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Ranger Nietzsche
31-08-2006, 22:11
Even though my last thread on the topic (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=400768) didn't get much of a response I decided to continue my estimations of the size of parts of our GW world.

This was my method. I found a long, uninterrupted distance in Old Ascalon to run. I picked it because of the ease of killing things in my way. One assumption I made is that Vertical difference doesn't change the horizontal speed* I ran for precisely 20 seconds. Next I found the distance ratio between how far I ran and a larger stretch on the zoomed in World Map (1:7)** Then I found the ratio between that stretch and the overall dimensions of the world map (1:16.5 vert and 1:19.5 horiz)*** Some math later, I found the time to run the full length of the map to be 38.5 minutes vertically, and 45.5 minutes horizontally. Now, this corresponds to an incredibly small map. The fastest marathons (unofficial records here) ever ran are around 2 hours. So, given that our characters never get tired etc. the world map is about 8 miles across, and slightly less vertically.

End message: This place is tiny, but larger than cantha on a ratio of about 1.35:1. This ratio is an additional confirmation of the accuracy of my determinations, as the aspect ratios of the two maps should be equal, and then the ratio of vertical to vertical should equal the ratio of horizontal to horizontal. In my case they differ by about .1 which is not too bad considering my methods.


EDIT: Added Pictures
*I made this assumption based on a few trials, and that there is no Z-axis in the guild wars universe, the map moves under the player, the character model isn't actually moving at all.
**Zoomed in World Map

http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/2118/zoomedintyriansizeyr6.png

***World Map

http://img308.imageshack.us/img308/6164/zoomedouttyriansizemapfe3.png

****Error analysis, see other thread, the error analysis is the same.

Medic
31-08-2006, 22:24
It is interesting...how about a link to the other thread? :)

Quintus Antonius
31-08-2006, 22:35
How can you tell how fast you ran, or how long the distance was? Assumptions are a poor basis for mathimatics.

As for the distance the blue line shows, why would people need boats for distances that can easily be swum in under 3 minutes?

This whole thing is rather hard to swallow, in my opinion. But I'm not saying you are wrong, simply that it is not proportional.

Seyfert
01-09-2006, 00:49
i don't think theres really ever been any doubt that Tyria is tiny

Aksharack
01-09-2006, 05:00
Well, there is the obvious issues here with this endeavour, particularly the application of normal world measuring systems, such as time, to the tyrian world. Still, it is apparant from this that characters, when allowed to move in a straight line, are able to to traverse large portions of the map very quickly.

I find this attempted to be quite interresting, as it allowes an accurate estimation of the diference in relative size between different lands, a useful thing to be able to do.

The application of things like "miles" to the map, however, is not very appealing, since taken literally it greatly decreases the apperant size of the world. I very much doubt that any one will take seriously the implication of this finding Lion's Arch and Ascalon are only 4 miles away from each other as the crow flies. It does not jive with other things that we know from the game itself.

Although it is still interresting to think about the map from a real world perspective. Its curious to think that the game space has aquired enough of a reality for us to want to consider it as a real space, measurable human minutes...

Ranger Nietzsche
01-09-2006, 16:42
How can you tell how fast you ran, or how long the distance was? Assumptions are a poor basis for mathimatics.

As for the distance the blue line shows, why would people need boats for distances that can easily be swum in under 3 minutes?

This whole thing is rather hard to swallow, in my opinion. But I'm not saying you are wrong, simply that it is not proportional.

Firstly, the distance in this case was measured in reality as a measure of time over distance. It would be very difficult to determine the average speed of a guild wars character which is why I didn't do that. I don't know how fast I ran or how long the distance was. I only know the ratio of time to that unit distance is 20sec:1unit distance. I also know the ratio of that unit distance to a larger distance is 1:7. Finally I know the ratio of that larger distance to the full world map to be 1:19.5. Multiply the ratios, units cancel and you get 45.5 minutes per unit world map.

If you find a problem with my methods other than your disagreement with the results please say so.

I measured the distance as a distance relative to time, IE the distance one travels in 20 seconds. That blue line is nearly exactly 7 times the distance one covers in 20 seconds of running in guild wars.

The accurate part of this is the time it takes to run the map, 45.5 minutes and 38.5 minutes. The milage is a rough estimation based on normal human running speed over long distances (marathons) and is, admittedly very inaccurate because our characters run faster than normal humans.

As for applying Earth time to tyrian time, Earth time = tyrian time. This is proven over several instances: countdown times in pvp maps, canthan bonus times, the 10 minute timer for keeping the ghost alive in Dunes of Despair mission.

