Paragons and secondary class choices [Archive]

NeferJackal

28-09-2006, 12:09

While the hot thing is warrior for all the utility, shouts and like it offers to Paragon. Plus a shield if you invest into tactics, negating the need for points in Motivation or Command, what does other classes have to offer?

I think the Paragon is an intriguing class, but is a bit restricted by needing points into Leadership, Spear Mastery for their spear and Command or Motivation to wield their shield. Though need for a shield can be handled by going warrior for Tactics and using tactics based shields.

While some have said that you could make an entirely supportive Paragon without having a spear and freeing those points for a secondary attribute, I do not believe that is entirely optimal. Adrenaline is a resource the Paragon have and should draw on for full efficiency, instead of just relying on energy and the recovery of it through high leadership.

For example look at
Song of Purification 5a 2c
Elite Chant. For 20 seconds, the next 1...3 skills used by each ally within earshot remove 1 Condition from that ally.

A supportive paragon without a spear, would not be able to keep running this highly useful chant to keep his party nearly imune to conditions. If a Paragon can handle partywide condition removal, then it is much less strain on the monk, whom then can focus on just healing or protecting.

In my oppinion song of purification is miles better than the other Paragon elite designed to remove conditions, Cautery Signet. Plus it doesnt hurt you like Cautery Signet does. With fast adrenaline gain, you can keep song of purification going pretty much constantly and even gain reliably amounts energy from it. Especially so in Condition heavy zones such as Echowald Forest, which will mean constant early expiration of the song, as players use skills to proc all the removal effects available. So tell me, how could a monk even come close to this grade of condition protection? Truly an unique niche for the Paragon

So my point is that you should consider all the facets of the class and how they play together, before entirely dismissing an available resource. Which would be close to gimping yourself if you dont tap the full potential of your class.

Anyways, onto secondary class choices:

Paragons like to play with fire and burn things. So how about coupling that with a mesmer secondary, for Fragility in particular? A foe hexed with fragility takes damage when recieving conditions and when they end. And burning have a very short duration of usually 1-3 seconds. Unfortunately fragility only affects one foe, so there is little use for aoe burning skills in a fragility build, as you would want to direct burning upon a single, tough target of your choice.

And Paragons have just the skill for that even isnt elite.
Blazing Spar 7a
Spear Attack. If this attack hits, it deals +5...25 damage and sets target foe on fire for 1...3 second(s).

Couple blazing spear with natural temper or focused anger to build up adrenaline fast for repeately burning someone to a crisp

windcaller

28-09-2006, 12:55

you can hit without points in Spears. you don't do much damage but you still gain adrenaline. for more energy, as a support Paragon, take a Staff with +5 staff head and +30hp wrapping. this way you can spam shot, chants and echoes continously. TBH during the event i never put points in spear mastery. usually went with warr hero in PvE and in PvP i always ended up with a dervish or other damage dealers.

keydet

28-09-2006, 19:22

The chance you have of hitting with a particular weapon is proportional to your attribute level in the weapon attribute. With a zero, you have the lowest probability of a hit. There are other means of gaining adrenaline though.

Every time you get hit, you gain a fraction of an adrenaline point, so avoiding stances with block/evade bonuses will help recharge you. (Not something I would recommend however.)

There is also a warrior skill, linked to tactics I believe, which gives you adrenaline for each enemy nearby.

Another method would be to go P/R and use Ferocious Strike as your elite. (There also appears to be a Nightfall ranger elite linked to expertise, Sweltering Heat, which doubles the gain on adrenaline for non-spirit creatures.)

More notably though, most of the support type skills for the Paragon had energy costs, not adrenaline costs. So, adrenaline management might be a non-issue for a support paragon build.

------------------------
Edit: Shouldn't type without my glasses on, I can't see my typos.

Auntie I

28-09-2006, 19:26

The chance you have of hitting with a particular weapon is proportional to you attribute level in the weapon attribute. With a zero, you have the lowest probability of a hit. There are other means of gaining adrenaline though.
<snip>
I'm sorry but this is not the way I understand weapons to work. As I understand it, your attibute rank doesn't affect your "chance" to hit but the damage done when you do hit.

TeeBeeNZ

28-09-2006, 19:32

I found Paragons had no real good choices for secondary but they made an awesome warrior secondary.

NeferJackal

28-09-2006, 19:47

I am suprised you cant see how well Warrior secondary meshes with a paragon. Leadership is a much more desirable primary than Strenght. Plus you get 30 energy like casters. Just read the whole discussion about Watch Yourself and how its good for paragons.

Phoebus

28-09-2006, 19:47

The chance you have of hitting with a particular weapon is proportional to your attribute level in the weapon attribute. With a zero, you have the lowest probability of a hit. There are other means of gaining adrenaline though.
What are you talking about?
That's not how the game works at all, all attacks hit 100% of the time unless a skill effect lowers your chance to hit (Blind, Evade, Block, etc.)

What weapon mastery DOES is lower the effective armor of the target by 5AL per point.
If you have 6 Sword Mastery, your sword attacks lower the target's effective armor by 30.
If you have 12 Sword Mastery, your sword attacks lower the target's effective armor by 60. (Thus you deal normal damage to targets with 60AL.)

But there's diminishing return if your weapon mastery is above what you should have at your character level. The extra levels of weapon mastery will only give 2AL of armor reduction instead of the normal 5AL.

