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Edric
17-10-2006, 08:18
I think the 6v6 format has made henchway too viable as a build. I have seen henchway teams win on altar maps with their oh so AI coordinated spike. Also anyone notice how the Zaishen Healer uses WoH like an infuse? Puh-leaze! Henchway should not be even making it to the Halls. This really needs to be fixed?

edit: typo fix

NecroAngel
17-10-2006, 08:22
Absolutely... I don't even understand why ANet would allow the use of Henchmen for such important aspects of the game like HoH. Not to sound too much like a ranter; however, I do feel HoH and GvG should be purely real-life players (or however much a life one can have playing GW).

In conclusion, that aspect of the game is PvP (Player vs. Player); not PvNPC!!!

Aire
17-10-2006, 10:29
Yes, because henchmen kite, henchmen weapon swap, henchmen spike...

Its just the poor quality of most HA players catching up with themselves. I mean, come on - they're so fragile and vulnerable, they have 0 advantages over normal players EXCEPT THAT THEY FOLLOW THE TARGET (and the healer henchy has leet WoH infusing skills)

Malibu Illusion
17-10-2006, 10:32
Okay first thing is first, I think even if you have a moderately organised group, they shouldn't be losing to henchway. I have never lost to henchway, even in completely random PuGs, when playing as a monk (which I normally do).

That said, I kinda agree and have thought forever that henchmen shouldn't even be in attendance in HA, or any primarily PvP area for that matter. We go to HA for PvP, not PvPvE. That said, I still think henchmen should be added to parties if someone drops out for whatever reason before the next map to give the team at least a sporting chance. This is the only time I'd condone henchies being involved here.

selber
17-10-2006, 11:49
You mean

Alesia, Stefan and Orion > average Tombsplayer?


Hm... yes nerf the Henchies!

Zui
17-10-2006, 13:12
Alesia, Stefan and Orion > average Tombsplayer?

Kinda sad isn't it?

Domina Spellbinder
17-10-2006, 13:34
Free fame never hurt anyone.

Nurse With Wound
17-10-2006, 14:32
Henchway = Free Fame all the time. But thats not the point of pvp arenas. It should be player vs player not playwer vs hench. 6vs6 screwed HA bigtime, by allowing henchway in purest form.... IT is running rampart atm, and ruining fun for everyone, it will be even worse with 'heroes'. We play PVP for player vs player competition, not pve-like hench fame farm!!! The only viable solution is to return HA to its old format, or forbid AI controlled characters entering PVP arenas. Guild Wars pvp is turning into a big joke.

Laura Fantus
17-10-2006, 14:50
If you can't beat henchway, you deserve no fame. Yes, henchies do some things nicely as they have nice reaction times. But they obviously don't know much about strategy and tactics, now do they? Also try yelling commands into TS and see whether they follow! :wink:

Yes, henchway got better with 6x6 - but as others have pointed out, 6x6 is what the majority wanted. So I guess the majority now has to deal with henchway too... :tongue:

ZiegDivine
17-10-2006, 15:30
Yes, henchway got better with 6x6 - but as others have pointed out, 6x6 is what the majority wanted. So I guess the majority now has to deal with henchway too...

Majority of who? I've never seen Gaile Gray talking in HA ID1, asking whether the change is a good idea. Have you? Doubt it.

Henchway is just annoying ... it's not about the free fame, it's about the fact that I go into HA to play against REAL PLAYERS, not AI controlled characters. If I wanted the latter, I'd go pve.

Lykan
17-10-2006, 16:17
The thing is on alter maps, especially broken tower Henchway has as much chance of winning as the other two teams, no matter how good they are.
Added pressure from ganking and having only 2 monks means more chances for henchway to win. Especially if one team attacks the team which isnt holding :/

Domina Spellbinder
17-10-2006, 16:18
Henchway is just annoying ... it's not about the free fame, it's about the fact that I go into HA to play against REAL PLAYERS, not AI controlled characters. If I wanted the latter, I'd go pve.

