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View Full Version : build critique - experienced GvG'ers please help!



Monstrum
08-10-2006, 09:59
my guild is currently hovering between rank 200-300... this is the current build we are using, but i realise it has a lot of weaknesses... we seem to have a lot of problems vs wards.. please have a good look through and give your opinion on how to improve

W/E name="HAMMER" Str=9 Tac=11 Ham=16
[Devastating Hammer][Crushing Blow][Fierce Blow][Frenzy][Rush][To The Limit][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet]

W/E name="SHOCK AXE" Str=9 Axe=16 Tac=11 Air=2
[Eviscerate][Executioners Strike][Bulls Strike][Frenzy][Sprint][Shock][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet]

A/W name="MONSTRUM" Cri=15 Dag=14 Dea=4
[Siphon Speed][Flurry][Black Lotus Strike][Horns of the Ox][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Flourish][Resurrection Signet]

Me/Mo name="MESMER" Fas=9 Dom=14 Ins=11 Hea=2
[Energy Surge][Signet of Weariness][Shatter Enchantment][Cry of Frustration][Drain Enchantment][Power Drain][Draw Conditions][Resurrection Chant]

Ne/Mo name="NECRO" Sou=4 Cur=13 Blo=16
[Offering of Blood][Faintheartedness][Shadow of Fear][Reckless Haste][Parasitic Bond][Mark of Subversion][Convert Hexes][Resurrection Signet]

Mo/A name="Bl" Div=16 Hea=9 Pro=9 Sha=7
[Blessed Light][Signet of Devotion][Reversal of Fortune][Protective Spirit][Gift of Health][Dark Escape][Return][Contemplation of Purity]

Mo/Me name="Booner" Div=15 Pro=11 Ins=10
[Reversal of Fortune][Protective Spirit][Guardian][Mend Condition][Inspired Hex][Contemplation of Purity][Mantra of Recall][Divine Boon]

E/Mo name="WaterPol" Ene=10 Wat=12 Air=8 Hea=10
[Ether Prodigy][Armor of Mist][Gale][Blinding Flash][Ice Prison][Healing Breeze][Heal Party][Extinguish]

bascially, the two wars spike a single target, while the assassin is constantly spiking (mainly stays in the back and targets warriors/thumpers)
the necro spams hexes, the mesmer interrupts, removes enchants, etc
i just feel like the current build we have is too general, i would like something that works more in conjuction with each other... for example, should we switch the mesmer for an illusion mes for additional hexing? should we give the necro some additional firepower?

my ideas for modifying the hammer:

W/E name="HAMMER" Str=11 Tac=9 Ham=16
[Devastating Hammer][Crushing Blow][Heavy Blow][Frenzy][Sprint]
[Irresistable Blow][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet]
gives the hammer an additional 2 knockdowns... i dunno about irr blow after the nerf though, maybe bulls strike? but what happens when there is a lot of adrenaline denail? also, are 4 energy skills a bit much? (since i need sprint because of heavy blow)

your ideas for modifying the mes/necro are very much appreciated... the idea is an offensive pressure build, with the ability to do 2 separete mini-spikes - the two wars and the assassin, with the other characters acting as support

EDIT: didnt realise the site doesnt support the [build] tags, modified to make it more readable

nightrunner
08-10-2006, 10:13
IMO, you should either have two hexers, or none. The necro you have isn't bad, since he does have a cover hex, but it's still not optimal.

I would consider dropping the necro for a Cripshot with Debilating, so you'll have more snares for your melee, and a little extra energy denial. And I'd bring E-Burn over Signet of Weariness, too.

The rest looks pretty solid.

Monstrum
08-10-2006, 11:09
thanks for the feedback... do u have a suggestion for a 2nd hex build to replace the mesmer? i would really like to keep hexes in the build, otherwise the siphon speed of the sin gets stripped straight away, feeds the oppositions energy and renders him semi useless

David Holtzman
08-10-2006, 11:17
For the hammer, Dev->Fierce is trash. Take Earthshaker -> Mighty.

In general I think stand sins are pretty much trash. I would scrap it or turn it into a viable ganker.

For the mesmer swap Cry for Leak, PDrain for distortion, and Signet for burn. And whatever you do, get diversion on that bar. There's never a good reason to not have diversion in a build.

