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dhwvaden
29-10-2006, 19:03
I would like to give my opinion about this. Last two days I've been running Heroway in HA but 95% of the time I come across a half way decent guild, they pwn me and my build. And it does not matter what map it is, or the type build I've made, this I am experiencing so far. So I think the problem is not that Heroes and their AI is superior it's that people are not going in to HA with a plan or the right skills.
Overall we should give this a chance to play out. If it is truly unfair then it should be balanced. Overall though I would like to say that I have had great FUN with my heroes, and that it is a great addition to the overall game.

If anything this should be seen as new challenge and prove that human, strategy, and team work can defeat any thing.

ZiegDivine
29-10-2006, 19:09
Explain to me please, please, please, for the love of god, or whatever the deity that you worship is, how on earth do BOTS fit into a PLAYER VS. ****ING PLAYER arena? They don't. It has nothing to do with unfairness, nothing to do with h4x-like interrupts of the bots, it has the do with the fact that HA is now nothing more than a PV ****ING E area.

P.S. don't run heroway, kthnxbye.

Dont Eat Brown Snow
29-10-2006, 19:56
plz run it.. free fame for me.. bots maybe got improved.. but their AI still suxs.. fx 2 bot healers heals the same target.. they dont do great interrupt.. if peeps run heroway let them do it.. they will lose against any team wit a build and a plan.. u cant abandon it cuz of some stupid random pugs from euro1 cant kill them.. and some minor tactics like wanding trapper is also a + for real players.. wats the problem i ask?? run it for me:D

Bacon
29-10-2006, 20:04
I would like to give my opinion about this. Last two days I've been running Heroway in HA but 95% of the time I come across a half way decent guild, they pwn me and my build. And it does not matter what map it is, or the type build I've made, this I am experiencing so far. So I think the problem is not that Heroes and their AI is superior it's that people are not going in to HA with a plan or the right skills.
Overall we should give this a chance to play out. If it is truly unfair then it should be balanced. Overall though I would like to say that I have had great FUN with my heroes, and that it is a great addition to the overall game.

If anything this should be seen as new challenge and prove that human, strategy, and team work can defeat any thing.

Uh... hmm... Go back to PvE and don't support Heroes in PvP.

You do know what the P's stand for, don't you? Here's a hint. It ends with eople.

dhwvaden
29-10-2006, 21:07
My stance on this is that there is room for Heroes in HA. I stand by this and I always will.

The percentage of people that are hard core HA players are only but a tiny group in the whole entire population. Anet knows this and it wants to make it more attractive to a wider audience. That is to be applauded.

My point is times are changing. Either you adapt, or you become part of the past.

So I call on those who agree with this revoutionary change, and voice your support.

JodoKast
29-10-2006, 21:26
Uh... hmm... Go back to PvE and don't support Heroes in PvP.

You do know what the P's stand for, don't you? Here's a hint. It ends with eople.

Yet, half of what you do in HA is interrupt a NPC GHOST

And half of what you do in gvg is killing npcs.

Victorious
29-10-2006, 22:04
Well, here are my two cents on the heroes in HA subject.

1- I think the use of heroes/henchmen give newer players the opportunity to get the feel for what HA is about, without spending 30 mins to find a PUG that will lose in the first 30 seconds. Nor do they have to worry about havent r3/6 any longer to find a halfway decent group. Players without a mic, or who cant use TS/vent due to computer problems or whatever, can now simply bring their heroes along to at least gain some semblance of understanding in HA. Sure, they'll be missing out on the joy of running a solid build with a good group of people, but having the foundation for HA will, I think, help them in the long run.

2-It's brand new, so get over it!!! I capped altar on broken tower from the start of the match, running a shock war, and still was able to run back and res my ghost for the win. Also ran in to an Err7 guy running solo with heroes/hench. It's new, it's oddly fun to mess around with, take it easy.

3- Free fame for the rest of us. With the abundance of communication we all have and use, coordination is amazingly simple against heroway teams. I'll take the fame! New players running into it are even able to easily capitalize against the numerous lack of hero/hench skill instabilities. I'd like to think i can manage my heroes as well as the next player, but it's tough to deal with a team that has even the vaguest sense of how to play HA.

Malchiel
29-10-2006, 22:23
Uh... hmm... Go back to PvE and don't support Heroes in PvP.

You do know what the P's stand for, don't you? Here's a hint. It ends with eople.

Huh heroes are designed by people, they're build around people, and their choice of skills. You are fighting against another player, not like the hero is there on their own. Not to mention ppl are micromanaging these heroes some what.

It's like saying RTS game isn't PvP because it isn't FPS and you aren't directly fighting the person but rather the units controlled by the other player. Don't be stupid. Even if the units in RTS has a certain autonomy it doesn't mean you aren't fighting the person behind those units.

Hey you know what, these bots are better than the mindless zombies that made up the Iway and Vimway groups. Much better. At least you get to run your own builds rather than given these 3 choices

1) Create your own guild and boss everybody around (yea right)
2) Wait forever for the right PuG
3) Join the Iway group.

If you can't win vs. bots you suck. Their AI is pretty horrible, they like to run around like headless chicken.

Yet strangely enough, they're still better than 70% (if not more) of random GW players out there.

Leave the bots alone.

grimwold
29-10-2006, 23:06
If you have half an hour to kill, or just plain dont feel like playing with real people, then hero way is good fun.

Your going to get beat the first time you meet a decent team, but its not like you spent a long time getting ready and expected anything more than a few quick games.

I dont see many hero teams after the first couple of maps anyway, just beat em, get your fame and move on to the real teams. As its been mentioned already, its a new feature, people are just messing about and having fun.

nightrunner
30-10-2006, 01:05
It's like saying RTS game isn't PvP because it isn't FPS and you aren't directly fighting the person but rather the units controlled by the other player. Don't be stupid. Even if the units in RTS has a certain autonomy it doesn't mean you aren't fighting the person behind those units.

Hey you know what, these bots are better than the mindless zombies that made up the Iway and Vimway groups. Much better. At least you get to run your own builds rather than given these 3 choices


Not a good analogy, IMO. In an RTS, winning is dependant on player strategy, so autoattacking units has little effect on the competition. In GW however, winning largely depends on teamwork and player skill. When that's replaced AI, the only human component is the design of the build, which is only a small part of the competition.

Bots might be better than the people that farmed IWAY or ViMway, but they were still humans. I can kill noobs in Counterstrike, or I can create a server with bots that are good enough to challenge me. I'm still going to play with the humans, not because it's fun to steamroll them, but because I enjoy knowing that I'm defeating another person. The same goes vice-versa, I'd rather get slaughtered vs skilled humans than kill hapless bots, just because it's more fun to play against humans.

Bacon
30-10-2006, 02:01
Yet, half of what you do in HA is interrupt a NPC GHOST

And half of what you do in gvg is killing npcs.

What does interupting a ghost have to do with the rest of the matches? You're not using the ghost as one of your players, you're using him to cap the alter (if its even an alter match.) Half of HA is interupting? 3/8 of the maps require interupting a ghostly. And thats only if you let your ghost die after he's capped.

Where did GvG come from... Little different than HA.



Huh heroes are designed by people, they're build around people, and their choice of skills. You are fighting against another player, not like the hero is there on their own. Not to mention ppl are micromanaging these heroes some what.

It's like saying RTS game isn't PvP because it isn't FPS and you aren't directly fighting the person but rather the units controlled by the other player. Don't be stupid. Even if the units in RTS has a certain autonomy it doesn't mean you aren't fighting the person behind those units.

Hey you know what, these bots are better than the mindless zombies that made up the Iway and Vimway groups. Much better. At least you get to run your own builds rather than given these 3 choices

1) Create your own guild and boss everybody around (yea right)
2) Wait forever for the right PuG
3) Join the Iway group.

If you can't win vs. bots you suck. Their AI is pretty horrible, they like to run around like headless chicken.

Yet strangely enough, they're still better than 70% (if not more) of random GW players out there.

Leave the bots alone.

People aren't micromanaging as much as you think. Tell me, when they load up a ranger with interupts, is it the person interupting 1/4 cast spells? I highly doubt that. Are they controlling the monk with immediate heals and prots when someone even starts taking damage? I highly doubt that as well.

RTS doesn't involve bots. The units don't do anything unless YOU tell them to do something. You're doing everything; what to build, where to go, what to attack, what skills to use at what time. Bots use AI. They use something when its logical to use it.

Their AI is NOT horrible, either. At certain times, their AI can surpass the human ability to play. I want you to play a monk, and while healing during a huge pressure spike affecting 2-3 people at once, find a target casting a 1 second spell as soon as you even select the target, interupt it, and continue healing through it. Sure, they're easy to beat, but the AI can be incredibly good at times.

So which would you have more fun doing. Killing bots and winning, or killing other human opponents and winning? That's what the problem is. PvP is meant for defeating other HUMAN teams, not farming off bots with one person doing practically nothing.

Malchiel
30-10-2006, 02:29
What does interupting a ghost have to do with the rest of the matches? You're not using the ghost as one of your players, you're using him to cap the alter (if its even an alter match.) Half of HA is interupting? 3/8 of the maps require interupting a ghostly. And thats only if you let your ghost die after he's capped.

Where did GvG come from... Little different than HA.




People aren't micromanaging as much as you think. Tell me, when they load up a ranger with interupts, is it the person interupting 1/4 cast spells? I highly doubt that. Are they controlling the monk with immediate heals and prots when someone even starts taking damage? I highly doubt that as well.

RTS doesn't involve bots. The units don't do anything unless YOU tell them to do something. You're doing everything; what to build, where to go, what to attack, what skills to use at what time. Bots use AI. They use something when its logical to use it.

Their AI is NOT horrible, either. At certain times, their AI can surpass the human ability to play. I want you to play a monk, and while healing during a huge pressure spike affecting 2-3 people at once, find a target casting a 1 second spell as soon as you even select the target, interupt it, and continue healing through it. Sure, they're easy to beat, but the AI can be incredibly good at times.

So which would you have more fun doing. Killing bots and winning, or killing other human opponents and winning? That's what the problem is. PvP is meant for defeating other HUMAN teams, not farming off bots with one person doing practically nothing.

No doubt as far as interrupting concerned the AIs are insane. But besides that... they suck. AI monks have little to no concept of energy management. They tend to over heal, wasting even more energy.

When attacked they run around without any real sense of direction. Running into traps, running too short and coming back again instead of trul kiting and so on.

Given peace and harmony they don't even know to put it on the other monk.

And the list just goes on. Yes AIs are crazy good when it comes to interrupting but anything else they're just plain indiscriminate to downright stupid.

Still AI is not horrible if you consider the majority of GW players. Leave them alone I want to be able to go HA w/o waiting an hour or more for a pug or join Iway team. Worse PUG balance team in HA is dead anyways. You take an hour to form one and they play like total noobs. At least with IWAY you don't have to take as long to form a group and usually got much further than "balanced"

Besides I don't want some random stranger in my team if I could help it. May be as an ally, but not in my team. I just don't know what they'll do. I want to know and dictate every skill that's to be run in my team. I just can't do that with human players without a lot of haggling and whining. Often not even then. Even with guildies humans don't take orders very well. And they won't play the build that you want most of the time.

Look humans suck, they're too noisy and most of them aren't even that great. So why spend an hour trying to recruit them to my team when I can just hench it?

Now if they'll just remove the blue glow around AIs that'd be perfect. So none can tell if it's Allesia the player or Allesia the hench.

Bacon
30-10-2006, 02:34
No doubt as far as interrupting concerned the AIs are insane. But besides that... they suck. AI monks have little to no concept of energy management. They tend to over heal, wasting even more energy.

When attacked they run around without any real sense of direction. Running into traps, running too short and coming back again instead of trul kiting and so on.

Given peace and harmony they don't even know to put it on the other monk.

And the list just goes on. Yes AIs are crazy good when it comes to interrupting but anything else they're just plain indiscriminate to downright stupid.

Still AI is not horrible if you consider the majority of GW players. Leave them alone I want to be able to go HA w/o waiting an hour or more for a pug or join Iway team. Worse PUG balance team in HA is dead anyways. You take an hour to form one and they play like total noobs. At least with IWAY you don't have to take as long to form a group and usually got much further than "balanced"

Besides I don't want some random stranger in my team if I could help it. May be as an ally, but not in my team. I just don't know what they'll do. I want to know and dictate every skill that's to be run in my team. I just can't do that with human players without a lot of haggling and whining. Often not even then. Even with guildies humans don't take orders very well. And they won't play the build that you want most of the time.

Look humans suck, they're too noisy and most of them aren't even that great. So why spend an hour trying to recruit them to my team when I can just hench it?

Now if they'll just remove the blue glow around AIs that'd be perfect. So none can tell if it's Allesia the player or Allesia the hench.


Yes the monks overheal, but give them channeling, and they should be good to go due to running into groups. Besides monks, the AI isn't really that bad. I've seen an ele start spiking a warrior who just used frenzy, little things like that. The main problem with the AI is interupting is just too good.

I guess from the lower ranked non experienced person's side of it, the heroes can be a good thing. But the people who actually want to play other humans in HA are getting screwed over due too all these hero/hench teams. It's simply not fun anymore. The 6v6 limited creativity, which was bad enough. Now that more than half of HA is one person teams, it just lowers the enjoyment to practically nothing.

Malchiel
30-10-2006, 02:53
Yes the monks overheal, but give them channeling, and they should be good to go due to running into groups. Besides monks, the AI isn't really that bad. I've seen an ele start spiking a warrior who just used frenzy, little things like that. The main problem with the AI is interupting is just too good.

I guess from the lower ranked non experienced person's side of it, the heroes can be a good thing. But the people who actually want to play other humans in HA are getting screwed over due too all these hero/hench teams. It's simply not fun anymore. The 6v6 limited creativity, which was bad enough. Now that more than half of HA is one person teams, it just lowers the enjoyment to practically nothing.

There's a reason why I don't go to HA a lot. See how many advertisements for IWAY and ViMWAY there was? At least pre vimway nerf anyways.

There're tons. You can't even play the build you like.

The other problem is dealing with people. I simply don't have the time nor patience to deal with them in my team. If I could help it, I want them to shut up, and play like I tell them to. I can't do that with ppl. Well AIs are stupid but at least they obey my orders to a fault I'd give them that.

Look when I play Pee Vee Pee... I want to f-i-g-h-t another player in another team and NOT the one in my own team. But usually that's what end up happening when you have humans in your own team.

At least if the AI did something stupid it's justifiable since their... well... AI. At the worst I can just blame it all on myself since I control them after all. But when a human player do something stupid, repeatedly to boot... how do you justify something like that? and you end up throwing insult at each other. Not exactly my idea of fun, really.

Bacon
30-10-2006, 02:58
There's a reason why I don't go to HA a lot. See how many advertisements for IWAY and ViMWAY there was? At least pre vimway nerf anyways.

There're tons. You can't even play the build you like.

The other problem is dealing with people. I simply don't have the time nor patience to deal with them in my team. If I could help it, I want them to shut up, and play like I tell them to. I can't do that with ppl. Well AIs are stupid but at least they obey my orders to a fault I'd give them that.

Look when I play Pee Vee Pee... I want to f-i-g-h-t another player in another team and NOT the one in my own team. But usually that's what end up happening when you have humans in your own team.

At least if the AI did something stupid it's justifiable since their... well... AI. At the worst I can just blame it all on myself since I control them after all. But when a human player do something stupid, repeatedly to boot... how do you justify something like that? and you end up throwing insult at each other. Not exactly my idea of fun, really.


I guess that's the main difference between the views of it. The PvE'rs and newer people don't have the guilds and friends lists full of people they can use to put a build together like us more experienced people do. The simplest way to solve this would be to change it back to the old 8v8, and implement a LFG system for it.

nightrunner
30-10-2006, 03:12
HA is supposed to be a high level arena (kind of a joke, now). It's supposed to be about competitive, organized teams that want to win, not "just get 6 players and hit enter mission." There's not much you can do about cookie-cutter builds like ViMway, since they'll always exist, once one gets nerfed another will be discovered. But stuff like henchway can be removed.

Guilds that can't get enough people for HA, or people that don't want to play at that level should go to Team Arena. I realize that TA is also pretty stupid, but dumbing down HA is not the solution to the problem. IMO it would be a lot better if HA went back to 8v8, and TA was revamped to make it fun to play.

Bacon
30-10-2006, 03:32
HA is supposed to be a high level arena (kind of a joke, now). It's supposed to be about competitive, organized teams that want to win, not "just get 6 players and hit enter mission." There's not much you can do about cookie-cutter builds like ViMway, since they'll always exist, once one gets nerfed another will be discovered. But stuff like henchway can be removed.

Guilds that can't get enough people for HA, or people that don't want to play at that level should go to Team Arena. I realize that TA is also pretty stupid, but dumbing down HA is not the solution to the problem. IMO it would be a lot better if HA went back to 8v8, and TA was revamped to make it fun to play.

I would definately vote for you for president.

Too bad that's waaaay too much work for Anet.

slakt
30-10-2006, 03:38
1. Anet wants more players in HA

2. Most GW players are PvE:ers

3. Anet makes HA PvE

gg

Wuzzman
30-10-2006, 04:16
If your a noob Heros are probably your worse enemy. They will ripe you apart before you have a chance to move your nooby brain into focus to even mount a decent counter. If your playing henchway you will probably lose...heros are better then henchiement by 70% due to the ability to have customizable builds. Now if your in a real teams its free fame, simple. The heroes might catch you ever once in a while but you will come out on top 90% of the time.

Heroes are good for pvp. Allows individuals to run builds they want to run and not what some kid who can emote idea of a build. Simply their are plenty of builds I can not get the average pug to play. Why get fustrated with those people and start asking for r3+(this is controdictory to what I said earlier but I have to admit asking for r3+ has made pugging easier when doing 8v8 or 6v6) to even get on my vent, when I can just grab heros/henchies to do the same basic jobs.

Inner Salbat
30-10-2006, 04:26
I was going to make a topic about this myself, after playing HA last night and bumping into heroway every damn map, and in some cases flaw lessing them in less than 57seconds.

Let me cut to the chase, I hate hero's in HA they should never have been allowed period, or in GvG period.

We had a warrior interrupted with a 0 second cast time skill, how the hell can you interrupt a skill with 0 cast time ? I mean seriously, as far as I am concerned if they don't kick those damn hero's out of HA & GvG, then I'm just not going to PvP anymore, and my guild (ANZ Army Corps. [Since Guild Wars Chapter 1 beta]) feels pretty much the same way.

The thing with Hero's / Henchmen is that they don't operate like human people which are prone to make errors and mistake, they gank 1 player and then move on to the next one, it now becomes abundantly obvious why they made HA 6v6 now, if they want more people playing HA this isn't the way to go, frankly I think this was done to satisfy the whining nublings that constantly complained about not getting groups because of rank discrimination, or at least in part maybe.

The only safe place to PvP now is RA, they've broken in my opinion one of the funder mental parts of Guild Wars that made this game fun to play, GvG & HA.

When I turn on HA/GvG I expect to be facing people not some AI, AI is for when I play PvE, not PvP.

