Paragon - Solo Farming?

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

No threads yet to tackle this topic. I think most people have considered the Dervish to have a great potetial in solo farming. However, I think that the Paragon could also prove to be a very viable choice.

Pros:
-Many good protection skills that are not enchantments or spells.
-High Armor rating

Cons:
-Very little AoE attacks
-No obvious farming skills

My first thoughts to a farming build would be to use the burning-line of skills. "They're on Fire!" accompanied with Blazing Finale, Mending Refrain and Finale of Restoration along with some quick spammable shouts such as "Watch Yourself!" could allow for a high enough health gain and low health loss due to the damage reduction while maintaining a constant burning effect for 10 dps to all surrounding enemies.

This would allow you to keep up 116 armor (assuming they cannot get 80+ armor), ~50% damage reduction, healing ~80 hp every few seconds, ~+4 health regen and burning to all adjacent foes with no fear of enchant stripping.

*Probably a stupid question, but I've never though of it before: does adrenaline charge when getting hit or only when attacking?

That's all I have at the moment, but hopefully collectively we can come up with something more finalized.

[MrShoes]

There is actaully a topic regarding adrenaline gain when you get hit somewhere on the warrior forum, if I recall correctly you get only a fraction of 1 strike of adren when you get hit :huh:

[Ostriig]

There is actaully a topic regarding adrenaline gain when you get hit somewhere on the warrior forum, if I recall correctly you get only a fraction of 1 strike of adren when you get hit :huh:

Yeah, this is correct. You do gain adrenaline for being hit, only at a much slower rate, depending on how much damage has been dealt to you. Sadly, GWO's own wiki doesn't seem to include info on that. The other wiki does, though.

[dWb]

I think i read somewhere that being hurt for 25% of your max health will generate 1 strike of adrenaline .... don't quote me on this though, it's late and my mind is bleary.

-dWb

[Ostriig]

I think i read somewhere that being hurt for 25% of your max health will generate 1 strike of adrenaline .... don't quote me on this though, it's late and my mind is bleary.

-dWb

Yup, apparently an "adrenaline strike" is roughly comprised of 25 "adrenaline points". Striking your opponent will get you a full 25 points, meaning one strike. While getting struck, it seems you earn 1 adrenaline point for each 1% of your maximum health you lose due to that hit. So being smacked for 25% of your maximum health would yield you a full adrenaline strike.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Well in that case, I'm sure you'd be getting smacked around enough while farming that you could probably still maintain a pretty regular adrenaline gain along with your own attacks. I'd probably bring For Great Justice! along with the build though just to make sure you can readily spam it.

Any thoughts on actual farming builds?

[Ostriig]

Well in that case, I'm sure you'd be getting smacked around enough while farming that you could probably still maintain a pretty regular adrenaline gain along with your own attacks. I'd probably bring For Great Justice! along with the build though just to make sure you can readily spam it.

Any thoughts on actual farming builds?

Well, if we're talking about a P/W, 'For Great Justice!" is, of course, a good option for adrenal gain. 'To The Limit!" would be another, one which I like more, to be honest, but it wouldn't be very useful unless you invested in Tactics. I'm supposing that would be unwanted, seeing as it would lengthen the duration of "Watch Yourself!"?

Now, my reflex would be to go Axe and equip Cyclone. There go your adrenaline problems. That would mean spreading attribute points between Leadership, Motivation, Axe Mastery.

I'd also consider replacing "They're on fire!" with another shout, a shorter lasting one. How about "Shields up!"? At 0 Tactics, it lasts 8 seconds, disadvantage being the 10 Energy cost.

So... I don't know, have to admit, I haven't looked all that much into possible builds for the Paragon... Taking from what you listed earlier:

(Tactics - 0)

Cyclone Axe
"For Great Justice!"
"Shields Up!"/"They're On Fire!"
"Watch Yourself!"
Blazing Finale
Mending Refrain
Finale Of Restoration

Now, one slot left. I'd consider Energizing Chorus, or maybe something to deal with conditions? Last thing you want on you is Blind. These come to mind:
Purifying Finale
Song of Purification (Command line, so maybe not)
Cautery Signet (it may work, if coupled with "They're On Fire!")