The necro is totally pointless. As the only hexer his stuff will never stay on. If you need defense take a stand ele or a cripshot with blackout for resetting warriors.

Why in God's name do you have cop on a blight? Take infuse or veil or mend or something useful.

Flagger needs to drop gale and prison for deepfreeze/icespikes or shardstorm. He can do away with a bit if you pick up a stand ele, but otherwise you're really gonna need area snares.

Monstrum
08-10-2006, 12:17
earthshaker and mighty over devastating and fierce??? all assassins are garbage except for base gank? ehh thanks for the feedback...

Aire
08-10-2006, 14:30
:shocked: If you're spiking, you need something other than the warriors, as that damage is easily negated on its own. Either drop the mesmer/mo for a Mes/mo Illusion hex spammer (Mantra of Persistence, Images of Remorse, Conjure etc.) with some form of spike skill (shatter Ench), or drop the Nec for a cripshot + debil shot for some degen. If you want a spike give him Marauders shot or something :shocked: I really would drop the assassin, as all they're useful for is base ganking unless you've got some strong heals on them all the time.

Monstrum
09-10-2006, 10:09
well last night we played against SAD (rank 60 or so) for one of our games, we were killing them until the 8th minute when we got an err7 on our war... they ran 3 warriors, i was playing the assassin... i killed all of their warriors atleast 3-4 times EACH...
so please leave the assassin alone, flourish is the way to go for gvg, it it some seriously insane spiking...

but aire, thanks for the mesmer suggestion, i think we might try that... i think another hexer is the way to go...

what about the necro? suggestion to change some of the hexes around?

David Holtzman
09-10-2006, 10:19
earthshaker and mighty over devastating and fierce??? all assassins are garbage except for base gank? ehh thanks for the feedback...

We don't maintain a top 20 spot in the ladder by not knowing how to GvG, and since I specialize in both sin and wars (and flaggers, but that's not relevant here) I'd recommend you take my advice. You don't have to of course, but I think you'll soon realize that I am correct.

In general I would recommend against hex builds. There are very very few good hexes and in general a hex build has a very hard time making kills (not to mention they get absolutely rocked at vod). The problem with hexes is that they end up being basically degen with warrior pressure and you can achieve far better results from simply using condition degen.

Cantos
09-10-2006, 14:25
I think hexing is a generally poor idea too. If the Siphon Speed is giving targets away, add Diversion and Shame on the Mesmer and take out the Necro for a stand ele with water hexes. It sounds like you adrenaline spike. Hexing characters contribute very little to that style of play. Domination is a great spiking attribute, and although Water isnt, an Ice Spikes will do better than a Life Siphon.

If Wards give you trouble, try a Smiter.

Hendrixbrother
09-10-2006, 16:30
We don't maintain a top 20 spot in the ladder by not knowing how to GvG, and since I specialize in both sin and wars (and flaggers, but that's not relevant here) I'd recommend you take my advice. You don't have to of course, but I think you'll soon realize that I am correct.


I've maintained a top 20 spot in the ladder far longer and far more consistently than you have, and I think you are dead wrong about the hammer build. But how can that be, if everyone maintaining a top 20 ladder position is omnipotent, as you seem to suggest? I sense a logical fallacy here.

EDIT: On topic, I agree with Aire. The character that I'd put in for the assassin would be a stand e/mo blindbot with orb assist. It's a good way to help your spike while adding defense/healing. Also, I'd put a hard res, maybe with glyph of sacrifice, on that character so that you can have a gale on the mesmer. Gale is just too good in a spike build to ignore imo.

Monstrum
09-10-2006, 18:17
well im not going to argue here, but i can count the number of times ive seen earthshaker in pvp on one hand... with most of the fingers chopped off.. can u pm me what guild ur play for, id love to watch u use earthshaker in a game

well the idea behind the hexing is that the necro and the assassin are able to handle the opponents melee by themselves, since we have very little else in the way of defence.. if i remove the necro completely, i would also have to remove the assassin... and replace them with a dom mesmer and a blindbot ele.. this kinda changes the whole build around, plus i just dont think blind is that good a defence, we used a blindbot mesmer and ele and a ward last season and got crushed defensively

so u dont think changing the mesmer to an illusion hexer is a good idea?

thanks a lot for the comments everyone

flaming caster
09-10-2006, 18:34
just the fact that when i play mesmer with draw cond, i draw the target getting spiked so fierice does way less damage

i assume alot of others do so to

Almas Darksoul
09-10-2006, 19:12
My guild finds that a combat assassin works very well. We use a coward/unsuspecting one as part of a physical pressure build, and find it works really well.