If you have the CE of nightfall you can play the making of dvd, and you can spot who is to blame for this, moronic idea.

Wuzzman
30-10-2006, 04:56
I guess that's the main difference between the views of it. The PvE'rs and newer people don't have the guilds and friends lists full of people they can use to put a build together like us more experienced people do. The simplest way to solve this would be to change it back to the old 8v8, and implement a LFG system for it.

While I wish Anet would bring back 8v8 Hero Ascent, it will not solve the "human" problem that HA had for a VERY long time. Infact the human problems that the poster mentioned has existed since....forever almsot. Vimway, Iway, duel smite, what ever, thats not the problem, it is the fact that if you don't have friends who are on at the same time you are you have 1/10 of a chance to actually counter these builds with a pug you made or joined.

The Pve'er and new player problem isn't just "no friends, no guild", its a problem but its not the whole picture. Here is a quick list:

1. They have no friends or guild who is experienced in pvp
2. They have no experience and thus have a very small chance of making friends with people who are experienced in pvp or entering into a guild that does pvp
3. They sometimes have personality problems (rude, unwilling to learn, just plan stupid) which often doesn't rub to well with the many rude, arrogant, and even the kind and nice experienced pvp'ers.
4. They often are stuck playing with other unexperienced and "nooby" players and thus have no way of measuring their own skills. To put it simple if your in a bad team are you the good player or are you the nooby one?

Hero'es I strongly think will help solve that. The main issue for people who don't pvp often is experience. They don't learn anything when their in a average pug in hero ascent. How does the wammo know that the reason why he can't get past the zaishen phase is because he sucks when the ele behind him is spamming flare? The best way for new people to learn is to get pwned over and over again by themselves, its how you get experience. Learn the mechnaics of the game by yourself when confident start adding real players to your group. Eventually you'll become a good player, if your willing to learn that is.

Now I'm a experienced player, been doing hero ascent since febuary. Friends list full of friends, however at most I have 2-4 people online regularly and about 50/50 chance I can get them to play XXXX build if their not already busy. I also have a guild, but unless your an officer your pretty much not holding that much weight. My point? I'm simply pointing out that not everyone can form a group of competent players they know at a snap of a finger. I can either ask for r3+ to get on my vent or reroll to a vim, iway, duel smite, or whatever other fotm build that is popular if I really wanted to hero ascent. Currently asking for r3+ doesn't help the community neither does doing a fotm build because from what I've been reading for the past few months I was contributing to the decline of hero ascent not helping.

Wuzzman
30-10-2006, 05:05
I was going to make a topic about this myself, after playing HA last night and bumping into heroway every damn map, and in some cases flaw lessing them in less than 57seconds.

Let me cut to the chase, I hate hero's in HA they should never have been allowed period, or in GvG period.

We had a warrior interrupted with a 0 second cast time skill, how the hell can you interrupt a skill with 0 cast time ? I mean seriously, as far as I am concerned if they don't kick those damn hero's out of HA & GvG, then I'm just not going to PvP anymore, and my guild (ANZ Army Corps. [Since Guild Wars Chapter 1 beta]) feels pretty much the same way.

The thing with Hero's / Henchmen is that they don't operate like human people which are prone to make errors and mistake, they gank 1 player and then move on to the next one, it now becomes abundantly obvious why they made HA 6v6 now, if they want more people playing HA this isn't the way to go, frankly I think this was done to satisfy the whining nublings that constantly complained about not getting groups because of rank discrimination, or at least in part maybe.

The only safe place to PvP now is RA, they've broken in my opinion one of the funder mental parts of Guild Wars that made this game fun to play, GvG & HA.

When I turn on HA/GvG I expect to be facing people not some AI, AI is for when I play PvE, not PvP.

If you have the CE of nightfall you can play the making of dvd, and you can spot who is to blame for this, moronic idea.

actually this works against the noobs. Noobs can't form a real group with their heroes and ultimately get pwned by better players who know what each skill should do. It is the people who aren't noobs and get ignore anyhow by the "experienced" vimway/iwayers that heroway is ultimately for. The rise of the individual instead of "closed off from the rest of the world" guilds and social circles. A glorious day truely. Now AI should be nerfed if their interupting 0 cast lol. When the dust clears(after a month or so of heroway in HA) real groups(groups with all players) can start being formed, after all the kids leave.

Inner Salbat
30-10-2006, 05:48
actually this works against the noobs. Noobs can't form a real group with their heroes and ultimately get pwned by better players who know what each skill should do. It is the people who aren't noobs and get ignore anyhow by the "experienced" vimway/iwayers that heroway is ultimately for. The rise of the individual instead of "closed off from the rest of the world" guilds and social circles. A glorious day truely. Now AI should be nerfed if their interupting 0 cast lol. When the dust clears(after a month or so of heroway in HA) real groups(groups with all players) can start being formed, after all the kids leave.

yeh 0 cast time, shouldn't be too hard to find, I'll ask my guildy what skill it was he was using, perhaps I should file a bug report on it.

Well, the reason I hadn't made my own topic on the matter yet, it because NF is new and so are Hero's so they (ArenaNet) need time to debug them, and sort there stuff out, so I was sort or waiting for the dust to settle before jumping up and down, but from the out look of the current game, it absolutely sucks.

I mean what are we going to have 4 people roll up to the World championship with just them and there hero's, lol what is arenanet trying to do cut down on flight costs, flying people to the event or something?

Malchiel
30-10-2006, 06:08
The future is here.

Why do you think the army is spending more on robot fighters than developing new planes? :P

Or why do you they're hosting the DARPA grand challenge 132 miles robot race accross the California Desert

Robots are often more efficient than humans and best of all, they don't WHINE like the lots of you here.

:grin:

Ellix Cantero
30-10-2006, 06:23
If your a noob Heros are probably your worse enemy. They will ripe you apart before you have a chance to move your nooby brain into focus to even mount a decent counter. If your playing henchway you will probably lose...heros are better then henchiement by 70% due to the ability to have customizable builds. Now if your in a real teams its free fame, simple. The heroes might catch you ever once in a while but you will come out on top 90% of the time.

Heroes are good for pvp. Allows individuals to run builds they want to run and not what some kid who can emote idea of a build. Simply their are plenty of builds I can not get the average pug to play. Why get fustrated with those people and start asking for r3+(this is controdictory to what I said earlier but I have to admit asking for r3+ has made pugging easier when doing 8v8 or 6v6) to even get on my vent, when I can just grab heros/henchies to do the same basic jobs.


Best post I've seen on the topic thus far. I'm more of a pvp player than pve, but I'm pretty excited about heros and I think it's great they're allowed in HA.

Inner Salbat
30-10-2006, 06:27
The future is here.

Why do you think the army is spending more on robot fighters than developing new planes? :P

Or why do you they're hosting the DARPA grand challenge 132 miles robot race accross the California Desert

Robots are often more efficient than humans and best of all, they don't WHINE like the lots of you here.

:grin:

Reality check, this is Guild Wars not some political agenda at replacing parts of human filled positions in the army.

Phex
31-10-2006, 00:45
Bots don't belong in PVP.

On top of that, any half-decent team with people will dominate heroes.

Chriseth
31-10-2006, 01:04
OMG this arguement is stupid >_<
I roll over henchway endlessly
Thank you henchway and heroway for getting me to r4
And if you got a problem with henchway/vim/iway/b-spike
keep them out of your guild
and get better monks if youre getting ganked on altar maps
......

melandrus elite
31-10-2006, 01:34
The future is here.

Why do you think the army is spending more on robot fighters than developing new planes? :P

Or why do you they're hosting the DARPA grand challenge 132 miles robot race accross the California Desert

Robots are often more efficient than humans and best of all, they don't WHINE like the lots of you here.

:grin:

sure when you start playing a monk and get spammed by "robot" interupts I hope you say "man I love when I lose to a bunch of robotic characters with insane interupts"

P=player v=versus P=player think that over before you say robots are the future.

Inner Salbat
31-10-2006, 01:50
sure when you start playing a monk and get spammed by "robot" interupts I hope you say "man I love when I lose to a bunch of robotic characters with insane interupts"

P=player v=versus P=player think that over before you say robots are the future.

Yes well with Hero's being allowed into GvG/HA there is no true PvP anymore, I noticed they've prevented them from entering alliance battles, I wonder why they stopped them there, where there 'needed' due to the lack of players, but allowed them in a place where there was plenty of player to play HA & GvG, it makes no sense.

Bacon
31-10-2006, 03:54
OMG this arguement is stupid >_<
I roll over henchway endlessly
Thank you henchway and heroway for getting me to r4
And if you got a problem with henchway/vim/iway/b-spike
keep them out of your guild
and get better monks if youre getting ganked on altar maps
......

Congrats! You got r4 from PvE! You should feel great about that, compared to the others who got r4 in PvP.

The problem isn't people are losing to them... the problem is they shouldn't even be in PvP... It's called PvP for a reason.

Wuzzman
31-10-2006, 04:04
Its still player vs player just less players. The AI is being controled by a playing human who is also in battle with you. Your still fighting a human. Except that human didn't have to wait 20+ minutes to form a group or argue with his damage dealers because their not following target.

Inner Salbat
31-10-2006, 04:38
Its still player vs player just less players. The AI is being controled by a playing human who is also in battle with you. Your still fighting a human. Except that human didn't have to wait 20+ minutes to form a group or argue with his damage dealers because their not following target.

Sorry but I don't give a rats about that sort of mentality, PvP should be strictly player v player, not player v henchmen/hero's etc. too all intent and purpose there is no PvP in this game anymore other than Random Arena & Alliance Battles which is a complete waste if you ask me, either way if they want PvP players to stay they going either have to lock hero's out of HA or GvG even both.

Wuzzman
31-10-2006, 04:45
Sorry but I don't give a rats about that sort of mentality, PvP should be strictly player v player, not player v henchmen/hero's etc. too all intent and purpose there is no PvP in this game anymore other than Random Arena & Alliance Battles which is a complete waste if you ask me, either way if they want PvP players to stay they going either have to lock hero's out of HA or GvG even both.

if their is 1 human in the party that controls the other members of the party its player vs player.

Bacon
31-10-2006, 04:46
if their is 1 human in the party that controls the other members of the party its player vs player.

They don't control the other members. They CAN, but they don't too often.

Inner Salbat
31-10-2006, 04:48
if their is 1 human in the party that controls the other members of the party its player vs player.

Nope that's 6v1, not 6v6 which doesn't even count as PvP.

Wuzzman
31-10-2006, 14:23
6v1 is still pvp. If 5 members of the opposing party left before the game started and left 1 player standing what would you do rage quite? No I think you just kill that 1 player.

Victorious
31-10-2006, 16:11
Congrats! You got r4 from PvE! You should feel great about that, compared to the others who got r4 in PvP.


I think what they were saying is that since it's so easy to beat a hero/hench team, they've won so many matches against hero/hench in order to get r4, not that they're running it themselves.

We've been having a lot of people drop against us running a guild group with real players :grin:simply by typing in the local chat channel saying hello. I think people are scared running hero/hench against live players as they figure they simply wont win, so it's faster for them to drop, and do it all over again in hopes of going against another hero/hench team perhaps. Idk, strange things have been happening in HA lately...:wink:

ELT
31-10-2006, 16:20
lol cmon whats the big deal. If you cant beay a guy with only henchs omg your team definatly suck. People can have fun on their own and how they like. If you get frustrated by getting killed by heroes what can we do...

Maybe you can open your eyes anmd try to figure a new build. Theres other builds that can own others other than e/a, vim, and other gimmick build wich Ill have fun killing with my friends

gj ANETand gj pulling away those "godlike players" who cry for getting own by heroes and henchies and lol yeah Ive won a few matches with only 2 human players agaist 6 real mans and even alone. Of course we wont get as far as real good 6 man team.

Bacon
31-10-2006, 22:37
lol cmon whats the big deal. If you cant beay a guy with only henchs omg your team definatly suck. People can have fun on their own and how they like. If you get frustrated by getting killed by heroes what can we do...

Maybe you can open your eyes anmd try to figure a new build. Theres other builds that can own others other than e/a, vim, and other gimmick build wich Ill have fun killing with my friends

gj ANETand gj pulling away those "godlike players" who cry for getting own by heroes and henchies and lol yeah Ive won a few matches with only 2 human players agaist 6 real mans and even alone. Of course we wont get as far as real good 6 man team.

ONCE AGAIN. The problem isn't people can't beat the teams. Anyone can beat a heroway team if they're half decent.

The problem is people don't want to practically PvE in a PvP arena. Farming bots is not my idea of PvP. Understand yet?


I think what they were saying is that since it's so easy to beat a hero/hench team, they've won so many matches against hero/hench in order to get r4, not that they're running it themselves.

We've been having a lot of people drop against us running a guild group with real players simply by typing in the local chat channel saying hello. I think people are scared running hero/hench against live players as they figure they simply wont win, so it's faster for them to drop, and do it all over again in hopes of going against another hero/hench team perhaps. Idk, strange things have been happening in HA lately...

Really. Last time I was in HA was monking for a friends guild group. First Heroway we came across, the guy flamed us for killing him too quick. Then he started pming our mesmer saying things that probably shouldn't be posted here. Guess you've just been lucky.

ELT
01-11-2006, 01:20
Some people will always complain on what ever happens. Some will like it some wont. I understand it piss a lot of you killing henchies but oh well you will get 1 fame out of it. The further you go the less you will fight those henchies. Like some said those who are just experiencing and get crushed every time will just abandon sooner or later.

Many people never went to HA because they know it sucks to wait for hours to get a decent group. If you were not ranked omg well forget it... But now every1 get's their chance. Who knows some new good builds might even get out from this new experiment possibility.

Whats the fun in playing in a predefined build with r3+ or rx "elites" ? Many people dont like it and I'm one of them. I get much more satisfaction crushing people with my own stuff. And yes im a total HA noob but not an arena noob ;) Just imagine how much I was laughing when I won on my first game there with my first hero setup. I apreciate it very much and many people too.

Great move ANET now every1 can experiment their way in the HA.

Wuzzman
01-11-2006, 02:25
Some people will always complain on what ever happens. Some will like it some wont. I understand it piss a lot of you killing henchies but oh well you will get 1 fame out of it. The further you go the less you will fight those henchies. Like some said those who are just experiencing and get crushed every time will just abandon sooner or later.

Many people never went to HA because they know it sucks to wait for hours to get a decent group. If you were not ranked omg well forget it... But now every1 get's their chance. Who knows some new good builds might even get out from this new experiment possibility.

Whats the fun in playing in a predefined build with r3+ or rx "elites" ? Many people dont like it and I'm one of them. I get much more satisfaction crushing people with my own stuff. And yes im a total HA noob but not an arena noob ;) Just imagine how much I was laughing when I won on my first game there with my first hero setup. I apreciate it very much and many people too.

Great move ANET now every1 can experiment their way in the HA.

This is means more to Anet the 12-20 complainers threatening to rage quite. The idiots will keep losing and quite. The people who were ignored by the r3+ "elite" will be able to finally play the game their way.

Inner Salbat
01-11-2006, 02:45
Some people will always complain on what ever happens. Some will like it some wont. I understand it piss a lot of you killing henchies but oh well you will get 1 fame out of it. The further you go the less you will fight those henchies. Like some said those who are just experiencing and get crushed every time will just abandon sooner or later.

Many people never went to HA because they know it sucks to wait for hours to get a decent group. If you were not ranked omg well forget it... But now every1 get's their chance. Who knows some new good builds might even get out from this new experiment possibility.

Whats the fun in playing in a predefined build with r3+ or rx "elites" ? Many people dont like it and I'm one of them. I get much more satisfaction crushing people with my own stuff. And yes im a total HA noob but not an arena noob ;) Just imagine how much I was laughing when I won on my first game there with my first hero setup. I apreciate it very much and many people too.

Great move ANET now every1 can experiment their way in the HA.

That's a fallacy if ever I heard one, yes sure getting into groups was quite a challenge, but adding henchmen to replace them so that unranked player or even ranked player can get a group, is the wrong way to go.

They basically chickened out of the proper way to do it, and that was to have a grouping interface that made it easier to group with people, instead setting there sights at taking the lazy way out, and just allowed henchmen in HA/GvG.

The problem is it's not just the first few maps you encounter them, I've personally constantly encountered them right up to the hall, and seen many of these lamers win halls with it, and hold it constantly, this is not due to "skill" of a team, but the skill on an AI to repeatedly do the same thing over and over without failure, which is not PvP but PvE.

The end result is that many hardcore pvp player will just stop playing in either place, be it GvG or HA and leave the game, because there is no PvP which is what has kept them in the game for the past 2 years, and all you have anywhere in any kind of competitive arena is AI, which is not PvP and never will be.

Victorious
01-11-2006, 07:30
I've stated earlier how I feel towards heros in HA, but oddly enough, and I feel I'm certainly late in noting this, hero teams arent allowed in TA. Why HA, but not TA? Honestly doesnt seem right. Strange, no?

nightrunner
01-11-2006, 09:05
6v1 is still pvp. If 5 members of the opposing party left before the game started and left 1 player standing what would you do rage quite? No I think you just kill that 1 player.

Yeah. What if that happened every other game? It would be kind of funny at first, but after a while you'd get bored. Same thing with henchway. It's fun to slaughter the first couple groups, but when all you run into is henchway it gets stupid.

HA was supposed to be an upper tier arena. It shouldn't be catering to people who can't get a group of 6 people together, or complete newcomers. That's what TA and RA is for.

And people need to realize that it's not all about the AI being too good or too bad. It's about the AI itself. We want to play against real people, not bots, regardless of whether or not the bots provide a challenge or not.

Inner Salbat
01-11-2006, 09:19
Yeah. What if that happened every other game? It would be kind of funny at first, but after a while you'd get bored. Same thing with henchway. It's fun to slaughter the first couple groups, but when all you run into is henchway it gets stupid.

HA was supposed to be an upper tier arena. It shouldn't be catering to people who can't get a group of 6 people together, or complete newcomers. That's what TA and RA is for.

And people need to realize that it's not all about the AI being too good or too bad. It's about the AI itself. We want to play against real people, not bots, regardless of whether or not the bots provide a challenge or not.

QFT

1234567890

Bacon
01-11-2006, 14:16
Yeah. What if that happened every other game? It would be kind of funny at first, but after a while you'd get bored. Same thing with henchway. It's fun to slaughter the first couple groups, but when all you run into is henchway it gets stupid.

HA was supposed to be an upper tier arena. It shouldn't be catering to people who can't get a group of 6 people together, or complete newcomers. That's what TA and RA is for.

And people need to realize that it's not all about the AI being too good or too bad. It's about the AI itself. We want to play against real people, not bots, regardless of whether or not the bots provide a challenge or not.

QFMFT

Yes, these lame bot teams are able to hold halls. I don't think that one person is doing that well. Which means its the AI and their 0 reaction time.

The Avatar
01-11-2006, 20:31
I've stated earlier how I feel towards heros in HA, but oddly enough, and I feel I'm certainly late in noting this, hero teams arent allowed in TA. Why HA, but not TA? Honestly doesnt seem right. Strange, no?