Meh, can't really say I've put a lot of thought in the whole thing... I suppose it may work against areas with mobs that come up close in melee. Dissect away.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

I was thinking of only using burning as my damage output. However, I do like the idea of cyclone axe for adrenaline gain.

Every 4 seconds, you could cyclone axe to gain around 4 adrenaline, which means that you could always maintain "Watch Yourself!" and replenish it every 4 seconds. It'd be a lot nicer if I could get to every 3 seconds so that it coincides with the burning duration of Blazing Finale and thus burning is always going to be on the targets and you'll always receive ~50% less damage.

Although! Here comes another problem. If a shout is reapplied without expending it's duration does a finale still trigger? For example, if I could cast Watch Yourself! every 4 seconds while it lasts for 5. Would it ever be considered to end and thus trigger any echo finale skill? My gut feeling is that it wouldn't.

Therefore, Cyclone Axe would work prefectly along with Watch Yourself! to reapply the shout every 5 seconds. Therefore, you'll gain ~80 hp, apply burning for 3 seconds, and gain +20 armor every 5 seconds. I guess now the question is: is this enough to survive a beating from a mob?

Note: You will have 2 seconds where you are not receiving ~50% damge reduction.

Alternative to Cyclone Axe:
In the case that the shout is considered to end when reapplied. Auspicious Parry would be a great choice. However, I'd like to try to test this before making any assumptions.

[Edit]:
Does a scythe give triple adrenaline gain if hitting three targets?

[Ostriig]

Every 4 seconds, you could cyclone axe to gain around 4 adrenaline, which means that you could always maintain "Watch Yourself!" and replenish it every 4 seconds. It'd be a lot nicer if I could get to every 3 seconds so that it coincides with the burning duration of Blazing Finale and thus burning is always going to be on the targets and you'll always receive ~50% less damage.
Well, with "For Great Justice!" your adrenaline income should be high enough. Furthermore, I'm guessing you'll also be whacking at an enemy in between Cyclones, so you should have enough adrenaline to drop in "Watch Yourself!" pretty much whenever you want.



Although! Here comes another problem. If a shout is reapplied without expending it's duration does a finale still trigger? For example, if I could cast Watch Yourself! every 4 seconds while it lasts for 5. Would it ever be considered to end and thus trigger any echo finale skill? My gut feeling is that it wouldn't.
Same, don't think it would count as the Shout actually ending. It would be good if you had 2 short duration and short recharge shouts. That's why I had suggested taking "Shields Up!" as the second shout, but I realize now that it wouldn't serve to its purpose, since it has too high a recharge. Unfortunately, a quick look through the W skills revealed none to fit the requirement, and the only thing that might just work would be "Go for the Eyes!" from the Paragon. Basically, two instant recharge shouts, one with a minimal duration of 5, the other with 10. Perhaps it would be possible to time them in such a way as to benefit from it?

But as you said, seeing whether reapplying a shout counts as it ending is an important point, and I don't suppose there's anyway to tell unless testing in Nightfall.



Does a scythe give triple adrenaline gain if hitting three targets?
No idea, sorry.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Well, we're extrapolating off of outdated skills here, but let's see if we still get a rough sketch together.

I like the idea of Go for the Eyes. So here's the basic build so far:

The Pyromaniaragon

Leadership 16
Motivation 13

Skills:
Cyclone Axe
"Go For the Eyes!"
"Watch Yourself!"
"They're on Fire!"
"For Great Justice!"
Blazing Finale
Finale of Restoration
Mending Refrain

Strategy:
1. Cast Blazing Finale, Finale of Restoration and Mending Refrain
2. Charge group
3. Use "For Great Justice!" and "They're on Fire!"
4. Attack with Cyclone Axe
5. Use "Go For the Eyes!" and "Watch Yourself!"
6. Attack for 2.5 seconds
7. Use "Go For the Eyes!" again
8. Attack for 2.5 seconds
9. Repeat Steps 4-8
*. Recast Blazing Finale, Finale of Restoration, Mending Refrain, "They're on Fire!" and "For Great Justice!" whenever needed

