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GodHead
24-09-2006, 08:25
What exactly is the point of Vow of Strength? It disables your attack skills for 10 seconds, and during that time your attacks deal a whopping 21% more damage (assuming you have 16 earth prayers...)? And this is an elite skill? Assuming you hit for maximum damage with every attack, that would be like 8 more damage per attack...

WTF?

What could the point of this skill be, and who would be dumb enough to use it in its current form?

critical vengeance
24-09-2006, 16:28
that true; hmm not really sure on that one. Seems pretty bad to me too.

nkuvu
24-09-2006, 18:50
How many attack skills do you have on your skill bar? And how many of them can you use in ten seconds? How much extra damage is that in comparison to the bonus to normal attacks?

I don't have all Dervish skills unlocked, of course (and have, in fact, been playing as Paragon for much of the preview). But I didn't have more than one or two attack skills on my skill bar. Had a number of spells and enchantments, though, and those aren't affected by this skill.

But just a random guess looking at the attack skills I know of (and not knowing the actual attack speed of a scythe) it seems comparable to the amount of damage. Most of the attack skills that I know of add no more than 17 to the damage. And with skill recharge, I doubt you could get more than one chance per skill within that ten seconds.

So if you have four attack skills, in ten seconds you could probably do about 68 extra damage. Spending, at minimum, 20 energy. With Vow of Strength (and guessing that you can get at least 5 attacks in ten seconds, and using the +8 damage noted above) you spend five energy, and add 40 points of damage.

Does it look like the Bestest Elite Evar? Nah. But from my wild guesses it doesn't look completely useless, either. Of course I may revise my take on it once we seel the final version, and some people do some tests to see how effective it really is.

GodHead
24-09-2006, 20:12
Actually I've been using Chilling Victory (+21 and +53 to all adjacent foes), Eremites Attack, (+10 per adjacent enemy, max +42), Mystic Sweep (+10 for each enchantment on you, max +40), and Pious Assault (+33, if it removes an Enchantment it recharges instantly).

So using the skills in the proper order, I can assure no less than +33 damage per attack, and use them for every attack for longer than 10 seconds. Of course it uses far more energy this way, but it's like 3 times more damage than you would get using the ELITE Vow of Strength.

Archegonia Mnium
24-09-2006, 21:44
How about an IAS stance and a spell from the elementalist's Conjure line? Don't think about skills by themselves... that's just not how you play GW.

GodHead
24-09-2006, 22:19
How about an IAS stance with my attack skills?

And 21% extra damage on 12 from an Enchant is 2 extra damage. WOW! And I don't even know if it effects the damage from an Enchant. Additionally VoS is an Earth Prayer, so you'd need to have that maxed, and Fire/Water/Air AND a weapon attribute just to use that little "combo"...

Hell even with Order of Pain, Strength of Honor, Fire Enchant and Judges Insight, it's still better just to use attack skills. Vow of Strength's only advantage is that it costs less energy.

The skill is crap. It should not be elite if it disables your attack skills.

Make me a build, or even a team build where the Dervish needs his energy so much that he's better off with VoS than Balth's Avatar or even just using Scythe skills.

Patccmoi
24-09-2006, 22:36
I'd tend to agree it's really bad too.

The amount of damage is small, very small. And you can't say it's +8 damage per hit... because it's +8 damage on 60AL. Hit a warrior, and IF YOU CRIT you'll get around +6-7 damage (if you use elemental weapon...). Rest of the time you'll get what, +3, +4? The +damage from attack skills ignores armor, while the base damage doesn't. This changes a LOT.

Scythes has the best base damage of any weapon in the game on crits, and even with them i don't see the point of this skill, so i can't really imagine using it with other weapons either. MAYBE a Hammer warrior... but then again, it's elite, and elite hammer skills are all far far better than that.

This seems like the strength a non-elite skill should have. To be elite, it should either add much more damage than that, or add another benefit (for example +5..17% damage and +5..17% crit). The skill idea isn't necessarily bad, but the stats on it are horrible. You would likely do more damage by using the Scythe elite as it recharges (the good one... not the 'used to be a normal skill and it was ok at best then' elite) on top of adding deep wound on targets below 50%. This elite is 5E every 8 sec for +42 damage with 16 Scythe (something you're likely to max... you're very unlikely to max earth), and can potentially deep wound. How can Vow of Strength actually compare to that?