Well to answer ur question; this is "Hall of Heroes" or "Heroes Ascent" afterall, so obviously this is the only type of arena u can use heroes. Other types of pvp u either find ppl to play with or use the dumb henchmen. (at least they're still good in pve)

Bacon
01-11-2006, 21:52
Well to answer ur question; this is "Hall of Heroes" or "Heroes Ascent" afterall, so obviously this is the only type of arena u can use heroes. Other types of pvp u either find ppl to play with or use the dumb henchmen. (at least they're still good in pve)

Its a good thing they intended the Hero part to refer to the bot Heroes. Oh sorry, they didn't.

ZiegDivine
01-11-2006, 22:43
Some people will always complain on what ever happens. Some will like it some wont. I understand it piss a lot of you killing henchies but oh well you will get 1 fame out of it. The further you go the less you will fight those henchies. Like some said those who are just experiencing and get crushed every time will just abandon sooner or later.

Have you even been to HA? Heroway is all the way up to HoH. I played HA this morning, and then went to cap a couple of skills. You know what the difference was? None.

werd
02-11-2006, 02:01
My stance on this is that there is room for Heroes in HA. I stand by this and I always will.

The percentage of people that are hard core HA players are only but a tiny group in the whole entire population. Anet knows this and it wants to make it more attractive to a wider audience. That is to be applauded.

My point is times are changing. Either you adapt, or you become part of the past.

So I call on those who agree with this revoutionary change, and voice your support.

basically you support taking away any chance of HA redeeming itself as a serious competitive arena. ANet has sacrificed that in exchange to making it newbie friendly. catering to the lower tier of players = broken competitive game model.

there is also no point to the hero vs hero arena in future once people have tried it out, since it's essentially what's happening in HA, except without fame and possible chest reward.

Joseph Fourier
02-11-2006, 02:18
...
They basically chickened out of the proper way to do it, and that was to have a grouping interface that made it easier to group with people, instead setting there sights at taking the lazy way out, and just allowed henchmen in HA/GvG.
...

That pretty much ends all arguments. A LFG interface is sooo long overdue that its ridiculous. With such an interface, Heroway will be less common (although not gone, by any means), and people will be able to play far more quickly. More playing = less complaining. Fewer Heroes = less complaining. Perhaps Anet should peek over at Blizzard's LFG interface they are introducing for WoW in its first expansion.

Another Fess
02-11-2006, 09:09
Originally posted by Malchiel. Hey you know what, these bots are better than the mindless zombies that made up the Iway and Vimway groups. Much better. At least you get to run your own builds rather than given these 3 choices

1) Create your own guild and boss everybody around (yea right)
2) Wait forever for the right PuG
3) Join the Iway group.

If you can't win vs. bots you suck. Their AI is pretty horrible, they like to run around like headless chicken.
Exactly. There is no team for ppl who dont want Way's or at last its too long to wait for it.
And bots are stupid, even if its Hero and slightly controlled by the people.

Parker Bsb
02-11-2006, 13:55
I'm hearing 2 arguments:
1) They are AI and therefore U sukzorz if U kant beet LOLZ n00b!

2) When I PvP I want to face humans not AI.

I really have NO clue how the 1st camp can even argue their point because MOST of the posts aren't saying the hench/hero's are imba - just that it's LAME to vs them every time.

Buddah
02-11-2006, 18:33
I made this suggestion in the past, once again I I'll say it.

Limit teams to 2 NPC max on a team. If a team has a 2 NPC and have a drop they don't get a replacement. If a team of 6 players and one drops, next fight they get a henchie.

Gaile
03-11-2006, 00:47
This is a pretty complicated issue. I'm not even going into the request to change from 8v8 to 6v6, or from 6v6 back to 8v8, because I'm pretty sure that 6v6 is here to stay. (And polls support that change, at nearly 80% in favour, even after the end of the double rewards that some people mistakenly believed had an influence on the outcome of the votes.)

The inclusion of Heroes in HA is another topic altogether, and it has opened up a lot of interesting discussion. We definitely are listening to your thoughts. The difficulty is this: For everyone who says "I hate losing to AI," there's someone who says "I love having Heroes and being able to play PvP with a chance of winning." For everyone who says "The AI is too smart, and causes people to choose AI over real players," there is someone else saying "I'm playing HA for the first time in months because it's easy to form a party now and I don't get dissed for not having XX Rank." Can you see the difficulties here? How do you address so many opinions when many of them directly conflict with others?

The Design Team will continue to look at Heroes' Ascent. Ultimately they may decide to leave it as is, or perhaps they will make some sort of change to party formation. It's far too early to say. There are a lot of constructive and helpful suggestions and comments on all sides, and we appreciate a level of discussion that includes well-expressed input, logical presentation of opinion, even a few facts and figures if you care to give them. Some players are frustrated by this matter, but when you post angrily, you hurt your position, as the angrier posts seldom contain the points that give an argument any merit. I'm not saying "Be nicey-nice!" I'm simply suggesting that you should give us reasons for how you feel, for we are more than willing to accept feedback or comments and truly want to consider all your thoughts on this subject.

DreamWind
03-11-2006, 01:38
I still think 6v6 is more fun than 8v8. But thats besides the point.

I actually enjoy heroes in HA, but not the rampant extent that they are now. Like, fighting the occassional hero every once and a while is fine, but not 3 heroes every battle.

If it were up to me I would make it so 1 human can't join alone with a bunch of heroes and henchies. Make it so if you have heroes on your team you can't have henchies and make it a 2 human minimum per team or something like that. Don't obliterate the whole thing but don't leave it as is would be my opinion.

Djinn Effer
03-11-2006, 02:16
This is a pretty complicated issue. I'm not even going into the request to change from 8v8 to 6v6, or from 6v6 back to 8v8, because I'm pretty sure that 6v6 is here to stay. (And polls support that change, at nearly 80% in favour, even after the end of the double rewards that some people mistakenly believed had an influence on the outcome of the votes.)

The inclusion of Heroes in HA is another topic altogether, and it has opened up a lot of interesting discussion. We definitely are listening to your thoughts. The difficulty is this: For everyone who says "I hate losing to AI," there's someone who says "I love having Heroes and being able to play PvP with a chance of winning." For everyone who says "The AI is too smart, and causes people to choose AI over real players," there is someone else saying "I'm playing HA for the first time in months because it's easy to form a party now and I don't get dissed for not having XX Rank." Can you see the difficulties here? How do you address so many opinions when many of them directly conflict with others?

The Design Team will continue to look at Heroes' Ascent. Ultimately they may decide to leave it as is, or perhaps they will make some sort of change to party formation. It's far too early to say. There are a lot of constructive and helpful suggestions and comments on all sides, and we appreciate a level of discussion that includes well-expressed input, logical presentation of opinion, even a few facts and figures if you care to give them. Some players are frustrated by this matter, but when you post angrily, you hurt your position, as the angrier posts seldom contain the points that give an argument any merit. I'm not saying "Be nicey-nice!" I'm simply suggesting that you should give us reasons for how you feel, for we are more than willing to accept feedback or comments and truly want to consider all your thoughts on this subject.

Who voted on this so called poll? I sure as hell didn't.

P v P = Player verses Player

AI does not count as players, that is the same lines as PvE: So, effectively HA is no longer a PvP area, but a mixed PvE vs PvP area. I'll leave you with a quote: "He who breaks something to figure out how it works has left the path of wisdom." Use that to interpret the changes to HA.

Inner Salbat
03-11-2006, 02:16
I still think 6v6 is more fun than 8v8. But thats besides the point.

I actually enjoy heroes in HA, but not the rampant extent that they are now. Like, fighting the occassional hero every once and a while is fine, but not 3 heroes every battle.

If it were up to me I would make it so 1 human can't join alone with a bunch of heroes and henchies. Make it so if you have heroes on your team you can't have henchies and make it a 2 human minimum per team or something like that. Don't obliterate the whole thing but don't leave it as is would be my opinion.

not a bad idea, but I'd limit it too 1 hero per person in the group, if I had to put up with hero's at all in HA, personally I'd rather have none.

There are too few large scale PvP only arenas before this change, now where do we go for out exclusive PvP only ? TA/AB & RA and that is it, which more or less ruins large scale PvP.

Malchiel
03-11-2006, 02:33
This is a pretty complicated issue. I'm not even going into the request to change from 8v8 to 6v6, or from 6v6 back to 8v8, because I'm pretty sure that 6v6 is here to stay. (And polls support that change, at nearly 80% in favour, even after the end of the double rewards that some people mistakenly believed had an influence on the outcome of the votes.)

The inclusion of Heroes in HA is another topic altogether, and it has opened up a lot of interesting discussion. We definitely are listening to your thoughts. The difficulty is this: For everyone who says "I hate losing to AI," there's someone who says "I love having Heroes and being able to play PvP with a chance of winning." For everyone who says "The AI is too smart, and causes people to choose AI over real players," there is someone else saying "I'm playing HA for the first time in months because it's easy to form a party now and I don't get dissed for not having XX Rank." Can you see the difficulties here? How do you address so many opinions when many of them directly conflict with others?

The Design Team will continue to look at Heroes' Ascent. Ultimately they may decide to leave it as is, or perhaps they will make some sort of change to party formation. It's far too early to say. There are a lot of constructive and helpful suggestions and comments on all sides, and we appreciate a level of discussion that includes well-expressed input, logical presentation of opinion, even a few facts and figures if you care to give them. Some players are frustrated by this matter, but when you post angrily, you hurt your position, as the angrier posts seldom contain the points that give an argument any merit. I'm not saying "Be nicey-nice!" I'm simply suggesting that you should give us reasons for how you feel, for we are more than willing to accept feedback or comments and truly want to consider all your thoughts on this subject.

I say leave heroes alone. I'm finally able to go to HA without running in the noob-way teams.

Besides there's a problem that there's not enough individuality. It's all for the group. While you say it might be good, the question becomes, when do you get to design and run your own builds? Often time never. You join a party and follow the leaders with very little opportunity to be creative and try out new stuff.

The problem of independence is further made worse because 8 skills is completely insufficient and hence the tremendous dependency on others. But often times there's no other. May be because guild isn't supportive of PvP play, or because friend lists is diminishing, or time differences. A number of reasons. Basically you can't always count on others. So what do you do then, when you need others, and yet you can't play? Sulk? Heroes provide a solid alternative.

Still it is nice to play with humans when possible. There is the social interaction part and other benefits certainly. Yet just like in life you don't want your life to be determined by your friends. You want some sort of independence and autonomy. Same thing here, being forced what to run, what to do, how to do it is NOT fun.

Bottom line is: I want to play with others, but I want to preserve some form of independence, freedom and autonomy.

So I'd suggest:

1) Make it such that a party is 2 teams of 4 ala. Battle Alliance. Your team should be independent. They can be heroes or they can be players, but they should be independent. This has the benefit of being much easier to form plus, there's at least 2 humans to a party. So there's social interaction.

2) Make grouping a LOT easier. At the moment it's so hard, it's not even worth it. If grouping were easy and fast, people are more keen to experiment, run fun builds, because hey, they lost only a precious 1 minute if they lose anyways as opposed to the current 1-2 hours that it takes to form a party. People will party with others if the cost isn't too steep. Afterall humans are smarter than henchies... hopefully...

Djinn Effer
03-11-2006, 02:39
Yeah, Malchiel I guess playing IWAY would limit what build you can run. People who make groups are the ones who get to be creative with what the people run. If you just join the groups you can't really complain. Thats how it used to work: Player A makes build. Player A organizes a group of people. Players B-H choose roles in Player A's build and play it. If you wanted to run your own creative build you in turn would need to be Player A, not B-H. You don't have to pick up pugs to do it, the higher end PvPers got people from their friends list that were willing to run experimental builds because they trusted their friends that they played with because they know that they arn't retarded, like the bulk of pick ups you'd find in HA.

Hugely unlike now, where theres 1, 2,.. maybe 3 districts. Whats it matter? You can just go in with AI and fight players.

Heres an idea: Why not PvE?!

Is it because you want a fame emote?

So is this ANet's answer to PvErs complaining to not be able to get rank? Make HA PvE??

Ah whatever, I'm not happy -.-.

slakt
03-11-2006, 03:15
This is a pretty complicated issue. I'm not even going into the request to change from 8v8 to 6v6, or from 6v6 back to 8v8, because I'm pretty sure that 6v6 is here to stay. (And polls support that change, at nearly 80% in favour, even after the end of the double rewards that some people mistakenly believed had an influence on the outcome of the votes.)

The inclusion of Heroes in HA is another topic altogether, and it has opened up a lot of interesting discussion. We definitely are listening to your thoughts. The difficulty is this: For everyone who says "I hate losing to AI," there's someone who says "I love having Heroes and being able to play PvP with a chance of winning." For everyone who says "The AI is too smart, and causes people to choose AI over real players," there is someone else saying "I'm playing HA for the first time in months because it's easy to form a party now and I don't get dissed for not having XX Rank." Can you see the difficulties here? How do you address so many opinions when many of them directly conflict with others?

The Design Team will continue to look at Heroes' Ascent. Ultimately they may decide to leave it as is, or perhaps they will make some sort of change to party formation. It's far too early to say. There are a lot of constructive and helpful suggestions and comments on all sides, and we appreciate a level of discussion that includes well-expressed input, logical presentation of opinion, even a few facts and figures if you care to give them. Some players are frustrated by this matter, but when you post angrily, you hurt your position, as the angrier posts seldom contain the points that give an argument any merit. I'm not saying "Be nicey-nice!" I'm simply suggesting that you should give us reasons for how you feel, for we are more than willing to accept feedback or comments and truly want to consider all your thoughts on this subject.

The polls were (so I've heard) held on certain fan forums, and those forums are all extremely dominated by PvE players - people who don't play HA, don't really care and figure that any change to the tournament might make it more fun to them. If you would hold a poll among actual HA players, the results would be quite different.

Anyway, here's how I see it: Anet wants to make HA more newbie friendly, so they lower the level of competition (by changing it to 6vs6). And that's pretty much it. HA will never be a high level PvP area again, since Anet wants it to be newbie friendly. Because you can't have both, you can't have a high level of competiton and a newbie friendly climate. The addition of heroes makes it even friendlier for new players, since you no longer have to make teams. HA is now PvE - the most newbie friendly game type of them all - and the level of competition is at an all time low. People are farming deers like they farm greens.

It's Anet's choice really; who are going to be pleased, the HA players or the HA "newbies"? There are more HA newbies than HA players in Guild Wars, and since the game runs on money it's not hard to see how Anet made their decision. When looking only at the 6vs6 change though, I don't think it's going to make HA much newbie friendlier in the long run. Sure, it will make PuG:ing a bit easier, but the problems that scare away new players; rank discrimination, FotM's, elitism etc, will still exist no matter how many players there are in each party. So I don't think the newbie climate is going to improve much because of this change. All that will come of the 6vs6 change in the long run is a crippled gameplay with less variation and a lower level of competition, which will cause many HA players to loose interest (most already have). And if the 6vs6 change wasn't enough, the heroes are surely the final blow to the HA head - the Lightning Orb to the 30 hp monk, if you will.

Back in the day you saw top guilds fighting to win the Hall of Heroes, now you see mobs bashing each other in just another PvE area. Newbie friendly and popular among PvE:ers (hence the poll results on PvE forums), yes, but far from the great PvP tournament it once was. My suggestion for a resurrected Heroes' Ascent would be (though it won't happen) a change back to 8vs8, a limitation/ban of heroes and an introduction of a team forming system. But I don't see that happening, so R.I.P Heroes' Ascent. When will killed heroes' start to drop greens?

nightrunner
03-11-2006, 07:30
If you read everybody's responses, you'll notice that there are basically two arguments: "HA is worse because less players means more rock-paper-scissorsish gameplay, and heroes are boring to play against" and "HA is better because new players can play, and it's easier to form groups."

Both are pretty valid points. However, there are a lot of better ways to appease the second argument (improve TA for newcomers, better LFG system), than to solve it by changing the whole arena around.

The HA system should be designed around the actual game, not around team formation. Don't wreck the gameplay to make it easier to create a group.

I am Bale
03-11-2006, 10:00
HA is much more exciting now. Sure, you're playing against bots, buts "bots" isn't a build, its the skills they use that make the build. With Heroes, people can try out new and interesting builds that they wouldn't be able to do with pugs ("Wtf? 3 mesmers? omg this build sux").

HA used to be Stale, where you only fought against Iway, Starburst, Vimway and FoTM builds, now you can viabley fight against almost any build.

In fact, Increasing the Hero limit to 5 per team would be even better.

shadow machine
03-11-2006, 10:11
what exactly was the point of making a hero battles city on the map if they are allowed in HA? Heroes are the worst thing that has happened to this game and will be its downfall.

Domina Spellbinder
03-11-2006, 11:42
I know much better games I play when I like to go Player vs Ai in a PvP settings. The Player versus Player of guild wars used to be unique. With the bot teams all using the same combo of overpowered skills and same strategy this really turns me off.

Still like the PvE experience, I just won't be buying any future pvp-focussed expansion, the badly designed AB system in Factions and current pvp changes in mind.

GhostOf
03-11-2006, 12:48
The polls were (so I've heard) held on certain fan forums, and those forums are all extremely dominated by PvE players - people who don't play HA, don't really care and figure that any change to the tournament might make it more fun to them. If you would hold a poll among actual HA players, the results would be quite different.

With no disrespect to anyone, I find it hillarious that someone posting on GWO is accusing another forum of being "dominated by PvE players" - especially when the forum in question is in fact TGH, arguably the most PvP oriented public Guild Wars forum.



The inclusion of Heroes in HA is another topic altogether, and it has opened up a lot of interesting discussion. We definitely are listening to your thoughts. The difficulty is this: For everyone who says "I hate losing to AI," there's someone who says "I love having Heroes and being able to play PvP with a chance of winning." For everyone who says "The AI is too smart, and causes people to choose AI over real players," there is someone else saying "I'm playing HA for the first time in months because it's easy to form a party now and I don't get dissed for not having XX Rank." Can you see the difficulties here? How do you address so many opinions when many of them directly conflict with others?

I don't mean to come accross as rude, but you are completely missing the point. This has absolutely nothing to do with something as shallow as people being annoyed about losing to Hero way, this is Heroes Ascent being turned into a complete joke. It is no longer PvP. It's like paying to have your kid go to a private school, then finding out they spend all day sticking crayons up their nose. Heroes Ascent is no longer PvP - it honestly boggles my mind how you can't see that this is a huge, huge problem.

There is a vast community of Heroes Ascent players, guilds that have been doing it together for a long time. Recently they had the 6 vs 6 change pushed on them, which apparently was largely decided upon by a poll placed on what is largely a GvG oriented forum. They moaned about it rightfully, you suddenly changed up their favorite part of the game in a big way, and a lot of them didn't like it. But hey, life goes on and they either left or learnt to adapt and live with it. A few weeks later and bam, suddenly their favorite form of PvP is now infested with NPCs.