Earthshaker, though, is veeery nice. A few guilds I know of and have played against run it, and it allows for a lot of pressure. One particular nice aspect of it I have found is against Mo/A blessed light monks.

When threatened by a warrior coming to them, most Mo/As will instinctively teleport to the other monk as opposed to someone else in the team. Also, a lack of perfect timing ensures that a hit can land after they teleport.

If you hit an earthshaker just after they teleport (IE, you start the attack, they teleport, you finish the attack), you can knockdown two monks at once, potentially giving the other warriors etc. in your build a couple of seconds of free time.

I'd consider infuse on your blessed instead of CoP - there are more spikes around and although pre-prot is generally the best technique (protting 1/2 sec before the spike hits, not 10sec), infuse can help. This is especially true against builds like Bspike, where you need to survive 1-2 spikes in order to be able to apply pressure, or Rspike, where preprot is less effective usually.

The necro does seem a bit misplaced - as the only major hexes it is likely that he will not be slowing down the enemy. If you want warrior shutdown, consider a cripshot (blackout on adrenaline, cripple on spikes), or an elementalist with wards.

One thing I often see with pressure builds (and I would see 3w as a pressure build) is that the skills are set up like a spike, or the players play as if it is a spike. Try and ensure the skill focuses are on pressure, not spike. This means skills like Fierce Blow, and maybe even an axe warrior, may be misplaced in this build.
Not to imply that the build cannot spike, but sending 3 warriors (or even two) onto somebody is enough to kill someone from time, and is veeery obvious to the majority of monks.

Have fun, good luck with your build. I think I'm allowed to say this: David is from iA (Illicit Awakening), r26 at time of posting. I'm in TasH (By Balthazars Beard), r35 at time of posting. I have no idea what guild Aire is in, but they have the air of someone who knows what they're on about.

sahlakh
09-10-2006, 20:35
First of all, you should always decide what kinda of build you want, what's the strategy and what tactics you use to overcome the challenges of the metagame. After that's been decided, you think what char's and skills you want to use. Understanding the purpose of each player to the build as a whole is far more important than single skills choices.

Observer mode is full of decent builds which aim at doing different things. If you can understand how the builds work, copy and make changes. That takes less time, and this game doesn't reward for being original.

The build you pick sets the potential what you can do. The rest is up to you.

deya
10-10-2006, 00:18
A few basic things about Guild Wars GvG:

VoD @ 20 mins. When you're playing a spike, you must be playing against a team which is far behind of yours if you want to end up the game before VoD. Spike Warriors and Hexes are knowingly not very good VoD machines.

You don't want to bring a few hexes, unlike some other people mentioned, hexes are not ment mainly for there degen, more like for there shutdown effect. It's ridicously easy to take down warriors, assassins and rangers with hexes and for the current metagame I would say bringing hexes in might be a good idea.

Some very good shutdown hexes for example:
Spirit of Failure
Faintheartedness
Shadow of Fear
Spirit Shackles (Especially on Rangers)
Price of Failure
Blurred Vision

There are a few good examples, but remember that there's always some amount of hex removal in builds, so you must stack enough hexes on targets so that they remain and are not removed straight away.

-----

Second thing which pops in my mind when reading your build is the frontline assassin... For some weird reason this seems to be some cool thing to run, but tbh it's just overrated crap. You got softie hanging on frontlines which will be spiked fairly quickly down to 60dp by any guild who can play properly!

-----

You just don't have enough stuff against conditions, you would be simply overran by basic 2W 2R condition based pressure setup in matter of minutes. Live with metagame, take always some anticrap in your build (which can be useful skills anyways). Running shields up, Aegis on runner, even Martyr might be needed to survive long time enough at the moment. Also some good interrupts/blackout/diversion etc. would be very nice against those meta-obsi spikes.

