View Full Version : HA 6v6 Discussion thread
NicksterGoesWild
04-10-2006, 01:28
omg i cant believe 6v6 nerf....what were they thinking..that is going to kill HA, noone liked HA except for a few ppl..
Wow.... :/ Anet Fails.
http://www.guildwars.com/
"In lieu of the previously announced special weekend, we've decided to postpone the "Green Drop Weekend" until next week. This week's big news is the conversation of Heroes' Ascent into a 6v6 map. Yes, one of the most popular events will become a permanent element of the PvP game, along with a lot of exciting map changes, too. This will all go live sometime Friday, so stop on by and check it out. Check back next week for news about the "Green Drop Weekend" (which now promises to be even better)!"
Personally im bummed because i love HA as it is, and now its gunna be a scrubfest.
Why not just add a new arena?
David Holtzman
04-10-2006, 02:05
Tombs definitely needed an update, but this is like fixing a broken leg by breaking the other one.
Tombs definitely needed an update, but this is like fixing a broken leg by breaking the other one.
Haha, thats the best summary i have heard so far.
Absolutely horrible.
Going to ruin the HA I know and love, yeah it makes it more accessible to newer players (which makes it worst for experience players, less challenge) but you could have achieved that by just adding a new 6v6 arena, which is what should have been done.
I'm seriously dissapointed.
HA is the only thing I actually do in guildwars now.. :/ and i'm not sure i'm going to enjoy it anymore.
HappyPants
04-10-2006, 02:23
omg i cant believe 6v6 nerf....what were they thinking..that is going to kill HA, noone liked HA except for a few ppl..
noone liked HA except for a few ppl ... so lets keep it excatly the same way it was!!!
Anet can't please everyone. I haven't liked the setup of Heroes Ascent for over 12 months; maybe this will change it for me.
takplayer
04-10-2006, 02:24
Why wouldn't you enjoy it? Having to rework strategies is not a bad thing, just something you have to get used to. If anything, you'll still have your fame, and can continue to discriminate against non-ranked players.
Nurse With Wound
04-10-2006, 02:55
Hahaha, I feel sorry for those fame farmers now.. 6 vs 6 emote is a joke.
On a serious note though. This is the worst update ever. Their ruined HA for many HA dedicated guilds. This will be just another scrub arena, and basicly a huge waste of time for serious pvp'ers.
Sadly, anet drew wrong conclusions from double fame weekend. ITs not 6vs6 that made HA so popular, its the double fame. I think most of serious HA players are going to leave this place, I know my guild is going to focus on gvg entirely then. CBA to play there anymore, we formed 8 man stable team for a reason. In a month or two, "new" HA will be complete noob fest, and a deserted place, as most of good players will move to gvg.
GG to anet for compleatly screwing Heroes Ascend! All welcome the new scrub arena!
Fear Ares
04-10-2006, 03:27
o im so shocked from this change...WHY? Do u got a good reason to change it??? Is it maybe that u going TO kick players out from the game? or making HA a less ELITE PvP? If u want make a freaking new 6vs6 PvP, do not change HA that its been like this for more than a year and still ROCKS. Its a diamond of this game dont waste it...
manveruppd
04-10-2006, 04:52
ANet chose to listen to the people who were only excited because this was something new, and they got the chance to try something they couldn't try before because the double fame gimmick lured in lots of people who hadn't done much HA before, so it became easier for unranked people to get groups. This means the feedback ANet got was skewed, as a lot of those people were ONLY lured in by the double fame and have no intention to stick with it. Therefore, the people ANet are making the changes for won't stick around to keep playing, and the HA regulars, who, for the most part, didn't like the changes, were ignored.
I'm not the type to normally resist change: I've welcomed and understood the need for all changes to the game done so far, even when they weren't in my interest personally, such as when something I liked playing got nerfed. I was never one to contribute to whine/rage threads, and I've always tried to see the reasoning behind all of ANet's decisions, but in this case I think their decision is wrong and I won't support it, because changing HA from 8v8 to 6v6 will effectively remove an entire game format - one for which GvG is not a real substitute, and which thousands of people spent thousands of hours trying to learn how to play.
I feel betrayed. I know it sounds overdramatic and a bit emo, and it's not in my character to react like this, but I do.
Apok Omni
04-10-2006, 05:09
Wow, honestly, all I am hearing is ''wah wah wah, anet sucks''. Get over it, please. It was ANet's decision, and it's final. Will more ''scrubs'' or ''noobs'' join in? Yes, but then they could actually learn something about HA rather than listening to high-rank HA'ers call them noobs then excluding them for not having any rank.
Seriously, HA will involve more strategies and think-over's now than ever. A brand new metagame for HA. 6v6 will not hurt it one bit. If anything, it makes it harder than ever with less people.
However, unless the new maps are better, Dual-Smite will be heavily used by everyone, become over-used, and become the new IWAY/VIMWAY. Hex builds will take over once again. NR/Tranq will rise again.
All this means is that there is going to be a huge change in metagame in HA, since 6v6 is now the final verdict, as of now. So, you have three choices:
1) Either suck it up and make a new build designed for this change.
2) Sit here and complain about how ANet ''screws up anything''
or 3) Leave HA and do GvG.
David Holtzman
04-10-2006, 05:16
Seriously, HA will involve more strategies and think-over's now than ever. A brand new metagame for HA. 6v6 will not hurt it one bit. If anything, it makes it harder than ever with less people.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Just like every other metashift in HA history, builds will flounder around for about a month and then settle into hardcore defensive builds and hardcore offense. Likely more the former than the latter since healing and damage don't scale the right ways. The lack of utility in builds will make games less skill based and more chance based. More situations will arise in which you simply cannot take in the right moves. The situation is highly degenerative and is, I believe, the worst move made by Anet to date.
gregoryb
04-10-2006, 06:33
Why don't we all just wait and see what they bring with Nightfall. Personally, I'm in favor for the 6v6 because hardcore HA players can still do what they love (on a smaller level) and new people can have their shot at it without wasting an hour just getting 7 others in a group. In all honesty, a breathe of fresh air would do some good to the stagnant HA experience.
along with a lot of exciting map changes, too.
That sounds interesting.
Boofhead
04-10-2006, 10:57
This is an awesome change, and people who don't like it are scrubs.
Parker Bsb
04-10-2006, 12:10
I think it's a good thing - HA is pretty much as much a joke as AB's are right now. The meta IS stale as it really doesn't matter if you win or lose - so people just happily play their fame farming build and know they'll eventually get that emote they want.
Spike builds will be less prevelant now (which means holding builds as a whole).
My predections:
1) "mass exodus"
2) Some new form of IWAY is born
3) new batch of players start playing
Honestly the map change is BY FAR more interesting than the change from 8 to 6
Laura Fantus
04-10-2006, 12:16
Honestly the map change is BY FAR more interesting than the change from 8 to 6
If they only did a map change I'd run around with "I love ANet" signs today...
Perfidia
04-10-2006, 12:55
Just speculation, but I am guessing a new 8v8 arena will be released with our favorite games newest expansion pack...
Maybe!
Phoenixtech
04-10-2006, 13:04
They should have made TA into 6 man and designed new maps for it and gave it some sort of new title track. Oh well, too late now.
Maybe.
But change in HA from 8v8 to 6v6 means I am not going to buy Nightfall probably, not on release for sure.
IF they add some interesting 8v8 PvP area and make it acessible to PvP-only characters and to all chapters (otherwise it will be vastly underpopulated I am afraid), maybe I will try it out and change decision.
It is sad, there are interesting new skills for PvP comming with Nightfall, skills that would change current metagame even if it stayed 8v8. Not like Factions, that was big mistake.
Also I dont get it why preview weekends with new professions and skills were 8v8 then. I thought it was to find balance for new skills, but for this it was useless (in regard to HA).
Mc
manveruppd
04-10-2006, 13:51
ANet chose to listen to the people who were only excited because this was something new, and they got the chance to try something they couldn't try before because the double fame gimmick lured in lots of people who hadn't done much HA before, so it became easier for unranked people to get groups. This means the feedback ANet got was skewed, as a lot of those people were ONLY lured in by the double fame and have no intention to stick with it. Therefore, the people ANet are making the changes for won't stick around to keep playing, and the HA regulars, who, for the most part, didn't like the changes, were ignored.
I'm not the type to normally resist change: I've welcomed and understood the need for all changes to the game done so far, even when they weren't in my interest personally, such as when something I liked playing got nerfed. I was never one to contribute to whine/rage threads, and I've always tried to see the reasoning behind all of ANet's decisions, but in this case I think their decision is wrong and I won't support it, because changing HA from 8v8 to 6v6 will effectively remove an entire game format - one for which GvG is not a real substitute, and which thousands of people spent thousands of hours trying to learn how to play.
I feel betrayed. I know it sounds overdramatic and a bit emo, and it's not in my character to react like this, but I do.
1 post would have been enough for that.
I feel kind of sad, but life (yes, it is my life) goes on, lets see how the 6v6 works with time.
^^ Awesome triple-post.
Personally I love the change - it makes teams easier to make for pick up groups, whilst making characters that are specific for one map obsolete (you can't afford the drop of a character). It also means there will be more strategy.
Imagine if they reset fame to go with it.....
Damn that would be good (but unpopular methinks)
Fenrik de Arvis
04-10-2006, 14:54
Get over it, please. It was ANet's decision, and it's final.
No, it's not. Nothing in GW is final. If ANet changes anything, they do it for the players that pay them. And if there are enough complains, HA will become 8vs8 again (or a new 8vs8-arena, similar to HA, will be added), because Anet won't do changes that players hate, it would just be stupid....
Hahaha - I love the different reactions between HA'ers and GvG'ers.... Loads of GvG'ers love it, HA'ers hate it... ah well.
I like the changes, should be interesting.
They'll also get rid of the character building, where a certain character is dedicated to something (like holding or running relics). Greater strategy as teams are smaller, less monks, less defense.
MORE OFFENSE!!!!!!
Reset fame and it'd rock (but i think i'm now very unpopular for saying that.... )
Fear Ares
04-10-2006, 15:37
It was ANet's decision, and it's final.
Well I think that we should talk about this. What if it was Anets decision? You dont think that its not our bussiness? Ofc it is cause this is the game we play and like, we are the community of this game and every change affect us if its bad or good in simmilar ways...as i said before i dont like the change of HA to 6vs6 cause HA is grate as it is. If you want to get more people in PvP just make new arenas of 6vs6 with the new world, dont destroy the classics.
And thats my point of view HA dont need changes even if the players that play there is just a few of the majority of the game, cause to get in the 'elite' society of HA u must 'bleed' and its hard to get there from the rank0, but thats how it is, strongest survives, weaklings drop and desappear.
Fenrik de Arvis
04-10-2006, 15:47
Get over it, please. It was ANet's decision, and it's final.
No, it's not. Nothing in GW is final. If ANet changes anything, they do it for the players that pay them. And if there are enough complains, HA will become 8vs8 again (or a new 8vs8-arena, similar to HA, will be added), because Anet won't do changes that players hate, it would just be stupid....
SpitfireIXA
04-10-2006, 15:50
I think all the noobs are complaining because this update will nerf their beloved IWAY build that they can't live without ...
Parker Bsb
04-10-2006, 15:55
Okay there is some sort of server issue - if people could PLEASE refrain from hitting refresh on that white page that sometimes pops up it will help with the amount of "double" postings.
maybe they want to make the game more accessible to people who are going to buy nightfall only. Remember their primary objective is to make money by selling their game, maybe they feel they can make more money this way. Because to be honnest there probably arent more than 10,000 8v8HA fans. If these 10,000 don't buy Nightfall but 100,000 newplayers do then its easy to see they have made alot of money.
Now if they left it as it is now when all the game mags come to test out HA, they will wright something to the effect of "we couldnt actually try the high end PvP because of the difficulty in finding a team due to hardcore players sticking together". So the potential new players will think "ah so its not grind free".
They said it from the start gw is aimed at being easily accessible even to new players. As it is only groups of people who know eachother or have high rank (=high amount of play time) can find a team. If you want to grind your way to the top so you can say "WOOT I PWN YOU NOOB" then guildwars is not for you. I think it should be based on talent and not on who has been playing VIM (or any other build for that matter) the most.
Also no point laughing at someone who didnt know how to avoid the triple post (especialy as it resulted from a bug), this is exactly the same kind of attitude as rejecting people because they have played less HA than you.
On a side note I do agree HA going 6v6 will reduce the fun for HA players, especialy as friends might not be able to play together anymore. (i.e. you can't have the same players doing HA and GvG together, I know GvG and HA are different but I'm just saying some people might have to be excluded, and excluding friends sux)
maybe they want to make the game more accessible to people who are going to buy nightfall only. Remember their primary objective is to make money by selling their game, maybe they feel they can make more money this way. Because to be honnest there probably arent more than 10,000 8v8HA fans. If these 10,000 don't buy Nightfall but 100,000 newplayers do then its easy to see they have made alot of money.
Now if they left it as it is now when all the game mags come to test out HA, they will wright something to the effect of "we couldnt actually try the high end PvP because of the difficulty in finding a team due to hardcore players sticking together". So the potential new players will think "ah so its not grind free".
They said it from the start gw is aimed at being easily accessible even to new players. As it is only groups of people who know eachother or have high rank (=high amount of play time) can find a team. If you want to grind your way to the top so you can say "WOOT I PWN YOU NOOB" then guildwars is not for you. I think it should be based on talent and not on who has been playing VIM (or any other build for that matter) the most.
Also no point laughing at someone who didnt know how to avoid the triple post (especialy as it resulted from a bug), this is exactly the same kind of attitude as rejecting people because they have played less HA than you.
On a side note I do agree HA going 6v6 will reduce the fun for HA players, especialy as friends might not be able to play together anymore. (i.e. you can't have the same players doing HA and GvG together, I know GvG and HA are different but I'm just saying some people might have to be excluded, and excluding friends sux)
ZiegDivine
04-10-2006, 16:30
I think all the noobs are complaining because this update will nerf their beloved IWAY build that they can't live without ...
This doesn't nerf IWAY. If anything, IWAY is more pressure now...
FarbrorVattenmelon
04-10-2006, 16:55
Now if they left it as it is now when all the game mags come to test out HA, they will wright something to the effect of "we couldnt actually try the high end PvP because of the difficulty in finding a team due to hardcore players sticking together". So the potential new players will think "ah so its not grind free".
So basicly you are saying that by changing HA to 6v6 all hardcore players will start playing with other people?
Almas Darksoul
04-10-2006, 17:18
I am heavily opposed to the change, and I am a "GvG-player".
HA has always been a great place to relax with casual builds for me, even when I was grinding the emotes there. It didn't require extreme attention or even a high level of skill to play at high levels there.
Non-monk pressure builds became a LOT more powerful during the weekend as some skills that prevent them could no longer be taken - it was sometimes a struggle to beat a team that you could probably crush in 1-2 minutes in 8v8 combat. I honestly don't want to see IWAY/VIMWAY builds becoming more powerful, as there is currently more than enough of them about.
A lot of the complaints about HA is people saying that the grind is not fair, or that other people are elitist towards them - a lot of people seem to not notice that a lot of people worked hard for the fame, and they have legitimate reasons to now want to play with random new people. And IMO, those players with the semi-high fame counts are the ones who will be using the arena for a long time to come.
All of my guild is disgusted with the change, and the majority of the HA dedicated players I know are as well. GvG is not comparable as an alternative to HA - they are completely different arenas. HA is more about the fight, which is what makes it so fun for some people. While some maps can be won by strategy, they can all be won by mindlessly slaughtering the enemy (provided you do it well enough).
I think that all this change will do is cause a large proportion of the current HA'ers to stop playing the arena (perhaps even leaving the game unless an alternative is provided), while creating a large initial influx of newer players. They'll be happy for a while, but they will realise that the grind is always there, regardless of the team size. As is the preference of friends over random strangers for group formation.
I kinda like it.. maybe now we'll see some new builds out, spikes will be less dominant than before..
PLUS, if they keep the rewards the same, combined with the faster games resulting from less players, will mean more faction and fame overall :D
Spike builds will be less prevelant now (which means holding builds as a whole).
I think this is a partial goal. Not to bring down spikes, but to weaken holding builds.
Honestly the map change is BY FAR more interesting than the change from 8 to 6In all the uproar on the topic, this has been almost forgotten. I think a few people are making far too much out of this without knowing what these map changes are.
The lack of utility in builds will make games less skill based and more chance based. More situations will arise in which you simply cannot take in the right moves. Maybe you should spend less time looking at you screen for skills and more time looking within for the greatest skill of all. You limit yourself with thinking those 8 skills in the bar are all you have.
6vs6 really helps smaller guilds that don't have the numbers for GvG. As they can now compete at a reasonable level without needing to fill in with pick ups.
Shanaeri Rynale
04-10-2006, 17:55
Just a thought.. Maybe they'll sell the ability to play 2 extra players available in the Gw store...
(hides)
On a serious note. You dont take away Gameplay options, you add to them. Adding a 6v6 Arena with say 1/2 fame would still have encourged new players to join in, and yet keep the veterans who form a lot of the knowledge base in the game happy.
Imagine if they reset fame to go with it.....
Damn that would be good (but unpopular methinks)
HEY, GREAT IDEA!!11 Lets reset guild cape trims and rank randomly in the middle of the season too. Doesn't matter that they worked for it, its because everyone else doesnt want to, right?
Why is 6v6 necessarily a scrub fest anymore than TA is?
I welcome the change and if Hardcore players leave because they have to learn new formulas to win. Buh bye and good riddance.
Seriously, though, good players adapt, overcome and excel. They also create new cookie cutter builds for the rest of us who don't have the time or game knowhow to do it.
twistedmo
04-10-2006, 19:04
Its too soon to criticize Anet's decision to change HA from 8v8 to 6v6 since we dont know what map changes etc will occur.
I personally think current state of the game is stale in comparison to gvg and not as fun, but I do hope chest drops improve with rarer drops.
Guild Deputy
04-10-2006, 19:49
According to me it would be good to make a new 6 vs 6 arena with a new title track and keep HA and TA etc as it still is today. So everybody is happy, the 6 vs 6 will just be a practice of learning how to play in quite big teams and start doing HA so everybody gets a fair and even chance of finding teams.
B Ephekt
04-10-2006, 19:59
Imagine if they reset fame to go with it.....
Damn that would be good (but unpopular methinks)Why would you reset fame now when some people have 6 or 7k from nothing but balanced and the occasional spike? Fame wasn't reset after the spirit spam nerf, I'm pretty sure it won't be reset now. There's really no reason to take away what some people have earned legitimately, just to appease people who have been pveing or gvging for the past year.
Personally I don't like the changes, as it seems it will only hinder creativity. During the preview there was nothing but ViM, dual ranger degen and thump smite with the occasional bspike or failed SB/RI. Sure, Tombs has it's share of gimmicks now, but people who can make it past the first four maps know there is a lot of balanced in HA currently.
I really wish they would've added a 6v6 arean with it's own title track and left Tombs alone. I know a lot of Tombs players like the 8v8 deathmatch style - I know that's what drew me in.
Interesting to hear different reactions on this. To me it kind of came from left field.. was not expecting it, altho I abandoned HA pretty much the same weekend I tried it. I couldn't stand the ten-hour wait to get into yet another "gimmick" build that disbands after its first failure.
So I'm fairly indifferent towards the change, altho I can see how spikes are going to play out very differently now, and perhaps the game balance will be a bit more diverse in a 6v6 setting.
Anet just screwed over hardcore HA players...
Yet another reason why WoW > GW.
GaryArmstrong
04-10-2006, 21:34
I think its cool.
All these elite players in HA would stop playing giving us non ranked players to be part of it.
How many of you guys are rank 3+?
I kinda like it.. maybe now we'll see some new builds out, spikes will be less dominant than before..
PLUS, if they keep the rewards the same, combined with the faster games resulting from less players, will mean more faction and fame overall :D
lolercoaster.... If you wanna see more origonal builds come up with one, and find 7 people to run it with you... its really not that hard... if it doesnt suck and you can actually win people will copy it, end of story.
It wont mean more fame because you are going to be playing rock paper sciscors half the time and thus, so most likely runs will be cut shorter and over the long run you will be getting a lot more 10-16 fame runs but not as many 100 fame runs... and you will gave to do 10 10 fame runs to make upp for 1 100 fame run because you are rolling the dice to see who will win, rather than letting player skill decide.
ZiegDivine
04-10-2006, 23:09
6vs6 really helps smaller guilds that don't have the numbers for GvG. As they can now compete at a reasonable level without needing to fill in with pick ups.
Why not make gvg 6v6 then? Exactly, you wouldn't like that, would you? HA isn't a "we don't have enough for gvg" playground, and it shouldn't become one.
melandrus elite
04-10-2006, 23:11
How can you even think this change is good at all pressure builds will now run amok no more new spike teams (such as my water spike which I was going to run again) no toxicity degen which looked awasome and an insane amount of starburst/random groups running around..
melandrus elite
04-10-2006, 23:37
How is this Patch supposed to help people now the spike builds are all cut down to half power the Pressure builds are to powerful, Starburst and nooblars will be running amok in HA and the worst part is that the only place we can 8v8 now is in GvG so thanks a lot ANet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Grom Blaksaber~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DreamWind
05-10-2006, 00:03
I think the people complaining are the ones that are angry because they won't be able to use their "insert gimmick build here" in HA anymore. No more ranger spike, blood spike, iway. New strategies will arise, get used to it.
I have debated about this before, but 6v6 puts more emphasis on individual skill than 8v8. It is also ****ton easier to find teams. NOBODY liked having to wait an hour to set up an 8 man team. 6 man makes it much easier. I'm not saying 6v6 is clearly superior (it isn't, gvg will always be the peak of challenge in Guild Wars), but 6v6 definately isn't clearly worse.
And why is nobody mentioning the maps?? I'm mostly a gvg player, and I can tell you that HA has been boring as hell for over 6 months if not longer now. It needed a change and this is it. Bravo anet.
I kinda like the change, I liked the previous 6v6 weekend because it allowed my small guild... and I mean SMALL guild... to find groups where we could all play together.
Sure we could do it with the 8v8 groups, but it was much more difficult with the large groups because of longer wait times to find people and the all the gimick builds floating around that only wanted a certain type of character. With smaller teams it was easier to fill the extra spots and run the builds that my guildies wanted to run. For my guild at least, that was the fun part, playing what you liked to play, not playing some one else's build just so they could fame farm.
The double fame was nice too (I won't deny that), but I'll definitely be getting back into HoH stuff if this 6v6 thing is permanent even if it's not double fame.
nightrunner
05-10-2006, 02:33
Maybe you should spend less time looking at you screen for skills and more time looking within for the greatest skill of all. You limit yourself with thinking those 8 skills in the bar are all you have.
Experience/playing skill is the most powerful thing you have, true. But skill means nothing if you don't have the right tools to work with.