If you are trying to benefit the very low end of players by giving them a way to get groups then you are going about it entirely the wrong way. The problem is rank elitism, a system that is entirely broken and meaningless is stopping players from getting groups. Isn't it about time you looked at doing SOMETHING for the higher end players in HA? If people want to run teams of Heroes against other teams of Heroes is that not exactly what HvH is for?

I stopped playing HA a while ago, long before any of the recent changes. Even back then it was a largely neglected joke. Whilst I am now solely a GvG player and am very gratefull for improvements to that side of the game I simply do not see the logic behind letting Heroes Ascent slip as much as it has done. It makes no sense? It used to be on a parallel with GvG as a form of PvP, but is now like the retarded cousin.

In the past I would have said major changes such as replacing rank were a bad idea, due to annoying the older community of HA. Quite honestly I don't believe there is enough of that left now for it to really matter, there is certainly not much you could change to make HA any worse than it is now.

There are certainly so many ways to improve it that I simply don't know where to start. Taking the Ghostly Hero out of HoH, removing the 'claim resource' mechanic, make capping instant, make capping flag based with flags spawning at your start point to be planted on the alter, only awarding fame for wins in HoH its self, removing Broken Towers, a HA 'record keeper'... These are but a few examples of suggestions from the community.

If something is not done about HA soon then I think it will honestly get to the point where it is just glorified HvH battles, and will become even more meaningless than it has been in the past. It frustrates me, because HA has so much potential that looks like it will never get to show.

grimwold
03-11-2006, 15:54
I couldnt care less about the bots being in ha, but it REALLY needs to go back to 8v8.

The decision to change to 6v6 was taken from the opinions of those that dont care and have no interest in it anyway. Why dont you actually drop into the HA districs and ask how the people who actually play feel about it ? SO many people from my friends list have dissapeared.

I bet your actually asking in lions arch how the community feels about HA, where the odd person who occassionally runs heroway goes "yay i can play ha, big thumbs up from me !!".

The high ranked people have there high ranks because they actually enjoy it and spend a lot of time there, why dont you listen to them instead of the pve and gvg crowds ?

GhostOf
03-11-2006, 16:31
I couldnt care less about the bots being in ha, but it REALLY needs to go back to 8v8.

You don't care enough about HA to see why "bots" are destroying it, but you still rant about the 6 vs 6 change? Wierd..

Aire
03-11-2006, 16:55
The polls were (so I've heard) held on certain fan forums, and those forums are all extremely dominated by PvE players - people who don't play HA, don't really care and figure that any change to the tournament might make it more fun to them. If you would hold a poll among actual HA players, the results would be quite different.


Yes..... because TGH is a total PvE forum.... oh, wait! its the ONLY PvP forum - and they were overwhelmingly in favour of 6v6 (something like 8% wanted 8v8, and the rest were either indifferent or wanted 6v6)

opuis
03-11-2006, 17:32
This is a pretty complicated issue. I'm not even going into the request to change from 8v8 to 6v6, or from 6v6 back to 8v8, because I'm pretty sure that 6v6 is here to stay. (And polls support that change, at nearly 80% in favour, even after the end of the double rewards that some people mistakenly believed had an influence on the outcome of the votes.)

Sure, people who dont play in Heroes Ascent are going to be in favor of 6 vs. 6. They believe this makes it easier for them to pop into HA and get a group. This may be true, but the fact is the same issues with PuG'ing are always going to remain. Group A forms - Group a beats Zaishen - Group A loses to Group B in UW and disbands. Player X is alone again looking for group.

What this majority doesnt understand is HA is really not the place to PUG if one wants to have success. There is no problem in HA for people finding groups. The problem lies in the players themselves. This is supposed to be highest level of PvP next to GvG - Sure, with rank, why wouldnt you take a ranked player over a non-ranked player. This means at minimum they have won matches in HA and have played at least some of the maps.

People complaining about LFG appear to want the Fame Emote only and could care less about expanding the quality of the arena. Heroes Ascent to people that play HA is not about a fame emote, it's about fast-paced PvP.



The inclusion of Heroes in HA is another topic altogether, and it has opened up a lot of interesting discussion. We definitely are listening to your thoughts. The difficulty is this: For everyone who says "I hate losing to AI," there's someone who says "I love having Heroes and being able to play PvP with a chance of winning." For everyone who says "The AI is too smart, and causes people to choose AI over real players," there is someone else saying "I'm playing HA for the first time in months because it's easy to form a party now and I don't get dissed for not having XX Rank." Can you see the difficulties here? How do you address so many opinions when many of them directly conflict with others?

I dont believe the issue is people losing to AI, it's playing against AI - Not one match Gaile, but EVERY match. It's seriously this bad. In the past couple days, I've played against 1 maybe 2 People teams each run.

Sure, with Heroes, anybody can pop into HA and grab two hench and "solo" HA. I was under the impression that the Dev's didnt like people Soloing high level PvE areas like FoW and UW - So why can people solo HA now? I don't see people getting "dissed" for not having XX rank, I see people forming parties around their current rank. Why wouldnt higher ranked players want to pick up other high ranked players? At minimum this means they have working knowledge of HA.

While HA is supposed to be the "casual" high level PvP arena, it's not supposed to be so casual to where 1 person can press a button and enter - Like RA. Heck, RA and TA are now more pure PvP environments than the supposed high level arena. Acolyte Jin cant come into RA and TA - Why HA?

On the subject of losing to AI.....So, let's say I lose to Heroes. Let's say they have a Heroe interupter - Did that persons interupting skill actually beat me or did an algorithm beat me? I doubt 1 persons target calling qualifies as skill. With Searing Flames (which is extremely overpowered at the moment), it's easy to load up on Zhed, Souske or w/e, Tahlkora, Mage HEnch, and Healer hench and do so much AoE it's impossible for monks to heal through.



The Design Team will continue to look at Heroes' Ascent. Ultimately they may decide to leave it as is, or perhaps they will make some sort of change to party formation. It's far too early to say.

Ive seen you quoted saying something similar to "More people are playing HA now". Pop into HA during American prime-time and look at the amount of Districts - in AD and ID for that matter. There is a significant decrease in districts since the invocation of 6v6 and now worse, Heroes.

One could argue that means there are more people actually in the arena at that moment, but the amount of skips Ive experienced negates that theory.

I wish I could provide stats and such - Unfortunately I cannot. Im only going by what Ive observed. I'd be willing to bet any HA regular will tell you there is a significant decrease in HUMAN teams. 1 person does not qualify as a "team" in my eyes.

Bacon
03-11-2006, 21:23
This is a pretty complicated issue. I'm not even going into the request to change from 8v8 to 6v6, or from 6v6 back to 8v8, because I'm pretty sure that 6v6 is here to stay. (And polls support that change, at nearly 80% in favour, even after the end of the double rewards that some people mistakenly believed had an influence on the outcome of the votes.)

The inclusion of Heroes in HA is another topic altogether, and it has opened up a lot of interesting discussion. We definitely are listening to your thoughts. The difficulty is this: For everyone who says "I hate losing to AI," there's someone who says "I love having Heroes and being able to play PvP with a chance of winning." For everyone who says "The AI is too smart, and causes people to choose AI over real players," there is someone else saying "I'm playing HA for the first time in months because it's easy to form a party now and I don't get dissed for not having XX Rank." Can you see the difficulties here? How do you address so many opinions when many of them directly conflict with others?

The Design Team will continue to look at Heroes' Ascent. Ultimately they may decide to leave it as is, or perhaps they will make some sort of change to party formation. It's far too early to say. There are a lot of constructive and helpful suggestions and comments on all sides, and we appreciate a level of discussion that includes well-expressed input, logical presentation of opinion, even a few facts and figures if you care to give them. Some players are frustrated by this matter, but when you post angrily, you hurt your position, as the angrier posts seldom contain the points that give an argument any merit. I'm not saying "Be nicey-nice!" I'm simply suggesting that you should give us reasons for how you feel, for we are more than willing to accept feedback or comments and truly want to consider all your thoughts on this subject.

Hence why I have 0 respect for Anet.

Those polls are worthless. How can you poll fan sites about a PvP issue which are mostly populated by PvE'ers? That makes as much sense as me polling 8 year olds who they want to win in the elections.

You say there's people happy about using Heroes in PvP. Then what was the point of the Hero arena? Just to be there and never use? HA practically is a Hero arena, with the high ranks rolling over them.

The problem isn't the AI is too smart (except interupts, which you guys NEED to look at..). The problem is we don't like repeatedly rolling over 1 person teams with Heroes and Hench. Facing Hero teams all the way to halls, and usually us vs one real team vs heroes, is just retarded. Winning halls means nothing if you're farming bots over and over.

Why can't you guys simply make a LFG interface? Is it really that hard? WoW's done it, why can't you?

Edit: Didn't see ZiegDivine's post. I second every single thing he said. Too bad we probably won't get another reply from Gaile for another week or so.

grimwold
03-11-2006, 22:10
Ghost of, i think you may need to read my post again. I didnt say that i didnt care about ha, in fact i care about it greatly as i have played there for a year and a half.
I feel that the bigger issue is getting it changed back to 8v8 rather than worry about the silly bot teams (i view them in the same way as the old iway - easy fame for the most part). But sure, if they remove the bots that would be good too, but making it 8v8 again is more important imo.
And i was hardly "ranting".

MasterNightfall
03-11-2006, 23:07
Explain to me please, please, please, for the love of god, or whatever the deity that you worship is, how on earth do BOTS fit into a PLAYER VS. ****ING PLAYER arena? They don't. It has nothing to do with unfairness, nothing to do with h4x-like interrupts of the bots, it has the do with the fact that HA is now nothing more than a PV ****ING E area.

P.S. don't run heroway, kthnxbye.

Can you remind me how standing around LFG for 2 hours fits into a fun PLAYER VS PLAYER arena?



Those polls are worthless. How can you poll fan sites about a PvP issue which are mostly populated by PvE'ers? That makes as much sense as me polling 8 year olds who they want to win in the elections.

I guess next time they should only poll the r12+ players.



You say there's people happy about using Heroes in PvP. Then what was the point of the Hero arena? Just to be there and never use? HA practically is a Hero arena, with the high ranks rolling over them.

Because they want to play a HA-ish game mode in HA maybe? Because they want to earn some fame?



The problem isn't the AI is too smart (except interupts, which you guys NEED to look at..). The problem is we don't like repeatedly rolling over 1 person teams with Heroes and Hench. Facing Hero teams all the way to halls, and usually us vs one real team vs heroes, is just retarded. Winning halls means nothing if you're farming bots over and over.


Of course, spending more time spamming LFG then playing is not retarded.

Let me guess, because it doesn't happen to you.



Why can't you guys simply make a LFG interface? Is it really that hard? WoW's done it, why can't you?

Good question.

MasterNightfall
03-11-2006, 23:16
For over a year HA (Tombs) was one of the top tier high end PvP places on the game,

More like a running gag of the PvP game.


But look now, it isn't more than Team Arena.

It's reached that status about a year back.


It's a disgrace to anyone that ever enjoyed the true tombs when they existed.

Pre-release.


But this 6v6 is unacceptable. More than that, not only was it made 6v6 but now it was changed to PvE. WOW..... Am I the only one that has a odd feeling they don't really care what patrons of something think, but rather the masses.
News flash - if a game is only fun for 0.1% of the playerbase, there's something wrong with it.

werd
03-11-2006, 23:32
More like a running gag of the PvP game.

how does infesting HA with heroes/hench improve this?

Djinn Effer
03-11-2006, 23:41
More like a running gag of the PvP game.

It's reached that status about a year back.

Heres this, I'll use an example of David's: Fixing a broken leg by breaking the other one is not a good way to solve a problem.



Pre-release.

You think I'm talking about back when I held with K A R M A [ZEN] for hours on end in beta...? Try up untill a point shortly after the invention of IWAY, even far up to the point of Patient Relaxed People [pRp] Ranger Spike and a little further, past the point when I left Marvel Superheroes [MS] due to it slowly dieing after the PvPx weekend up to when I was in Yin and Yang [YAY] and it was a good guild, you know the one formed from Red, Got Rice, and Only The Validus [Man]? You know, when Tombs changed to PvE and relocated to Heroes Ascent... Thats when it stopped.


News flash - if a game is only fun for 0.1% of the playerbase, there's something wrong with it.

Zero point one percent huh? I suppose you gathered these statistics yourself?

Oh wait! I get it. They're recent statistics of how many people like the new 6v6 HA PvE arena!

Buddah
03-11-2006, 23:54
P v P = Player verses Player

AI does not count as players, that is the same lines as PvE: So, effectively HA is no longer a PvP area, but a mixed PvE vs PvP area.

By your own definition GvG is also not PvP.

Wuzzman
04-11-2006, 01:01
to be honest.....the old ha, 8v8 and all its builds and strategy....was consider garbage by the majority of the players who where lfg in the HA. Lets recap. Ha has been considered garbage for a year. No one liked Hero Ascent and only played it cause they couldn't get into a guild for consistent gvg. The only solution that the "experienced" HA'ers could give the fustrated masses was to gain a large network of friends...the same network they automaticly lacked because they couldn't even get their own guild to be consistent in gvg. 2 changes hit in rapid sucession. First was 6v6 that shortly turned ha into a ghost town. The experienced players left, and about half the fotm builds commonly used by the masses became useless which alone triggered a mass migration away from ha. The second was Nightfalls which introduced heroes. That pretty much ticketed off the pvp'ers who stuck around after the 6v6 holocast and was hoping for some quality hero ascent when the dust settles(maybe the return of the former r6-12 emoters was what they was waiting for). Concidently these were the same people who had their heads underneath a very large rock when the masses where screaming about the problems of hero ascent. So while the average pvp'er was cheering, the ones with the social network and the guild, (you know the type that ignored the disgruntle look on the faces of the thousands pvp'er who just wanted to do some "casual pvp") was busy groaning.

Wuzzman
04-11-2006, 01:08
Yeah. What if that happened every other game? It would be kind of funny at first, but after a while you'd get bored. Same thing with henchway. It's fun to slaughter the first couple groups, but when all you run into is henchway it gets stupid.

HA was supposed to be an upper tier arena. It shouldn't be catering to people who can't get a group of 6 people together, or complete newcomers. That's what TA and RA is for.

And people need to realize that it's not all about the AI being too good or too bad. It's about the AI itself. We want to play against real people, not bots, regardless of whether or not the bots provide a challenge or not.


unfortuntely ha hasn't been a uper tier arena in actuality for at least a year now....people eyes are just open to the dead horse which was hero ascent.

Nurse With Wound
04-11-2006, 04:02
This is a pretty complicated issue. I'm not even going into the request to change from 8v8 to 6v6, or from 6v6 back to 8v8, because I'm pretty sure that 6v6 is here to stay. (And polls support that change, at nearly 80% in favour, even after the end of the double rewards that some people mistakenly believed had an influence on the outcome of the votes.)

First of all, why does 6v6 is here to stay? Havent you notice the decline of players playing that arena? Dont deny the obvious facts Gaile. Around 1/4 of my friendlist left the game, selling their accounts on ebay, another half stopped playin HA at all. The remaining 1/4 is going to leave when they will get their desired emote. I know you noticed too that the number of districs is way lower than it used to be. Face it Gaile. PVP comunity in general didnt like that update. Polls were made on forums who gather mostly pve community ( gwonline), or gvg community ( guild hall ). You also know this, so dont try to use polls as an excuse. HA players dont have their own message boards, most of us were busy playing the game.. and that was probably a mistake, cause our voice wasnt heard. But it is clearly head now, most of the threads devoted to the change to 6b6 have NEGATIVE responses ( apart from guild hall, but HA community doesnt hang out there ). But whats even more important - the number of players playing HA now is around half of what it was. Everyone can see it! Do you really think the change was for the good? I know its hard to say " sorry we made a mistake ", I know its easier to deny it, and try to spread false propaganda ( vide already infamous scribe article ). Guess what, we're too old for spin doctor tricks. We know whats really going on. You made a mistake ( trying to do a good thing, granted ) - why not say sorry, and return things to how they were? I know you already lost some of players ( 3 of my friends quitted the game - and I know much more did that ). So why 6v6 is here to stay? You really want to loose more? Lets face it, PVE'ers and those who had troubles socializing with other human beings ( "cant find a team" ) didnt stayed in HA for long. The place is starting to be EMPTY. You should do something about it.


The inclusion of Heroes in HA is another topic altogether, and it has opened up a lot of interesting discussion. We definitely are listening to your thoughts. The difficulty is this: For everyone who says "I hate losing to AI," there's someone who says "I love having Heroes and being able to play PvP with a chance of winning." For everyone who says "The AI is too smart, and causes people to choose AI over real players," there is someone else saying "I'm playing HA for the first time in months because it's easy to form a party now and I don't get dissed for not having XX Rank." Can you see the difficulties here? How do you address so many opinions when many of them directly conflict with others?

Lets move to another unfortunate update. Heroes in HA. See, dear Gaile, you compleatly missed the point here. No one is complaining ( at least no one serious in pvp scene ) that heroes are too much of a challenge, because they simply arent. Negative voices concerning heroes touch totally different aspect you seem to miss entirely. Right now, around 80% of HA population are AI BOTS. Have in mind that we're talking about pvp arena here. Right now, in PLAYER VS PLAYER mode, actual PLAYERS are MINORITY. We play the game for team effort. Player vs Player, Team vs Team, team of friends vs another team of friends. Not bored team vs one anti-social looser and his bunch of BOTS.

Why do you promote anti-social behaviours in TEAM PVP GAME? Isnt Guild Wards supposed to be multiplayer game that promotes team effort? Why the bots then? Why reward anti-social people who are unnable to communicate with other people and form a team? Do you really want to make a game for loosers who cant communicate with others? Why ostracize the active, friendly players who NEVER had ANY problems with finding a team in Heroes Ascend? Why give all the cookies to those who hate other people or are scared of them, and thus are unnable to form a friendlist and find a team?

All the rank discrimination problem is compleatly non-existant. Its not an issue at all. Everyone was rank zero at the begining. I'll tell you my story - I started playing the game very, very late ( january 2006 ), I started pvp'ing around may 2006 - when there already were r12 people and all the social network of PVP players was already created. I was complete newcomer. But still, being rank ZERO I was able to find some friends and quickly build a large group of friends. Right now I'm very close to rank 9. Not because I grinded day and night. Just because I wanted to TRY, and I wasnt afraid of other human beings. Just because I like other people and I like to play with people. When you're nice person, who is able to communicate and socialize with others, rank isnt a problem. I won the HOH for the first time when I was rank ONE monk, monking for rank NINE PLUS team ( kudos to Almas Darksoul and old British Bulldogs [DOGS] crew ). Rank discrimination? Where???

Lets face it - those who moan that they are being discriminated because of their low rank are people I personally despise. Because those are people who doesnt want to give anything from themselves, they want everything being served to them. They dont even try to make friends, they are most likely close-minded hermits, or just plain vulgar, primitive people, unnable to exist in the human society. The key to finnding a team, is to have an ability to make friends, to socialize. Thats the whole secret.

