What in God's name was IQ thinking in Match 3? [Archive]

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Valerria

27-08-2006, 04:09

WM run the same Mo/A build EVIL used, so I suppose IQ thought they could overpower it again by piling on the damage...

But they moved around like rankless HA pugs running IWAY w/o any spirits.

It was so bad that I won't be surprised if people started thinking the match was fixed. :sealed:

Hendrixbrother

27-08-2006, 05:12

Ensign admitted he screwed this up. The plan was to take WM napping and overwhelm them with their high offense. Unfortunately the dom mesmers ruled the smiters.

Ensign also said that the thinking was that with one bodyguard down it would be easier the next time, so they pushed again. We all know how that turned out.

Blaine Derrick

27-08-2006, 05:27

Posted on another forum:

To get the basis for that crazy tactic out there:

1) We expected War Machine to split multiple people into our base from the beginning (which was incorrect)
2) We expected War Machine to run Mo/A's (which was correct)

We believed that if both of those were true, then we could take triple smite into the guild lord area on any map, and their monks would be unable to keep up with the damage. We could then take the bodyguards, and have a nasty 8v8 fight in an enclosed space before the gank got back.

The thing that we did not anticipate was the three mesmers. Those shut down our three smiters hard, which kinda made it impossible to blow people up with smite.

It was unquestionably a hell of a gamble, one that was going to either win or lose spectacularly. Unfortunately for us, it lost spectacularly.

The map really hurt them, imo, as a team sitting just outside their front gate in the area leading up to the stand has a very good view of just about every important feature on the map (flagstand, their own back gate, the other side path). Since WM did not, in fact, elect to split right away (besides sending their flagger to kill a few NPCs once it became clear what iQ was doing), they were able to identify and react to what iQ was doing very quickly and go **** face with their dom mesmers.

dantheman5415

27-08-2006, 06:55

Louis Ste Colombe

27-08-2006, 08:45

iQ gambled against iB: They win

iQ gambled against EvIL: They win

iQ gambled against WM: They lose

You can't always win when you gamble :wink: But hey, no one can deny iQ sure put up a hell of a fight this tournament

Basically, that's it: it's the same kind of "meta"strategy that gave victory vs Evil and defeat versus WM.
You can't say that the win vs Evil was great thinking and strategy without also taking in that kind of defeat; same kind of thinking at work.

Eventually, people will end up playing against the meta in so many different ways, that "balanced" build will end up being the safest option facing many extreme build.

Or not.

At least with balanced, one might have a winning chance all along, game might not be over by just watching the skill bar, and thinking "duh, who out-thought the other one build?" to figure out who wins.

Louis,

Aurelia Dark

27-08-2006, 11:08

galad

27-08-2006, 11:33

"If it hadn't been for 3 mesmers on wm's team that might have been very different"

This was basically what I put forward to "the shing-jea/pre-sear experts" in observer who were calling them noobs and everything else under the sun...

They took a risk, every match has them for the post part but this was noticeable for it's huge failure/success margin... Comiserations to them, they played well through the tournament .

I doubt it, they played like a bunch of noobs on that last game. I mean they tried to rush once were wiped and what do they try after that? SAME thing all over again.

If you were wiped floor with first time you rush there, what makes you think it would work on second time with 30 dp? It might have been good match but IQ were just suicidal.

It was more fun to watch though than their last match against Last Pride.

Productivity

27-08-2006, 17:40

If you were wiped floor with first time you rush there, what makes you think it would work on second time with 30 dp?

The fact that you've dropped a bodyguard, halving their AOE damage?

galad

27-08-2006, 20:10

The fact that you've dropped a bodyguard, halving their AOE damage?

Yes, since obviously that one bodyguard did 30% of all damage?

Xunlai Agent

27-08-2006, 20:19

It was interesting and quite entertaining! Kinda silly too.

skuldnoshinpu

27-08-2006, 21:03

Yes, since obviously that one bodyguard did 30% of all damage?

Exactly, plus once they 'realized' that the mesmers were shutting down their smiters, they were really foolish to think they could take down the other bodyguard with the same tactic and 30% dp.

sir lockt

28-08-2006, 07:26

I doubt that they could do that.. but there wasnt anything else they could do. They gambled on the 3 smiters, these where shutdown by the 3 mesmers (nice suprise of WM!) so your trick doesnt work... simple

Then there is one thing to do... try to dominate the battle... so they rushed in. maybe WM tries to split or something... in this case the WM build >> iQ build. Triggering GL attacks warnings can make people do strange things.

I am quite offended by the people flaming on the tactics of iQ. They brought themselves in the finals by an on-orthodox way, fought themselves through the world-champion and defeated WM once... bringing in a nice spicy GWFC. I really loved them...and if the guilds of people commenting on iQ actions where half as good...there would be a real interesting ladder season coming...

Thumbs up iQ! and congrats to WM by out-thinking them... or out-gambling them...

ZiegDivine

28-08-2006, 23:24

I thought it was funny ... I mean, come on, running into GH in the finals for the gank? To repeat, it was a build that would either definetely win, or definetely lose. I laughed all the way through the match.

dantheman5415

29-08-2006, 01:18

From Guru:

The second charge into their base was a huge mistake, that came out of desperation because we were so hosed. The 'logic' went something like "they only have one bodyguard left, it will be easier this time!" We really should have sat back and re-evaluated what was going on, and tried to fight them straight up.

We know that the match looked really bad. But that's always going to happen when you gamble and lose. If you slug it out for 30 minutes and lose at VoD people call it a hard fought match even if you didn't have much of a chance, but when you put all the chips in and either win or lose spectacularly, you're either hailed or called a moron.

