As long as it's in-game and tournament valid, sounds ok to me.


But if you use factors outside of the game to increase your chance of winning, now that's unfair/lame/bad sportsmanship/whatever you want to call it. For example, if you put poison in your opponents food before the game, that's not accepted by the "play to win" idea, since it's not your playing that gives you an advantage, it's an outside factor.

Sure, but what's that got to do with build choice? Or strategy?


Now, Rage Quit-way. One team brings a build which makes it impossible for any team to win by playing the game.

Doesn't exist in GW, so not to worry.


The only way to win, is if the other team gives up. It's no longer a game of Guild Wars, it's now an endurance test outside of the game: the team which can go the longest without raging/falling asleep/dying/whatever will win (because no one will actually rage quit after an hour when 50,000 dollars is in the pot, they will hang in there as long as they can).

Even if this did exist, so what? If the game didn't want people holding on indefinitely it would instigate a timer or some end-game function. We have one actually, VoD. The mechanics of the game provide for a build that wins by dragging fights out. That's the entire mechanic of the VoD build!


Now, outside factors (physical and mental fitness, patience/temper, preparations in terms of sleep, food etc) will decide who wins, and obviously the team who was prepared for a game lasting for days will have a greater chance of lasting the longest (and when all the opponent players have rage quit/passed out/died, their characters are easily wandable. "gg").

Those factors always matter in a tournament. Don't think so? Watch what happened to iQ in game 3 after fatigue sets in. It is a fact of tournament life that fatigue and conditioning play major roles. Read a book on tournament chess or M:TG or CS or Street Fighter. Read Sirlin. They all talk about fatigue and ways to get around it.


So basically, a game with Rage Quit-way has nothing to do with in-game factors (it has nothing to do with the game at all), it lets you use factors outside of the game to increase your chance of winning, so therefore I don't think that it goes under the "play to win" motto. Personally, I could not respect such a strategy, but you can, so again, that's the difference between us I guess.

The difference is between using something inside the game to affect something outside it and using something outside it to affect something within it. Anything within the game mechanic is fair play according to the game's rules. Anyone not playing in accordance with the game's rules is dumb. So therefore inside the game all tactics are fair. If those tactics end up affecting something outside the game, well, too bad. However the converse is not alright: say kicking someone in the shin so they can't pay attention to the game. That sort of move is not tournament valid and not in line with playing to win, so that can be excluded from viable actions.


While that is true in general, Rage Quit-way serves as an exception. Choosing that build/strategy is bad sportsmanship imo.

Again, you are not using the word "sportsmanship" correctly. It simply does not mean what it is you are trying to use it for. Sportsmanship has to do with courtesy and manners and cheerful losing, not with playing a build to make your opponent happy. The latter is generally referred to as, "stupidity."

slakt
31-08-2006, 13:38
Sure, but what's that got to do with build choice? Or strategy?


So basically, a game with Rage Quit-way has nothing to do with in-game factors (..), it lets you use factors outside of the game to increase your chance of winning.

Doesn't exist in GW, so not to worry.
Bring 8 Dark Escape monks and spread the barrier/bond lovin', or whatever. It's obviously not technically impossible to kill such a build, but that's not relevant, since it's the idea of the build that matters, and the idea is to make the game drag on as long as possible without any intention to complete the game objective (in this case killing the Guild Lord).


Even if this did exist, so what? If the game didn't want people holding on indefinitely it would instigate a timer or some end-game function. We have one actually, VoD. The mechanics of the game provide for a build that wins by dragging fights out. That's the entire mechanic of the VoD build!
Just because there is a system for ending long games doesn't mean it does a good job (Soccer for example has a better system). Rage Quit-way could still hold strong at VoD. The damage/health modifications would need to increase over time in order for VoD to work as an effective game ending mechanic (it works for "normal" builds though).