And yes, HA's builds were stagnant and rather boring. Yes, 6v6 changes that (temporarily, at least). But really, map changes would also have changed things up, without making the game more rock-paper-scissors. And people will always gravitate toward things that work, and are easy, so no matter what you do there will always be popular FoTM builds.
You guys are forgetting one thing: A-net is constantly updating GW, they could possibly make another tourney style 8v8 like HA, but named something else with different maps. Also, consider maybe having those so called "good" players that move over to gvg is a good thing? Isn't GW about the guild vs. guild? Thats my favorite part of the game, not HA
Well, I have ~12 months of PvP under my belt, and I really couldn't stand the old HA. I got my r3 emote and never looked back. I've been at 181 fame for months. I know I'm not the only person to say in guild chat after I got the emote: "Remind me to never set foot in HA ever again."
In short, I think there are going to be more people than expected like myself coming in that aren't new to PvP, but just never messed much with HA. Yes, some people who loved HA the way it was will quit. It's to be expected with any change of this magnitude. But here's another for the list that's looking forward to it quite a bit.
Valerria
05-10-2006, 05:49
Jesus, I wonder if all the people complaining here simply lost their minds when PvE party size got beyond 2...
Pros for this change:
*Unlike on gvg teams can split in 2 to perform different tasks according to map while in HA the group is usually intact together and not splitting so removal of 2 players won't ruin the gameplay but will change it (for good).
*GW philosophy is that the most skilled player will be favored in pvp areas and not the most experienced one (grinder). The biggest drawback on HA against skilled players is that it takes very long just to organize a group before the player could actually show thier skills. With 2 players out this weekend, it reduces the time skilled players have to wait but also encourages them to be more alert/skilled because the pressure in HA will be as strong as IWAY(without being IWAY itself) due to less monks.
*This setup will allow nonrank ppl to gain additional chance on winning against a grinder because most of the experienced ppl mostly can't adapt to change and whine to every nerf because it reduces thier chances of winning.
*this reduces the chances of cookie-cutter spikes, full setuped iway,map specific(anti-new ppl) builds.
To sum it up 6vs6 HA will make it more intense and more challenging for skilled players (both new and ppl that will adapt to change). Noobs will still be shattered so there is no problem there.
Heroes doesn't do the same things over and over again. They always act to what they are meant for...success. And they do it in different ways.
Well that's my opinion and pls don't attack me personally just the ideas I presented.
Almas Darksoul
05-10-2006, 16:26
*GW philosophy is that the most skilled player will be favored in pvp areas and not the most experienced one (grinder). The biggest drawback on HA against skilled players is that it takes very long just to organize a group before the player could actually show thier skills. With 2 players out this weekend, it reduces the time skilled players have to wait but also encourages them to be more alert/skilled because the pressure in HA will be as strong as IWAY(without being IWAY itself) due to less monks.
If they introduce new maps which are anything other than pure fights, there will be a degree of experience in who wins. And pure fights are rather dull, IMO. HA had holding, capturing altars and relic running, GvG has strategy, flag control etc. If they remove the "strategy" from HA, it will become another TA, just with more people, and if they don't remove it, people with more experience will still be better.
You say it will encourage the more skilled players because the pressure from IWAY will be bigger... Erm... That means it will encourage more IWAYers, does it not?
*This setup will allow nonrank ppl to gain additional chance on winning against a grinder because most of the experienced ppl mostly can't adapt to change and whine to every nerf because it reduces thier chances of winning.
I don't quite understand where you get the idea that experienced players can't adapt. In my current guild, we are playing our first competitive GvG season (probably around the second real GvG season for the players), yet we still maintain a half-decent rank. We are "experienced" in HA, but have adapted to GvG easily. Even the players who have been farming with the same build can merely copy someone elses build.
*this reduces the chances of cookie-cutter spikes, full setuped iway,map specific(anti-new ppl) builds.
No it doesn't, it'll just change what they are.
Pretty much all of the people who I know and I consider as "experienced" also have a level of skill above that of the average player that can be found in E1-HA. And i'm fairly sure that that isn't a coincidence.
"Lame" "gimmick" builds will still exist, and people will still play them. At the same time, the most skilled players (who are still willing to play in the arena) will easily and quickly adapt, and semi-skilled players who are observant of builds will soon follow. Sure, the average unranked guy will be able to get into a group quicker, but they'll still lose and disband just as quickly.
Well this really sucks :/. I see no good coming from this, except for that it will make team making easier. But gameplay wise it will definitely be negative, as it limits your options and hence turns it into more of a rock-paper-scissor game.
Lothiron
05-10-2006, 18:02
"OMG OUR PRECIOUS HA IS DEAD NOW."
Grow a pair, all of you whiners that are whining about something that there is no need to whine about.
Seriously, times change, it happens all the time. You adapt to the change and thrive, or you die.
HA is 6 people now. Why not give it some time (note: that weekend does not constitute enough time) and play around in it before you scream "DAMN YOU ANET" over and over again.
It gets old. Stop prejudging things. Try it, you might actually find it to your liking.
Midnight De Blood
06-10-2006, 03:35
I am an adament pvp player and i like this change looking into the future a month this will end up being really fun and figuring i hate all forms of iway (vim too). As for the gimmick builds they will always be here but with the 6v6 people have to think out of the box, for the first month I know we will see the gimmicks but those go out on NFs release vims and iway for example. and second the elitism so what the r9+ they will be just a noob with the new maps and the new builds so thats fine too i dont mind if my r5 almost 6 was a kind of waste this will prove more of a challenge which i really have been waiting for. As far as the people that hate this, why? cant you adjust or are you upset at being a noob again, or is it the fact that you think that HA should only be for the elitist. Plus most of the spike (gimmick) builds listed, so far, all are going to be weaker with 6v6 even a 6 monk stall can easily be dealt with and with NF easier plus those that want a 8v8 pvp field NF has 2 more pvp one of which is for heros the other is not listed so there may be a new 8v8 and HA needed to be modded (helping the nerf of some of the 8v8 builds) it is dull and boring with the same old builds used over and over and with the gimmick builds with 6v6 they will have multiple weaknesses so still no problem
Psychotic
06-10-2006, 05:02
Woo... HA changed... go play Tombs now?
David Holtzman
06-10-2006, 06:32
There's a variety of problems with turning HA into a 6v6 format. I'll go through and try to adress each that I can find separately.
First you have the issue of mechanics vs skillslots. The HA as a whole has a variety of different mechanisms in play throughout the course of maps. It has altars, anihilations, relics, and every map has its twist. Unlike GvG, these different mechanics do not occur concurently, meaning a tombs build needs to be able to adapt such that it can focus on the pressing mechanism (e.g. running and mobile combat in relics, head to head bashing in broken, altar capping in courtyard, etc) when relevant. Doing this requires a number of skills that are really only useful on those maps. Seeking arrows for altar maps is a good example of that. However, teams can get away with having these otherwise pretty poor skills because they can hide them away on otherwise useful characters. PD on a general dom mesmer is a good example of that. As it happens, the good altar skills are elite based. I'm referring to Spellbreaker, Practiced Stance, Psychic Distraction, etc. When you make tombs 6v6, you remove not only 14 base skills but 2 elites. Assuming you need 3 elites for altar capping, that only leaves 3 for killing or staying alive. You very quickly run into the situation such that you simply cannot effectively kill, survive, and have utility for altars and relics. That sort of system is just poor. It's not fun to enter a game where you just have to give up on winning some maps in a progression. It's a poor way to design a competition because it ends up proving nothing other than who built for the right maps (this is somewhat already the case, but nowhere near as bad as it could be thanks to diminishing returns).
The second issue you have is the question of build psychology. It's generally held that flavors will go away and that long matches (against 6 monk teams like bloodspike) will go away if the change no longer supports those sort of builds. This is a false notion. In general, when people lose to a build, they change their build to counter the one they lost to. If beaten by hexes they take more hex removal. If beaten by IWAY they take wards. If Necrospike beats them they take Infuse. You see the trend. First people worry about survival, then about killing. After all, it's hard to kill when you're dead. Well, what does that mean for the 6man build? It means lots and lots of defense. The way you beat a team in 6v6 is to overpower some aspect of the build. Hex overload (Nyog), condition spam (KGYU), pure physical pressure (IWAY), massive energy debilitation (Air Jordan), etc. If we take into account the reaction noted above, what is the conclusion? Heavy defense builds. The more you worry about overload the more you take lots and lots of shutdown and defense. You take one warrior if you can, and maybe kill every so often, but mostly the battle takes place between shutdown. Those sorts of battles are extremely dull.
"But wait," I hear said, "people are already running those sorts of builds. Look at dual migraine teams or monk spike or necro spike." A good point, but let's compare the 8v8 versions to the 6v6 versions. It's true that dual migraine teams are based on shutdown, but even so there's a great deal of versatility. You have dual migraine, dual spiteful; dual migraine, dual warrior; dual migraine, 1 cg, 2 eles; etc. Based around the template of dual migraines, you can actually afford to run totally different sorts of builds in 8v8 format. You can do this because you can spread the needed utility around on different characters (dual cry/dual shock, dual leeches and a seeking, etc). In 6v6 format however, you don't really have the ability to do that. There simply aren't enough players on the team to make that many differences. You have to run a warrior to kill, you have to run dual migraines by definition, you need at least 2 monks, and that forces your last player into war defence/altar utility. In short, it sucks. When you make a build, you take what you need and then what you want. If you need 5 slots per character just to be functional in 8 man, that leaves you with 2 slots per person in 6 man. Not really enough to play around with. Not only that, but since the skills are in specific classes it forces your hand as to what to bring if you want to be effective. That makes the game just a lot less interesting to play. Uninteresting games don't attract people to play them, just look at TA.
The third issue you have is that GW was balanced to play at 8v8. That means that naturally the very best sort of available play is in 8v8. When you remove 8v8 tombs you remove the only casual way to play the best of what GW has to offer. This has two big issues associated with it. First, it means the only best play offered is in GvG, and second it means that there's no way to gain GvG necessary training aside from GvG.
GvG is a serious system. By its very nature it precludes the concept of casual play. Any game in GvG matters because through winning or losing you determine the value of your opponents. This means that you have to take GvG seriously if you want to get anything from it. But GW was based on the idea that a casual player could come in and experience the best of what GW has to offer. With 6v6 tombs, that is simply no longer the case.
To enter GvG and win, which is required for any serious consideration in the GvG system, you need a set of fundamentals you can't get anywhere but in 8 man tombs. You gain the basic idea about getting 8 people together and organizing them into a cohesive build. You get an idea of skills at the scale they were meant to be played at. You learn how to deal with various mechanisms that show up in GvG all the time (running objects, stand fighting, surviving mass pressure, etc). The playstyle is certainly different, but the fundamentals are the same. The loss of 8v8 tombs means that these fundamentals can only be gained in GvG. 6man teams apply a different sort of pressure than an 8 man team because they're missing out on 14 skills and 2 elites. They manuever differently since they run different backlines and different utility characters. 6man won't help any more than TA does. It will be nice for a couple situation, but you're really not going to go from one to the other with any ability to succeed.
There's a variety of problems with turning HA into a 6v6 format. I'll go through and try to adress each that I can find separately.
First you have the issue of mechanics vs skillslots. The HA as a whole has a variety of different mechanisms in play throughout the course of maps. It has altars, anihilations, relics, and every map has its twist. Unlike GvG, these different mechanics do not occur concurently, meaning a tombs build needs to be able to adapt such that it can focus on the pressing mechanism (e.g. running and mobile combat in relics, head to head bashing in broken, altar capping in courtyard, etc) when relevant. Doing this requires a number of skills that are really only useful on those maps. Seeking arrows for altar maps is a good example of that. However, teams can get away with having these otherwise pretty poor skills because they can hide them away on otherwise useful characters. PD on a general dom mesmer is a good example of that. As it happens, the good altar skills are elite based. I'm referring to Spellbreaker, Practiced Stance, Psychic Distraction, etc. When you make tombs 6v6, you remove not only 14 base skills but 2 elites. Assuming you need 3 elites for altar capping, that only leaves 3 for killing or staying alive. You very quickly run into the situation such that you simply cannot effectively kill, survive, and have utility for altars and relics.
I can understand this point.
But, well, the other teams will face the same problem (less skills and elites) so maybe it won't be that bad ?
i cant get a username
06-10-2006, 08:07
why fix something that isnt broken?
HA was fine how it was and i think the double fame was what attracted everyone to this event,as mentioned before.
David Holtzman
06-10-2006, 09:25
I can understand this point.
But, well, the other teams will face the same problem (less skills and elites) so maybe it won't be that bad ?
It will be worse. See, what will happen is teams will invariably decide to cut their losses. They will pack on the map utility skills they need and then devise a killing strategy with what's left. A ward foes or two isn't very useful in killing people, but it is pretty nice on relic maps, so take it and maybe use it to trap their offense. Of course, the ideal solution would be to take damage characters that mitigated offense, but unfortunately they just can't be well fit into the build.
The other way teams will go is to pack tons and tons of altar utility in the build, and then try and survive their way to Halls. You already saw that with 8v8 and 6 cg rangers. Our ranger spike was a sort of incarnation of that concept. Maps with a few of those sorts of teams will make everyone lose, because of just how easy it really is to stop a ghost from capping. In 8v8, you could afford to spare a slot or two for a blindflash or a clumsiness or a blackout. In 6v6 though, you'll need all the skills you can get just for staying alive when you get 12v6ed after capping the Halls altar.
Mister Smartypants
06-10-2006, 11:27
The third issue you have is that GW was balanced to play at 8v8. That means that naturally the very best sort of available play is in 8v8. When you remove 8v8 tombs you remove the only casual way to play the best of what GW has to offer. This has two big issues associated with it. First, it means the only best play offered is in GvG, and second it means that there's no way to gain GvG necessary training aside from GvG.
GvG is a serious system. By its very nature it precludes the concept of casual play. Any game in GvG matters because through winning or losing you determine the value of your opponents. This means that you have to take GvG seriously if you want to get anything from it. But GW was based on the idea that a casual player could come in and experience the best of what GW has to offer. With 6v6 tombs, that is simply no longer the case.
To enter GvG and win, which is required for any serious consideration in the GvG system, you need a set of fundamentals you can't get anywhere but in 8 man tombs. You gain the basic idea about getting 8 people together and organizing them into a cohesive build. You get an idea of skills at the scale they were meant to be played at. You learn how to deal with various mechanisms that show up in GvG all the time (running objects, stand fighting, surviving mass pressure, etc). The playstyle is certainly different, but the fundamentals are the same. The loss of 8v8 tombs means that these fundamentals can only be gained in GvG. 6man teams apply a different sort of pressure than an 8 man team because they're missing out on 14 skills and 2 elites. They manuever differently since they run different backlines and different utility characters. 6man won't help any more than TA does. It will be nice for a couple situation, but you're really not going to go from one to the other with any ability to succeed.
The above is the first thing in any of the multiple "No to 6v6 HA!" threads currently in existence that has made any sense to me.
Brief sidetrack, to explain where I'm coming from: I have 0 rank, 0 fame, and a massive total PvP experience of one evening's play in Yak's Bend arena... *so far* (for those that like to correlate opinions and experience). When I've got enough skills and capped some decent elites so that I have the tools I need to be effective then I intend to try PvP again, working my way up from RA to as far as whatever ability I have will take me (top-rank GvG would be nice! :cool: (LOL fat chance)), and so the whole "getting into a team" business is of interest to me, albeit at a theoretical level at the moment. I know nothing about builds and variety and utility and creativity and how all of that will be affected by the change to 6v6, however, so I'll leave discussion of that to those with more experience than me.
OK, back on track. To me, looking at it from the outside and with an admittedly PvE/new player bias, I thought that HA was about getting your name in lights, and maybe winning favour for your country so you could access the high-end PvE areas. I hadn't really thought that it could/would/should get used by top-of-the-ladder guilds looking for somewhere to practice and try out new builds where the result of a match wouldn't affect their position on the ladder. No wonder HA has the reputation of excluding new players and being full of "R9+ [this build] only" elitism: you can't exactly get a fair test of your new team build if you have a new player screwing things up with their inexperience! :undecided: However, now that you've pointed that out, well... I can't help thinking that it seems fairer to have GvG "friendlies" somewhere else and leave HA free for high-level but more casual (is that a contradiction in terms?) PvP where you can get a team together relatively quickly. Even with all of the possible build-related downsides to HA being 6v6 now, I do think that the enforced increase in casualness is a good thing where favour is concerned - although I do sympathise with those that liked it as it was. :sad: Maybe, as others have said, ANet will make a new 8v8 arena in Nightfall - one that's not associated with the PvE endgame - and there will once again be somewhere for people to gain experience of that style of game-play outside of GvG?
"OMG OUR PRECIOUS HA IS DEAD NOW."
Grow a pair, all of you whiners that are whining about something that there is no need to whine about.
Seriously, times change, it happens all the time. You adapt to the change and thrive, or you die.
HA is 6 people now. Why not give it some time (note: that weekend does not constitute enough time) and play around in it before you scream "DAMN YOU ANET" over and over again.
It gets old. Stop prejudging things. Try it, you might actually find it to your liking.
I did play it with 6 people and did not like it. And yes, that weekend was plenty of time to try 6v6. The maps do not favor 6v6 play. 6v6 is seriously a joke compared to 8v8 play. Read Holtzmans posts above and you'll understand why 6v6 is not a viable option for HA gameplay.
I am wondering if this change will be because Anet will be adding something more at the release of Nightfall....
Patccmoi
06-10-2006, 14:54
snip
While some of your points are valid, others i don't agree with.
1) HA wasn't a place where casual players could experience the best of GW. Casual players couldn't do anything in HA because all they could ever join was very bad PuGs that took forever to form and disbanded at first loss. People getting something out of HA were dedicated HAers who spent a lot of time there, had a big friend list, often an HA guild, etc. Well... if they have all that, they can have the same for GvG to experience 'the best of what GW has to offer'. Casual players stayed miles from HA, and that's why it was more and more barren. There is always some PuGs forming, mostly because people want fame for emote and other forms of PvP out of GvG just offer no reward (well, there is some titles now, and it actually raised the competition of TA quite a bit with guilds like Eat (a little while ago), RA and RezQ making solid builds for the place and being in there a damn lot. But let's face it, glad title isn't something when you compare it to fame, rank, emote, sigils and gold item drops so players who want to 'gain' something when they play go HA even if they didn't particularly like it). I'm pretty sure that if TA gave Fame (i'm NOT saying it should), HA would've been totally empty out of a few guilds a while ago.
2) I totally disagree about 8v8 Tombs being an introduction to GvG, and if anything i consider 6v6 to me much more of one. It was better than TA, sure, because you had bigger team and learned not to be confused by many people, but that's about it (and with all the 3 ways map in 6v6 now, you have to manage fighting in as much people too). First, there is nearly never 8v8 big fights in GvG. It happens like 1 game out of 20. There is flag runners, gankers, splits, etc. You can beat a build out of tactics without having absolutely the best skills for the situation. Second, the ridiculous defense of HA builds can't even be compared to GvG, nor can the infinite energy monks due to channeling. An HA WoH Monk can be R9, if that's all he play he'll very likely be horrible as a GvG monk because suddenly he must learn how to manage energy a lot better, and heal under shutdown without 2 other monks and 2-3 support defense backing him. Good players in HA will adapt to GvG fast, but HA is DOESN'T teach people how to GvG. 6v6 is much more akin to GvG fights than 8v8 HA imo, with weaker, but more individually flexible backlines, etc. You also need better timed Adrenal Spikes or the like to kill because you have less people on offense, and people that want to spike must have it better because they can't overkill by 300 damage anymore and have spikes working even if 1 guy was shutdowned. I really think that 6v6 will teach people more about GvG basics than 8v8 HA ever did (and i'm not alone thinking that either. Though i'm not basing my opinion on his, Ensign made some pretty good posts about it on gwg).
3) I also disagree with all the skills you 'must' pack being the same in 8v8 as in 6v6. I played 6v6 a lot, last night and in the weekend (i got like 800 fame out of that weekend and held halls a couple of time). In fact, you don't need nearly as much interrupts as in 8v8. Why? Because killing the other team is an option! They don't have suddenly Fertile Season + 10 defensive spirits + Ghostly with Spell Breaker-Healing Seeds-Weapon of Shadows on. What we did every altar map was instead take out the other teams' backlines. Kill their monks, and then they can't heal hero and you just take it out, not interrupt it. It's something that just couldn't be done in 8v8 because doing so would take waaaay too much time because of all the extra defense. We held Halls 4 times in the weekend, beating PnH, QQ, OUT, etc. in HoH and we had 0 interrupt. None (well, ok we had 2 ~15s recharge KDs and that can count). We just killed every monk on the map and their heroes afterwards while they were having fun interrupting heroes. 6v6 is just different dynamic than 8v8 with different tactics. You don't require to interrupt a hero for 2 min straight when the team doesn't have about 40 skills dedicated to defense, game stalling and hero protection. You can actually fight and win with good target priorities and keeping an eye on which team needs to be taken care of atm, when to go cap, who to disrupt, etc. You win out of tactics and not because you packed every single defensive/interrupt skill available in your skill bar (i know it's exagerated, but just look at how a Bloodspike can stall a game with 6 monk elites and spirit spamming). The fact that all altars are 3 ways and short duration now (4 min broken, 4 min courtyard) changes strategies altogether too. Again last night we won in them simply by killing the monks of both teams while they were busy doing an hero fight on altar and trying to keep their heroes alive/interrupted.
4) And i do believe in the variety of build possible now for the point stated above. You have a lot of your 'fix' skill slots that just got freed because your opponents can't totally stall the game, not against 2 teams. A 6 players team can't pack enough defense to hold 2 teams of 12 and still kill. Killing heroes and players is more of an option now even if you're not running a spike team. We won till Sacred Chambers yesterday with only 1 skip running 2 Assassins, 1 Flourish spikes and 1 Coward! pressure (which owns in Relic runs btw), beating some good guilds along the way, and the only reason we lost in Sacred is because our relic runner at 1 min from end when it was 2-2 (with the other team winning if nothing happens) got stair bugged just before giving relic to ghost and the other team surrounded him. We didn't pack interrupts or insane defensive elites. We just killed people on our way there and adapted to different map tactics for who was a priority to kill, who to keep shutdowned, etc. Would you have considered running 2 sins before in 8v8 HA? There was close to no sin ever used there because of the ridiculous defense with constant aegis chain/wards making their combos all but pointless, but now they're usable. A lot of builds become usable because you won't face the same insane defense builds as before or instant kill spikes that were pretty hard to disrupt repeatedly (now a single PD Mesmer can make every spike fail). Ofc you can't judge everything off 4-5 days experience, but from what i saw and tested, a lot of otherwise unthinkable builds become quite viable because of 6v6 format.