Every time you get hit, you gain a fraction of an adrenaline point, so avoiding stances with block/evade bonuses will help recharge you. (Not something I would recommend however.)
More precisely, you get 4% of an adrenaline point for every 1% (of your max hp) damage you take.

zweistein

28-09-2006, 19:57

forget about high tactics, as P/W you ideally whant as low tactics as possible to cut down duration of Watch Yourself shout (becuase of various mechanics of pragagon class).

P/W is the way to go currently.

as pragon you dont wanna to go to meele, you want to have long range weapons to be able to position yourself inside group while still havign enemies in reach to gather adrenaline. (forget swords/axes).

There are practically only 2 skills paragon is interested in /W secodnary: For Great Justice and Watch Yourself. neither requires investment and both have huge impact.

Artemis Shadowhawk

28-09-2006, 20:23

Zingeri

28-09-2006, 20:59

P/W is not the best build there is. Secondaries are all specific.

I love how everyone is taking two skills given in NFPE and just saying that they are the end-all skills for a P/W. "Watch Yourself!" isnt any better for renewing echoes and energy than "Go For the Eyes!" which is a paragon skill. "For Great Justice!" isn't any better than Balthazar's Aura or any other adrenaline gain skill. The paragon has many of these.

Saying that "Watch Yourself!" is easily emulated via paragon skills, I think that any other secondary can just as well help the paragon.Wrong. "Watch Yourself!" also has a 5 second duration, which helps maintain Echos (and is critical for effect-on-end Echoes). "Go for the Eyes!" has double the duration on non-attatckers. Also, Balthazar's Spirit requires a maintained Enchantment...and that's not a smart idea for a profession with 2 Energy regen.

Not going P/W is an insult, really.

(The only exception is P/N, where Cautery Signet can be combined with Plague Sending.)

Artemis Shadowhawk

28-09-2006, 21:09

LOL, then use "Go For the Eyes!" and attack...then it trumps "Watch Yourself!" in terms of frequency and therefore energy and echoes.

I think that by stating that P/W is the best is insulting to the versatility of the paragon, and also insulting to the person's own creativity.

NeferJackal

28-09-2006, 21:16

Try look at Finale of Restoration
Echo. For 10...30 seconds, whenever a Chant or Shout ends on target ally, that ally is healed for 15...63 Health.

Because a 0 tactics Watch Yourself ends after 5 seconds, you can proc the Finale more often and give health to your ally very frequently. With Go for the Eyes that ends every 10 seconds, you are practically only giving half as much health to your ally.

Also with an adrenaline shout with super short duration, you have greater leeway to keep expensive echos on you constantly, like

Aggressive Refrain
Echo. For 20 seconds, you attack 25% faster. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on you.

Zingeri

28-09-2006, 21:17

LOL, then use "Go For the Eyes!" and attack...then it trumps "Watch Yourself!" in terms of frequency and therefore energy and echoes.So a caster should waste 2 seconds just to use his wand for the slightly more efficient ability of a different secondary profession? :rolleyes:

Artemis Shadowhawk

29-09-2006, 16:19

So a caster should waste 2 seconds just to use his wand for the slightly more efficient ability of a different secondary profession? :rolleyes:I don't really know what that means, but "Go for the Eyes!: ends when anyone attacks. Therefore, it can actually be a short duration than "Watch Yourself!" and therefore it can become more spammable. If we're talking about Finales and Echoes, "Go for the Eyes!" is a good substitute for "Watch Yourself!" that doesn't require a secondary profession. That's the only point I'm trying to make here.

So far, the attention has been on a P/W for "Watch Yourself!" and "For Great Justice!" which are just two skills from the NFPE that worked well. However, I still feel like very few have actually tried to consider other builds that can fill a more specific niche that the NFPE P/W.

P/Mo is looking like it holds a lot of promise currently as I tinker around with some builds.

NeferJackal

29-09-2006, 16:24

I would be interested in hearing what you see as useful from a monk secondary.

We already have a hard res, have protection, hex removal, condition removal and healing abilities.

After thinking over it, I will say you are right about Go for the Eyes as being an better replacement for Watch Yourself, since it does end on next attack which I had missed. And thusly it can provide the exact same benefits as Watch Yourself, but with the potential to end even faster. Instead of having to last a specified duration.

The other popular warrior skill, For Great Justice can be replaced by Natural Temper or the Focused Anger elite, ultimately making warriors a reduntant choice for Paragons.

zweistein

29-09-2006, 16:32

spamability of GftE? heh.

GftE gives small (small as in unnoticeable) attack boost for spikes, requires casters (majority of party) to swing wand to trigger it if they want benefit of echoes.

WYs gives very noticeable armor boost that everyone can enjoy. requires NO attrobutes points to make it usefull.

spamability is NOT issue of WYs - both skill require same adrenaline to charge so they are ideally equally spamable, but WYs has great plus of having guaranteed duration, with GftE you are no guarantte that it ended on relevant party members so your next GftE can just prolong itles and deny its ending bonus.

---

Short: Watch Yourself wins because it has efect that helps eveyone, and help you as protection/heal paragon and guratanteed duration that ensures that you can spam it corectly.

GftE has nothing of this. Its uncertain duration hurts spamability, and its efect helps on minority of group.

NeferJackal

29-09-2006, 16:35

You missed the point about having a spammable short duration Shout or Chant, as it is used to proc the effects on a Finale Echo. Which gives it's effect EACH time a shout or chant ends on the ally effected by the Echo. The more times you can cause a Shout or Chant to end, the greater is the effect on someone carrying a Finale.