------------------

When setting up a build, I would never put spike on top of it. A good build CAN spike but they necessarily don't have to.

Good ways of doing harm to enemy:
1) E-Denial, just works wonders when played correctly
2) Interrupts, Interrupts, Interrupts, Rangers got dist shot, savage shot and debi shot, should have them around a lot.. With Interrupts you should be able to deal with things which prevents you from killing stuff.
3) Pressure, don't be too defensive, make damage, keep your enemy on there toes. A lot of easier to spike down when not on 100% hp, d0h ^_^
4) Flagging, propably one of the most important things which is still forgotten by many guilds surprisingly high. Understand the flagging situation and make enemy flagrunners life as hard as possible!
5) Snares. Do I need to say more?

You should also understand your builds weaknesses and bring some counters towards them. Combined with metagame understanding, this should alone take you pretty high.

long post erm, hope this helps, atleast some :p

flyingmonkey
10-10-2006, 13:30
David gets made fun of for offering sound advice. Makes me chuckle.

Parker Bsb
10-10-2006, 15:11
Assassins are great as a gank or spike tool, as pressure a warrior beats them hands down.

I ran numbers on a sun using flurry, with Strength of Honour and Order of Pain, and the sin BARLEY outdamaged an axe warrior under frenzy. If you really want me to post the mathcraft I still have it saved somewhere...

Patccmoi
10-10-2006, 15:53
Assassins are great as a gank or spike tool, as pressure a warrior beats them hands down.

I ran numbers on a sun using flurry, with Strength of Honour and Order of Pain, and the sin BARLEY outdamaged an axe warrior under frenzy. If you really want me to post the mathcraft I still have it saved somewhere...

The Flourish Assassin isn't meant as a pressure tool, at least not in the way you see warriors as pressure tool (i.e. DPS). In GvG, he's warrior control. The difference is that instead of shutting them down, he takes them out (or, when the monks manage to save the war, force them to run the hell away from your backline, often draining quite a bit of the monk's energy in the process). It's only vulnerable if you use him like a frontline guy and go try to take out their monks with him. You CAN do that, but only when they are in a position problem. And the Flourish sin actually forces that quite often. Their wars go for your backline, you spike down the war, monk comes in front to try to save the war, your team jump on the monk, etc. I ran it in a lot of GvG, and it's imo one of the most underrated build imo, mostly because people look at the build but not at the strategy going with it. See him as your backline's bodyguard, taking out anything going too deep. But unlike a hexer with hexes dedicated to these warriors, his combo can very well be used against anyone to kill them if they're in a position where it's safe (or close enough) to do so.

If you use him to go and spike the other team's backline running there, you're just being suicidal and that's bad play, though if you sub Rez Signet for Dark Escape you can once every 30s relatively safely, without overextending ofc. My favorite sub though is Dark Prison, because if you see a midline caster alone out of a ward and not protted, you can use it on him for a shadowstep + instant hex allowing you to combo right away, and if you got any +damage buff like SoH/Brutal Weapon/OoP (that's a prerequisite for Flourish Sin imo. In this build, it's really lacking if you want to use it) it's a straight kill in around 4s. If the monks are knocked, or blackout, or being spiked too (with the recharge on Dark Prison, it's better to time it when you're pretty sure it'll work), it kills. I played against more than one top 100 guilds and could reliably kill people over and over. At the start of the season we played against Ace when they were r6 (i know they're far behind now, but they're still far from a bad guild overall, they came really close of beating Te 1-2 days ago) and i had one of their warriors DPed out at 7 min. After 10 min, one of their eles did nothing but sit on me with BFlash. When he had to do something else (like cast a ward, use a Heal Party, etc.) i could combo and take out someone straight. The instant a war has 15% DP, you can take him down in 4s flat on your own, and they're knocked during that time. If they're overextended in the least and the rest of your team is pressuring their monks, the war is gone. Otherwise it still drains a lot of monks energy, because quite often when you get someone very close to death it results in overhealing if he's saved. I know 4s isn't an instant kill and it's very possible to save, but keep in mind it's 1 guy only, and it comes back every 10-15s (with some ok dps in between with Flurry auto-attack having +damage). You still have 3-4 offense pressuring their team, draining monks of energy, etc. An additional warrior DOESN'T add the threat a Flourish Assassin does, because he can't do that straight kill combo every 10s at all, and that's a huge threat in the end.