I mean yes, you can use IAS and Conjures... but you can use them and use attack skills too. Even just the elite attack skill alone will make you deal more damage with a potentially DEVASTATING hit (crit on this on someone below 50%, and it's 122 damage on 60AL + Deep Wound, that's like 222 damage swing).

Archegonia Mnium
24-09-2006, 22:39
I agree that some skills really are useless, but I'm not convinced this is necessarily one.

cardonalj
24-09-2006, 22:44
Actually I've been using Chilling Victory (+21 and +53 to all adjacent foes), Eremites Attack, (+10 per adjacent enemy, max +42), Mystic Sweep (+10 for each enchantment on you, max +40), and Pious Assault (+33, if it removes an Enchantment it recharges instantly).

So using the skills in the proper order, I can assure no less than +33 damage per attack, and use them for every attack for longer than 10 seconds. Of course it uses far more energy this way, but it's like 3 times more damage than you would get using the ELITE Vow of Strength.


Mystic Sweep or Crippling Sweep

lavenbb
25-09-2006, 00:00
Mystic Sweep or Crippling Sweep

mystic sweep deals extra damage based on the number of enchants you have, crippling sweep has the same condition, but cripples your target based on the number of enchants you have.

arredondo
25-09-2006, 01:25
For a single target, the elite is unimpressive in its damage dealing. Scythes are AoE so the total potential of added damage to a group is probably what they had in mind when assigning it elite status. Also its cost, cast and recharge are great, meaning you can cheaply keep it up at all times.

I agree it's not the best but with IAS or a Conjure spell, the AoE spam damage may be noticable against a pack of monsters or something..

GodHead
25-09-2006, 01:43
AoE effect? It works on all your attack skills too. Compared to the Scythe attack skills, it is worthless.

NME
25-09-2006, 01:53
Well you could do alot of damage.

Max Scyth
+15%
-5
Armor Penetration +20%(Chance:20%)
Damage +20% (vs. Enemie Type)
Damage + 20%
Customized

use the Skill you have a gaurenteed +56% damage, and you could do +76% damage to a type of enemie

GodHead
25-09-2006, 02:28
Once again... same weapon, with attack skills is better than the skill. The skill just uses less energy.

Bozo69PD
25-09-2006, 03:06
its obviously mostly for stance tank farming. A D/W with disciplined stance and defensive stance can just sit their beating on groups of mobs for as long as it takes. You can run out of energy spamming those attack skills pretty fast and only kill 3-6 mobs depending on where your farming.

It's just a different method for farming, and it looks like a simple one for people who don't care for energy management and such.

lavenbb
25-09-2006, 04:02
Well it could work on an enchant-heavy build.. just keep spamming those enchantments and put this one up once awhile.. your character could be quite well rounded just by focusing on earth prayer

negromancer shizzle
01-10-2006, 07:45
Every skill has a purpose, we should just wait until it becomes more apparent when nightfall is released.

GodHead
01-10-2006, 22:19
I would disagree heartily with the above statement. There are plenty of duff skills that serve no reasonable purpose.

I'm sure anyone can come up with a situation where any single skill can be useful at least once, but the reasonable skills don't force you to implausible situations before the skill is worth a spot on your bar.

Shadowleaf
18-10-2006, 18:20
I don't think it looks good either, but here's some math on what I'd use it with:

Have a Monk maintain Strength of Honor on you and use Judge's Insight on you, Have a Paragon spam "Go for the Eyes!" to give you a lot of Criticals, Have a Dark Fury(for the Paragon) Necromancer *(no OoP, see note) and a Sweltering Heat Ranger.

"Go for the Eyes!" gives an additional 78% chance to critical hit, you already have a base ~40% chance to crit with 14-16 weapon mastery, so pretty much... you're gonna crit... I know the chances don't stack like 78+40=118%, but it's gonna be something above 90% I think.