Finales are Echos like Refrains, with both only affecting one target. The important thing is to clearly understand the difference between them.

Finales procs their effect EACH time the affected target has a shout or chant expire on them. But the Finale itself is not automatically renewed, meaning that Finales usually will be restricted to the Frontline fighters whom needs it the most, like Warriors on tanking duty.

Refrains on the other hand, can easilly be cast on the whole Party, and maintained with a partywide shout or a chant.

So with Finales, you will want rapidly expiring shouts and chants to proc their effects as many times as possible. Whereas with Refrains, the duration of your Shouts and Chants does not matter at all. You just have to be able to recast them in time, so the recharge time of your shouts and chants is more important when dealing with Refrains.

zweistein

29-09-2006, 16:48

You missed the point about having a spammable short duration Shout or Chant, as it is used to proc the effects on a Finale Echo. Which gives it's effect EACH time a shout or chant ends on the ally effected by the Echo. The more times you can cause a Shout or Chant to end, the greater is the effect on someone carrying a Finale.

no. i really understand the point, you are ignoring my point why go for the eyes is bad skill for this.

reread my post. im basically saying that GftE had uneven duration (fraction fo second on atackers, 10 seconds on casters)

if you want full efect for casters (majority of party), you ether have to make em wand target insead of casting (laguahable suggestion not only for monks), or you have ot want 10 second before reaplying it to make sure casters get their echoes/finales.

Watch yourself is 5 seconds. guarantted. you know that if you spam it evenly every 5 secodns, all the finales and echoes WILL trigger. you cant say same about Go for...!

and, concidentally, 5 seocnd is exatly the time adren charges it.

NeferJackal

29-09-2006, 16:53

It is not feasible to maintain Finales on the entire party since they are not automatically recast. They are used for those who deserves them the most, ie those in the line of fire. Especially since there is no icon on the party list for those who are affected by a Finale, so you cannot easilly determine if it has run out. So the number of those you put it on, should be limited

Erasculio

29-09-2006, 16:55

if you want full efect for casters (majority of party), you ether have to make em wand target insead of casting (laguahable suggestion not only for monks), or you have ot want 10 second before reaplying it to make sure casters get their echoes/finales.
I don't think wasting one second to wand an enemy once in a while is that absurd.

I think an interesting secondary would be the Ritualists, not as much because of sinergy but rather because of addition - Paragons and Ritualists have ways to do similar things that do not overlap with each other, and so I think would nicely complement themselves.

Erasculio

NeferJackal

29-09-2006, 17:01

Personally I find Finales unappealing, because you cannot see if someone still has it on them, or it has expired. There really needs to be an indicator for the presence of them.

Same for Refrains, though they are much easier to manage, just having to shout or chant regularilly to keep them up indefinitely as long people stay within earshot range.

zweistein

29-09-2006, 17:04

I don't think wasting one second to wand an enemy once in a while is that absurd.

I think an interesting secondary would be the Ritualists, not as much because of sinergy but rather because of addition - Paragons and Ritualists have ways to do similar things that do not overlap with each other, and so I think would nicely complement themselves.

Erasculio

its once in 4-5 seconds i.e. every 3 spells (1 sec cast time) casted you have to stop and wand enermy if you want performance of ending efects at least same was watch yourself.

as caster might do it once in a while, but you still will be very busy with other things.

---

About ritualist, class has interesting skills (Vocal Was ...), but i cant really imagine interesting hybrid

---

imho main probles with paragon is that you have really tight stats.

you are basically forced to invest to at least 3 lines not counting secodary (spear 9, leadership ~12, at least 9 in eithe motivation/comand)

NeferJackal

29-09-2006, 17:11

Yes, you have tight stats as a paragon. And I think its a great hit to efficiency if you go without a spear as a pure supportagon.

ferralboy

29-09-2006, 17:35

I found on the offensive end of things that P/E was working well. It will be even better with some of the new ele skills that trigger additional actions based on a target burning.

NeferJackal

29-09-2006, 17:37

Care to list those Ele skills?

ferralboy

29-09-2006, 17:43

Glowing Gaze: Spell. Target foe takes 5...41 fire damage. If that foe is on Fire, you gain 1...7 Energy.

Searing Flame: Elite Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are struck with Searing Flames. Foes already on fire when this skill is cast are struck for 7...91 fire damage. Foes not already on fire begin Burning for 1...6 seconds.

ok, I really thought there were more.
and there are still the original skillz, like conjure flame to go with the fiery sunspear with the bonus pack.

Erasculio

29-09-2006, 17:54

Yes, you have tight stats as a paragon. And I think its a great hit to efficiency if you go without a spear as a pure supportagon.
Wouldn't it work to use a Spear with zero in Spear Mastery, only to use the fast attack rate of the spear to get Adrenaline and ignore the Spear Mastery skills?

I'm trying to think about good Paragon/Ritualist builds, but the problem is that I still don't know the Paragon skills very well :laugh: (I'm dumb like that, I guess, I'll only learn what they do after using them myself).

Erasculio

ferralboy

29-09-2006, 18:03

I should really just write everything at once. On the defensive end, since the Paragon with a spear is a distant attacker, I found that I could use my wards to protect healers around me as a P/E. Even with just throw away points into earth in the early levels, wards were useful against melee attacks.