I am wondering if this change will be because Anet will be adding something more at the release of Nightfall....
I think it was more to either -
A. Help nightfall purchasers "jump" into the HA scene easier or..Anet wants to please the new people buying their game,
B. To please all of the people that complain they cannot get groups.
This was an obvious attempt to somehow revitalize the stagnant HA scent of late. Now that the map updates are out, I dont believe new content will be added with nightfall. Im all but convinced these changes will drive away the people who currently play HA daily. Heck, Leteci already sold his account or something. Alot of the regular tombers are unhappy and for good reasons.
All that was truly needed to get tombs back in track were some TLC on the maps. People have been asking for this for ages (and not the minor changes made with this update). New maps would have done alot IMHO.
Shanaeri Rynale
06-10-2006, 16:45
There is a third possibility.
That with the sheer number of skills and professions an 8 way HA could not be made to balance without harming GvG and PvE. Therefore the only way to get the balance back was to reduce the team size.
Seems odd they would cancel one event in favor of this.
(lots of stuff)
Pat, I never got into HA yet, but I find your case is pretty convincing on paper. I was there long enough to get exposed to several of the current gimmick builds, and get a sense for how the game mechanics were balanced there, and I think 6v6 sounds like it will be more dynamic and perhaps even more fun (I was totally turned off by HA, but plan to give it another look now).
One thing I was curious about.. as a newbie who has never GvG'd.. what prevents the 8v8 in GvG from devolving into a matter of these ultra-defense HA builds you mention in your post? Is it just a matter of the maps and objectives not favoring that playstyle?
Patccmoi
07-10-2006, 00:52
One thing I was curious about.. as a newbie who has never GvG'd.. what prevents the 8v8 in GvG from devolving into a matter of these ultra-defense HA builds you mention in your post? Is it just a matter of the maps and objectives not favoring that playstyle?
Yes. GvG has one main objective, which is kill the GL. Note that in theory you don't even have to face the other team once to achieve it (ofc you will!)
Then you have flag that you cap and that gives you Morale Boosts. Maps are large and there is NPCs around for both teams, you can split, kill NPCs, etc. When VoD comes (after 20 min mark if game isn't over) all NPCs come out to fight at flag stand, and everyone gets +25% damage and -25% max health, so if you gained a NPC advantage before you have an easier time here (assuming you're not far behind DP-wise).
The thing is, GvG has multiple key points making splits and the like an option. If you play overly defensive, there is little chance you can be defensive all over the map (though some builds were kinda designed for it and worked to some extent). Just like spike teams, though viable and frequent, aren't as much of a problem as in 8v8 HA because of the option to split and force them to run around the map, having a harder time getting clean spikes. But then spike teams have their own strategies to counter that, etc.
I really suggest you Obs some GvG games. You might be a little confused at start, but just ask in Obs chat questions simply. People there tend to flame people saying stupid stuff, but usually if you just ask a question someone will be glad to answer. You'll notice that the fight is rarely 8v8 and that there is people running a little around the map, carrying flag, killing NPCs, etc. In GvG, you can often compensate for a lack of skills (as in skills in your bar, not player skill) by tactical moves, something that is hardly doable in most HA maps. Just like you might lose to a team you could easily beat in a straight 8v8 because they used the map better and managed to screw your battle plan.
Ectos N Shards
07-10-2006, 01:21
The sad thing is, Anet is seeing more people in their districts and thinks its more people interested. But in fact, its just role players and casual gamers coming to check it out.
They probably made it permanent because they thought people LOVED it last 6v6, but again, in fact it was most likely because of the double fame.
Razor junior
07-10-2006, 14:45
Maybe introduce another 6 v6 anera for like Unranked to rank 3 players and have Heroes Ascent back to normal having Rank 3+ Players
Crabtree
07-10-2006, 16:21
Maybe when 6v6 popularity dies down they'll lower it to 3v3 with triple fame. I personally can't wait.
Second day into the change and the number of districts in HA is approximiately the same and before. There are people who haven't tried the new HA yet, can we come to the conclusion that the change isn't as attractive as ArenaNet thought it would be?
Think about FA in the weekend event were you got double faction. It was very popular during the event and one of the things they changed was that you can go in with PvP characters. Surely people playing FA will have more diversity and creativity in builds, and attract more people to play in it because of this, but now look at it. People say 6v6 will make people rethink their builds and HA will be more creative and not as stale as before, but I see it much like FA.
HA was stale, boring? Big change to FA didn't change FA, why would a change to HA?
@David, the long post of yours is great. While I share the same thoughts, I couldn't have possibly made a good post like that.
After a couple days of never being able to get a post through thanks to the forums problems over the past few days I finally can respond.
1st off, Pat hit quite few thinks on the head back in post #69.
But skill means nothing if you don't have the right tools to work with.
This is utter crap. Do a Relic run with no speed buffs or snares/knockdowns. It can be done, just by changing up tactics and using pressure.
They will pack on the map utility skills they need and then devise a killing strategy with what's left.
Which is *** backwards. As in my previous comment and in some of Pat's, it is possible to get through maps without your precious utility skills by changing tactics. If some skills can serve mutiple purposes that's fine and lends to their strength.
The other way teams will go is to pack tons and tons of altar utility in the build, and then try and survive their way to Halls. These will be a minority to make it now, unlike couple day ago when holding builds seem to be dominant.
After a couple days of never being able to get a post through thanks to the forums problems over the past few days I finally can respond.
1st off, Pat hit quite few thinks on the head back in post #69.
This is utter crap. Do a Relic run with no speed buffs or snares/knockdowns. It can be done, just by changing up tactics and using pressure.
Which is *** backwards. As in my previous comment and in some of Pat's, it is possible to get through maps without your precious utility skills by changing tactics. If some skills can serve mutiple purposes that's fine and lends to their strength.
These will be a minority to make it now, unlike couple day ago when holding builds seem to be dominant.
You can do relic runs without snares and stuff but against a team that has them it can get quite difficult. It's an alter map, say you were to fight in Broken Tower, according to your way of thinking you can win against teams without the utilities for altar maps, not what are the chances of you capturing that altar when you don't have utilities to counter interrupts nor do you have a good amount of interrupts to begin with?
rideyellowbus
07-10-2006, 19:28
when will anet make ha 1 on 1 wow lol
David Holtzman
07-10-2006, 20:47
While some of your points are valid, others i don't agree with.
Ok, now that I can FINALLY reply, here we go.
1) HA wasn't a place where casual players could experience the best of GW. Casual players couldn't do anything in HA because all they could ever join was very bad PuGs that took forever to form and disbanded at first loss.
Do you really expect that to change? I find it extremely unlikely that the same rank psychology will simply dissappear due to the reduction of party sizes. Now instead of not being able to get into ranked 8 man groups, they won't be able to get into ranked 6 man groups. I rather think the group size irrelevant to this situation.
I'm pretty sure that if TA gave Fame (i'm NOT saying it should), HA would've been totally empty out of a few guilds a while ago.
I doubt it. TA is simply not an interesting format. Straight up anihilation is fun, but it quickly gets old as you really are only doing the same thing over and over with no variation. If TA were really that fun on its own it would have many more dedicated people. It doesn't, though.
2) I totally disagree about 8v8 Tombs being an introduction to GvG, and if anything i consider 6v6 to me much more of one. It was better than TA, sure, because you had bigger team and learned not to be confused by many people, but that's about it (and with all the 3 ways map in 6v6 now, you have to manage fighting in as much people too). First, there is nearly never 8v8 big fights in GvG.
I'm not really arguing for playstyle similarities (although there are some) but more for the fundamental concept of organizing people and observing skills at work in the 8man format. Some of the skills in this game only shine in small fights, some only in large ones. How then are people supposed to know what works well in the big ones, if they can never otherwise experience them?
As to 8v8 fights, those happen ALL THE TIME in GvG. In fact, the 8 man push is basically what modern GvG is built around.
(and i'm not alone thinking that either. Though i'm not basing my opinion on his, Ensign made some pretty good posts about it on gwg).
I've spoken at length with Ensign. Suffice it to say, I disagree with him on a number of points and think that the evidence is already showing me to have predicted correctly.
3) I also disagree with all the skills you 'must' pack being the same in 8v8 as in 6v6.
Necessary skills has nothing to do with the number of people, it has to do with the format of maps. You need certain skills to cap altars. Period. There's no tactic or move that will let you get around that aspect. Trust me, we've tried them all. If you don't have interrupts, you lose the cap war. If you don't have the ability to stop KD and deal with seeking rangers and all other sorts of altar utility, you lose. That's just the way altars work.
You win out of tactics and not because you packed every single defensive/interrupt skill available in your skill bar (i know it's exagerated, but just look at how a Bloodspike can stall a game with 6 monk elites and spirit spamming). The fact that all altars are 3 ways and short duration now (4 min broken, 4 min courtyard) changes strategies altogether too.
I don't know if you've ever watched us in obsmode, but that's always how we play. And after holding halls not 4 times but 400 times, you learn what you can and cannot do without. You simply cannot do without Altar utility if you expect to win consistently. That is not a subject for debate, it is simply the way the game works. Even if you try to win by killing the enemy off, they have a lot of sigs to burn through (sometimes even hardrez) and a morale boost at 50. And if the other team simply goes and kills the Ghostly while you work on the holding team, you either play the cap game or lose. And even if you do win, that puts you in the position of holding an altar. You won't be able to kill off the backlines of whoever is 2v1ing you, I guarantee it. You have 3 options: you can pray someone else caps before 2, you can interrupt/bodyblock, or you can hold. The first option is luck based and the second 2 involve the utility I mentioned an inability to get around.
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Which is *** backwards. As in my previous comment and in some of Pat's, it is possible to get through maps without your precious utility skills by changing tactics. If some skills can serve mutiple purposes that's fine and lends to their strength.
You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Go try and hold halls without the utility I've mentioned. I've got quite a bit of experience holding halls. I've seen what happens when teams don't bring the necessary utility. I'm not debating it in this thread, I'm informing you of my observations. You can disagree, but just keep in mind that you're disagreeing with reality.
These will be a minority to make it now, unlike couple day ago when holding builds seem to be dominant.
Not really. Necspike is only barely a holding build these days (what with 3-4 attack skills per necro. That's more than most warriors!) and I can't think of any other build offhand that would qualify as a holding build. People played mostly builds designed for playing the capgame, and they can absolutely keep doing that. What's more, since you only have 6 characters you can't afford skills specifically to counter their interuptors. Not unless you too run a build designed to play the capgame, at least, and that brings us right back to where we are now.
lmaoplanes
07-10-2006, 22:26
You simply cannot do without Altar utility if you expect to win consistently.
You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Go try and hold halls without the utility I've mentioned. I've got quite a bit of experience holding halls. I've seen what happens when teams don't bring the necessary utility.
So basically, the argument is that you cannot 'hold' halls anymore since you have less skills slots now. If we pull this to the extreme, what you used to do is bring a lot of defensive skills to capture and hold altars, and then just hope for the best in the non-altar maps. Finally after playing a lot you get to the halls, get lucky and win it, and then farm points until you get bored. You won't lose much once you hold the halls, because your build is so defensive.
I haven't played much in HA (R3 mostly non IWAY here), but I've fought some very defensive builds and these were definately boring fights (especially if there is an altar involved).
So I think you've nailed the problem. Maybe builds were getting too defensive and ANET wanted the halls not to be held by the same team too many times in a row (i.e. none). Hence the 6v6 format, where your choice of skill slots will matter a lot, and player skill too. Defensive builds will happen but will quickly lose in 6v6v6v6v6v6 maps.
Some of these arguments seem confused because they fail to recognize that all teams, and not just one, will be limited to the new six person format. It almost seems to me as though folks are complaining that they are somehow disadvantaged by this, when in fact that is a limitation that all teams will equally face.
Oh, and yes, some people do find the TA format enjoyable. Sorry if our opinion on that matter has been deemed incorrect by the forum patrols. ;)
So basically, the argument is that you cannot 'hold' halls anymore since you have less skills slots now. If we pull this to the extreme, what you used to do is bring a lot of defensive skills to capture and hold altars, and then just hope for the best in the non-altar maps. Finally after playing a lot you get to the halls, get lucky and win it, and then farm points until you get bored. You won't lose much once you hold the halls, because your build is so defensive.
I haven't played much in HA (R3 mostly non IWAY here), but I've fought some very defensive builds and these were definately boring fights (especially if there is an altar involved).
So I think you've nailed the problem. Maybe builds were getting too defensive and ANET wanted the halls not to be held by the same team too many times in a row (i.e. none). Hence the 6v6 format, where your choice of skill slots will matter a lot, and player skill too. Defensive builds will happen but will quickly lose in 6v6v6v6v6v6 maps.
iA didn't run defensive builds, at least I've only ever seen ranger spike and the crazy 2 warrior, smiter, pd mesmer, cg ranger, water ele and the dual monk backline.
David Holtzman
08-10-2006, 02:43
Some of these arguments seem confused because they fail to recognize that all teams, and not just one, will be limited to the new six person format. It almost seems to me as though folks are complaining that they are somehow disadvantaged by this, when in fact that is a limitation that all teams will equally face.
If I were to break the left leg of everyone in the world, it would be equally disadvantageous. I don't think it follows then that it is alright for me to do so. With regards to HA, it doesn't matter that everyone is disadvantaged. That just means the format becomes more luck based. I prefer to play GW, not Dice Rolling XTreme. If you have to pick and choose which sort of map formats to work towards, you just have to hope you don't run into someone built for the map you aren't on the map you aren't. I rather dislike games where my success is more based on prayer than player action. That's part of the reason I hate altar maps.
Oh, and yes, some people do find the TA format enjoyable. Sorry if our opinion on that matter has been deemed incorrect by the forum patrols. ;)
Some people do. In general people do not. I don't see why you should act offended.
I rather dislike games where my success is more based on prayer than player action. That's part of the reason I hate altar maps.Isn't that more a problem with the fact that it's a 3 teams map than the fact that it has an altar? I actually liked Broken Tower last week, it was just you and one other team. No 3rd party with totally unpredictable behavior. No "Team Red caps the altar and team Yellow decides it's a good idea to gank team Blue" nonsense.
Sure, there is always a chance factor in it, like "will Guardian allow my ghostly to block the Savage Shot and cap or not". But this kind of luck is always present, in nearly every kind of game. And in the end, most of the time this thing is not game deciding.
David Holtzman
09-10-2006, 10:03
Isn't that more a problem with the fact that it's a 3 teams map than the fact that it has an altar?
That absolutely is another problem, I agree. However it is a separate problem (see Scarred in 3 way anihilation for a great example of luck based on 3 ways).
Sure, there is always a chance factor in it, like "will Guardian allow my ghostly to block the Savage Shot and cap or not". But this kind of luck is always present, in nearly every kind of game. And in the end, most of the time this thing is not game deciding.
There's certainly that aspect, but how about, "Did the teams enterring show up with 2 seeking rangers and a PD mesmer each?" There's a totally luck based aspect of altars. Especially in 6 man, you end up hoping that the other team doesn't pack much altar utility because you simply don't have the skill slots to devote to anti-interrupt utility. If they do, you're pretty much screwed. That's no fun at all and leads to a far less interesting or enjoyable game (just look at how many fewer people there are playing).
Some people do. In general people do not. I don't see why you should act offended.
Not offended. Simply pointing out to everyone else the way in which you seem to believe you are qualified to speak for all people, in general, when in fact you are simply projecting your personal opinion.
Case in point: Gale has already stated that the primary reason for the changes in HA format was player feedback. People wanted the change, and most of them view this as a positive thing. Gale / arena.net is probably in a better position to evluate the reaction of the "majority" than you or I.
So apparently there are quite a lot of players, the majority it would seem, that do not view having a six-man team (48 skills..) as walking around with one leg. There are probably lots of teams playing as we speak that are not only having fun, but also winning far more often than they lose (meaning luck is not the dominant factor in their overall gameplay).
In my somewhat limited experience with a.net so far, it seems to me that the designers do enjoy shaking things up now and then, if they feel that some content is getting a stagnant. This seems to be particularly true when it comes to competitive or pvp gameplay. I would be surprised if anyone would argue the point that HA was quite stagnant. So a change like this would be quite in line with the way they approach things, and whether one prefers 8-man or 6-man teams in HA, I don't see any good reason why you could not adapt to one or the other and enjoy either setting.
There's certainly that aspect, but how about, "Did the teams enterring show up with 2 seeking rangers and a PD mesmer each?"That's a really defensive tactic but in a 1on1 setting there's not really anything wrong with it, right? This team might be good at interrupting a ghostly but it's not gonna help them much if you decide to kill them all. Ok, it helps to get a moral boost every 2 minutes so if you're only slightly better they might still win. But after that match they'll have a really hard time with a relic run, except they have all the utility skills for those maps as well. And if they do they really have a problem with a simple deathmatch map.
So it's all fair and balaces out unless they know for sure that they'll play only altar maps and nothing else ... WAIT!
And here's my all time favorite HA annoyance (except for 3 team maps):
The final map is always a altar map and nothing else after that. And it's way too easy to get there without playing most of the maps that lead there. So last week, when it was still 8vs8 a very easy way to fix most HA problems would have been to make halls 1on1 and cycle the objective from altar to deathmatch to relic run. That would have totally eliminated holding builds because there's nothing to hold. But now you can't have all the utility skills for all kind of maps on a single team so there's your luck factor again. :angry: But IMHO that only means that 6vs6 is a bad thing, not that altar maps are a bad thing.
I don't mind 6 vs. 6 HA, because...
1) HA was basically dead before the change
2) 6 vs. 6 promotes personal skill better
3) HA maps were too small for 8 vs. 8 battles
4) There are less 'lame' builds in 6 vs. 6
It's true that it's more likely to play against anti-build, but I rather take that than playing against iway or some lame *** holding build in every other map.
It's also true that 6 vs. 6 doesn't change the broken HA mechanism, although generally it makes the playing experience more enjoyable. It's not too fun to play the game which rewards the team who can intterupt the enemy heroes the longest (although it's not as bad now).
I'm enjoying the change in format.
I've seen a lot of strange but effective formats more and the usual cookie cutters as well.
I think its good for the game getting more people playing. Who cares if you can't hold halls, more people enjoying pvp is probably best for Guild Wars. Anyway, anet keeps a pretty good eye on their game and if another few tweaks are needed, theyll surely make them.
You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
It's not too fun to play the game which rewards the team who can intterupt the enemy heroes the longest (although it's not as bad now).
That aspect would have changed anyway when nightfall comes out. Song of Concentration will be in virtually every team.
I don't mind 6 vs. 6 HA, because...
1) HA was basically dead before the changeFunny, it looked pretty alive to me.
2) 6 vs. 6 promotes personal skill betterWhich promotes the so called "rank-elitism" that everone around here seems to hate that much, because the team can't compensate for a not so experienced team member like it could before. And indeed my guild stoped taking one interested but inexperienced PvE player from our alliance into our teams.
3) HA maps were too small for 8 vs. 8 battlesNo they are not. A good example for that were relic runs where everyone spreaded out. On altar maps it simply doesn't matter how big the map is, everyone fights at the altar. Another perfect example is the now defunct map Burial Mounds: It's a map designed for 6 teams with 8 members each plus a priest and a ghostly = 60 people and space to spare. And where was everyone fighting? In the tiny space between the two starting points.
4) There are less 'lame' builds in 6 vs. 6Funny, didn't notice that. But first: Please define "lame". I'm guessing you'll name builds like IWAY, VIMWAY and bloodspike. I have no idea why these builds are considered lame. And guess what: They're still around! And there's more VIMWAY than ever before.
It's true that it's more likely to play against anti-build, but I rather take that than playing against iway or some lame *** holding build in every other map.Unless it's the final map (aka HoH) meeting a holding build means nothing. Probably makes it easier to win and that's all. And even in the HoH it's next to impossible to hold, if both team Red and team Yellow are halfway competent. Unless they both have two Seeking Arrow Rangers and are doing all the holding for you.
Edit:
Song of Concentration will be in virtually every team.What he said. Good luck interrupting two ghostly heros plus at least two Songs of concentration. (And before someone mentions Psychic Distraction which can interrupt everything because it disables the skill: "Monster only" skills cannot be disabled, try interrupting the ghostly with blackout: It won't work!)
I think its good for the game getting more people playing. Who cares if you can't hold halls, more people enjoying pvp is probably best for Guild Wars.Are you sure that there are more people playing HA now? Looking at the European districts I can't really see any significant increase.
Funny, it looked pretty alive to me.
Maybe it did for you, but didn't for most of the GW PvP population. Famefarmers, noobs & a few dedicated HA guilds doesn't sound as a place of high level PvP to me. Tombs died for me a year ago.
Which promotes the so called "rank-elitism" that everone around here seems to hate that much, because the team can't compensate for a not soexperienced team member like it could before. And indeed my guild stoped taking one interested but inexperienced PvE player from our alliance into our teams.
That's not a valid argument nor I didn't mean that. I could claim that it's easier to accept new players, as you see immediately do they deserve their spot or not. Generally, if you're good, you want that others can see that in game too.
No they are not. A good example for that were relic runs where everyone spreaded out. On altar maps it simply doesn't matter how big the map is, everyone fights at the altar. Another perfect example is the now defunct map Burial Mounds: It's a map designed for 6 teams with 8 members each plus a priest and a ghostly = 60 people and space to spare. And where was everyone fighting? In the tiny space between the two starting points.
Ok, that's a stupid argument from my part. Let's just say I just dislike the play where it matter's the most to leech off as much mana as possible with channeling.
Funny, didn't notice that. But first: Please define "lame". I'm guessing you'll name builds like IWAY, VIMWAY and bloodspike. I have no idea why these builds are considered lame. And guess what: They're still around! And there's more VIMWAY than ever before.Unless it's the final map (aka HoH) meeting a holding build means nothing. Probably makes it easier to win and that's all. And even in the HoH it's next to impossible to hold, if both team Red and team Yellow are halfway competent. Unless they both have two Seeking Arrow Rangers and are doing all the holding for you.
You have no idea why people consider vimway lame? In my opinion, what I consider lame, are for example all holding builds with stupid amounts of defense. They're lame because it's boring as hell to try to break through their defense, even if the players are bad. As there no other objectives than to eliminate the opposing party in most maps, you have to go and kill them or resign.
HA will always have fotm's. Yet, I dunno you plays vimway in 6 vs. 6, as it's so pathetic.
Servant of Kali
09-10-2006, 22:58
that is going to kill HA, noone liked HA except for a few ppl..
It always amazed me.... people do see something doesnt work, yet when someone tries to fix it, they instantly object, complain, whine, troll etc.
As you noticed, no one played HA except few people. Im one of those who stopped playing HA over a yr ago. Boredom. Grind. Lack of builds. Long times to make a group. I called HA the "pvp farming area". Slow metagame changes or mostly none at all.