Those factors always matter in a tournament. Don't think so? Watch what happened to iQ in game 3 after fatigue sets in. It is a fact of tournament life that fatigue and conditioning play major roles. Read a book on tournament chess or M:TG or CS or Street Fighter. Read Sirlin. They all talk about fatigue and ways to get around it.

Of course they matter, but I thought we agreed on that it's not cool to take advantage of such factors, since they are not in-game factors? Example - one team member from your opposing team gets into an accident, and they can't provide a replacer: so, they can only bring 7 people to the table. Personally, I would, if it was possible, face them with only 7 people aswell. But I assume that you would just roll them with 8 people; "gg, bring 8 people next time stupids"? Or the same thing in a more likely situation: if they get an err=7 at 0.03, would you say gg or agree on a restart? (when there's lot of money in the pot some people tend to act differently though, but let us look aside from that). If your opponents are suffering from a slight lag, will you take advantage of that and use a spike build?

If your opponent is tired (that is, tired because they have had to play more/play on worse times than you. If both teams has been given similar schedules, this is not a factor. Also, atm we're discussing tournament play, which is a very special sort of play, but my views Rage Quit-Way applies to normal ladder games aswell. It would not be effective there though, because of the way the ladder works, but that's not relevant), is suffering from jet-lag, bad connection or whatever, sure, there's nothing stopping you from taking advantage of those outside factors by picking strategies that abuse them. I'm just saying that I don't have as much respect for a team doing it as for a team who tries to win by just playing the game. Yes, I get your point that choosing spike against a lagging team would still be "playing the game to win" since build choice is an in-game factor. But connection is an outside factor, so I don't think it's cool to abuse it. And if "sportmanship" is not the right word to describe these issues, then whatever, I can't come up with a better word.

I don't know if you like soccer, but in that game, while it's not in the rules, it's general custom to play the ball over the side line if the opposing team has a injured player lying on the field. I understand that you wouldn't do that, you'd stomp the injured player in the face, take the ball and attack with your numeral advantage? I wouldn't do that, so alright, call me (along with every player of the most successful competative game of all times) stupid, but that's just the way I feel.

Lothiron
31-08-2006, 18:36
One round of bickering degenerates into a new round of bickering.

Why is this thread even remaining open?

Xx Scorpion X
31-08-2006, 20:48
**** some people actually have no life beyond guild wars and argue about a game.....

David Holtzman
31-08-2006, 23:40
Bring 8 Dark Escape monks and spread the barrier/bond lovin', or whatever. It's obviously not technically impossible to kill such a build, but that's not relevant, since it's the idea of the build that matters, and the idea is to make the game drag on as long as possible without any intention to complete the game objective (in this case killing the Guild Lord).

*shrug* run it if you like. Good luck surviving at VoD. Good luck killing our NPCs. We will spike you down eventually and it will be game. Play to win, not to make games last a while.


Just because there is a system for ending long games doesn't mean it does a good job (Soccer for example has a better system). Rage Quit-way could still hold strong at VoD. The damage/health modifications would need to increase over time in order for VoD to work as an effective game ending mechanic (it works for "normal" builds though).

No, NPCs kill at VoD. It's too much damage for people to heal through. Spikes will still be effective. More so at VoD.


Of course they matter, but I thought we agreed on that it's not cool to take advantage of such factors, since they are not in-game factors?

I see no reason why I ought not take advantage in game of a player's lack outside of the game. So long as the move is done in-game it's fair play. If I know a player hates Ineptitude and will become stupid and ragey with it in the build, I will absolutely take it. His rage may not be in the game, but so what? If an in-game move makes me win, I'll play it. If the enemy doesn't like my moves, well, good. They're not supposed to.


Example - one team member from your opposing team gets into an accident, and they can't provide a replacer: so, they can only bring 7 people to the table. Personally, I would, if it was possible, face them with only 7 people aswell. But I assume that you would just roll them with 8 people; "gg, bring 8 people next time stupids"?