And its utility isn't too bad with a spammable snare and a kd. You don't really need a Crip Shot when you have a Flourish sin (at least not in the main group, if you want one from running/ganking that's different).

For your build, if you want to keep the Flourish Sin in there (and if you played with it, i'm sure you do, it's addictive =p) i'd drop the Necro for either a Smite monk with Str of Honor (he can do Zealot's-Balth's Aura smite too, but he should do that on the warriors, not the sin, though replace something like JI on the 'regular' build by SoH which he maintains on the sin), an E/Mo with wards/bflash, SoH and EProd, or a Rt/R with Attuned, Serpent's Quickness, some spirits (Shadowsong, Bloodsong, Shelter, Union, Pain, Soothing... w/e you want, just pick 4-5) and Brutal Weapon (that +16 Brutal means you can take out a warrior straight even if he's not DPed. It's INCREDIBLE on a Flourish sin, and your auto-attack in Flurry does possibly more DPS than an axe war in Frenzy. But it won't work when you're enchanted, which is usually fine unless your team is running Aegis or the like). I think you'd have a pretty solid setup by replacing the Necro with one of these, i'd personally pick the E/Mo or Rt/R.

***************

David, can you post what build you use for Earthshaker-Mighty? I saw a few Earthshaker wars lately (haven't in a long long time before) and they seemed ok overall (pretty similar to Devastating-Fierce really, but when Earthshaker gets more than one guy it's really nice). I always went for Devastating, but i didn't really try Earthshaker much at all so i can hardly compare.

Also just an extra question about Earthshaker, is it adjacent foes to you or to your target? Like can you knock people in your back, or behind your target instead?

Parker Bsb
10-10-2006, 16:18
Adjcent to target, I personally am still up in the air with earthshaker as when I was playing it the other team noticed pretty fast and stood further apart.

As for the rest I'll be replying in a seperate thread as I think it's interesting to discuss by it's self.

David Holtzman
10-10-2006, 21:39
David, can you post what build you use for Earthshaker-Mighty?

I run Earthshaker, Crushing, Mighty, Bulls, Frenzy, Rush, Healsig, Rez.


I saw a few Earthshaker wars lately (haven't in a long long time before) and they seemed ok overall (pretty similar to Devastating-Fierce really, but when Earthshaker gets more than one guy it's really nice).

Custodian from QQ runs (I think) Earth, Crushing, Mighty, Bulls, Protector's Strike, Rush, Healsig, Rez. He also sometimes subs in Hammer Bash for Mighty.


I always went for Devastating, but i didn't really try Earthshaker much at all so i can hardly compare.

For only 1 more adrenaline, I think running Dev is just silly. The weakness thing is cute, but it's not very useful. You hit almost as hard with mighty as you do with fierce (assuming weakness), and you don't need to worry about a condition being on your target. That makes mighty a better overall skill and matches up nicely with the general usefuleness of Earthshaker.


Also just an extra question about Earthshaker, is it adjacent foes to you or to your target? Like can you knock people in your back, or behind your target instead?

To your target. However, Adjacent range from melee is such that you'll often KD people who are attacking you (makes for LOADS of fun against IWAY. Or at least it did...).

Patccmoi
10-10-2006, 21:54
For only 1 more adrenaline, I think running Dev is just silly. The weakness thing is cute, but it's not very useful. You hit almost as hard with mighty as you do with fierce (assuming weakness), and you don't need to worry about a condition being on your target. That makes mighty a better overall skill and matches up nicely with the general usefuleness of Earthshaker.

Guess that's true. I used to run the Devastating-Crushing-Fierce-Heavy sequence, but it's not worth it in GvG usually (weakness is just removed too often) and so i just stuck with Devastating-Fierce-Crushing when i stopped using Heavy. But i guess that without the weakness helping on Heavy, it's truly not worth much.

