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Quintus Antonius
30-09-2006, 04:17
Please note: This article may contain spoilers related to the storylines of Prophcies and Nightfall.






Recently, while doing the Abaddon's Mouth mission in the Ring of Fire Islands, I couldn't help but take note some shocking finds that seem to suggest the prescence of a certain fallen god.

Obviously, the name Abaddon's Mouth seems to imply that Abaddon has some tie to the region, but it has been argued that the name alone is very circumstancial evidence.

However, I believe I have found evidence to show that Abaddon does indeed have ties to the area, and that the Door of Komalie may feed directly into the Realm of Torment.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3421/abaddonrofvr2.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abaddonrofvr2.jpg)

Here I have complied several screenshots and featured the concept art of Abaddon along with them. Take note of the similarities marked.

Also, keep in mind that the Art of Guild Wars bonus concept art book describes Abaddon's Mouth as being a volcano posessed by evil, which causes the lavaflows to harden into disjointed evil faces.

On the surface, it seems that this posession is simply alluding to the Titans, and until Nightfall, it could probably be reasonable to assume this meaning. However, I believe the evidence I am providing shows that this posession is in fact Abaddon.

One discrepancy I noticed, and took note of, was that, while Abaddon is shown with six eyes, the formations only have two. I have no explanation for this. Perhaps the visages are not Abaddon's, but only influenced by him.

I also believe that the Door of Komalie may lead directly to the Realm of Torment where Abaddon is being held. From what we know of Nightfall, Abaddon is described as being "sealed" or "imprisoned" in the Realm of Torment. "Sealed" or "imprisoned" are logical words one could use to describe being trapped behind the door. Also, the Guardians that emerge when the ether seals are broken and the door opens temporarily are "corrupted" as the ghostly Jacob tells us. They were driven mad, while some, as himself, were pure of heart enough to remain. This seems to suggest that after being inserted into the soul batteries, the Chosen souls enter the realm of Torment.

Furthermore, concepts for the Realm of Torment show the landscape made out of faces and other body parts, similar to the Ring of Fire lava formations, only made of flesh instead of pumice. Another clue is the prescence of the anatomical oddies known as flesh golems (fire golems in Cantha).

My final piece of evidence comes in the form of a screenshot. When I noticed the swirling shapes behind the Door of Komalie, something very obvious stood out to me--they had a shape.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5555/abaddondoorhd0.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abaddondoorhd0.jpg)

Yes, I believe that what we are seeing here is in fact the form of Abaddon in the fire behind the Door. Note the features I have highlighted. Also note how the portal from which the souls are escaping bears a strong resemblence to the chaos portals seen at the Dragon Festival and the Tomb of Primeval Kings.

One or two of these things alone might be dismissed, but all of them together, further coupled with the name "Abaddon's Mouth" seem to strongly suggest that Abaddon is in fact trapped behind the Door of Komalie.

I would theorize that because the Chosen stopped the Lich before he could adequetly finish his summoning of the Titans, Abaddon was not able to use the Door as a means of escape. However, enough of his essence was able to escape, possibly in the form of the spirits we see emenating from the portals, that he has been able to re-establish himself as a upcoming force, which we will see in Nightfall.

Xycury
30-09-2006, 04:37
nice and interesting!!!!

isn't the rumor that Nightfall was going to wrap up the stories together?

very interesting.

Blazing Liger
30-09-2006, 04:39
Well, those flames may be mere coincidence, but the faces do show some Abaddon-like influence, I will admit. Very good theory, Quintus. I'm glad to see more proof being found for this Abaddon-Door of Komalie connection than the name "Abaddon's Mouth."

Ranger Nietzsche
30-09-2006, 04:48
MM the ring of fire formations are very nice comparisons.


I just don't see Abaddon in teh door though. it seems to me to be a case of seeing what you want to see. fire often looks like various physical objects, especially when you stare at it long enough.

ShadowSword
30-09-2006, 10:27
Does sound like it's basically a prison realm where any evil things tend to get imprisoned. But those faces also appear in the Pre-Sear Catacombs so what's that relation?

ShadowReapr
30-09-2006, 12:38
I tend to concur with your theory, QA, but I've never exactly had proof to, er, prove it. Nice job.

I still think it's possible that Abaddon is a Prometheus-like God, albeit extra-evil (but oh boy, you'd think Dwayna and crew might have foreseen that he'd try and get the bloodstones back into the known world), which is why he was imprisoned. That's naught but speculation, but something a little more realistic involves the Vizier. We all know he read a dark scroll, caused a bit of trouble and went a bit mad (never mind the decomposing flesh bit), but we didn't quite know where the scroll came from, or why it existed. It's logical to assume that the scroll was actually one of Abaddon's (the Gods resided in Orr, and I wouldn't rule out him being a part of the group at one point), which is what set the Lich off on his journey to set his master free, albeit not knowing it.

Continumanomaly
30-09-2006, 12:49
The scepter of Orr could possibly be an artifact made by Abaddon and thats why it could control the titans if the titans origin is also from Abaddon.

Sir Jack
30-09-2006, 13:17
Small note: The things you call wings seem to be more snakes... more like serpents, Twin Serpents even...

Art
30-09-2006, 13:20
Great piece of writing QA, and certainly proof enough that Abaddon and the Door are in some way connected.

I'm still interested in how this is connected to the Searing (causing the chosen - Us, to end up there) and why the Mursaat started spreading over the Southern Shiverpeaks drawing attention to themselves from the dwarves (and their more practical god that predates Glint).

-Art

Poisoned Hunter
30-09-2006, 13:20
wow simply just wow, nicer job quintus as always..

Gmr Leon
30-09-2006, 17:37
But those faces also appear in the Pre-Sear Catacombs so what's that relation?

Yeah...Even if they are supposedly in ruins we can't discount those faces as simply just there for the sake of it..

Sir Jack
30-09-2006, 20:49
While doing Riverside Province today for mapping purposes, I noticed womething on the Scepter of Orr:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/e/ed/Scepter_of_Orr.JPG

It sort of has the same tentacle structure up to the blue crystal as the ones in Tombs, and wing-like/horns structure next to it. I've also always found it strange they call it the Scepter of Orr. My guess is it's left behnd by one of the Gods, because humans didn't know of the Titans, thus the Orrians couldn't possibly create a weapon to control them. It's also a staff to normal humans instead of a Scepter, which is usually 2 handed.

Scepter of Abaddon maybe?

Quintus Antonius
30-09-2006, 20:53
Actually....


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
scep‧ter  /ˈsɛptər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sep-ter] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a rod or wand borne in the hand as an emblem of regal or imperial power.
2. royal or imperial power or authority; sovereignty.
–verb (used with object) 3. to give a scepter to; invest with authority.

Also, especially British, sceptre.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1250–1300; ME (s)ceptre < OF < L scēptrum < Gk skęptron staff; akin to shaft]

—Related forms
scep‧ter‧less, adjective
scep‧tral /ˈsɛptrəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sep-truhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


It is a scepter.

It's called the Scepter of Orr because it was the symbol of Orrian royality.

Sir Jack
30-09-2006, 21:02
Yeah well...most other scepters in game are single handed weapons anyway.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=scepter&go=Go

In my country (and other probably too), we tend to call the one handed ones Scepters and two handed ones Staves.

Docho
30-09-2006, 21:05
Actually....



It is a scepter.

It's called the Scepter of Orr because it was the symbol of Orrian royality.
I'm not saying Sir Jack is right, but a scepter is always one-handed (If I remember correctly?) and not two-handed like the Scepter of Orr. It is even much bigger than any other regular staff we see ingame!

That it is called 'The Scepter of Orr' doesn't mean it's made by human hands, perhaps it was a gift from the gods? Perhaps it is from Abaddon? I would not dare to make any bet about it...

edit: I'm too slow when I post something...

Akirai Annuvil
30-09-2006, 21:15
That doesn't mean it couldn't be left behind by the Gods; it just means it was probably adopted by the royalty as a symbol of their power. That's assuming htey looked up the meaining of the word in the dictionary since many connect it with just a symbol of a high power (god, king whatever).
It's also more logical that the Gods made a staff/scepter to control the Titans than that the humans made one, because they didn't even know of them.

Quintus Antonius
30-09-2006, 21:21
Guys, I wasn't disagreeing. I was just saying that the name is fine.

Tuor Son Of Huor
01-10-2006, 02:39
Wonderful as always: Good find!


This seems to suggest that after being inserted into the soul batteries, the Chosen souls enter the realm of Torment.

Interesting that you say this: in the "Imprisoned Souls" quest in the UW - the only mention of the Realm of Torment in Prophecies - the Reaper says:


"While I was trapped by the Terrorwebs, many souls which should not have been consigned to such a fate were cast down into the pit. Most have been lost forever, but a few remain who have not yet been driven to madness. I shall make it possible for them to escape the realm of torment. Do not allow these Released Spirits to be destroyed."

Perhaps he means the Chosen?

Quintus Antonius
01-10-2006, 03:01
It's possible I suppose. I'm not going to speculate on that though, as I simply don't have evidence to form a hypothesis on.

ShadowSword
01-10-2006, 09:51
Would still like to know why those faces are also in Pre-Searing Catacombs?

Robot Stalin
01-10-2006, 11:16
Lazy dev. Seriously.

The catacombs are a training area for Ascalonian necromancers, aswell as a burial ground. There's no "evil" in there, besides a few restless undead and that Moa cult thing.

What's interesting to note, however, is that the faces only appear around the bone pit. Maybe the bones have something to do with it.

Ivan Drago
01-10-2006, 13:40
The similarities between the tentacles and Abaddon's head/mask are really striking!

BTW, the decayed city of Fahranur on Istan which was struck by a plague features the same tentacles in the water reservoir in the middle of the city.

These tentacles seem to be everywhere, we have seen them on dozens of images so far.

Interesting is also that:

1. Margonites have 6 eyes, too. Their faces are very similar to Abaddon's face. I am not sure if either Abaddon or the Margonites are wearing a mask.

They look very similar, that is a fact.

2. The Oni. Someone mentioned the Abaddon head/mask reminds him of the Oni. Indeed there are similarities, even though they are not as clear and there are some differences. They seem to have more than two eyes as well, I count 6:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/a/a7/Oni.jpg

They are related to Kanaxai, not to Abaddon. But they are of demonic nature, too. It seems as if everything that is evil has 6 eyes in Guild Wars. :)


The Realm of Torment is said to feature giant (oxen) eyes in hills that watch you, while you walk over black/grey epidermis. Creepy.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/341/nightfallconceptart1024x768in2.th.jpg (http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nightfallconceptart1024x768in2.jpg)

The Ring of Fire has ashen stone faces.

There is also a huge "grey" sandy area on this Elona Map:
http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/5918/gwnightfallea1.th.jpg (http://img480.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gwnightfallea1.jpg)


Another entrance to the Realm of Torment, which we think is part of or related to the Underworld?

Quintus Antonius
01-10-2006, 14:12
Keep in mind, that the alleged explored Elonian map is not official. Even if it turns out to be 100% correct, I cannot, in good judgement, consider it a official source of lore until it is confirmed in-game.

****

As for the Oni, I agree they are demonic, but we don't know how demons function in Guild Wars. Do they all originate from one place? Or are they spawned and aligned solely with their creator (in this case Kanaxai)?

As for the eyes on the Oni: are those eyes? They look like holes to me. We don't know how the Oni detect sensory input, so those "eyes" may function in any number of ways, sight not necessarily included.

My final point is that the Oni really don't look much like Abaddon at all. Most of the "minions" of Abaddon we've been shown have almost identical features to him, if not some minor deviations.

If anything, the Oni are based on the Deep Ones of H.P. Lovecraft's novels:

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2003/20031013/gallery/deepones.jpg

Sir Jack
01-10-2006, 14:41
In regards to having the faces in Pre-Searing Catacombs as well:
If Abaddon is/was indeed kept behind the Door of Komalie, or somewhere else in the Volcano, he might be able to create the faces by letting his evil flow within the boiling hot magma. This would mean he'd still have the ability to let lose a bit of his powers by sending the evil through the core, so it could reach deep underground places (Catacombs). In the same way, Abaddon might have helped Kanaxai, who was trapped in the Jade Sea until a few Luxons digged too deep, found him and went mad and were known as outcast (do they worship Abaddon too?). Also, the whole digging to deep - stumbling on a demon is sort of a LOTR reference, where the dwarves dug too deep in Moria and dug up a Balrog who was trapped there.