Artemis Shadowhawk

29-09-2006, 18:26

You don't need attributes in Spear to hit and gain adrenaline. That can free up an attribute for many builds as it seems like everyone is saying that Spear is required no matter what.

"Go for the Eyes!" is effective. Accept it. It's a good spammable chant. Period. Making a wand attack as a caster isn't uncommon and it isn't ridiculously burdensome.

Well now that we got that out of the way and don't need 3 paragon attributes or a Warrior Seconday, let's assess secondaries. As stated, Elementalist is a good secondary due to wards and fire skills. Mark of Rodgort anyone? Ranger holds promise with Apply Poison and Anthem of Flame and Bleeding for mass condition dps. Ritualist is a good secondary due to the new Vocal skill and weapon spells. Necromancer provides plague sending , which is awesome with Cautery Signet. Furthermore, Wells operate like Wards and the blood line is always a strong secondary. Monk gives the entire smiting line along with more direct, unconditional heals, and effective hex and condition removal. Mesmer offers a possible fragility spike with Anthem of Flame. Just call a target and have everyone hit with anthem of flame on them. Mesmer also offers other useful skills such as mantras. Mantra of Physical Resistance and They're on Fire!. Echo and limited chants. And, I don't like assassins. Sorry.

Now I'm not saying that Warrior is a bad secondary, but I am saying that it's not the only secondary. To say so, is to show a lack in creativity and variance from what appears to be a rapidly developing cookie-cutter.

critical vengeance

30-09-2006, 03:41

i really don't see that many good builds with a ritualist secondary, the 2 proffessions just focus in different ways to protect the team. Spirits are better handled by rangers or ritualists (at least from the ritualist line) and most spells are too expensive to keep using.

zweistein

30-09-2006, 08:59

... lack in creativity and variance from what appears to be a rapidly developing cookie-cutter.

Ok, i get it. Unholy cookie cutter is developing at it has to be stoped regardless of it efectivity or inefectivity.

before im off this thread, lets ***** your metabuilds:

Elementalist - you dont have energy to cast fire spells often enough, paragon burning skills are more efective. wards - time will show, but wards have area range, your shouts have earshot range - guess if you are thrue 'midline' shouter, you will have hard time covering your party with wards ... not to mention that they require decent investment in thyeir line to make em worthwhile .

Elementalist with burning spell and wards is good comanion (for sake of They are on Fire!), but not secondary

Necromancer: Yes, that IS good secodary - cautery siget and 'its just a flesh wound' with condition transfers. I eve suggested it as build of choice, but since it requires elites, one can start as warrior and change to /N when he has needed skills.

about wells - same and wards, but higher cost than wards are requirenet of body make em less handy. considering that monk teams have 1-2 necroes of which one is MM and other is SS with high change of having well of bloods. using bodies should be left to profesionals

Ranger: guess what? Bleeding + Fire is already maximum degen (anbd it works perfectly). No need for poison. not to mention that with new ranger skills (Toxicity), good amount of ragers will carry poison and spread it around anyway.

Ritualist - yes, vocal is good choice, but time will show how much paragon will be hurt by inability to charge adrenalin (item spell) and whther weapon spells will be energey efective enough for paragons regeneration.

Monk - direct heals with ... 2 pips of regen, would just as funny as warrior healer? Smiting signets are more promising as they offer KD which paragon misses.

Messmer - mantras are really rarely used, doubt that there will be efective build around them at any point. as for fragility - nice, but ... why not have whole messmer in group, also, fragility triggers when new condtion applies, so if gorup focus fires, then borning is nonstop (refreshed before running out), so fragility does damage only twice.

Assassin - does not offer much, time will show.

----

all your proposed uses of secondary classes have chance but suffer efectivenes - you are better off with having primary of that class in your group for greater synergy.

skaspaakssa

30-09-2006, 15:55

all your proposed uses of secondary classes have chance but suffer efectivenes - you are better off with having primary of that class in your group for greater synergy.

That's true, but in some places your team isn't that organized, and it's not always good to be relying on someone else, because if they get shut down then you are shut down too.

During the beta weekend I took a Mesmer secondary for Mantra of Inscriptions and Fragility, just to play around and because Signet of Synergy's recharge was annoying me. With MoI up, Signet of Synergy is a free up to 104 heal every 6 seconds for you and an ally, which is comparable to the Ritualist's Soothing Memories. Cautery Signet lets you remove all conditions about every 10 seconds (15->8 recharge + 2 activation). Fragility was kind of fun too, but I think that might be better on a Mesmer primary due to energy. Expel Hexes might be nice, too, since Paragon hex removal is (I think) limited to Hexbreaker Aria. These might not be all that great, but they're ideas.

I was thinking about the Ritualist skill Weapon of Fury. With only 6 Channeling Magic you can keep it constant on yourself, and it's energy gain should pay for itself while giving you adrenaline. I know very little about adrenaline though... is Weapon of Fury helpful?

NeferJackal

30-09-2006, 16:18

While Weapon of Fury would be interesting. It is an elite, and paragons already have a MUCH better eilite to use.

Weapon of Fury 5e 1c 8 r Elite Channeling Weapon Spell
For 5...13 seconds, target ally gains 5...41% more adrenaline and 1 energy.
At 6 channeling Weapon of Fury gives a meagre 23% increase in adrenaline.

compared to

Focused Anger 10e 60r Elite Leadership Skill
For 45 seconds, you gain 0...72% more adrenaline.
Peaks at 96% more adrenaline gained at 16 Leadership.