With the changes you've made, you destroyed Heroes Ascend for the active, evolving and friendly community of dedicated PVP players. You KILLED THE WHOLE FUN FOR US. You decided to listen to the whining rants of those antisocial people. People who cant make any friends, people who are unnable to work with others, people who doesnt want to learn and listen. Is that your customer target? Is that the community you want to have in this game? But isnt that supposed to be a TEAM GAME? Where group of friends is fighting with another group of friends?

Let me rephrase. HA is supposed to promote high-level, highly competetive PVP. HA is NOT about FIGHITING AGAINST BOTS. I want to face other people, not dumb AI. Why have you removed the high-end pvp arena from the game? Any reasons?


I'm simply suggesting that you should give us reasons for how you feel, for we are more than willing to accept feedback or comments and truly want to consider all your thoughts on this subject.

I hope you really listen to PVP players on this one. I really do.... The changes still can be undone.

Sorry for my imperfect english, Gaile Gray. Its not my native language.

nightrunner
04-11-2006, 05:26
unfortuntely ha hasn't been a uper tier arena in actuality for at least a year now....people eyes are just open to the dead horse which was hero ascent.

So, why don't we fix it instead of breaking it further?

Bacon
04-11-2006, 05:53
So, why don't we fix it instead of breaking it further?

Because Anet thinks everything they do is great. In their minds its not broken. On top of that, there's too many people who quit the game to fix it now.

NTsan
04-11-2006, 08:48
Cast Vocal Minority on hardcore PVP player

haha you can't shout anymore :wave:

Parker Bsb
04-11-2006, 12:55
I've had to delete a few posts with PERSONAL attacks against Gaile - she is a member of these forums and is to be treated the same way as any other member. DIRECT INTENTIONAL FLAMING is a no-no.

To add my 2 cents Gaile, alot of members are frustrated with the state of HA - 6v6 vs 8v8: Every player I've spoken with in game dislikes the change, most of THIS PvP base dislikes the change so I have a suspicion that the poll was slightly biased - have you considered posting a poll in the PvP section of each of the elite fansites and taking those results? How about standing in HA for a few hrs (instead of LA etc...) and getting their opinions? Truthfully asking how HA is doing in a PvE area is like asking a group of baseball players if they should change the rules of hockey.

I guess what I'm trying to say is simple: if the change affects PvP ask them not the PvE crowd - I know the game is meant to be integrated for both, but it's fairly evident that it is not.

As for bots in the arena - it's all been said so I'm not going to get too into it: voicing my opinion AI is for PvE and PvP if you can't get enough to form a group (say a max of 2 hench or heroes would be fair IMO).

To the rest of you - keep posts civil and they wont get deleted. I realize you are irritated by the change but attacking members won't make it any better.

Tristan Chapin
04-11-2006, 13:37
To the rest of you - keep posts civil and they wont get deleted. I realize you are irritated by the change but attacking members won't make it any better.

Yeah I've seen so much of this on the top threads at the moment. So much ranting and anger over the changed HA. Unfortunately when your posts sound angry, it reflects badly back at you. It makes you and your concerns look small rather than large, and it turns the reader off. But the posts on this forum that come of a desire for reasoned discussion are interesting. And convincing.

slakt
04-11-2006, 15:09
With no disrespect to anyone, I find it hillarious that someone posting on GWO is accusing another forum of being "dominated by PvE players" - especially when the forum in question is in fact TGH, arguably the most PvP oriented public Guild Wars forum.


With no disrespect to anyone, I find it hilarious that someone would use prejudice over logic when making an argument. How does the forum I post this on affect the point of my argument in any way? Just because I post this on GWO I am unable to see that GWO is the most PvE oriented forum? And secondly, just because a > b does not mean that a = big. Just because TGH is the most PvP oriented does not mean that it's not dominated by PvE:ers, but most notably; just because it's the most PvP oriented does not mean that there are a lot of people there who care about HA, since it's mostly GvG oriented.

Anyhow, it's very clear that the polls fail. Like I believe someone mentioned, it's like basing a rule change in hockey on the opinions of basket-ball players.

Bacon
04-11-2006, 16:29
With no disrespect to anyone, I find it hilarious that someone would use prejudice over logic when making an argument. How does the forum I post this on affect the point of my argument in any way? Just because I post this on GWO I am unable to see that GWO is the most PvE oriented forum? And secondly, just because a > b does not mean that a = big. Just because TGH is the most PvP oriented does not mean that it's not dominated by PvE:ers, but most notably; just because it's the most PvP oriented does not mean that there are a lot of people there who care about HA, since it's mostly GvG oriented.

Anyhow, it's very clear that the polls fail. Like I believe someone mentioned, it's like basing a rule change in hockey on the opinions of basket-ball players.

I find it halarious how we all can understand this, but Anet can't seem to...

lina of skyrim
04-11-2006, 16:47
More on the Hero subject, ive seen alot of players using the reason "Its Faster to form partys then waiting for pugs" or as gaile said people who havent HAed in months have started because they dont have to wait for partys to form, my question to this is why then does arenanet continue to have a random arenas or Team arenas for that matter for fast matches? also wouldent the addition of heros HURT the newer players more then help? sure their getting faster games and not worrying about forming a party but hasent forming partys and working your way up the pvp community social status been a part of guildwars (HA)? these new players are not playing with more experianced players in-fact their not playing with ANY players if they are running a full heroway, the argument can also be used that its too hard to join the right PuGs or that your never allowed in the more experianced groups, but that is just a little unfair to people who have also started in the same spot as the newer players and have worked (to some degree) to be able to play with better teams, also if its so hard to join "good" pugs why do these players simpy not form their own? or if lack of players is a problem why then not join an HA guild (which their are several HA guilds who dont have a rank requirement, activly recruiting in Ha alot) granted it wont be the best guild but at least youll get your foot in the door. i dont know if the aim of HA is to be a fast paced fast play area which you can come on with 15 minutes left, form, get a run or 2 then leave, or an area which requires players to find players for their team, form, play (the half hour/hour process).

opuis
04-11-2006, 18:35
All the rank discrimination problem is compleatly non-existant. Its not an issue at all. Everyone was rank zero at the begining. I'll tell you my story - I started playing the game very, very late ( january 2006 ), I started pvp'ing around may 2006 - when there already were r12 people and all the social network of PVP players was already created. I was complete newcomer. But still, being rank ZERO I was able to find some friends and quickly build a large group of friends. Right now I'm very close to rank 9. Not because I grinded day and night. Just because I wanted to TRY, and I wasnt afraid of other human beings. Just because I like other people and I like to play with people. When you're nice person, who is able to communicate and socialize with others, rank isnt a problem. I won the HOH for the first time when I was rank ONE monk, monking for rank NINE PLUS team ( kudos to Almas Darksoul and old British Bulldogs [DOGS] crew ). Rank discrimination? Where???

Lets face it - those who moan that they are being discriminated because of their low rank are people I personally despise. Because those are people who doesnt want to give anything from themselves, they want everything being served to them.

I have to agree with the above. Rank discrimination isnt what people make it out to be. All it is are parties forming around their current rank. Afterall, why wouldnt you want to do this? Heck, just this morning my 6-9 group took a r3. When he said he was r3, the only response by us was "Ok". We all understand that everyone started at rank 0.

I didnt start PvP until late either. I didnt complain like alot of people, but came to the forums to ask advice how to get into it. The advice given was make friends and be social. Nobody called me noob, hurt my feelings, or anything else along those lines.

I didnt see nearly as many AI teams as I have in the past week. Maybe this is because it was Euro primtime. Hopefully the fad is wearing off...

Hip Stroke
04-11-2006, 18:57
The Design Team will continue to look at Heroes' Ascent. Ultimately they may decide to leave it as is, or perhaps they will make some sort of change to party formation.
Quite easy to decide.

Do you want HA to be a PVP (we all know what this acronym stands for, yeh?) arena? Either lowering hero to 1 per party or just dont allow them to be played in HA at all will do the trick.

Tommy Bostaff
04-11-2006, 19:40
First time poster, long time reader.

Gaile,
From a non-biased point of view HA has been for lack of a better word "ruined." Why? Well as you know when you develop a fan-base you have to keep them pleased. Well you had an HA fan-base, we were there. While we were in a minority we were happy and enjoyed our time.

So here comes the 6v6 change. Well you know what? You only altered the variation of how HA functions. The faithful changed builds. Monks were changed to reflect the GVG meta-game and other meta-games had to be ignored for the sake of numbers. How you say? Well with 8v8 you can create a build, like GVG, that can contain anti-___ builds. For example warders were fantastic for anti-melee. Water eles (after the smite nerf) could have come back to their fantastic anti-melee capabilities. The curses attribute of course contains great anti-melee. Then you have mesmers for anti-monk/anti-cast. Etc etc...

With the 6v6 change you changed HA to be even more rock-paper-scissors. You had less versatility to counter numerous builds. You could factor in condition builds but be vulnerable to hex builds. You could be strong against melee but weak against casters. The capability to create anti builds was over.

However HA was not dead. We adapter. Now you add heroes. GG as we enjoy declaring. That was the final straw, fine', goodbye. Adding heroes completely took everything out of HA. Go into HOH observe and watch 90% of the matches contain heroway. It is just plain ridiculous. PvP as everyway has pointed out is not supposed to be dominated by bots. Bots can exist but they should not flourish.

Now can things recover? Sadly it is very doubtful. Anet I love what you do but this was written in permanent ink, no erasing this mistake. The loyal has noticed what HA became and split. Don't believe me? There is now two IDs instead of the normal 4-5 and even more depending on the time of day. Idle in ID1 and look at the ads running. You won't see much actual "people" forming groups. Now onto the regulars. The best HA guilds are non-existant. Guilds you always see winning halls have left. Now it is almost always "so&so's" team. And guess what? So&so has heroes.

I'm sorry to say but HA has been killed. I've played HA for over a year and loved it. Now I just frown at what has become. GVG is still perfect, HA is now deceased.

Gaile, I'm not even sure what this post stands for except a leak of thoughts onto a concrete medium. However you need to know that HA has become not only a PVE arena but the faithful are gone. HA is now the lowest facet of GW, no kidding.

I wish you luck and all your colleagues in trying to pull off the miracle of resurrecting HA. But this is one sorry player and I believe I can win the lottery before HA is back to what it was. But I hope to be proved wrong.

Thanks for your input and thanks to Anet for all your hard work,
IGN : Tommy Bostaff

Wuzzman
04-11-2006, 21:36
First of all, why does 6v6 is here to stay? Havent you notice the decline of players playing that arena? Dont deny the obvious facts Gaile. Around 1/4 of my friendlist left the game, selling their accounts on ebay, another half stopped playin HA at all. The remaining 1/4 is going to leave when they will get their desired emote. I know you noticed too that the number of districs is way lower than it used to be. Face it Gaile. PVP comunity in general didnt like that update. Polls were made on forums who gather mostly pve community ( gwonline), or gvg community ( guild hall ). You also know this, so dont try to use polls as an excuse. HA players dont have their own message boards, most of us were busy playing the game.. and that was probably a mistake, cause our voice wasnt heard. But it is clearly head now, most of the threads devoted to the change to 6b6 have NEGATIVE responses ( apart from guild hall, but HA community doesnt hang out there ). But whats even more important - the number of players playing HA now is around half of what it was. Everyone can see it! Do you really think the change was for the good? I know its hard to say " sorry we made a mistake ", I know its easier to deny it, and try to spread false propaganda ( vide already infamous scribe article ). Guess what, we're too old for spin doctor tricks. We know whats really going on. You made a mistake ( trying to do a good thing, granted ) - why not say sorry, and return things to how they were? I know you already lost some of players ( 3 of my friends quitted the game - and I know much more did that ). So why 6v6 is here to stay? You really want to loose more? Lets face it, PVE'ers and those who had troubles socializing with other human beings ( "cant find a team" ) didnt stayed in HA for long. The place is starting to be EMPTY. You should do something about it.



Lets move to another unfortunate update. Heroes in HA. See, dear Gaile, you compleatly missed the point here. No one is complaining ( at least no one serious in pvp scene ) that heroes are too much of a challenge, because they simply arent. Negative voices concerning heroes touch totally different aspect you seem to miss entirely. Right now, around 80% of HA population are AI BOTS. Have in mind that we're talking about pvp arena here. Right now, in PLAYER VS PLAYER mode, actual PLAYERS are MINORITY. We play the game for team effort. Player vs Player, Team vs Team, team of friends vs another team of friends. Not bored team vs one anti-social looser and his bunch of BOTS.

Why do you promote anti-social behaviours in TEAM PVP GAME? Isnt Guild Wards supposed to be multiplayer game that promotes team effort? Why the bots then? Why reward anti-social people who are unnable to communicate with other people and form a team? Do you really want to make a game for loosers who cant communicate with others? Why ostracize the active, friendly players who NEVER had ANY problems with finding a team in Heroes Ascend? Why give all the cookies to those who hate other people or are scared of them, and thus are unnable to form a friendlist and find a team?

All the rank discrimination problem is compleatly non-existant. Its not an issue at all. Everyone was rank zero at the begining. I'll tell you my story - I started playing the game very, very late ( january 2006 ), I started pvp'ing around may 2006 - when there already were r12 people and all the social network of PVP players was already created. I was complete newcomer. But still, being rank ZERO I was able to find some friends and quickly build a large group of friends. Right now I'm very close to rank 9. Not because I grinded day and night. Just because I wanted to TRY, and I wasnt afraid of other human beings. Just because I like other people and I like to play with people. When you're nice person, who is able to communicate and socialize with others, rank isnt a problem. I won the HOH for the first time when I was rank ONE monk, monking for rank NINE PLUS team ( kudos to Almas Darksoul and old British Bulldogs [DOGS] crew ). Rank discrimination? Where???

Lets face it - those who moan that they are being discriminated because of their low rank are people I personally despise. Because those are people who doesnt want to give anything from themselves, they want everything being served to them. They dont even try to make friends, they are most likely close-minded hermits, or just plain vulgar, primitive people, unnable to exist in the human society. The key to finnding a team, is to have an ability to make friends, to socialize. Thats the whole secret.

With the changes you've made, you destroyed Heroes Ascend for the active, evolving and friendly community of dedicated PVP players. You KILLED THE WHOLE FUN FOR US. You decided to listen to the whining rants of those antisocial people. People who cant make any friends, people who are unnable to work with others, people who doesnt want to learn and listen. Is that your customer target? Is that the community you want to have in this game? But isnt that supposed to be a TEAM GAME? Where group of friends is fighting with another group of friends?

Let me rephrase. HA is supposed to promote high-level, highly competetive PVP. HA is NOT about FIGHITING AGAINST BOTS. I want to face other people, not dumb AI. Why have you removed the high-end pvp arena from the game? Any reasons?



I hope you really listen to PVP players on this one. I really do.... The changes still can be undone.

Sorry for my imperfect english, Gaile Gray. Its not my native language.


Rank discrimination does exist....9 out of 10 pvp'ers can tell you that about hero ascent. You was lucky enough to be able to play as a monk. Guess what they are high demand so getting a group for you is not even a problem alot of my friends are monks for that reason. I'm r4 now didn't bother doing ha for several months after joining an active guild and my focus has been gvg. Only heroed ascent recently because I wanted to farm balthz faction...got pissed off because of 6v6 change but realized there was alot more noobs so oh well, quickest 10k faction I gained...

I say this again. The "experienced players" with their emotes and social circles have been hiding their heads under a very large rock. Considering that I am one of them I'm surprised that I was enough of an outsider to notice 4 district full of unhappy people who watched me go into hero ascent only to shortly be joined by guildies and friends in a matter of seconds. Pretend like me, you and the other 10% of the guild wars pvp community are the only thing that matters. EVeryone else is dancing in the streets. The old ha is dead. It was garbage. Nothing really elite about it. And it has been dead and rotting since the day you played it(was that back in May I believe?). Get over it.

Inner Salbat
04-11-2006, 22:43
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the 8v8 vs 6v6 debate, you should always be able to counter if it be 6 or 8 it really shouldn't matter, and should never be a case of you've won exiting the gate, no matter what, the only time that should ever come is if you 1v1, other wise it should always be who ever has the most skill, (apparently according to anet).

But I digress, one of my guild members from [ANZ] won halls the other day, first time any [ANZ] member ever has, while we was over joyed and proud of it, when we watched obs to find, that in fact the member was using henchmen I have to say it took quite a bit of pride away, or sense of accomplishment.

Of course you realize if we somehow manage to get this idea over turned, we've got another fight on our hands after that?, that's right getting them out of GvG!

Random Arena - N/A
Team Arena - Yes
Hero's Ascent - Absolutely Not
Ranked Guild vs Guild - Absolutely Not
Unranked Guild vs Guild - Yes
Hero's vs Hero's - N/A
Alliance Battles - Yes
Scrimmages - Yes

Bacon
04-11-2006, 23:11
The Design Team will continue to look at Heroes' Ascent. Ultimately they may decide to leave it as is, or perhaps they will make some sort of change to party formation.

The design team actually thinks changing it to 6v6 AND turning it into Hero vs Hero Arena v2 was a great idea? And may keep it that way?

How is a party formation option going to help now? Make it easier for people to choose their Heroes? No one's going to form groups, even if you do make a LFG system. They'll continue to use thier bots.

The design team really needs to learn to design games. That is what they're paid for, right?

Inner Salbat
04-11-2006, 23:16
The design team actually thinks changing it to 6v6 AND turning it into Hero vs Hero Arena v2 was a great idea? And may keep it that way?

How is a party formation option going to help now? Make it easier for people to choose their Heroes? No one's going to form groups, even if you do make a LFG system. They'll continue to use thier bots.

The design team really needs to learn to design games. That is what they're paid for, right?

Actually no, you paid for a game they design you *MUST* endure all manner of nerfs, and changes to the game and like it, and thinks it's the best thing ever! because ultimately (' like removing the favor system ') any hard choices that require actual work, will get side lined, because... from what I can gathered from the 'make of' dvd, they have no clue which direction they want to focus this game other than, they want to focus it there way and no one elses, so in other words you paid for game to be dictated too.

Djinn Effer
04-11-2006, 23:26
.......Rank discrimination does exist........I'm r4.........The "experienced players" with their emotes and social circles..........I am one of them.......


ROFL!!!!!! If nothing else you gave me a good laugh. The rest of your post doesn't even deserve a reply.

Inner Salbat
04-11-2006, 23:31
ROFL!!!!!! If nothing else you gave me a good laugh. The rest of your post doesn't even deserve a reply.

yep I kind of stopped reading when I saw R4 (sarcasm)

grimwold
04-11-2006, 23:51
The post from wuzzman is another example of someone that doesnt care about ha and thinks its garbage, yet manages to have an opinion on it, seemingly revelling in whats happening to it.

Why do you even post if thats how you feel wuzzman ? why dont you just go and pve or gvg or whatever it is that YOU prefer to do and leave us to try to get our voices heard about what WE prefer to do ?

DreamWind
05-11-2006, 00:02
Show me the statistical evidence that the majority of players disliked the 6v6 change. I've been playing HoH since the beginning, and me and 90% of players I know liked the change. Everybody was complaining before about how boring HA was before the change, then a change was made and there was still complaining. Get over it. The only people complaining about the change were those that had a core team anyways, and that was the vast minority. The majority of people spent their hours spamming LFG in the chat for 1-2 runs.