Quintus Antonius
01-10-2006, 15:01
"Waking nightmares", which is how the Oni are described, as well as the demon beneath the sea are directly ripped from Lovecraft. Oh the C'thuhlu mythos!

False Visage
01-10-2006, 17:06
I have a more simple hypothesis for the name, if Abbadon really is involved:

Abbadon is the one responsible for making it uninhabitable to people, not neccesarily having any realtion to the Titans or Mursaat.

shadow the hero
01-10-2006, 18:00
If anything, the Oni are based on the Deep Ones of H.P. Lovecraft's novels


A fierce horned demon somewhat akin to the ogre found in Western mythology. Oni have the power to transform into the human female form in order to mask their true identity...

Devils with shaggy hair, horns and fangs who wield huge gnarled clubs. They usually guard the gates of the various Buddhist hells and perform tortures on condemned souls. When they have an earthly manifestation, oni are malevolent towards humankind although upon occasion they can be turned temporarily towards good by the intervention of a priest; however, this rarely lasts very long and soon the oni is back to his usual vile self

You know how a Oni Attacks and moves his arm? he/that swings it like a club (becuase of that Oversize it is). I don't think Anet ripped of H.P Lovecraft's "Deep ones". i think they combinated the Japanese and Western "Oni" into one and made this Creature.
as for it eyes: in the Art-book, there is a picture of the Oni, The eyes are holes, which blood comes out from.

Yes Oni's are Kanaxai's Minions, but Who created Kanaxai? And what was HIS purpose

Ivan Drago
01-10-2006, 18:12
I think Quintus is right on point with the Lovecraft-Influence.

Oni have of course Japanese roots, but come on, Kanaxai is in "THE DEEP" (one more hint), and the Oni are manifestations of his nightmares, something along this lines.

Maybe that some ANet designers also have watched "Surface" on TV, but well, those nightmarish monsters always have something in common, somehow.


We have seen some sinister landscapes, maybe these are part of the Realm of Tormemt. Maybe this place is a metaphysical place, it is probably in the Mists, the manifestation of the bad dreams of an evil god is not unlikely.

I wonder why Abaddon and the Margonites look so similar. Finally, I am really keen on knowing what Abaddon did that he was banned & burnished from all history. I hope Nightfall gives some answers to this, and as Jeff Strain promised Mr. Jeff Grubb would tie together some lose ends in Nightfall, I am really looking forward to it.


EDIT: Kanaxai was simply there... was Urgoz. I do not think Demonkind has a "mommy" like everyone else except drill sergeants.

Chthon
01-10-2006, 18:33
We know that the Dwayna et al pantheon of Gods, like the Olympian pantheon, are not the creator Gods, but rather a subsequent generation of Gods which siezed power. There was at least one older generation of Gods, which we know included at least three Gods: Dhuum and Balthazaar's parents (he has a brother, therefore he must have parents). (Possibly only two if Dhuum is Balthazaar's father.) We know the Dwayna pantheon are not creator Gods, since humans had to be dying, and therefore living, and therefore already created, in order that Dhuum be an unjust underworld God during his earlier reign.

I speculate that, when the Dwayna pantheon revolted, Abaddon sided with the Dhuum pantheon, and shared their fate when they lost. The Dwayna pantheon sealed their vanquished foes away in a prison realm presumably forever and proceed to erase all traces of them, leaving the human world with the false impression that they were the only (creator) Gods.

I further speculate, in agreement with OP, that the Door of Komalie at Abaddon's Mouth, along with the grasp portals, are portals leading to this prison realm. I expect that we will find that the titans, the demons infesting the underworld, the grasps infesting the tombs, and possibly Kanaxie are all escapees from the prison realm attempting to retake the other realms.
(Two notes on the titans: (1) The name should be a dead giveaway. (2) It may be important that they are disembodied white ghostly things that form corporeal bodies out of the materials at hand - magma, plants, ice (watch the penultimate cutscene at Hell's Precipice closely) - or maybe not.) Of course, I also expect to see a new and visually stunning race of creepy crawlies from the prison realm in Nightfall.

As for how these troublemakers are escaping from the prison realm, I have two theories:

Theory 1: We did it. The Door of Komalie was not just a seal, it was THE seal, and opening it even for a little bit weakened the barriers enough that the inhabitants of the prison realm have been able to punch through into other realms (UW, tombs, jade sea?) at other places. Under this theory, UW and FoW come after the main plot of Prophecies and Glint is really going to be in trouble the next time I see her.
This theory is supported by the King Doric story. Clearly, it must be false, since the Dwayna pantheon are not the creator Gods, but it may have a grain of truth - the Dwayna pantheon may have been sealing something at the volcano with the bloodstones, and that something could have been Abaddon and the fallen Gods. After the erasure of the losers' names from history, later generations needed to invent an evil thing to seal away for the story to make sense, and they invented the "misuse of magic" evil that's in the story today. This would mean that the Door of Komalie is THE seal.

Theory 2: The barriers to the prison realm began breaking down over 1072 years ago. Perhaps they were faulty from the start. The reason for the Exodus of the Gods was that the Dwayna pantheon's full attention was required to combat the jailbreak. With their full effort, the Dwayna pantheon has maintained a rough equilibrium that has kept the big-name prisoners imprisoned, but has been slowly failing on total containment, given the state of affaris in the UW and the tombs. The mid-game events of Nightfall will be the "straw that breaks the camel's back" and sets a least 1 big-name prisoner - Abaddon - free.
This might help explain the plot of Factions. Shiro was manipulated into doing what he had seemingly little motive to do because it somehow benefited the prisoners. Perhaps the jade wind helped them in some way. Or perhaps having a corrupt envoy siphoning off souls that should have gone to the UW helped them. (Perhaps with their efforts to reclaim the UW?) Perhaps the balance between the prisoners' efforts to escape the the Dwayna pantheon's efforts to keep them in is the "balance" Torivos refers to when he says that "the universe will spiral out of balance" if Shiro is not stopped.
(Super-dark alternative Cantha sub-theory: The Dwayna pantheon orchestrated the jade wind for the purpose of re-imprisoning Kanaxie who had escaped from the prison realm.)
Under this theory, it's not clear which side Glint is on. Perhaps opening the seal for even a moment helped the prisoners, and that was her intent all along. Or perhaps she sent us to strengthen the barrier by charging the soul batteries with an ultra-long-lasting lich soul (it keeps going, and going, and going...) instead of puny chosen souls. It's not really clear.

And then, of course, there's Gwen....

Woop Shotty
01-10-2006, 18:51
I think it's probably just art style coincidence but it's possible that it was their intent.

Ranger Nietzsche
01-10-2006, 19:11
We know that the Dwayna et al pantheon of Gods, like the Olympian pantheon, are not the creator Gods, but rather a subsequent generation of Gods which siezed power.

No we don't. Don't call educated guesses "Knowledge" Socrates would slap you silly.



We know the Dwayna pantheon are not creator Gods, since humans had to be dying, and therefore living, and therefore already created, in order that Dhuum be an unjust underworld God during his earlier reign.


Logic flaw. We see other things in the underworld than dead humans. Just as easily true that Dhuum was unjustly ruling the AAtxe's, reapers, and all other sorts of things in there.


Balthazaar's parents (he has a brother, therefore he must have parents)

Logic flaw again. Balthazaar and menzies could have spawned from each other. Gods have tendencies to have really really really really weird procreation. Like Athena springign forth fully armored from the head of Zeus. Or Dionysus being born out of Zeus' thigh. (or maybe that was Hermes I forget).


This theory is supported by the King Doric story. Clearly, it must be false, since the Dwayna pantheon are not the creator Gods

Don't say things like this. Just because something disagrees with your theory does NOT I repeat NOT mean it is false, skewed, or cheated. In fact, more likley it means your theory needs to be updated to incorporate this new evidence.


Your theory, while backed by some in game evidence, has one large piece of evidence against it. The MANUSCRIPTS. And thats a very large piece. It is unwise to cast doubt on the manuscripts, they are the largest collection of lore we have. If we might consider them with the sort of grain of salt that we take some in game testimony from NPCs with the result is a collapse of our largest knowledge base. For the sake of Discussion, we MUST hold them as true. Else the dialogue is lost.

Quintus Antonius
01-10-2006, 19:51
Your theory, while backed by some in game evidence, has one large piece of evidence against it. The MANUSCRIPTS. And thats a very large piece. It is unwise to cast doubt on the manuscripts, they are the largest collection of lore we have. If we might consider them with the sort of grain of salt that we take some in game testimony from NPCs with the result is a collapse of our largest knowledge base. For the sake of Discussion, we MUST hold them as true. Else the dialogue is lost.

What he said. And very well said indeed. We have to take official lore as...well...official. ANet gives us very little to work with, and we need to maintain that when they do give us something, it is true.

Chthon
01-10-2006, 22:01
No we don't. Don't call educated guesses "Knowledge" Socrates would slap you silly.

If A came before B, B cannot be "first." That's inherent in the definition of "first." I fail to see how you can reasonably object to this statement. As the product of very, very obvious deduction, we "know" it.


Logic flaw. We see other things in the underworld than dead humans. Just as easily true that Dhuum was unjustly ruling the AAtxe's, reapers, and all other sorts of things in there.

That's pretty silly. By definition an underworld is a place for the dead. I think you are just arguing an absurd counter-example for the sake of being contrarian here. Moreover, Aatxe's are part of the demon infestation, and are not native to the UW.


Logic flaw again. Balthazaar and menzies could have spawned from each other. Gods have tendencies to have really really really really weird procreation. Like Athena springign forth fully armored from the head of Zeus. Or Dionysus being born out of Zeus' thigh. (or maybe that was Hermes I forget).

Again, you are relying on a very absurd twist to the meaning of "brother" to argue against a reasonable interpretation. Your twist goes further than the examples you cite, since in both cases Zeus was still a "father" to the new, younger Gods. Moreover, I believe Balthazaar and Menzies are actually "half-brothers." That's a very specific term that means each had 2 parents, one of whom was the same. You can't seriously be telling me that "half-brother" doesn't imply the existence of parents.



Don't say things like this. Just because something disagrees with your theory does NOT I repeat NOT mean it is false, skewed, or cheated. In fact, more likley it means your theory needs to be updated to incorporate this new evidence.
Your theory, while backed by some in game evidence, has one large piece of evidence against it. The MANUSCRIPTS. And thats a very large piece. It is unwise to cast doubt on the manuscripts...

I think you make a mistake when you insist the manuscripts must be literally true within the game world. I am NOT throwing the manuscripts out the window; I'm merely recognizing the possibility that they reflect the beliefs of the fictional person who wrote them down, which may or may not coincide with the "objective" truth. I see their place in bigger picture of the GW story as myths which were written down and perpetuated by human scribes of great, but limited knowledge several generations after the fact. Accordingly, I don't see any reason why it should be forbidden to look inside the black box of myth formation in the lore forum.

Let's take a little look inside the black box of myth formation: The manuscripts were written by a human, since they refer to "us humans." Moreover, because they do not purport to explain events from any God's point of view, they appear to be based on the accounts of mere mortal witnesses. Per the manuscripts, King Doric was the only human described as present at the bloodstone ceremony. The manuscripts refer to Doric in the third person and cover events far after his death in a continuous narrative, so he could not be the author. So, it seems reasonable to conclude that Doric's version of the event was passed down over several generations and eventually written down in the manuscripts. There's no reason to believe that Doric fully understood what happened. Maybe it was beyond his comprehension. Maybe Grenth gave him a less-than-complete-and-truthful explanation of what was happening. There's even less reason to believe the story made it from Doric to the author of the manuscripts without modification. Given the fallibility of the NPC's involved in writting it, the King Doric story is probably not the literal truth of what happened.