The adrenaline gain and duration of Focused Anger far, FAR surpasses Weapon of Fury. While it doesn't have the meagre +1 energy bonus, energy usually isn't a problem for a Paragon, whom easilly gains energy from shouts and chants. Plus Paragons will usually be sporting high amounts of Leadership.

But if a ritualist could be bribed to bring Weapon of Fury as his elite, then I would be happy to become a recipient of it.

skaspaakssa

30-09-2006, 17:04

Oh, never mind Weapon of Fury then. I wasn't at all aware of Focused Anger's existance.

Artemis Shadowhawk

30-09-2006, 19:51

you are better off with having primary of that class in your group for greater synergy.Well I could say that having a primary class instead of trying to do stuff with a secondary is better too. Why be P/N when you can have three Necros instead! Good reasoning I guess.

Elementalist - you dont have energy to cast fire spells often enough, paragon burning skills are more efective. wards - time will show, but wards have area range, your shouts have earshot range - guess if you are thrue 'midline' shouter, you will have hard time covering your party with wards ... not to mention that they require decent investment in thyeir line to make em worthwhile . I don't quite get your reasoning on the range of wards and shouts, as most likely the wards would only unify a group, which would allow you to hit more people with shouts.

Necromancer: Yes, that IS good secodary - cautery siget and 'its just a flesh wound' with condition transfers. I eve suggested it as build of choice, but since it requires elites, one can start as warrior and change to /N when he has needed skills.

about wells - same and wards, but higher cost than wards are requirenet of body make em less handy. considering that monk teams have 1-2 necroes of which one is MM and other is SS with high change of having well of bloods. using bodies should be left to profesionalsRefer to the top. It seems like your common reasoning is that these classes make better companions than secondaries. Well, duh.

Ranger: guess what? Bleeding + Fire is already maximum degen (anbd it works perfectly). No need for poison. not to mention that with new ranger skills (Toxicity), good amount of ragers will carry poison and spread it around anyway.You're right and frag spiking necros know that they should stop at -10 degen anyways. Because they know that healing breeze, troll unguent, and condition removal are never used. 10+ dps conditions is needed to kill with conditions or else they'll just get countered or removed easily.

Ritualist - yes, vocal is good choice, but time will show how much paragon will be hurt by inability to charge adrenalin (item spell) and whther weapon spells will be energey efective enough for paragons regeneration.Alright.

Messmer - mantras are really rarely used, doubt that there will be efective build around them at any point. as for fragility - nice, but ... why not have whole messmer in group, also, fragility triggers when new condtion applies, so if gorup focus fires, then borning is nonstop (refreshed before running out), so fragility does damage only twice.Mantras are good. Hell you could even just use Distortion or Physical Resistance and it'd be worth while.

I mean yeah, I guess we could use the reasoning that a primary class would be better and therefore are secondaries are no good. . .

Sherlock

30-09-2006, 23:22

Petagon, Beastmaster with Ferocius strike for Energy+Adrenaline, here is build from some time ago :

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=414667

NeferJackal

30-09-2006, 23:33

Rangers will make the better beastmasters by far. Just look at the Packhunter R/P premade. While pet attacks are shouts, they are single target only, meaning very little return from leadership. Expertise is miles better here.

Artemis Shadowhawk

30-09-2006, 23:38

Unless it's a group of P/Rs.

NeferJackal

30-09-2006, 23:51

And what are you going to have the group use?

Artemis Shadowhawk

01-10-2006, 00:00

I just meant that your pet shouts wouldn't be single target only. You could probably fit in at least 4 pets.

NeferJackal

01-10-2006, 00:18

As far I know, the pet shouts only works on your own pet. Would be silly if they worked on all pets, plus timing issues with different attack shouts getting spammed.

Artemis Shadowhawk

01-10-2006, 17:56

As far I know, the pet shouts only works on your own pet. Would be silly if they worked on all pets, plus timing issues with different attack shouts getting spammed.Ah, I still think you could throw together a pretty good P/R beastmaster though. The main problem with the R/P Packhunter premade was that it had no self heal. That's why I think that taking Leadership might open up a few options. I'll think about it and maybe post a build.

NeferJackal

01-10-2006, 18:04

Well, the packhunter is geared for Arenas. I played it a lot, and I didnt find the lack of a selfheal to be of that big a problem. Though I modded it a bit to add a defensive stance for protection when nailing someone point blank with a spear.

Zaxares

02-10-2006, 07:16

I'm going to make a Paragon/Dervish solely for unlocking Dervish skills alongside my Paragon ones. I plan on using only Paragon skills for my builds, unless an unusual or effective P/D build emerges. End of story. :tongue:

NeferJackal

02-10-2006, 07:23

Zaxares

02-10-2006, 07:30

Why not just use a Dervish primary? As it seems like Nightfall is going to have the same skill aquistion model as Factions, meaning it will quickly get expensive to attain skills.

I made the same mistake when I played the Nightfall pve event, taking a dervish secondary for my paragon. Bad idea, it would have been much easier for me to stick with a warrior and just take the few skills i would have wanted from the class and focus on aquiring Paragon skills. As the more skills you buy, the price rapidly ramps up.

Or during Factions, when starting out I played a Ritualist/Assasin and religiously bought all skills at the trainers up to seitung harbor. Having No skillpoints available for Kaineng Center, and no money for max armor, forcing me to start over.