To repeat, the important part of this is simply that it takes a guild wars character roughly 45 minutes to traverse the entire world map from edge to edge. This is verifiable over several trials. How this fits in with our view of Tyria is something I leave to others to explain.

Quintus Antonius
01-09-2006, 17:20
Earth time does not equal Tyrian time. You have no idea how long those 10 minutes are to the characters. A clear indication of this is in the Eternal Grove Kurzick Factions mission. After fighting for just 20 minutes (or less depending on your pace), Danika says, "We've been fighting for an hour", when the time percieved by the player is actually much less.

What I question, is not your calculations, but rather, your methodology. I could be wrong, and completely off base here, but have you done trials in several different areas of Tyria? For instance, clear an area of the Crystal Desert, and repeat the same test. Go to the Maguum Jungle, or the flat areas near Lion's Arch and do the same thing. Run the Northern Shiverpeaks (which is basically a straight line), and test that. I'm guessing that all the times will come up different because we simply do not have a set unit or speed on which to measure.

Ranger Nietzsche
01-09-2006, 17:28
Actually quintus, when I said multiple trials I meant exactly that.

I did in fact run a section of the desert, the northern shiverpeaks, and kryta.

The same distance was covered in 20 seconds as in ascalon.

Our characters run at the same speed regardless of where they are. And IMO it would be absurd to assume otherwise as footstep intervals are consistent everywhere and to believe our characters run at different speeds in different maps would mean our World Map is an incredibly inaccurate Time-Space distorted lumpy mess.

Drec Sutal
01-09-2006, 17:28
Hrm... how about using something like wells as was originally proposed, or scorpion wire? This would give an actual foot-measure, and would eliminate the assumtion that it is being run at marathon speed and additional time-distance caluclations, reducing error.

I do agree that you run at the same horizontal speed on flats and up hills, though.

Ranger Nietzsche
01-09-2006, 17:39
good idea, although the wells wont work as the descriptions have removed the feet definition.

*edit*
Testing completed. Using Scorpion Wire. Over 25 trials, our characters move at a speed of about 25 Tyrian feet per earth second. Admittedly faster than I anticipated.

Which gives us: 68,250 Tyrian feet (12.93 Tyrian miles) East-West and 57,750 Tyrian Feet (10.94 Tyrian miles) North-South



Scorpion wire description: For 8...18 seconds, the next time you and target foe are more than 100' apart, you teleport to that foe and that foe is knocked down. This spell has half the normal range.

Quintus Antonius
01-09-2006, 22:53
Actually quintus, when I said multiple trials I meant exactly that.


Then, I am mistaken about that. I apologize, but thank you for correcting me.

halfthought
01-09-2006, 23:53
there obviously size exaggeration, anet could not have possibly made hundreds of game miles

Age
02-09-2006, 01:48
Earth time does not equal Tyrian time. You have no idea how long those 10 minutes are to the characters. A clear indication of this is in the Eternal Grove Kurzick Factions mission. After fighting for just 20 minutes (or less depending on your pace), Danika says, "We've been fighting for an hour", when the time percieved by the player is actually much less.

What I question, is not your calculations, but rather, your methodology. I could be wrong, and completely off base here, but have you done trials in several different areas of Tyria? For instance, clear an area of the Crystal Desert, and repeat the same test. Go to the Maguum Jungle, or the flat areas near Lion's Arch and do the same thing. Run the Northern Shiverpeaks (which is basically a straight line), and test that. I'm guessing that all the times will come up different because we simply do not have a set unit or speed on which to measure.
When you think about the time in Tyria say Compared to North America it is defintely longer.This is if you remeber your presearing days and then going off to post when you get to post 200 years have past so Tyrians would have long life span maybe they live 400 years.

Quintus Antonius
02-09-2006, 01:54
Two years have passed, not 200. The number they give us there is in-fact, in-game time, as we the players did not wait two years to during that cinematic.

moenbase
04-09-2006, 14:58
Well... uhm, not sure if this adds a bit to the topic.
But as I read, Tyria is smaller then Cantha.
Or otherwise. But that doesn't really matter much to my 'explanation' or however you'd like to call it.

If the world in Guildwars is shaped like the Earth. In a sphere kinda way.
Then the 'world', the continent in the north and in the south would be smaller then most continents . If you measure the outline....from 1 side of the Northpole, to the other side of that same Northpole. Assuming you walk in a straight line horizontal. It would be much much shorter then when you walk for example the Horizontal line in the middle section of Earth, for example when you start in Africa. The outline there is much greater.

If you apply this to the GW world. Perhaps you could either say that or the world is indeed very tiny.
Or perhaps the Tyrian continent is on, or near the North or Southpole of the world.