So yeah, any change is good. Sure, Anet removed one of my fav HA maps and no, i still wont play HA because the other boring maps are there.. but then again plenty of other people might play HA more now than before.
Freekey Zeekey
10-10-2006, 00:42
It always amazed me.... people do see something doesnt work, yet when someone tries to fix it, they instantly object, complain, whine, troll etc.
As you noticed, no one played HA except few people. Im one of those who stopped playing HA over a yr ago. Boredom. Grind. Lack of builds. Long times to make a group. I called HA the "pvp farming area". Slow metagame changes or mostly none at all.
So yeah, any change is good. Sure, Anet removed one of my fav HA maps and no, i still wont play HA because the other boring maps are there.. but then again plenty of other people might play HA more now than before.
By eveything you said..I will kindly ask you not to post anymore because you serve no purpose to this. Before you get mad at me just by what you said that you dont play tombs no more makes you not apart of this discussion at all..your blissfull for a change that your not taking apart in hahaha. And you know what you probly one of em dudes who anet do listen to to make a change like this...go back to Witmans Folly and farm some break hammers or something...Im beggining to dislike this whole community cuz of people like this that dont do something but are all for changes..Am I the only one that sees this person stupidity in his post or am I on something?
I really didnt want to start a reply with a flame but you sir are seriosly not with the program and you made a understatement with out any research..
It always amazed me.... people do see something doesnt work, yet when someone tries to fix it, they instantly object, complain, whine, troll etc.
As you noticed, no one played HA except few people. Im one of those who stopped playing HA over a yr ago. Boredom. Grind. Lack of builds. Long times to make a group. I called HA the "pvp farming area". Slow metagame changes or mostly none at all.
So yeah, any change is good. Sure, Anet removed one of my fav HA maps and no, i still wont play HA because the other boring maps are there.. but then again plenty of other people might play HA more now than before.
Enlighten me on why 8v8 HA didn't work?
David Holtzman
10-10-2006, 01:55
That's a really defensive tactic but in a 1on1 setting there's not really anything wrong with it, right?
Other than that it's boring, degenerative, and in general no fun to play, nothing that I can see is wrong with it.
This team might be good at interrupting a ghostly but it's not gonna help them much if you decide to kill them all. Ok, it helps to get a moral boost every 2 minutes so if you're only slightly better they might still win.
Not really, all they need to do is pck stupid amounts of defense into the build. We actually ran a build like this when factions came out and held halls quite a bit. We ended up giving up on it because we liked playing our two warrior pressure build a lot better.
But after that match they'll have a really hard time with a relic run, except they have all the utility skills for those maps as well.
Well, it's actually pretty easy to just 2 man stair block and hold on with lots of defense while you send 3 or so people off to make attempts at their relic. Sacred is a bit trickier, but in general that map is more skipped than any other, so the chances are low it'll be a concern.
: But IMHO that only means that 6vs6 is a bad thing, not that altar maps are a bad thing.
6v6 is definitely a bad thing for the reasons you've stated (among others), but altar maps are bad because the gamestyle is degenerative. It quickly becomes just a war of who can pack the most altar utility into a build wins. That sort of game is uninteresting, unfun, and wrecks competitive play. The babysitting mechanic is for 5 year olds whose parents go out, not for a competitive game.
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Maybe it did for you, but didn't for most of the GW PvP population. Famefarmers, noobs & a few dedicated HA guilds doesn't sound as a place of high level PvP to me. Tombs died for me a year ago.
Empeh that's just silly. That's like an HA player arguing that because they don't like GvG (nothing but ladder farmers, noobs, and a few dedicated GvG guilds) that GvG is "dead". What nonsense.
You have no idea why people consider vimway lame? In my opinion, what I consider lame, are for example all holding builds with stupid amounts of defense. They're lame because it's boring as hell to try to break through their defense, even if the players are bad. As there no other objectives than to eliminate the opposing party in most maps, you have to go and kill them or resign.
The only reason those teams exist is because of Altars. Holding an altar takes stupid amounts of defense. Reward people for playing defensively and you wind up with defensive builds. This has nothing at all to do with team size. I find it somewhat interesting though that you can tell me that this is an issue for tombs but neglect GvG. In GvG you often have 10 minute stretches where no one scores a kill at all. I defy you to find that happen in any but a rare case in tombs. Even killing off a vimway or bloodspike happens in 2 to 4 minutes (that's how long it takes to make SIXTEEN kills, not one).
HA will always have fotm's. Yet, I dunno you plays vimway in 6 vs. 6, as it's so pathetic.
Every PvP style has Fotms. GvG was certainly FotMized when you ran your Dual Surge build. Who wasn't playing that or playing to counter it? Look at the previous seasons and Thumpers. Look at Airspike. Look at obspike this season. Obviously Fotms have nothing at all to do with teamsize (incidentally, NR/Tranq is the current Fotm in tombs proving beyond all doubt that Fotms will exist regardless of teamsize).
Ju Smurph
10-10-2006, 06:52
proving beyond all doubt that Fotms will exist regardless of teamsize).
There are even Fotm's in TA, just not as gimicky...
I seriously don't think the change is to make HA better or worse, but to make it a little more unique...
children of the sea
10-10-2006, 07:35
i am against the changes to heros ascent,and there are many reasons why.
since the change to 6vs6 heros ascent has become far less strategic than ever,and is more run by fotm builds than it ever was.It is at the point where pressure gimmick builds run ha,mainly dual smite and vimway.most battles now seem to come out as who ever can throw out the most damage rather than the team with more coordination or a better designed build.most of this is due to the fact that in 6vs6 a team cannot hold a decent backline while holding a good offense,so most teams are either unable to handle pressure,or unable to deal enough damage.
i have noticed the population decreasing in ha to less than what was there before the changes.the availability of pugs hasn't changes much at all,except now i have seen a few more unranked teams.So far all i have seen is the same elitism with even more gimmick builds and balanced builds even fewer than before.
heros ascent is no longer enjoyable for me to play,but maybe thats just me being the odd one out who didnt care about fame but just the competition.P am seriously considering quitting ha altogether and just doing gvg,since that seems to be the only form of pvp left involving strategy in an 8vs8 environment.
SilentVex
10-10-2006, 07:51
I completely agree with children of the sea. My guild never liked gvg, and now that HA is ruined...there's little motivation to keep playing. gg anet.
Empeh that's just silly. That's like an HA player arguing that because they don't like GvG (nothing but ladder farmers, noobs, and a few dedicated GvG guilds) that GvG is "dead". What nonsense.
Really? My opinion is based on my experience, others opinions & the fact that almost all competitive guilds play GvG. How many good HA guilds do you know? Is there any competition when you play HA, except that you get unlucky or ganked in altar maps?
The only reason those teams exist is because of Altars. Holding an altar takes stupid amounts of defense. Reward people for playing defensively and you wind up with defensive builds. This has nothing at all to do with team size. I find it somewhat interesting though that you can tell me that this is an issue for tombs but neglect GvG. In GvG you often have 10 minute stretches where no one scores a kill at all. I defy you to find that happen in any but a rare case in tombs. Even killing off a vimway or bloodspike happens in 2 to 4 minutes (that's how long it takes to make SIXTEEN kills, not one).
I did play 6 vs. 6 HA, yet I haven't a single 'lame' holding build, as it's impossible to pack a huge defense and enough offense to get kills in 6 vs. 6, so it has something to do with teamsize.
You see, in GvG things usually happen all the time. If team packs a stupid amount of defense, you can split off, kill npc's & confuse them. If they don't make a mistake, defend and you can't punish them for it, VoD comes at 20 minutes. ~~
Every PvP style has Fotms. GvG was certainly FotMized when you ran your Dual Surge build. Who wasn't playing that or playing to counter it? Look at the previous seasons and Thumpers. Look at Airspike. Look at obspike this season. Obviously Fotms have nothing at all to do with teamsize (incidentally, NR/Tranq is the current Fotm in tombs proving beyond all doubt that Fotms will exist regardless of teamsize).
My point exactly. What I mean was that how can vimway be a fotm, as it's so ****ing bad. :P
I did play 6 vs. 6 HA, yet I haven't a single 'lame' holding build, as it's impossible to pack a huge defense and enough offense to get kills in 6 vs. 6, so it has something to do with teamsize.
Yes, but mass interupt builds are still easy to make and use in HA. I have a build thats Ok at killing, but fits disortion on all the non monk characters, has room for alot of utility and still has 2x practised stance/seeking arrows rangers and 2 pd mesmers. Do you not call that lame?
That has more potential to hold for ages because simply they dont have room to counter all that, whereas 8v8 you do. All i have to do is get the motivation to run it properly, but i just cant be assed because 6v6 holds little entertainment for me.
I think this changes are good for the community as making ha fun and competitive. But seeing alot of experienced ppl whining and *****in about it I conclude that ppl don't want to be a noob again.
I remember when there is not alot of ppl that knew guildwars to these extent so most ppl are noobs. Most ppl have fun as they can bring thier own favorite characters in the arena at the same time having creativity being allowed. Now the ppl are knowledgable about the 8vs8 template most ppl used the cookie cutter builds to farm fame or hold halls. Most casual ppl quit HA because its boring, not fun and it seems like doing a chore. And when you are new in Ha that person will have to endure noob bashing/bullying, teacher scolding (ts/vent) or cookie cutter pug builds. This limits creativity and its like having the skill endure pain activated all times (pun intended) just to "enjoy" HA (competitively and personally).
6vs6 comes then its a new setting for pvp. Everybody becomes a noob again and some elitists cant endure this as the cookie cutters usually are not effective as before. They can't noob bash anymore as they are noobs themselves with all these whining and losing to some unique build they dont know about.
Anet doesnt want thier HA to be like WoW raiding that eventually makes alot of ppl quit the aspect of the game or the game as a whole. 6vs6 allows fun, creativity, competition and luck (unpredictable outcome, which ppl really like in movies, gambling and life) to coexist. Also they want to sell more copies of this game and they want HA to be part of thier promotion move.
These changes doesn't have any negative effect against new players which anet must capture if they want this game to be fun and successful.
Nekretaal
10-10-2006, 16:37
What we've learned so far.
(1) The change hasnt brought new players into HA to form parties. The number of players is about the same (maybe a little bigger but nothing special)
(2) However, there are more teams running and more different teams running
(3) It is a lot easier to get a guild group going in the new 6v6. I see a lot more lower rated guild groups.
(4) Cookie cutters are not going away, but forming a party is quicker.
(5) Almost everybody hates the fact that an early map that got removed, and almost everybody hates the new & early three-way altar match.
(6) Because of the early altar map, it is actually harder for noobs to get their rank three than before (despite the easier to form groups). This bodes ill for new players. and longtime HA player's rank emotes are safe from being cheapened.
ZiegDivine
10-10-2006, 17:11
Henchway is rampant. I'm sure that's exactly what ANet wanted ... to turn the entire game into a PvE instance.
Nurse With Wound
10-10-2006, 18:32
Henchway is rampant. I'm sure that's exactly what ANet wanted ... to turn the entire game into a PvE instance.
True that... but wait untill they will add customizable heroes. PVP arenas are dead. It will be just another form of pve, "kill some dude and his heroes". As everyone serious is quiting the game or moving to gvg exclusively.
lorekeeper
10-10-2006, 19:32
hey all
So me and my guild The Shattered Hand [TSH] were tombsing today for about 5 hours. We were having a real good time running our unique build.
Ill just try make a list of the nature of the builds we faced.
2 x bloodspikes in total
Z amount of smite builds 2 war/1 war+1sin/2sin/1x sin variations
X amount of sword warrior + melandrus + poison + trapper
Y amount of single warrior + Ele/A builds
A amount of pure Ele/A fire ele builds
B amount of dual surge single ele single warrior builds
C amount of hex builds with no warriors
D amount of hex builds with 1 warrior
E amount of vimway teams
Zero Iways (although im sure there were a couple of them)
Zero Rspike (although i do know some guilds were running them)
We all had a great time, i think the fun thing about our run today was the fact that everytime we lost and went back in, we learnt something more about the new metagame. i place less value on fame/time ratio and more on skill/fame ratio.
With the old 8 vs 8, the metagame had become to stale that old players like me got a little fed up of the stuff we would expect to see being done in tombs. Fame for me lost its quality, i didnt really learn anything from winning matches anymore. New builds in the 8 vs 8 days, were just needles in a haystack of fotm and gimmicks. And if i tried to run a build which had a monkline different to the established tombs backlines with some Random pugs, id get some very narrowminded comments from players.
Anyway the main thing that pushed players like me from tombs was most annoyingly yet most memorably... the abundance of iways and bloodspikes. Which in a 1 vs 1 environment were potentially fun fights depending on our teams ability to do wat was needed to win. However, on particular maps, the iway or bspike teams would behave in such a lame way that it just didnt make us wanna come back to play more, regardless of whether we won or not. Winning is not fun if you waste 15+min to win burial mounds and then another 15+min scarred earth. Specially when the behaviour of these teams is only to delay your victory... this is such unsportsmanlike behaviour i just couldnt stand to see it.
My thoughts on 6 vs 6
When i read about the map changes i was struck with the fear that tombs would still be full of this gamesmanship which repulses me.Im really pleased to say that in the 5 hours we spent in tombs today, we didnt once encounter a team behaving in this manner.
Broken tower is the first source of frustration for teams.
The greatest complaint i can see people making (not me personally) about broken tower is its difficulty level compared to Underworld. Jumping to a fight with 2 other teams is already a big jump up from 1 vs 1, but also introducing the mechanic of capping an altar is rather a big task for the less experienced among us. My friend jiloc defends this tough learning curve, with his own good arguments, but i would argue for a less harsh learning curve.
Im probably stating the obvious, many of you might be thinking.. DUH?! But come on, any tournament based competition is meant to progress from lower lvl difficulty matches gradually up to high lvl difficulty matches. Its seems like at the moment the only people good at broken tower are the ones who are good at capping courtyward and HOH... but shouldnt the success thru experience mechanic be working upwards instead of downwards?!
For the most experienced of us out there, broken tower tactics are tactics we are all familiar with. However, wat about those players who dont have as much altar map experience? Dont forget that Broken tower 2 team matches are a totally different experience to 3 team matches. The only 3+ team altar matches any team would face, are courtyard and HOH. You cannot assume that ALL teams have GOOD experience on these sort of matches. There are teams full of players who have NEVER been to courtyard, and most certainly teams who have NEVER been to HOH.
Moving on to the only other map that could potentially cause problems...
scarred earth
The lever allowing a 3rd team to enter the fight is one that i saw as potential for some upset. But i must say that the scarred earth matches we fought today were great fun. Not famewise, cos they still took over 10min to finish, but for sheer strategy and team movement. And like i said earlier i value player skill/fame ratio rather than fame gained/time ratio.
I have great respect for [iA] as a tombs guild and we were paired up with them on scarred earth with some unknown guilds or pugs fighting in the adjacent area. [iA] scored the first kill, but we managed to gain the upperhand and we forced them into a retreat scoring successive kills on them. However we took note that we would have to prepare to be joined by the victorious team from the other fight.
We were forced into a running battle with [iA], each team trying not to leave their backs exposed to the 3rd team. They finally came in as we once again gained the upperhand against [iA] but as they came in, [iA] retreated out of the fight. So we were left to fight a new opponent while [iA] recovered. We were then faced with the horrible prospect of being caught up in a battle with this 3rd team, with a full strength full energy [iA] just waiting to pounce on us. Which they did. Most of our team saw [iA] advancing into our rear, but one of our monks was not so fast to react and collapsed under the pressure of 2 teams. Our 2nd healer (not a monk) collapsed soon after and we decided to resign from the match.
definately a GG.
It was such a fun battle to fight. We had to constantly switch our positions in accordance to the 3rd team, and whoever won, was the team who had the best mobility and ability to react as a team. It involved map awareness, radar awareness, position awareness that is often not involved in tombs matches.
I have no complaints about Scarred earth anymore. Specially since we are seeing less teams who benefit from the running game. And especially since a new type of strategy is being introduced into tombs. A strategy that will once again help separate the good teams from the bad teams. A strategy that will provide all tombs players with new skills to carry into their guilds in all types of pvp and not just tombs.
I think Anet should introduce at least once more 1vs1 match, in a new environment, like the old burial mounds, with an obelisk, and priests. The relic run should be 3rd, introducing a map where fighting was not the only aim. Then broken tower as the 4th map in rotation.
this way you earn more fame from fighting tough fights like broken tower and scarred earth. Rewarding players for finishing tough maps is wat will make them come back for more... As things stand at the moment, inexperienced teams who have no success at broken tower, will get fed up of only winning fame from successful Underworld fights.
Harsh learning curves turn away the casual crowd. Tombs with a hard rotation of maps will be full of the ''elite'' who have much more experience. If it looks as though you cannot win fame unless you have lots of experience, then we will lose wat is one of the most important resources to the pvp community... new players.
sorry to type for so long, i dont post very often so lets just say ive been saving up for a rainy day.
thanks for your time
Lorekeeper
You can disagree, but just keep in mind that you're disagreeing with reality. No, I'm disagreeing with your delusions and/or lack of foresight.
You constantly rant on how you don't like the a rock, paper, scissors style of game play, but the fact is it was already here. With each additional expansion/chapter it'll become more apparent as the cycle gains speed.
What's more, since you only have 6 characters you can't afford skills specifically to counter their interuptors. Not unless you too run a build designed to play the capgame, at least, and that brings us right back to where we are now.
The game is about to see big shake up with Nightfall. Interupts and knockdowns are going to have even more direct counters to add to the handlefull in game already. Several new skills that really make daze an even more viable condition against caster, some of which still are usefull enough even against groups without casters.
For example, in a month we could easily see a spike or pressure build that can get through elimination maps just fine. When it hits the altar maps it shows a counter cap game under current dropping Ward of Stability or "Brace Yourself!" with Song of Concentration on the ghostly. Then try to maintain their ghostly long eneough to get the cap and hold.
****hmmmm this could make another nice thread in itself****
Other than that it's boring, degenerative, and in general no fun to play, nothing that I can see is wrong with it.Everything seems to be degenerative in your eyes.
but altar maps are bad because the gamestyle is degenerative. It quickly becomes just a war of who can pack the most altar utility into a build wins. That sort of game is uninteresting, unfun, and wrecks competitive play. The babysitting mechanic is for 5 year olds whose parents go out, not for a competitive game.
We've walked this road in the past. This is the real problem with HA, not the 6v6 or 8v8 arguement. Allowing people to plan for one end game or to rotate it should be the real arguement.
@Nekretaal. Would you say there are a few more teams actively in the HA fighting cutting down on some of the early map skips as well?
SilentVex
10-10-2006, 23:14
(2) However, there are more teams running and more different teams running
(3) It is a lot easier to get a guild group going in the new 6v6. I see a lot more lower rated guild groups.
There are more teams running, and more guild teams running because half of them are freakin' henchway. Find an alter match that doesn't have a henchway on it. I can't. And for the guilds that were built to run with groups of 8, they're now having to make multiple people sit out because there is no room. That seriously blows.
Freekey Zeekey
12-10-2006, 00:47
if there is no variation or completely a new arena in nightfall and tombs remains 6v6 its going to ruin any ideas on making any custom builds for 6v6 tombs using 10 proffesions....
people rarely use assasins and ritualists when it was 8v8 (apart Ritualist Dual/Tripple Spirit spamming which aint really a custom Ritualist build at all) and even less in 6v6....apart from assasins blossiming in gvg whats the point of these 2 proffesions other then to satisfy a pver who will never do pvp in his/her guildwars career.
on a side note its 7:36 PM EST time in Philadelphia, im currently logged into guildwars with 4 international districs (where those do hardcore tombs go) id 1-2 is full of iway/vimway/smite then regular dis for those who will never get past Broken Tower. internation dis 3 is quiet and about 50% less populated then id 1 and 2 with a guy from Team Luna trying to recruit for TA/RA ok..go figure on that...pretty ironic eh :)
Time is 7:38 EST im in Internation Dis 4 where the much better crowd that will probly see a Gold map ...its 75% less populated then Id 1, 2, and 3 with a major group of 4 players from Team Luna, a guy from War Machine and 1 more person with a familiar name.....all the euros are asleep so im bored and as my little time chart states there arent any american doing this neather...i mean with only 2 out of 4 active districst..Maybe team do play in american nub hour that gona begin in about 4-5 hours but I wont know cuz Ill be sleeping anyway for early wake up in the AM do to Life.
anyway..*shrugs*
p.s. i hope anet takes a look at the petition thread and/or is in the process of making a better variation to a 8v8 pvp enviroment in Nightfall other then GVG..altho GvG is loads of fun and also rewarding (in its own way) some players do have a strong passion for tombing which is drifting away :)
Ciao love ya XOXO
SilentVex
12-10-2006, 03:50
p.s. i hope anet takes a look at the petition thread and/or is in the process of making a better variation to a 8v8 pvp enviroment in Nightfall other then GVG..altho GvG is loads of fun and also rewarding (in its own way) some players do have a strong passion for tombing which is drifting away :)
Some guilds hated gvg, in favor of much shorter and quicker paced matches in HA (my guild, for instance). These are the people being completely hosed by this whole switch - the hardcore HAers. GvG is too...nitpicky... Too much worrying about flags and morale and ganks and pushes and retreats and npcs and splits ...for 25 minutes. At the same time, switching to 6v6 just completely changes the spirit of HA, moving it a step toward TA, and changing the focus away from team vs team killing to 3 team tactics (via the map changes). Anet, just give us 8 people killing 8 people, honestly. I'm fairly sure anet knows just how bad they screwed up - driving away tons more people than they will attract - it's just a matter of whether they will admit it now.
JodoKast
12-10-2006, 08:51
people rarely use assasins and ritualists when it was 8v8 (apart Ritualist Dual/Tripple Spirit spamming which aint really a custom Ritualist build at all) and even less in 6v6....apart from assasins blossiming in gvg whats the point of these 2 proffesions other then to satisfy a pver who will never do pvp in his/her guildwars career.
There has never been as many assassin in HA as there are now, you see MANY A/W flourish/coward/temple strike sin with dual smite team setup in 6v6
Oh and satisfying pvpers IS a huge point for a new profession btw , seeing as there are far more pve players than pvp
on a side note its 7:36 PM EST time in Philadelphia, im currently logged into guildwars with 4 international districs (where those do hardcore tombs go) id 1-2 is full of iway/vimway/smite then regular dis for those who will never get past Broken Tower. internation dis 3 is quiet and about 50% less populated then id 1 and 2 with a guy from Team Luna trying to recruit for TA/RA ok..go figure on that...pretty ironic eh :)
Time is 7:38 EST im in Internation Dis 4 where the much better crowd that will probly see a Gold map ...its 75% less populated then Id 1, 2, and 3 with a major group of 4 players from Team Luna, a guy from War Machine and 1 more person with a familiar name.....all the euros are asleep so im bored and as my little time chart states there arent any american doing this neather...i mean with only 2 out of 4 active districst..Maybe team do play in american nub hour that gona begin in about 4-5 hours but I wont know cuz Ill be sleeping anyway for early wake up in the AM do to Life.