To me, it seems much more believable that the King Doric story is a myth recast by fictional storytellers who believed that the Dwayna pantheon were the creator Gods than that the Dwayna pantheon actual are the creator Gods - since that latter choice leads to such silliness as Dhuum ruling an underworld with no dead people and half-brothers having no parents. Even if the plot never revisits the "actual events" behind the Doric myth as I theorize, it still has to be a myth because it makes no sense taken literally.

Once we start taking myths as myths, we can start to reconcile some of the inconsistencies in the lore. If we want to speculate about an age-old plot by an "erased" God, we have to accept that the historians of contemporaneous events could not have been perfectly informed and accurate, since the plot would have been discovered if they were. Any time new chapters add to the cosmology, the manuscripts will end up looking inconsistent, or at the very least like they left out important things that should have been mentioned. By taking the archaic portions of the manuscripts as myths rather than literal truths, we can resolve the inconsistencies without chucking the manuscripts altogether.

Quintus Antonius
01-10-2006, 23:36
We take the Manuscripts as truth because they are heavily supported in-game. They speak of Doric and the Bloodstones, and just as they say, the Bloodstones are there. Also, the Forgotten: they speak very accurately of the Forgotten, who not only exist, but are exactly where they were said to be, doing exactly what they were said to be doing. Furthermore, most of the Manuscript stories are backed up by multiple species, meaning they aren't just the mythos of one group, but everyone.

Also, it is completely possible that what Ranger N. was saying was true. They could be half-brothers and still be spawned in the same oddball manner as the Greek and Roman gods. Many of the gods were half-brothers and half-sister from Zeus and their mother, or Zeus and their sister, or in some odd cases, Zeus alone. Genetics just don't function the same way when we talk about deitistic superbeings. As odd as Ranger N.'s examples are, they get even stranger.

I don't see a conflict in the Manuscripts at all, really. Some areas may have more than one interpretation, but I do not think they are wrong as a whole.

As for death before Grenth, remember, Giganticus Lupicus went extinct long before humans, and probably before Grenth. I think that death is command over more than just humans, after all, we do find GL bones in the Underworld.

So, I don't see a problem making compromises, or interperting the Manuscripts differently as the case warrants, but I disagree with rewriting them totally, especially when there isn't a plethora of evidence directly recommending it.

Chthon
02-10-2006, 00:34
Also, it is completely possible that what Ranger N. was saying was true. They could be half-brothers and still be spawned in the same oddball manner as the Greek and Roman gods. Many of the gods were half-brothers and half-sister from Zeus and their mother, or Zeus and their sister, or in some odd cases, Zeus alone. Genetics just don't function the same way when we talk about deitistic superbeings. As odd as Ranger N.'s examples are, they get even stranger.

Ranger N was not saying that. Ranger N was saying that Balthazaar and Menzies may have spawned from each other so that they would have no parents at all, even though they called "half-brothers." That crosses the line from bizarre procreation into just plain silly.
The only not-silly conclusion from the existence of Dhuum and the fact that Balthazaar and Menzies and "half-brothers" is that another generation of Gods came before them, much like another generation of Gods (the Titans) came before the Olympians. Likewise, the only not-silly conclusion from the fact that Dhuum ruled the underworld before the 5 Gods is that the underworld and a populated overworld to feed into it already existed before the 5 Gods. (I do concede it is possible that some other race could have populated the overworld at that time, which was replaced with humans by the 5 Gods. But then I wonder where they went and why we've heard nothing of them? Perhaps they are the Titans, Mursaat, and Seers?)
That means that (even if they created humans) the 5 Gods could not have been the creators of the world. This is inconsistent with the parts of the manusripts that holds the 5 Gods as the creators of the world. I resolve the inconsistency by taking the manuscripts as myths written by fictional humans who don't always get things perfectly right. If they missed a 6th God entirely, why is it so hard to believe they got the creation story a little wrong?

Ultimately this boils down to whether the devs meant to give us history or mythology when they gave us the manuscripts. Given the internal inconsistencies, the need for something heretofore unknown and yet an ancient part of the cosmology to appear every chapter or two, and the fact that they hired an outside writer for Nightfall and plan to do so for future chapters, I think they gave us mythology. Mythology is flexible, history isn't... or at least isn't supposed to be. Even if they originally meant to give us history, I think we will see it reconned to mythology in Nightfall or very soon thereafter. The storyteller for future chapters is painted into too small a corner if the story they tell has to take the manuscripts and all prior random NPC statements as literally true. Sooner or later, the only way to keep the lore coherent and internally consistent will be to break down and say that the lore-telling NPC's and the manuscripts are fallible sources of more-accurate-than-average myths rather than hard facts.

Quintus Antonius
02-10-2006, 00:41
I think that the Manuscripts, like similar documents for every single fantasy genre out there, are a combination of history and myth, and that, like all fantasy games, those two are interchangable.

I do agree with you that the nature of the gods is somewhat more myth than it is factual history, and I believe it is probable that Tyria existed before them, and that they arose from a race of Tyria (similar to the Mursaat) to the positions they are in. However, I do not think that this calls into question everything in the Manuscripts. I do tend to believe we have to take the Manuscripts at face value, which is a historical record of Tyria.

Ranger Nietzsche
02-10-2006, 06:03
OK here goes.


If A came before B, B cannot be "first." That's inherent in the definition of "first." I fail to see how you can reasonably object to this statement.

I fail to see how this statement in your post (which is the one i responded to):


We know that the Dwayna et al pantheon of Gods, like the Olympian pantheon, are not the creator Gods, but rather a subsequent generation of Gods which siezed power.

contains any part of the word "First"

Next point,


That's pretty silly. By definition an underworld is a place for the dead. I think you are just arguing an absurd counter-example for the sake of being contrarian here. Moreover, Aatxe's are part of the demon infestation, and are not native to the UW.

Acutally this is the definition for the underworld


un‧der‧world  /ˈʌndərˌwɜrld/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhn-der-wurld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the criminal element of human society.
2. the imagined abode of departed souls or spirits; Hades.
3. a region below the surface, as of the earth or a body of water.
4. the opposite side of the earth; the antipodes.
5. Archaic. the earth.


So the underworld could just have originally been a cave. Then adapted for the dead. Additionally just because Dhuum ruled the UW first doesn't mean he came before Grenth. Grenth could have made Dhuum and put him in charge of the UW. Then Grenth saw how bad a job he did and took over.

As for Balthazar and Menzies, QA explained how messed up God genetics are. After all, in the case of Zeus and Athena, the only reason we call Athena his daughter is because we wanted to. Technically she asexually "budded" from Zeus which in Biology results in an identical copy. If god genetics worked in normal terms Zeus and athena would be twins.

Conversely, the father of balthazar and menzies could have been grenth. or any number of the pantheon. they may have both spontaneously grown from Chaos and Night, like Uranus did for the Romans. They may be half brothers just because we call them that, and may not be genetically so.

Finally, the manuscripts describe the gods as "Despite the serpents' retreat, the gods never halted their work creating the world,"
which means the gods were still creating the world while humans were on it.




My point was you chose to manipulate the interpretation of the manuscripts before you manipulate the interpretation of in game information. I think that is a mistake for the reasons cited previously.

You are quicker to belive the manuscripts lie than to belive a random Eternal ghost spirit in the Fissure of Woe lies, or deathly Reapers in the Underworld.

And that is dangerous in my opinion.

Noggin
02-10-2006, 12:53
Just a thought that popped up in my lunch break (this is my first post on the forum). I have been pondering on the Abaddon and Nightfall link and wondered whether it is the events at the end of the propecies campaign that initiates it. The volcano erupts at the end of the campaign which could, if large enough, create a vast ash column which would blot out the sun in the lands of the prevailing wind direction; hence a state of "Nightfall". This desctruction could also act as a release for a creature / person entitled "Abaddon".

Ivan Drago
02-10-2006, 13:09
While I take Nightfall more in the figurative sense, Noggin has a point.

And who helped to free the great evil?

Our great Ascalonian heroes! Hooray!

Quintus Antonius
02-10-2006, 13:36
That's not so surprising, Ivan. Think about the Prophecies storyline, almost every event was perpetuated by our "heroes". The Chosen wouldn't have been sacraficed if we hadn't captured them, they wouldn't have been lost if we were a bit faster in the Jungle, the Vizier wouldn't have the Scepter if we hadn't given it to him, the Flameseeker Prophecies would have been completed if we hadn't listened to him, and the Titans wouldn't have been freed if we hadn't killed the Mursaat.

Next time people are declaring how evil the Mursaat are, think about what I just said. We were rather evil as well, even though it was all done under the "best intentions".

ShadowSword
02-10-2006, 16:27
Please let's not take the theory we freed Abadoon as fact. We're not even sure of that yet or even if he was behind the Door of Komalie.

As for the Balthazaar, Menzies thing there's no need for his parents to be part of the elder pantheon. They could have been normal humans with their children risen to godhood. That would work with either Menzies being selected to become part of the elder pantheon and Balthazaar becomign a God later to overthrow him (sibling rivalry eh?) or Menzies was originally part of the latter pantheon before Balthazaar took his place.

Edit: Was Menzies ever actually referred to as a God or jsut the ruler of Fow?

TimOfDoom
02-10-2006, 16:47
That theory fits in very well, and yes especially the statues also, what about the Charr effigys, they're titans... Titans... Servants of Abaddon Charr his worshippers?.....
:smiley:
~Doom

EDIT: What caused the Charr to go south, discovering something in the north? A gateway? an ancient inscription/text.....? and the Charr aren't savages they are intelligent, maybe htey were peaceful once then they found something that took them over...?

Arkhan The Black
02-10-2006, 16:48
Maybe Abaddon is the original god that created the other gods. He intended to use them for further conquest of worlds but they rebelled against him. They trap him in the realm of Torment, later they order the Mursaat to keep the Titans locked up.

Everything goes smooth until Abaddon tries to break out of the realm of Torment and the Bloodstones is scattered around Tyria as a result. With the gods gone from Tyria the Mursaat becomes desperate to keep the Titans at bay and decides to use questionable methods.

There is also the possibility that Abaddon is a manmade god that was spawned from evil desires, hatred, spite and malice. Eventually all the evil generated from Tyria manifested it self as Abaddon.

Chthon
02-10-2006, 17:37
...
So the underworld could just have originally been a cave. Then adapted for the dead. Additionally just because Dhuum ruled the UW first doesn't mean he came before Grenth. Grenth could have made Dhuum and put him in charge of the UW. Then Grenth saw how bad a job he did and took over.

You continue to scrape the outer boundries of the possible to argue against a reasonable interpretation simply because you don't like my methodology.


As for Balthazar and Menzies, QA explained how messed up God genetics are. After all, in the case of Zeus and Athena, the only reason we call Athena his daughter is because we wanted to. Technically she asexually "budded" from Zeus which in Biology results in an identical copy. If god genetics worked in normal terms Zeus and athena would be twins.

If God genetics worked in normal terms, they'd be protozoa. At any rate, you miss the point: In this example, like all the others from Greek mythology, one God exists before the other.


Conversely, the father of balthazar and menzies could have been grenth. or any number of the pantheon.

I suppose this is possible, but wouldn't that be a very large detail for the manuscripts to leave out? Errors of omission are just as bad as errors of comission.


they may have both spontaneously grown from Chaos and Night, like Uranus did for the Romans.

Chaos and Nyx were both themselves Gods. And, while I can find variants where Nyx is the mother of Uranus (though Gaia as mother and wife (ew!) is much more common), I can't find any variants where Chaos has anything to do with the birth of Uranus. Where you perhaps thinking of Erebus instead of Uranus?


They may be half brothers just because we call them that, and may not be genetically so.

Then why "half-brothers"? If we're going to use the convenient-but-inaccurate term to describe whatever potentially bizarre relationship they have, why not "brothers"? I don't buy it. "Half-brothers" means exactly what it says; it has no figurative usage.



You are quicker to belive the manuscripts lie than to belive a random Eternal ghost spirit in the Fissure of Woe lies, or deathly Reapers in the Underworld.

I don't believe either the fictional author of the manuscripts or the "honest" NPC's lie. Neither character is designed to be deceitful. I believe they are both capable of inaccuracy when the stories they tell exceed the character's personal knowledge, and both equally so. In this particular case, I trust the NPC's more than the author of the manuscripts, because the Eternal and the Reaper are in a better position to know.