That could explain a bit why it all looks so small and you run from 1 side to the other in about less then a hour.

Ofcourse this 'theory' has many flaws.
Some examples that would easily tear this apart would be:
1) We don't know if we walk further to the east, we would end up getting in the Wilds. In other words...is there another continent/land if we go all the way easy, behind the mountains of Ascalon?
2) Is the world round? They have flying/floating castles, and many more fantasy things, so perhaps the continent is floating as well. (use your imagination)
3) Imagine i'm at the northpole. At a point that if I go all the way east, I would be exactly on the very same spot in 40 minutes.
I don't know the equation for it, but I think that the world of Tyria we now see is only a tiny fraction of what we see now.
4) The biggest flaw of the theory would be. If the world is round then there should also be another distance from east to west if we move on the Vertical axis. However, this could be explained by if the world is so enormous that we don't notice the different. If Tyria very small and can be found somewhere in the middle of the world then the world around it could be enormous.

Perhaps this gives a bit more perspective, then again, it could be totally crap.


About the Danika thing in the Eternal Grove mission. Perhaps she's thinking that we are fighting for over an hour. Tense moments like that (the attacks from Luxons, and later by Afflicted) could feel like a 'lifetime', but is in fact just a couple of minutes.

But on the hand, if she's really accurate, then the time of our world and hers could be different.

Ranger Nietzsche
05-09-2006, 21:09
mmm I would like to see where you read that tyria is smaller than cantha.

it could very well be in terms of playable area. the most accurate results from my experiments are the ratios of size between the overall world maps, namely that the Tyrian world map is about 1.35 times the size of the canthan world map. but in terms of playable area cantha may be larger.

tho i think many would disagree with you on that point. i personally, at leat, have the impression that when i uncover fog in cantha that my percentage increases much faster, indicating a smaller playable area.

if someone could confirm either way that would be nice

windcaller
05-09-2006, 23:24
The information about Cantha being smaller than Tyria is correct (due to the titles).
However i disagree with the fact that Tyria is small. ANet might hold a surprise by uncovering more of the Tyrian continent as it did with Nightfall, showing us that South of the Crystal Desert there's more land. What about N, E, W? And, about measuring the continent itself, i doubt that ANet thought that we will make calcualtions regarding the size of the place. Imagine lowering the character speed by 20%. The world would seem 20% bigger. As it is a Fantasy game, characters might run as fast as a cheetah runs in our world. Who knows?

my 2c.

JohannusEricksson
06-09-2006, 18:51
I'm certain that there is size exxageration. Our Avatars are HUGE in order to show up properly. Everything shown is shown to give an idea of the environment. Do people really think that a valley could be full of bears and bandits running across each other's paths? Or that Ashford is bigger than Ascalon? Or that Ascalon is so small (even pre-sear) for a 'city'? Or that as soon as you leave an outpost you're into combat? Everything is completely out of scale just like in wargaming where 1 figure can actually be 100 men (i'm using representation here, not scale as an example). Unfortunately that then makes all the good work above harder to work out as we have no idea as to how big we actually are.

Camaris Spectre
14-09-2006, 21:29
Nice. I did a much cruder study more than a year ago and I think I came up with 10 miles across tops.

As others have stated, the answer is obvious. You are seeing the world through your character's senses. Just because YOU would have to be 10 yards away from a monster to see the details of their scales doesn't mean your character can't see the same thing from a mile off.

Tedium of travel is not worthy of your characters attention, so you perceive time passing quickly. This is also why you can fight one group of while mantel without agroing another group that should be within easy earshot. The two groups are actually quite far apart, but painfully close to your characters' acute senses.

Wethospu
15-09-2006, 06:13
Another reason why map feels so small is that you can use that instant travel thing. :tongue:

windcaller
16-09-2006, 11:02
imagine having to walk all the time: LA-Ascalon-Drok's-LA and so on.

Apu
07-10-2006, 18:46
I really think that the time in the arenas is NOT lore is just game mechs to show us how much time we need to w8. Doesnt mean that we cant scale the time to like 1 minute is 1hr or something like that and im very inclined to that meaning that u need 2hrs to prepare for battle (2 minutes) before your doors open. Or that u need 8hrs of preparation between fight in the Heroes Ascent because u need to w8 for other group to reach your same area. I dont know if im making sence and I know im way off topic with this so sorry.

On topic.

Nice job Ranger Nietzsche, if u need someone to clear an area for u or just help with mobs before u move to test again u can call me "Apu Yobairu" in game.

jum...i just tough of something "what if the TYrian metric system is not the same as ours? meaning the and inch is in fact a feet for them?"

Anyways great post and very interesting.

Have a nice day everyone.