I would never trashtalk an opponent. However I would roll them 8v7. It's not my fault they come to the tournament with 7 people, and it's not my responsibility to make up for it. I certainly wouldn't wish it on them or cause it to happen, but if it does happen well, too bad for them. Nothing personal, just playing within the rules of the game.


Or the same thing in a more likely situation: if they get an err=7 at 0.03, would you say gg or agree on a restart? (when there's lot of money in the pot some people tend to act differently though, but let us look aside from that).

If the tournament coordinator decided a rematch was in order, I'd say sure and go for it. If he decided the match was still on, I'd do my best to beat the other team. I don't join a tournament to coddle the enemy and ignore his weakness, I come to beat him. You're welcome to play a strategy that makes you weaker as a team, just hope you never meet someone with my philosophy. Playing to win beats all other opposing ethos.


If your opponents are suffering from a slight lag, will you take advantage of that and use a spike build?

Absolutely.


I'm just saying that I don't have as much respect for a team doing it as for a team who tries to win by just playing the game.

Well here's the thing: no one cares about your respect or lack thereof. They aren't playing to make you happy, they are playing to win the match. Playing to win is the only viable competitive strategy. I've never seen a tournament for people who played nice. I've never seen free travel or sponsorships awarded to the best sports.

Any in-game move is playing the game. Period. This is true by strict definition. You may not like some in-game moves, but so what? You can not like them all you want and the moves will still be there waiting to be used.


I don't know if you like soccer, but in that game, while it's not in the rules, it's general custom to play the ball over the side line if the opposing team has a injured player lying on the field. I understand that you wouldn't do that, you'd stomp the injured player in the face, take the ball and attack with your numeral advantage?

I'm sorry, did soccer change its rules so that assaulting other players is tournament valid? I have advocated nothing except playing by the rules of the game as opposed to silly made-up rules. As for playing to win, the obvious strategy is to abide by the custom. The reason is clear: reciprocal altruism. By playing the advantage you may win the game, but in the long run it will cost you matches. Simple prisoners' dilemma. The best choice is to act altruisticaly.

Hendrixbrother
01-09-2006, 00:03
I agree with the attitude of "playing to win" when it comes to all situations within the boundaries of the game, such as strategy, builds, tactics, etc. Even things like the absence of a Z-axis, and formerly the "click-to-pass" technique and the NPC backdoor trick. All of these things exist within the game.

However there are ways to win outside of the game that I would classify as cheating. For example, the "heal sig hack". The engine Guild Wars runs on is simply not equipped to handle the rapid activation and cancellation of healing signet. I'm not sure how it works in technical terms, but I do know that everyone who sees it Error7s.

Employing this tactic must be considered cheating because in no way does it attempt to win through normal gameplay. Rather it abuses a flaw in the programming of the game in order to achieve victory. That is the difference between cheating and playing to win.

Djinn Effer
01-09-2006, 00:24
For example, the "heal sig hack". The engine Guild Wars runs on is simply not equipped to handle the rapid activation and cancellation of healing signet. I'm not sure how it works in technical terms, but I do know that everyone who sees it Error7s.

Employing this tactic must be considered cheating because in no way does it attempt to win through normal gameplay. Rather it abuses a flaw in the programming of the game in order to achieve victory. That is the difference between cheating and playing to win.

Are you sure you just don't have a really ****ty graphics card...? I've never e7'd cause of that.. and I do it all the time, people I know do it all the time. :shocked:

David Holtzman
01-09-2006, 01:49
However there are ways to win outside of the game that I would classify as cheating. For example, the "heal sig hack". The engine Guild Wars runs on is simply not equipped to handle the rapid activation and cancellation of healing signet. I'm not sure how it works in technical terms, but I do know that everyone who sees it Error7s.

I'm with Djinn on this, I do it all the time (in fact so does every top pvper I can think of) and I've never seen someone err7 becuse of it. The problem is most likely on your end.

