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MaximumSquid
24-10-2006, 17:32
At level 16 it's 80 armor ignoring damage (http://www.gwonline.net/wiki/index.php/Paragon_Skills) for only 7 adrenaline. . .

For a non-elite I can't think of anything else that comes close.

Azure Eyes
24-10-2006, 17:48
twisting fangs beats it i think. Compared to other adrenal skills it is probably the strongest but its probably not overpowered.

oh well we can see in 4 days if it even stays the same.

MaximumSquid
24-10-2006, 18:19
I think Twisting Fangs is a bad comparison.

It's a melee energy skill that has a 15 second recharge

where as. . .

Blazing Spear is ranged and free to use as often as you get that addrenaline.

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Twisting Fangs works out very well with Flourish {e}, but I don't know if the synergy is going to be as strong as Blazing Spear + Focused Anger {e} (http://www.gwonline.net/wiki/index.php/Paragon_Skills)

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Deep wounds asside I think the damage between the two would be very close honestly.

Paragon doesn't exactly have troubles getting deep wounds on a target either! :shocked:

Auntie I
24-10-2006, 18:25
How did you figure the 80 damage?

At Rank 16 I get 33 direct damage with 3 seconds of burning for 42 additional damage, which gives me 75 damage. Nice, I agree. It's also listed as a Spear Attack so I don't think it's armor ignoring. (Could be wrong on this)


Maximium, you've been here long enough to know not to link to Guildwiki. Please stop!

Servant of Kali
24-10-2006, 18:47
But gwwiki is great, what would we do without it.

MaximumSquid
24-10-2006, 18:57
Auntie I: Ah I see GWO finally has the skills up!

What can i say other than "My Bad" :drunk:

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You are right again about my damage calculation. . . for some reason I punched in the burning as 16 damage a second when it should only be 14.

Pluss damage and degen still bypass armor though so you'll still be taking off a nice chuck. . .

All-Be-It a total of 74 instead of 80!

Auntie I
24-10-2006, 18:58
To Servant:
I don't disagree that Guild Wiki is a useful site, it just that the policy on this site is that we do not allow links to it. Therefore, links will be removed. People who have been on the site for long enough to know better or who have been warned will be punished for breaking the rules. We do give new posters the benefit of the doubt and just remove the link and warn them not to post it.

To Maximium,
No problem. I have no idea why there was a delay in getting the info up. I just switched the links, no biggie. However, even if the information is not available here, you can't link to Guildwiki. Site policy!

Fownkaymownkay
24-10-2006, 20:50
Power Spike? :P

Bah, long recharge hmm. How about..Ah okay I'm stuck.

Yeah, Blazing Spear owns face. :grin:

Patccmoi
24-10-2006, 21:05
At Rank 16 I get 33 direct damage with 3 seconds of burning for 42 additional damage, which gives me 75 damage. Nice, I agree. It's also listed as a Spear Attack so I don't think it's armor ignoring. (Could be wrong on this)


Actually it's +32 damage with +42 damage from burning. All that damage ignores armor (though the 42 burning damage might not be met or might not add anything, for example if you hit a target that is already at -8 degen it'll only be +12 damage). So for a total of 74 'armor ignoring' damage.

In fact, the attack will do more than that considering there is also the base spear damage.

It's powerful, yes, but too powerful? Don't think so. 7 adrenal with a spear on a class that is likely to use Adrenal on non-attack skills (which depletes your attack skills) isn't very fast recharge. And it's truly not as if you were doing 74 damage straight on attack, which would allow for crazy spikes.

Malchiel
24-10-2006, 21:09
I think it's too powerful. Need toning down. Then there's mighty throw too, 2 adl or such.

Range is the advantage that paragon makes up for having to use up their adl on other skills.

Auntie I
24-10-2006, 21:12
Actually it's +32 damage with +42 damage from burning. All that damage ignores armor (though the 42 burning damage might not be met or might not add anything, for example if you hit a target that is already at -8 degen it'll only be +12 damage). So for a total of 74 'armor ignoring' damage.

In fact, the attack will do more than that considering there is also the base spear damage.

It's powerful, yes, but too powerful? Don't think so. 7 adrenal with a spear on a class that is likely to use Adrenal on non-attack skills (which depletes your attack skills) isn't very fast recharge. And it's truly not as if you were doing 74 damage straight on attack, which would allow for crazy spikes.
:tongue:
I was going from memory on figuring the difference between rank 15 and rank 16, so 33 is pretty darn close! Don't be so picky!

Artemis Shadowhawk
24-10-2006, 21:22
Well the burning is a condition. Look at Barbed Spear. Bleeding for a possible 18 seconds? So that's 108 damage.

Or you can look at Cruel Spear, which is 33 damage and a deep wound. Which is around an easy 100 or more damage.

I understand that you can argue that bleeding takes longer to accumulate that damage and that the deep wound can also be removed to gain back that health. But by just simply stating the 42 burning damage as guaranteed damage is very similar.

I do admit though that is very powerful and I'm really amazed it didn't get hit by the elite bat like every other paragon skill did in NFPE.