So half your first matches will be vs henchway, after this you shouldn't meet them....

unless you consistently lose on the broken towers.

Nekretaal
17-10-2006, 16:24
I think that all of the henchway is a good thing.

Like the above poster said, if you cant beat henchway, you need how to learn to play. But the players who are starting to learn how to play can run into henchway and recieve some rewards for their learning curve. (previously the game offered nothing but frustration and people left). (or the people who consistently lose to henchway can come to grips a lot easier and blame themselves and their builds for their losses).

I think that the power level and viability of hechway is about right to counter the "wait an hour to form a party" crowd. The henchway will win enough fame to make (rank griefing & holding out for the perfect ranked player with the perfect build) unattractive as a fame strategy except at the highest levels.

The amount of henchways are preventing absurd skips. We are getting to play more maps than we used to now.

Finally, I have no problem with the concept that, for a tournament like Halls, the early maps can be "easy" matches and the later matches can be "hard" matches. Henchway never makes it past the scarred tower, so its not really an issue except at the low levels of HA.

DoomFrost
17-10-2006, 16:24
I think the reason 6vs6 happened was because of all the r3 or above chatting requirements (my humble opinion) going on at the time. It was hard for me trying to find a group before because my rank at the time was r1. At least this makes it easier for some people trying to get the feel of HA even if they can't create/find a solid group. My humble opinion.

Edric
17-10-2006, 16:53
I knew this would result in the replies that no skilled team should lose to henchway. As other posters have noted, the problem with henchway is not in a 1v1 situation but on altar style maps or any map where you get into a 1v1v1 battle. If you are on an altar map against two henchways, my experience is that they go after the non-henchway teams.

I've only lost to henchway two times straight out where its 1v1. I'm ashamed to even admit that but one of those two losses came since the 6v6 format change. I thought we had more build variety but last night I fought henchway on almost every map except the relic runs. They were even making it to the halls which is just not right. Say what you will about henchway being free fame but I doubt anyone playing on an altar map recently has not seen a hench team win at least once.

I think henchway should be a last resort and really should only win in rare circumstances....bringing back Burial Mounds may fix the problem?

Fafner
17-10-2006, 17:42
I knew this would result in the replies that no skilled team should lose to henchway. As other posters have noted, the problem with henchway is not in a 1v1 situation but on altar style maps or any map where you get into a 1v1v1 battle. If you are on an altar map against two henchways, my experience is that they go after the non-henchway teams.

I think henchway should be a last resort and really should only win in rare circumstances....bringing back Burial Mounds may fix the problem?

I agree with you about bringing back Burial Mounds, but I'm not sure it would solve the problem; if you're not up to snuff, henchway will still beat you here.

In terms of altar maps, henchway can't usually hold against a good team. Where I do see the problem is for new HA players. I think 6v6 was implemented for inexperienced players. Now they can get a group easier...and in early matches are more likely to face other inexperienced groups...and some good ones. If they get eliminated by henchway rather than in your standard match, then their first lesson is in how to beat henchway. If they can make it through this, then theyre off and running. I just hope they can keep their morale up enough to survive this annoyance.


Personally, I like henchway because they allow less skips and more consec. fame.

JodoKast
17-10-2006, 19:06
I knew this would result in the replies that no skilled team should lose to henchway. As other posters have noted, the problem with henchway is not in a 1v1 situation but on altar style maps or any map where you get into a 1v1v1 battle. If you are on an altar map against two henchways, my experience is that they go after the non-henchway teams.


What is wrong with going for the strongest first ? I think that this has nothing to do with Henchway, you would see the same in a match that feature a top guild and two low ranked pugs.

Ayumu
17-10-2006, 19:25
Two teams ganking one has nothing to do with Henchway and everything to do with the fact that 3 team maps are flawed by design. And it's the very reason they're wrong. The worst team in the world can win against the best team in the world depending on what the third team decides to do. A very extreme kind of luck factor.

Henchway wining halls isn't anything new either, it happened before and it's not like it's happening all the time now.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7453/anonhenchwayxc6.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anonhenchwayxc6.jpg)

Degas
17-10-2006, 20:37
Never played HoH so I will post a question.