Consider everything you've seen this tournament, though. Games were rarely won or lost in slugfests, but through tricks around the lord and VoD that teams were not prepared for. We went all in on them putting people into our base, and not having the backline to deal with triple smite in an enclosed space like the lord room. To an extent we were right, but 3 mesmers with double enchant removal rocked our three smiters, and it went downhill from there.

But stop and consider for a moment. If they only had two mesmers, don't you think that we would have gotten both bodyguards in that crazy push? Wouldn't that have seriously changed the nature of the game if they no longer had that big NPC advantage? Moreso, consider what happens if they bring only one mesmer. I still think that between three smiters and three melee, that with only one mesmer, War Machine would have lost right then and there, and the flavor of this conversation would have been completely different.

Did we lose? Yes, we lost spectacularly. But don't immediately turn that into 'you guys are morons'. Knowing we were up against the best adapting team in the world, we put all of our chips in and tried to win big, and it just didn't work out. Oh well. =)

Peace,
-CxE

Parker Bsb

29-08-2006, 02:04

I would like to point out that likley no one that re-posted ensign's discussion got his permission (and I can guarentee you he would not have given it had they asked). So please discussing the match is fine, but calling them n00bs is still flaming.

Also pretty dumb considering they went to the finals where likley you didnt :wink:

Apok Omni

29-08-2006, 04:38

iQ put up a fight (gamble, really) against WM and lost because they didn't expect WM to have three Domin Mesmers. That's it. Doesn't mean they were ''noobs'', just that they didn't know what the other team was running and got stomped. However, they put up a good fight, made a mistake, and lost. It happens.

Don't expect a rank 100 guild to cream a rank 10,000 guild because of rank, as rank only shows their place in the ladder, not their experience.

Magic Depression

29-08-2006, 10:21

Doesn't mean they were ''noobs'', just that they didn't know what the other team was running and got stomped. However, they put up a good fight, made a mistake, and lost. It happens.

I absollutely agree with you Apok.
Someone who is calling "noobs" a Guild that made it to the final of the Championship just makes me want to hit him with a sledge so his brain would start working again (maybe).
And more than that....if THEY are noobs and YOU (whoever is calling them that) are not, then can you please explain how come that THEY were at the Championship Finals and YOU weren't?????? :tongue:

ZiegDivine

29-08-2006, 18:58

I absollutely agree with you Apok.
Someone who is calling "noobs" a Guild that made it to the final of the Championship just makes me want to hit him with a sledge so his brain would start working again (maybe).
And more than that....if THEY are noobs and YOU (whoever is calling them that) are not, then can you please explain how come that THEY were at the Championship Finals and YOU weren't?????? :tongue:

Don't get too excited, it's just a game.

Asteria Helstron

03-09-2006, 23:53

Cirian

04-09-2006, 17:40

I thought it was a risky gamble, and this time iQ got unlucky - it's like Ensign said, if you gamble and win you're a hero, if not you're a moron. I thought it made for a dramatic final anyway :happy:

Vela

05-09-2006, 15:55

Relax It's Just a [GAME]!

The amount of game-IQ that [iQ] possesses should be unquestionable. I think it was an interesting third game. It did not work out, so what? If all moves always work out, won't we all be trying to do the same thing again and again? Like 3-2-1 in HA? So, calling [iQ] idiots or n00bs is simply stupid because, they are one American guild we should be quite proud of.

Go [iQ]. Pull some more stunts and keep this game interesting. I do miss [aW] though. Stop playing WoW and come back to play GW once again!

- Vela

Lytha

07-09-2006, 16:45

iQ has always gambled in big games and won or lost becuase of it. this wasn't anything new, but the fact that they were shut down and supprised by that 3 mesmer build, it was nothing they could have done. if you fight stright up with 3 smiters vs 3 mesmers, you wont have a great chance in winning even if you fought straight up in your face. it's simple, they gambled and lost becuase WM were ahead of them this time around.
The fun about this is actually, that one of the 3 mesmers was an illusionist who roamed around in the base of iQ during the entire match.

So all the smiter monks got shut down by only 2 mesmers.

Premium

07-09-2006, 23:34

With 4 copies of enchant removal between them >_>

xdreadx

08-09-2006, 13:19

Thanks Lytha,

for adding that it had been only 2 dom Mesmers and an Illusionist that did the job on iQ´s smiters. IMO it was iQ who did the job for WM.

"Also of note, WM chose to bring two Mesmers with two Enchantment-removal spells each (the third Mesmer did not carry Enchantment removal)."

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive/articles/stateofthegame/gwfcwrapup.php

Nor was it really surprising that WM played with 3 Mesmers, as this is a build that can be tracked back to them directly, plus they had played variations of it at the GWFC finals, so it was not surprising to see WM play it in the last game. It was rather to be expected as the build gives you enormous control and leverage against close to any build out there.

My guess is that iQ was simply mistaken and maybe a bit drunken from their last minute/match performance at these finals, so instead of playing their heavy physical robust smite build they came up with what they came up with, totally neglecting any analysis on WMs play throughout the tournament, leading to the devasting unbalanced approach. They tried that kind of play against EviL in the first game with their ranger spike and got a bashing for it. This is IMHO what chanced out iQ.

For this they paid dearly.

Anyway, it was quite refreshing to see iQ perform, as it highlighted one particular cut from the battles, the VoD, in which they continued to show everyone - from game to game - that whatever happened throughout the game, you can still do it in VoD. This clearly showed that VoD is sort of an "minigame", where all cards are dealt anew. That was refreshing and inspiring to see.

just my 2 cents

Dread

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