NeferJackal
24-10-2006, 21:38
I dont think Blazing Spear will become an elite, if you compare with what Rangers gets, which is QUITE stronger!

Burning Arrow 10e 8r Elite Bow Attack
If this attack hits, you strike for +10...26 damage and cause Burning for 1...4 seconds.

With 16 Marksmanship, this arrow deals +31 instant damage and 5 seconds of Burning. This results in a total of 101 damage to a target, regardless of armor.


To compare

Blazing Spear 7a Spear Attack
If this attack hits, it deals +5...25 damage and sets target foe on fire for 1...3 second(s).

+32 damage and 3 seconds of burning at 16 spear mastery, for a total of 74 damage.

Servant of Kali
24-10-2006, 23:56
Malchiel - Mighty Throw has 3sec cast. That's right, 3sec cast. Yeah, spear travels faster but... 3sec fast. Now, unless i did my calculations wrong, i dont see how Mighty Throw pays off as i can land 2 spears during that time, which will do more dmg than 1 Mighty Throw.

Auntie I
25-10-2006, 00:27
I did try Mighty Throw during the Preview and I have to say that 3 seconds is just much too long to cast this. Make it 4 Adrenaline and a 1 second cast and it would be at least usable.

Traynor Dragonblade
25-10-2006, 02:49
/agreed on Mighty Throw...looks interesting but it seems that 3 second cast is just a killer. Paragons might not always seem to be interupt targets but thats alot of time to distract, etc.



Here's a noobish question...how does IAS deal with attack skills that have an activation/cast time? Does it speed up this as well? (i.e. drop the activation time?)

oops...sorrys I'll stay OT:embarassed:

I wouldn't say Blazing Spear is overpowered...a good portion of it's damg comes from a condition, one that can be removed. That and spears like bows I'm sure will "miss" some as well on moving targets. The adrenaline gain on a spear-chucker too keeping up with this skill as well as other attacks and non-attack skills might not make it spammable, at least as far as I know.

IMO

NeferJackal
25-10-2006, 02:51
Pardon me, but this thread is about Blazing Spear, Perhaps a mod should sort the Mighty Throw posts into it's own thread instead of derailing this.

Servant of Kali
25-10-2006, 11:12
Yea mod sort it. Anyhow we have concluded Blazing Spear is ok, at least i think it is atm. Now, let's go back to Mighty Throw. 3sec cast... wow... 2sec cast with IAS. Wow. For a bonus which is less than what u would get if u shot 2 normal spears. So... is it meant for spike?

Auntie I
25-10-2006, 13:18
Nope, no need to separate them. The discussion evolved naturally and I don't see anything wrong with using another skill for contrast.

I also agree that one of the things that balance Blazing Spear is that it CAN miss. There are a number of ways that any attack can be made to miss, especially when you're talking about a ranged attack. The Ranger skill Whirling Defense comes to mind, as well as the Monk elite Shield of Deflection. There are lots of others. If Blazing Spear begins to see a lot of use, counters will appear on skill bars.

MaximumSquid
25-10-2006, 15:41
Blazing Spear vs. Burning Arrow {e}?

Not sure why an elite skill came up, but I think you'll find Blazing Spear to be better than it just by using an IAS stance to spam it more often.

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I also realize that you can do more damage with say bleed or deep wounds, but these get removed all the time by healers.

Bleed especially since it flags that foes health bar. . .

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While we are on the deep wound subject though, lets talk about that a little.

Everyone likes Eviscerate {e} + Executioner's Strike right?

Blazing Spear + Merciless Spear is on par with it, but there's no elite used. . .

That's if you want to use an Adrenaline skill for deep wounds.

You also have:

Spear of Envy
Vicious Attack
and the party buff. . .
"Find Their Weekness!" to play with. . .

These all cost energy, but if you are making an Adrenagon you'll have plenty of that to burn! (no pun intended) :tongue:

Servant of Kali
25-10-2006, 15:55
Everyone likes Eviscerate {e} + Executioner's Strike right?
Blazing Spear + Merciless Spear is on par with it, but there's no elite used. . .

Sorry, no. Eviscerate is an elite which gives +dmg as well.

Merciless Spear is WORSE than a non-elite axe skill Dismember:

"Merciless Spear. If this attack hits a foe with less than 50% Health, that foe suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds. 6adrenaline"

"Dismember. If it hits, this axe blow will inflict a Deep Wound on the target foe, lowering that foe's maximum Health by 20% for 5...17 seconds. 5adrenaline"


So, Dismember has unconditional deep wound, while merciless only works on targets with less than 50% health. Dismember requires 1 adrenaline less.

And you actually want to nerf Merciless Spear..

NeferJackal
25-10-2006, 16:04
I think a high ranked Go for the Eyes works better with Vicious Attack to help produce a reliable deep wound application without needing an elite. Plus plenty of damage from the critting attack.

And Go for the Eyes benefits your entire Party.

MaximumSquid
25-10-2006, 23:50
Servant of Kali: Where are you pulling this from?


And you actually want to nerf Merciless Spear..