Assuming 20% customized and 15% bonus and vs 60 AL...

With 16 Scythe Mastery and 15 Earth Prayers, You'll deal (1.2*1.15*2*41+11+17)*1.2 = 148.992 (rounded to 149) on a Critical Hit with Vow of Strength. Damage without VoS = 124, so VoS is adding 25 damage.

With 15 Scythe Mastery and 16 Earth Prayers, You'll deal (1.2*1.15*1.9318727*41+11+17)*1.21 = 145.569 (rounded to 146) on a Critical Hit with Vow of Strength. Damage without VoS = 120, so VoS is adding 26 damage.

Well, 2 Superior Runes is stupid... so here's with more viable attributes:

With 16 Scythe Mastery and 13 Earth Prayers, You'll deal (1.2*1.15*2*41+11+17)*1.18 = 146.5695 (rounded to 147) on a Critical Hit with Vow of Strength. Damage without VoS = 124, so VoS is adding 23 damage.

With 14 Scythe Mastery and 13 Earth Prayers, You'll deal (1.2*1.15*1.866066*41+11+17)*1.18 = 137.5668 (rounded to 138) on a Critical Hit with Vow of Strength. Damage without VoS = 116, so VoS is adding 22 damage.


So it seems you can achieve ungodly DPS with such a team build... Compared to spamming Mystic Sweep, you'll have a higher DPS because you can attack almost 4 times in the time it takes to recharge Mystic Sweep if you use IAS and any other high damage attacks would remove one or more of the enchantments that makes your base damage so high.

Also, don't forget that as a Dervish you can easily remove Vow of Strength and finish off an enemy with Wearying Strike + Chilling Victory. Sure, you'll suffer Weakness, but Chilling Victory will deal +19 damage and 57 Cold Damage, and the Monk buffs plus nearly guaranteed chance for a Critical will cancel out the Weakness and you'll definetly finish off a low HP target with this combo.

I think the good thing about Vow of Strength is the potential for sustained DPS, but only with such a team build as I have described.

I'm not saying this would be a great team, but as I see it, if this isn't any good, VoS is useless. I think I'll give it a shot though... If the Paragon is able to spam "Go for the Eyes!" enough, it might be good, I mean, with IAS you should be hitting almost 130 DPS if you crit almost every time. That's only from one Dervish, granted he takes several support characters... But another Paragon could be added and you'd only need one other Monk to support him, while the other support works for him too... And FYI, a BL Monk spamming all his heals as fast as he can wouldn't keep up with the DPS in this build.

Of course, this IS Melee Damage, so it's going to take another support character to snare enemies and/or speed up the Dervish(es) if you want to sustain the full DPS.

*I almost included Order of Pain, but it won't work with Judge's Insight (Holy Damage) so I checked which one will give more damage, and JI actually does when combined with VoS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry for the long post. What do you guys think? I am honestly not sure this build would be viable myself. I mean, I just calculated a way to buff a Dervish up to 120+ DPS (if you got a crit every single attack in IAS you'd sustain 127 DPS) and you could have two of them for 240-260 DPS fully sustained. I just think there's gotta be a catch, like maybe it would end up being too easy to shut down, too hard to execute, or the damage doesn't stack like I think it does (like maybe VoS multiplies damage before bonuses such as Strength of Honor)

Patccmoi
18-10-2006, 18:41
Give all the same buffs to a Dervish with Attack skills and trust me, he'll be far, far more threatening. And actually have points to put in Mysticism (because you have 4 right now, so your energy management would be quite bad).

Mystic Sweep + Reaper's Sweep + Twin Moon Strike for example would allow you to have much higher damage.

And more importantly, your damage with Vow of Strength is on 60AL. If you go against 80-100AL or the like, the +damage ignoring armor will allow you to hit for more.

Seriously, it seems like a really bad skill atm. Maybe if it wasn't elite it could be an option, but as elite it truly lacks something imo. The other 2 Vows are kinda weird too, but they do offer interesting possibilities so maybe in some builds they'll turn out to be quite powerful. But this one, no attack skill for 17-18% more damage... i just don't see why you'd want that.