And anways, it doesn't affect my point which was to play any tournament viable move. You won't get a tournament that allows you to cause other people's connections to fail, so doing so is not a vlaid move and is thus cheating.

Hendrixbrother
01-09-2006, 02:01
By rapidly activating and cancelling healing signet, I'm talking about doing it at a rate of over 100 times per second. I'm not talking about screwing around by yourself. A certain player (not revealing names, but I'm sure some people may be able to guess), developed a script to do this, and in testing it has been shown that it is not the individual computers but the Guild Wars graphics engine itself that fails.

David Holtzman
01-09-2006, 11:20
By rapidly activating and cancelling healing signet, I'm talking about doing it at a rate of over 100 times per second. I'm not talking about screwing around by yourself. A certain player (not revealing names, but I'm sure some people may be able to guess), developed a script to do this, and in testing it has been shown that it is not the individual computers but the Guild Wars graphics engine itself that fails.

So he's using a macro then. Um, that's great, but what does it have to do with anything? The whole conversation was about in-game moves. If he's using a script, obviously it's not an in-game move.

slakt
01-09-2006, 13:58
If I know a player hates Ineptitude and will become stupid and ragey with it in the build, I will absolutely take it.
Again, things like that are not factors, since it's his own fault that Ineptitude makes him rage, and he the enters the tournament despite it. But if Anet slips a pill into his food that messes with his brain and makes him hate Ineptitude, that's a factor. Just like if they give him a worse computer/connection than they give you.


Absolutely.

Alright, there we are again, that's the difference between you and me.

I've never seen a tournament for people who played nice. I've never seen free travel or sponsorships awarded to the best sports.
Is this sarcastic or not? It seems so, but it confuses me since it wouldn't harmonize with the rest of your replies. Anyway, if you were not sarcastic, read on.

If you haven't heard of such tournaments, I'll give you an example that you can check out; the FIFA World Cup, a soccer tournament. The most successful competative tournament in the world. If you want to participate in it (or any other FIFA event) you first of all have to sign a Fair Play Declaration. And if you don't play nice and be a sport, you can't play in the tournament. They'll simply ban you. And I'm not talking only about blatantly breaking the rules, being a bad sportsman gets you banned aswell. You don't seem to follow soccer, but you might still have heard of an Italian player called Marco Materazzi who got a two day ban for trash talking in the final?

Also, UEFA (like FIFA but restricted to Europe) uses a Fair Play ranking system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Fair_Play_ranking) to decide three of the teams that get to play in their tournament "The UEFA Cup".

And pretty much every respected tournament in big sports have Fair Play Awards. If we continue to use the FIFA World Cup as an example, in that tournament you get "the FIFA Fair Play Trophy, a diploma, a fair play medal for each player, and $50,000 worth of football equipment to be used for youth development." - wikipedia.org.

Call the soccer community, FIFA and UEFA stupid and uncompetative, but they must be doing something right since they are number one in the world when it comes to competative play. More than one billion (that is, a sixth of the world's population) watched the final game in the FIFA World Cup. And if you want, check out the salaries of the top players; it's not even funny as a joke. The competition level of soccer is unreal, I know that from personal experience. Not only do you have to be a natural prodigy, you also have to dedicate your entire life to the sport if you want to have the slightest chance at reaching anywhere the top. All this in a sport where fair play, respect, sportsmanship and acting "in the spirit of the sport" (If that was applied to Guild Wars, that would mean "no bug abuse") is key. And if you ever get your eyes on the "Football's Code of Conduct" released by FIFA, check out point 1: "Play to Win."

Parker Bsb
01-09-2006, 14:17
Ok I'm starting to agree with Loth... you've both made your points several times, how 'bout we let the fifa / play2win debate die and agree to disagree.

slakt
01-09-2006, 14:46
Alright, fine with me. Discussion is what forums are for though, and other people are involved in this one aswell. The subject is also a very relevant subject in all competative games. But sure, fine with me.