Synopsis of Strategy:
*NOTE* All calculations based off of rounding numbers and outdated skills
1. Gain +4 Health Regeneration. Whenever a shout ends, you'll cause burning for 4 seconds to all adjacent foes and heal 78 hp.
2. Aggro a group and get swarmed.
3. Gain Double Adrenaline for 20 seconds and 60% damage reduction from burning foes
4. Hit many foes to fill adrenaline.
5. Use the shouts to setup step 6, gain +20 armor.
6. Upon first attack, end "Go for the Eyes!" to trigger burning.
7. Use "Go For the Eyes!" again to setup step 8.
8. Upon first attack, end "Go for the Eyes!" to trigger burning. A few seconds later "Watch Yourself!" will end to trigger burning.
9. The burning from "Watch Yourself!" will ensure your foes are burning in the space between repeating the cycle.
*. This can be accomplished in steps 6 and 8 during the attack phases.

Summary:
You will maintain +4 health regeneration, reapply burning every 3 seconds, heal 78 hp every 3 seconds, maintain +116 armor, and maintain 60% damage reduction.

Number Crunching:
Original Formula:
(Damage Enhancement) x (Base Damage) x 2^{ [ ( [75/15]*Attribute - EAL ) + GSM ] / 40} + (Bonus Damage)

Let's assume base-damage is 30 and the attribute is 12:
30 x 2^[(60-116)/40] = 11 damage

Oh wait! I forgot the 60% damage reduction:
11 x (1-.60) = 4.4 damage

More Number Crunching:
If you are being attacked by 6 foes dealing the prenominately mentioned amount of damage and each monster is capable of attacking twice within a 3 second span, you will take 52 damage in 3 seconds. Luckily you'll also heal 78 hp every 3 seconds. That's a gain of 26 hp. However, we also have to account for Mending Refrain and the +4 health regeneration. That will yield an additional 24 hp every 3 seconds.

Therefore based on rough calculations, you should be able to survive a mob of 6 prenominately mentioned foes.

Also, you will have a damage output of at least 14 hp per second to each foe due to burning.

Final Summary:
Therefore, it might not be the quickest way to farm, but it looks like it might be an effective way to farm. Furthermore, this build does not revolve around or even use enchantments or spells at all.

[EDIT]: Also, just realized that this build doesn't use an elite.

[MrShoes]

actaully, burning is -7 degen, so that's 14 dps :P

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Oh dang, lol, that changes it to be a little more effective.

[EDIT]:
I just realized the novelty of the Pyromaniaragon.

You will be sitting in the middle of a huge group of minotaurs while they burn away and flail helplessly at you while you. . .sing.

[Ostriig]

Well, we're extrapolating off of outdated skills here, but let's see if we still get a rough sketch together.

I like the idea of Go for the Eyes. So here's the basic build so far:

The Pyromaniaragon
[...]


First off, that's more than a rough sketch in terms of size and detail. To continue, congratulations, seems to me you have a build! Now all we need are Paragons! :tongue:

One thing that has caught my attention, though, would be the actual energy management for a solo paragon. Would it suffice? I'm not so certain I've got the energy management right (and it's 02.30 am), so I'd appreciate you and/or any others looking over the following:



1. Cast Blazing Finale, Finale of Restoration and Mending Refrain
2. Charge group
3. Use "For Great Justice!" and "They're on Fire!"
4. Attack with Cyclone Axe
5. Use "Go For the Eyes!" and "Watch Yourself!"
6. Attack for 2.5 seconds
7. Use "Go For the Eyes!" again
8. Attack for 2.5 seconds
9. Repeat Steps 4-8
*. Recast Blazing Finale, Finale of Restoration, Mending Refrain, "They're on Fire!" and "For Great Justice!" whenever needed


We use energy at steps:
1. -15e
3. -15e
4. -5e
9(4). -5e
* Various other recasts in-between.



Leadership (Primary Attribute): You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 3 ranks).
With 16 in Leadership that would mean that your maximum energy inflow from the effect of a single Shout is 5?