And that is dangerous in my opinion.

You take the manuscripts as the divine gospel. I take them as a particularly longwinded story from a fictional NPC who's just as reliable as any other in the game world. You may not like that, but that doesn't give you any grounds to go around calling me "dangerous" and demand that I give the manuscripts as much respect as you say I should.


As for the Balthazaar, Menzies thing there's no need for his parents to be part of the elder pantheon. They could have been normal humans with their children risen to godhood.

I suppose that could be possible, but it would make the 5 Gods definitely not the creator Gods of the world or of humans.

Theo Kosyo
02-10-2006, 17:45
Maybe Abaddon is the original god that created the other gods. He intended to use them for further conquest of worlds but they rebelled against him. They trap him in the realm of Torment, later they order the Mursaat to keep the Titans locked up.

Everything goes smooth until Abaddon tries to break out of the realm of Torment and the Bloodstones is scattered around Tyria as a result. With the gods gone from Tyria the Mursaat becomes desperate to keep the Titans at bay and decides to use questionable methods.

There is also the possibility that Abaddon is a manmade god that was spawned from evil desires, hatred, spite and malice. Eventually all the evil generated from Tyria manifested it self as Abaddon.

I believe abaddon is described as a sibling of the gods, so I doubt he created his siblings.

What I could see being possible is that Abaddon, like a GW Prometheus, was the one who granted the world ALL magic, leading to the Guild Wars. Much like his greek counterpart the other gods didn't exactly like this "excessive" generosity which was a bit to much for the races of Tyria and banished Abaddon. Dorik's blood sealed away the masses of magic and the bloodstones, placed into Abaddon's Mouth, sealed Abaddon permanentely... or until he removed the stones from binding him.

The Mursaat, being the powerful and intelligent group they are, probably realised this and went about finding and utilizing the stones, the only thing that kept Abaddon at bay. There is a possibility they didn't even really know of the titans, but that might conflict with certain of QA's ideas that the Mursaat fought the Titans previously. The skull formations in the catacombs can be explained as a corruption from a corrupted bloodstone, which would explain the undead and shadow spawns... but that's purely a theory.

So we kill the Mursaat, or most of them anyway, I still venture as to say there is one last enclave of the race in Janthir. We saw that Mursaat were fighting the Titans through out the Tyrian world after we vanquished them from Abaddon's Mouth, so I doubt they are all dead. Heck maybe I will hope for a Mursaat henchie >.> Say hello to my little friend...

Scutilla
02-10-2006, 18:04
Another interesting thing about the Door of Khomalie and the Mursaat...

I was doing Iron Mines on my assassin last night, and happened to notice something while fighting one of the Jades while in first-person view:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:JadeBow.jpg

(Yeah, it's a GWiki pic- the only shot I thought to snap didn't come out at all.)

The Jade Armors/Bows have six eyes, just like Abaddon (see the first picture in the OP). Additionally, they have some sort of thing going on in the back of the head similar to Abaddon (it's more noticable in this pic:)

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:CairntheDestroyer.jpg

So, were the Jades designed using Abaddon as a model? If so, does this lend credence to the theories of the Mursaat being an enemy or ally/minion of Abaddon? The fact that they were trying to keep the Door of Khomalie closed implies the former, but then why would they create golems in his image?

Ranger Nietzsche
02-10-2006, 19:49
You take the manuscripts as the divine gospel. I take them as a particularly longwinded story from a fictional NPC who's just as reliable as any other in the game world. You may not like that, but that doesn't give you any grounds to go around calling me "dangerous" and demand that I give the manuscripts as much respect as you say I should.


I have grounds to call it dangerous. I explained them. It wasn't a bland ad hominem against you personally, though you seem to be taking our discussion rather so.

Regardless, I am calling your arguments dangerous for a specific reason. It ends the dialogue. Calling our largest source of information suspect to the point of even denying the existance of King Doric or his relation to the bloodstones removes the basis of discussion. The Lore forum is already bogged down with threads based on nothing but speculation and meaningless Fan Fiction disguised as Lore.

Example: I can disprove your theory but all I can do is spout Manuscripts at you. You can disprove my objections but all you can do is spout reaper of the chaos planes + rastigan the eternal at me. We're at cross purposes because we lack a common basis. And so no actual dialogue is taking place.

Now we could start using In game information as the basis rather than the manuscripts, but that shrinks our knowledge base quite a bit.

Quintus Antonius
02-10-2006, 20:40
I don't personally see a conflict with the two sources on the surface. The only way there seems to be a conflict is when coupled with other conjections that aren't necessarily true.

If I'm missing something here, please explain.

The Stiehl
02-10-2006, 21:06
I recall that someone determined that Jades were "grown" on Bloodstones. And if Abaddon corrupted the Bloodstones, maybe the Jades' forms weren't exactly the choice of the Mursaat. So maybe they were using Abaddon's power against him, as it's obvious no matter what form the Jades assume, they are in the sole power of the Mursaat.

Chthon
02-10-2006, 21:19
I have grounds to call it dangerous. I explained them. It wasn't a bland ad hominem against you personally, though you seem to be taking our discussion rather so.

Your responses to me have come off as very little but ad hominems. I recognize that perhaps that was not your intent, though. In any event, they were never "bland."


Regardless, I am calling your arguments dangerous for a specific reason. It ends the dialogue. Calling our largest source of information suspect to the point of even denying the existance of King Doric or his relation to the bloodstones removes the basis of discussion. The Lore forum is already bogged down with threads based on nothing but speculation and meaningless Fan Fiction disguised as Lore.

Example: I can disprove your theory but all I can do is spout Manuscripts at you. You can disprove my objections but all you can do is spout reaper of the chaos planes + rastigan the eternal at me. We're at cross purposes because we lack a common basis. And so no actual dialogue is taking place.

You seem to be caught up on "true" and "false" to the point that you don't recognize that stories (like the manuscripts and the NPC's' chatter) usually fall somewhere between the two. More often than than they are actually "true," stories tend to be "generally true, but full of hyperbole" or "generally true, but inaccurate in the details" or "generally true, but omitted a key fact" or "true regarding fact A, but not regarding fact B" or "mostly made up, but containing an important grain of truth" or "metaphorically true, though literally false" or "teaching important truths, though literally false" etc. Taking a story as a myth does not mean that you discard it altogether; it means you look at the reliability of the chain of storytellers and tenatively place it on the continuum between true and false.

To nitpick a small point: I never claimed that King Doric never existed or that he had nothing to do with the bloodstones. I did claim that (1) the 5 Gods are a younger generation of Gods than those that created the world (and most likely humans too) per the reasoning discussed at length in other posts, and (2) this contradicts their portrayal in the King Doric story as the creator Gods, and (3) this leads me to make the inductive inference that other details of the King Doric story may also be inaccurate, and (4) this plus the trajectory of my (and several other people's) theorizing regarding Abaddon, the Titans, and the Door of Komalie leads me to the conclusion that perhaps the King Doric story's explanation of what exactly the 5 Gods sealed and why they did so may be another inaccurate detail.
Per my theory, I am perfectly able to accept that King Doric lived, that he petitioned the 5 Gods, and that he joined them in a ceremony at the top of the valcano where he sprinkled his blood on the bloodstones. I merely assert that either he was not fully aware of the ceremony's entire purpose and function, or that somewhere along the line between him and the author of the manuscripts the details regarding the purpose and function of the ceremony got altered.


Now we could start using In game information as the basis rather than the manuscripts, but that shrinks our knowledge base quite a bit.

I reject the premise behind this statement. Reclassifying parts of the manuscripts as myths does not remove them from the knowledge base. They remain presumptively reliable, particularly in their "core" assertions. What reclassification as myth does take away is the irrebuttable presumption of literal accuracy, which I don't think was ever justified in the first place -- why, aside from the irrelevant, yet oft-recited fact that they are very big, should we presume the manuscripts are literally accurate in every detail?

I think you place the manuscripts in an unjustifiably preferred position over NPC statements, whereas I consider them equally reliable and equally capable of being inaccurate.

Durza the Shadeking
03-10-2006, 14:35
The problem is Chthon, though NPC staments and the Manuscripts may be false they are all we have. We can't just say "Well, I don't belive this part of the manuscript is true; but If it said what I think, or what I say fits, I'll make those facts become lore!" Yes, your therory behind "the Pantheon being a new generation of gods" may have some truth to it, but, where is the rocksolid evidence for it? The only place is in the game, But you don't trust what the NPCs say, so where are you getting your information?

TimOfDoom
03-10-2006, 16:06
Maybe the Mursaat are Margonites who didn't worship Abbadon but fought him, but were still transformed, so they guard the portal to stop him being freed because they know how evil and powerful he is..
look at the similarities Mursaat (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:MursaatMesmer.jpg)
They wear a mask, so we cant see them, and they have powers and they fly...
similiar
:laugh:
~Doom

Valium in a Hallway
03-10-2006, 16:23
Very interesting!

Chapter 3 might actually wrap the stories together!

Ranger Nietzsche
03-10-2006, 21:22
I put the Manuscripts above in game NPCs because we don't have an author for them.

When a Reaper of teh Chaos planes tells me Grenth overthrew an unjust God, I can see the reaper telling me that. I can assign bias on him that he probably views me as a useless mortal tool and doesn't respect me as such. I can assign him that if Grenth has secrets that the reaper won't tell me them.


The only author in the Manuscripts is Thadeus Lamount - Historian. He is the author of the History of Tyria section.
All other parts of the manuscripts are unsourced.

Who is thadeu lamount? No one knows. He is never mentioned again. All we know is that he is a historian. That means he can be considered unbiased, or at least that he TRIES to be. He is not telling a story or a myth, he is giving an account of the history of his world.

You have no more reason to disbelieve this man than anyone else in game. In fact, you have less. Presumably, as a historian he has nothing to gain or lose through intentional deception, and as a historian he has done research to guard against unintentional deception.

If QA is right, there is no conflict between in game sources and the manuscripts unless you manufacture one through a theory, in which case the theory is a poor one.


I apologize if you take my arguments as ad hominem. For these sorts of discussions I find it hard to make arguments without throwing a bit of sarcastic humor in with them, else they become dry.

Quintus Antonius
03-10-2006, 21:58
We actually have two seperate sources on the history of Tyria, both talking about the same things with very few differences. Loremaster Ermenred, who wrote the lore guide in the Factions Prima guide, is the second historian in question. So here we have two different historians, one Ascalonian, one Krytan with experience in Cantha, writing shockingly similar stories. Ermenred even writes from a different cultural perspectives, using records from the Empire of the Dragon which are intact and extensive, which confirm many of the stories told by Thadeus in the Manuscripts.

We simply cannot throw out the records of two legitamate historians, who's seperate accounts both indicate the same thing, and from different cultural perspectives as well. I feel that Nightfall will further this, with possibly a third historian from Elona.

Yes, things slip through the cracks of history, and not everything is in the Manuscripts. I'm even willing to say that some things are open to interpertation, but I will never conceed that the Manuscripts are wrong unless ANet themselves release documents saying that.

Blazing Liger
04-10-2006, 03:05
The historian's name is Thaddeus LaMount? I did not know that...But actually, he IS mentioned in game. I just did Gates of Kryta with one of my characters and in the bonus, once you bring the book to the historian (I forget his name), he says that it is the Memoirs of Thaddeus LaMount. Since it's such an old book and written in Orrian no less, one could assume that Thaddeus LaMount himself was in fact Orrian. This would make him an even more reliable source as he would have been closer in time to the events he described (if the book is indeed that old).

Ranger Nietzsche
04-10-2006, 06:22
well he speaks of the guild wars...but those lasted quite a while

Loremaster Ermenred is in game. I didn't know he wrote the manuscripts for cantha...cool.

ps you can find him in LA

terakhan
02-11-2006, 06:17
Just throwing this out there: What if the faces in the catacombs are there because Abaddon used them to reach the charr? One of the quests talks about a charr being down there, and the last person you ask about it is a necromancer hanging out very close to those faces.

We have surmised that the Charr worshipped the Titans and some believe Abaddon created the titans. What if the charr got their searing magic directly from the god's stone mouth?

Longasc
02-11-2006, 06:53
Terakhan, play a bit on, Nightfall will answer your speculations (almost) fully.