Shadowleaf
18-10-2006, 19:11
Did you actually read my whole post? You can't do the same thing with Attack skills. All of the ones that have a bonus of more than 20 or so remove an enchantment besides Mystic Sweep and Chilling Victory. Your combo would take off all the buffs, though a nice spike, would not sustain DPS.

I mean, I know that the common wisdom is that spike > DPS, but that is because the DPS possible at the moment is low. I think this DPS is high enough in theory to consider a build that is not based on a spike.

And why would this need energy management? It just keeps VoS on itself until the opportunity arises to remove VoS and spike with Wearying Strike + Chilling Victory.

Here are the most important points I made...

- You can deal almost as much as Mystic Sweep every attack, almost 4 times in the time it takes Mystic Sweep to recharge if you use IAS. Mystic Sweep gives you a +40 bonus every 4 seconds, the VoS build gives you +20-25 damage every 1.155 seconds. From a DPS perspective, VoS is better when used with all these buffs. Again, all the other attacks that get a high bonus remove your buffs and thus cannot be sustained.

- You can remove Vow of Strength at any time to allow yourself a finish-off spike (Wearying Strike + Chilling Victory)

- 120+ fully sustained DPS vs 60 AL. This means something like 60 DPS vs 100 AL because every 40 armor you add approximately halves damage. Last time I checked, 60 DPS was pretty damn good... If you've already killed the backline, it doesn't matter how much armor the Warriors have anyway. Claiming that this is not going to take down Warriors is like saying that 10 Bone Fiends can't take down a Warrior.

What I really want to know is, how easy would this strategy be to counter and how viable would it be to actually make the Dervish get almost all Critical Hits?

BTW, You really have to read my posts, look at the math, stop thinking "+21% damage sucks, I am not reading this garbage! Nothing can change the fact that +21% damage sucks." That's what I thought too. I just did the math in an attempt to show without a doubt that this was a bad skill, yet I calculated insane DPS.

Patccmoi
18-10-2006, 19:29
Did you actually read my whole post? You can't do the same thing with Attack skills. All of the ones that have a bonus of more than 20 or so remove an enchantment besides Mystic Sweep and Chilling Victory. Your combo would take off all the buffs, thought a nice spike, would not sustain DPS.

I mean, I know that the common wisdom is that spike > DPS, but that is because the DPS possible at the moment is low. I think this DPS is high enough in theory to consider a build that is not based on a spike.

And why would this need energy management? It just keeps VoS on itself until the opportunity arises to remove VoS and spike with Wearying Strike + Chilling Victory.

Here are the most important points I made...

- You can deal almost as much as Mystic Sweep every attack, almost 4 times in the time it takes Mystic Sweep to recharge if you use IAS. Mystic Sweep gives you a +40 bonus every 4 seconds, the VoS build gives you +20-25 damage every 1.155 seconds. From a DPS perspective, VoS is better when used with all these buffs. Again, all the other attacks that get a high bonus remove your buffs and thus cannot be sustained.

- You can remove Vow of Strength at any time to allow yourself a finish-off spike (Wearying Strike + Chilling Victory)

- 120+ fully sustained DPS vs 60 AL. This means something like 60 DPS vs 100 AL because every 40 armor you add approximately halves damage. Last time I checked, 60 DPS was pretty damn good... If you've already killed the backline, it doesn't matter how much armor the Warriors have anyway. Claiming that this is not going to take down Warriors is like saying that 10 Bone Fiends can't take down a Warrior.

What I really want to know is, how easy would this strategy be to counter and how viable would it be to actually make the Dervish get almost all Critical Hits?

You assume that you crit every hit which is just not close to reality. Go for the Eyes! has realistically maybe 6-8s recharge (people dodge spears, etc.) if you don't use your adrenal for anything else, and it makes ONE attack crit. I mean, you can just as well have one of your attacks dealing something like 30 damage.

And yes, some attacks make you lose enchants, but not all. Reaper's Sweep is +42 damage and potentially Deep Wound and it doesn't remove an enchant. You can also use attack skills like Protector's Strike for warrior which is just an extra attack altogether for 5E/3s recharge. That extra attack = +100% damage, not +20%, so a single Protector's Strike replaces the extra damage of 5 hits from Vow of Strength...