Ciao love ya XOXO
HAHA Thats so true... i was in and out of the last ID's looking around and dancing in the guild hall while i waited for something to get started, and also saw that luna guy recruiting for TA HAHAHA...
Personaly i feel anything making HA more like TA is a terrible thing... end of story...
SERIOUSLY VIMWAY? WTF give up already, do you really win with that crap? Like EVER???
And WTF is with 1 man hench teams, last night i fought 5 or 6 different 1 man hench teams... so rediculious... HA has gone to total crap crap crap crap crap... 5000x's worse than before
I thought the HA change to 6v6 would boost attendance for a few weeks but it looks like the novelty lasted only one weekend. Last night I only saw three ID's and 2 Home D's. Given that the last D is usually empty that is only 3 districts to group in for my American self.
I don't particularly like the map changes especially to the Broken Tower. The whole feel fo HA is that its more about randomness now and not about skill. I don't know why A.Net felt they had to make this change but if its because some PvE guys told Gaile they liked the double fame event in Shing Jea, then I am very disappointed.
Next time talk to the PvP crowd first as this game most certainly has a line drawn between those that PvP and those that PvE. Then even further down in that the PvP crowd has Gladiators, Famers, and GvGers. PvE has drunkards, explorers, protectors, treasure hunters...you get the point. This change hurt the Famers and those that wanted quick 8v8...GvG is great if you like to team split and fight a 20-40 minute battle.
Let's put it back the way it was before people make good on those threats to leave.
Quite an interesting read here. I at least skimmed through every page and read some of the arguments carefully. I'm not going to generalize people such as "all the scrubs like 6v6 because it's easier to grab 6 vimmers and go". Instead, here's my personal take on this:
Holding builds did not need to be nerfed. 3-way HA IMO was enough of a "nerf" to holding. Those who aren't noobs to HA, ask yourself: how many teams have you seen go on long holding streaks (I mean 10+ holds here) after halls was set to a 4-minute timer? How many times have you done that yourself? Not too many, I'd bet. Holding became a lot more difficult since you can't play it on politics anymore. If red and yellow aren't retarded, you're facing 3.5 minutes of 2v1 and regardless of the amount of defense in your build, 2v1 is 2v1 and it's easy to break.
The above situation led to the ridiculous popularity of interrupt teams, rather than straight defensive teams. I've had games where my team was pressured from 3:30 to 2:00, then our ghost was dead within next minute (and most/all of the team) and the two other teams happily interrupted each other for a full minute. That's more luck-based than a "lame holding build". That type of game doesn't reward for carefully planning out your skill bars and strategy and just being good at this game.
Before the halls change you could have different match-ups in halls: 5-way, 4-way, the current 3-way and occasionaly, but more often than now a free win (1v1). Many different things contributed to winning halls. You could push the right team at the right time, use "lame tricks" such as dropping fertile/symb on the 2 teams fighting off to the side, etc. You had to survive for 10 minutes, but had more options to do it. The build we (Legend of Pi) ran had good survival potential as well as a basically unstoppable spike. 1v1 we could destroy 90% of the teams (how else do you get to halls?) So we used that to our advantage. We pushed the yellow team while the other two were fighting. When it came to fighting for the altar itself, they had several people DP'ed and several res sigs down. We stalled the more dangerous team from getting to the altar and obviously, it was possible to give it up and re-cap (you had a lot more time to do this, too) because the metagame wasn't completely retarded with 50 interrupts on each side.
Now, you can call me a "spike noob" or whatever else, and say that my opinion doesn't matter because I played spike teams for my fame, but IMO that first nerf hurt halls more than the current one. It took away most of the strategy in halls and 6v6 just made the interrupt game worse. Most teams' backlines suffered more than front lines from loss of the skill slots. Which means everybody brings less skills for capping and holding an altar, but more for interrupting, because those interrupt skills are useful for things other than capping altars.
But wait, anet in all their brilliance made broken tower a 3-way map. I'm perfectly fine with courtyard, but broken tower is the second map in the ladder. Which means half the teams won't know wtf they are doing and won't be familiar with basic 3-way holding principles. Or be able to execute them for that matter. So now not only HoH is retarded, but the entire HA is, since second map is basically a /roll 1d20+X, where X is a small modifier for your skill level.
Basically, this second change was the last straw for me. When all 3 teams decide to cap the altar right away on courtyard and after 4 minutes the game ends in a draw after a 3-way interruptfest, it leaves a rather disgusting impression. I won't even bother getting the 700 fame I need for r10. 6v6 made the metagame complete garbage and I'm not even sure if Nightfall (read: Song of Concentration) will fix it entirely.
Freekey Zeekey
12-10-2006, 19:16
so in the end seeing as how this thread of disscussion is almost 13 pages of researach from pre and post tombs nerf....what should we as a gw pvp population do now?
Next is where a way for the mods of this forum to send this to Anet (along with the petition perhaps) cuz this discussion can keep going....
So basicaly what do we do now?
So basicaly what do we do now?
quit the game maybe, i quit 2 months ago and damn its so much better without gw eating up all my free time, get to spend that time with friends and studying and having fun.
Boofhead
12-10-2006, 21:25
There are more teams running, and more guild teams running because half of them are freakin' henchway. Find an alter match that doesn't have a henchway on it. I can't. And for the guilds that were built to run with groups of 8, they're now having to make multiple people sit out because there is no room. That seriously blows.
Make guilds that are built to run in groups of 6 instead.
ZiegDivine
12-10-2006, 22:43
so in the end seeing as how this thread of disscussion is almost 13 pages of researach from pre and post tombs nerf....what should we as a gw pvp population do now?
Next is where a way for the mods of this forum to send this to Anet (along with the petition perhaps) cuz this discussion can keep going....
So basicaly what do we do now?
You think Anet cares about the non-gvg pvp community? No. They listen to gvgers and pvers, and that's it. Nothing you post or send to them will matter.
Freekey Zeekey
12-10-2006, 23:00
Its cool I know anet are thick and wont change...but if you can could you provide a reason....
after all Tombs was a huge part of GW PVP also...why should people that dedicate themselves to it should suffer? I understand where GVG comes in play cuz u can accualy be a nerd and waste life on doing gvg and fighting in tournaments and as far as pvers are conserned its WOW that they listen to them over hardcore tombs people..
So anyway provide a reason im all ears :)
Oh and by the way...I know Anet reads these forums ...thats where they get these ideas from...so say they read this POST Tombs nerf forum also..if they decided to change maybe they can change again ...or Im I completely asking to much ?
p.s. this = comic relief although i am being serious :) haha
Please do make good on your threat to leave, please. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.
I'm sure there are other emote farming competetive games to play. Perhaps video basketball games, considering the amount of trash talk in alotta actual pick-up games, you should be right at home.
But seriously, chill...take a break, get some fresh air. If the game starts to collapse, maybe theyll bring back 8v8 HA. Nothing is truly writ in stone in the land of 1's and 0's.
Check back every month, see what's new.
Freekey Zeekey
13-10-2006, 00:00
Please do make good on your threat to leave, please. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.
I'm sure there are other emote farming competetive games to play. Perhaps video basketball games, considering the amount of trash talk in alotta actual pick-up games, you should be right at home.
But seriously, chill...take a break, get some fresh air. If the game starts to collapse, maybe theyll bring back 8v8 HA. Nothing is truly writ in stone in the land of 1's and 0's.
Check back every month, see what's new.
who are you? and why are you telling me to stop playing a game that I bought with my own money and Ive spent time playing on?
I wasnt making any threats. I was asking the mod to provide a reason thats all....come on child play nice :)
who are you? and why are you telling me to stop playing a game that I bought with my own money and Ive spent time playing on?
I wasnt making any threats. I was asking the mod to provide a reason thats all....come on child play nice :)
All I keep saying about this topic is essentially what I said about the big AI change that was "the end of GW".
Overexaggeration. It's because of people like you, who've vested time in the game and value their money, that I ask the quitters to quit. If only one aspect of a dynamic game entertains you, you've probably wasted your money on guild wars. I don't think you'll quit.
I think that people who feel that their game has been ruined by this change should find another game with more stable rules. Hockey anyone?...wait, bad example.
As for your explanation, how's anyone without intimate knowledge of internal discussions at anet ever gonna know? And if someone told you the answer, would you believe them?
GW is a funny game in many ways...they don't care about "punishing" the elite players in order to appeal to the clumsy fingered masses. Which means to me that if you're truly to stay an elite player in this game, your flexibility and understanding of unchangeable fundamentals are what makes you a champ.
If you want something with stable rules play hockey...shoot bad example again. Btw, thanks USA hockey (amateur), I love the new game with 10 penalties a period...
Freekey Zeekey
13-10-2006, 01:11
All I keep saying about this topic is essentially what I said about the big AI change that was "the end of GW".
Overexaggeration. It's because of people like you, who've vested time in the game and value their money, that I ask the quitters to quit. If only one aspect of a dynamic game entertains you, you've probably wasted your money on guild wars. I don't think you'll quit.
I think that people who feel that their game has been ruined by this change should find another game with more stable rules. Hockey anyone?...wait, bad example.
As for your explanation, how's anyone without intimate knowledge of internal discussions at anet ever gonna know? And if someone told you the answer, would you believe them?
GW is a funny game in many ways...they don't care about "punishing" the elite players in order to appeal to the clumsy fingered masses. Which means to me that if you're truly to stay an elite player in this game, your flexibility and understanding of unchangeable fundamentals are what makes you a champ.
If you want something with stable rules play hockey...shoot bad example again. Btw, thanks USA hockey (amateur), I love the new game with 10 penalties a period...
I was never saying I was going to quit...I have no plans on doing so neather..your jumping to conclusions w/o any research like a regular person who probly dont tomb as much as we did/do and you jumping down our necks about it..Those who did quit did for their own reasons. I dont give a flying **** about those who quit neather it was their decision they can do what they want..maybe they posted saying their gong to quit cuz they wanted to get a point across *shrugs* dont know dont care :)
And your statment about that if we only do one thing in GW we wasted money..thats wrong..youve done no research on your behalf about that...so you know many pvpers spend a good time of their gw time farming to make their pve characters pvp ready..so thats Already us doing more then 1 aspect of the game no matter how lame we are... So as for us at And Then And Then And [Then] we not quiting we simply satisfy our pvp hunger by doing GvG and belive me man. (oh your gona flame me on this one i bet) Our H screens are filled with stuff that youll probly dreaming of getting with the satisfying rewards that GVG provides a high level of Rated GVG..
Anyway man im not calling you out there is no point because there is no way you can get a point across on the internet with people being so unique..I understand your statment with punishing elite players to cater the young ones its cool no harm done...I mean after all our H screen have more #'s then them anyway (bad example LOL)
Im sure everyone that knows tombs best will agree that this change was to delicate and it was done w/o any prepeared thinking...
Like david holtzman said...he wants to be surprised about the outcome...tbh I do too. And its going to be a fun time starting Oct 27th..
Ciao
tonight... perfect example of why 6v6 is lame... 40 min match against Mo/E OF spike with 3 glyph sac res chants............................
were they just trying to bore us to death or what... when you have to DP OUT a team in HA... YOU KNOW ITS BS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nurse With Wound
13-10-2006, 13:51
Another good example of 6vs6 "meta" is this game that was fought in obs mode today. Yes, TWO full henchways on broken tower. And sadly, this is not uncommon.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7113/gw413iq1.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw413iq1.jpg)
The change is lame, but the worst thing is censorship - three threads on gwguru, opposed to the change, with many posts from people from [PUFF], [sOap], [StP], [EaT] my humble guild and many others were simply deleted by the mods there. Sadly, with more pvp population on those forums we are unnable to state our point there, they are trying to silence us. Few of the guys were even banned for nothing more than criticising anet's decision.
Gotta appreciate mods here, who allow the freedom of speech!
tonight... perfect example of why 6v6 is lame... 40 min match against Mo/E OF spike with 3 glyph sac res chants............................
were they just trying to bore us to death or what... when you have to DP OUT a team in HA... YOU KNOW ITS BS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not relevant to the 6v6 arguement. I know of the team you speak of and they were doing it in 8v8 the week before the change.
As for henchway. That could be fixed to limit teams to only 2 henchmen max. That'd make the appeal of henchway less pleasing if the leavers weren't replaced. Still it'd allow actual teams to have drops/leaver replaced.
Tristan Chapin
13-10-2006, 17:18
I went into 6v6 with an open mind, particularly since I knew groups would be easier to form. I've grown disappointed with it though. 6-man teams intrinsically allow for less variety of builds and it shows. There are about 10 elite skills that dominate the entire HA environment. It's been 2 weeks, and most builds are still either 4-man TA builds that have been frontloaded with extra warriors or 8-man HA builds that have had their flavor removed. There is no longer as much room for flavor. In all, 6v6 was a great experiment and I'm glad it was tried, but if it's permanent I'll most likely move on to GvG. It's about time I started learning how to GvG anyway.
Tristan Chapin
13-10-2006, 17:42
First you have the issue of mechanics vs skillslots. The HA as a whole has a variety of different mechanisms in play throughout the course of maps. It has altars, anihilations, relics, and every map has its twist. Unlike GvG, these different mechanics do not occur concurently, meaning a tombs build needs to be able to adapt such that it can focus on the pressing mechanism (e.g. running and mobile combat in relics, head to head bashing in broken, altar capping in courtyard, etc) when relevant. Doing this requires a number of skills that are really only useful on those maps. ...
...Assuming you need 3 elites for altar capping, that only leaves 3 for killing or staying alive. You very quickly run into the situation such that you simply cannot effectively kill, survive, and have utility for altars and relics. That sort of system is just poor. It's not fun to enter a game where you just have to give up on winning some maps in a progression. It's a poor way to design a competition because it ends up proving nothing other than who built for the right maps (this is somewhat already the case, but nowhere near as bad as it could be thanks to diminishing returns).
Yes, yes, yes! This is exactly what I was aiming at in my above post. 8-man teams can bring the tools necessary to take on the various types of maps and still be able to bring some flavor skills/classes to the battle to get an edge. But 6-man teams are pinched. They don't have as much room to build for the variety that Halls demands, so it pays more to just build towards 1 type of match. To make a 6-man HoH build, you just write an 8-man build first, strip out the flavor and keep the power elites. And people occassionally resign if they jump to a map they didn't prepare for. And it's definitely NOT the format of HA that is at fault. The strength of Halls is its variety and its demands. Having only 6 players may be hurting build gurus too much though when they try to build to take on the full variety.
Not relevant to the 6v6 arguement. I know of the team you speak of and they were doing it in 8v8 the week before the change.
As for henchway. That could be fixed to limit teams to only 2 henchmen max. That'd make the appeal of henchway less pleasing if the leavers weren't replaced. Still it'd allow actual teams to have drops/leaver replaced.
Yea it is... If i had been playing on an 8 man team we would have rolled that team in less than 8 min. 2 additional players means 2 extra utility char for us which is the difference in rolling over people running stupid cheese gimics and just batteling it out waiting for them to make strategic mistakes, like they did again and again and again...
I also appreciate them asking us to let them when @ the 30 min mark after we had DP all of them 2x's "come on, just resign so we can go hold halls" when they had only managed to kill 2 of us once each.
Mathius Clarkus
14-10-2006, 17:57
I prefer 6v6 to 8v8 - easier to get a group, easier to organise, new tactics and we all ready have 8v8 for gvg - if people miss 8v8 that much - go do gvg.
ZiegDivine
14-10-2006, 20:04
I prefer 6v6 to 8v8 - easier to get a group, easier to organise, new tactics and we all ready have 8v8 for gvg - if people miss 8v8 that much - go do gvg.
I guess you're one of the people the scribe talked to. If you really think that gvg and the old HA were both the same because they both had 8v8 you really haven't played either very much. Until you do, please don't make ignorant comments. The differences have been discussed to detail, I really don't feel like making a book about it.
Freekey Zeekey
14-10-2006, 20:06
I prefer 6v6 to 8v8 - easier to get a group, easier to organise, new tactics and we all ready have 8v8 for gvg - if people miss 8v8 that much - go do gvg.
heh...this guy right here :)
Yea it is... If i had been playing on an 8 man team we would have rolled that team in less than 8 min. 2 additional players means 2 extra utility char for us which is the difference in rolling over people running stupid cheese gimics and just batteling it out waiting for them to make strategic mistakes, like they did again and again and again...
And they would have additional skills as well to make them just as annoying.
As I said before they were doing this before in 8v8 and were holding the halls. Probably the purest form of holding that can make it through to get there.
David Holtzman
15-10-2006, 04:28
And they would have additional skills as well to make them just as annoying.
No they wouldn't. There aren't that many skills that synergize with that sort of a build and there are plenty of niche skills that don't fit in a 6v6 metagame that fit rather nicely into an 8v8 one.
Mathius Clarkus
15-10-2006, 13:46
actually i have played for a long time pvp and pve and would prefer you not to try to create a flame war (though thats obviously what you're trying to do). I think HA can be similar to pvp in many ways and i've played both for some time now. But in either case i would ask you to respect my opinion and not call me a noob.
And they would have additional skills as well to make them just as annoying.
As I said before they were doing this before in 8v8 and were holding the halls. Probably the purest form of holding that can make it through to get there.
Extremely defensive builds, for example Mo/E Obs Flame spike, are stronger in 6v6. Why? Because no matter how big the partys are, you'll almost never kill a team with that much healing power by using pressure. The only way to score kills against them is trough spikes - against a well timed spike it's doesnt matter if they have 6, 8 or 50 monks. And then it's not too hard to figure out that it's harder to spike someone down now that you've only got 6 players.
And they would have additional skills as well to make them just as annoying.
As I said before they were doing this before in 8v8 and were holding the halls. Probably the purest form of holding that can make it through to get there.
Well look @ it this way... in order to try and maximize the utility of out build with such a limited number of slots we have to sacrafice a lot...
Examply... for capping we had
15 sec ward or stability
14 sec shields up
thats it.. thats all... no SB... etc etc etc...
this gives the hero ~3 sequential attempts to cap while we either interupt other heros or their interuptors... We dont have a lot of interupts, just enough (no choking gas, no rangers at all actually).. and if one of out 4 damage dealers is concentrating on interupting their spikers so we dont die, then we are only going to have 3 damage dealers which makes it quite difficult to 'spike' out one of their 6 monks... because as was previously stated you cant out pressure that build because there is too much healing..
I have played against this build in 8v8 before and it was quite easy to beat.
Like David said... with a balanced or semi balanced build you can fit in a lot of extra stuff... where as with the of spikeing monks.. they are pretty limited in what they can bring
Freekey Zeekey
15-10-2006, 20:29
point for halls IS to hold fyi for those who didnt know....wtf is the point of winning 1 match for 4 fame
While I prefer 6v6 (I'm a moderate PvPer haveing played much more GvG in the 100-200 range, and playing alternate on sub-100 ladder teams), I think the points about altar capping and the inability to handle gimmick builds are valid points that need to be addressed.
The knee-jerk reaction of anet to go to 6v6 needs now to be followed up with reasonable changes to maps and goals to fit the loss of 16 skills. I believe the 6v6 situation we have now is only a holding pattern hastily thrown together. Once they have gathered enough data I'm betting we'll see sweeping modifications of 6v6 to fit the environment.
What I'm wondering is how many of the good Halls guilds are going to make a strong showing in GvG.
Freekey Zeekey
16-10-2006, 20:13
alrdy have...boring as hell to wait like 20+ mins to kill something...but rewards are nice :)
You mean the crappy capes or which rewards?
Freekey Zeekey
17-10-2006, 18:00
why are guilds with capes with silver/gold trims have to be crappy? those 8 players and a guild as a whole earned those fair and square didnt they? same with champ points?
But yet selber thats what i meant ( i hope your not being sarcastic cuz I already had a long dissucion about this type of thing and I d rather not have it again )
ZiegDivine
19-10-2006, 01:25
I had an interesting idea a couple days ago that I'd like to share with all of you (mostly people who gvg, and say that if you want to 8v8, go gvg). What if, instead of ANet making HA 6v6, they kept it as 8v8 and made GvG 6v6? How would the gvgers feel? Of course, you'd complain, of course you'd make petitions and discussion topics. Now, imagine that if anytime you said that you want 8v8 back, us (HA players) told you that if you want to 8v8, to go play HA, and that majority of the pvpers like this change. That just about sums up how I feel about these polls in Shing Jea about HA (next we should have polls in HA about PvE ... that'd be great) and "facts" like "majority of pvpers like this change."
P.S. It was priceless to see a fellow alliance member, Six Vs Six Sukkkkkkkkks win halls a few days ago.
It'd be an interesting idea - the game is balanced around 8v8 GvG though, but it'd still be fun. I'd play it :smiley: Again the problem is there would need to be a good 8v8 replacement (aka not HA - something like GvG, maybe a double domination or CTF style match up. Hell, UT2k4 Assault would absolutely rock in this), but it wouldn't be too damaging in terms of builds/player skill.
It would stop a few strategies though, as losing 1 player to flagging and 1/2 players to ganking would be painful at the flagstand...
Overall, it would be good. It'd help to eliminate mass ranger builds as well, which is really nice considering the OP'dness of Debilshot, but then a 1monk backline might become popular :shocked:
Oh, and any poll in PvP about PvE is always good!
can we really vote on PvE then? That would be awesome...
I think the majority of PvP players would like PvE monk bars to not accept the skills dolyak signet, healing breeze, heal area, live vicariously etc etc etc...
ZiegDivine
19-10-2006, 22:17
can we really vote on PvE then? That would be awesome...
I think the majority of PvP players would like PvE monk bars to not accept the skills dolyak signet, healing breeze, heal area, live vicariously etc etc etc...
Hahahaha, that'd be so great. Some guy tries to put in healing breeze, gets an error "Uh ... sorry. Try again."
And, Aire, see you just proved my point ... there would need to be an 8v8 replacement for gvg ... why doesn't HA get one?
Lord Pharoah
22-10-2006, 00:36
Its seems to me that the only people who care or are upset about the change to 6vs6 are the people who actually played 8vs8 lol. That shows you how much loyalty counts. All the pvers and gvgers are happy with the change and they play it more but that is because the competition has been forced out. I can go an take halls almost anytime I have friends on now its pretty sad. All the good xp players have lost interest as have I. Maybe the change did open up HA to new players but at the expense of the people who have been loyal to it for a year and a half. 6vs6 was a good idea for a new arena but why force people to play it by shutting down the 8vs8 one?
The skills are balanced with 8vs8 as a priority and now the only way to 8vs8 is to rage your ha or pve guild and join a gvg one. Funny thing is how often do you actually see 8vs8 in gvg? Not often, HA was the main place for teams to compete 8vs8. In gvg you see a lot of 1-7vs1-7 as battle lines and gank teams shift around the field.