Sum Kinda Monster
02-11-2006, 07:23
Please note: This article may contain spoilers related to the storylines of Prophcies and Nightfall.






Recently, while doing the Abaddon's Mouth mission in the Ring of Fire Islands, I couldn't help but take note some shocking finds that seem to suggest the prescence of a certain fallen god.

Obviously, the name Abaddon's Mouth seems to imply that Abaddon has some tie to the region, but it has been argued that the name alone is very circumstancial evidence.

However, I believe I have found evidence to show that Abaddon does indeed have ties to the area, and that the Door of Komalie may feed directly into the Realm of Torment.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3421/abaddonrofvr2.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abaddonrofvr2.jpg)

Here I have complied several screenshots and featured the concept art of Abaddon along with them. Take note of the similarities marked.

Also, keep in mind that the Art of Guild Wars bonus concept art book describes Abaddon's Mouth as being a volcano posessed by evil, which causes the lavaflows to harden into disjointed evil faces.

On the surface, it seems that this posession is simply alluding to the Titans, and until Nightfall, it could probably be reasonable to assume this meaning. However, I believe the evidence I am providing shows that this posession is in fact Abaddon.

One discrepancy I noticed, and took note of, was that, while Abaddon is shown with six eyes, the formations only have two. I have no explanation for this. Perhaps the visages are not Abaddon's, but only influenced by him.

I also believe that the Door of Komalie may lead directly to the Realm of Torment where Abaddon is being held. From what we know of Nightfall, Abaddon is described as being "sealed" or "imprisoned" in the Realm of Torment. "Sealed" or "imprisoned" are logical words one could use to describe being trapped behind the door. Also, the Guardians that emerge when the ether seals are broken and the door opens temporarily are "corrupted" as the ghostly Jacob tells us. They were driven mad, while some, as himself, were pure of heart enough to remain. This seems to suggest that after being inserted into the soul batteries, the Chosen souls enter the realm of Torment.

Furthermore, concepts for the Realm of Torment show the landscape made out of faces and other body parts, similar to the Ring of Fire lava formations, only made of flesh instead of pumice. Another clue is the prescence of the anatomical oddies known as flesh golems (fire golems in Cantha).

My final piece of evidence comes in the form of a screenshot. When I noticed the swirling shapes behind the Door of Komalie, something very obvious stood out to me--they had a shape.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5555/abaddondoorhd0.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abaddondoorhd0.jpg)

Yes, I believe that what we are seeing here is in fact the form of Abaddon in the fire behind the Door. Note the features I have highlighted. Also note how the portal from which the souls are escaping bears a strong resemblence to the chaos portals seen at the Dragon Festival and the Tomb of Primeval Kings.

One or two of these things alone might be dismissed, but all of them together, further coupled with the name "Abaddon's Mouth" seem to strongly suggest that Abaddon is in fact trapped behind the Door of Komalie.

I would theorize that because the Chosen stopped the Lich before he could adequetly finish his summoning of the Titans, Abaddon was not able to use the Door as a means of escape. However, enough of his essence was able to escape, possibly in the form of the spirits we see emenating from the portals, that he has been able to re-establish himself as a upcoming force, which we will see in Nightfall.

Excellent work Quintus. Having beaten Nightfall I think I can help you clear up and confirm a few of your theorys.



************SPOILER ALERT**************









You are absolutely correct on almost everything. I'm pretty sure the reason for the faces in the lava having only two eyes is because they are the faces of the Margonites, the ancient race who worshiped and reveared Abaddon.

Yes- Abaddon was "imprisoned" and "sealed" in the Realm of Torment.
Yes- The Door of Komalie is a gateway to the Realm of Torment.
Yes- The chosen souls remained in the Realm of Torment, both pure of hearts and the mad.
Yes- The images you see are of him. He has six eyes and a couple sets of mandibles. In the pictures we see of him he has a helmet or a face plate on. When you meet face-to-face he does not have this mask on. All the black tenticles you see in such places as the Ruins of Tomb of Primevil Kings or the Underworld are from him, actually his head and shoulders. I think he is the brother of Balthazar and is the one who was causing havoc in the Fissure of Woe. Also the drawings of him are to scale!

Your last paragraph is incorrect on all parts. The Nightfall storyline does an excellent job of explaining the who, what, when, where, and why of Abaddon's influence.

Good detective work!

Quintus Antonius
02-11-2006, 13:19
Actually, Nightfall explains the Menzies, Dhuum, and Abaddon are three seperate entites that are working together against the established pantheon.

Ranger Nietzsche
03-11-2006, 01:45
yes...and i dont recall it directly saying he was imprisoned in the volcano

Laibeus Lord
04-11-2006, 08:38
Well Charr was typical of the "Orcs".

Yes, I'm serious, there are many aspects of GW that were obviously "Warcraft" based. But I won't discuss that.

----
Abaddon is a brother of the Five gods.

----

The Door of Komalie is one entrance to RoT.
I don't know how many remembers, but during closed beta of GW, the RoT was already available, then it was pulled out. I was looking for it when Prophecies went out, but I figured they will save RoT for a future Campaign, and so here it is - Nightfall.

---

End.

Impure
14-11-2006, 04:21
Well Charr was typical of the "Orcs".

Yes, I'm serious, there are many aspects of Warcraft that were obviously "Warhammer" based. But I won't discuss that.

---

End.

Fixed :soapbox: :tongue:
sorry had to be a bit snarky there

Quintus Antonius
14-11-2006, 05:07
You added nothing to the conversation. Please refrain from "being snarky" in the future, thank you.

Chthon
20-11-2006, 01:05
I would just like to point out, for those who called me "dangerous" to the lore forum, that the release of NF shows I was a hell of a lot closer to right than wrong:


snip

I was right that the King Doric Story would be retconned. It wasn't modified in quite the way I expected, but it was modified. In light of the number of rather personal attacks directed at me for saying the old version was not the literal "truth," I feel rather vindicated by the fact that it got changed.

I was right about the Door of Komalie leading to the prison realm (then again, so was most everyone else).

I was right about the titans and the grasps in the ruins of the tombs and close on the demons infesting the underworld and Kanaxie (connected to, but not actually from, the Realm of Torment).

I was right about Shiro misusing souls to somehow benefit the dark god.

I was unwilling to go as far as others in saying that the Dwayna pantheon were originally humans, but I should have, since I now believe they were right. NF shows us the transformation of a human into a god and tells us that it's happened before (something to the effect of "that's a feat that hasn't happened since ancient times"), presumably referring to the Dwayna pantheon. (That would, of course, prove my position that they are not the creator gods.)

In short, maybe some certain people here should be a little bit slower to attack a person whenever they use a different methodology, because sometimes that person's predictions turn out to be pretty accurate after all.

Quintus Antonius
20-11-2006, 04:51
It didn't change at all. They just said why humans were in trouble. The story in the original Manuscripts is still exactly the same, they just filled in the blanks of why.

Chthon
20-11-2006, 16:58
It didn't change at all.

Really?

Original Story: "[T]he gods [referring to Dwayna, Balthazar, Grenth, Lyssa, and Melandru] never halted their work creating the world, and with the benevolence of indulgent parents, they decided to create magic.... When they had finished their gift, they [again referring to Dwayna, Balthazar, Grenth, Lyssa, and Melandru] presented it to the humans and the Charr, the Tengu and the dwarves, the minotaurs and the imps, and all the races of the land."

New Story: The gods decided to give the gift of magic and Abbadon presented it to the Charr, Tengu Dwarves, etc.

Original Story: "But the gods had not counted upon one thing—greed." (ie The gods' initial intent was to give the generous gift of all magic that got given, but it was a mistake.)

New Story: But the gods had not counted upon one thing — that Abaddon would screw it up. (ie The other gods intended a more limited gift, like the state of affairs post-bloodstones (they made no mistake of judgment), but Abaddon gave the generous gift instead.)
(Alternatively, if you want to give Abaddon the benefit of the doubt: But the other gods had not counted upon one thing — that Abbadon had not counted upon one thing -- greed.)

Original Story: "The gods heard [King Doric's] pleas, and they intervened."

New Story: Some of the gods, namely Dwayna, Balthazar, Grenth, Lyssa, and Melandru, heard King Doric's pleas and intervened, greatly to the displeasure of the other god Abaddon.

Original Story: "The forging of the world was complete. As their final act, the gods gathered back their gift of magic from all the races and trapped it inside a tall stone..."

New Story: The forging of the world was not complete. After the act of the bloodstone ceremony, which was not their final one, Dwayna, Balthazar, Grenth, Lyssa, Melandru, and their followers went on to fight a war against Abaddon and his followers and to forge the walls of his prison, such as the Door of Komalie, to keep him from returning to this world.
(I might add that the NF plot hints that Dwayna, Balthazar, Grenth, Lyssa, and Melandru were once human, and therefore didn't start the project of forging the world in the first place.)

Original Story: "Things were good for a time. No one race gained dominance over any other, and the world was once again at peace."

New Story: Things immediately went bad. Abaddon was enraged that the gift of magic had been reduced and started a war to overthrow the other gods. Powered by Abaddon's gifts, the Margonites gained dominance over the other races and were only defeated by the combined forces of five other gods and their followers. The world would not be at peace again until this war was ended.

How can you not call that a retcon?

Quintus Antonius
20-11-2006, 19:19
Because you are changing the story, not them. You are inserting your opinion on context in places where no context is presented. It says the gods, it does NOT list specific gods, and Abaddon would have been considered part of this "gods" plural term. Not mentioning something, is not retconing. All that it means is the Thaddeus LaMount didn't have the entire story. Keeping in mind that all knowledge of Abaddon was wiped from existance. The two stories complement each other, they don't contradict each other.

Chthon
20-11-2006, 21:56
B All that it means is the Thaddeus LaMount didn't have the entire story.

What have I been saying all along? When I say that, I get labeled "dangerous," but when you say it somehow it was always perfactly obvious and somehow I'm totally wrong yet again?!

You folks here tore me a new one for even suggesting that the story wasn't literally accurate. But when I point out that NF proves it wasn't literally accurate, you tell me that "of course the story wasn't accurate, but that doesn't mean it's been changed."

I don't care how you try to spin it, there's no way that you can tell me with a straight face that the old King Doric story is literally true:

Original Story: "Things were good for a time. No one race gained dominance over any other, and the world was once again at peace."

New Story: Things immediately went bad. Abaddon was enraged that the gift of magic had been reduced and started a war to overthrow the other gods. Powered by Abaddon's gifts, the Margonites gained dominance over the other races and were only defeated by the combined forces of five other gods and their followers. The world would not be at peace again until this war was ended.

Either you can say that the original storyteller didn't know the whole story, WHICH IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG, or you can say that the devs changed the story.

Quintus Antonius
20-11-2006, 22:01
No, Chthon, you have been saying that the Manuscripts are 100% inaccurate, and that we should just make up our own histories to suit our own theories, which is why people were calling it dangerous. We are saying that the historian was not aware of information, not that his information is wrong. The information he has is right, it is just that there is more information that is also right. New information does not negate the old information.

Chthon
20-11-2006, 23:16
No, Chthon, you have been saying that the Manuscripts are 100% inaccurate

Please, go back and show me one place where I said the manuscrripts are 100% inaccurate.

Here?

I am NOT throwing the manuscripts out the window; I'm merely recognizing the possibility that they reflect the beliefs of the fictional person who wrote them down, which may or may not coincide with the "objective" truth. I see their place in bigger picture of the GW story as myths which were written down and perpetuated by human scribes of great, but limited knowledge several generations after the fact.

How about here?

I don't believe either the fictional author of the manuscripts or the "honest" NPC's lie. Neither character is designed to be deceitful. I believe they are both capable of inaccuracy when the stories they tell exceed the character's personal knowledge, and both equally so.

Maybe here?

I never claimed that King Doric never existed or that he had nothing to do with the bloodstones. [Points discussed in other posts lead] me to the conclusion that perhaps the King Doric story's explanation of what exactly the 5 Gods sealed and why they did so may be [an] inaccurate detail.
Per my theory, I am perfectly able to accept that King Doric lived, that he petitioned the 5 Gods, and that he joined them in a ceremony at the top of the valcano where he sprinkled his blood on the bloodstones. I merely assert that either he was not fully aware of the ceremony's entire purpose and function, or that somewhere along the line between him and the author of the manuscripts the details regarding the purpose and function of the ceremony got altered.


