View Full Version : "Pulling" henchies at VoD

Almas Darksoul
15-10-2006, 01:38
An instance that we've ran into a couple of times now is with spike teams managing to pull henchies one by one at VoD. Through using a hall that makes split hard to pull off (notably Jade), or by pushing us out of a base using the advantage that VoD gives spikes, we have been forced to the flagstand, where we have a considerably henchie advantage (IE everything except a footman).

However, the enemy are able to attack and spike down one henchie at a time, while the others wait patiently in line. Fast spikes, bloodspikes or afterspikes mean that we cannot save them effectively. Even more annoyingly, on most maps the bodyguard will stand in front of the archers, making him die easily. This process means that by the time the lords leave the base, we have lost our henchie advantage.

It seems a tad unfair to me that a team we have tactically outmaneuvered and thus (in my eyes) outplayed through splitting (knowing that we cannot win in a straight fight) can win by NPC stupidity. Although on occaision we can still win these games by applying pressure while they are distracted, we have lost some rating by this strategy.

This problem could be solved by changing the way the henchmen work as soon as VoD starts - putting them into a "group" for the purposes of aggro code so that attacking one will cause the rest of them to move to attack the enemy (for a few steps).

Do you think this is a wise idea? Have you ever experienced a similar issue or do you think that we have made a significant tactical error?

16-10-2006, 05:40
split your team at the henchies, pretend your spliting to get there Lord, If they are a good spike, they will send back there ele and a monk, go in with your offesnive balance and do your worst. You gota strike when u still have the henchie advantage, you can always kite back into them

Xunlai Agent
22-10-2006, 18:22
They need to change the code because it is extremely flawed. I can't understand how a group can pick of each archer one by one while the other NPCs just stand around and watch.

23-10-2006, 05:17
if the npcs start balling up, every team will just end up running a fire ele, you know how much those own at vod :P

Almas Darksoul
23-10-2006, 05:46
if the npcs start balling up, every team will just end up running a fire ele, you know how much those own at vod :P

They already do. In the common condition build, the utility is often taken up by a fire ele: glyph of sac meteor shower. Henchies can be easily balled before they reach the flagstand, only spreading out when they arrive. At VoD, it is hard to save more than 1-2 henchies if this combo is used, and it is rather hard to prevent (interrupting GoS is the main method, or ensuring they get nowhere near your hench).

However, not what I am talking about. If it would be possible to make a linked aggro code (Similar to dredge groups or whatever, where pulling one makes them all come) this problem would be easily solved, although I don't know if this is feasible or wise.

06-11-2006, 20:33
yeh the Gos + MS build is deadly anyway, iQ used it in the finals of autumn season and owned QQ with it

Parker Bsb
06-11-2006, 21:36
On the NPC topic - at VoD last night I watched SoW vs QQ. At VoD QQ's Knights were pulled into SoW's base and next thing you know their knights are wailing away on SoW's GL.

I know the AI was "tweaked" recently for PvE but I think that's a bit too far to chase someone in GvG.

06-11-2006, 23:27
^ Wow. What map was that?

Parker Bsb
07-11-2006, 12:49
Flodded (or forgotten) I forget the correct name for it. If you arent sure - it's the new one that the center area is waist deep water.

07-11-2006, 16:46
I agree that VoD is a bit of an issue. GvG should be about beating the other team into the ground, not managing NPC's for VoD. Some things I have noticed:

Once the NPC's start moving, it often becomes a matter of which team can run into the other's base and kill the Guild Lord the fastest. I just don't see how this determines the best team. In matches like this it's often two very defensively minded teams, few to no deaths until VoD hits. Neither team seems to be very interested in making kills. Very boring match IMHO. To solve this, the Guild Lord should leave his station along with the rest of the NPC's. He should never, ever be standing all alone waiting for a gank unprotected.

In VoD, the archers can basically win or lose a match for a team. Again, should the fate of a GvG match rest on the laurels of NPC's? Somehow I think not. I understand why this mechanic is in place...to avoid 2 hour slug fests between two teams who are set on defense, defense and more defense.

There has got to be a better way to force these teams to play offensively. Maybe a system that incorporates death count at VoD. Something that gives some kind of boost for each kill made. For example, when VoD hits, all players get smacked with an instant -50% to their morale. Now, for each kill made, each player on that team gets 5% of that DP removed (maybe 1% for each NPC kill). So what we have is team A - Defensive build makes 1 kill, and 0 npc kills. Team B runs very well played pressure\split build and kills 6 players and 5 npcs. Neither has recieved a morale boost at the flag stand. Upon VoD, the defensive team A has a minimum of a -45% DP, team B has a massive advantage with only -15% DP. Team A is now doomed because they couldn't make kills before, and now have a massive handicap. In a senario like this all NPCs and the Guild lord remain in their guild halls, gate unlocked.

07-11-2006, 17:28
Putting the NPCs into a "group" may be a solution, but I think they should just rework the NPC AI in GvG all together, maybe working in what you suggested. I think in addition to adding "aggro" code, NPC pathing and AoE AI needs to be reworked. When an archer is hit with MS, they get up and immediately try to troll, instead of running out of MS first, and it gets them killed. That said, pulling NPCs is a very good tactic though. Why would you consider the aggro code "not wise"? One thing I can see is that NPCs might end up chasing people all over the map (as mentioned before hand).

@ GoS/MS person, Have you ever considered "tanking" their NPCs for 5 seconds so yours can get in position? I've successfully done this in a few GvG matches with great results, as your NPCs get in position spread out, so they're less susceptible to GoS/MS.

Almas Darksoul
16-11-2006, 04:16
@Innocent (oo, fancy @ work)

Balanced teams sometimes use the spread of Henchmen to restore the balance of a game, which I think is fair - they are pulling 3-4 at a time while also fighting the group off. It gives non-VoD builds potential if their hench army is royally owned in the first 30sec of VoD. However, the ganking of individual hench is rather frustrating - a non-perfected change could end up making life harder for balanced builds with a hench disadvantage.

I agree that hench should, by default, react differently to AoEs. However, I think that would require a rework of AI code, which would be even more tricky than my suggestion. Increasing the Archers' fire resistance could also help, but could cause imbalances.