HA was the only real place to go if you wanted to compete 8vs8 without joining and hopping through gvg guilds. HA was the ONLY place you could go and compete and be known for 8vs8 pvp where your guild didn't matter. I reached rank9 without ever having to join in with the elitist pvp guilds. You could be a top player doing r11+ groups while remaining in a pve guild an clearing FOW/UW/deep/urgoz at night. That privilege is gone now and I don't care what anyone says more classes with less people in your party is stupid. There is a demagraphic of GW players that only did HA, and I feel really sorry for them. I know many r10-r12 who have already or are in the process of quitting GW. That is the main reason it seems more accessible to people is because a lot of the good competition is playing anymore lol.
That just about sums up how I feel about these polls in Shing Jea about HA (next we should have polls in HA about PvE ... that'd be great) and "facts" like "majority of pvpers like this change."
well Gaile did make a poll on TGH
Another Fess
23-10-2006, 08:54
If anything, you'll still have your fame, and can continue to discriminate against non-ranked players.
Exactly, discriminating non-ranked players! why always "LF R4++" or "LF r6 iway"?
and 6v6 killing IWAY. I like it.
Exactly, discriminating non-ranked players! why always "LF R4++" or "LF r6 iway"?
and 6v6 killing IWAY. I like it.
are you dumb? when you are a r10 player and want to reach r12 would you rather play with someone who barely knows how to play ha or play with someone that is close to your experience level?
Ranger Nietzsche
25-10-2006, 19:46
Bottom line for me is this.
It's not as much fun anymore, for reasons that I can't seem to pin down.
Even when we get 9-10 game winning streaks. Even when we successfully go 6v12 on scarred earth ganks. Even when we cap the altar through 2 PDs, 3 savage shots and a Fear Me spam. Even when we kill the red team who is holding the altar despite the fact that blue is busy attacking the non-holding team, ie us.
Its just not as satisfying.
Its just not as much fun.
Bottom line for me is this.
It's not as much fun anymore, for reasons that I can't seem to pin down.
Even when we get 9-10 game winning streaks. Even when we successfully go 6v12 on scarred earth ganks. Even when we cap the altar through 2 PDs, 3 savage shots and a Fear Me spam. Even when we kill the red team who is holding the altar despite the fact that blue is busy attacking the non-holding team, ie us.
Its just not as satisfying.
Its just not as much fun.
Pretty much just summed up what most people think about 6v6, including me. If I had a cookie I'd give it to you.
Tristan Chapin
26-10-2006, 20:12
6v6 is overwhelmingly supported by the Alpha community. This was the source of Anet's positive feedback on the change. And unfortunately the alpha community consists of top GvGers and PvEers. The GvGers like the 6-man environment because they can run a hench group while waiting to get 8 together for GvG. The PvEers are also fond of HA's new pug-friendliness. People who do lots of HA, on a consistent daily basis, were by-and-large left out of the feedback pool on their preferred environment.
6v6 is overwhelmingly supported by the Alpha community. This was the source of Anet's positive feedback on the change. And unfortunately the alpha community consists of top GvGers and PvEers. The GvGers like the 6-man environment because they can run a hench group while waiting to get 8 together for GvG. The PvEers are also fond of HA's new pug-friendliness. People who do lots of HA, on a consistent daily basis, were by-and-large left out of the feedback pool on their preferred environment.
Well that sure is a great place to take the feedback from. GG Anet, learn common sense.
ZiegDivine
26-10-2006, 21:11
Well that sure is a great place to take the feedback from. GG Anet, learn common sense.
That's been gone for a while now. Gayle Gray bans anybody who insults her or asks questions like "GAILE GREY WILL YO U SAY SOMETHING MEANINGFUL INSTEAD OF YOUR PR BULL****." for 24 hours. Gee gee, ANet, thanks for taking criticism.
That's been gone for a while now. Gayle Gray bans anybody who insults her or asks questions like "GAILE GREY WILL YO U SAY SOMETHING MEANINGFUL INSTEAD OF YOUR PR BULL****." for 24 hours. Gee gee, ANet, thanks for taking criticism.
You are my new hero.
I gave up reading her logs a looong time ago because of what you just pointed out. I'll make sure to use my second account if I ever see her in game.
David Holtzman
26-10-2006, 21:50
6v6 is overwhelmingly supported by the Alpha community.
You obviously didn't read my posts on the subject then (assuming you have alpha). Incidentally, everything I predicted on the alpha boards has turned out to be the case. I didn't want to get into it with NF release so soon, but after that's completed I'll be writing again on the subject.
ZiegDivine
26-10-2006, 22:15
You are my new hero.
I gave up reading her logs a looong time ago because of what you just pointed out. I'll make sure to use my second account if I ever see her in game.
That wasn't me, it was I Matt B I (his name on these forums). I tried to get into ID1, but alas, too many fanboys.
You obviously didn't read my posts on the subject then (assuming you have alpha). Incidentally, everything I predicted on the alpha boards has turned out to be the case. I didn't want to get into it with NF release so soon, but after that's completed I'll be writing again on the subject.
Excuse me for not knowing, but what is "Alpha" in relation to GW? Thanks.
I'd like to read your writeup.
Excuse me for not knowing, but what is "Alpha" in relation to GW? Thanks.
I'd like to read your writeup.
Alpha testers.
And I would too.
David Holtzman
26-10-2006, 23:52
You can find a bit of my analysis here (http://forums.gwonline.net/showpost.php?p=4424898&postcount=62). There was a lot more on the alpha boards, but unfortunately I cannot repost it.
Mathius Clarkus
27-10-2006, 16:07
if u say what a staff member says is bull-**** what do you expect? You degrade players everywhere by saying things like that just because you don't agree and can't express yourself properly.
On top of that the majority of players like 6v6 which is why you had so many more people playing during the event than normally.
thedrjay
27-10-2006, 16:18
Mathius, it appears you unfortunately did not read anything that was posted by David and others who have played consistently within the HA enviroment.
On top of that the majority of players like 6v6 which is why you had so many more people playing during the event than normally.
lol, no offense, but how often do you HA?
If you HA'd often, you'd know there were 32098430298423 ID's during the event because of DOUBLE fame, not 6v6. The *majority* of players don't HA.
HA is less active NOW than when it was 8v8.
if u say what a staff member says is bull-**** what do you expect? You degrade players everywhere by saying things like that just because you don't agree and can't express yourself properly.
On top of that the majority of players like 6v6 which is why you had so many more people playing during the event than normally.
You really don't understand whats going on do you. The majority liked it because the majority was PvE'rs and GvG'ers. And of course you'd have more people on during the event. 1. It was a special event, so more will participate. 2. Double Fame.
HA is pretty much dead now, besides fame farmers.
Go back to PvE please.
Therese Fireside
27-10-2006, 17:56
lol, no offense, but how often do you HA?
If you HA'd often, you'd know there were 32098430298423 ID's during the event because of DOUBLE fame, not 6v6. The *majority* of players don't HA.
HA is less active NOW than when it was 8v8.
It only seems less active now because more teams are actually forming and playing instead of standing around shouting for someone who is rank 12 or whatever elitist crap they want you to be to get into the group. 6v6 Ha, is better gaming, imho.
6v6 Ha, is better gaming, imho.
You definitely have the right to your opinion, but unfortunately this is what 6v6 HA is going to be reduced to -
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1975/qqlu8kw4.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qqlu8kw4.jpg)
Parker Bsb
27-10-2006, 18:55
Bear in mind Henchway is rampant now too... so that means more bots and less players. Also I find I'm skipping more since the update than I did pre 6v6.
I'm still not sold that 6v6 is worse, but don't tell me the activity is there.
ZiegDivine
27-10-2006, 19:36
Parker, did you miss the above screenshot? That's ... QQ losing to a one man team. One ... guy ... just one, sitting in his basement, laughing his tits off.
Parker Bsb
27-10-2006, 21:08
Actually I was typing my reply when he posted that... guess I didn't think to scroll up.
It's funny, but it still proves my point that henchway and still getting skips leads me to belive that HoH is NOT as active as some want us to belive.
According to someone I know in QQ, he said those Heros were interupting 1/4 second casts. Who needs real players anymore?
Unless its a mesmer with fastcasting, its not actually possible to interrupt 1/4 second casts. The interrupts themselves take time to cast, so you'd need at least some fastcasting to get them. Rangers couldn't interrupt anything up to 3/4 seconds, because their interrupts have flight time
Unless its a mesmer with fastcasting, its not actually possible to interrupt 1/4 second casts. The interrupts themselves take time to cast, so you'd need at least some fastcasting to get them. Rangers couldn't interrupt anything up to 3/4 seconds, because their interrupts have flight time
Yes, it is possible to interupt 1/4 second casts. I've had RoF and Return interupted numerous times. Sure, it was extreme luck, but they have been interupted before. Distracting blow, savage, distracting, mesmer interupts, all have interupted a 1/4 sec cast one time or another. NPC's have 0 reaction time, so obviously they can interupt them.
And I've interupted 3/4 second casts as a ranger before. It's not that hard actually.
Yes, it is possible to interupt 1/4 second casts. I've had RoF and Return interupted numerous times. Sure, it was extreme luck, but they have been interupted before. Distracting blow, savage, distracting, mesmer interupts, all have interupted a 1/4 sec cast one time or another. NPC's have 0 reaction time, so obviously they can interupt them.
And I've interupted 3/4 second casts as a ranger before. It's not that hard actually.
Yeah, 3/4 are interuptable - While not all that easy, still doable especially with d-blow. Ghostly has got my 1/4 second casts before as well.
David Holtzman
29-10-2006, 10:18
Unless its a mesmer with fastcasting, its not actually possible to interrupt 1/4 second casts. The interrupts themselves take time to cast, so you'd need at least some fastcasting to get them. Rangers couldn't interrupt anything up to 3/4 seconds, because their interrupts have flight time
Actually it's more than possible to interrupt 1/4 casts, it just requires (from a player) some good predictive ability. Almost all high end rangers can dshot rofs etc. For the computer it's much easier. The computer simply activates their attack command before they let you activate your skill command. Voila, irritating interrupt.
ImSoToast
29-10-2006, 11:27
So anyone think there's any chance that 8v8 Ha might come back. I really miss it. I am very sure there are more "teams" playing now, so easy to get henchies going. Now with heroes, any veteran of Ha can simply fame farm with this. I have won several broken tower matches with heroes and henchies all bymyself. It's actually fun but gets boring fast.
So anyone think there's any chance that 8v8 Ha might come back. I really miss it. I am very sure there are more "teams" playing now, so easy to get henchies going. Now with heroes, any veteran of Ha can simply fame farm with this. I have won several broken tower matches with heroes and henchies all bymyself. It's actually fun but gets boring fast.
As retarded as Anet is...
Nope. Time to play GvG until they royally screw that up too.
HA was fun while it lasted. Lots of great times in there. gg HA, gg.
Djinn Effer
30-10-2006, 22:29
Tombs definitely needed an update, but this is like fixing a broken leg by breaking the other one.
I'm coming into this a lil late but... LOL!
--
As for interupting, I believe there was a thread in the Mesmer forum on how to interupt if you're interested in that. But, you watch for the animation to start, not the skill usage basicly - not even so much the skill animation itself but the character starting to move into the animation.
--
As for HA, yes it is bad now. No they shouldn't have changed it and yes they should change it back to 8v8. If they really want a 6v6 arena then they should've included one in Nightfall.
Nurse With Wound
31-10-2006, 04:00
As for HA, yes it is bad now. No they shouldn't have changed it and yes they should change it back to 8v8. If they really want a 6v6 arena then they should've included one in Nightfall.
QFT. But I'm almost sure that anet will ignore the voice of dedicated players, as usual. All they care about is some weekend fun for casual guy.
Basicly, Heroes Ascend was destroyed during last two months. Begining from the double fame weekend, then came the 6v6 nerf which caused massive exodus of the dedicated HA guilds, to the current "hero" problem, which basicly cleared the Halls from all good players. Rank system wasnt worth much before ( thanks to simple noob farming builds ), now its compleatly worthless - Ted the wammo and his 5 henches can farm this title just like he farmed the trolls before. Ha rank now means you can kill enemy bots with your own bots. This isnt PVP anymore, this is a joke, which does not include PLAYER VS PLAYER.
The only serious PVP now is GVG. Sadly, as those two arenas ( gvg and HA ) complimented each other nicely. Now, HA is gone, gone forever.
I'm 100% sure that the HA population now is half of what was before. Silence from anet in all the threads dedicated to those unfortunate updates is insulting to me, and lots of other PVP players. Game, that was advertised as PVP centered is quickly loosing its status as the serious Player vs Player competion, and its slowly turning into a big disaster. I know me, and others will be ignored by anet. Simply because all they care is quick profit, and they doesnt give a **** about dedicated player-base. They are loosing it, day by day, quicker and quicker. I think Nightfall is the last Guild Wars for PVP players. Not many of us will buy another. I wont. There will be better PVP games with fantasy setting, in fact they are coming soon, and from developer who is well known for his support to the dedicated player-base.
QFT. But I'm almost sure that anet will ignore the voice of dedicated players, as usual. All they care about is some weekend fun for casual guy.
Basicly, Heroes Ascend was destroyed during last two months. Begining from the double fame weekend, then came the 6v6 nerf which caused massive exodus of the dedicated HA guilds, to the current "hero" problem, which basicly cleared the Halls from all good players. Rank system wasnt worth much before ( thanks to simple noob farming builds ), now its compleatly worthless - Ted the wammo and his 5 henches can farm this title just like he farmed the trolls before. Ha rank now means you can kill enemy bots with your own bots. This isnt PVP anymore, this is a joke, which does not include PLAYER VS PLAYER.
The only serious PVP now is GVG. Sadly, as those two arenas ( gvg and HA ) complimented each other nicely. Now, HA is gone, gone forever.
I'm 100% sure that the HA population now is half of what was before. Silence from anet in all the threads dedicated to those unfortunate updates is insulting to me, and lots of other PVP players. Game, that was advertised as PVP centered is quickly loosing its status as the serious Player vs Player competion, and its slowly turning into a big disaster. I know me, and others will be ignored by anet. Simply because all they care is quick profit, and they doesnt give a **** about dedicated player-base. They are loosing it, day by day, quicker and quicker. I think Nightfall is the last Guild Wars for PVP players. Not many of us will buy another. I wont. There will be better PVP games with fantasy setting, in fact they are coming soon, and from developer who is well known for his support to the dedicated player-base.
Factions was the last for me. Playing a game ran by people who don't give a rats *** what happens to the PvP community doesn't seem like a good way to blow $50.
Some Dude
09-11-2006, 02:08
This thread seems to have lumped 2 distinct issues together. Recall that heroes were introduced AFTER 6v6. They are 2 separate things.
The reason fame gained during this period is worthless is because you probably got 90% of it from killing hero's. Agreed.
This is a different issue from the change to 6v6, which I like contrary to many posters here. I see no IWAY, I see no b-spike, games are faster, it's much much quicker to organise/find a group. If you are in a guild that has 8 guys on, why don't you just go gvg instead of logging in to whine on the forums? *gasp*
Most of the people I've talked to in game like the change. Yes, the HA participation during the double fame weekend was a skewed estimate. However, you all know that ANet keeps various statistics of various aspects of the game, and I'm sure they know right now whether the HA participation is up or down. After a suitably long measurement period, they will either change it back or decide to keep it. If they decide to keep it, you got outvoted, get over it.
lexecuteur
09-11-2006, 21:39
I like the new 6vs6 ha this is great for me winning hall every night.
But i agreed killing Zhed or dunkoro 1000 times is boring you have to kill 4 heroway for 1 real ppl way but hey fames is fames.
Was tired of all those fotm iway,vimway bspike etc....
its time for change and if ppl dont like that and cant perform like they did
with the 8vs8 well not my problem.
You need better players to perform well and never losing against heroway
cuz in fact they sux and they are realy eazy to win against even with tons of interupt.( how QQ lost to heroway omg /laugh /relaugh ).
Ton of new build will be discoverded but like everytime when a build work great everyone doing the same build like the new dual paragon and thumper
everyone doing this build so ***.Whit a warrior warder lollol zomg :grin:
Wth warrior warder doing wards on altar and those ppl think they are good
so funny omg.
Just adding vocal minority on my tainter and parangon cant do nothing
and GG get out of the hall nubs.
8vs8 with all those fotm and holding build like 2 seeking arrows and 1 mesmer pd or 7 necro/monk are gone for good this is a great thing for GW.
Those ppl cant hold the hall anymore and interupt your hero for 2 min then they quit the game well cya no one will miss you.
Now HA is open for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!
ImSoToast
10-11-2006, 12:33
I like the new 6vs6 ha this is great for me winning hall every night.
But i agreed killing Zhed or dunkoro 1000 times is boring you have to kill 4 heroway for 1 real ppl way but hey fames is fames.
Was tired of all those fotm iway,vimway bspike etc....
its time for change and if ppl dont like that and cant perform like they did
with the 8vs8 well not my problem.
You need better players to perform well and never losing against heroway
cuz in fact they sux and they are realy eazy to win against even with tons of interupt.( how QQ lost to heroway omg /laugh /relaugh ).
Ton of new build will be discoverded but like everytime when a build work great everyone doing the same build like the new dual paragon and thumper
everyone doing this build so ***.Whit a warrior warder lollol zomg :grin:
Wth warrior warder doing wards on altar and those ppl think they are good
so funny omg.
Just adding vocal minority on my tainter and parangon cant do nothing
and GG get out of the hall nubs.
8vs8 with all those fotm and holding build like 2 seeking arrows and 1 mesmer pd or 7 necro/monk are gone for good this is a great thing for GW.
Those ppl cant hold the hall anymore and interupt your hero for 2 min then they quit the game well cya no one will miss you.
Now HA is open for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh so now and especially during it just being 6v6 no heroes there were no "fotm" builds right.
Okay switched to 6v6 and look switched from vimway to yes vimway and iway to wow smiteway. Bspike was still good, just spikers had to be a little better thats all. Really how any1 could think that 2 less people on a team would mean better/ more creative builds is beyond me. But hey if 6 is greater than 8 in your book fine. You do realize that 2 less people is at least 14 less skils (not counting res sigs). Really I won't argue that it was easier to get into groups, but easier to learn? I don't agree that it was easier for newbs.
It was easier to get into groups simply because of teh influx of new people. Shoot we could've had a double fame month or week with same or better results that what these two changes have done so far to Ha. Plus the newness is starting to run out of 6v6 and quite frankly I still don't see all these new builds that every1 was foretelling to come. Well guess if you count balanced degen pressure build new than there is one.
Yay, 3 districts when there always used to be 5+ at that time of day :/
I'm also finding that there just isnt enough utility in 6v6.
I like the new 6vs6 ha this is great for me winning hall every night.
But i agreed killing Zhed or dunkoro 1000 times is boring you have to kill 4 heroway for 1 real ppl way but hey fames is fames.
Was tired of all those fotm iway,vimway bspike etc....
its time for change and if ppl dont like that and cant perform like they did
with the 8vs8 well not my problem.
You need better players to perform well and never losing against heroway
cuz in fact they sux and they are realy eazy to win against even with tons of interupt.( how QQ lost to heroway omg /laugh /relaugh ).
Ton of new build will be discoverded but like everytime when a build work great everyone doing the same build like the new dual paragon and thumper
everyone doing this build so ***.Whit a warrior warder lollol zomg :grin:
Wth warrior warder doing wards on altar and those ppl think they are good
so funny omg.
Just adding vocal minority on my tainter and parangon cant do nothing
and GG get out of the hall nubs.
8vs8 with all those fotm and holding build like 2 seeking arrows and 1 mesmer pd or 7 necro/monk are gone for good this is a great thing for GW.
Those ppl cant hold the hall anymore and interupt your hero for 2 min then they quit the game well cya no one will miss you.
Now HA is open for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!
i find it funny how everything you just said is actually proving why 6v6 ruined ha
ImSoToast
13-11-2006, 06:05
Yay, 3 districts when there always used to be 5+ at that time of day :/
I'm also finding that there just isnt enough utility in 6v6.
Boy and according to every post in support of 6v6 said you would be totally wrong and other not nice words. Really read how many people claimed with soooo much conviction that 6v6 would mean no stalement and no fots builds.
Also 6v6 was supposed to have ALL these new builds running around...ah crap forgot smite is a new build, forgot that vimway is a new build (crap its still going on today but very rarely), forgot bspike was new in 6v6, hey even balaced degen pressure is a new idea build for 6v6 only really it is.
It also really sux that people and anet said how many numbers supported the change to 6v6 when in fact two weeks after the change the int districts would , at the most have 1 full latenight when sometimes it would have 3 full and 2 others empty. Ahh I know all these groups are playing instead of waiting for teams and thats why I don't get any skips anymore. Ya people even claimed that 6v6 would put an end to skips because sooo many people were going to play.
After this they added heroes, which is fun to play but gets soo boring fast, which really helped out this 6v6 change. I mean look at all the full districts in HA really look.
ye 6vs6 ruined the game,but the biggest problem is that too many henchways and heroways now in HA,u can't see ppl anymore
On topic of hero interrupts - no, they can't interrupt 1/4s casts. I tested it with a guildy. He got a monk and spammed RoF on himself in a scrimmage. On the other side, I walked Norgu up to him with 16 fastcast and power return on his bar. Norgu never twitched to interrupt RoF.
Im Bogus
13-11-2006, 22:30
Long time since i ever posted. but this time i would really love to give my opinion. Im noobie at the HA... i never played it when it was 8v8, im a PvE expert and i already did everything there is to do in pve (xept farming cause thats boring and pointless) and now i wanted to start PvP.
My point is: i dont like HA... my guild doesnt do GvG (pure pve like i used to)... team arenas dont need much strategy or real team work... random arenas are imposible to balance a team so its even worst then team a... and zaishen, omg... i solo all teams.
i dont like HA for almost all the reasons discussed previously
- too many heros
- too many pre-build teams
- the lack of the extra 14-16 skills that were used to counter the pre-builded ones
- too many noobies (like me) but without a clue of balance or skills usefull to pvp instead of pve
- and many others... i earned 42 fame in 2 days whith a good old pals guild that invited me to join them and PWNED over and over teams in less then 5 mins (all SF, bunny thumpers, and smiting monks.... or heroways... no real original builds) wheres the challenge in that ?
HA is suposed to be the most (or second if some want) competitive arena as we fight for the favor of the god all over the WORLD
sry for caps but ---WHY DIDNT THEY CHANGE TEAM ARENA TO 6v6 AND LEFT HA AS 8v8 ???---
we need one 8v8 diferent of guild battles... NEED !
i want PvP and im thinking about going back to Counter Strike... im having more fun there.