We are saying that the historian was not aware of information, not that his information is wrong. The information he has is right, it is just that there is more information that is also right. New information does not negate the old information.

First, you have not been saying that the historian was not unaware of information - at least not until AFTER nightfall and AFTER I got criticized to hell and back for saying exactly that. I go back through this thread and see nothing but opposition to the possibility that the author of the manuscripts might have had incomplete and/or inaccurate information. Show me a post to the contrary if there is one.

Second, the new information DOES negate the old information. They're not way off, but the manuscripts do contain some statements that NF renders literally false. After what we learn in NF, it's flat out inaccurate that, after the bloodstone ceremony, "things were good for a time. No one race gained dominance over any other, and the world was once again at peace." There wasn't peace, there was war. It's also flat out inaccurate that "The gods had not counted upon one thing—greed. [Next paragraph describing effects of greed by the sentient races relating to the unrestrained gift of all magic]" NF makes it clear that Abaddon was the only god who ever intended to give the unrestrained gift of all magic. It's clear the other gods made a mistake in trusting Abaddon, but they did not make the mistake of intending to give a unrestrained gift that stirred up human (and tengu etc) greed.

Now, the fact that the new information does negate a small portion of the old information means very little; It's a very small step from (finally) admitting that the author of the manuscripts had incomplete knowledge to admitting he also had slightly inaccurate knowledge.

Third, I totally agree with you that viewing the author of the manuscripts as a storyteller with imperfect information is the way to reconcile the new story with the old one. What I'm pissed off about is the way I was treated back when I suggested this in the first place, and the way I'm being treated now for pointing out that the way to reconcile the new story with the old one is what I said back then.

Durza the Shadeking
21-11-2006, 01:50
Second, the new information DOES negate the old information. They're not way off, but the manuscripts do contain some statements that NF renders literally false. After what we learn in NF, it's flat out inaccurate that, after the bloodstone ceremony, "things were good for a time. No one race gained dominance over any other, and the world was once again at peace." There wasn't peace, there was war. It's also flat out inaccurate that "The gods had not counted upon one thing—greed. [Next paragraph describing effects of greed by the sentient races relating to the unrestrained gift of all magic]" NF makes it clear that Abaddon was the only god who ever intended to give the unrestrained gift of all magic. It's clear the other gods made a mistake in trusting Abaddon, but they did not make the mistake of intending to give a unrestrained gift that stirred up human (and tengu etc) greed.

Hey, that could be right...Hey wait. The war with Abbadon happened before the sealing of the bloodstones. It either ended a few months before exodous and blood stones(it started 1 BE) or finished with the creation of the Bloodstones to keep Abbadon in check for awhile.

The Abbadon War was probably made up of, for the most part, the sentinent races useing magic on eachother leaving room for, what do you know, chaos and destruction. Sounds like something Abbadon might like, no? As for humans in this conflict, it showed that they were the ones dieing more (thus starting the need for King Doric's journey)

Then sbout 1000 years later the bloodstone are released into the world and greed causes the Guild Wars (1013 AE-1072 AE) and most likely enabled Abbadon to control Shiro via Fortuneteller.


Now, the fact that the new information does negate a small portion of the old information means very little; It's a very small step from (finally) admitting that the author of the manuscripts had incomplete knowledge to admitting he also had slightly inaccurate knowledge.


While he did have incomplete knowledge, what he had was accurate. Where are you seeing differences. We are getting the "Whys" of the story not a brand new version that cancels out the other .


Third, I totally agree with you that viewing the author of the manuscripts as a storyteller with imperfect information is the way to reconcile the new story with the old one. What I'm pissed off about is the way I was treated back when I suggested this in the first place, and the way I'm being treated now for pointing out that the way to reconcile the new story with the old one is what I said back then.

There was no "imperfect" infromation, just lack of explanation. It told us what happened, just not who started the conflict, why they started it, and how they did it.

Orick Vox
Officer of [BaR]

Quintus Antonius
21-11-2006, 02:05
This is how it's going to be. You have every right to say what you think. You can even go back and take things people said and say "Look you are wrong, here's why..." and then use concrete examples and evidence to prove them wrong. But coming here with a condescending "I told you so" attitude is not good. I respect what you have to say, but I do not respect the way you are trying to say it. I'd hate to see people start flaming and then I'd have to start banning.

Magnus Khaine
21-11-2006, 03:20
The "swirling shapes" look nothing like Abaddon and vaguely resemble him :/

Chthon
21-11-2006, 03:36
Hey, that could be right...Hey wait. The war with Abbadon happened before the sealing of the bloodstones. It either ended a few months before exodous and blood stones(it started 1 BE) or finished with the creation of the Bloodstones to keep Abbadon in check for awhile.

I'm pretty sure that Abaddon did not attempt to overthrow the other 5 gods until immediately after they created the bloodstones. See PanSola's translation of this offical Taiwanese page (http://guildwars.nctaiwan.com/gameInfo/intro_03.asp) on the talk page for the Abaddon article on the wiki which shall not be named.
Thus war immediately followed the bloodstone ritual, not peace. Thus that one sentence in the original story as told by Thaddeus is indeed literally false.

(Because people always seem to accuse me of 100% disregarding the whole of the lore whenever I question any part of it, let me say I'M NOT -- I am merely pointing out that Thaddeus made at least one small error because his knowledge was incomplete and, in some small cases, inaccurate. And, methodologically, I'm saying that it shouldn't be taboo to consider the possibility that Thaddeus or an in-game NPC has made such an error, if the weight of logic, common sense, and other evidence point in that direction. Contrapostively, it's foolish, in my view, to insist that Thaddeus, or another NPC (in-game or out) is 100% accurate against the weight of logic, common sense, and other evidence (I'm specifically thinking of the ridiculous-sounding argument that "Balthazar and Menzies are half-brothers, but have no parents.").)



This is how it's going to be. You have every right to say what you think. You can even go back and take things people said and say "Look you are wrong, here's why..." and then use concrete examples and evidence to prove them wrong. But coming here with a condescending "I told you so" attitude is not good. I respect what you have to say, but I do not respect the way you are trying to say it. I'd hate to see people start flaming and then I'd have to start banning.

Giving the amount of hostility I encountered the last time I poked my head into this forum, I'd say my "I told you so" attitude has been downright civil by comparison. I think NF showed my conclusions were pretty close to how things actually turned out, and I think that validates my methodology. And I think that's plain enough that I don't need to make any further posts to prove the point. I also think that your perception of what my posts say is seriously colored by your perception of me as some sort of dangerous lore forum heretic. Your eyes have been going over the text, but you haven't reading what I have been saying. I suggest that you go back and try to read them again with as little bias as you can manage - you may find that they are somewhat as close to the mark as I claim they are. Finally, there's no need to go thumping your ban stick at me; I can understand when I'm not welcome, and so I will be leaving the lore forum again for the foreseeable future.

MStarfire
21-11-2006, 03:40
What would be totally fantastic is if, in the same way that the desert teleporter can link us to the Desolation, the Door of Komalie would link us to the RoT.

But I can't help but think that the screen of the door with Abaddon behind it is stretching it just a little. It's REALLY sketchy, and you really need to look for it and use your imagination.

Rob Van Der Sloot
21-11-2006, 12:13
I agree as far as the tentacles, and twisted faces in the rocks are concerned. The shape in the flames however is a bit far-fetched, and could just aswell be one of the many floating souls keeping the door closed.

Remember the rivers of souls in the Realm of Torment? Those souls have an identical shape. Which would mean that what you describe to be wings, are in fact their ghostly hands.

The Realm of Torment is a complex and dangerous area. But I wonder if anyone could find more direct links inside the realm to confirm these theories. Is there a place where the souls directly flow into the Realm of Torment, or out of it for that matter?

lynx raven raide
02-12-2006, 01:50
in defence of Chthon, the manuscripts get 'updated' every chapter, with information getting changed or embelished. they are really a 2 sided blade: on one side, we have the fact that whilst Tyria, Cantha and Elona have known about and interacted with each other for a long time, the way they keep on being presented is as though they are being discovered for the first time. whilst this is true from a personal point of view, it isnt from a historical, so it is hard when you read through and find information that should have been mentioned earlier. the other side of the blade is that the manuscripts are all we got. whilst they are not 100% accurate, they are not 100% inaccurate either, just they are what the respective authors have studied and found out. a simple explination for similar stuff being seen in both the Prophecies and Factions manuscripts maybe the 2 of them met and compared notes (unlikely since LaMount was Orrian and probably died in the destruction of Orr) or the author of the Factions Manuscripts found LaMount's records and meshed it with their own Canthean records (since it has been said the guy has been to LA and is even in there in game).

on a side thing, Chthon has not said anywhere that the manuscripts are rubbish and 100% inaccurate, just that the stories could have changed after passing from person to person to the final author, and those actually involved could have embelished to make their role seem greater, or not what it was. the only ones that would really know the truth would be Dwyna, Grenth, Balthazar, Lyssa and Melandru, but i doubt any of them would give the truth, or at least not without making it being biased. that being said, the flaming has actually gone both ways so Chthon has not been 100% innocent, though he has copped a lot here without intervention.

Shi Violet
02-12-2006, 02:38
However, I believe I have found evidence to show that Abaddon does indeed have ties to the area, and that the Door of Komalie may feed directly into the Realm of Torment.



In the Gate of Anguish, Aurus Trevess, the gatekeeper for the Foundry, has this to say:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k279/Shi-Violet/khomali.jpg

Just adding some evidence for your theory! (I appologize, I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread, but the OP is quite interesting)

Seyfert
02-12-2006, 03:13
interesting find

Gmr Leon
02-12-2006, 20:26
So The Fury was a minion of Dhuum and wasn't a one-time deal character. It should be interesting to learn more of this..

Quintus Antonius
02-12-2006, 20:51
Is it just me or does it honestly look like Dhuum was pulling all the strings all along? Just like we originally said before we knew about Abaddon.

Gmr Leon
02-12-2006, 21:16
It would make sense.

Dhuum causes chaos in the Underworld so it's a pain in the neck situation for Grenth. His Reapers are locked up. Souls are going all over the place and being captured by Dhuum. The souls are then being used to help hasten the release of Abaddon. Abaddon's release stirs up a bunch of turmoil.

All of this while Dhuum is in the background doing this and that. Also,as we all know,turmoil creates great paths to causing even more hell to break loose. Obviously Dhuum is taking that great path..

lynx raven raide
02-12-2006, 22:10
actually looking at it, it seems more plausable that Dhuum, who is free, would be better to co-ordinate everything that Abbadan who is trapped. also it would seem more feasable that trying to release Abbadan would be a part of Dhumms scheme that Abbadan. what better way to get support than to recruit the enemy of your enemy?

Quintus Antonius
02-12-2006, 23:41
But at one time, it was likely Abaddon was Dhuum's enemy, as Grenth usurped Dhuum while Abaddon was a legitamate part of the Pantheon. It seems to me that Dhuum and Menzies have more to gain than Abaddon. Abaddon's motivation seems purely revenge, while Dhuum and Menzies are actively plotting for "something", we don't really know what. Abaddon wouldn't have been able to do a damn thing without Menzies and Dhuum's support, that much is for sure. I rather suspect Abaddon was Iran, while Menzies and Dhuum are Russia and China, pulling all the strings behind the scenes because they all have an equal hatred of the US (or the Pantheon in the case of the Dark Trimuvirate of Abadhuumenzies).

Nanashi
03-12-2006, 00:06
But at one time, it was likely Abaddon was Dhuum's enemy, as Grenth usurped Dhuum while Abaddon was a legitamate part of the Pantheon. It seems to me that Dhuum and Menzies have more to gain than Abaddon. Abaddon's motivation seems purely revenge, while Dhuum and Menzies are actively plotting for "something", we don't really know what. Abaddon wouldn't have been able to do a damn thing without Menzies and Dhuum's support, that much is for sure. I rather suspect Abaddon was Iran, while Menzies and Dhuum are Russia and China, pulling all the strings behind the scenes because they all have an equal hatred of the US (or the Pantheon in the case of the Dark Trimuvirate of Abadhuumenzies).