If your comming in late it's fine man. . . just back up and read the other posts!

Should get you up to speed. . . :wink:

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NeferJackal: Now that would be a pretty nice spike. People are saying that "Go For The Eyes!" is going to get nerfed, but vicious has a what?

A 5? 10 second recharge?

That would actually work out very well in an adrenaline build.

NeferJackal
25-10-2006, 23:57
Vicious Attack 5e 8r Spear Attack
If this attack hits, you deal +5...17 damage. If you land a critical hit with this attack, target foe suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...13 seconds.

Servant of Kali
26-10-2006, 00:36
If your comming in late it's fine man. . . just back up and read the other posts!

Im obviously missing something because i have no idea what ur talking about :> but it doesnt matter i guess

Fownkaymownkay
26-10-2006, 02:14
YEAH! I finally know what can top BS..

Brutal Strike. Yeah, the target has to be less than 50% hp, but still. 5e, 5r? Madness, pure madness. Specially when you hit Mursaat for 133 and Jades for 94. And thats direct-spike damage, none of that DoT stuff.


Onwards to the topic at hand:
If we had a spiker team it'd look like this: 1 spiker with Spear of Envy, the other with Merciless Spear. (Along with other high-damage spear attacks) Both with GftE. Maaaajor spikeage. And I dont see GftE being nerfed, Anet is dumb, sure, but not THAT dumb.

Arctus Redryn
26-10-2006, 05:53
I think a high ranked Go for the Eyes works better with Vicious Attack to help produce a reliable deep wound application without needing an elite. Plus plenty of damage from the critting attack.

And Go for the Eyes benefits your entire Party.

Agreed.

However, about Blazing Arrow, I find it weak when compared to Blazing Spear, when you consider Blazing Arrow is elite...

And as I have said several times, I think "Go for the Eyes!" is definitely one skill to be changed, as it is way too good. Use it with Galrath Slash, Final Thrust, and "Find Their Weakness!", and you have two attacks, +120 damage, a critical, and a Deep Wound...

MaximumSquid
26-10-2006, 14:11
Fownkaymownkay: hmmmm. .. . brutal strike. .. brutal strike. . .

Ah here we go!


Your animal companion attempts a Brutal Strike that deals +5...29 damage. If the attack strikes a foe whose health is below 50% that foe takes an additional +5...29 damage.

It's 10energy :undecided:. . . but at rank 16 it does do the same armor ignoring damage as blazing spear! (+37/+37)

You can lower that obviously with expertise, but i think you'd need 12 or 13 to get the energy cost you claim. . . Something that usually isn't worth doing if you already have 14,15,16 into beast mastery.

The bonus damage is conditional too; where as, blazing spear will work every time unless your target already has full degen or is already on fire!

Beastmasters are very tough to top DPS wise, but just comparing these two skills up side by side I still say blazing is still better and by a healthy margin.

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Arctus Redryn: "GftE!" + "FTW" + Galrath + Final?

You'd need more than one person to make the shouts worth it, but that still would be a huge amount of burst damage. . . :smiley:

Deep wounds on Galrath or Final Thrust is no joke either! :shocked:

NeferJackal
26-10-2006, 15:04
Fownkaymownkay: hmmmm. .. . brutal strike. .. brutal strike. . .

Ah here we go!



It's 10energy :undecided:. . . but at rank 16 it does do the same armor ignoring damage as blazing spear! (+37/+37)

You can lower that obviously with expertise, but i think you'd need 12 or 13 to get the energy cost you claim. . . Something that usually isn't worth doing if you already have 14,15,16 into beast mastery.

The bonus damage is conditional too; where as, blazing spear will work every time unless your target already has full degen or is already on fire!

Beastmasters are very tough to top DPS wise, but just comparing these two skills up side by side I still say blazing is still better and by a healthy margin.

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Arctus Redryn: "GftE!" + "FTW" + Galrath + Final?

You'd need more than one person to make the shouts worth it, but that still would be a huge amount of burst damage. . . :smiley:

Deep wounds on Galrath or Final Thrust is no joke either! :shocked:

Heh, just struck me 'FTW' For the Win! :)

MaximumSquid
26-10-2006, 20:15
NeferJackal: hehe yeah I saw that too. . . :smiley:

It's true though. . .

Your team usually isn't winning unless someone is inflicting deep wounds on a target.

Only way reliable way really to shorten the healing of monks.

Predatory Season is also one I like to use, but I get yelled at sometimes =p

Servant of Kali
28-10-2006, 00:51
Blazing got nerfed. At 12attrib it did +25dmg. Now it does +17.

Beomagi
29-10-2006, 07:41
Even then - given the now buffed mark of rodgort and anthem of flame, on fire is going to become a popular condition. Blazing spear's flaming armor ignoring degen is only going to make a difference if the target wasn't on fire to begin with. Consider how powerful a single paragon's anthem of flame would be with serpent's quickness, or echo. Looking through their line, they dont have any other really damaging spear skills. Disrupting throw and harriers could have been nice, but too energy intensive for harriers and both take a long time to cycle. Without blazing spear, They're just a party multipler.