Because I already have 4 PvE characters. With Nightfall, I'll get a 5th. I don't have the time to create and play an extra character on top of my Paragon, so I'd rather obtain the Dervish skills as a byproduct of my playing with my Paragon.

Even if he never ends up using any of the Dervish skills.

I'm not too concerned about the price of skills or money for purchasing max armor. I have a pretty decent stash of gold in my storage set aside for such purposes. What I AM concerned about is a lack of skill points, but I can always bring my Paragon over to Tyria or Cantha and do some quick missions for extra skill points.

elsydeon

02-10-2006, 09:32

id agree with the above poster, with the factions skill model, there is a lot more grinding than with prophecies (1k per skill gets rather expensive when you have to buy skills over and over and over again)

i had a p/d during the preview, worked rather well with the extra armor of the paragon

IBAR

02-10-2006, 13:48

p/me

paragon <3 hex breaker :lol:

Vocal Minority(necro)
10e 1cast 20rech
Hex.For 5...17 seconds target foe and all foes in the area cannot use Shouts or Chants.

Tinnic

02-10-2006, 15:48

I was going to go Paragon/Dervish simply for skill unlocking purposes. But I have since reconsidered. I will change my Assassin's secondary to Dervish and go Paragon/Warrior!

Artemis Shadowhawk

02-10-2006, 16:28

p/me

paragon <3 hex breaker :lol:

Vocal Minority(necro)
10e 1cast 20rech
Hex.For 5...17 seconds target foe and all foes in the area cannot use Shouts or Chants.Never noticed that before. It sucks too, 'cause a paragons hex removal relies on a shout, lol.

NeferJackal

02-10-2006, 16:41

No class was ever billed to be masters of everything.

Ritualists deals well with Conditions, but have no tools for removing hexes on others.

Mesmers geared for it, can drink hexes like wine.

Monks have good condition removal and many ways to remove hexes as well.

Paragons have two ways of dealing with conditions on the party, the martyr like Cautery Signet, and the supreme Song of Purification, that can remove multiple conditions as long people keep using skills, and it is fairly spammable.

But Paragon hex removal sucks royally. Hexbreaker Aria is plain bad, a Paragon will never benefit from it, as it is an Aria. And Arias trigger their effects when the affected ally uses a SPELL! Meaning it completely excludes pure Paragons, Warriors and Rangers from being affected by it.

Jhanto Gun

02-10-2006, 19:55

for now, warrior is the best secondary. with total relaince to leadership and only 2 pips of energy plus your allies must be close to you for the shouts, chants and echos work properly, there really not much chioce for secondary profession.

I didnt have much time to play with the paragons during the events, created 2. one with warrior secondary and the other ranger. both focus on spear (I focus as much as I could on supprt during the pvp NF event) this time. they did well, with rangers I fool around with traps (BM traps) and TF for speed. I like it and both solo the newbie area most of the time.

well, when game is release players will have more time to check the paragon profession. I won't be surprise when lots of builds are created specially support. time will tell though.

Necromas

09-10-2006, 09:42

Fownkaymownkay

09-10-2006, 14:32

P/Me

Hex Breaker
Mantra of Inscriptions
Leech Signet
Signet of Synergy

--> Angelic Bond [E]

Play as a bonder for a while. SoS with a quick recharge thanks to MoI should keep you healthy. Leech Signet to utilize MoI to give you some more energy and as an interrupt.

I'll probably start a thread over this one, just needs some more tweaking in terms of attributes and utilities.

NeferJackal

09-10-2006, 14:44

Personally I am not very impressed by Signet of Synergy. It heals for a very low amount. Leader's Comfort totally blows Signet of Synergy out of the water. With 12 Leadership and 7 allies nearby, it gives a staggering heal of 189hp for just 5 energy. Though with no allies alive, it only heals for 63hp.

At 12 Motivation, Signet of Synergy heals you and an ally for 88hp. Imo the greatest problem with SoS is that you have to target an ally before you can use it, something you may not always have the time to.

If you are trying to be a 'bonder', then you cant waste time on pathetic heals like SoS, Leader's Comfort is all what you need.

Fownkaymownkay

09-10-2006, 16:25

Well, a targeted heal is always nice, IMHO. LC is perfect for yourself, but helping the monk out every 6 seconds with SoS (which is free) is not half bad.

I'm just throwing out random ideas and fragments of memory though. Like the MoI + SoS I saw some guy running in one of the arenas during the weekend.

Don't wanna get STUCK to the P/W. Even though it owns face :grin:

super sinep

09-10-2006, 17:42

When i go pvp with a paragon il be monk secondary just because i know ill be bombarded with hexes like soothing imiges and that other new necro skill that stops u using shouts :cool:

zweistein

09-10-2006, 19:47

Well I could say that having a primary class instead of trying to do stuff with a secondary is better too. Why be P/N when you can have three Necros instead! Good reasoning I guess.

Yay for out of place hyperbole argument ... ever said something about beeding/wanting 3 of whatever around?

I don't quite get your reasoning on the range of wards and shouts, as most likely the wards would only unify a group, which would allow you to hit more people with shouts.

Wards are in area. shouts are in Earshot. huge difference, you can efect whole team with shouts when having them scarreted around map and outside of your area range.

And requite a lot of investment for their efect. And reduce mobility of group, because that group is now tied to one spot if they want enjoy protection.