Monstrum
10-10-2006, 23:22
ok david, u do have a point... but the difference between devastating-fierce and earthshaker-mighty is around 16 or so damage, and 1 adrenaline less, in the favor of the first... the second having the benefit of an "area" kd, but how often do u beat on clumped up bunches of casters

pat, if we remove the necro completely, wouldnt it render the assassin kinda useless seeing how siphon speed is now the only hex in the build?

vorpalbunny
11-10-2006, 01:22
try putting mindwrack on the e-surge if you're not gonna put in a degen mesmer. Its relatively spammable, and most people won't remove it unless they need the energy. Have the assasin call for it, or have the mesmer pass it around on some casters, it should work ok.

Patccmoi
11-10-2006, 02:00
ok david, u do have a point... but the difference between devastating-fierce and earthshaker-mighty is around 16 or so damage, and 1 adrenaline less, in the favor of the first... the second having the benefit of an "area" kd, but how often do u beat on clumped up bunches of casters

pat, if we remove the necro completely, wouldnt it render the assassin kinda useless seeing how siphon speed is now the only hex in the build?

I nearly always play with my Flourish Assassin with Siphon Speed being the only hex in the build out of maybe Diversion/Shame and some Hydro hexes on the runner.

It doesn't matter at all. The thing you gotta realize is that you need the hex for 1 second, no more. One of the worse reflexes monks have is actually to try to remove the hex instead of protting the target (then again, if i notice they are protting people just cause i hex them, i just hex people at random to make them waste energy while my flourish/energy is recharging). But either way, if they can remove the hex, usually they can save the guy too (i mean they can take the time/energy to remove the hex, it means they can throw some healing too). What you want is that they CAN'T save the guy, so you pick your target or time your combo accordingly. The part where they make the mistake of removing the hex is mostly on themselves. I saw tons of monks that i use Siphon Speed on use iHex on it right away instead of protting themselves. Sure, they remove it, but my BLS is already thrown and i don't care about the hex at all after this. The hex only needs to stay in place 1s while you BLS, after that it's not required. Your target will be dead before they can try to run. So monks that could throw a RoF on themselves, or a Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond (though honestly these 2 hardly do anything at all, which is one of the main strength of the combo. Nearly all your hits are around 50-55 damage, so Prot Spirit only saves a minimal amount and Spirit Bond does nothing. Against casters you might crit up to 68 though) will instead use that time to iHex Siphon Speed and by the time that's done they're knocked by Horns. And they'll be dead before they get up.

If you see they're fast on hex removal, the best thing is to get in melee range of your target before using Siphon Speed. Then with their reaction time + cast time of hex removal it's really easy to land your BLS. After that, if Siphon Speed is removed, nobody cares.

David Holtzman
11-10-2006, 03:57
ok david, u do have a point... but the difference between devastating-fierce and earthshaker-mighty is around 16 or so damage, and 1 adrenaline less, in the favor of the first...

But only if they're weakened which, as Pat mentioned, often is not the case. Mighty hits for 37, Fierce hits for only 5 more damage if they're weakened but hits for 16 less if they aren't. I think it's silly to run dev/fierce really.


the second having the benefit of an "area" kd, but how often do u beat on clumped up bunches of casters

Fairly often actually, especially in cramped areas like around most flagstands or in lordrooms or a variety of other locations. I've gotten solo teamwipes where I kd both monks, kill one of them, and then push the other just when he stands up. It's a great feeling.


pat, if we remove the necro completely, wouldnt it render the assassin kinda useless seeing how siphon speed is now the only hex in the build?

No for 2 reasons. First, it's on a character that's usually too far for quick hex removal. Second, you only need the hex to be on for the inital attack. After that, who cares? It's got a nice recharge on it anyways.

Savsuds
11-10-2006, 04:07
I like playing with a flourish assasin, but one diversion and the whole attack chain can be hampered or shutdown easily for close to a minute. I know I am not the best player in the world, but I highly doubt any of them can consistently stop an attack combo under frenzy or flurry to prevent diversion from disabling an attack skill.

Having a build shutdown because of a commonly used mesmer skill seems like a gamble you will not win often enough.

I am in total agreement with most people here concerning the use of the necro. Hex spam is not effective pressure unless you have 2 or more devoted players spreading the hexes around AND eliminate/neutralize the team's heal party spammer.