What is henchway? Is it a player using 5 henchies? If so, even if there's 2 teams like this against u, can't u just kill the 2 players leading them? Pretty much crash the leader and the troops go into disarray... Which is what happens to henchies, they would just attack random (either the weakest or closest enemy, which could be a henchie from the other team)

Ayumu
17-10-2006, 20:55
In theory: Yes.
But the henchies will rez. A lot. The healer hench even has a hard rez. And then there's the second team probably ignoring the henchway team and concentrating on you. Of cource you can gank them too. But then there's the time limit, now lowered to just 4 minutes. Both teams whould have to be extraordinary incompetent to be wiped one after the other in under 4 minutes.
Doing a 1 on 1 with another team on a 3 team map is extremely dangerous because the third team might (and probably will) join in. That's why 4 of the 8 HA maps now basicly consist of 3 teams staring at each other and waiting for someone else do make the fist move (aka error).

Edric
17-10-2006, 21:51
As it has been pointed out repeatedly in this and other forums...even good teams lose to henchway due to the overwhelming pressure faced on three team maps. Most groups can only run a two monk backline now if they hope to be able to kill anything. This makes holding even more challenging than it was a few weeks ago.

ranmasama
18-10-2006, 05:45
Our guild (Redemption With Revenge Rwr) has won halls about 8 times (we held 5 straight tonight) using 2 henchies (healer and mage). Don't misunderstand that henchies are too good but a good player can be better than a hench and also provide the same strengths as a hench. I will agree that henchway has an advantage in altar maps since its 4 minutes and the real players may disregard them and fight the other real team. I think maybe extending the time in Altar maps will help stop the "discrimination" so in other words the real team will have more time to stop the henchway team. I really hope they keep the henchies because people will start adjusting and knowing how to stop henchies. Trust me there are plenty of ways to stop henchies both fundamentally and skill wise.

Nekretaal
18-10-2006, 17:52
Never played HoH so I will post a question.

What is henchway? Is it a player using 5 henchies? If so, even if there's 2 teams like this against u, can't u just kill the 2 players leading them? Pretty much crash the leader and the troops go into disarray... Which is what happens to henchies, they would just attack random (either the weakest or closest enemy, which could be a henchie from the other team)

Player take henchmen with them to escape the tedious rank griefing, and waiting, and party-forming hassels in HA.

So-called Hechway became a lot easier to form because now 2 players can take four henchmen and that forms a complete group.

When rank griefing and party forming are bad, a player with henchmen will lose A LOT, but still win enough fame to out fame-per-hour the slow forming "perfect groups."

Why wait to form groups when you can actually play and earn as much or more fame in the same time period?

Henchmen have some strengths (the healer is good at healing spike damage; the elementalist uses the recently buffed mind burn for consecutive spikes [and always triggers the bonus damage on the skill]); but they are predictable and not smart. Henchway can farm noobs on the first map, and can "steal" wins in 3-way broken tower map (despite the fact that the only real player in the group is severly gimped by carrying the orb) due to the politics of three way matches, but good teams should beat them and almost always do. Henchway cant survive the (third) scarred tower map, so its not a real issue for serious players.

I think that the amount of hecnhway being run is a good thing, it adds a certain amount of balance to the early maps, and reduces the learning curve for new players. It gives good teams warmup matches, and I have no problem with a ladder tournament progressing in difficulty like a ladder.

Mathius Clarkus
18-10-2006, 23:43
henchmen are important for people with trouble finding a group and those who want to play with only a friend. True, henchway is annoying but its hardly a problem. A team that cn't beat henchway is incompetant indeed. They will never make to the halls and are easy fame. Eventuallly people will realise this and stop using it.
PS. there are those who will always resist change for the sake of it being change. I personally beleive 6v6 is an improvement (quicker finiding groups, easier to organise, new tactics, we have 8v8 gvg already) but the thousands of people who flooded in for the 6v6 event who wern't there before and the new popularity HA received temporarily have to bring numbers to my side of the arguement.