Exactly. Think the cold war. That's exactly how it's sounding.

Something, whatever Dhuum is after, is being guarded and by releasing Abaddon they could of disrupted the balance giving Dhuum the chance to sneak on by and continue with what he's doing. Finish that and if Abaddon became a nuscence, he could be taken care of.

Quintus Antonius
03-12-2006, 05:32
Another comparison, along the lines of the Cold War seems to be Vietnam. Many MiG pilots were Chinese or Russians, and most of their forces were being supplied by fellow communist nations. It really does seem like Menzies and Dhuum are China and Russia, while Abaddon is an insignificant North Korean or Vietnam.

Gmr Leon
03-12-2006, 05:55
I was thinking of it in the sense of how old Castro came to power in Cuba myself. All sorts of turmoil was happening there at the time giving Castro a wide open path to stand on top. Seems like something both Dhuum and Menzies would like to do.

Troal
13-05-2007, 08:50
Well, I was thinking about those faces in the Ring of Fire, and I think I may have found something. While I don't know exactly how much influence Abaddon exerted over the islands, I think that Rodgort, the dragon for whom two fire elementalist skills are named after, did have some influence there.

One particular face is featured in rock formations on the islands above all others. It can easily be seen behind the skill trainer in Ember Light Camp. Although Rodgort bares a loose resemblance to this face, I do believe the similarities merit consideration.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j76/mauvaise/Rodgort.jpg

Note the horns on each face. The number of them is the same, and their positions are relatively similar. Also note the upturned nose which appears to be present as well in the skill icon for Rodgort's Invocation. Pillars in Ascalon seem to confirm Rodgort was a dragon, and having fire skills named after him implies he was also able to breathe/conjure fire. The Ring of Fire would have been an ideal land for Rodgort to construct a lair long ago - and don't forget to notice that the Ring of Fire face in the above screenshot is spewing fire, like I would expect Rodgort to do.

While the face found in the Ring of Fire bears little resemblance to the face of the dragon carved upon the Ascalonian pillars (see the 'Who was Wastrel thread?' for pics), the same can be said of the face depicted on the skill icon for Rodgort's Invocation. Either (a) this face belongs to Rodgort, and the pillar carving is a somewhat inaccurate depiction, or (b) this face does not belong to Rodgort, but is closely associated with him as it is featured in his skill. Either way, the pictured face bears little to no resemblance with any creatures we've seen in the past, to my memory, and it is featured enough that I would expect it to be the face of a very powerful/important, and malevolent, being.

I think this may be the face of the Great Destroyer. And I think the Great Destroyer may in fact be the dragon we know as Rodgort.

Nanashi
13-05-2007, 09:39
I think this may be the face of the Great Destroyer. And I think the Great Destroyer may in fact be the dragon we know as Rodgort.

I was going to think the same thing, that perhaps this will be the boss. What better way to end the trillogy than to face off against one of the most popular and powerful types of foe every created in a fantasy. In Fable a similar thing happened but there were no similarities, it just happened to be a dragon as the final boss.

That being said though... I suppose the Ring of Fire could be considered destroyed, do to the constant eruptions that spew molten rock and the volcano itself exploding.

The problem is the Stone summit worshiped or at least looked up to the Great Destroyer? Thinking Lord Of The Rings, perhaps it's a spoof of the Bellrock? And earth quakes do take place during an eruption, perhaps the volcano itself is his jail and by us intervening with the Prophecies, maybe we broke it somehow.

But I have to disagree with Rodgert being the Great Destroyer. Menzies just seems the most possible suspect. We know he's been battling with Balthazar through his forces, he was aiding Abaddon... but could Rodgert be Menzie's loyal servant as perhaps Mallyx was to Abaddon? Maybe, being half human, Menzies would ride Rodgert into battle? :rolleyes:

dcxvi
13-05-2007, 11:04
rodgort = trogdor
the burninator

a reference of course to trogdor, something tells me that rodgort is not the great destroyer :smiley:

Sir Jack
13-05-2007, 11:27
@Nanashi and Troal:

There is a serious line to cross between making a spoof of something in an online game (naming skills after an internet cartoon character's name reversed) and making it the/a main villain for closing your game franchise. There's still copyright issues involved, and seeing as how ANet calling it the name in reverse + Dragon is already pretty much pushing it if they made him a boss somewhere, they'd have to work out quite a few legal issues if they are to make a (part of) storyline revolve around him.

With that said, Rodgort's Invocation could be from a demon/Great Destroyer invocing Rodgort's burnanative powers at said location, and Anet making Rodgort into a sub-boss somewhere in GW:EN, with little relevance to the actual storyline but more as a sidequest (see: Drakes on a Plain).

Nanashi
13-05-2007, 12:54
@Nanashi and Troal:

There is a serious line to cross between making a spoof of something in an online game (naming skills after an internet cartoon character's name reversed) and making it the/a main villain for closing your game franchise. There's still copyright issues involved, and seeing as how ANet calling it the name in reverse + Dragon is already pretty much pushing it if they made him a boss somewhere, they'd have to work out quite a few legal issues if they are to make a (part of) storyline revolve around him.


No I'm aware of that. Jack of Blades was different. Originally human who found some form of dark power that caused him to leach on and on until finally beyond the Bronze Gate he was in his final form. Yada Yada.

The Bell Rock was in the first book of LoTR, which was the firey brimstone creature that the Dwarves found when they dug too deep into the earth. While it could seem that the stone summit find something like that, they're more like worshiping it while the Dwarves were killed off in Tolken's story.

Anyways, I was just stating that dragons themselves are some of the most powerful and common foes. However, Roggy being the main baddy is questionable. We don't know enough about Rog besides the fact that he has two skills named after him.



Speaking of my bogus imagination depicting Rodgort as Menzie's mount... perhaps Glint could be Balthazars' :grin:

Speaking of which, could this possibly mean Rodgort is the father of Glint's eggs? Coincidence that Glint leads us to a place where maybe another dragon ruled it? Very very curious, hmmm

Sir Jack
13-05-2007, 13:49
No I'm aware of that. Jack of Blades was different. Originally human who found some form of dark power that caused him to leach on and on until finally beyond the Bronze Gate he was in his final form. Yada Yada.


k...
*googles Jack of Blades*
k...
I was refering to the name Rodgort, if Anet stole Fable's plot on top of it, they'd have some serious lawsuits on their hands.


The Bell Rock was in the first book of LoTR, which was the firey brimstone creature that the Dwarves found when they dug too deep into the earth. While it could seem that the stone summit find something like that, they're more like worshiping it while the Dwarves were killed off in Tolken's story.

A Balrog isn't a Dragon, it's exact position would be one of the Maiar of Fire, with Maiar being the equivalent of demi-gods. They rallied with Melkor, evil Valar (= God) against the other Valar. The fun thing about them is they can't be killed by weaker creatures, only 2 Balrogs ever fall at the hands of Elves, and in both cases, the Elves died as well.
Now, in Tolkien's story, the Balrog were all killed save a few during the War of Wrath (final battle between other Valar and Melkor). Those that survived fled and hid themselves in the bowels of the earth. This is at the end of the First Age. In the year 1980 of the Third Age, the Dwarves of Moria dug up the Balrog, who killed most of them. The survivors fled leaving Moria to the Balrog, though no one knew what the Dwarves dug up, and called it "Nameless Terror". Balin tried to colonise Moria again in 2989 but fell later, the Fellowship arrives in 3019.

Interesting to note is that -like Balrogs- Dragons apparently can't be killed by an "inferior" species. Even when doing the bonus, Glint at the most is merely wounded and needs recovery from her wounds, as she's still alive to tell us what to do at the end of Hell's and to give us the Titan Quests.


Speaking of which, could this possibly mean Rodgort is the father of Glint's eggs? Coincidence that Glint leads us to a place where maybe another dragon ruled it? Very very curious, hmmm

Possibly, but I highly doubt the RoF is Rodgort's Lair. East of Ascalon seems more likely, since it's also destroyed and it's Ascalonians that have pics of him.


An interesting note should be that RoF was called Komalie's Rest in beta stages, which could indicate that Komalie was some kind of wizard (good/evil) who corrupted the place. With the similarities between RI and the skulls, one could think that Komalie was a Demon, who had forged a Door from the RoT to the Mortal Realm, maybe in the service of Abaddon. His door was shut by the Gods and the Bloodstones -Abaddon's "gift" of magic- were now used to keep it shut, with the Mursaat guarding it. It could also indicate that the Dragons fought alongside Abaddon in the Battle of the Gods, and most of them were killed, others fled, and at least one was caught (Glint). She could then have offered her powers of foresight in exchange for her life, and thus be set in capticity instead of being dead. It could be she did this because she knew that she and Rodgort are the only ones left alive, or at the least she being the only female left alive, thus guaranteing her species would at least have a chance of survival.

Of course, the last is only a hypothesis with very little actual evidence to back it up.

Santax
13-05-2007, 16:16
k...
*googles Jack of Blades*
k...
Jack of Blades was a dragon in Fable that was sealed inside a mask, the wearer of which was possessed by his spirit and would attempt to conquer Albion. After Jack is defeated in his human form, the player must defeat him in Fable: The Lost Chapters. In Fable there are few, if any dragons left - they were wiped out by humanity and retreated to the Northern Wastes.


Interesting to note is that -like Balrogs- Dragons apparently can't be killed by an "inferior" species. Even when doing the bonus, Glint at the most is merely wounded and needs recovery from her wounds, as she's still alive to tell us what to do at the end of Hell's and to give us the Titan Quests.
Perhaps they are just very resilient. Saltspray Dragons and Drakes can die. But it is interesting that she has eggs - where are they from, when will they hatch? Glint was summoned to Tyria by the gods, from across the Mists. Glint and her Forgotten servants were originally a product of another pantheon, as Tyria is the first world created by the Gods of Tyria, and Glint and her guardians were "summoned to" Tyria as opposed to "birthed upon" it, like the humans. Wherever she comes from there must be an entire race of dragons, and seeing as we will get more exploration of the Mists in GW2 (massive World PvP battlegrounds instead of just the path to the Hall of Heroes and the Realms of the Gods).


An interesting note should be that RoF was called Komalie's Rest in beta stages, which could indicate that Komalie was some kind of wizard (good/evil) who corrupted the place. With the similarities between RI and the skulls, one could think that Komalie was a Demon, who had forged a Door from the RoT to the Mortal Realm, maybe in the service of Abaddon. His door was shut by the Gods and the Bloodstones -Abaddon's "gift" of magic- were now used to keep it shut, with the Mursaat guarding it.
It is interesting that Komalie's Rest was named so, perhaps Komalie was a mage lord or more likely, a servant of Abaddon, as it serves as a gateway into his realm. Or maybe, taking it a step further, all Mage Lords were servants of Abaddon - Lord Komalie, Lord Jadoth, Lord Odran, Lord Sybitha, Lord Kree - all have once done something that has left a permanent, damaging Tyria for good. It is also important to remember that Varesh wasn't insane - she wanted to achieve something through bringing about Nightfall, but all is known of her motive is that General Kahyet will have informed her of the rewards of Nightfall. Maybe Varesh, by destroying Elona, would be immortalised as the newest Mage Lord.