I love the earthshaker build. Makes me all giddy like a school girl when I saw the warrior (which someone *David* called a linebacker) fall down next to our warrior.

And I love a surge, burn, diversion, shatter e, drain e mesmer in every build I normally run in.

As an added note, when I have draw on my bar, I draw monks getting spiked or pressured, warriors, everybody within reach or need. If it saves you monk that extra damage, why not draw them also?

David Holtzman
11-10-2006, 04:36
I love the earthshaker build. Makes me all giddy like a school girl when I saw the warrior (which someone *David* called a linebacker) fall down next to our warrior.

I still seriously consider murdering Augie for making that build.

vorpalbunny
11-10-2006, 04:48
I like playing with a flourish assasin, but one diversion and the whole attack chain can be hampered or shutdown easily for close to a minute. I know I am not the best player in the world, but I highly doubt any of them can consistently stop an attack combo under frenzy or flurry to prevent diversion from disabling an attack skill.

Having a build shutdown because of a commonly used mesmer skill seems like a gamble you will not win often enough.



Do you know what flourish does??

Savsuds
11-10-2006, 05:04
Do you know what flourish does??
Yes, I do. You get the diversion down early, your hex siphon speed is gone. No hex, no BLS, no Horns, etc. Generally right after the combo is completed you have a couple seconds before the assasin can use flourish, even more time if you do not get to him until his second use of it, since Flourish has that 10 second recharge. Time that diversion to fall after the combo and before Flourish's use and gg.

vorpalbunny
11-10-2006, 07:29
Yes, I do. You get the diversion down early, your hex siphon speed is gone. No hex, no BLS, no Horns, etc. Generally right after the combo is completed you have a couple seconds before the assasin can use flourish, even more time if you do not get to him until his second use of it, since Flourish has that 10 second recharge. Time that diversion to fall after the combo and before Flourish's use and gg.
Thats some leet diversion timing. And, before you were talking about attack skills, now you're talking about 1 second cast time skills, which can be canceled. Also, siphon speed doesn't have to be the only hex skill in the build, so it doesn't mean he is shutdown by anymeans.

Monstrum
11-10-2006, 08:31
^
savsuds has a point, ive had siphon speed diversioned a lot more than all of my other skills put together.. im often spamming it as much as possible, due to the fact thats it almost cripple on anyone i cast it on, and most importantly for the 33% speed boost, which lets me push forward a little once the opposition warriors catch on its not a good idea to overextend

Patccmoi
11-10-2006, 16:47
Siphon Speed getting Diversioned is the only thing truly hurting the build. Flourish diverted is bad, but you can still combo every 20s (BLS recharge) instead of every 12-15s, and you lose the ability to do 2 combos back to back. If any attack skill is diverted, you Flourish it.

If i see Diversion dropped on me once, usually i'm very careful about it. And I'm also pretty used to rid myself of Diversion instantly by throwing an attack skill that isn't ready (for example i'll throw a Horns out of nowhere. It will do miss-miss, get rid of Diversion, and recharge instantly. The funny part about it too is that most Mesmers think they actually Diversioned your Horn).

To Diversion an attack skill, you need to get both Flourish and the attack skill, which isn't all that easy if the Assassin pays attention at all. Keep in mind that if you Diversion an attack skill like you said, THEN Diversion Flourish... that attack skill is recharged by Flourish already and you need to Diversion it AGAIN. So really you have to Diversion Flourish before you have a chance to Diversion anything else. And it's still better to have that Mesmer throwing 4-5 Diversions on the Assassin and -maybe- shutting him down for around 1 min than catching RoF and Gift on a monk. Diversion is extremely nice, but it's faaar from a sure thing on someone paying attention to you (if i get Diversioned thrown on me once, i'll definitely keep an eye on that Mesmer, especially since i'm often in MY backline, so that Mesmer has to come out in the open to Diversion me)

And if for example i lose my siphon speed with nobody else hexing, i'll just go and help warriors on spikes. Usually they KD target and i can just come in with them and do Falling Spider + Horns/Twisting for an extra 150+ damage and poison on spike. It happens once in a while (happened to me once yesterday to get Siphon Speed diversioned. I didn't even see diversion, must've been a damn lucky timing), but then you just DPS with your auto-attack and spike assist. Yes, you're limited a lot, but hell that's what Diversion do. Diversion a ranger's dshot and savage shot, and they're a significantly lower threat too. I know that Diversion is harsher on sins, but if any build is Diversion-resilient, it's this one because there's only 1 skill that truly hurts the build if it's diversioned. And Morale Boosts when you're holding flag can take care of it too.

vorpalbunny
12-10-2006, 04:29
^ what he said.