Initial energy (assumption based off the armour in the NPE): 30.

1. BF, FoR, MR -15e;
Left: 15e;
2. FGJ -10e + 5e; Left: 10e; ToF -5 +5;
Left: 10e;
4. CA -5e;
Left: 5e;

It's definetly enough to get started, but I don't know how well we'd do with the recasts.

I think one way to adress this would be to use a Zealous Axe and benefit your energy pool from Cyclone Axe, as well as your adrenaline.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Actually, you would only gain 1 energy from Leadership. You're chants are only affecting one person. You.

I'm also pretty certain that energy costs for the skills have changed. However, the initial energy casts can be done beforehand, wait a few seconds to regenerate a little more, then go in. A zealous axe haft would further ensure that you shouldn't have too many problems.

As of now, I don't have too many concerns with energy as the build relies mostly on adrenaline based skills once you're in combat.

[EDIT]: Also, I'd like to mention that Leadership was 1e/2 ranks as of the NFPE.

[Ostriig]

Actually, you would only gain 1 energy from Leadership. You're chants are only affecting one person.
Right. Got mixed up last night, my mistake.

Also, I'd like to mention that Leadership was 1e/2 ranks as of the NFPE.
I had just quoted the one from GWO Wiki. Didn't know it was out of date, and didn't remember the stats from the NPE.



I'm also pretty certain that energy costs for the skills have changed. However, the initial energy casts can be done beforehand, wait a few seconds to regenerate a little more, then go in. A zealous axe haft would further ensure that you shouldn't have too many problems.

As of now, I don't have too many concerns with energy as the build relies mostly on adrenaline based skills once you're in combat.
Come to think of it, I'm quite confident that there should be some energy enhancing armours for the Paragon as well. So, yeah, it should be fine.

Well, guess this wraps it up. All that remains is testing in one month's time.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Or! We could try to ponder some more builds.

[Ostriig]

Or! We could try to ponder some more builds.

As long as it doesn't keep me up at 2 am again. :tongue:

[Quiet Lurker]

This is my first post about Paragons, but there was a post in the Ranger about using the burning skills in conjunction with Barrage and it got me thinking of Paragon solo builds.

With the various burning skills I can see a 55 Burning Paragon being a solo farming machine.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Burning Refrain Cyclone Axe on a 55 Paragon with "They're all on Fire!"

[critical vengeance]

could a 55 paragon actually 55? I mean 2 pips of regen don't get you that far with spells and enchants.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

could a 55 paragon actually 55? I mean 2 pips of regen don't get you that far with spells and enchants.NO I dont really think so. They aren't casters. Personally I really like the Pyromaniaragon for a farmer. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything else.

[negromancer shizzle]

hmmm, I dont see a paragon working as a farmer...Though when all of the skills are released we will see.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

hmmm, I dont see a paragon working as a farmer...Though when all of the skills are released we will see.Well I've already posted a build that is theoretically promising.

[Avoc]

Does "Anthem of Flame" set every foe you strike with a scythe attack, on fire?

[Ivan Drago]

Yes. Scythe Attacks like Wild Blow do max damage to all targets and break all their stances as well.

Distracting Blow hits 3x, high chance to get at least one using a skill, resulting in the interrupt of all around... wicked.


Barrage on the other hand counts as separate attacks - only 1 of x arrows is set aflame.

[Auntie I]

Does "Anthem of Flame" set every foe you strike with a scythe attack, on fire?
Anthem of Flame works when you hit an enemy with an Attack SKILL not a regular attack. Once you hit an enemy with an attack skill, Anthem of Flame ends on you.

To me the value of Anthem of Flame is the ability to have various party members use their attack skills in a staggered fashion so that you can keep an enemy burning.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Anthem of Flame works when you hit an enemy with an Attack SKILL not a regular attack. Once you hit an enemy with an attack skill, Anthem of Flame ends on you.

To me the value of Anthem of Flame is the ability to have various party members use their attack skills in a staggered fashion so that you can keep an enemy burning.Makes me think of a ranger spike fragility group.