The Ring of Fire Island Chain appears to have once held settlements and trees, the charred husks of which remain there to this day. It also seems to be the source of the purple Jade that the Mursaat used to make their fortresses. Perhaps the gods activated the volcanoes to destroy Abaddon's supporters. Although it is strange that Abaddon would have his own region to himself, while the rest of the gods had Arah, not to mention his Margonite followers on the Crystal Sea. The timeline would look something like this:
1769BE - Glint and Forgotten are summoned to Tyria from across the Mists by the Old Gods.
205BE - Humanity arrives in Tyria and Elona.
?BE - Abaddon's followers establish primitive settlements on the Ring of Fire Island Chain (then presumably named something else).
175BE - Margonites settle in Kourna and sail upon the Crystal Sea (including the land now known as the Desolation) and the Unending Ocean.
?BE - Lord Komalie opens his door to the Realm of Torment.
1BE - Abaddon gives magic to the races of Tyria, messes it up and the war of the gods begins.
1BE - Abaddon defeats two of the gods (possibly Lyssa and Grenth or two other unnamed gods).
1BE - Jadoth becomes the first true Margonite and a Mage Lord.
1BE - Abaddon's settlers are destroyed, along with their home.
Year 0 - Abaddon is struck down, his monuments defiled, his Sea turned into a Desert and his realm sealed off.
Year 0 - The Bloodstones are formed to control the gift of magic, and the gods leave Tyria, leaving behind from their battle only devastation and no recollection to the people of the world.
2AE - Orr and subsequently Arah, the abandoned city of the gods, becomes an independent nation.
29AE - Primeval Kings and the nation of Elona spreads out into the Crystal Desert.
174AE - The Forgotten leave the rest of Tyria and seek refuge in the Crystal Desert.
272AE - Glint compiles the Flameseeker Prophecies.
452AE - Scarab plague wipes out the Primeval Kings, ending Elonian rule in the Crystal Desert and Istan.
851AE - Lord Odran opens a number of portals into the Mists. One such portal is opened at the Tomb of the Primeval Kings in the Crystal Desert.
858AE - Turai Ossa leads the Great Pilgrimage into the Crystal Desert.
872AE - Abaddon causes the Jade Wind through Shiro Tagachi.
1070AE - Abaddon causes the Searing through the Charr.
1071AE - Abaddon causes the Cataclysm using the Charr and Vizier Khilbron.
1072AE - Vizier Khilbron, now the Undead Lich, attempts to reopen the Door of Komalie, and Shiro Tagachi attempts to return to the mortal realm. Both fail.
1075AE - Varesh Ossa attempts to bring about Nightfall and the return of Abaddon.
1075AE (present day) - Abaddon is defeated and Kormir takes his place, becoming the Goddess of Truth.
Of course, it's possible that Komalie was the god of Water and Knowledge before Abaddon, and Komalie's Rest is where he died, explaining the settlements, the door, and the destruction. Perhaps he, like Abaddon turned on the other gods and was defeated (the "cycle" that the mad spirits refer to) and Abaddon, like Kormir, struck the evil god down to take his position. That would make the Ring of Fire Island Chain to Komalie as the Mouth of Torment is to Abaddon, each time striking a god down, leaving a massive aftermath of destruction and opening a portal to their realm (in this case the Realm of Torment both times). It might also mean that Grenth struck Dhuum down at Lornar's Pass, seeing as there is an irregular portal to The Underworld there.

However, in either one of these theories, and in fact even if they weren't true, it would mean that the Mursaat were aware of the entire situation when somehow the rest of Tyria were not. They would have to be aware of the Bloodstones, their use, the Door of Komalie, it's use, King Doric and his lineage, and within a year of the Exodus too, to keep it closed. The only explanation for this would be that they were summoned to Tyria by the gods. This would also explain the Enchanted armours that look made for the Mursaat in the Crystal Desert - Glint, the Forgotten and the Mursaat were all from the same realm.

Both of these theories seem quite plausible to me, and particularly for the second one and the bit about the Mursaat, probably because (like the thread (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408189) and a later post (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4216064&postcount=21) waaaaaaaaay back at the Dragon Festival, most of which, with Quintus' ideas, turned out to be correct, btw) as I write my reply I keep realising the implications of these possibilities. If anyone wants to, they should feel free to look into these a bit more, since I think they are both, particularly the second one, interesting and highly possible possibilities.

Quintus Antonius
13-05-2007, 17:06
However, in either one of these theories, and in fact even if they weren't true, it would mean that the Mursaat were aware of the entire situation when somehow the rest of Tyria were not. They would have to be aware of the Bloodstones, their use, the Door of Komalie, it's use, King Doric and his lineage, and within a year of the Exodus too, to keep it closed. The only explanation for this would be that they were summoned to Tyria by the gods. This would also explain the Enchanted armours that look made for the Mursaat in the Crystal Desert - Glint, the Forgotten and the Mursaat were all from the same realm.


Maybe not from the same realm, but definitely for the same cause (under your theory that is). Regardless, even if we are 100% wrong about everything regarding the Mursaat, which I find highly improbable, they still knew all the stuff Santax just said. They knew things that were supposedly banished from history by the gods. Whether they found out, or simply knew all along is unclear. Another thing I've found interesting, that, like the Forgotten, the Mursaat do not appear to actively worship the gods. Now, for the Forgotten, the reason is pretty clear, they were summoned by the gods, they know all the gods secrets more or less, probably including the fact that they aren't really omnipotent, omnipresent gods. That said, the Forgotten at least hold a position of much greater respect to the gods, unlike the Mursaat who, from all appearances, want to take their place in the minds of Tyria.

If what Santax suggests is correct, and I find it most interesting, then perhaps the Mursaat are not satisfied with the job of Tyrian Janitor like that Forgotten seem to be, and are trying to set themselves up as gods not to be worshipped, but rather to recieve credit for what they've been doing. Jealousy? Maybe.

Sir Jack
13-05-2007, 17:58
Jealousy? Maybe.

Or, maybe, they're just sick and tired of not hearing much of the Gods. I mean, they left at the Exodus. We're 1075 years later. So far, most we hear of the Gods is zilch. Even at Gate of Madness, we hear from their Avatars, not the Gods themsleves, but their earthly representatives. Do they even still exist is something a race with a rather ungratefull job could be thinking. They still keep doing their job, which means they still held value to what the Gods once told them and know of the danger behind it, but the radiosilence could have made them doubt they were still around or even alive on their plain.
And, if I were a race of supercharged Mages with imba abilities and a crap job doubting my faith, I'd see if I couldn't "climb up the corporate ladder".
The Gods don't like it? Too bad, they're gone.
Now, this could change with the coming of a new Godess, Kormir. This shows the Gods are still alive and kicking, just not on our plain, but didn't see the need to intervene by returning yet. This could mean that the Mursaat regain their faith and stop trying to replace the Old Gods, because should they come back, they'd be in serious trouble.

Quintus Antonius
13-05-2007, 19:45
I know if I were the Mursaat and the Forgotten, constantly protecting Tyria, being killed by "heroes" in the name of the "gods", and getting no credit for anything I am doing, I'd be pretty miffed at the gods too.

aptaleonII
13-05-2007, 20:05
It might also mean that Grenth struck Dhuum down at Lornar's Pass, seeing as there is an irregular portal to The Underworld there.
Grenth struck down Dhuum at the Chaos Planes in the underworld, or at least that is where Dhuum's tower was destroyed by him. (I suppose the two occurances could have happened at different places, but this seems unlikely).

Also, what is meant by the term "mage lord"? At one time, i am sure, people were referring to the "mage lords" as a civilisation, or a specific group... (which, by the way, i think is very unlikely. I take "mage lord" to be a non-specific term denoting anyone with a lot of magic ability- on the levels of Sybitha or Kree.)

Ooh, 100th post on this thread. Woot.

Santax
13-05-2007, 20:12
Grenth struck down Dhuum at the Chaos Planes in the underworld, or at least that is where Dhuum's tower was destroyed by him. (I suppose the two occurances could have happened at different places, but this seems unlikely).

Also, what is meant by the term "mage lord"? At one time, i am sure, people were referring to the "mage lords" as a civilisation, or a specific group... (which, by the way, i think is very unlikely. I take "mage lord" to be a non-specific term denoting anyone with a lot of magic ability- on the levels of Sybitha or Kree.)

Ooh, 100th post on this thread. Woot.

Personally, I mean mage lord as prominent magical individuals throughout the history of Tyria who have one or more prominent acts that have changed Tyria dramatically, either on the short-term or the long term. Stuff like opening portals to the Mists (Odran) or unleashing new races (Kree or Sybithia). They also all have the "Lord" prefix. I don't think they're a single race or civilisation, however. There's a thingy that someone else did on it here (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415343).

Quintus Antonius
13-05-2007, 20:26
Yes, and seeing as Abaddon was the god of knowledge and secrets, it is very probable that the scholarly sorts, back when he was a legitamate god, would follow him.

I don't believe that means they are Margonites though.

Troal
14-05-2007, 00:22
There is a serious line to cross between making a spoof of something in an online game (naming skills after an internet cartoon character's name reversed) and making it the/a main villain for closing your game franchise. There's still copyright issues involved, and seeing as how ANet calling it the name in reverse + Dragon is already pretty much pushing it if they made him a boss somewhere, they'd have to work out quite a few legal issues if they are to make a (part of) storyline revolve around him.

Ahhh, I didn't consider that. Could Rodgort have simply been an alias for the Great Destroyer, whose true name has been sealed away? I wonder if there would be copyright issues if this copyrighted name was a simply a nickname, but given that it is a spoof off a comedy I guess it wouldn't work well. Then again, we haven't had any comedic major villains yet :grin:

I agree that Rodgort probably is a minion of a Great Destroyer, though I still have difficulty believing the GD is Menzies. Menzies has a presence in the Torment and in the FoW, while I got the impression that the GD was trapped beneath the surface of Tyria - utterly seperated from the Realms of the Gods. Menzies, in my opinion, is more likely a subordinate of the GD, perhaps an important general carrying on his legacy during his absence or the one who frees him in GW:EN.

Nanashi
14-05-2007, 05:46
k...
*googles Jack of Blades*
k...
I was refering to the name Rodgort, if Anet stole Fable's plot on top of it, they'd have some serious lawsuits on their hands.

Yar what Sant said on that. There's no resemblance what so ever besides the fact Rodgort would be the Great Destroyer - final boss of GW; if he is to be which I doubt. I think he's a minion of the Great Destroyer, whether it's Menzies or not. (vote still goes with Menzies.) Honestly I was just pointing out that a dragon of all things turned out to be the final boss.



A Balrog isn't a Dragon, it's exact position would be one of the Maiar of Fire, with Maiar being the equivalent of demi-gods...

- In the year 1980 of the Third Age, the Dwarves of Moria dug up the Balrog, who killed most of them.

Well I'm just noting the similarities. Think of it this way, The Stone Summit are apparently digging for the Great Destroyer no? In Sarrows Furnace, they are worshiping him? That's the similarity I'm looking at, instead of what happened in the books where the Dwarves accidentally dug up the Belrog (bad spelling on my part, I was never good at that) and got wiped out - The Stone Summit are instead purposefully searching for this being, the Great Destroyer, and are actually praising him/her/it. A turn of gears here so to speak.



EDIT: Speaking of the pictures you've posting Troal. Do you have the May Issue of PC Gamer Magazine? I do. In it there's this picture of what looks like an underground cathredial and against the wall there is a mural of what seems to be a demonic being, what appears to be a sword in the ground, with people around him. He apparently does have horns and wings...

Maybe Quint can better describe the picture better, I know he has the mag. It's on Page 28. His, what look like to be, horns are quite messed up, not like the picture of the skulls on RoF nor like the skill. But that does look like a huge sword being stabbed into the ground and holding it with one hand... much like the picture of the female Norn holding the blade with her left hand.

Quintus Antonius
14-05-2007, 06:06
Page 28 isn't even part of the Guild Wars section? GW stuff ends on Page 12.

I think you people are making something out of nothing. Seriously, Rodgort is not the Great Destroyer, it's just a homage to Homestar Runner, or in lore terms, a dragon, apparently Tyria had many at one time. Is it possible he is the father of Glint's eggs? Yeah, maybe, is that his head in the Ring of Fire islands? No, that's just a big stretch. Give it up.

Nanashi
14-05-2007, 06:18
Page 28 isn't even part of the Guild Wars section? GW stuff ends on Page 12.

It is for me. The picture of the underground labyrinth lit by candles. I guess they're different by country or something. The mag I got gave me the one with GW2 on the cover. the GW:EN/GW2 starts off on page 22.

Quintus Antonius
14-05-2007, 06:50
You're probably right. If it's the picture I'm thinking of then, it is just a picture of Balthazar and you can see the exact same picture in Old Ascalon City.

mocax
14-05-2007, 12:20
Could Dhuum be the Loki of GW?
The champions of Balthazar and heroes in the mists training and preparing for the Ragnarok to bring about GW2.

Now we just need a prophecy of the gods.