The allowance of heros is definately different though. 90% of players I know dislike it. Like I said before, I have mixed thoughts on the issue. Henchies were always allowed in HA, why are people complaining about heros now? I guess the reason is their popularity and turning the place into heroland which I can understand. I don't mind fighting the occasional hero, but every match is obsurd. I'd say put some kind of limit on heros in HA for sure.

But yea if Anet wanted to fix HA back up, they would do something about heros (probably remove them) and add a good party forming system. Those are probably the main concerns atm.

DreamWind
05-11-2006, 00:03
Oh sorry for the double post but I have to post this. The people saying there was no rank discrimination in HA have no idea what they are talking about in my opinion. I am R7 and I couldn't get into R9+ teams to save my life so GG.

Djinn Effer
05-11-2006, 00:20
Oh sorry for the double post but I have to post this. The people saying there was no rank discrimination in HA have no idea what they are talking about in my opinion. I am R7 and I couldn't get into R9+ teams to save my life so GG.

You see, thats because: If you are r7 and it is a r9+, and you were to join then it would no longer be a r9+ team. (That would make it r7+)

I don't think people understand this, and it really bothers me. Do you people even understand what it means..? Rank Three Plus, Rank Six Plus, Rank Nine Plus. It means that rank (not less than that rank), and above. So, what you might find on a r9+ team would be: r9, r10, r11, r12, r13, r14 (and so on), you would not find a r8 - simply because then it would be a r8+ team.

I suppose if the majority of the team is a certain rank you could call it a "Rank (insert rank) group", but not a "Rank (insert rank)+ group."

Just had to clear that up, it bothers me.


By the way, of course rank discrimination exists. Discrimination exists everywhere, you are at a certain level of play and you want to play with others at your level of play. You don't see the NFL drafting Middle School students do you.? Theres a reason for that!

Its the same concept.

DreamWind
05-11-2006, 00:49
By the way, of course rank discrimination exists. Discrimination exists everywhere, you are at a certain level of play and you want to play with others at your level of play. You don't see the NFL drafting Middle School students do you.? Theres a reason for that!

Its the same concept.

Of course it exists, and its one reason a lot of people don't play HA. I was just stating it for the people who said it didn't exist.

By your definition though, only R12+ should be allowed in HA because that is NFL calibur players. Of course we know then HA would be a dead zone.

melandrus elite
05-11-2006, 01:00
Of course it exists, and its one reason a lot of people don't play HA. I was just stating it for the people who said it didn't exist.

By your definition though, only R12+ should be allowed in HA because that is NFL calibur players. Of course we know then HA would be a dead zone.

unranked=non-starting freshman
r3-4=starting varsity high school HA player
r5=minor college
r6-7=ranked college
r8-10=average NFL player
r11+=peyton manning calibur player

thats how I would put my rankings of HA to the NFL

Djinn Effer
05-11-2006, 01:01
Of course it exists, and its one reason a lot of people don't play HA. I was just stating it for the people who said it didn't exist.

By your definition though, only R12+ should be allowed in HA because that is NFL calibur players. Of course we know then HA would be a dead zone.

Its more along the lines of.. If you were an NFL player, you would think a Middle Schooler would be a huge disadvantage to have on your team - and it would be. Its the same for HA, if you are rank (insert rank) you wouldn't want a (insert a rank several tiers lower) in your team, as it would also be a huge disadvantage. Its the same in retrospect, because with rank comes knowledge (at least in most occasions.) of maps, tactics, strategies, and so on. More rank, more knowledge generally. Rank may not equal skill, but it does at least signify that person's knowledge of the game time. It'd be hard as hell getting to r9 never knowing what you're supposed to do in a relic run, no?

Well, some people don't know what you're supposed to do in relic runs and I'm sure they'll eventually learn. But my point is across effectively, I think, so I'll be stopping now.

ZiegDivine
05-11-2006, 01:04
All the rank discrimination problem is compleatly non-existant. Its not an issue at all. Everyone was rank zero at the begining. I'll tell you my story - I started playing the game very, very late ( january 2006 ), I started pvp'ing around may 2006 - when there already were r12 people and all the social network of PVP players was already created. I was complete newcomer. But still, being rank ZERO I was able to find some friends and quickly build a large group of friends. Right now I'm very close to rank 9. Not because I grinded day and night. Just because I wanted to TRY, and I wasnt afraid of other human beings. Just because I like other people and I like to play with people. When you're nice person, who is able to communicate and socialize with others, rank isnt a problem. I won the HOH for the first time when I was rank ONE monk, monking for rank NINE PLUS team ( kudos to Almas Darksoul and old British Bulldogs [DOGS] crew ). Rank discrimination? Where???

I have to agree with Nurse here. I myself am rank 5 (100 fame away from rank 6). Yes, Djinn, I'm sure you find the rest of my post unneccesary to read, but you're a minority when it comes to high ranked players discriminating against me. I too, like Nurse, have played with or against top players in the HA community. Rank discrimination doesn't exist. Ability is all that HAers look at, and only PuGs (which you shouldn't aspire to join anyway) will discriminate against you. I've been in good guilds like sP (Wallace and Bella taking me in, teaching me some of the basics of HA pvp), and then from there, established my friend network and moved to other guilds like StP (one of the top HA euro guilds ... or at least they were pre-6v6 nerf), mYm (included some of the old Mush players, and was merged with ImK at one time) and ImK (my current guild). I've also had the pleasure of playing with TasH (thanks to Almas and Dazz for letting me guest with them) and Pew to mention some. Keep in mind that most of those guilds have members that are r9+ (except Pew, who recruit r6+). At any point when you see a good team in HA I've played either with them or against them (and most probably beaten them as well). Does this prove that I'm a good player? No, but it proves that rank discrimination is non-existant to those who want to play in HA. If you can't find a group, if you can't get anybody to take you in it's your own fault.

P.S. I started looking at PvP seriously around July or August of this year.

Djinn Effer
05-11-2006, 01:35
(...)I myself am rank 5 (100 fame away from rank 6).
(...)
Yes, Djinn, I'm sure you find the rest of my post unneccesary to read, but you're a minority when it comes to high ranked players discriminating against me.
(...)
Rank discrimination doesn't exist.
(...)

You just broke your own argument. How on earth would I discriminate against your rank if rank discrimination does not exist? Theres a good question.

You are one of the lucky people that get into higher ranked groups via friends, rather than rank. You are never asked your rank because your friend's friends assume that said friend would not get someone bad to come play. It makes sense too, it would make him/her lose with everyone else so it would make no sense to bring in a horrible liability.

A lot of people, however do not have this luxury. Not many high ranked people take in low ranked people under their wing either. Why? Its a lot of work, more than that... Its frustrating at times. There are usually very seemingly obvious questions that are asked quite frequently and a lot of silly mistakes are made, which does tend to get on people's nerves. Bravo to those that have the patience to do this, they are truely noble and patient individuals.

I will not pretend to be a saint; I do not have the patience to do this, most people do not. I cannot stand inexperienced players, I really can't. After playing for so much time and learning things for yourself, you don't want to have to go and in turn have to go through all of that frustration again with someone else. Or at least I don't.

I'm sorry.

(P.S. Zieg, I don't find the rest of your post unnecessary to read, however incorrect and inconsistent it may be. I don't recall you ever claiming to be a pro, leet, experienced player that's opinion matters cause they have the experience. - kind of like a 1st year med school student performing brain surgery.)

ZiegDivine
05-11-2006, 02:00
I phrased that wrong. In an HA setting rank discrimination exists ... only for those that don't want to try to get past it (and that's illustrated by the rest of my post). Sorry for a misunderstanding.

Djinn, I do have to agree with you that most unranked or low ranked players are either inexperienced or make silly mistakes. For me, I learned the most about HA specific tactics and strategies before I hit rank 3, and the rest of the time, I learned more and more about how to play my own class (monk) rather than anything HA specific. It is true that some players do not have that knowledge, however I believe that it's their own fault. ANet should not be holding somebody else's hand, just because some FoW armor W/Mo wants a shiny deer. I didn't get any help from ANet forming my flist, finding people who don't think that my deer (or my pre-deer) indicates my noobness. I became a good player on my own (yes, I think that I'm a good player ... you can quote me on that) and everybody else should not get the a deer, that I worked to earn, handed to them.

P.S. It's not that I'm not asked my rank ... I flash my deer freely when we win halls. The groups that I'm in just don't care, that's all.

Djinn Effer
05-11-2006, 02:29
I phrased that wrong. In an HA setting rank discrimination exists ... only for those that don't want to try to get past it (and that's illustrated by the rest of my post). Sorry for a misunderstanding.

Djinn, I do have to agree with you that most unranked or low ranked players are either inexperienced or make silly mistakes. For me, I learned the most about HA specific tactics and strategies before I hit rank 3, and the rest of the time, I learned more and more about how to play my own class (monk) rather than anything HA specific. It is true that some players do not have that knowledge, however I believe that it's their own fault. ANet should not be holding somebody else's hand, just because some FoW armor W/Mo wants a shiny deer. I didn't get any help from ANet forming my flist, finding people who don't think that my deer (or my pre-deer) indicates my noobness. I became a good player on my own (yes, I think that I'm a good player ... you can quote me on that) and everybody else should not get the a deer, that I worked to earn, handed to them.

P.S. It's not that I'm not asked my rank ... I flash my deer freely when we win halls. The groups that I'm in just don't care, that's all.

Yeah, a lot of people do suck and that is why the discrimination occurs, which it in fact does occur whether you can get around it or not. If I am rich because I have made good choices, that does not mean poverty does not exist; not at all.

Yes, exactly and what you are doing is what everyone else should be doing. (By the way, rank /= skill. A rank 0 player could be better than a r12, like I say.. Rank is experience and knowledge, not skill.)

It is their fault, it really is. A lot of people want to get better, but don't want to try hard to do it. (Our children that said their ideal future job would be lotto winners.)

From your experience with your deer, you can also see how I personally, get upset at FOTMs and people who use them. I worked hard for my first two tigers, even harder for my third which I don't have yet (r8 on that account). It really bothers me that you consciously try to improve and get better, and do.. Where as these people just click a couple buttons, do not improve, do not learn anything but do what you've done. (in terms of fame anyway) Thats the main reason I had/have a problem with IWAY. That is the reason I refused to spirit spam with MS, when I was in it. It is frustrating, but in the end.. Thats how things work. The thing is though, in the end you are the winner. Eventually builds get nerfed, the game may change.. Those players that got something fast are going to suck then. But knowledge and skill... That doesn't change.

Players that want to improve themselves are the best players in the game. I'll give an example, theres someone that posts on this board even. Wet One, I consider him one of the best players on GW by far. I remember months and months ago we were talking one day and he was telling me how he was studying GvGs to watch other Warrior's tactics and how other people did certain roles in certain builds. He was already a very good Warrior himself, he just seeked improvement. He consciously went out and attempted to improve. (and he did) He also practiced in TA and RA for hours and hours while we weren't GvGing to perfect certain things which most people probably wouldn't have even thought about.

I do the same thing, a lot of good players do... We should all be like this, after all its only human nature to want to improve one's self. I think the problem is though, after awhile people get cocky then think they don't need to continue learning and to keep improving. Thats where they fail, thats where they start becoming horrible players. That, in itself is why I reply to certain people as I do. They ruined themselves, the worst part is.. Once you're like that, you can't look at yourself and see how you're acting.. You'll automatically just think you're better.

P.S. Obviously by the time you win halls they wouldn't care your rank because they can see how you play by then.

DreamWind
05-11-2006, 06:47
So what does this argument have to do with heroes in HA again? As far as I'm concerned you are making the argument to Anet for heroway to stay because now people won't get rank discriminated against because they can just bring heroes. Not the best idea. =/

ZiegDivine
05-11-2006, 09:07
So what does this argument have to do with heroes in HA again? As far as I'm concerned you are making the argument to Anet for heroway to stay because now people won't get rank discriminated against because they can just bring heroes. Not the best idea. =/

No, the arguement is that those who have rank worked for it and why the **** should ANet give it to lazy ***** who don't want to work for theirs? If you want something in this game, work for it, we've outlined for you how to do it.

Inner Salbat
05-11-2006, 09:28
It is their fault, it really is. A lot of people want to get better, but don't want to try hard to do it. (Our children that said their ideal future job would be lotto winners.)


Playing devils advocate here, but this is not a job, its not work, it's a computer game we play for leisure and or pleasure, when it becomes "work / a job" it then becomes no fun at all, while a majority of working people tend to enjoy there chosen profession, there are still others that are only doing it because they get paid too, and given the choice both would rather do what they wanted to do, rather than work, if they had the money.

In either case, this is a game. I played "Gauntlet" for a weeks on end, not to gain some high level but because it was fun, Guild Wars is quickly become a day to day chore that, if you don't play you fall behind.

grimwold
05-11-2006, 09:43
of course rank disrimination exists. im rank 9 and play with guildies and friends list people most of the time, but if i should find myself looking for a pick up group, then usually i want people around my rank. i feel no shame in saying that, in fact why WOULDNT i want to do that ?

however, how exactly are you sayng that changing to 6v6 has changed this ? lowering the player cap and adding heroes hasnt magically made higher ranked players want to take lower ranked players with them.

getting ha back to 8v8 and wether so many npcs should be allowed per team was the point of the thread i thought.

DreamWind
05-11-2006, 11:35
If you want something in this game, work for it, we've outlined for you how to do it.

Since when should a game involve having to work in order to play? You are making the perfect argument to keep heros in HA which was exactly the thing people were complaining to remove.

SumXone
05-11-2006, 12:53
however, how exactly are you sayng that changing to 6v6 has changed this ? lowering the player cap and adding heroes hasnt magically made higher ranked players want to take lower ranked players with them.
yeah, but the lower rank ppl now get to play! fast and easy because you can fill empty slots with heroes, amazing istn't it?
now you never ever have to play with these poor low ranked souls ever!
it must make you feel real good! oh wait... maybe you do not want them to get teams, maybe you would want HA exclusively for you and all the other high rank elite pros?
get off your power-trip pls.


well, i'm rank 6, and i gained this pre-heroes with my guild.
but after a while i quit playing ha, because it goes this way all the time:

- ask in chat for pvp
- wait for ppl to show up
- prepare the build
- wait for people going to the bathroom
- wait for people getting drinks
- enter HA
- play
- lose a match
- people suddenly have to leave (oh well...)
- search new players
- disband group

so i quit.

NOW, i can take a friend, figure out a build and play. instant action! istn't that great!?!

well, we do not win very much, but sometimes we make it to the 3rd or 4th map (usually not during the rush-hour).

i really don't get what you are complaining about...
- decent teams win against heroes
- heroes do not usually make it further than the 3rd map
- heroes are "free" fame
- many many people like heroes and play HA because of this great new feature
- if you like REAL pvp without heroes, play gvg, it's top-tear pvp and hero teams will never stand there

but why do you try to take this fun away from us, the players who benefit from heroes? it does not hurt you (if you are decent), so bohooo, you have to play 2-3 hero teams, get over it. don't be so selfish.

anet, pls do not ban heroes from pvp, just look how many ppl like it and play it. PLUS many bought nightfall because of that feature, it's even on the box...

edit:
proposition: introduce hero-days: 4 out of 7 days in the week, you can take heroes, 3 days you can't.

ZiegDivine
05-11-2006, 13:56
Since when should a game involve having to work in order to play? You are making the perfect argument to keep heros in HA which was exactly the thing people were complaining to remove.

Why is this a perfect arguement? It's the truth ... fame emotes are aquired through work (it can be fun, but it's still hard work ... it's not easy getting a tiger). That's the way ANet implemented and kept it for the year and a half.

Wuzzman
05-11-2006, 15:09
yeah, but the lower rank ppl now get to play! fast and easy because you can fill empty slots with heroes, amazing istn't it?
now you never ever have to play with these poor low ranked souls ever!
it must make you feel real good! oh wait... maybe you do not want them to get teams, maybe you would want HA exclusively for you and all the other high rank elite pros?
get off your power-trip pls.


well, i'm rank 6, and i gained this pre-heroes with my guild.
but after a while i quit playing ha, because it goes this way all the time:

- ask in chat for pvp
- wait for ppl to show up
- prepare the build
- wait for people going to the bathroom
- wait for people getting drinks
- enter HA
- play
- lose a match
- people suddenly have to leave (oh well...)
- search new players
- disband group

so i quit.

NOW, i can take a friend, figure out a build and play. instant action! istn't that great!?!

well, we do not win very much, but sometimes we make it to the 3rd or 4th map (usually not during the rush-hour).

i really don't get what you are complaining about...
- decent teams win against heroes
- heroes do not usually make it further than the 3rd map
- heroes are "free" fame
- many many people like heroes and play HA because of this great new feature
- if you like REAL pvp without heroes, play gvg, it's top-tear pvp and hero teams will never stand there

but why do you try to take this fun away from us, the players who benefit from heroes? it does not hurt you (if you are decent), so bohooo, you have to play 2-3 hero teams, get over it. don't be so selfish.

anet, pls do not ban heroes from pvp, just look how many ppl like it and play it. PLUS many bought nightfall because of that feature, it's even on the box...

edit:
proposition: introduce hero-days: 4 out of 7 days in the week, you can take heroes, 3 days you can't.

hmmmm and this man is only 2 ranks above me and even he understands and wasn't even surprised by the amount of heroes in hero ascent. That just means alot of people heads are stuck under an even larger rock.

Bacon
05-11-2006, 15:48
well, we do not win very much, but sometimes we make it to the 3rd or 4th map (usually not during the rush-hour).

i really don't get what you are complaining about...
- decent teams win against heroes
- heroes do not usually make it further than the 3rd map
- heroes are "free" fame
- many many people like heroes and play HA because of this great new feature
- if you like REAL pvp without heroes, play gvg, it's top-tear pvp and hero teams will never stand there

but why do you try to take this fun away from us, the players who benefit from heroes? it does not hurt you (if you are decent), so bohooo, you have to play 2-3 hero teams, get over it. don't be so selfish.

anet, pls do not ban heroes from pvp, just look how many ppl like it and play it. PLUS many bought nightfall because of that feature, it's even on the box...

-Heroes make it to halls so often it's pitiful.
-Heroes are free fame. Yes. FREE fame. How is killing bots for free fame over and over fun? Oh sorry, it's NOT fun.
-Many many people only play because it feels like PvE. If they wanted to play around with their heroes, they could always play in Hero vs Hero... Which I'm guessing isn't used.
-Hardcore HA'ers don't want to GvG.

Don't be so selfish? We're selfish because we want to play real people in a PvP arena? If wanting to play something how it should be played is being selfish, then I guess we are.

People bought Nightfall because of that feature. To help in PvE that is. I really don't think the PvE'ers thought: "Look! HA will be like PvE now! I think I'll buy it just for that reason!"

SumXone
05-11-2006, 18:06
-Heroes make it to halls so often it's pitiful.
-Heroes are free fame. Yes. FREE fame. How is killing bots for free fame over and over fun? Oh sorry, it's NOT fun.
-Many many people only play because it feels like PvE. If they wanted to play around with their heroes, they could always play in Hero vs Hero... Which I'm guessing isn't used.
-Hardcore HA'ers don't want to GvG.