PS: pls europe, stop being the only ones bored enogh to do HA, i want to go into fow or uw again... haha
Nurse With Wound
13-11-2006, 22:54
Good post sir. Kudos.
Even pve players want the old HA back.
So anet, what are you waiting for???
melandrus elite
14-11-2006, 00:24
builds that take skill/not common but well organized>premade builds(if not heroway)>random builds
other than that I liked your post bogus and also with all the paragons all I use is vocal minority well of silence and Ulercious lungs as a counter, If you want more fun in HA do it with guildies.
Good post sir. Kudos.
Even pve players want the old HA back.
So anet, what are you waiting for???
A single player who classifies themself as a PvE player does not speak for every PvE player.
A single player who classifies themself as a PvE player does not speak for every PvE player.
Gaile said somewhere in this forum that polls show that 80% of people are in favour and a change back will be very unlikely. Now surely a polls on forums can't possibly speak for the entire Guild Wars player base.
Gaile said somewhere in this forum that polls show that 80% of people are in favour and a change back will be very unlikely. Now surely a polls on forums can't possibly speak for the entire Guild Wars player base.
It shouldn't count for the whole player base, but to Anet, it does.
It shouldn't count for the whole player base, but to Anet, it does.
Also, there is no way to validate what type of person/player is voting in that poll. If its a Pre-searing dye farmer voting then what does that count for? (on one extreme).
I don't really care anymore. I hardly stop by HA unless its to see just how few people are LFG these days. I think I was last there on Saturday 11/12/06 late afternoon (US CT). It seemed rather dead as I saw about just as many people trying to hawk goods as form a team.
People can say what they want but HA is the place where you need to hold Halls to win favor for your nation. This was / is a big deal to the PvP and PvE player base. I find the current state of HA to be apalling and am worried that it is being neglected in favor of giving people AI bots to use. I guess they could take the game offline and we can all just play it single player.
Sorry for ranting but its late and I'm still angry with the lack of anything other than lip service about how most people like this change. I'd like to know who most people are because I don't think they are lurking in this forum or on my friends list.
Gaile said somewhere in this forum that polls show that 80% of people are in favour and a change back will be very unlikely. Now surely a polls on forums can't possibly speak for the entire Guild Wars player base.
Since we don't have the post at hand (although if you want to find it, that'd be great), I'm not sure whether Gaile was referring to polls performed by ANet or by any particular forum. Even considering the latter post though, from what you've paraphrased she didn't show a direct relationship between the poll results and their decision, she simply stated that the poll results seem in line with their decision not to change it back. Causation is a tricky thing.
Perhaps your paraphrasing wasn't quite it, and she did say that "due to these GWO poll results we will not be changing it back" - but I doubt it. It seemed a lot more like something along the lines of "We've decided to stick with it as 6v6, and the poll results so far happen to agree".
Since we don't have the post at hand (although if you want to find it, that'd be great), I'm not sure whether Gaile was referring to polls performed by ANet or by any particular forum. Even considering the latter post though, from what you've paraphrased she didn't show a direct relationship between the poll results and their decision, she simply stated that the poll results seem in line with their decision not to change it back. Causation is a tricky thing.
Perhaps your paraphrasing wasn't quite it, and she did say that "due to these GWO poll results we will not be changing it back" - but I doubt it. It seemed a lot more like something along the lines of "We've decided to stick with it as 6v6, and the poll results so far happen to agree".
Regardless of what case it is, we have many who dislike thet change, this is a fact and seems like it is being overlooked. Whatever argument they have for keeping the change, it shouldn't be result of polls in any forum no matter how many viewers it has.
Regardless of what case it is, we have many who dislike thet change, this is a fact and seems like it is being overlooked. Whatever argument they have for keeping the change, it shouldn't be result of polls in any forum no matter how many viewers it has.
Which was exactly my point - that I didn't see Gaile saying it was a result of forum polls.
I think it's possible to consider something without necessarily agreeing with it, and so far that appears to be what ANet is doing. I could be wrong, I'm not there with their CR team nor their Dev teams, and I certainly can't read the minds of their lead producers.
I certainly don't deny that there are a large number of people who dislike the change, and I never have. It's hard to deny fact.
Since we don't have the post at hand (although if you want to find it, that'd be great), I'm not sure whether Gaile was referring to polls performed by ANet or by any particular forum. Even considering the latter post though, from what you've paraphrased she didn't show a direct relationship between the poll results and their decision, she simply stated that the poll results seem in line with their decision not to change it back. Causation is a tricky thing.
Perhaps your paraphrasing wasn't quite it, and she did say that "due to these GWO poll results we will not be changing it back" - but I doubt it. It seemed a lot more like something along the lines of "We've decided to stick with it as 6v6, and the poll results so far happen to agree".
Which was exactly my point - that I didn't see Gaile saying it was a result of forum polls.
umm. I don't see how you made the same point as I did with you previous post. unless my english is sucks.
Regardless of what case it is, we have many who dislike thet change, this is a fact and seems like it is being overlooked. Whatever argument they have for keeping the change, it shouldn't be result of polls in any forum no matter how many viewers it has.
I was saying that the first post you quoted was agreeing with this:
it shouldn't be result of polls in any forum no matter how many viewers it has
Namely, I haven't seen Gaile said that it was the result of a poll, simply that the polls agreed with it. There is a very large difference between the two - in the first, the change follows from the poll result, whereas in the second, the poll result follows from the change.
MAOLeader
15-11-2006, 07:30
Sup guys. I came in to HA late. Initially 8 vs 8 was a burden for an unranked pve'er looking to get his guild in to pvp. Over time, especially since it's gone 6v6 I've come to really miss the 8v8. Sure it's tougher for the new guys to get groups started- HA's supposed to be challenging, that's the appeal. Who wants to be excited over an accomplishment that was spoon fed to them?
I'm r5 currently and got my r3 on the 8v8.... then the double fame and the 6v6 nerf. Hero's and unbalanced new professions have really limited HA strategy. While the new skills have opened room for growth in the build department, the lack of two extra players has, in my opinion, ruined HA. I still continue to do it, though. My observations have drawn conclusions for the current state of HA:
1. Two Extremes
-dominating guild groups
-inexperienced Pug/Hero teams
2. Repetition of skills and skill themes
-granted, people find one thing that works and they'll stick with it (dual smite, iway). But the ingenuity, from my perspective, is lost.
3. Exploits
-New skills are being used almost in an exploitive way. It'll be nice to see some balancing done (or nerf, depending on your view of skills like "incoming")
I'll continue to HA, but really... the 8v8 needs a comeback- even if it's harder for the new guys they'll learn and learn to either love it, or hate it. Anet can't make everyone happy but damn, if it's not broken DON'T FIX IT!!!!
and for christ's sake, get heros out of HA- henchway was better lol
ImSoToast
15-11-2006, 08:08
Sup guys. I came in to HA late. Initially 8 vs 8 was a burden for an unranked pve'er looking to get his guild in to pvp. Over time, especially since it's gone 6v6 I've come to really miss the 8v8. Sure it's tougher for the new guys to get groups started- HA's supposed to be challenging, that's the appeal. Who wants to be excited over an accomplishment that was spoon fed to them?
I'm r5 currently and got my r3 on the 8v8.... then the double fame and the 6v6 nerf. Hero's and unbalanced new professions have really limited HA strategy. While the new skills have opened room for growth in the build department, the lack of two extra players has, in my opinion, ruined HA. I still continue to do it, though. My observations have drawn conclusions for the current state of HA:
1. Two Extremes
-dominating guild groups
-inexperienced Pug/Hero teams
2. Repetition of skills and skill themes
-granted, people find one thing that works and they'll stick with it (dual smite, iway). But the ingenuity, from my perspective, is lost.
3. Exploits
-New skills are being used almost in an exploitive way. It'll be nice to see some balancing done (or nerf, depending on your view of skills like "incoming")
I'll continue to HA, but really... the 8v8 needs a comeback- even if it's harder for the new guys they'll learn and learn to either love it, or hate it. Anet can't make everyone happy but damn, if it's not broken DON'T FIX IT!!!!
and for christ's sake, get heros out of HA- henchway was better lol
I esp agree with the last part. In all the arguements I've seen for or against heroes, noones seems to remember how bad henchies were. Really how many times did you see henchies and go, maybe we will lose? I mean maybe you're a gw god but losing to heroes is 100% more possible than losing to henchies was ever, and I mean ever possible.
Really it seemed like when a guild or pug, in gvg or ha, had henchies it was a handicap for them, now with heroes the rules have changed a bit. It's not as detrimental to use heroes henchies and using henchies only was before.
Ju Smurph
15-11-2006, 08:35
the 8v8 needs a comeback- even if it's harder for the new guys they'll learn and learn to either love it, or hate it.
Same in reverse, you either learn to love 6v6 or hate it.
MAOLeader
15-11-2006, 17:14
Same in reverse, you either learn to love 6v6 or hate it.
Well considering that our complaints go ignored, you really do have to make best of the situation. I was just pointing out that playing with 6 feels like you're painting with fewer colors. Fewer colors (to me) = less interestng, less complex, less fun.
I'm sure someone's going to take this analogy and say "well learn to mix the colors"... I'm working on it... I'm trying to give it an honest go, I just miss the 8man
6v6 is great.
it puts gvg on a higher level than HA. which is how it should have been in the first place.
Well considering that our complaints go ignored,
I'm not exactly sure what you're basing this on. Do you know what the ANet developers read?
People were 100% sure they were ignoring them about heroes in HA, until one day out of the blue, guess what Gaile posts?
Lack of change is not = ignoring requests for change.
Lack of change is = not agreeing with requests for change.
MAOLeader
16-11-2006, 23:02
I'm not exactly sure what you're basing this on. Do you know what the ANet developers read?
People were 100% sure they were ignoring them about heroes in HA, until one day out of the blue, guess what Gaile posts?
Lack of change is not = ignoring requests for change.
Lack of change is = not agreeing with requests for change.
You're correct, I retract the statement. Having spent some time reading other threads I've begun to understand otherwise. One who is new to the forums could easily make the assumption.
Ate of DK
26-11-2006, 13:59
ArenaNet please change something to Heroes Ascent.
I'm writing this because I love to play the game. I also play(ed) those Builds that I mention below. And with getting closer to r11, I don't consider myself noob. As I said, I write this because I like the game and want to have fun while playing.
Lately you can't play a singe run without encountering some high defense Build that can only be defeated by rolling dice. And if worse, they don't resign after rolling dice and keep spamming nonsense about your team.
A lot of teams, which I considered to have more pride, do this and they apparently don't mind waiting 60min for someone to leave for 2/3 fame.
Okay, maybe if it are two teams full with players then I can say okay... BUT!
Don't tell me that you are not sick of 3 monk + 1 paragon Build and stuff like that. Remove henchies and heroes(!!!) from Heroes Ascent. A Hero-Arena has been made for Hero-builds... Anet? I remember back in the days that we used to play a month to get r3. Now a new player can just hench it with a build from a forum and actualy wins because the other team resigns... not becauseof his skills (Skills... which the game is about? Anet?)
Out of 8 or 9 runs today we only lost due these Builds after rolling dice. The dice weren't in our favor. Even on the Tower!!! we had to roll dice cause everyone blocked eachothers ghosts and nobody could kill someone.
I think this is still a remain of the 8vs8 HA. Defense Power is much too high.
In order to keep HA fun this should be changed quickly. Or perhaps something could be introduced from keeping the fights lasting forever (so that the power is kept for GvG). Scarred Earth with 3 Hero teams is getting very annoying. Just out of boring I decided to "lame" one run too.
Example:
Did you know you can AFK-farm fame? Yes, I tried it and made 6 fame on my second account in 1 run.
Just be a monk yourself with bonds. Then take 2 heroes, 1 healer, 1 protter. Then a Paragon hero, healer henchman and maybe fighter-henchman (which cripples and charges).
Go in and bond your monks and paragon. Then stand still, do nothing, chill, drink a coffee and chill some more. Watch the screen for teams that maybe resign, or wait a bit longer. Altar maps? Just cap and go AFK.
I'm sorry, but after trying it myself I don't think this is what we are waiting for. I feel sorry to those who fought me. But I hope I make a point here.
I'm most deffinatly not gonna play heroway again!!! It's lame! And I prefer real fights. So PLZ Anet!!! Soon!
Edit: Change spelling error's. Bad English ^^
Change back to 8vs8 plz. It was more fun and we had more choices for builds. Ppls argument that 6vs6 killed FotM builds is wrong. We have still Fotom Builds, like Seering flame Heroway and other. But 8vs8 was more fun.
Lord Natural
26-11-2006, 18:26
Example:
Did you know you can AFK-farm fame? Yes, I tried it and made 6 fame on my second account in 1 run.
Just be a monk yourself with bonds. Then take 2 heroes, 1 healer, 1 protter. Then a Paragon hero, healer henchman and maybe fighter-henchman (which cripples and charges).
Go in and bond your monks and paragon. Then stand still, do nothing, chill, drink a coffee and chill some more. Watch the screen for teams that maybe resign, or wait a bit longer. Altar maps? Just cap and go AFK.
That's called griefing. What did you hope to accomplish by this?
Your entire argument seems based on the fact that you keep playing defensive builds yourself, can't beat other defensive builds, and blame heroway for this problem. There are counters to paragon builds, yet no one wants to run them since if they run paragons themselves they might get lucky and hold halls for a little bit. If you take a team of 2 monks, 2 defensive paragons, an ele with half a bar of wards, and 1 warrior, you're not going to beat your mirror without breaking out the dice. I still don't see what heroway has to do with this.
I've yet to encounter a heroway designed purely to grief. Some people run heroways with 2 paragons, some even run them with 3 monks. But that doesn't constitute griefing, since many live teams are running even more defense than that. A healer henchie and 2 hero monks will still fold quickly to a team that's not relying on 1 warrior and a sandstorm for its damage.
The problems you've stated in your argument don't corrolate to heroway in any way. They seem to come entirely from the fact that you're playing holding builds yourself, which lack the damage to take down a random arena team, let alone a heroway or a live team. If this isn't the case, and you're not running defensive holding builds, it's not hard to come up with something to counter ward+shout builds. Something to think about anyway, instead of griefing uw with your own perception of heroway.
God Apprentice
27-11-2006, 18:46
According to someone I know in QQ, he said those Heros were interupting 1/4 second casts. Who needs real players anymore?
Unless its a mesmer with fastcasting, its not actually possible to interrupt 1/4 second casts. The interrupts themselves take time to cast, so you'd need at least some fastcasting to get them. Rangers couldn't interrupt anything up to 3/4 seconds, because their interrupts have flight time
Hero mesmer was interupting our mesmer who was using interupts. Every single one of them.
This thread seems to have lumped 2 distinct issues together. Recall that heroes were introduced AFTER 6v6. They are 2 separate things.
The reason fame gained during this period is worthless is because you probably got 90% of it from killing hero's. Agreed.
This is a different issue from the change to 6v6, which I like contrary to many posters here. I see no IWAY, I see no b-spike, games are faster, it's much much quicker to organise/find a group. If you are in a guild that has 8 guys on, why don't you just go gvg instead of logging in to whine on the forums? *gasp*
Most of the people I've talked to in game like the change. Yes, the HA participation during the double fame weekend was a skewed estimate. However, you all know that ANet keeps various statistics of various aspects of the game, and I'm sure they know right now whether the HA participation is up or down. After a suitably long measurement period, they will either change it back or decide to keep it. If they decide to keep it, you got outvoted, get over it.
Games are not faster they can last an hour. Holding versus Holding FTW!
Oh bring dice.
Meh, I farmed my last bit of fame for r10 and quit halls.
Anet ****ed up big time and I'm not coming back until it's 8v8 or they seriously rebalance 6v6 (removing heroes doesn't cut it)
1. Remove Hallskip. Use vault so that people can't cheat their way to halls by using hall skip clock. Remove the tie between FoW and UW with Hall of Heros. FoW or UW has NOTHING to do w/ PvP.
2. Make sure every team plays at least 3 different maps before going to halls; that means, for example every team must play underworld, dark chambers, courtyard or unholy temples. Or other maps with same objectives.
3. Remove Hero usage from HA. There is a hero battle arena for that.
4. Make HA 8 people mission. Yes, I have seen Bspike, ViMway and all sorts of things including old iway. Just changing it to 8 ppl doesn't yield to balanced builds as we have already seen and understood.
5. Fix all those retardedly nerfed skills. Clean the graveyard of unused skills. Either fix them or remove them. Please do so by all means as it is a pain to scroll through all those unused skills to find the one we need <lol>. And STOP changing skills reactively without analyzing the issue. in other words, fix the factor that is causing the skills being abused and don't blindly change the skills.
Also, people are leaving GW in hordes. Unless some drastic steps taken, this franchise will die. The two main flavors of GW are:
1. No grind to enjoy the game
2. Innovative PvP system detached from PvE
Please keep these flavors alive.
- Vela
lifeinthefridge
12-12-2006, 21:03
Wow, honestly, all I am hearing is ''wah wah wah, anet sucks''. Get over it, please. It was ANet's decision, and it's final. Will more ''scrubs'' or ''noobs'' join in? Yes, but then they could actually learn something about HA rather than listening to high-rank HA'ers call them noobs then excluding them for not having any rank.
Seriously, HA will involve more strategies and think-over's now than ever. A brand new metagame for HA. 6v6 will not hurt it one bit. If anything, it makes it harder than ever with less people.
However, unless the new maps are better, Dual-Smite will be heavily used by everyone, become over-used, and become the new IWAY/VIMWAY. Hex builds will take over once again. NR/Tranq will rise again.
All this means is that there is going to be a huge change in metagame in HA, since 6v6 is now the final verdict, as of now. So, you have three choices:
1) Either suck it up and make a new build designed for this change.
2) Sit here and complain about how ANet ''screws up anything''
or 3) Leave HA and do GvG.
Haahah this is funny to read now since this post was done right before 6v6 tobad its not even what the poster said heros ftl
1. Remove Hallskip. Use vault so that people can't cheat their way to halls by using hall skip clock. Remove the tie between FoW and UW with Hall of Heros. FoW or UW has NOTHING to do w/ PvP.
2. Make sure every team plays at least 3 different maps before going to halls; that means, for example every team must play underworld, dark chambers, courtyard or unholy temples. Or other maps with same objectives.
3. Remove Hero usage from HA. There is a hero battle arena for that.
4. Make HA 8 people mission. Yes, I have seen Bspike, ViMway and all sorts of things including old iway. Just changing it to 8 ppl doesn't yield to balanced builds as we have already seen and understood.
5. Fix all those retardedly nerfed skills. Clean the graveyard of unused skills. Either fix them or remove them. Please do so by all means as it is a pain to scroll through all those unused skills to find the one we need <lol>. And STOP changing skills reactively without analyzing the issue. in other words, fix the factor that is causing the skills being abused and don't blindly change the skills.
Also, people are leaving GW in hordes. Unless some drastic steps taken, this franchise will die. The two main flavors of GW are:
1. No grind to enjoy the game
2. Innovative PvP system detached from PvE
Please keep these flavors alive.
- Vela
Yeah, I agree with Vela here almost 100%. I gave up on HA because of the switch to 6v6 and then the addition of Heros just compounded the issue. Having HA still tied to Fow and UW elite areas no longer makes sense. I'd like to PvP in guild wars and have lost interest in the PvE game (stopped playing regularly and have not finished the Nightfall campaign). At least I can play my Xbox360.
Btw, good to see you Vela, give a shout out to the folks at TKCM for me.
-Edric/Dietrich
Yeah, I agree with Vela here almost 100%. I gave up on HA because of the switch to 6v6 and then the addition of Heros just compounded the issue. Having HA still tied to Fow and UW elite areas no longer makes sense. I'd like to PvP in guild wars and have lost interest in the PvE game (stopped playing regularly and have not finished the Nightfall campaign). At least I can play my Xbox360.
Btw, good to see you Vela, give a shout out to the folks at TKCM for me.
-Edric/Dietrich
lolz me too, HA is dead. and ANET DO NOT CARE. All they ever care about is GVG, TOURNAMENT? HA is not a tournament any more? Anet dropped a lvl 99 frozen soil and have countless dunkoro/talkoura using heal area on it. GG
xbox 360 time. chap 4? sure. i'll wait for it to drop to 20 bucks....
Funny things is, ArenaNet will still say that 6v6 was a huge success even when only a handful of matches a being played.
thedrjay
13-12-2006, 17:45
Well now that A-Net has stated that a LFG system will be forthcoming, maybe the need for heroes will be reduced, as it will be easier to find a party of like minded people with around the same skill level.
Mother Crone
13-12-2006, 18:18
Well now that A-Net has stated that a LFG system will be forthcoming, maybe the need for heroes will be reduced, as it will be easier to find a party of like minded people with around the same skill level.
bringing water to a dead horse. RIP HA.
Agree 110% with Velas solutions to the problem. And thank you for not bringing heroes into the equation. Hell if its 8v8 heroes can stay, just keep it limited to 2 heroes and im as happy as a pig in mud.
B Ephekt
13-12-2006, 20:07
6v6 is great.
it puts gvg on a higher level than HA. which is how it should have been in the first place.
At one point tombs was the highest level pvp in this game.
I still don't like the idea that the only 8v8 arena in the game is GvG, especially when Izzy says that pvp is balanced around 8v8. I'm in a GvG guild and I would still like to see tombs go back to 8v8, 6v6 is just garbage.
lifeinthefridge
14-12-2006, 00:06
Funny Today I tried several times for Gaile to listen to me about 6v6, she finally responses "man we we announce wintersday and somone complains about pvp Kthxbye" wow
lolz me too, HA is dead. and ANET DO NOT CARE. All they ever care about is GVG, TOURNAMENT? HA is not a tournament any more? Anet dropped a lvl 99 frozen soil and have countless dunkoro/talkoura using heal area on it. GGHeal Area doesn't heal spirits anymore. I tried it back during first factions preview and it didn't, don't know how long before then <.<
Some Dude
14-12-2006, 06:07
At one point tombs was the highest level pvp in this game.
I still don't like the idea that the only 8v8 arena in the game is GvG, especially when Izzy says that pvp is balanced around 8v8. I'm in a GvG guild and I would still like to see tombs go back to 8v8, 6v6 is just garbage.
I've only been playing for 14 months, but I don't know when HA was supposedly > gvg... gvg requires so much more skill it's not even funny.
And what's the point I ask you of having 2 8v8 arenas and zero 6v6 arenas? It suits me just fine, if you have 8 guildies on you do gvg, if you only have 6 you do HA, if you have 4 you do TA or AB, with less than 4 you spike enter through RA :p
If there were 2 8v8 arenas like it used to be, and we have 6 guys on, well then 4 get to do TA and 2 get to run around doing pve crap or something...
PS fridge, no offense buddy but maybe if you stop whining at Gaile every day she won't get snappy at you...