ZiegDivine
19-10-2006, 02:45
So half your first matches will be vs henchway, after this you shouldn't meet them....

unless you consistently lose on the broken towers.

I've faced henchway in HoH. Do you know how disappointing it is to see [TF] on one side ... and henchway on the other? It takes half the fun out of holding if I'm not beating good teams.

P.S. We won that match.

Wuzzman
20-10-2006, 00:07
The said part is that the henchies fight better then people soo....is it my fault you lost to henchies? What I really want is my Bip Necro so i don't ever need nooby pug idiots again.

Wuzzman
20-10-2006, 00:18
henchmen are important for people with trouble finding a group and those who want to play with only a friend. True, henchway is annoying but its hardly a problem. A team that cn't beat henchway is incompetant indeed. They will never make to the halls and are easy fame. Eventuallly people will realise this and stop using it.
PS. there are those who will always resist change for the sake of it being change. I personally beleive 6v6 is an improvement (quicker finiding groups, easier to organise, new tactics, we have 8v8 gvg already) but the thousands of people who flooded in for the 6v6 event who wern't there before and the new popularity HA received temporarily have to bring numbers to my side of the arguement.

How many active districts in american district of hero ascent now? 1.
How many active districts in international district of hero ascent now? 3.

My conclusion. During the event what attracted people was not 6v6 but DOUBLE FAME. And thus you give people 6v6 and no double fame what do you get? 4 active disticts in hero ascent(what I mean by active is a district that doesn't look like a ghost town). Henchies will always be used. Also with the hero system I can easily not have any need for human players for a quick 1-3 games if I wanted to. THIS IS NOT THE END OF PVP.

Actually my theory is that hero system will be the good beginning not the end. No more bothering with the kid who speaks in all caps. Or the idiot who just came from pve and refuses to use any build but w/mo. Or the pugs that refuses to use any build other then fotm. Now I have people who retreat when I say retreat, try builds when I want to try builds and most of all those human players I do play with will all be friends. Pvp will slowly be weeded of all the horrible players since we just don't need them anymore. Now only friends, guildies, or those with proper manors and willing to try new things can stay in my group. Come on NIGHTFALLS!!!

Wish Resign
20-10-2006, 05:31
Though henchway teams are extremely easy to beat, I still dont like them for the reason that they are all the same and that I want to play against real people.

Imo, putting henchies in PvP defeats the purpose of the PvP concept. Your not suppose to go, "well I know this henchy is going to lead off with this skill so ill just use (insert skill) to counter it" when you are in halls.

Also the reason to even play PvP is to learn how to play better and progess better by playing with and against people. If you are playing against henchways how are you getting better?

Also I don't know about y'all, but I wanna earn fame for the reason of accually beating real people in real teams. If your just farming fame off of the occassional henchway how would you feel that your fame (since we are talking about halls) is justified to have, since you really only beat some teams of 2 people?

Selene Raseth
20-10-2006, 12:04
Did you just say you don't like henchy because they use the exact same skill order and the exact same build as usual? That's what halls is for the most part, people running set builds with set skills that you know what they're going to do as soon as you see the class combos. So that has got to be the strangest arguement against henchies I've ever seen :) Just kinda doesn't work.

Wuzzman
20-10-2006, 15:01
henchies are not subs for real people in pvp. Henchies allow you to pvp... by yourself...something that I think guild wars needs. Ever get a level 17 in ra? Totally disrepectful to his team and everyone he comes across, simple because its so easy to make a level 20 that you have to have the mind set of "**** everyone who plays pvp" to enter into an arena where we have no choice but to watch you load up. Ever get a monk who said "healing" as his build in hero ascent? Flames you when you don't invite him or kick him once you realize that "healing" includes bane signet or mending or healing breeze of all skills. Do I really need to deal with these kids when I want to pvp? No. Plain and simple. I should be gaining faction from those noobs.