I just don't see the point honestly. You need tons of enchants stacked on your target for Vow to do something, and Nightfall brings tons of massive enchant removal/counters. Might as well use these enchants to power Mystic Sweep and pick a more useful elite. Reaper's Sweep if what you want is damage, Wounding Strike if you want Deep Wound pressure, Sandy Grip for mass blind, etc.

Shadowleaf
18-10-2006, 19:55
Actually, if you noticed I included Sweltering Heat and a Dark Fury Necro, you'd see that "Go for the Eyes!" would charge every attack that hit. Don't bother mentioning an adrenaline gain cap; Dark Fury is a separate gain, which is doubled by Sweltering Heat itself, so you'll gain a total of 4 each attack. The Paragon should use IAS too.

The idea of spamming Protector's Strike seems good though, didn't think of that. But your Paragon definetly can't have "Go for the Eyes!" up for attacks that are only separated by 1/2 second. Paragon in IAS would attack every .99 seconds, so it just wouldn't be possible to guarantee that Protector's Strike was a Critical... And without the Criticals, your normal attacks aren't so awesome.

You only need 2 enchantments stacked on the Dervish. Should be easy to cover them. But yeah, the proper enchant-hate build with Nightfall skills would definetly wreck this.

Oh, just remembered Vocal Minority. :undecided:

lavenbb
18-10-2006, 23:13
Vocal Minority is just one hex, remove it :D

IMO Vow of Strength and scythes don't mix very well. Fortunately it's in earth prayers and not scythe mastery, meaning you can use any weapon you like without losing out on attribute points.

I think this skill is an elite because if it is mixed with Primal Rage, Spirit's Strength, or Locust Fury it will become overpowered.

critical vengeance
19-10-2006, 03:08
Oh, just remembered Vocal Minority. :undecided:


little bit off topic, but yeah, as many paragons in nightfall should see a lot of new necromancers using anti shouts.

I sortof feel like the dervish and the paragon... well more dervish is going to suffer a lot in the harder missions. Well of profance plus a couple other enchant hate mobs will mess a lot of front up fighters...

lavenbb
19-10-2006, 08:52
actually ppl keep saying well of profane will screw up dervishes, but doesn't it only stop targetted enchants?

I know for a fact that shadow shroud is nerfed so it doesn't work on enchants that doesn't need targetting. I think WoP is the same, just re-enchant yourself whenever they're stripped.

jhffmn
19-10-2006, 09:12
Why not use a 5 energy enchant with a quick cast time and 15 myst + 13 scythe to spam attack skills? Thats sustainable. RoF comes to mind.

Paul Pluto
19-10-2006, 13:22
Anti Blackout? knock this out before you get hit with blackout and attempt a slightly powered up bit of revenge?

Still seems a little underpowered for an elite but as the skills havent been set in stone still there's hope!

Bravo
19-10-2006, 15:36
I think it is more so you don't combine it with flourish.

Then again the ~+20% damage would still likely only apply to the normal attack element, as customisation doesn't add to the +xx proportion of skills at the moment.

Patccmoi
19-10-2006, 17:44
I think it is more so you don't combine it with flourish.

Then again the ~+20% damage would still likely only apply to the normal attack element, as customisation doesn't add to the +xx proportion of skills at the moment.

I don't think Flourish would matter. It's not 'your attack skills are disabled', it's just 'you can't use attack skills'. Just like you can't cast spells with Vow of Silence, but i doubt that it 'disables' your spells.

Bravo
19-10-2006, 20:21
hmm good point. I have no idea then...

trafalgar-zero
19-10-2006, 21:56
Not everyone is going to be a skill spamming monkey. Some people might go for the enchant nuking approach and rely on their enchants/conditions to kill along with normal attacks. So throwing in ~20% more damage on normal hits wouldn't hurt. Plus being able to stay up constantly and a very low mana cost, just makes it a very nice boast in damage for little cost. That is if you don't have another elite in mind. Which I am sensing most everyone here does.