Totally countering paragons mobile protection possiblities.

Refer to the top. It seems like your common reasoning is that these classes make better companions than secondaries. Well, duh.

see above.

You're right and frag spiking necros know that they should stop at -10 degen
anyways. Because they know that healing breeze, troll unguent, and condition removal are never used. 10+ dps conditions is needed to kill with conditions or else they'll just get countered or removed easily.
Alright.

How many pve enemies really carry and have chance to use their regen skills?

Mantras are good. Hell you could even just use Distortion or Physical Resistance and it'd be worth while.

Ask how many warriors/rangers/assassins use those stances.

Mantras are arguably one of worse skills pve and pvp wise - tie your defence to one element, bring more mantras get ranger with winter in every area?

I mean yeah, I guess we could use the reasoning that a primary class would be better and therefore are secondaries are no good. . .

Of course secondary is NOT good if it does something that primary class does well, and what primarys class role actually is.

You could argue with same arguments for warrior bringing well of blood, fire nuking spells or Dissortion.

Paragon class has role, its role is not to be ineficent jack of all the trades.

Artemis Shadowhawk

09-10-2006, 20:40

I'm sorry, Zweistein, I disagree with your assessment of secondary professions. You could go as far to say that the secondary is not as good as the same primary; however, I disagree that a secondary is no good if a primary version is better.

For example, a N/Mo Spike Team. They use Monk secondary to heal the entire party. They don't use a monk. A monk would heal better; however, in this situation the build does not allow for a monk. To say that the monk secondary is no good is wrong in this case.

My point being that you may not always have an Elementalist or Necromancer for wards and wells and that bringing along that as a secondary is as much of a contribution as any other primary/x combination. Your party still benefits from these skills.
Wards are in area. shouts are in Earshot. huge difference, you can efect whole team with shouts when having them scarreted around map and outside of your area range.

And requite a lot of investment for their efect. And reduce mobility of group, because that group is now tied to one spot if they want enjoy protection.

Totally countering paragons mobile protection possiblities.This doesn't dispute my original statement but instead mostly states the drawbacks of wards in general. A paragon's 'mobile protection possibilities' can still apply to a group receiving the benefits of wards. And personally, I'd appreciate it if my team circulated arounds wards when I'm playing a Refrain Mender.
How many pve enemies really carry and have chance to use their regen skills?How many PvP enemies really carry and have a chance to use their regen skills?
Ask how many warriors/rangers/assassins use those stances.

Mantras are arguably one of worse skills pve and pvp wise - tie your defence to one element, bring more mantras get ranger with winter in every area?Distortion is not good? Crippling Shot Rangers. Running Rangers. Distortion is an incredibly useful skills. If you don't believe me, talk to Arredondo. Physical Resistance is of no use? With the mass abundance of Burning Paragon builds floating through these boards, the idea of Physical Resistance plus They're on Fire! never materialized I guess. Concerning Mantras, they have their places, but I was mostly thinking of Mantra of Signets and Signet of Synergy or some other signet combination.

I apologize to any other readers who have to read through this.

Finally though, I think that one secondary that is getting sold short is P/Me. Several skills can bring a lot of help to a P/Me with little need of high tertiary attributes. Distortion is a great skill for taking off any pressure and when you are running an adrenaline heavy build, is very helpful. Physical Resistance and They're on Fire! could turn you into one of the best melee tanks around. See the Pyromaniaragon build in the Solo Farming thread and use your imagination. Mantra of Signets has it's place and could help with spamming Signet of Synergy or any other signets the Paragon is destined to receive. And one of the best aforementioned skills is Hex Breaker. A P/W or P/R has no way to utilize Hex Breaker Aria and therefore has no way to remove hexes. Saying that several hexes such as Vocal Minority, Soothing Memories, and Energy or Adrenaline draining hexes can really cripple a Paragon, Hex Breaker definately has its place.

Like I have always said though, I think that by stating that P/W is the only and best secondary is limiting the Paragon and smothering new ideas and thinking that lead to some of the best builds in the games. Who ever thought to make a Ranger that uses only touch necromancer spells?

zweistein

09-10-2006, 21:07

...

Im talking from my pure PvE view.

There, for example, Dissortion is simly not option - if you wanna to use that, you zero your energy pretty fast.

Anyway - why settle for weakes ward/well/whatever when that class (paragon) has skill that he can use on full efect with similar benefit to party.

---

Yes, build are there that make great use of secodary, but those builds are mostly PvP ... apart from stray Me/E fire nuker in PvE you dont really meet much of secodnary heavy build there.

There is one simple reason - in PvP you need to pack your party with untility, counters and counter-counters. Thats why you have i.e. Well/Ward tainted necro in build.

whjat results in versatile and viable pvp build does not result in viable and worthy pve build.

As paragon, why would i put points to fire magic when i can produce all the flames i want (pun intended :afro: ) whit pure paragon skills that require no compromizing of atrobute points. This is similar to projected use of all the other secodnaries so far, even /W is being a bit overated in this regard.

Artemis Shadowhawk

09-10-2006, 21:29

And therefore, we can go back to the original statement that Paragon is independent enough to not have to utilize a secondary; however, many secondaries contribute to a paragon while still playing like a Paragon.

P/Me with Hex Breaker.
P/Mo with Smite Hex.
P/N with Plague Sending.
P/W with Watch Yourself!
etc.