Miraino Kakera
20-10-2006, 16:19
I've won and held many a time with henchway during 8v8. Henchway is hardly overpowered. Sure the AI may have improved a bit when it comes to simple things, but henchies have nothing in the tactics department. If you can't drop henchies, that's your own problem. If you can't keep a ghostly from capping, either your build sucks, or you do. Better hope it's the former.. Zomg, stop b*tching about henchway, pew pew.

edit: poor grammar ftw

Mathius Clarkus
20-10-2006, 16:20
you saw a henchway team in HOH?!
sorry but i don't beleive you...

fallot
20-10-2006, 18:55
you saw a henchway team in HOH?!
sorry but i don't beleive you...

You can catch henchway holding at off-peak times. Saw Moa Birds do it today, nothing spectacular.

David Holtzman
20-10-2006, 21:00
you saw a henchway team in HOH?!
sorry but i don't beleive you...

I've done it a number of times. Unfortunately the external drive I have screens on is broken, but if you want I can probably get some from a guildy.

Wish Resign
20-10-2006, 21:28
Did you just say you don't like henchy because they use the exact same skill order and the exact same build as usual? That's what halls is for the most part, people running set builds with set skills that you know what they're going to do as soon as you see the class combos. So that has got to be the strangest arguement against henchies I've ever seen :) Just kinda doesn't work.

Thats not really what i was trying to say.My point was that when you fight hench groups the henchies just act like monsters basically from PvE except they will follow you where ever you go making the match way too easy for even a remotely decent team to beat. For example, the henchies pretty much stand there when you are pounding away at thier face.

It also seems like a few of the henchies use like 1-2 skills exclusively when i fight them, making the fight that much easier. When fighting people the unpredicability and coordination are what make matches challenging.

Also when fighting real people teams will change tactics midway through battle causing you to adapt as well with your own tactics. You can't really tell your henchies what you are planning to do.

Selene Raseth
20-10-2006, 21:39
Thats not really what i was trying to say. I my point was that when you fight hench groups you know what to expect on which skills they use and it seems like they use it all in the same order. When fighting people the unpredicability is what make matches challenging. Also when fighting real people teams will change tactics midway through battle causing you to adapt as well with your own tactics.
Only thing is most FotM builds in halls do the same thing. Enfeebling Blood? Here comes oppressive gaze spike. Rangers with some warriors? Lots of traps and every 10 secs we'll see ViM used. Shadow Strike? Here comes the life steal follow-ups. Death's Charge ele's? Here comes Starburst, inferno, flame burst.

There is very little variation in how things are run when people play them over how henchies play them. It's all the same in the end, until people start coming up with their own dang builds.

Super Kenny
22-10-2006, 03:09
Only thing is most FotM builds in halls do the same thing. Enfeebling Blood? Here comes oppressive gaze spike. Rangers with some warriors? Lots of traps and every 10 secs we'll see ViM used. Shadow Strike? Here comes the life steal follow-ups. Death's Charge ele's? Here comes Starburst, inferno, flame burst.

There is very little variation in how things are run when people play them over how henchies play them. It's all the same in the end, until people start coming up with their own dang builds.

You haven't been to halls lately I guess? Bspike isn't as popular as it was during 8v8. Vimway is dying down from when it was at the start and the eles thing are just too darn stupid from the start(few counters: spreading out, prot spirit, kiting) Them starburst ele can't keep up their damage too long so.

6v6 has made HA A LOT more balanced when it comes to groups, really.

Ayumu
22-10-2006, 03:46
6v6 has made HA A LOT more balanced when it comes to groups, really.Is that the reason most teams these days have four Rangers?

Ok, so not really most teams. But ignoring the henchway teams there aren't many teams that don't have 2 monks, 2 rangers and 2 others, often rangers too.

One of the reasons for this is the fact that a ranger can interrupt the ghostly indefinitly, which is much more important now thanks to the mapchanges.

I'm not saying HA is any less balanced now. But it is not more balanced. With 95% of the teams you can tell exactly what they'll do and what skill's they'll be useing, just like before. And even before you can see the first member of the other team, just say "condition overload" and you'll be right one out of three times.