Don't be so selfish? We're selfish because we want to play real people in a PvP arena? If wanting to play something how it should be played is being selfish, then I guess we are.

People bought Nightfall because of that feature. To help in PvE that is. I really don't think the PvE'ers thought: "Look! HA will be like PvE now! I think I'll buy it just for that reason!"

gaile told us we could use heroes in HA before nightfall release. "everywhere where henchmen are usable".
want to play without heroes, try gvgs, it's fun, i know because i did thousands.
hero pvp still is pvp, you play against 2 players. you can say it's not, but it still is.
you say heroes make it to halls all the time yet you say they are free fame and easy to beat. i don't get it.
if hero teams are not easy to beat, don't you embrace the challenge?
you do not take "noobs" into your team but you do not want "noobs" to form hero teams, huh?

in the beginning, when you people made your ranks, the athmosphere was different in halls, everyone was new to it, so groups formed easy. now there is an exclusive elite that doesn't allow anyone in. new players do not get teams. heroes are a big relieve for them.

why is it less fun to beat 2 ppl + 4 heroes? because you know they do not get as angry as a full human team? because it boosts your ego? because... fill me in on that pls.
obviously hero teams are a challenge as they make it to halls "all the time", so don't you like challenges? would you like newbies to form teams that are easier to farm? is that it? AHA!

oonly
05-11-2006, 19:18
HA, is a PvP challange, not PvHero. If u want fight whit heros and versus hero, go on HERO BATTLES.

Dont tell me "go GvG" cuz i like very much playing 6vs6 and doing next rank's. Who have fun killing a hero team?

U have only one argument: "Wanna fast farm fame", its isn't good btw.

SumXone
05-11-2006, 19:54
i want to fight OTHER teams WITH a friend or several friends with or without heroes.
in hero arena i can't BUDDY PLAY, in HA i CAN buddy play.

Djinn Effer
05-11-2006, 20:39
Your solution is not to keep HA the way it is, but ask ANet to introduce another arena for your HeroPlay needs. You should not degrade something that has been developed and a huge part of the game for over a year.

Now, you ask why I say what I say (which is correct, no?) if I am against heroes?

Simple:

I may not like heroes, but I'm not going to lie and make up arguments to try to make my own sound better. When you start doing that you start leaving holes, holes that eventually get you in the end because someone figures out what you're doing. When that happens, you lose credibility and your entire argument that you were trying to push through in the first place is lacking and ineffectual. So remain honest and still get your point across... Thats how I do things.

By the way, rank was never meant to be for the casual gamers, or for the PvE players. Rank is for the "hardcore elite" players that want to grind, they want something to show for it too. It was never meant to be something easy to achieve, and PvP was meant to be verse human teams, the henchmen were only supposed to be for e7's... In my opinion, both heroes and henchmen should be removed from PvP arenas entirely, including GvG and only put in games where drops occur.

I do not think they belong in PvP, even if only by the very essence of the name of it.

I want the old HA restored, I'm not even asking for the old TOPK that I loved, just 8v8, no heroes HA.

The only thing seasoned players had left is rank = knowledge and experience, since obviously rank /= skill due to builds such as IWAY, blood spike, etc. So now we're on the slippery slope that if things are left like this, we are starting to lose even that which we can hold on to. Beyond the fact that PvE is where AI should be because those are the players that chose that they enjoyed playing with maybe some players, or maybe solo.. But they liked playing against AI mainly... It should have been left at that, the game shouldn't keep changing entirely segregated types of play for one user group and in turn completely kick the other group in the face.

It shouldn't always be about whats going to make them the most money, or what most people enjoy... Back in the 1940's most of Germany hated Jews... That did not make the holocaust right. The Jews had a right to live, and be there... That is not far different from this. PvErs don't get along with the PvP crowd, they wanted to do what we do but they didn't like the way we do things. They wanted to get the things we get, they way they like to get things... This was the symbolic genocide of the Jews. Except, right now theres still a few of us in concentration camps, though a lot of us have all but died. (e.g. many players quit and sold accounts over this decision) Maybe its time for ANet to step in and be the good guys for a change?

Wuzzman
05-11-2006, 20:39
-Heroes make it to halls so often it's pitiful.
-Heroes are free fame. Yes. FREE fame. How is killing bots for free fame over and over fun? Oh sorry, it's NOT fun.
-Many many people only play because it feels like PvE. If they wanted to play around with their heroes, they could always play in Hero vs Hero... Which I'm guessing isn't used.
-Hardcore HA'ers don't want to GvG.

Don't be so selfish? We're selfish because we want to play real people in a PvP arena? If wanting to play something how it should be played is being selfish, then I guess we are.

People bought Nightfall because of that feature. To help in PvE that is. I really don't think the PvE'ers thought: "Look! HA will be like PvE now! I think I'll buy it just for that reason!"


PVE'ERS DON'T PVP BECAUSE THEY CAN USE HEROES. Don't want ANY form of pvp and are not even attracted by being able to hero way.
Following scenerio
Pve'er takes his hero set up that he used in pve in pvp.
Pve'er loses badly
Pve'er goes back to pve

The only type of pve'er who is actually attracted to being able to pvp with heroes are the ones who wanted to pvp with real players but unfortuently couldn't get in a group. Any if not most mainly pve'er using nightfall as a chance to pvp has wanted to do so since prophercies.

Ayumu
05-11-2006, 20:53
The only type of pve'er who is actually attracted to being able to pvp with heroes are the ones who wanted to pvp with real players but unfortuently couldn't get in a group.Your argument dies right there. Getting in a group has never been difficult. There have always been hundreds (at prime time even over a thousand) of people hanging around in the various HA districts. How could anyone not get a group there except by not even trying. Which leaves the people who don't really want to do teamplay but solo PvP. Those people should use the Hero vs Hero arena.

Nurse With Wound
05-11-2006, 20:53
The only type of pve'er who is actually attracted to being able to pvp with heroes are the ones who wanted to pvp with real players but unfortuently couldn't get in a group. Any if not most mainly pve'er using nightfall as a chance to pvp has wanted to do so since prophercies.

People with no social skills have no place in competetive online gaming. They should stick to many great singleplayer games like Oblivion ( awesome game, imo best singlepayer experience ). Heroes arent the solution. Heroes are only good for ruining the PVP part of the game for PVP players.

Wuzzman
05-11-2006, 21:17
Your solution is not to keep HA the way it is, but ask ANet to introduce another arena for your HeroPlay needs. You should not degrade something that has been developed and a huge part of the game for over a year.

Now, you ask why I say what I say (which is correct, no?) if I am against heroes?

Simple:

I may not like heroes, but I'm not going to lie and make up arguments to try to make my own sound better. When you start doing that you start leaving holes, holes that eventually get you in the end because someone figures out what you're doing. When that happens, you lose credibility and your entire argument that you were trying to push through in the first place is lacking and ineffectual. So remain honest and still get your point across... Thats how I do things.

By the way, rank was never meant to be for the casual gamers, or for the PvE players. Rank is for the "hardcore elite" players that want to grind, they want something to show for it too. It was never meant to be something easy to achieve, and PvP was meant to be verse human teams, the henchmen were only supposed to be for e7's... In my opinion, both heroes and henchmen should be removed from PvP arenas entirely, including GvG and only put in games where drops occur.

I do not think they belong in PvP, even if only by the very essence of the name of it.

I want the old HA restored, I'm not even asking for the old TOPK that I loved, just 8v8, no heroes HA.

The only thing seasoned players had left is rank = knowledge and experience, since obviously rank /= skill due to builds such as IWAY, blood spike, etc. So now we're on the slippery slope that if things are left like this, we are starting to lose even that which we can hold on to. Beyond the fact that PvE is where AI should be because those are the players that chose that they enjoyed playing with maybe some players, or maybe solo.. But they liked playing against AI mainly... It should have been left at that, the game shouldn't keep changing entirely segregated types of play for one user group and in turn completely kick the other group in the face.

It shouldn't always be about whats going to make them the most money, or what most people enjoy... Back in the 1940's most of Germany hated Jews... That did not make the holocaust right. The Jews had a right to live, and be there... That is not far different from this. PvErs don't get along with the PvP crowd, they wanted to do what we do but they didn't like the way we do things. They wanted to get the things we get, they way they like to get things... This was the symbolic genocide of the Jews. Except, right now theres still a few of us in concentration camps, though a lot of us have all but died. (e.g. many players quit and sold accounts over this decision) Maybe its time for ANet to step in and be the good guys for a change?

lol. I guess if you want to make a world war 2 reference I guess i should make my own. Much of the western world (england, france, hell even the USA) was blind to the growing strenght of Germany. There has been several guesses of why no one try to knock off old Adolf when they had a chance. My guess is that the western powers and all their sophistication, simply consider Germany and its quest for power not their problem. Even the USA was willing to watch ship after ship sink to German subs just to maintain the status que. Eventually when France was obliterated and the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor, did our leaders figured they were at war. Lucky for them it wasn't too late but unfortuntely for the pvp community of Guild Wars it is. Lets recap. For about 1 year or so the pugging masses complained endlessly about the problems of hero ascent. Some of the complainers where noobs, some weren't. But I don't think the r9+ and the "elite" guilds care now did they? What did they have to say to the thousands if not millions of unhappy pvp'ers who wanted a casual game? Oh I remember what they basicly said, "Not my problem.", I guess they were right, it wasn't their problem and it neither has it been Anet problem either. So while the "elites" went into hero ascent with their ears full of wax the community was busy getting worse and the complaints even louder. Anet, god bless their souls, couldn't bare the noise. They first made hero ascent smaller 6v6(I hated this change solved nothing really)and watched as players left HA in droves. Then nightfalls came out. And guess what? Now what has been bugging the masses for years has finally been solved. Players are coming in by the droves. But the elites are mad. Their pissed. They didn't even see this coming. Now the elites are wondering why people are chosing to play with heroes who are much weaker then real players, now what they felt was sacred have been invaded and bombed to hell. And unfortuntely for them its too late. What hasn't been their problem for so long has been the driving force behind this change. The elites have spent the past year digging their own grave and boy is that a big *** grave.

Wuzzman
05-11-2006, 21:22
Your argument dies right there. Getting in a group has never been difficult. There have always been hundreds (at prime time even over a thousand) of people hanging around in the various HA districts. How could anyone not get a group there except by not even trying. Which leaves the people who don't really want to do teamplay but solo PvP. Those people should use the Hero vs Hero arena.

hmmm.....what rank are you again...I think I would understand better where this statement comes from. Because from the point of view of an r0-r2 your basicly better have a nice long day ahead of you.

Djinn Effer
05-11-2006, 21:36
You're just too stupid to get it arn't you? I'm done wasting my time though - really I am. If you want to go on then feel free, but don't count me as part of it. I've said my part, now I'm gone.

P.S. Your ww2 reference doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

Bacon
05-11-2006, 23:12
why is it less fun to beat 2 ppl + 4 heroes? because you know they do not get as angry as a full human team? because it boosts your ego? because... fill me in on that pls.
obviously hero teams are a challenge as they make it to halls "all the time", so don't you like challenges? would you like newbies to form teams that are easier to farm? is that it? AHA!

Perhaps you should play HA before you say something like this. Now listen closely. Ready?

PvP stands for Player versus Player, or People versus People. With me so far? Now, we PvP because we want to play versus other people. Tell me if I'm going to fast. Hero teams are not a challenge. They're an annoyance. Why would we want to play versus bots, if we want to PvP?

Hero teams make it to halls because all they do is face other hero teams, or get skips. Now, if you don't know what a skip is, listen: Skips are where there aren't enough teams currently available to play at the map you're at. Hence, you skip that map to the next, where a team is waiting for another team.

If this was too complicated for you to understand, here it is summed up. We want to PvP (see first paragraph if you forgot what PvP means.) We don't want to farm bots over and over. If you can't understand this, then I give up explaining.



PVE'ERS DON'T PVP BECAUSE THEY CAN USE HEROES. Don't want ANY form of pvp and are not even attracted by being able to hero way.
Following scenerio
Pve'er takes his hero set up that he used in pve in pvp.
Pve'er loses badly
Pve'er goes back to pve

The only type of pve'er who is actually attracted to being able to pvp with heroes are the ones who wanted to pvp with real players but unfortuently couldn't get in a group. Any if not most mainly pve'er using nightfall as a chance to pvp has wanted to do so since prophercies.

They want to PvP because they can use heroes. If you want to PvP, nothings stopping you. Pug a few games, keep playing with those same people, and I guarntee you'll get better. Giving the option to simply take a team of bots will attract anyone, whether they wanted to PvP or not.

I honestly can say we went versus a couple one man teams, where the guy said he heard you can use heroes in it. He asks us in the beginning how close to PvE HA is, and if its like ToPK. We roll over his bots, he whines and *****es, and says something like "**** you guys, I'm going back to farming." So yes, these heroes do attract PvE'ers who want to PvE as well.

There are so many casual players in HA with hero teams in pitiful. HA is not meant for causal players. Anet wants it to be, so they dumb it down for them.


sorry me no pve scrub....haven't done pve since january. However I do find your post hilarous. "I deserve to take part in crap which was HA since I grinded my way to r5 weeeeee", now ha has changed "I've wasted my time damn you ANET!!!" sweet is the justice of the winds of change. Three years from now I shall remember this and continue laughing.

Oh wow, January! You must be a HA expert! Yes, thats sarcasm. A lot of us have been PvPing since the game came out, so you shouldn't be thinking you know everything.

We have a couple deers and a few wolfs in our guild, which is supposted to be r10+. Why? Because they are good. One of our monks, who I think just hit rank 6 or 7, is easily as skilled as rank 10 monks. Don't use someones rank being that low as a way to insult them.

This game will be dead in three years. You'll probably be the only one laughing.

Inner Salbat
05-11-2006, 23:23
Perhaps you should play HA before you say something like this. Now listen closely. Ready?

PvP stands for Player versus Player, or People versus People. With me so far? Now, we PvP because we want to play versus other people. Tell me if I'm going to fast. Hero teams are not a challenge. They're an annoyance. Why would we want to play versus bots, if we want to PvP?


Aww no picture he'll be so confused!!.

SumXone
05-11-2006, 23:47
Perhaps you should play HA before you say something like this. Now listen closely. Ready?
and still, i do not share your view of pvp. i play gw since may 2005 i play ha, gvg and very little ta. i'm r7 have >1000k faction etc etc who gives a ****, so i know what i'm talking about.

PvP stands for Player versus Player, or People versus People. With me so far? Now, we PvP because we want to play versus other people. Tell me if I'm going to fast. Hero teams are not a challenge. They're an annoyance. Why would we want to play versus bots, if we want to PvP?
i do not care if you do or do not want to battle hero teams. personally i do not like 6 monk teams... does anyone care? i think not.
hero teams are no challenge? we (a friend and me) beat WM yesterday on scarred earth, then beat the next team (humans, too). so i think hero teams can be a challenge. we micromanage our heroes, we activate skills for them, we position them, we asign targets, we coordinate spikes. so yeah, i think it's pvp: us people vs other people. but again, i have to say, the average american pug is usually no match, i rather play against other hero teams, makes for an more thrilling experience.

but hey, give us herowayers an arena as diverse as HA with simmilar rewards, where we can play in teams of 1-6 and fill up with heroes. i would be happy.

don't get me wrong, i like human teams, but more often than not, you do not get 6 ppl. i did my share of gvg, i did so much gvg that i got annoyed. i like ha for the different maps with different objectives, i like the fast playstyle. but i do not see heroes ruining the fun.
that is my opinion and it stands against yours. maybe it is time for you to move on to gvg, HA has changed, hopefully for good.


Hero teams make it to halls because all they do is face other hero teams, or get skips. Now, if you don't know what a skip is, listen: Skips are where there aren't enough teams currently available to play at the map you're at. Hence, you skip that map to the next, where a team is waiting for another team.

If this was too complicated for you to understand, here it is summed up. We want to PvP (see first paragraph if you forgot what PvP means.) We don't want to farm bots over and over. If you can't understand this, then I give up explaining.
question: are you american? because i think here in europe we do not have skips all the time, there are tons of teams. the only time heroway could HOLD halls is maybe 09-11:00 gmt. thats when people go to work/school.

"If you can't understand this, then I give up explaining."
i see your point, but i do not share your opinion.
pls stop acting like you know better. you do not know better, you just have another opinion. spending endless hours in halls farming fame (yes, farming) does not make you any more experienced on this matter than other people, it may make you more near-sighted.

Wuzzman
06-11-2006, 00:07
Perhaps you should play HA before you say something like this. Now listen closely. Ready?

PvP stands for Player versus Player, or People versus People. With me so far? Now, we PvP because we want to play versus other people. Tell me if I'm going to fast. Hero teams are not a challenge. They're an annoyance. Why would we want to play versus bots, if we want to PvP?

Hero teams make it to halls because all they do is face other hero teams, or get skips. Now, if you don't know what a skip is, listen: Skips are where there aren't enough teams currently available to play at the map you're at. Hence, you skip that map to the next, where a team is waiting for another team.

If this was too complicated for you to understand, here it is summed up. We want to PvP (see first paragraph if you forgot what PvP means.) We don't want to farm bots over and over. If you can't understand this, then I give up explaining.




They want to PvP because they can use heroes. If you want to PvP, nothings stopping you. Pug a few games, keep playing with those same people, and I guarntee you'll get better. Giving the option to simply take a team of bots will attract anyone, whether they wanted to PvP or not.

I honestly can say we went versus a couple one man teams, where the guy said he heard you can use heroes in it. He asks us in the beginning how close to PvE HA is, and if its like ToPK. We roll over his bots, he whines and *****es, and says something like "**** you guys, I'm going back to farming." So yes, these heroes do attract PvE'ers who want to PvE as well.

There are so many casual players in HA with hero teams in pitiful. HA is not meant for causal players. Anet wants it to be, so they dumb it down for them.



Oh wow, January! You must be a HA expert! Yes, thats sarcasm. A lot of us have been PvPing since the game came out, so you shouldn't be thinking you know everything.

We have a couple deers and a few wolfs in our guild, which is supposted to be r10+. Why? Because they are good. One of our monks, who I think just hit rank 6 or 7, is easily as skilled as rank 10 monks. Don't use someones rank being that low as a way to insult them.

This game will be dead in three years. You'll probably be the only one laughing.

I think that proves my point. Pve'er comes to ha with pve build and set up. They lose and go back to farming. Pve'er who always wanted to pvp but had no intentions of dealing with the general HA attitude nightfalls is their chance.

Ayumu
06-11-2006, 00:20
question: are you american? because i think here in europe we do not have skips all the time, there are tons of teams.

Objections on that one! There are a lot less districts on the European HA servers now than there were two months ago. There are a lot more skips too. Sure, there where skips two months ago too, but at least there was a good chance you could actually play every map without skipping a lot of maps. Now on the other hand there are a lot of skips even on the lower maps, like UW -> Scarred -> Courtyard -> HoH or something like that. I haven't had a full run since the change to 6vs6 even though theoreticly it should happen more often because there's one map missing.