My main and original point has just been that a P/W isn't the best way to go neccesarily. I know for a fact that when I was killing Angry and Beautiful Bogas, which use Soothing Memories, in the NFPE, I would've rather had a P/Me or P/Mo with hex removal instead of a P/W relying on Adrenaline based skills.

I think that Paragon can be played as a stand-alone class and do just as well as any P/x. I also think that any secondary can contribute to a Paragon in their own way. Therefore, back to my original point. Saying that P/W is the only good secondary is just not a valid point. What good is Watch Yourself and For Great Justice when you have no adrenaline and can't gain adrenaline because you're blind and hexed with soothing memories.

Just like with most classes, secondaries usually refine that class into a very specific build that works well. For PvE campaign characters, I find that I usually almost always end up using almost exclusively primary class skills. I see the Paragon being very similar in this regard. So, when it comes to playing through the night fall campaign, I am not too overly concerned with my secondary as I doubt I'll really use it much saying, I have damage, self-healing, and so on already. My secondary will most likely pick up where I lack a little, which currently seems to be Hex removal and therefore monk or mesmer. That is of course, unless Anet gives the Paragon a reasonable hex removal.

So for me, it's P/x for the win.

Also, I think that the P/W has gotten a lot of attention, because it worked soo well in the NFPE. And therefore, has limited further creativity and scrutiny of alternative secondaries. Just like a D/Mo in the PvP Event.

Minionman

09-10-2006, 21:49

There, for example, Dissortion is simly not option - if you wanna to use that, you zero your energy pretty fast.

Distortion works fine in PvE if you have an extra source of energy, which depending on the enemies attacking and shouts, a paragon might have from leadership.

Artemis Shadowhawk

09-10-2006, 22:01

Distortion works fine in PvE if you have an extra source of energy, which depending on the enemies attacking and shouts, a paragon might have from leadership.To further support that point, a Paragon can use many adrenaline based skills.

neoflame

09-10-2006, 22:11

It's Soothing Images, and what are you, a paladin? Stop expecting to solo the game.

Artemis Shadowhawk

09-10-2006, 22:26

It's Soothing Images, and what are you, a paladin? Stop expecting to solo the game.Thanks for the correction. My bad. And no I'd be playing a Paragon, not a Paladin. And I never expected to solo the game. I've been playing Guild Wars since the very first WPE before the original release of Prophecies. So please don't assume I am a noob, because I find that having my own personal hex removal is useful. I mean on the topic of working in a team, I guess I don't need to heal 'cause a monk, or deal damage 'cause a warrior or elementalist can, or buff 'cause a ritualist can. So I guess all I need to do is stand in the way and play my Paladin like any teamplayer would.

Or! I could contribute something to the team and bring my own hex removal so that the monk with his high recharge hex removals can focus on himself or other teammates while I stay clean and don't have to worry about Soothing Images or Vocal Minority and can therefore keep attacking and keep buffing. But maybe, that's just my high expectations of solo-ing a team-based game.

neoflame

09-10-2006, 22:40

NeferJackal

09-10-2006, 22:55

Minionman

10-10-2006, 00:21

Getting stuck on one secondary class seems a weakness of game planning and character planning, as others have said. Sure, the way the spells work now, "watch yourself!" works great, but that really seems to put a limit on how a paragon can be built. Unless the designers really don't care too much, it seems either that other good combinations have been found that can compete with "watch yourself", and/or the effects will be changed so that watch yourself on warrior secondary is in line with other seconadries, so a P/W might be good, but other secondary's can be found that are about as good.

Artemis Shadowhawk

10-10-2006, 00:24

Good idea. While you're at it, why don't you bring Purge Conditions to clear blind, Protective Bond so you can tank, and Mending to take pressure off the monk? Hex Breaker is nice, but the synergy of "Watch Yourself!" on a Paragon is just too good to pass off without a really good excuse.Lol, so that's what that was about. Another assurance that P/W is the only way to go. Take "Go For the Eyes!" and free up your secondary. And of course, exactly what NeferJackal said.

"Watch Yourself!" is a good skill. I know that. I played a P/W. I posted the "Watch Yourself!" Best Energy Management in the game thread. I helped advocate "Watch Yourself!" right after the NFPE. However, it is not the only skill. And it in no way makes Warrior the best secondary. A Paragon can already shout and chant. You don't really need more shouts and chants. Personally, I really like Energizing Chorus + any chant. "Go For the Eyes!" doesn't require a secondary and still aids in the replenishing of echoes and energy gain.

Fownkaymownkay

10-10-2006, 12:18

The cool thing is, all these arguements bring up new ideas. :grin:

TBH, as great as hex removal is in PvE, it's not much to ping that you have Vocal Minority/Soothing Memories on you so that the monk can remove it. He's not gonna go, "OMG YOU SUX BRING HEX REMOVAL NEXT TIME!"

Plus, if he has Energizing Chorus on him, he'd be doing himself a favor if he took Vocal Minority off of you.

So don't try to focus the whole point of a secondary for hex removal, broaden your scopes a bit. Maybe a smiting P/Mo? Warding P/E? (Which may or may not be a great idea. It could be if you want to be in the frontline with the tank, who has FIRMLY established aggro.)

Also, its not like if you are a P/W you AUTOMATICALLY are a healer who uses WY!. Is it not possible that you are using something like say, Soldier's Fury + Axe/Hammer/Sword? (Who may use WY, yes, but he's not a healer, see?)

Yeah, that's what I think.