Sort of like a polyphonic song. Paragon casts low leadership Anthem of Flame. The entire group starts counting.
1. Ranger 1 fires first attack skill and follows up with the rest
2. Ranger 2 begins his attack chain
3. Ranger 3 begins
4 Ranger 4 begins.
That's going to trigger fragility 8 times. If paired with apply poison, that's 12 times. Just might help fit in a little more damage.

[Camaris Spectre]

Burning Refrain Cyclone Axe on a 55 Paragon with "They're all on Fire!"

The lorasu bladehand sees Artemis' 55 P/W zone in and charge him. *Yawn* The lorasu nonchalantly casts deadly riposte as Artemis hits cycloneaxe. *-60* Artemis dies. :laugh:

Those triple class builds only come out at 2am.

On more serious note: congrats on the build. The paragon looks to be the ..err.. paragon of non-farming classes but you have found a way. I'd love to figure out a solo spear build..

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

The lorasu bladehand sees Artemis' 55 P/W zone in and charge him. *Yawn* The lorasu nonchalantly casts deadly riposte as Artemis hits cycloneaxe. *-60* Artemis dies. :laugh:

Those triple class builds only come out at 2am.

On more serious note: congrats on the build. The paragon looks to be the ..err.. paragon of non-farming classes but you have found a way. I'd love to figure out a solo spear build..Well I'll admit the 55 statement wasn't thought out at all and really I don't see it working. . .ever. I'm pretty certain that my original farmer though could still work.

[Fownkaymownkay]

Why don't you use the Pyromaniagon with a scythe?

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Why don't you use the Pyromaniagon with a scythe?You could, which would allow you to take out Cyclone Axe. However, you would be losing 16 armor with your shield. Possibly a few damage reduction with that also. I'd rather have the armor in this case.

[Fownkaymownkay]

You could, which would allow you to take out Cyclone Axe. However, you would be losing 16 armor with your shield. Possibly a few damage reduction with that also. I'd rather have the armor in this case.
Oooh, damn. +7 shelter mod would help a bit, right? And the -2/+45 is pretty sweet, maybe you could find a -2 scythe like the -2 longbow you get from the Blankets for the Settlers quest.

Ah, time in NF will tell.

[Shadow Tiger Axe]

Also Scythes only hit up to 3 foes right?

[Fownkaymownkay]

Right. But still, 3 foes every hit (0e), or all foes every cyclone axe (5e)?

[Traynor Dragonblade]

Would a Riposte-Type Farm build work with a Paragon?

You could still make use of Blazing Finale and have it triggered by FGJ and WY at least...beyond that I haven't really looked at how Riposte/D. Riposte would fit in and what skills (other than Cyclone) they would replace.

One con would be of course that I'm not sure how adrenaline gain would be with the ripostes/damg taken rather than Cyclone/damg taken

Another of course is that Ripostes are effective only against melee attackers.

I guess one pro is adding the bleeding on a foe every 6 seconds or so, since I believe Bleeding+Burning = max degen??

Personally I really like the idea of a burning axe tank such as the one that Artemis suggested. On paper it looks to be a very promising concept in reg. play and if you wish to farm.

Just a thought, haven't really looked into it in more depth...kick it around a bit if you will...


Edit: Another con on the riposte-idea might be the need to cover 4 attribute lines...

[Fownkaymownkay]

Or just hold a sword with no atts in it.

Tactics+Leadership+Command. No need for Motivation. Problem solved. :grin:

[Traynor Dragonblade]

Or just hold a sword with no atts in it.

Tactics+Leadership+Command. No need for Motivation. Problem solved. :grin:



Very true regarding the sword...and you could still swing it and hit for adrenaline even if you do 2 damg.:afro:


Another thing to think about...if Ripostes need tactics, it would increase WY's duration and not make it AS effective as a energy source & refrain/echo renewer. ( I would think anyway...)

More armor for more time, so it does have it's advantages I guess. Though if you used Mending Ref. and Finale of Resto I would put points in Motivation rather than Command.

If you're at 0 or very low swords att., I would think GftE is more of a renewer and energy source than damage buffer...