Edit: zomg does well of blood still give spirits regen at least? :o
B Ephekt
14-12-2006, 09:56
I've only been playing for 14 months, but I don't know when HA was supposedly > gvg... gvg requires so much more skill it's not even funny.Maybe you were still pveing at the time, but tombs was definitely considered to the the top level pvp at one point. I don't think most people moved on to GvG until they started offering cash prizes for the tournaments. In fact, a lot of top GvG players and guilds got started in tombs back in the day.
And what's the point I ask you of having 2 8v8 arenas and zero 6v6 arenas? It suits me just fine, if you have 8 guildies on you do gvg, if you only have 6 you do HA, if you have 4 you do TA or AB, with less than 4 you spike enter through RA :pTwo reasons: 1) to give people who may not like GvG a viable alternative, without it having to feel like a lesser form of pvp. 2) To give GvGers another 8v8 arena where they can test builds or just mess around in a stress free enviroment.
That's great if 6v6 "suits you" fine, but that's not the case for many others. At one point I quit GvG to join a tombs guild, and I had a lot of fun pvping without having to worry about ladder spots or people raging when we lost. Now I don't even do tombs because 6v6 feels so limiting it simply isn't fun. A lot of people feel the same way, so I'm certainly not alone.
If there were 2 8v8 arenas like it used to be, and we have 6 guys on, well then 4 get to do TA and 2 get to run around doing pve crap or something...
Tombs can be pugged without too much worry of people messing up, so it was never that hard to find a few extra people. When I was GvGing before we'd often do tombs after finishing GvG for the night - sometimes we felt we were too tired for another GvG, but didn't care if we lost in tombs so we'd find a few friends, or pugs, and go play. Tombs doesn't even seem like an option anymore, my entire guild is pretty much disgusted with the arena at this point.
ImSoToast
14-12-2006, 10:42
Yup sucks bad have to gvg or 2 people sit out, thx a lot anet.
Honestly thats why you don't see as many guilds, full human team guilds playing Ha now. Why when you have to tell 2 members to sit out?
Djinn Effer
14-12-2006, 12:15
I've only been playing for 14 months, but I don't know when HA was supposedly > gvg... gvg requires so much more skill it's not even funny.
So did HA, back when there was actually a higher skill level among the players that played it. That started going down as IWAY lasted on and on, cause instead of playing a fotm then moving on to a new fotm and gaining experience, becoming a better player... Or experimenting with your own builds which could become the next fotm, it gave players the option to never change, some may have got really good at IWAY but that was about it. I blame that.
GvG didn't used to be too hard either, nO & EP dominated ladder for ages by running spike... Nobody understood the concept of "split."
And what's the point I ask you of having 2 8v8 arenas and zero 6v6 arenas? It suits me just fine, if you have 8 guildies on you do gvg, if you only have 6 you do HA, if you have 4 you do TA or AB, with less than 4 you spike enter through RA :p
HA was originally a very high end arena, right up with and at times even regarded higher than GvG. For the most earlier times I can remember, it actually was regarded higher than GvG.
It was the ability to choose which high end arena you wanted to do. Much the difference PvE players get to choose. UW or FoW? SF or DoA? Urgoz or Deep? Yeah well, guess what... The PvP players kinda got shifted. The game started out even, we both had two high end arenas. Now PvE has, let me count this.. SIX, PvP players have...... one? ...Yeah, thats entirely fair.
If you don't have enough people on then get friends or acquire people by other means, it should be easier soon enough anyways with a LFG system coming in. I don't see any reason for HA to stay 6v6 with the implement of that.
If they really want 6v6 they can make themselves a new arena for it. How about some more high end 8v8 arenas while they're at it?... We, as PvPers don't ask for a lot from ANet, we really don't... The PvE players b&m all day and night for new content and new areas and they get it... We just want our areas left alone so we can enjoy them; it's just oh so hard to ask for, I know.
If there were 2 8v8 arenas like it used to be, and we have 6 guys on, well then 4 get to do TA and 2 get to run around doing pve crap or something...
How about this crazy notion, it may just be mind shattering... How about you get 2 guests and GvG or get 2 pugs or friends and do HA? Hard concept, I know.
PS fridge, no offense buddy but maybe if you stop whining at Gaile every day she won't get snappy at you...
Yeah, she'll ignore you completely like the rest of us.
The PvP players kinda got shifted. The game started out even, we both had two high end arenas. Now PvE has, let me count this.. SIX, PvP players have...... one? ...Yeah, thats entirely fair.Six? Seven. UW, FoW, SF, Deep, Urgoz', DoA, and Ruins of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings.
Djinn Effer
14-12-2006, 14:00
Six? Seven. UW, FoW, SF, Deep, Urgoz', DoA, and Ruins of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings.
Oh, thats right... They took our arena away and gave it to the PvErs too.
Yup sucks bad have to gvg or 2 people sit out, thx a lot anet.
Honestly thats why you don't see as many guilds, full human team guilds playing Ha now. Why when you have to tell 2 members to sit out?I don't think sitting people is the real problem.
Some smaller guilds would rather do HA then guest players for GvG. Still do see entire guilds in HA playing, I doubt they all are sitting two people.
So did HA, back when there was actually a higher skill level among the players that played it. That started going down as IWAY lasted on and on, cause instead of playing a fotm then moving on to a new fotm The slide started well before IWAY. During the time of spirit spamming and the initial dual smite the shift was already apparent.
It was the ability to choose which high end arena you wanted to do. Much the difference PvE players get to choose. UW or FoW? SF or DoA? Urgoz or Deep? Yeah well, guess what... The PvP players kinda got shifted. The game started out even, we both had two high end arenas. Now PvE has, let me count this.. SIX, PvP players have...... one? ...Yeah, thats entirely fair.Yes lets demand more would be high end PvP areas until it all looks like the Jade Quarry. :rolleyes:
If you haven't noticed the endgame PvE areas aren't as full as they used to be. No more 4-8 districts in the ToA or SF at all times. The PvE areas got diluted down. To ask for more PvP area would just do the same.
If you don't have enough people on then get friends or acquire people by other means, it should be easier soon enough anyways with a LFG system coming in. I don't see any reason for HA to stay 6v6 with the implement of that.If you still think 6v6 is about making it easier for people to get in groups you're misguided. 6v6 is more about increasing the turnover rate of fotm builds and increasing the variety of those builds you see in HA.
Oh, thats right... They took our arena away and gave it to the PvErs too.As was, the Tombs weren't going to work as GW expanded. Heroes' Ascent provided a chapter neutral grounds for players.
If you still think 6v6 is about making it easier for people to get in groups you're misguided. 6v6 is more about increasing the turnover rate of fotm builds and increasing the variety of those builds you see in HA.
I don't see the turnover rate of fotms increasing due to 6v6. We've had the para build and now we have the that terra build.
Plus where did you get this fact anyway?
The slide started well before IWAY. During the time of spirit spamming and the initial dual smite the shift was already apparent.
No, I desagree, sorry but ranger spirit spam period lasted 4-5 weeks and then was nerfed, but after that ranger spike builds start to appear with balanced builds + IWAY that started to rise little by little.
But then came the balanced build = 2 denials + warder + 3monk + W caller set up, this was the answer for IWAY in the time and oh God how much fame I made in those time killing IWAY LOL, until Anet nerved E.surges.
Anyway I could devellop this into a longer reply, but to be short in european districts balanced builds dominated. Only the newbs from english distric would play IWAY.
6v6 changed everything and specially heros, most skilled players left the game or stopped HA, the reason behind it is very simple. HA is not won by skilled players but by builds!
The build get the wins not the players, before at 8v8 the skill of players could beat some unbalanced builds, now with 6v6 you cant and also the maps in 6v6 are the most boring and annoying to play.
ANET does not care about HA anymore, since that 6v6 update and release of nightfall, after all the complaining, it has being how long now? almost couple monthes? everytime i see a game update, I'm excited and expected to see that they changed something in HA. What do I get everytime? How many updates has being implemented? big ones like pve crap DOA, always quest fix or whatever. I can't stand the fact that I EXPECT that they finally changed something in HA in every single update. I'm dissapointed every time. I don't know how many more times I have to go through it, but enough is enough ANET. I just feel like ANET do not give a CRAP about HA anymore. Arn't to excited to see a new update expecting that something was done to HA, then just realized everytime it was nothing but pve crap. Can you put up with this mess ANET created?
How long since Gaile make the thread? anything changed? Let's start pming her again. But don't hope for too much. I've lost faith in ANET and HA.
You're absolutely right? They plan to limit the number of heroes allowed in HA and to be honest, I am not at all excited to see such a change. It's not like I'll be celebrating and playing HA if they did. Like someone said before, bringing water to a dead horse.
You're absolutely right? They plan to limit the number of heroes allowed in HA and to be honest, I am not at all excited to see such a change. It's not like I'll be celebrating and playing HA if they did. Like someone said before, bringing water to a dead horse.
They won't. If they were going to, it would have been done by now. ANet's given up on HA. Think about it. The petition is what, 14 pages long at this moment? It's full of well known PvP'ers, and they don't give a rat's ***. The only PvP they're somewhat concerned with now is GvG.
People are too dependent on NPC's playing the game for them now. They take out one hero spot for teams? They'll just take another hench. Problem solved.
I've given up on Anet fixing this game (or even dealing with reports correctly. I was given a 24 hour ban for calling somebody a "noob", while people who have said much worse than that were left alone.) They'll never remove heroes from PvP, and they'll never change HA back to 8v8.
blue cheez
15-12-2006, 04:40
They won't. If they were going to, it would have been done by now. ANet's given up on HA. Think about it. The petition is what, 14 pages long at this moment? It's full of well known PvP'ers, and they don't give a rat's ***. The only PvP they're somewhat concerned with now is GvG.
People are too dependent on NPC's playing the game for them now. They take out one hero spot for teams? They'll just take another hench. Problem solved.
I've given up on Anet fixing this game (or even dealing with reports correctly. I was given a 24 hour ban for calling somebody a "noob", while people who have said much worse than that were left alone.) They'll never remove heroes from PvP, and they'll never change HA back to 8v8.
ugg im afraid its true..
They'll probally just dump the favor of the gods thing too, and it wont ever announce who wins HoH. rofl, but knowing anet- they're too lazy to even dump the idea in the recycle bin! :angry:
God Apprentice
15-12-2006, 13:47
ANET does not care about HA anymore, since that 6v6 update and release of nightfall, after all the complaining, it has being how long now? almost couple monthes? everytime i see a game update, I'm excited and expected to see that they changed something in HA. What do I get everytime? How many updates has being implemented? big ones like pve crap DOA, always quest fix or whatever. I can't stand the fact that I EXPECT that they finally changed something in HA in every single update. I'm dissapointed every time. I don't know how many more times I have to go through it, but enough is enough ANET. I just feel like ANET do not give a CRAP about HA anymore. Arn't to excited to see a new update expecting that something was done to HA, then just realized everytime it was nothing but pve crap. Can you put up with this mess ANET created?
How long since Gaile make the thread? anything changed? Let's start pming her again. But don't hope for too much. I've lost faith in ANET and HA.
How would you pm her? She sets to Do Not Disturb
Rosa Lux
15-12-2006, 14:12
I quitted playing at HA after this arrangement. 6v6 is not the only problem, 3 altar matches and heroes are bigger problems imo. Courtyard was already a pain and we have now broken tower as 2nd map just like it. It's just pain because in those altar maps if you are in a good group (like a ranked guild group) other two teams directly attack you. If you are facing two heroways in those maps with an ordinary group, they also attack you without any doubt. There is no fun in playing against two teams and losing like that. This can also happen at scarred earth, winning team comes and spoils your match. Since, in 4 of 8 maps (broken tower, scarred earth, courtyard and hoh), luck is more important than your playing style, abilities or experience, there is no point to keep playing at HA for a PvPer.
Djinn Effer
15-12-2006, 15:02
I quitted playing at HA after this arrangement. 6v6 is not the only problem, 3 altar matches and heroes are bigger problems imo. Courtyard was already a pain and we have now broken tower as 2nd map just like it. It's just pain because in those altar maps if you are in a good group (like a ranked guild group) other two teams directly attack you. If you are facing two heroways in those maps with an ordinary group, they also attack you without any doubt. There is no fun in playing against two teams and losing like that. This can also happen at scarred earth, winning team comes and spoils your match. Since, in 4 of 8 maps (broken tower, scarred earth, courtyard and hoh), luck is more important than your playing style, abilities or experience, there is no point to keep playing at HA for a PvPer.
Hate, hate to break it to you... But this has always happened to good teams. I'm sorry that you finally had to experience the harsh reality of a competitive game. Back when I played with sB, I swear to ****ing god.. Every single time we got Burial Mounds (I think that was the map...) the other teams came and directly ganked us... Like stopped what they were doing completely and came ganked.
Its always been like that, its the most strategic thing to do. If you know you cannot defeat a strong team, you band together with another weak team to take out the major threat then deal with the team you can beat. I'd do it if I was facing a good team, though dirty, it is the most logical winning solution.
Rosa Lux
15-12-2006, 17:02
Hate, hate to break it to you... But this has always happened to good teams. I'm sorry that you finally had to experience the harsh reality of a competitive game. Back when I played with sB, I swear to ****ing god.. Every single time we got Burial Mounds (I think that was the map...) the other teams came and directly ganked us... Like stopped what they were doing completely and came ganked.
Its always been like that, its the most strategic thing to do. If you know you cannot defeat a strong team, you band together with another weak team to take out the major threat then deal with the team you can beat. I'd do it if I was facing a good team, though dirty, it is the most logical winning solution.
Nah, this was not like that. The only map suitible for this was courtyard and through courtyard teams had to pass 6 maps if no skipping occurs. So, it was hard to reach courtyard for weak teams. Ganking is not common between strong teams because pushing out a strong team with the other team also causes a problem. It becomes 1v1 and it's nearly impossible to get the altar back from the first capping team at that limited time. Ganking was also happening but that was not a strategical movement, it was generally happening when some players of two teams are knowing each other and they were ganking the other team in order to guarantee the winner would be one of those buddies' team.
But now, the 2nd map is an altar map and if other teams know or feel that you are playing better than them, you have no chance there. I think, it is not a strategy, it is just an inequality, injustice for the good team. With this logic, there is no need to be good there, just grab some henchies, heroes and push out guild teams, ranked teams and think that you are playing strategically while attacking 6 players with 12 players.
I don't see the turnover rate of fotms increasing due to 6v6. We've had the para build and now we have the that terra build.
You think these are the only builds of 6v6??? :shocked:
Maybe you missed ViM (nerfed), Dual Smite (saw plenty of use early on), Searing Flames (there are occasional human groups), that weird rit holding build [SiG] has run (no one else seems to be able to run it), plus the various spike builds that are still around (Blood, Ranger, Ob Flame, etc). We also could toss in that build Forgot The Ghostlyyyy has, it'll be copied and used as well.
I've seen more diversity in the builds in less than 3 months of 6v6 then I saw in the last 6 months of 8v8.
HA is not won by skilled players but by builds!I'd argue part of skill is being able to out guess the meta-game and come in with a build ready for most of what you'll see.
Nah, this was not like that. :huh: Odd, I remember 3 to 5 teams gank another in the old Burial Mounds. Saw it all the time in the Courtyard and HoH.
I've seen more diversity in the builds in less than 3 months of 6v6 then I saw in the last 6 months of 8v8.
LOL, very funny, think about it, how many more ways can you make a balance team in 8v8 than in 6v6?
in 8v8, there are more builds within a build. How many ways can you run iway in 8v8? alot, from 8 iwayers to ooa/oop single/dual trap, even ether prot e/mo in iway builds.
how many ways can you run searing flame way in 6v6? how many ways can you run two monk/two p roll 100 way?
6v6 forces you to decide whether you want to be holding or offensive. When two holding team fight in a 1v1 death match, often need to roll 100.....I've encounter ZERO roll 100 to decide who win in 8v8. How many roll 100 have you done in 6v6?
vimway, dual smite, bloodspike, rspike, obspike. I've seen this stuff in 8v8 so they aren't really new. Also Terra build = Forgot The Ghostlyyyy.
I'd argue part of skill is being able to out guess the meta-game and come in with a build ready for most of what you'll see.
If 6v6 HA was truely as diverse as you say it is, they surely you shouldn't be able to go in and expect to run into a certain build many times. You you could make such a guess, then doesn't that contradict your claim of diversity in HA?
I was just thinking, that atleast in courtyard with the 10min timer you had time to outplay one team and get a priest gank in and take down the hero.
Many a fun game was had with all 3 teams playing agressively there, and splits going on etc.
Fun days.
Tristan Chapin
16-12-2006, 04:51
ANET does not care about HA anymore, since that 6v6 update and release of nightfall, after all the complaining, it has being how long now? almost couple monthes? everytime i see a game update, I'm excited and expected to see that they changed something in HA. What do I get everytime? How many updates has being implemented? big ones like pve crap DOA, always quest fix or whatever. I can't stand the fact that I EXPECT that they finally changed something in HA in every single update. I'm dissapointed every time. I don't know how many more times I have to go through it, but enough is enough ANET. I just feel like ANET do not give a CRAP about HA anymore. Arn't to excited to see a new update expecting that something was done to HA, then just realized everytime it was nothing but pve crap. Can you put up with this mess ANET created?
How long since Gaile make the thread? anything changed? Let's start pming her again. But don't hope for too much. I've lost faith in ANET and HA.
They won't. If they were going to, it would have been done by now. ANet's given up on HA. Think about it. The petition is what, 14 pages long at this moment? It's full of well known PvP'ers, and they don't give a rat's ***. The only PvP they're somewhat concerned with now is GvG.
People are too dependent on NPC's playing the game for them now. They take out one hero spot for teams? They'll just take another hench. Problem solved.
I've given up on Anet fixing this game (or even dealing with reports correctly. I was given a 24 hour ban for calling somebody a "noob", while people who have said much worse than that were left alone.) They'll never remove heroes from PvP, and they'll never change HA back to 8v8.
ugg im afraid its true..
They'll probally just dump the favor of the gods thing too, and it wont ever announce who wins HoH. rofl, but knowing anet- they're too lazy to even dump the idea in the recycle bin! :angry:
I feel your pain but Anet actually is working on changing HA. You have to remember that HA was not changed for over a year, starting with the earliest weeks of Prophs up to several weeks before Nightfall. The next changes they make will be coming with a lot deliberation preceding them. I'm not a spokesman for Anet, but I'm acquainted with some devs that want to see HA elevated back to the same level of competition as GvG. Guild Wars skills are balanced with 8-man teams in mind; at the core it's an 8v8 competitive game. Some other things being considered are a rotating set of objectives for the Hall of Heroes, altars that conform to the Alliance battle capping mechanic rather than Claim Resource, kill count, and more Capture the Flag, and a different script for "skipping" teams through the tournament. Note that if each match is a different strategic challenge (particularly rotating the final map) defensive "holding" builds will no longer be so essential to the arena. Particularly for CTF, skill and experience and an all-human team count for a lot more wins than build, and the devs really want to balance it towards this in the same manner as GvG is set up.
I feel your pain but Anet actually is working on changing HA. You have to remember that HA was not changed for over a year, starting with the earliest weeks of Prophs up to several weeks before Nightfall. The next changes they make will be coming with a lot deliberation preceding them. I'm not a spokesman for Anet, but I'm acquainted with some devs that want to see HA elevated back to the same level of competition as GvG. Guild Wars skills are balanced with 8-man teams in mind; at the core it's an 8v8 competitive game. Some other things being considered are a rotating set of objectives for the Hall of Heroes, altars that conform to the Alliance battle capping mechanic rather than Claim Resource, kill count, and more Capture the Flag, and a different script for "skipping" teams through the tournament. Note that if each match is a different strategic challenge (particularly rotating the final map) defensive "holding" builds will no longer be so essential to the arena. Particularly for CTF, skill and experience and an all-human team count for a lot more wins than build, and the devs really want to balance it towards this in the same manner as GvG is set up.
I heard rotating objectives a month or two ago. Obviously it never happened. Instead we get 6v6. Because of that I refuse to believe what you just said.
How come we all can understand HA was meant for 8v8, yet the creators of the game can't?
ImSoToast
16-12-2006, 10:09
You think these are the only builds of 6v6??? :shocked:
Maybe you missed ViM (nerfed), Dual Smite (saw plenty of use early on), Searing Flames (there are occasional human groups), that weird rit holding build [SiG] has run (no one else seems to be able to run it), plus the various spike builds that are still around (Blood, Ranger, Ob Flame, etc). We also could toss in that build Forgot The Ghostlyyyy has, it'll be copied and used as well.
I've seen more diversity in the builds in less than 3 months of 6v6 then I saw in the last 6 months of 8v8.
I'd argue part of skill is being able to out guess the meta-game and come in with a build ready for most of what you'll see.
:huh: Odd, I remember 3 to 5 teams gank another in the old Burial Mounds. Saw it all the time in the Courtyard and HoH.
How can you say this when everything that can be run in 6v6 can be run in 8v8 only better? Honestly you have less spikes than before so that by itself means less diversitly.
Please dont mix up new builds because of Nf with diversity.
6v6 is one of the worst things to happen to Ha, just look at the guild teams in there. Most are hero teams not guild teams, one maybe two guys from guild res heros. Honestly how creative are you going to be when u have 16 less slots and 2 less players on your team. That is contradictory no matter what.
It sucks because its really looking like anet is just leaving Ha alone.
B Ephekt
16-12-2006, 14:15
I feel your pain but Anet actually is working on changing HA. You have to remember that HA was not changed for over a year, starting with the earliest weeks of Prophs up to several weeks before Nightfall. The next changes they make will be coming with a lot deliberation preceding them. I'm not a spokesman for Anet, but I'm acquainted with some devs that want to see HA elevated back to the same level of competition as GvG. Guild Wars skills are balanced with 8-man teams in mind; at the core it's an 8v8 competitive game. Some other things being considered are a rotating set of objectives for the Hall of Heroes, altars that conform to the Alliance battle capping mechanic rather than Claim Resource, kill count, and more Capture the Flag, and a different script for "skipping" teams through the tournament. Note that if each match is a different strategic challenge (particularly rotating the final map) defensive "holding" builds will no longer be so essential to the arena. Particularly for CTF, skill and experience and an all-human team count for a lot more wins than build, and the devs really want to balance it towards this in the same manner as GvG is set up.That's all good and well but that begs the question of whether they will actually get around to doing so before it's too late. Having tombs "updated" (in a way that isn't completely horrible) won't really mean much if it happens in 6 months or so; it needs to happen now, so why not just start by undoing their mistakes? Furthermore, if the update doesn't include 8v8 and a removal of heros I feel the devs will ultimately just be wasting their time.
To be honest, after hearing Linsey say they wanted to explore other options before going back to 8v8, I really can't help but lose all hope for tombs ever being anything but a joke.
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