I think you're wrong on all other points too but won't argue on those. Everything that could be said has been said and has been repeated in an infinity loop. It boils down to "Bots are not people" vs "I'm playing the bot therefore bots are people".

Oh and btw: Bots are not people!

Buddah
06-11-2006, 00:31
This thread and some of the posters are just going downhill fast.


Despite the complaints about heroes I find it odd that so few, if any at all have not mentioned how some heroes are can and are utterly micromanaged by the player. Almost a second avatar in play at the same time for the player.

Bacon
06-11-2006, 00:55
i do not care if you do or do not want to battle hero teams. personally i do not like 6 monk teams... does anyone care? i think not.
hero teams are no challenge? we (a friend and me) beat WM yesterday on scarred earth, then beat the next team (humans, too). so i think hero teams can be a challenge. we micromanage our heroes, we activate skills for them, we position them, we asign targets, we coordinate spikes. so yeah, i think it's pvp: us people vs other people. but again, i have to say, the average american pug is usually no match, i rather play against other hero teams, makes for an more thrilling experience.
If you beat the REAL WM (not the fake one running around HA), I seriously doubt they were trying. You'd rather play against hero teams? Isn't that what the HvH arena was made for? Guess not.



don't get me wrong, i like human teams, but more often than not, you do not get 6 ppl. i did my share of gvg, i did so much gvg that i got annoyed. i like ha for the different maps with different objectives, i like the fast playstyle. but i do not see heroes ruining the fun.
that is my opinion and it stands against yours. maybe it is time for you to move on to gvg, HA has changed, hopefully for good.
How are you r7 and can't get a full team? I really hope you didn't just IWAY it all.

I would move onto GvG, but there's a couple problems with that. 1 is I refuse to buy NF. 2 is I really don't want to leave the guild I'm in, since I know everyone in it. and 3 is the rest of the r10 and 11 people I know already quit. Hence why I only play GW to monk for people when they need it. Otherwise I'm on WoW.


question: are you american? because i think here in europe we do not have skips all the time, there are tons of teams. the only time heroway could HOLD halls is maybe 09-11:00 gmt. thats when people go to work/school.

Yes I'm american, and I'm in a mostly euro guild. They've said their districts are practically dead.



i see your point, but i do not share your opinion.
pls stop acting like you know better. you do not know better, you just have another opinion. spending endless hours in halls farming fame (yes, farming) does not make you any more experienced on this matter than other people, it may make you more near-sighted.

Farming fame doesn't make me more experienced, I agree with that. Creating builds, knowing how to actually play, knowing what to do at what time, calling for spike builds, going from rank 6 or 7 to 9 from mostly monking (infusing), deciding when to split on a relic run, etc etc makes me more experienced than other people.

ImSoToast
06-11-2006, 10:33
Anyways...any1 care to explain what really is the difference between heroes arena and now ha, but two additional bots??

Also can you please tell us what rules I have to follow and builds I have to play so my fame counts?? I mean wtf no1's fame counts because it was always farmed? Also what does farming mean, really what does it mean?? How about if I really don't like gw pve but love pvp. How about if ha was really attractive to me so I played it all teh time? So now because I had a bit more time than other people I farmed my fame and its useless?

Really If your world has different rules or expectations than mine, and you will judge me by your standards, any chance of telling me these rules, expectatins, or otherwise??

I also think that a lot of rts players would love this change. Crap take your char, plus 3 heroes and effectively you have 4 chars to play with. Btw there are plenty of people that can easily micromange 4 chars, esp when 3 have an ai to help you.

DoomFrost
06-11-2006, 13:01
I think Heros are great. I've been able to do alot more HA than I could in the past.

lina of skyrim
06-11-2006, 14:56
ive got an idea instead of heros we should have a button at the bottom of the party menu called "the lazys ***** button for a party" when said button is clicked you are assembled a team of korean players who are 6 ranks higher then you, yeah that would make things easier...

DoomFrost
06-11-2006, 16:51
I don't understand why a player is considered lazy for brining Heros into a HA match. Please explain because I'm honestly trying to figure it out.

thedrjay
06-11-2006, 17:10
Why play an MMO if you're just going to do it by yourself?

SumXone
06-11-2006, 17:51
Why play an MMO if you're just going to do it by yourself?
1. gw is not massive multiplayer, it's just multiplayer.
2. i do want to play with friends, and if i do not get 6 friends, i want to fill up with heroes we controll, not pug-dorks.

DoomFrost
06-11-2006, 18:14
Why play an MMO if you're just going to do it by yourself?

Why not? I see no reason why I can't versus other players with my heros. It's still PvP regardless of how many players are fighting each other.

thedrjay
06-11-2006, 18:47
DoomFrost, It's not PvP if you're taking heroes in your party instead of real people. It's challenging coputer AI and your micromanagement skills against real people, who have the additional challenge of speaking with and coordinating with real people.

SumXone, if you can't find 6 people, then you need to play with more pugs to increase your friends list, so you will always have 6 real people to play with. it goes against the nature of the game to play a Cooperative online RPG, if you are not cooperating with anyone.

SumXone
06-11-2006, 19:25
DoomFrost, It's not PvP if you're taking heroes in your party instead of real people. It's challenging coputer AI and your micromanagement skills against real people, who have the additional challenge of speaking with and coordinating with real people.
as long as there is one human in each team, it is player vs player. it does NOT matter how many npcs. the better player will still win.


SumXone, if you can't find 6 people, then you need to play with more pugs to increase your friends list, so you will always have 6 real people to play with. it goes against the nature of the game to play a Cooperative online RPG, if you are not cooperating with anyone.
i do not want to play with pugs. sometimes i may want to, but usually pug ppl are no good, not mature enough etc.
what is a cooperative online rpg? me and another player cooperating? so, thats henchway, too as soon as we are 2.
i do not see your problem, you are not forced to play with heroes. do not think i am. i chose to do it for my own good reasons.

you do not want to fight hero teams? too bad! there are tons of teams i do not want to fight, but i live with it.

Nurse With Wound
06-11-2006, 20:29
I've had enough with those two . Go away from PVP, you dont grasp the idea. You and other heroway morons are ****ing up the fun for the majority of HA players. THE ****ING NUMBER OF SKIPS AND DISTRICS SPEAK FOR ITSELF. What else is there to explain? Heroes ascend is half of what it used to be. NO FOR BOTS IN PVP!

Bacon
06-11-2006, 21:37
as long as there is one human in each team, it is player vs player. it does NOT matter how many npcs. the better player will still win.


i do not want to play with pugs. sometimes i may want to, but usually pug ppl are no good, not mature enough etc.
what is a cooperative online rpg? me and another player cooperating? so, thats henchway, too as soon as we are 2.
i do not see your problem, you are not forced to play with heroes. do not think i am. i chose to do it for my own good reasons.

you do not want to fight hero teams? too bad! there are tons of teams i do not want to fight, but i live with it.

Are you ****ing retarded. I'm serious, are you ****ing retarded?

BOTS ARE NOT PEOPLE. How is it PvP when were facing BOTS? This goes to DoomFrost as well.

Pugs are no good? That's why pugs helped me gain contacts to get my tiger? That's why pugs got me into pretty good guilds? You're saying pugs are horrible, that includes you if you pug.

You low ranks who can't get a group need to learn PvP is People Vs People. Get off your *** and pug, add people to your friends list, and keep playing with them. Ruining HA because you're too lazy to do that is just stupid.

ImSoToast
06-11-2006, 21:57
This game should officially be changed to a single player game with an OPTION to play with other people, if they are available and want to play with you.

Sorry but a lot of arguements for heroes in ha in all threads are by people who, to me, seem to hate people in general. Lots of statements taht really are basically saying that people are stupid, they hated the fact that they have to team up with said stupid people to pvp and now heroes are the answer to this.

Bacon
06-11-2006, 22:09
This game should officially be changed to a single player game with an OPTION to play with other people, if they are available and want to play with you.

Sorry but a lot of arguements for heroes in ha in all threads are by people who, to me, seem to hate people in general. Lots of statements taht really are basically saying that people are stupid, they hated the fact that they have to team up with said stupid people to pvp and now heroes are the answer to this.


These people aren't stupid. They're just lazy as hell. They don't want to pug to build up a contact list to play with? Then don't play HA. HA was meant for PvP, making groups, finding people to play with, etc. It wasn't meant for those who put in no effort, whine about not getting groups, and turning it into People vs Bots.

ImSoToast
06-11-2006, 23:37
These people aren't stupid. They're just lazy as hell. They don't want to pug to build up a contact list to play with? Then don't play HA. HA was meant for PvP, making groups, finding people to play with, etc. It wasn't meant for those who put in no effort, whine about not getting groups, and turning it into People vs Bots.

I didn't call them stupid and honestly don't even think its laziness as much as it seems these people don't like other people or other random people. Really just seems like they don't want to play with people, at most against other people and 1v1.

Just the feeling I got reading several post. It was almost like why make me play with other people, it's bad enough I have to deal with people in real life now I have to make teams with some of them??

Bacon
07-11-2006, 00:03
I didn't call them stupid and honestly don't even think its laziness as much as it seems these people don't like other people or other random people. Really just seems like they don't want to play with people, at most against other people and 1v1.

Just the feeling I got reading several post. It was almost like why make me play with other people, it's bad enough I have to deal with people in real life now I have to make teams with some of them??

The point of PvP is playing with other people vs other people. If you don't want to play with other people in an arena (HA) where you're supported to (well, before heroes ruined it) then why are you even there? If you want to 1v1 go to Hero arena. Keep them out of HA.

DoomFrost
07-11-2006, 01:28
The point of PvP is playing with other people vs other people. If you don't want to play with other people in an arena (HA) where you're supported to (well, before heroes ruined it) then why are you even there? If you want to 1v1 go to Hero arena. Keep them out of HA.

Regardless the number of players on your team it's still player vs. player. As stated already.

The only difference is that one team has AI driven avatars on his team. Now I don't know why you show hate towards that. I honestly see nothing wrong with a computer controlled opponent.

Not many players are hardcore HA'ers like you, we just want to play for the fun of it, but some of us lack the skills of forming good people groups and when we try to look for some most of it is players looking for higher ranked characters. We didn't HA in the beggining, we don't have the experiance, and when the ranked players turn us down we have no options left.

That is why HA was brought down to 6 and that is why Heros were allowed in HA. To make grouping up easier. To provide guys/gals like us the opportunity to play in HA with another friend or two, or maybe just by ourselves if we can't find anyone.

You higher ranked guys with experiance want Heros out of HA? Then why don't you be the heros and take the time to take the inexperianced under your wing and show them the ropes than griping how HA Heroway noobs are wrecking your fun. You brought it on yourselves, well most of you did. I'm sure there are a few who do show kindness to new players, there just isn't enough of you though.

Wuzzman
07-11-2006, 02:16
Regardless the number of players on your team it's still player vs. player. As stated already.

The only difference is that one team has AI driven avatars on his team. Now I don't know why you show hate towards that. I honestly see nothing wrong with a computer controlled opponent.

Not many players are hardcore HA'ers like you, we just want to play for the fun of it, but some of us lack the skills of forming good people groups and when we try to look for some most of it is players looking for higher ranked characters. We didn't HA in the beggining, we don't have the experiance, and when the ranked players turn us down we have no options left.

That is why HA was brought down to 6 and that is why Heros were allowed in HA. To make grouping up easier. To provide guys/gals like us the opportunity to play in HA with another friend or two, or maybe just by ourselves if we can't find anyone.

You higher ranked guys with experiance want Heros out of HA? Then why don't you be the heros and take the time to take the inexperianced under your wing and show them the ropes than griping how HA Heroway noobs are wrecking your fun. You brought it on yourselves, well most of you did. I'm sure there are a few who do show kindness to new players, there just isn't enough of you though.

He is pretty much right. You want people to not heroway? Then let them on your team, and show them how to play the damn game. For over a year the people who "been playing Hero Ascent since the beginning" has done nothing but contribute to the horrible example of a pvp community we all knew as hero ascent. That same lot has been digging their own graves and have done so in ignorant bliss. Instead of being leaders and showing the new and the just coming how to play, they insisted on ignoring them or better yet making them feel like they shouldn't even be in the same district as the "elites". Now the graves have been dug to the deepest it could possible go and with the grave diggers looking up wondering how they got down. :wave:

Inner Salbat
07-11-2006, 03:34
He is pretty much right. You want people to not heroway? Then let them on your team, and show them how to play the damn game. For over a year the people who "been playing Hero Ascent since the beginning" has done nothing but contribute to the horrible example of a pvp community we all knew as hero ascent. That same lot has been digging their own graves and have done so in ignorant bliss. Instead of being leaders and showing the new and the just coming how to play, they insisted on ignoring them or better yet making them feel like they shouldn't even be in the same district as the "elites". Now the graves have been dug to the deepest it could possible go and with the grave diggers looking up wondering how they got down. :wave:

While partly agree with you, on the basis that I didn't play HA for 12 months because of the 'elitism', I can't full agree with you because of a few reasons, first being that my guild does HA now that it is easier to get people from the guild to play now that's it's 6v6, secondly having HA as players only pretty much forces guilds / people to play together, forming communities as it stands now no one has to give a flying toss about there guild members to play HA or GvG, which further disintegrates with what we have now with heros.

Yes they dug there own grave I'll give you that, but in ANY system you will find, the weak separated from the strong, the reason is simple 'elitists' want to win, they want to win because that is there goal, it's not based on how much faction they are acquire or fame for that matter, they purely and too some degree as we've seen selfishly want to win at all costs, because that's the 'fun' factor for them.

The problem is 'new' players want to also win as well, unfortunately they cannot win with the system that was before, because that required lots of trail and error of getting into groups, now of course they can but at the cost of the elitist.

But you are in case and point also very wrong, AI has many have pointed out is not "human" it may have actions by proxy given by a human, but that in no means detracts from the fact that it is at the end of the day, not a human but an AI on a server, which has 0 lag time and will do the same thing over and over WITHOUT fail giving absolutely no chance for a come back from the other side what so ever, in a since what they've done is put "GODLIKE" bots into PvP under the right skilled hands "of course", and that just isn't right!

I really don't care what argument you use, it's the same a the slots debate in some ways, you will never convince a PvP player that because there is 1 or 2 humans on the other team that his bots are players, so give it up it isn't going to happen, with the advent of BOTS in HA/GvG there is NO PvP ANYMORE! PERIOD. This game can now be considered, PvE from start to finish for the exclusion of really crappy areas, like AB/TA & RA.

DoomFrost
07-11-2006, 04:34
But you are in case and point also very wrong, AI has many have pointed out is not "human" it may have actions by proxy given by a human, but that in no means detracts from the fact that it is at the end of the day, not a human but an AI on a server, which has 0 lag time and will do the same thing over and over WITHOUT fail giving absolutely no chance for a come back from the other side what so ever, in a since what they've done is put "GODLIKE" bots into PvP under the right skilled hands "of course", and that just isn't right!

Godlike in interrupts and attacking the same target but that's about it. Godlike in everything else? No.


I really don't care what argument you use, it's the same a the slots debate in some ways, you will never convince a PvP player that because there is 1 or 2 humans on the other team that his bots are players, so give it up it isn't going to happen, with the advent of BOTS in HA/GvG there is NO PvP ANYMORE! PERIOD. This game can now be considered, PvE from start to finish for the exclusion of really crappy areas, like AB/TA & RA.

No one is saying bots are players. And I'll say this one more time. When 2 or more players are involved in a game against each other it still is PvP. Player vs Player when one human fights against another human, regardless of what other elements they have on their team. If a player can successfully micro-manage his heros with another player then so what? Your still fighting him arn't you?

ImSoToast
07-11-2006, 05:05
No actually now it turns into a game that basically the best multitasker can do bettter, arguebly at least, than a team of humans.....why? Because of simple timing. See the one guy controling, mind you some1 good at multitasking or basically any1 good at rts games like warcraft and such, has the advantage of pure control. He can tell his heroes to use what skills when and control the timing of these skills. Really why are heroes allowed in Ha and gvg but not any other form of pvp?

Crap at least before bringing henchies was a handicap by far, now it really isn't. Since I have soo much control of my heroe why waste my time meeting some1 and "teaching" or showing them how to play Ha when teh heroes know it. Not only do the heroes know how to play Ha but I can tell them what build they HAVE to use. Guess what? They don't argue, or criticize my build, they simply execute it. I'll say it again, if heroes are no problem in Ha they should be allowed in Ta and Ab also, simply in ab and ta have heroes replace human players. Is the problem that anet doesn't want ab and ta to turn into henchways thus defeating the purpose of heroe arena, but why teh hate for Ha??

Inner Salbat
07-11-2006, 05:33
No one is saying bots are players. And I'll say this one more time. When 2 or more players are involved in a game against each other it still is PvP. Player vs Player when one human fights against another human, regardless of what other elements they have on their team. If a player can successfully micro-manage his heros with another player then so what? Your still fighting him arn't you?

Highlighted in bold is something a hardcore PvP player will disagree with to his death bed and beyond, PvP is and always will be Players Vs Players and not, Players Vs AI Vs Players, and until you understand this simplistic fact we will forever be and logger headers with each other.

DoomFrost
07-11-2006, 07:03
Highlighted in bold is something a hardcore PvP player will disagree with to his death bed and beyond, PvP is and always will be Players Vs Players and not, Players Vs AI Vs Players, and until you understand this simplistic fact we will forever be and logger headers with each other.

I already understand, you don't like it because new guys get heros and in the past you didn't. They have an easier time creating a team and getting a better chance on getting fame and rank. When in the past those 8 vs 8's took hours to get the team right and sometimes you'd still lose. You just simply don't like it.

Inner Salbat
07-11-2006, 07:10
I already understand, you don't like it because new guys get heros and in the past you didn't. They have an easier time creating a team and getting a better chance on getting fame and rank. When in the past those 8 vs 8's took hours to get the team right and sometimes you'd still lose. You just simply don't like it.

No that's not entirely true, while yes in my guild [ANZ] I've prohibited the mass usage of it outright, e.g use it if you like, but don't go doing it all the time because it is ---.

I understand the need for them in HA I really do, and there is a part of me that is laughing at the elitist scum that I hated having to deal with this problem.

It's not simply that I don't like it, if hero's had be *new* type of "HUMAN" player then I would have a problem with it, it's not that I hate hero's per-say it's that they have no place in PvP.

DoomFrost
07-11-2006, 07:52
*snip*

I don't like it either, but until the veterans start helping remedy the problem we are just going to accept it as it is. I fully understand that they arn't human and are just code doing the job it was designed to do.

I also agree that they shouldn't be used all the time. They are there to provide a replacement if:

A: The team needs something in particular but can't find it.
B: If there are two people who want to HA but don't have the time to sit and spam it.

And i'm sure there are plenty of other reasons as well.

To put it this way Heros can be both a blessing and a curse. Anyways I'm done posting anything else. My opinions are stated. Thanks for reading.

Parker Bsb
07-11-2006, 13:18
This thread has gotten completley out of hand. PM me with a good argument as to why it be re-opened if you can come up with one.