Chriseth
22-10-2006, 09:41
I beat henchway korean style balanced, shhh.

Another Fess
23-10-2006, 10:03
Why don't use it if you are not hi-ranked and don't want to play as IWAY, VIM, Starburt, ect.? If you just can't find a team?What you say?

scamPOR
23-10-2006, 12:26
Why don't use it if you are not hi-ranked and don't want to play as IWAY, VIM, Starburt, ect.? If you just can't find a team?What you say?

How about getting some social skills... Most of the really high ranked people quit. It shouldn't be too hard to make a dual smite team... or something similar. I'm sure if you can't find an unranked you could make one....

Bacon
24-10-2006, 05:10
6v6 has made HA A LOT more balanced when it comes to groups, really.

Do you play HA? Yes, that's a serious question.

Option 1: 1 apply poison, 1 melandrus, maybe a PD mesmer with them
Option 2: Option 1 with a E/Me with PD instead of the mesmer
Option 3: Smite with a PD or ranger
Option 4: High ranked henchway. Which actually nets you a good amount of fame.

If you face a non-noob team, I guarantee their build will fit into one of those. And yes, if you have a high ranked monk and a high ranked support (e/mo or shutdown or something), you will make an unbelievable amount of fame.

asxtc
25-10-2006, 14:32
Dual Smite...

It hasnt yet got the same bad taste as IWAY / VIM / Henchway...but its getting there.

I like the new 2 ppl +4 hench version...it passes the time...is a bit of fun....and you can actually win fame from it. (which is hard to do standing in Ascent w8ting for someone to reroll/dload vent/map out to buy a pve skill/rage quit on Zaishen)

If henchway are used well...its possible to roll even an organised team and send them back to rethink the build. Unfortunately (like starbursters) its pretty much an all or nothing tactic..after the first barrage of skills (some not inconsiderate dmg output) thier ticket is spent and most teams can survive / reorg / cleanup. ....its still fun tho.

Super Kenny
27-10-2006, 04:14
Do you play HA? Yes, that's a serious question.

Option 1: 1 apply poison, 1 melandrus, maybe a PD mesmer with them
Option 2: Option 1 with a E/Me with PD instead of the mesmer
Option 3: Smite with a PD or ranger
Option 4: High ranked henchway. Which actually nets you a good amount of fame.

If you face a non-noob team, I guarantee their build will fit into one of those. And yes, if you have a high ranked monk and a high ranked support (e/mo or shutdown or something), you will make an unbelievable amount of fame.

I'd like someone to shoot me a 40 fame win, like it was in 8v8, me and my guild have not gone past 6 or more consecutive in 6v6. Anyways, rank don't mean jack, I've seen a rank 9 who thought of bringing spellbreaker on a N/Mo infuser.

And yes, I play HA, it's the only form of PVP me and my guilds do.

Bacon
27-10-2006, 04:48
I'd like someone to shoot me a 40 fame win, like it was in 8v8, me and my guild have not gone past 6 or more consecutive in 6v6. Anyways, rank don't mean jack, I've seen a rank 9 who thought of bringing spellbreaker on a N/Mo infuser.

And yes, I play HA, it's the only form of PVP me and my guilds do.

What does you're guild not being able to win 6 consec have to do with HA being more balanced or not. I didn't say HA is now easier, I said its less balanced.

Most teams have 2 spots dedicated for interupting. 2 Rangers, ranger and a PD, etc etc. Add in your 2 monks. Add in the warrior. Thats one spot for variety. By balanced I mean significant changes in everyones build, and obviously its pretty much the same builds over and over.

So you can't roll through IWAYs and VIMWAYs for easy 40 fame runs. QQ. I don't like the 6v6 either, actually I absolutely hate it. That doesn't mean I can't make 40 fame runs.

A Rank 9 mentioning a N/Mo sb/infuse has nothing to do with henchway, nor if HA is more balanced. And I ran one in a qz/spirit spam build before. Made it to halls... no major skip... Just shows if you have higher skilled people running something, even henchway, it will make fame.