Also, if there is only one mesmer with diversion, you could also try pressureing him for a little bit. If you don't kill him, thats fine, its a few seconds where he isn't diversioning you, or at least you can see it coming. If he throws up distortion, just push flurry. If he runs to the back line, throw siphon on a midline caster or some warrior in their front and go spike him, either way the diversion can be avoided. Additionaly, you can put some semi-innocuous hex (i know i've said it before but i'll say it again) like mind wrack on the dom mesmer, even siphon speed being diversioned is not that big of a problem.

Jacobbs
12-10-2006, 17:57
I would perosnally make it two mesmers or possibly a ranger and mesmer. Basically, if you're having trouble with wards, take some sort of AoE thing, Traps, Metor Shower, etc. I think a ranger would be nice too,

[Crippling shot][Apply Poison][Debilitating Shot][Distortion][Distracting Shot][Storm Chaser][Troll Unguen][Barbed Trap]

Or something to that effect, no idea how it would work, but I'd say give it a go, it might work out well, or horribly. The season is almost to a conclusion, so I'd try things now, as opposed to ladder lock.


[edit]

Your assassin, I assume his role is to gank? I would opt for something that can put out more KD's and interrupts if he's going to gank.

[edit2]
This is off anther build posted here, but it might be worth checking out.

[Unsuspecting Strike][Wild Strike][Critical Strike][Twisting Fangs][Coward!][Watch Yourself!][Siphon Speed][Resurrection Signet]

vorpalbunny
12-10-2006, 21:47
Flourish assassins are generally not used to gank.

If wards are the problem, you can use smite, like someone said before, and diverion on the mesmer will also help.

mrankh
16-10-2006, 06:38
you have a lone mesmer without distortion, I would drop sig of weariness and add it in, it really helps. Also, your blind and snares are on your flag runner. This tends to pose a problem now a days thus the invention of the Me/A flag runner, but we wont need to get into that. Your build is intensely melee heavy. I know from expirience that the Flourish sin has constant spike abilties, but I can see a team being able to handle your build. Good balance of hex removal though, you have just the right amount

Awakened Burden
28-10-2006, 15:36
Like im sure many people said. You have to get diversion on your monks skillbar.

- pally

mender of bad soles
28-10-2006, 22:16
Sorry if som1 has already said this, but Edrain is better for your BP in this(and most) builds. This would add more presure in terms of energy to the team overall.

if you do this you would relocate points to 14/16 divine depending on sup or no sup, 10 prot, and 9 insperation(-8 break on drain). also, you would use a wayward wand and straw effigy for chance of better recharge.

Monstrum
31-10-2006, 09:56
i just wanna apologize to david...

after running a earthshaker-crushing-mighty build (sometimes with bulls strike, other times with to the limit) i have to say i prefer it much more to the devastating build... really the damage difference is negligeble, and 1 extra adrenaline for a chance to knock down several foes is definately worth it... in vod vs archers, against a pressure war build in defence, chasing down monks (who run towards allies) and hitting them at the right moment... priceless

Jacobbs
07-11-2006, 18:32
you have a lone mesmer without distortion, I would drop sig of weariness and add it in, it really helps. Also, your blind and snares are on your flag runner. This tends to pose a problem now a days thus the invention of the Me/A flag runner, but we wont need to get into that. Your build is intensely melee heavy. I know from expirience that the Flourish sin has constant spike abilties, but I can see a team being able to handle your build. Good balance of hex removal though, you have just the right amount

Distortion is an emergency button for mesmers that are not positionally aware, imo. A good monk and a mesmer aware of their field position and adept in the art of (pre)kiting shouldn't really need Distortion all that much.

As a monk, I think the only time distortion will save your life is vs a ranger spike or a W/A Telespike.